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Speaker 1: Summer is upon us and many people turn their thoughts

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Speaker 1: to vacation, specifically cruises. But before you answer that port call,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to this. It

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Speaker 1: is a story, a cautionary tell. Marian Carver, gorgeous young

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Speaker 1: mom of a little girl, goes through a getaway aboard

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Speaker 1: an Alaska, a Royal Caribbean cruise on the Mercury, and

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Speaker 1: she's never seen alive again. First of all, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at crime Watch Delhi. Marian Carver

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Speaker 1: was a former investment banker from Cambridge, Massachusetts. She was

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Speaker 1: divorced and her thirteen year old daughter was spending the

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Speaker 1: summer with her ex husband in England when she decided

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Speaker 1: to take cruise to Alaska. Marian was a serious person

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Speaker 1: in her short lifetime. She was very successful. Her parents

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Speaker 1: didn't even know she was on a cruise that faithful

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Speaker 1: August in two thousand and four until they got a

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Speaker 1: frantic call from Marian's daughter, who hadn't heard from her

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Speaker 1: in a week. When they couldn't reach her, they filed

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Speaker 1: a missing person's report in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where she lived.

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Speaker 1: The Cambridge police lowcuted a credit card transaction which assured

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Speaker 1: the airplane ticket going to Seattle, the cruise ticket and

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Speaker 1: the return fleet. Marian never made the flight home. Clearly

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Speaker 1: a last minute decision to jump on this gorgeous cruise

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Speaker 1: line with Royal Caribbean and take off her daughter spending

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Speaker 1: the summer with dad in England, so why not? But

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Speaker 1: she's never seen again? With me an all star panel

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know about Mom Marian

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Speaker 1: Carver's disappearance. Michael Winkleman maritime lawyer, and he is a

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Speaker 1: practicing lawyer at Lipkin, Margulis and Winkleman a real expert

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Speaker 1: not only on maritime law but cruise ship law, and

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Speaker 1: you can find him at lipcoon dot com and on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Cruise Ship Law. Karen Stark, renowned psychologists joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Manhattan, and you can find her at

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark dot com. That's Karen with a CE. Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: director of the Coldcase Research Institute, forensics expert, and you

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Speaker 1: can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. J H. Moncreeve,

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Speaker 1: true crime documentarian of Cruise Ship Killers, also author of

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Speaker 1: Dragonfly Summer. She's especially familiar with this case. Jamie Barnett

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Speaker 1: joining US Jamie the President of International Cruise Victims ICEV

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Speaker 1: at International Cruise Victims dot org. Straight to you, JH. H. Moncrief.

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Speaker 1: It's my understanding that her thirteen year old daughter, while

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Speaker 1: at her dad's home, had been calling mom and speaking

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Speaker 1: to her practically every day. So she doesn't hear from

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Speaker 1: mom for a week. That really is what sounded the alarm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately, because the cruise ship didn't alert the family,

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Speaker 1: they didn't even have any idea that they'd gone on

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Speaker 1: a cruise. She hadn't told her daughter or her father,

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Speaker 1: so they really had no idea until her father reported

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Speaker 1: her missing and they started going through the credit card statements.

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Speaker 1: That's how they found out that she'd been on a cruise.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise they never would have known. And Karen Starr, she

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Speaker 1: probably thought of it as a lark because she didn't

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Speaker 1: have the daughter to take care of. The daughter was

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Speaker 1: away with dad in England, and she is a beautiful,

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Speaker 1: redheaded poet and investment banker. That's quite the dichotomy. But

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Speaker 1: she suddenly was free and I think on a law

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Speaker 1: decided to go on this cruise, so didn't tell anybody,

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Speaker 1: and it seemed like she had a history in doing that.

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Speaker 1: Nancy that it wasn't the first time that she would

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Speaker 1: just go off and spend some time. It was something

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Speaker 1: that she liked to do and understandable with her daughter

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Speaker 1: being away right her, so she wanted some time to herself.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, you know, Karen, Ever since I've

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Speaker 1: had the twins, I don't want any time to myself.

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Speaker 1: I really want to be with them, but there are

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Speaker 1: times when we are forced apart, when they go for

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Speaker 1: a spend the night, or they go for a visit.

