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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I M

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking cashing out to build wealth

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Speaker 1: on your own terms with Julian and Kirsten Saunders. That's right,

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Speaker 1: our friends Julian and Kirston Saunders are joining us on

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Speaker 1: the podcast today. They started their site Rich and Regular

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Speaker 1: back in after they threw themselves into the financial independence movement.

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Speaker 1: That's when they pay it off two thousand dollars in debts,

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Speaker 1: and they've, you know, at this point, they've been featured

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Speaker 1: virtually everywhere at the Times, The Atlantic, Bloomberg. They're successful speakers,

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Speaker 1: they're you know, they've created a fantastic YouTube series called

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Speaker 1: Money on the Table, and now they are about to

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Speaker 1: be published authors. Their book cashing Out When the Wealth

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Speaker 1: Game by Walking Away actually comes out next week. And

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Speaker 1: in the book they write about creating your own career

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Speaker 1: path to talk about making peace with your finances and

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Speaker 1: building wealth on your own terms. And so we're excited

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Speaker 1: to talk about all of that and more today. Thank

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Speaker 1: you all for joining us today. Friends, Thank you, we're

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Speaker 1: excited to be back. It's been a while, yeah it has.

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Speaker 1: We have not had many repeat yet, but it's what

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Speaker 1: we also don't really have guests all that frequently. But

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Speaker 1: of course we saw our our our good pals right

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Speaker 1: up the street from us, Julia Kerson coming out with

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Speaker 1: the book. We definitely got to talk to y'all again.

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Speaker 1: And of course you guys were on the show about

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Speaker 1: three years ago, episode eighty six, So long ago, a

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Speaker 1: long time ago. We were different people back then, pretty pandemic.

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Speaker 1: We've all changed, I think a lot, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear now. I think Kurston, last time

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Speaker 1: you said that your craft beer equivalent was a good

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Speaker 1: bottle of wine. But yeah, what what now? What do

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Speaker 1: y'all consider as like something you're willing to suplore John

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Speaker 1: while you're saving and investing for the future. Yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: I think my splurge is have a membership to a

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Speaker 1: sauna studio. So basically, I pay somebody to let me

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Speaker 1: sit in a hot box and sweat. It feels so nice,

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Speaker 1: And so I would say that it's not a splurred

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Speaker 1: because it's super expensive, but it's a splurred because it's

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Speaker 1: kind of weird. And yeah, the first person I've met

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Speaker 1: doing that, but I know that sell sana is at Costco.

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Speaker 1: By the way, one, like in your house. You can.

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Speaker 1: I am obsessed three thousand dollars. You can have one

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Speaker 1: in your garage tomorrow. They're on my wish list on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: so Amazon is always like, hey, it's on sale, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know where I put it, Like, that's okay

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Speaker 1: on the roof, well billion, build you out a new

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Speaker 1: new little space for the sauna. Got a health and

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Speaker 1: wellness center, Saunders Retreat. That's right. What about you, Julian?

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Speaker 1: Have things changed for you? Because I think I remember

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Speaker 1: yours being one of those fancy It wasn't a Green Egg,

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Speaker 1: it was one of those other fancy grills. Or yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got Tomado Joe, which is still rocking that. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I still rock with my Comato jump Team Tomato all day. Um.

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Speaker 1: I will say what I've been splurging on is just

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Speaker 1: like content, right, So I just splurged. It's not that

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Speaker 1: much of a splurge. But considering that our free alternatives.

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Speaker 1: I just bought Luminary, which is like a private podcast network,

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Speaker 1: which I just really really enjoyed. Um, there's just something

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Speaker 1: too high quality, thoughtful, high produced content that I really

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Speaker 1: really appreciate. If that doesn't qualify for your game. Then

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Speaker 1: I would say, no, I I go to a boogie.

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Speaker 1: When I do decide to get a haircut, I go

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Speaker 1: to one of those boogie appointment only barbershops where you

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Speaker 1: get a haircut and like you can even get your

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Speaker 1: hand dipped. I've never got my hand dipped, but I

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Speaker 1: get like a I don't even know what that means,

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Speaker 1: like in wax or something. Yeah, it's like they dip

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Speaker 1: it in wax for some weird I don't know what

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Speaker 1: happens or what that does. Probably something to do with

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Speaker 1: my cuticles. But it's a very bougie situation. I show

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Speaker 1: up and they asked me if I want like a

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Speaker 1: bear something like, it's pretty cool. Oh, that's the kind

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Speaker 1: of that's where I need to go. Like you can

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Speaker 1: hang on to the handwax, although I haven't heard about that.

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Speaker 1: It's nice and warm, right like Watson the moisture and

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Speaker 1: that whole thing like a head massage. I oh my gosh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm doing life for on right now talking

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Speaker 1: to y'all. Generally speaking, I'm already relaxed just hearing about

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Speaker 1: the things that y'all do. Well, thank you for sharing that.