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Speaker 1: Somehow I feel that Marian Carver has somehow been judged

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Speaker 1: for her decision to go solo on a cruise. When

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Speaker 1: you said this is something she had done before, it

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Speaker 1: almost sounds like it's a bad thing. So and I

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Speaker 1: don't like the way that it's been made to sound

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Speaker 1: like she goes on a cruise without telling anybody. I mean,

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Speaker 1: as far I know, women still have the right to

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Speaker 1: vote and we can move about freely. But some how

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Speaker 1: women are I don't know, somehow scorned when they decide

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Speaker 1: to go on a girl's trip or they go off

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Speaker 1: on their own. Have you noticed it's the same thing

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Speaker 1: when women joggers are attacked she was jogging in a

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Speaker 1: jogging brawl, or she had all shorts. Of course she did.

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Speaker 1: She's out in the elements and the sun running. I

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Speaker 1: just feel that women get judged no matter what they do. No,

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt that women get judged. We know that.

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Speaker 1: We know that all the time because we hear about

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Speaker 1: how people dress. But I mean, have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of a guy care and start going, oh he went

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Speaker 1: on a trip by himself. Well, and we never brought

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Speaker 1: it up. Is because this is a very independent woman

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Speaker 1: and it seems as though she did do this and

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Speaker 1: it was something that she liked to do to be

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Speaker 1: able to spend time. Not all mothers are with their children.

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Speaker 1: Twenty four seven. She's divorced and her daughter was with

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Speaker 1: her X in England, so a perfect opportunity for her

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Speaker 1: to just take some time and go up. You know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't accept it. I don't like it, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: But I accept it, and as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I recognize it and talk about it in depth and

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Speaker 1: don't be a victim when it comes to all of

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Speaker 1: the travel or whether you're going on a cruise and

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Speaker 1: r you're camping, you're going out of the country. You're

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Speaker 1: in a hotel. Women are victimized more than men do.

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Speaker 1: I like it, no, Is it true? Yes? So this

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Speaker 1: is something we have to think about. You have a

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Speaker 1: whole chapter on it, Nancy, And I'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: a big one. What she actually did was smart if

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Speaker 1: you think about it from a safety standpoint. She was

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Speaker 1: not going to have to check in and out of

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Speaker 1: CD motels. She was not going to have to travel

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Speaker 1: alone by car or plane. She was not going to

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Speaker 1: have to go in and out a restaurant for bars alone.

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Speaker 1: She was in one place with one steward. You know,

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Speaker 1: she thought probably she was doing the safest, most responsible

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Speaker 1: thing to travel so low you know, you're right, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, maybe we need a shrink to weigh

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Speaker 1: on this. Weigh in on this. But let me go

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Speaker 1: to maritime lawyer. He's a cruise ship law expert. And

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Speaker 1: maritime law is a whole another animal. It's like if

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Speaker 1: you want to have open heart surgery, you don't go

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Speaker 1: to a podiatrist a foot doctor. Same thing here. Maritime

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Speaker 1: law like criminal law, contracts, it's its own entity. It's

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Speaker 1: very very complex. But Michael Winkelman joining me maritime lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I think that when people get on a cruise ship

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Speaker 1: they feel safer than when they, let's just say, go

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Speaker 1: to another country or another city they've never been to

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Speaker 1: and they're walking up and down the streets. You're kind

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Speaker 1: of lulled into a sense of complacency on a cruise ship.

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Speaker 1: Have you noticed that about cruise ship victims all the time, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: People have this bizarre false sense of security. They think

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Speaker 1: they're in this safe bubble on a cruise ship, when

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Speaker 1: in reality there's a lot of factors that really make

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Speaker 1: it the opposite. The tremendous over service of alcohol that

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Speaker 1: people indulge in, I think rightly so, because they don't

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Speaker 1: have to drive anywhere. But I think one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest parts of it, Nancy, is that there's no true

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Speaker 1: independent law enforcement there. There's just higher private security guards

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Speaker 1: that are basically shills for the company. So if and

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Speaker 1: when something bad happens, you have this terrible situation where

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Speaker 1: there's going to be no real independent law enforcement investigating

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Speaker 1: or helping you. If you're on the high seat, that

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Speaker 1: could be dates. So I think because of that, there's

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Speaker 1: a really unique essence to cruising that when people let

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Speaker 1: their guard down. They're really putting themselves in danger. And

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Speaker 1: that's why one of the things I always say is, hey,

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Speaker 1: don't leave your common sense at the ports. Keep an

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Speaker 1: eye on yourself, keep an eye on your kids, keep

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Speaker 1: yourself in safe situation. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, What

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Speaker 1: happened to this gorgeous young redhead, this mom of a

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Speaker 1: little girl spending this summer with dad in England? Marion

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Speaker 1: Carver And you just heard Michael Winkelman, maritime lawyer cruise

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Speaker 1: ship specialists, say something really interesting. And all of us one, two, three, four,

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Speaker 1: all five of us have discussed before. Guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: on sleuthing mysteries on TV or movies, very often you'll

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Speaker 1: see a murder stage on the high seas. Why because,

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Speaker 1: just like Winkleman just said, there's not any real police.

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Speaker 1: You have a cruise ship employee. And I'm not knocking

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Speaker 1: the cruise ships because i love Disney cruises and I've

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Speaker 1: taken my children on su several of them and we've

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Speaker 1: loved it. But there's a reason those mysteries are set

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Speaker 1: that way. It's arn't imitating life. Because j H. Moncrave,

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Speaker 1: the documentarian of Cruise Ship Killers, there is no police,

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Speaker 1: there is no medical examiner. They're not on the high season.

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Speaker 1: You may be days away from anchoring somewhere. Yeah, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I've actually seen it referred to as the wild West

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Speaker 1: of the Sea because there is there is no law

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Speaker 1: like we'd expect. Whatever flagged the cruise ship is sailing under,

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Speaker 1: those are the laws they're governed by, whether it's Granada

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Speaker 1: or some obscure country that the people going on the

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Speaker 1: cruise ship might not even have heard of. So the

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Speaker 1: laws are very different before these new I believe Ken

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Speaker 1: Carver was able to pass the new bill or help

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Speaker 1: pass the new bill, But before that they didn't even

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Speaker 1: have to alert the FBI if a crime had happened

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Speaker 1: on American waters. So wow, Yeah, is that true, Jamie Burnett,

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Speaker 1: President CV International Cruise Victims. That is true. Um, it

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Speaker 1: absolutely is UM And that was a wonderful thing that

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Speaker 1: that law passed in two thousand and ten. Cruise Vessels

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Speaker 1: Safety and Security Act was the first of its kind

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Speaker 1: that really was able to UM improve security and safety

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Speaker 1: for passengers on cruise ships. UM. It was something that

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Speaker 1: he was devoted to and dedicated to and his organization

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Speaker 1: carried on that work even now, still trying to improve

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Speaker 1: on what we have So happened happened to the beautiful CWD.

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Speaker 1: The cruise line confirms she was on the ship, but

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Speaker 1: they didn't notify family or contact law enforcement when she

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Speaker 1: went missing. Marian would have vanished in thin air if

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Speaker 1: we'd waited for the cruise lines to contact us on

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Speaker 1: from the beginning that Marian was missing, and yet stonewallis

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Speaker 1: In contacted the FBI until a week after we finally

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Speaker 1: contacted them. The Carvers searched for ten months, hunting down clues,

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Speaker 1: even hiring international investigators and attorneys like they spend seventy

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars trying to find out what happened to

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Speaker 1: their daughter. The first question we asked when we realized

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Speaker 1: Marian was nothing on the ship was their video, And

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Speaker 1: they kept saying there was a confinder on the tape.

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Speaker 1: First they said there wasn't old tap that arrested all

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Speaker 1: the tape was broke. The Carvers never received any security tapes,

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Speaker 1: just one blurry shot of Marian boarding the ship. Well,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, we've gone on Disney cruises. There

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Speaker 1: are video cameras everywhere. I noticed it when Lucy and

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Speaker 1: I were going on a walk all the way around.

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Speaker 1: They have them almost as like a jogging path all

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Speaker 1: the way around one of the decks, but at a

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Speaker 1: certain point on either end you're inclosed at the front

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Speaker 1: and the back of the ship. I noticed that it

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Speaker 1: was covered with not only emergency phones, but video cameras.