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Speaker 1: And it is interesting to think through how just our

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Speaker 1: priorities change over time. And that's true with the things

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Speaker 1: that we you know, that we treat ourselves too. But

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Speaker 1: let's dive in, and lets let's dive into the book specifically,

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Speaker 1: what was the inspiration to write this book, um, and

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Speaker 1: specifically to the significance of the name cashing Out. We

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Speaker 1: would love to kind of hear you talk about the

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Speaker 1: book before we kind of dive into the book. It's

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Speaker 1: got a nice RNK to it. Thank you. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think the inspiration there's several, but the one that I,

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Speaker 1: you know, think about probably the most is, you know,

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Speaker 1: I first found this movement, and I just remember being

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Speaker 1: so frustrated by not being able to share that excitement

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Speaker 1: with the people that I knew and loved. I would

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Speaker 1: find podcasts like yours and others and blogs and all

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Speaker 1: these things, and I would just be like, man, this

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Speaker 1: is life changing stuff. And I'd go to share it

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Speaker 1: with like friends and family and co workers, and they

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Speaker 1: just did not share the same excitement as I did.

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Speaker 1: And it was largely because they just did not identify

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Speaker 1: with the people who were centered in some of those stories.

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Speaker 1: In some cases, it didn't identify with the people that

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Speaker 1: were that were sharing the stories or sort of teaching

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Speaker 1: some of this information. And I realized, quite honestly, like

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Speaker 1: my privilege right as someone who grew up in Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: but spent the second half of my life in New York,

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Speaker 1: as someone who's had a privilege of traveling internationally and

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Speaker 1: being able to uh, sort of straddle multiple offenses, and

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Speaker 1: even went through a period of considering myself a global citizen, like,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier for me to blend in without

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Speaker 1: losing a sense of identity. Uh. And I think as

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Speaker 1: I started to think about that in my own experience,

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Speaker 1: it was easier for me to grab on and latch

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Speaker 1: onto some of these messages. And so I just didn't

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Speaker 1: want our community to miss out on it because they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the experiences that I did. Uh. And rather

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Speaker 1: than force or or complain right about other people's platforms

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Speaker 1: who may not necessarily do everything possible to reach out

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Speaker 1: to African Americans, I was like, well, that's that's that's

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Speaker 1: my job, right, That's something that I think I can

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Speaker 1: do um as a creative, as a writer, as someone

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Speaker 1: who has the means to step out and kind of

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Speaker 1: take on creative work without really needing it to make

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Speaker 1: money immediately. Um. You know, we took it upon ourselves

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Speaker 1: as a challenge. And so when we start thinking about

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Speaker 1: one of the absolute most powerful ways that we could

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Speaker 1: contribute to the culture, um, it's to write a book, right.

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Speaker 1: And one of the other things, just with respect to

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Speaker 1: the title cashing out, is also realizing that people just

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Speaker 1: didn't really identify you know, that stubborn r E on

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Speaker 1: the end of fire really kind of happened the way

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Speaker 1: and so it was really just a matter of kind

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Speaker 1: of taking the parts of the idea that we thought

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Speaker 1: resonated the most with our community, giving it a different

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Speaker 1: use case, and say, hey, this is something that is

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Speaker 1: relevant for you. We're not going to call that. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna strip away all the parts that you don't like,

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Speaker 1: give you a different use case grounded in some data,

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Speaker 1: grounded in narrative and in characters, um, and in lives

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Speaker 1: that you actually do identify with, and make this relevant

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Speaker 1: for you. And so that's really where the motivation for

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Speaker 1: the book and the term cashing out came to be. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like the r E is kind of part

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Speaker 1: of the financial independence movement. I totally get behind. And

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Speaker 1: then the r e kind of loses me to a

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Speaker 1: certain extent. And I think so, especially early on in

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Speaker 1: the movement, there was a lot of uh, a lot

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Speaker 1: of intention intentionality placed on those last two letters. It

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Speaker 1: was kind of running away from something as opposed to

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Speaker 1: running to something, and that's what kind of lost me

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Speaker 1: at least. But let's talk about your particular story, because

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Speaker 1: you know, y'all have paid off like a significant chunk

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Speaker 1: of debt, You've become sophisticated investors, You've built a business

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Speaker 1: that's helping tons of folks. You're you're like standing in

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Speaker 1: the gap. Really like what I heard you say, they're

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Speaker 1: julius that y'all are feeling a void, that there was

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Speaker 1: people like you, your voices were needed out there. And

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Speaker 1: but but you also say that you were living the

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Speaker 1: Black American dream, but that you were naive. That's what

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Speaker 1: you say in your book. So I'm curious, like, what

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Speaker 1: were you naive to? What did that look like? I

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Speaker 1: think we were naive to how far meritocracy would take

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Speaker 1: us so far. We had climbed up the ladder, we

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Speaker 1: had done all the right things, gone to school, got

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Speaker 1: the job, got you know, the accomplishments that we were

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Speaker 1: supposed to get, and I think we assumed naively that

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Speaker 1: that would continue for the rest of our lives. And

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Speaker 1: there became a point where we realized that the wage

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Speaker 1: gap was growing more severe. We were passed up for

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Speaker 1: promotions that we thought that we knew we were qualified

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Speaker 1: for and that we and many times deserved because we

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Speaker 1: were already doing the work. We started to encounter that

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Speaker 1: olunges that come with aging parents who are underprepared for retirement,

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Speaker 1: and so as we started to think about all of

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Speaker 1: the hurdles that we would need to face, we realized