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Speaker 1: That's not all. How can we figure out her movements

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Speaker 1: before she disappeared? Listen to our friends at crime online

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Speaker 1: dot com. An investigation showed that Carver never used her

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Speaker 1: sea pass that is an onboard credit card which also

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Speaker 1: serves as identification. She never bought a drink on board,

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Speaker 1: and is not recorded as having left the ship on

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Speaker 1: any of its stops. The ship does not keep records

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Speaker 1: of passengers getting off at the final destination. She disappeared

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Speaker 1: somewhere on that ship and her body has never been

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Speaker 1: found either or it was taken off that ship or

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Speaker 1: thrown overboard. Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, Director of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute at Coldcasecrimes dot org.

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Speaker 1: So what does that tell you that her c pass

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Speaker 1: was never used? You know on the cruise. As I've

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Speaker 1: taken the twins on, they give you a bracelet that

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to wear all the time, like a little

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Speaker 1: plastic watch looking thing, and you just hold that up

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Speaker 1: as id And I guess that's what they're talking about,

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Speaker 1: accepting a card form, right, So what she would use

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Speaker 1: that card for is if she wanted to pay for

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Speaker 1: something extra that was not included, So she wanted an

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Speaker 1: alcoholic beverage, or she won an excursion. So what that

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Speaker 1: kills us is she didn't make a plan to do

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Speaker 1: something once they got to catch a can or sinka.

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Speaker 1: She didn't go to you know, ride with the sled

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Speaker 1: dogs or you know, look at the you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the activities that they had on land, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: They have no record of her leaving ship at all

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Speaker 1: or re entering. You know, I'm thinking about her being

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Speaker 1: a poet Cheryl McCollum, and I may be projecting, but

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Speaker 1: I have a little niece and that is a poet,

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Speaker 1: and she's published. She's wonderful, and she will go on

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Speaker 1: I think they call them fellowships or and they take

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Speaker 1: you out of your environment where you live. So it's

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Speaker 1: like a sabbatical. I guess for professors, it rejuvenates your creativity.

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Speaker 1: You're out of your rut, so to speak, and it

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Speaker 1: ignites your writing. So I'm just wondering if that's the

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Speaker 1: reason she didn't plan a trip to go dog sledding

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Speaker 1: or to see a glacier because she was focusing on

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Speaker 1: a getaway where she could look out her window and

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Speaker 1: see the ocean and work on her poetry. I think

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Speaker 1: that's entirely possible. Plus, Cheryl, this was a spur of

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Speaker 1: them of a decision. She didn't have her daughter, she

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Speaker 1: could take time off, and she took off on this curse.

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Speaker 1: She didn't even talk to anybody about It was the

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Speaker 1: last minute purchase on her credit card. She barely packed

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Speaker 1: a thing and took off. So given that scenario, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised she didn't plan to, you know, go

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Speaker 1: what do you say, ziplining somewhere on a short excursion. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you're making an excellent point. But again, it

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Speaker 1: seems like she would have gone in and out of

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Speaker 1: her room because up on the Lido deck you can

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Speaker 1: see whale, you can see puffin, you can see all

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Speaker 1: of these incredible animals, eagles, seals. It seems like she

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Speaker 1: would have still gone in and out of her room

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Speaker 1: at nauseam to experience just things on board. Well, you're

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Speaker 1: right about that, and I'm wondering about that sea pass.

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Speaker 1: Does it open and shut your door as well or

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Speaker 1: is it just for things that you have to buy?

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Speaker 1: But you would have a record of her entering her

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Speaker 1: room because it's still going to be electronic. She never

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Speaker 1: left that. Yeah, you're right, guys, take a listen. I

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Speaker 1: find this very very telling. This is Matt Durannic Crime

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Speaker 1: Watch Daily. Private investigators eventually learned the last activity on

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Speaker 1: her shipboard account was for room service the second night

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Speaker 1: of the cruise. The steward reported Marian missing two days

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Speaker 1: into the cruise and says she wasn't using her room

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Speaker 1: and kept reporting her daily. When the Carver's investigators finally

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Speaker 1: tracked him down, the cabin steward revealed that on the

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Speaker 1: final day of the cruise, after all passengers had left

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Speaker 1: the ship, he was told to pack up Marian's belongings

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Speaker 1: and take her handbag and put it in storage. It

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Speaker 1: would have been so easy for the cruise lines to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's the steward doctor, and I want to do that.

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Speaker 1: I think you'll go away. Marian's phone asked Royal Caribbean

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Speaker 1: for her belongings to be returned, but never got those either.

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Speaker 1: We finally got an email saying that they took her items.

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Speaker 1: So we're in the room and disposed of crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the highly unusual disappearance of Marion Carver

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Speaker 1: and a young American mom who goes on a cruise

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Speaker 1: solo and has never seen alive again. Are you telling

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Speaker 1: me that the steward. A steward is a guy or

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Speaker 1: a woman that comes to your room on and off

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Speaker 1: all day and all night to check on your room

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Speaker 1: to see if you need anything, to kind of not

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Speaker 1: just clean your room up, but take care of you

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Speaker 1: and your family if you want to arrange something on land,

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Speaker 1: or if you want a special meal, or you want

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Speaker 1: to make a reservation. So the steward reported she had

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Speaker 1: not been a room since day two. Yeah, that's one

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Speaker 1: of the sad things about this case, man. See, one

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Speaker 1: of the many sad things is the stewart actually seemed

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Speaker 1: to really care about her. He reported her missing every

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Speaker 1: single day from the time he noticed she hadn't been

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Speaker 1: in a room and hadn't slept there and Finally, we

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Speaker 1: was just told by a supervisor to shut up and

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Speaker 1: do his job. So he actually really tried. The steward

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Speaker 1: actually really tried to get help and raise an alert,

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Speaker 1: and he would just rebuff. You know, isn't it true

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Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCullum that the most critical hours after someone

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Speaker 1: is kidnapped are the very first hours where this steward

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Speaker 1: kept saying something's wrong. She hasn't come back to her room,

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Speaker 1: she's not in here, she's not using her key card.

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Speaker 1: Why are those first hours so critical, Cheryl? Is the

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Speaker 1: verse three. There's no doubt if somebody is going to

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Speaker 1: be murdered, those first three hours are the most critical

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Speaker 1: when someone goes missing. Here, what is so devastating to

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Speaker 1: me is not just for evidentiary value, but for what

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Speaker 1: her family would have gathered just because it belonged to her.

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Speaker 1: You think about what's in your pocket book. You've got pictures,

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Speaker 1: you've got keys, you've got maybe a work id. All

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Speaker 1: of these things are going to become sentimental, like with

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Speaker 1: your dad's idea from the railroad. You've cherished those things.

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Speaker 1: So for somebody to take it and just discard it,

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Speaker 1: that to me is sickening for that family. Take a

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Speaker 1: listener friends at Primetime Lost at Sea. He made this

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Speaker 1: videotape on the ship demonstrating the route from Marian's room

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Speaker 1: to the nearest deck where she could have gone overboard.

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Speaker 1: My report became, you know, kind of empty of content,

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Speaker 1: but full of questions, questions as to why I couldn't

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Speaker 1: interview these security manager for this camera system, of question

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Speaker 1: after question why to Michael A. Winkleman Maritime Law, your

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Speaker 1: cruise ship law specialist, you're hearing the voice of a

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Speaker 1: private investigator. The family has to really deplete their life

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Speaker 1: savings to hire an investigator to try to find out

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Speaker 1: what happened, and instead a fine namely thing you get stonewalled. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think, unfortunately that's relatively commonplace occurrence, and I think

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Speaker 1: that has to do with the fact that this happened

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Speaker 1: on a cruise ship. Did this happened in a hotel

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Speaker 1: or this happen on land, You would have FBI, law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: local regional, etc. That would be on the scene. But

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Speaker 1: because this happened on a cruise ship, you just can't

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Speaker 1: get on there without them giving you access. So there's

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Speaker 1: this gigantic information in balance between what the cruise line

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Speaker 1: knows and what the cruise line has versus what the

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Speaker 1: general public knows. Now, that's up an ideal with on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis. Our law firm has been doing it

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Speaker 1: for fifty years. I've been doing it for fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: so we're very well, you know, we know what to

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Speaker 1: do in order to get the information. What happened to

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Speaker 1: Marian happened about almost twenty years ago, so fortunately things

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Speaker 1: have changed. One of the big things is the fact

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Speaker 1: that the video cameras are everywhere. Nancy, in all the

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Speaker 1: cases that I have Farrow, probably about seventy five percent

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Speaker 1: of them have video footage of a fall, an assault,

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Speaker 1: things of that nature. So that really helps you put

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Speaker 1: together the pieces better. But the fact that you have