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Speaker 1: that the path to just keep working a job for

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Speaker 1: forty years, expecting to get reasonable raises and promotions to

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Speaker 1: keep up with the cost of living was just not

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Speaker 1: as reliable of a strategy for for us as it

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Speaker 1: was for some of our peers. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: kind of what you're handing up in your book. You

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Speaker 1: say that the math is simple, but black life isn't,

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Speaker 1: and so you kind of you're enumerating some of those points.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: what you mean by that. Yeah, So, I think one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest examples, and again this really comes out

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Speaker 1: of having and being willing to have uncomfortable conversations. And

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Speaker 1: if there's one thing I am have mastered over the years,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind enforcing that issue at the worst time.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, let's go out for cocktails tonight. It's

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Speaker 1: like yeah, And then we get there and I was like,

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Speaker 1: have you heard of this thing called the Sandwich generation?

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Speaker 1: You know? And it's like, it's a huge issue for us, right,

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Speaker 1: And so the Sandwich generation, this idea that there are

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Speaker 1: people who are financially responsible for supporting both children and

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Speaker 1: aging parents, is something that if you're if you're relatively

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Speaker 1: familiar with personal finance in in that world, maybe you've

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Speaker 1: come across that term. But when you start to look

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Speaker 1: at some of these things through a racial lens, one

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Speaker 1: of the things we realize is that while that may

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Speaker 1: be an issue for a wide broad set of people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think for black people specifically, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a really, really big challenge because what it really means

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Speaker 1: is that because your parents, more often than not, will

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Speaker 1: be significantly less prepared for their own retirements, you're going

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Speaker 1: to be financially responsible for supporting them much sooner than

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Speaker 1: you anticipated. Right. And so when we start talking about

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Speaker 1: how complex black life is it's, well, well, how do

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Speaker 1: we solve for that? Um? How do we also reconcile

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Speaker 1: the fact that like I here, I am like as

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Speaker 1: the first person that you know, maybe made it to

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Speaker 1: college and is getting a good job. Um, And I

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Speaker 1: was like, I have this desire to sort of build

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Speaker 1: my own life. Maybe you have a child, and now

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Speaker 1: you've got to then think about what how do I

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Speaker 1: ensure that my child's behind me can do some of

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Speaker 1: those things? And all of these are things that I

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Speaker 1: think most people can identify with. But I think the

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Speaker 1: layer on top of that is like, all right, well, one,

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Speaker 1: on average, you are paid less for the same work

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Speaker 1: than your white peers. If you're a black woman, you're

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Speaker 1: paid even significantly less. I think the numbers around sixties

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Speaker 1: seven cents to a dollar. So how do we apply

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Speaker 1: some of these general rules of thumb when there are

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Speaker 1: these other forces that are that that overcomplicate our saving

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Speaker 1: and our investing. How do we solve for that when

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Speaker 1: we know that we are likely going to be financially

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Speaker 1: responsible for supporting our parents sooner than many of our

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Speaker 1: white peers. Um, how do we how do we even

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Speaker 1: start a business? How do how do we you know,

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Speaker 1: try to own a home when we know that by

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Speaker 1: and large our communities and the property values if those

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Speaker 1: homes don't appreciated the same rates as others. And so

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Speaker 1: it's just after a while just gets so complex. We

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Speaker 1: just start to realize that a white people just say

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Speaker 1: it is what it is, right, we just sort of

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Speaker 1: hide behind the comfort of these cliches and just ignore

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Speaker 1: any of these issues and just do what's safe. Right.

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna take any risk. You're not going to

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Speaker 1: start up business because it's just not worth it. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, your parents fought to get you where you

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Speaker 1: are and now they're alliant on you, and you've got

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Speaker 1: kids and you just it just all of that I

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Speaker 1: think leads to repeating the cycle. And um, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to at least shine the light on a way of

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Speaker 1: thinking and a pathway that we think could solve for

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Speaker 1: some of the issues that we know our community is facing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like maybe the face of the Fire movement

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Speaker 1: at times has been just extremely youthful, maybe dual income,

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Speaker 1: no kids, living that van life sort of thing, and

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Speaker 1: it looks it looks one way, but but y'all have

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Speaker 1: brought like a maturity, a voice that reflects just a

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Speaker 1: lot of different considerations that need to be made. If

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Speaker 1: you still want to pursue financial independence and take care

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Speaker 1: of your family at the same time, and the premise

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Speaker 1: of your book is that you should get ahead financially

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Speaker 1: and then quit your job. That's a lot of what

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Speaker 1: you're speaking to. I'm curious that when you, guys, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like also when you first heard about the fire movement,

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Speaker 1: you were instantly skeptical, Like what what caused that skepticism?

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Speaker 1: And then what made you maybe come around to thinking,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, this is for me, this is what

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Speaker 1: I want to pursue, and this is the right path

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Speaker 1: forward for for us as a couple and for our family. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I was the more skeptical one, and I

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Speaker 1: think it was because I was in a mindset where

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Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to adopt every principle of

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Speaker 1: whatever financial philosophy they were presenting. I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: you could pick and choose, that you could customize, because

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Speaker 1: back then that was the way financial advice was kind

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Speaker 1: of set up. It was like follow these seven steps,

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Speaker 1: do these three things, don't buy lattes, don't do this,

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Speaker 1: and it was very like rule oriented, and so I

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like I had the flexibility to adjust this

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Speaker 1: way of living. And when I would look at what

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Speaker 1: they were doing, the budgets, where they were living, what

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Speaker 1: was included in the budget, what wasn't, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: I already know I got expenses that aren't counted here.