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Speaker 1: international crew members that are the crew members, it is

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Speaker 1: often very hard to find them. For years, you would

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Speaker 1: hear all these stories about if a crew member was

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Speaker 1: a cruise of a rape or a crime or a

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Speaker 1: sexual assault, before they were even turned over to the FBI,

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Speaker 1: they were sent back home to the Philippines or to

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Speaker 1: India or Indonesia and to never be found again. And

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Speaker 1: you have an element in this story. So this is

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Speaker 1: one of the big issues with one of the uniquenesses

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Speaker 1: of maritime while because you have so much of an

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Speaker 1: international nature to it, that definitely makes solving unsolved mysteries

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Speaker 1: like Marian's that much harder, which is still unsolved to

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Speaker 1: Jenny Morenette present International Cruise Victims ICV, and you can

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Speaker 1: find her at International Cruise Victims dot org. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem right. In the US, you and typically across the world,

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Speaker 1: you have a police force and you don't have to

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Speaker 1: pay them to investigate what happened to your loved one.

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Speaker 1: They're paid by taxes. Here, this family had to run

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Speaker 1: through their life savings for a private investigator to try

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Speaker 1: to find out what happened to Mary. And that's not right, No,

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Speaker 1: it is not. And there's such murky jurisdictional circumstances at

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Speaker 1: see with you know who's in charge of the investigation. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's say if you're an American and it's

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Speaker 1: the FBI, the FBI is not going to get on

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Speaker 1: that ship typically until it comes back to the United States. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of evidence is washed away, up,

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Speaker 1: trampled over, what have you. So then when the FBI

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Speaker 1: gets on the ship, they go, hey, we don't have

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Speaker 1: enough evidence to convict anybody or to you know, open

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Speaker 1: a case, and it's just gone, not at all like

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Speaker 1: it would be on land. You know. That's that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that is most alarming about a crimate

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Speaker 1: sea and Karen's Stark psychologist joining us out of Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: It puts the family in even more devastation. The little

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Speaker 1: girl loses her mother, the parents lose their daughter, and

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Speaker 1: in the midst of all this morning they're going to

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Speaker 1: have to run through everything they have saved for a

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Speaker 1: lifetime trying to find out is she still alive, where

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Speaker 1: is she and what happened? And I think about this

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Speaker 1: little girl, that's she will never have an answer about

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Speaker 1: what happened to her mom and the things that she

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Speaker 1: could imagine about did she lead me, did she love me?

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Speaker 1: And no, no kind of keepsake. As Cheryl said that

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Speaker 1: you have stuff from your dad, I have stuff from

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Speaker 1: my dad, and she's not going to be able to

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Speaker 1: have anything that reminds her of her mother, which is

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Speaker 1: something that most of us really treasure. Just thinking about

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Speaker 1: what you said, of course, I'm just a JD, not

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Speaker 1: an MD, not a shrink, but never knowing what happened

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Speaker 1: to your mother, never knowing is she dead or is

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Speaker 1: she alive? Did she just leave and leave me and

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00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: leave our family and maybe she's got a whole new

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Speaker 1: life in some exotic country. Those are the kind of

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Speaker 1: thoughts this little girl maybe having I on the other hand,

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00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: and having thoughts like did they just not preserve the

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Speaker 1: evidence or did they actually cover up evidence? Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at ABC's Prime Times. You kind

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Speaker 1: of a rather basic thing. If you put two thousand

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Speaker 1: people ownership, you ought to know of two thousand people

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Speaker 1: cut off the ship. They didn't know that. They couldn't

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Speaker 1: tell us. A Carver became more alarmed when they casually

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Speaker 1: explained that Marian stopped using her room after the second night,

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Speaker 1: and that her belongings remained in her cabin after everyone

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Speaker 1: else got off the ship. They got rubed, most of

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Speaker 1: her stuff, a goal wristlands, all of her clothes. We're

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Speaker 1: gone Vannies. In effect, Marian Vannis from the Earth Royal

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Speaker 1: Caribbean gave Marian's clothes to charity, and worst of all,

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Speaker 1: told no one she was unaccounted for, not the police,

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Speaker 1: not the family. She was gone and the purse in

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Speaker 1: her name, So scurity numbered and everything. They just put

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Speaker 1: it in stories, did nothing. That is amazing to me