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Speaker 1: I got a hair care expense, I got hair removal

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Speaker 1: expense I want to go through. So it just didn't

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Speaker 1: feel like it was going to be sustainable. It read

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Speaker 1: as deprivation to me, and I know now that's not

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Speaker 1: what they were experiencing, but that's how it read to

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Speaker 1: me at the time. And I think when I came

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Speaker 1: around to it was when I started exposing myself to

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Speaker 1: more voices and when I got offline and met people

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Speaker 1: in real life. So starting to attend you know, the

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Speaker 1: finn CON's, the conferences, the meet ups, where you realize

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Speaker 1: that the fire community, the financial independence community, is more

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Speaker 1: than just bloggers. Like bloggers are like one percent of

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Speaker 1: this large money savvy community. Most people are sane and

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Speaker 1: rational and just don't have time to like type all

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Speaker 1: their thoughts into a website, but nerding out on all

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Speaker 1: the specific math equations of fire exactly and once I

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Speaker 1: realized like, oh, that cool up what we met at

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Speaker 1: the bar in Thailand, or that nice family that stopped

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Speaker 1: and talked to us in Charleston, Like that's the essence

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Speaker 1: of the community. I started to be open and realized, like,

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Speaker 1: that's actually the life I want. I want to be

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Speaker 1: able to pay for a young couple's meal secretly, or

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Speaker 1: just give an encouraging word to a mom who might

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Speaker 1: be struggling with her kid. I think about all of

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Speaker 1: those moments that I've had, and a lot of those

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Speaker 1: have been enabled by people who were financially stable enough

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Speaker 1: to afford to like slow down and really just take

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Speaker 1: advantage of life and be kind to people. It's not

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Speaker 1: only a bunch of folks who are taking advantage of

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Speaker 1: all of the hacks and finding ways to be frugal

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Speaker 1: at every at every turn. But simultaneously, it's it's also

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Speaker 1: not folks who are living life extremely lavishly. And you

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Speaker 1: kind of talked about this in your book as well.

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Speaker 1: You talk about the idea of stealth wealth, uh, and

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Speaker 1: it seemed like for y'all that was sort of a

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Speaker 1: game changer in your perceptions of financial independence. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that.

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Speaker 1: It was because you know, when I thought about stealth wealth,

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Speaker 1: I kind of thought about it as a cure for

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Speaker 1: what is considered black excellence. Um and and I positives

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Speaker 1: if I'm like using one, you know, abstract term to

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Speaker 1: to desfine another. But what I mean by black excellence

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Speaker 1: is it's it's it's a phrase within the black community

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Speaker 1: that is used to describe sort of the spirit of

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Speaker 1: endless resilience and hard work, but also acceptance that you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to work harder than your peers just

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Speaker 1: to get a fair shot. But it's also like used

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Speaker 1: as a term of like celebration, right like whenever you

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Speaker 1: see someone that's doing well or they're breaking ground, it's

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Speaker 1: like hashtag black excellence. So you just sort of speak

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Speaker 1: to it, and there's like this deep sense of pride.

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Speaker 1: But we like to look at both sides of the coin,

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Speaker 1: and on the other side of that coin, what we

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Speaker 1: saw was exhaustion and burnout and pressure and in loneliness

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Speaker 1: and not really no one who to turn to or

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Speaker 1: who you can relate to, or just like the struggle

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Speaker 1: of just trying to relate to your your your community,

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Speaker 1: because you may come across as a bit removed, and

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Speaker 1: so there were consequences to it. And what stealth Wealth

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Speaker 1: really shine a light on is that, well, you can

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Speaker 1: kind of find a better balance, but it will require

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Speaker 1: you to let go of some of the glitz and

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Speaker 1: all of those other things, right, even down to the

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Speaker 1: things that we take pride in, Like, we've reached the

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Speaker 1: point now where I think for some people we don't

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Speaker 1: have to accept abuse in exchange for upward mobility. Right.

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Speaker 1: There are much easier ways and a much wider set

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Speaker 1: of ways to um to to to earn income and

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Speaker 1: to build wealth these days than they were even ten

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Speaker 1: or twenty years ago. And so those are some of

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Speaker 1: the things that we really wanted to um focus on,

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Speaker 1: not just in our messaging for our book, but pretty

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Speaker 1: much in any of the conversations and exchanges that we

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Speaker 1: would have with people. It's just giving them license to

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Speaker 1: kind of let go of some of these things and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's a simpler path to still getting to where you

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Speaker 1: want to go that doesn't require you to be pretty

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Speaker 1: much a superhero within your family and your community. Mm hmmm. Alright, Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating things in in the new

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Speaker 1: book that you guys are are just about to release.

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Speaker 1: Is when you talk about actually only having a fifteen

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Speaker 1: year long career. Most people think about careers as being

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Speaker 1: most of their life forty years or longer. And and

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Speaker 1: so we when I have a couple of questions to

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Speaker 1: ask you about that, Why that is such a sticking

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Speaker 1: point for you guys, And why do you think it's

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Speaker 1: such a good idea for people to pursue a shorter career.

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Speaker 1: We'll we'll get to that right after this. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back from the break talking with Julian and Kirsten

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Speaker 1: Saunders and Jill. Forget the fifteen year mortgage. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the fifteen year career. You might need both both

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Speaker 1: seem like wise paths to take, but for real, you'll

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Speaker 1: you'll have an entire chapter dedicated to the fifteen year career.

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Speaker 1: And most folks, yeah, they're they're gonna say that that

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Speaker 1: seems pretty ridiculous. You know, yeah, you should be looking

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Speaker 1: out there in forty years. But talk to us about

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Speaker 1: the stages of a fifteen year career and why you

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Speaker 1: think it's just a much better approach. Yeah, the fifteen

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Speaker 1: year career was really just about challenging the narrative that

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Speaker 1: careers have to be this lifelong pursuit, because the challenge

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Speaker 1: when you make something a lifelong pursuit is that it

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Speaker 1: becomes a part of your identity, and so leaving that

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Speaker 1: career or pivoting out of a career that may not

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Speaker 1: be sustainable or profitable for your family is much much

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Speaker 1: harder to do. So it's less about the years required,

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Speaker 1: but more so about beginning with the end in mind,

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Speaker 1: the same way that we begin k through twelve elementary school.

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Speaker 1: We know that after twelfth grade something happens. You either

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Speaker 1: go for more degrees, or you go to work, or

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Speaker 1: you go to the military, whatever you decide, but the

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Speaker 1: length of that journey is twelve years before you need

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Speaker 1: to do something else. The same is true for a

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Speaker 1: number of other milestones in our life. Our careers are

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Speaker 1: the only one where we kind of just come up

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Speaker 1: with this arbitrary age of like sixty five is when

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Speaker 1: you can be done. And so the fifteen year career

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Speaker 1: is meant to have you think about your time working

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Speaker 1: in chunks. And the way that we've kind of broken

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Speaker 1: it up in the book is the first five years

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Speaker 1: is really dedicated to building a strong financial foundation. You're

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Speaker 1: focused on frugality. If you're in debt, you're paying that

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Speaker 1: off aggressively, you're setting up good budget habits, and you're

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Speaker 1: really just kind of again establishing solid financial footing. The

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Speaker 1: second five years is about skill building and learning to

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Speaker 1: navigate your workplace for what it's good for. Corporate America

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Speaker 1: has been a great training ground for a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in teaching them soft skills and helping them build

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Speaker 1: a professional network. Many companies offer benefits that allow you

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Speaker 1: access to learning and training from great universities. So take

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Speaker 1: advantage of all of that stuff, build up your skills,

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Speaker 1: start to understand how you can then trade those skills

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Speaker 1: in for financial capital, meaning get promoted or get new jobs.

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Speaker 1: And then the third five years is really about inside.

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Speaker 1: In the second five years, you're also investing uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: hopefully uh. In the third five years is really about

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Speaker 1: practicing monetizing those skills outside of your current employer. And

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Speaker 1: if you don't have to do that, that's great. If

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Speaker 1: you found an employer that continues to pay you and

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Speaker 1: get promoted and offer you opportunities for financial growth, that's great.

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Speaker 1: But for a lot of us, you lose kind of

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Speaker 1: that momentum in your in your current employer. There's been

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Speaker 1: tons of research that says the best way to get

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Speaker 1: a significant salary increases to actually leave your job. And

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Speaker 1: so the third five years is about learning how to

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Speaker 1: monetize and create different income streams outside of your traditional employer.

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Speaker 1: So it could look like a number of things, going

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Speaker 1: to apply for new jobs to test the value of

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Speaker 1: your skills in the marketplace. It can look like taking

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Speaker 1: on new assignments. It can look like setting up for

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Speaker 1: contract and freelance work outside of your nine to five,

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Speaker 1: maybe starting a side hustle or a business. It's just

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Speaker 1: teaching you the difference between wages and salary, which is

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00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: one form of income, and the rest of the series

431
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 1: of streams of income that you can create just by

432
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: again taking your skills in the value that you bring

433
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: in exchanging it in a different marketplace than your employer. Yeah,

434
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,479
Speaker 1: I think what you're what you're getting at to Carriston

435
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: a little bit, there is is the fact that employers

436
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: are certainly aren't loyal to workers in the same way

437
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: that they used to be in our parents generation, and

438
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: so we should be less loyal as well in order

439
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: to think more about our own career and less about

440
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: just like moving up in the same organization that we

441
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: started in, you know. And if I could just add so, yes,

442
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 1: And I also think that it's about time that we

443
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: have that conversation courageously, right, without a feeling like it's

444
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 1: a big taboo, right, Like it's not. It's not a

445
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: surprise anymore. Right. Gen Z already understands this, communicating it

446
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: very loud and clary. I think for us, it's it's

447
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: the it's the boomers and the geriatric millennials of the

448
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: world that are really still kind of holding onto some