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Speaker 1: that all of her belongings would be given to charity

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Speaker 1: and no one was ever notified, not the family, not

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Speaker 1: the police, climb store with Nancy Grace. For those of

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Speaker 1: you just joining us, you're hearing Marian Carver's dad say

428
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. You know, two thousand people got

429
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: on the ship. Shouldn't you make sure that two thousand

430
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: people get off the ship? I mean, it's this true

431
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: to JH. Moncrief, documentarian of cruise ship Killers and author

432
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: of Dragonfly Summer City of Ghosts, JH. There's no duty

433
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: for the cruise line to alert family that their family

434
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: member never made it off the cruise ship. There wasn't

435
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: definitely when Marion disappeared. And I'm also it's not just

436
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: about lots, also about morals. I'm wondering about like the

437
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: supervisor of the steward that gave him trouble for always

438
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: raising this. Apparently he asked for some of the belongings

439
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: to be brought to his room fairly early and putting

440
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: a storage locker, and when he was fired, he just

441
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: disappeared with them. So there was a Manila envelope which

442
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: we don't know what was in it, probably her writing,

443
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, and some money that she had that was

444
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: never recovered. So, even just from a moral stamdpoint, how

445
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: can you live with yourself knowing that you've at least

446
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: participated in some sort of cover of So at this point,

447
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCullum, director and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute,

448
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: how do you go about investigating a crime but all

449
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: the evidence has been lost or given a charity, and

450
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: possibly the perpetrator moved to another shape or another country. Naze.

451
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: This is so mind boggling to even try to start,

452
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, from this time of you know when this happened.

453
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: But here's the deal. You have got a crew line

454
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: that already lied to you as for that the minute

455
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: they told you that the tap taped over itself. After

456
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: three days and you find out no, in fact, it's

457
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: a month. Well, now you have to yourself, are they

458
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: part of it? Is this a bigger cover up? Are

459
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 1: they an accessory? After the fact? Did somebody do something

460
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: to her? Because you look at little things like she

461
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: bought a round trip ticket. Why would you do that

462
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: if you weren't going back home? There you know, she

463
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: had future plans. She was doing things because she enjoyed them,

464
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: not because anything pointed to her ending rome. There's no

465
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: evidence of that whatsoever. The only evidence is that she

466
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: was planning to come home. She had a return trip.

467
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: She was planning to see her daughter continue her work

468
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: as a poet and an investment banker. Now this was

469
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: on Alaskan Royal Caribbean Cruise line. But Michael A. Winkelman,

470
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: maritime lawyer, an expert in cruise ship law, isn't that

471
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: the same thing as celebrity weren't you telling me that before?

472
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: I sure was, Nancy. You know, Celebrity Cruises is just

473
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: a different brand within the Royal Cribbean umbrella, and that's

474
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: very common in the industry. Royal Cribbian has Celebrity ships,

475
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: will Caribbean ships, Regions seventies, and the same with Carnival.

476
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: Carnival has like ten brands underneath its umbrella. So it's

477
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: very common in the industry for their people. Okay, now

478
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Michael Winkleman, hold on, what did you

479
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: just say, start with their So essentially you'll have the

480
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: Royal Cribbian group, which they just renamed themselves and under

481
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: that umbrella, there's a handful of different cruise lines. You've

482
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: got Royal Cribbian Cruises, which are that gigantic ships. You've

483
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: got Celebrity Cruises, which are slightly smaller ships. You've got

484
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: Azamara Cruises, which is supposed to be more of like

485
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: adventure type cruises. And it's the exact same thing with

486
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: Carnival Corporation. They've got Carnival, They've got Princess, They've got

487
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: Holland America, they've got Seaborn. So that's nothing new in

488
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: the industry. Wow, did you know all of those crews? Okay,

489
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: I didn't know that, So I'm learning. And what that

490
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: says to me as a lawyer is there are more

491
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: layer you have to go through before you finally get

492
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: to the top or you finally get to the truth.

493
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: And speaking of the truth, I want you to take

494
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at A and E Cruise

495
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: Ship Nightmare Journeys. Ken Carver is founder of ICV International

496
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: Cruise Victims, a group of people who have been directly

497
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: affected by crime, accidents, and poor medical practices on cruise ships.