449
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: of the lessons that we were taught, right, But like

450
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: to your point, it's so clear, Um, I think that

451
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: what we really you know, one of the things that

452
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: I think is missing from the impact of the fire

453
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: movement is the impact that it has on the future

454
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: of work. What it means for employers. How do you

455
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: attract or retain financially independent employees. Um, it's just a

456
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: completely different approach than you would people who are without

457
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: question reliant on the income and there for the job

458
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: and hopeful for promotion. The way that they approach work

459
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: there needs, the way that they need to be managed

460
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: is completely different, And I think even when we go

461
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: back to what Kirston was saying, the idea of everyone

462
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: putting themselves in a position where they can walk away,

463
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: like that's just a sense of empowerment that I think

464
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: everyone deserves, right, Everyone deserves that ability to be able

465
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: to walk away from a job, like for a variety

466
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: of reasons, whether it's for health issues, mental issues, to

467
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: raise your children, or just because you know, you maybe

468
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: have been dealing with some traumatic experiences at work. Like

469
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: you you you deserve the right to be able to

470
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: walk away with your integrity and with some financial stability.

471
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: And so that's really why we wrote that chapter was

472
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,479
Speaker 1: to say, well, here's how we were able to do it.

473
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: Here's what you should be doing throughout that fifteen year process, which,

474
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: by the way, you can start at any point, right,

475
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: they can be right out of college or you can

476
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: be in the middle of few career and then say

477
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: all right, I'm on a fifteen year whining down period.

478
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's really what it was about. It's just

479
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: like helping people sort of regain some of the control

480
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,239
Speaker 1: over their financial lives and their personal lives that right

481
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: now they don't really have. I think what you said

482
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: there is is so good how employers are having to

483
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: take a look at re examine how it is that

484
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: they can retain talent or why it is that employees

485
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: are willing to work because you know, we think that

486
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: folks can find a lot of meaning and personal satisfaction

487
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: and fulfillment within their work, right, Like it doesn't have

488
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: to be something we escape from. But yeah, like what

489
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that? Can you share what you

490
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: believe about finding fulfilling work? How do you guess balance

491
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: the idea of of cashing out right which is the

492
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: name of your book, with sort of the idea of

493
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: finding sort of satisfaction and meaning within your work. I

494
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: think finding fulfillment work is is is like a prize, right, Like,

495
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: that's what we do. We do fulfilling work. UM, It's

496
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: something that we own. We are um in agreement with

497
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: the sort of power dynamic between us and any of

498
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: the clients that we work with are the people that

499
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: are customers of ours UM And it's to me, honestly

500
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: a dream come true. Right. We get to do work

501
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: that we're product that has um impact in things that

502
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: matter to us. We have control over what we can

503
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: say when we say it. We don't have to ask

504
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: anyone to take time off, right. It's a much It's

505
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: a very free and fulfilling experience. I think everyone deserves that.

506
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: I think everyone for the most part desires that, but

507
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: they don't quite know how to get there, right. And

508
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: that's where all of the the sort of debt payoff,

509
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: and like being a bit financially savvy with respect to investing,

510
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: but also identifying other ways where you can create income

511
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: that you control on your own terms comes into play.

512
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: So it's it's complex, it's multi pronged for sure, but

513
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: that's that's what's required these days because not everyone can

514
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: afford to just go out there and get a high

515
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: paying job that allows them to live a high quality

516
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: of life while still doing work that they believe in,

517
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: Like most people have to make trade offs um and

518
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: so what we're trying to do is create and shine

519
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: the light on a path or an approach that allows

520
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: people to check a few more of those boxes that

521
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: are important to them and hopefully at the end of

522
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: that fifteen years, by the way of that fifteen year career,

523
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: you are able to maybe make less money to work

524
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: for yourself and to do something you enjoy more. There

525
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: are all sorts of ways to kind of leave the

526
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: workforce and not still need that same paycheck. You can

527
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: find ways to get by on less because you've been

528
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: good with my and for the ability to get to

529
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: do exactly what you love. That's a that's a great

530
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: trade off for a lot of folks too. Yeah. I

531
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: think it gives people the break that they need, or

532
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: the the milestone that they need that corporate America doesn't

533
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: naturally give you, or that the workplace doesn't naturally give

534
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: you to reevaluate what matters to you. I think we

535
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: treat fulfillment as if it's this fixed point in our lives.

536
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: But the truth is, what was fulfilling to us when

537
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 1: we were in our twenties and thirties may not be

538
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: fulfilling to us in our forties and fifties. But if

539
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: we never stop to actually ask ourselves, do I still

540
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: enjoy this thing the way that I need to? Is

541
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: it still as fulfilling as it was when I was younger,

542
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: or living in a different area, or the student makeup

543
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: was different, or the school was less crowded. Whatever it is,

544
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: you you deserve that you deserve an opportunity to be

545
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: like actually, I don't know that I want to do

546
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: another round of this. I don't know that I got

547
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: another thirty years in the tank. And what the fifteen

548
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: year career enables you as like a set point to say, Okay,

549
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: you've done enough, good word, you've done enough good financial

550
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: kind of set up to actually ask yourself, is this

551
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: something I want to continue doing? Or do I want

552
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: to pivot into doing something different, or do I just

553
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: want to stop altogether? You have given yourself the option

554
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: at that point. Exactly. Yeah, Well, so I mean what

555
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: you're you're talking about, like you said, reassessing, re examining

556
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: in order to determine if it is time to quit? Like,

557
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: what are some of the questions that you recommend for

558
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: folks to ask themselves? How do you evaluate whether or

559
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: not it's time? I think one of my favorite questions

560
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: is who is this job teaching me to be? What

561
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: kind of person is this job teaching me to be?

562
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: That was one of the questions that I asked myself

563
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: when I was preparing to quit because I didn't feel ready,

564
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: and I had to admit to myself that I may

565
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: never feel ready, So I need a different question instead

566
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: of like a yes or no kind of close ended question.

567
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: And so when I started to think about who the

568
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: job was teaching me to be, what I was becoming

569
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: by continuing to sit in this position, it was, you know,

570
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: someone who needs directions, someone who creates projects but can't

571
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: quite finish them because of lack of organizational alignment. Someone

572
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: who doesn't have the autonomy to recruit and train and

573
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: develop employees the way that I want to. And as

574
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: I went through the list, it wasn't all negative. It

575
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: sounds like it was all negative, but when I went

576
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: through the list, it was like I actually would not

577
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: Like if this was a movie, I wouldn't finish it,

578
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: Like why am I? Am I doing this? And I

579
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: have been there, Yeah, I have been there long enough

580
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: to know kind of how this thing. And we all

581
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: watched a movie where it's like, oh, I know what's

582
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: gonna happen. They're about to fall off this roof and

583
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: then somebody else, so like I could see the plot unfolding.

584
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: And when I realized that the job wasn't going to

585
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: give me the kind of development and growth that I

586
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: was looking for, I started looking for other things besides

587
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: the job, and it became very easy to see how

588
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: my time was being spent, wasn't conducive to the actual

589
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: goals that I have in my life. Yeah, well, one

590
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: of the things you'll talk about, and that you guys

591
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,959
Speaker 1: have done a really good job of. You grabbed some

592
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: digital real estate. You've been kind of tilling the soil

593
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: online in an effort to grow following, make a difference,

594
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: but also in order to generate income. And so, uh

595
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: that that's really what you did with your blog. You

596
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: guys have a podcast now too, You've got the book,

597
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: and so how do you encourage others to think about

598
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: maybe creating something online that can lead to monetization because

599
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: I have been fascinated in recent years by people I

600
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: meet who do completely different things and they make a

601
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: living on the web, sometimes based around Instagram, sometimes based

602
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: around a blog. Like it's amazing the different ways people

603
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: can make money are new ways today. Yeah, we hadn't

604
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: heard about exactly. And I'm one of those geriatric millennials

605
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: who's like, g whiz, really you can do that. I mean,

606
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: I don't talk to us about how you kind of

607
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: think about making money online. Yeah, and so I'm really

608
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, it really goes back to what we spoke

609
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: about in the book, and it's the idea of using

610
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: the skill sets that you learned in corporate America and

611
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: applying it outside of your job. And so my last

612
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: corporate job was as been, you know, probably last ten

613
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: years of my job in variety of marketing roles. And

614
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: one of the things that I got an up close,

615
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: um sort of tutorial on was influence of marketing. And

616
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: I remember, quite honestly, like I would imagine most older people,

617
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: geriatric millennials, gupt like there was a certain stigma attached

618
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: to that term. Right. Influencers were you know, self obsessed

619
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: people who take pictures of themselves all day and they

620
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: just spend their entire days on social media. And I

621
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: really started to think about it differently and start looking

622
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: at it more so in terms of content marketing. And

623
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: now I think it's safe to say that influence of

624
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: marketing has blossomed into what I think is a more

625
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: generally um except to term, or more mature term, which

626
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: is the creator economy. Uh. And so that's where we

627
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: are now. And so I think if there are people

628
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: out there who are interested in it, UM, I think

629
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: first they need to shed that original belief of who

630
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: influencers are UH, and think about what it really means

631
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: to be a cree either. And the reality is content marketing.

632
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: It's something that companies pay a lot of money for

633
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: every single year, and you, as a creator have an

634
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: opportunity to UM solve some of those problems because some

635
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: of the content that they create. In our case, it

636
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: could be any number of organizations or companies who spend

637
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: millions of dollars on marketing but can't quite reach a

638
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: particular audience that we have direct access to. But we

639
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: can charge for that access, for the design and the

640
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: distribution of that messaging. And so in many ways we

641
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: are a multi media UM content and media production company, right.