498
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Ken began the organization after his daughter Marian disappeared from

499
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: a Royal Caribbean cruise to Alaska under sworn deposition. Her

500
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: cabin steward said that for five days he reported her missing,

501
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: he was told to continue to make up her room.

502
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: They took her belongings at the end of the cruise,

503
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: and the steward said to his boss, what should we

504
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: do with the items in the room. He said, just

505
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: put them in a bay and put them in my locker,

506
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: at which point they got round of them. So her

507
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: items were put in a bag and put in a

508
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: locker and ultimately disappeared. Do I have that right? JH moncrief,

509
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: what more can you tell us? Yeah? You do. Sadly, Nancy,

510
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: It's really hard to fathom what was going through this

511
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: person's mind when he decided to give away her belongings.

512
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: Another thing we know is that she only apparently packed

513
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: one dress and one pair of shoes, so she had

514
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: very minimal items with her. She had no suitcases, she

515
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: only had two hand eggs. So this is what allowed

516
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: the cruise ship to say that, oh, she didn't plan

517
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: to ever return because she didn't pack that much, which

518
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: I find very ludicrous. It wasn't that long a cruise.

519
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: If she just did this spur of the moment, and

520
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: it hadn't put a lot of planning into it, just

521
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: decided the last minute to go. She wouldn't necessarily have

522
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: brought that much. I don't think that that really proves

523
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: anything as to her mindset. Now, I don't think that

524
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: proves anything as well. JH. As a matter of fact,

525
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, my family laughs at me a lot because

526
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: we'd go on trips and Lucy, my little girl, takes

527
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: his huge She's the smallest one. She weighs maybe one

528
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: hundred pounds. Wit soaking wit. She takes his huge bag.

529
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: Then my husband takes a regular bag, John David takes

530
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: a little Duffel bag. I put everything I'm carrying and

531
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: a backpack with my laptop on my back. That's it.

532
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: That's the whole thing. So this means nothing to me

533
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: that she packed so lightly. As a matter of fact, Cheryl,

534
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut seventeen, our friends at

535
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: lost at Primetime, Lost at Sea. All along the way

536
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: they've been lying to us, you know, and leading this

537
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: down path. And I said, it's comfortable to lose a

538
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: carter damning with the cover up. Carver says, these Royal

539
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: Caribbean documents are evidence of a cover up. This shows

540
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: the company taking great pains to make sure that Domingo

541
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: did not speak with anybody in this memo. Royal Caribbean

542
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: checks with fourteen different employees to make sure Domingo hasn't

543
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: spoken to outside sources. We showed the document to Royal

544
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: Caribbean's attorney, Jeffrey Maltzman. He says it's no big deal,

545
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: so chery will call again. Alaskan and Royal Caribbean Cruise

546
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: Line denies any and all wrongdoing. But if you're listening

547
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: to what the father says, Marian's father, not only was

548
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: evidence lost, it was covered up. How are you going

549
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: to ever put that together again? It's like humpty dumpty.

550
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: The first time they lied, they did something wrong. When

551
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: they got rid of her belongings, they did something wrong.

552
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: They knew there was going to be no connection between

553
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: them and the last movement of this young lady. They

554
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: knew it. There's no video except her entering the ship.

555
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: There's no other video of her one down the hallway,

556
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: for going to the deck to observe the views, or exiting.

557
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: They don't have any of that. They don't have herself

558
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: where maybe she wrote something down or they said she

559
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: left a generous tip. I mean she was clearly involved

560
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: in talking to this steward and enjoying his company, and

561
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: he knew you know that she didn't want to go

562
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: to the cafeteria or the Studdenhall whatnot. So to me,

563
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: there are factors here that they not just ignored, but

564
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: they purposely got rid of so that DOT could not

565
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: be connected to jash Moncrief. Where does the case stand now? Unfortunately,

566
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: there are no answers in this case. There were remains

567
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: that washed up in Canada and for a time it

568
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: was believed it might be Merriam, but that's never been confirmed.

569
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: So as of now, we really still have no answers

570
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: about what happened to her. And I can't even imagine

571
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: what this has been like for her family, what was

572
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: like for her father before he passed away with the

573
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: light for her daughter, it's heartbreaking. Before you leave this

574
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: summer on a cruise, I implore you go to International

575
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: Cruise Victims Dot Org. We wait as justice and fols

576
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime story signing off goodbye friend,