642
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: That's that's sort of the language that they would use,

643
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: and so I would say that. But one of the

644
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: things that we share in the in the book is

645
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the sort of final story that really kind of tipped

646
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: the scale for us. And it was one of the

647
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: last projects that I worked on, which was an influence

648
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: on marketing project, and I was working for a travel

649
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: company and I remember UM cutting a check for hundreds

650
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars so that we could UM pay

651
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: in winters to stay at the hotel's UH in the

652
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: hotel brands that were owned by the company. Long story short,

653
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: when I reached back out to our PR team just

654
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to kind of figure out how that money was divided

655
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: and how much people were paid. This was back in

656
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen. I believe I uncovered that one

657
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: of the guys that I had really sort of been

658
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: drawn to was paid ten thousand dollars to take a vacation,

659
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: uh to one of our resorts with his daughters and

660
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: eating our restaurants. And I just remember thinking that, like,

661
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: there are non celebrities in the world that are being

662
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: paid ten thousand dollars to take a vacation, five to

663
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: go on vacation. And I was just fascinated by that

664
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about, one, I can do that. UM,

665
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: I can take your vacation. I think I know how

666
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: to take a vacation. Um. And it's not to diminish

667
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: what he does or what any of these other winters do,

668
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: but it was really just to say hey, because at

669
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: that time, I remember fighting for ten tho dollar raise

670
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: that I knew I deserved and they knew I deserved it.

671
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: But what I instead of getting the raise, what I

672
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: got was more responsibility and opportunity to prove that I

673
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: deserved what I already deserved, and I just I just

674
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: couldn't quite wrap my head around. And I was like, here,

675
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: I am paying someone ten dollars to take a vacation

676
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: and I'm fighting, you know, as a BRAIND manager with

677
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: all of this prestige and you know, all of this stuff,

678
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: and it was like, I'm fighting for it, Like this

679
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me. And so I said,

680
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: you know what, I can do that, right, I can

681
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: do this amongst other things. And to your point, we've

682
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: been able to not just do that in terms of

683
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: creating content for social media, but I think doing it

684
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: in a way that I like to think is truly

685
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: creative and unique in the space and adds value and

686
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: isn't just kind of easy to ignore. Right, Like a

687
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: lot of it is also purpose driven or community based, uh,

688
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 1: And that's where that we're really proud of and so um,

689
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, for us, it's it's been a really interesting

690
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: ing um endeavor and it is something that I think

691
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people should actually explore. You don't have

692
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: to do a full time But going back to what

693
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: we were saying about, you know, taking part of this

694
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: idea of a fifteen year career. It could be something

695
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: that you do part time and you only have to

696
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: do it a couple of times, and it could be

697
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: more than enough to fund a roth ira a for

698
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: that year, or to help expedite a debt um a

699
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: debt payoff plan, or something along those lines. And so

700
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: that's that's really how we how we think about it.

701
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: The shift gears. We're talking about how you can make

702
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: money in some of the different ways we side hustle

703
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: that we take on these additional gigs to fund the

704
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: different goals that we've got set before us. One are

705
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: the other factors that contributes to your ability to reach

706
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: financial independence and to cash out is by keeping your

707
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: spending in check. You know, we talked about stealth wealth earlier,

708
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: But how how do y'all keep yourselves from moving the

709
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 1: goal posts? How do you keep yourselves content without sort

710
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: of shifting, I don't know, changing the filters on what

711
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 1: you considered to be sort of this goal of happiness. Yeah,

712
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: it's an ongoing process. Um, there's a couple of things

713
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: in our book that we had to create to kind

714
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: of address this ongoing relationship. The first is that you know,

715
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: we know about financial rules, and so we do have

716
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: at the end of every chapter some rules. And these

717
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: are the hills that we're willing to die on. These

718
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: are the things that we believe that are evergreen, things

719
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: like you know, spend less than you make, pay yourself first,

720
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: make sure you're investing along the way. But then there

721
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: are these rituals, and it's a it's a practice, a

722
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: habit of asking yourself and checking in with yourself to

723
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: make sure that your strategy is still working. And so

724
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: that is something that I think a lot of people

725
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: don't do. They kind of treat their personal finance strategy

726
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: like a driver's license, where it's like I tested once

727
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: at sixteen, I got my license. All I do is

728
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: just kind of renew it, you know, every ten years,

729
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: and that's what it is. But the relationship you have

730
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: with your money is far more personal and and kind

731
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: of um fluid. And so it's really important that you

732
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: start to build in the habit of getting quality of

733
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: data and not just quantitative data. And then all of

734
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: that is underpinned by another concept that we teach in

735
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: the book called the purpose of income. And this is

736
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: really our north star for how we treat budgeting, how

737
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: we treat earning, how we find our enough line is

738
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: that we really have a purpose for our income, and

739
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: the purpose for us is freedom. It's to buy our

740
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: time back, it's to feel confident about the decisions that

741
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: we're making. And yes, there is a number or a

742
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: guideline for financial independence, but financial freedom is more of

743
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: a state of mind. It's more of an approach to

744
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: earning and and abundance and understanding how money flows. This

745
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 1: sounds very woo woo, but it's a it's a very

746
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: different approach to financial security and freedom. And so you

747
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: don't have to have a million dollars in the retirement

748
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: account in order to have a little bit of peace

749
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: out money, have a lot of security and be like,

750
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: you know what, the world is my oyster now, and

751
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: I can make a whole lot of decisions that just

752
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: six months or a year ago, I didn't have it

753
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: disposal and and oh, by the way, you could have

754
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: all of those things and still feel like at any moment,

755
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: someone or something could take it away from you, right,

756
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: And we talked about that in the work. We've met

757
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: people like that, and you know, rather than shame them,

758
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: like we sort of really think about it and dive

759
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: into it and say like, well, what is it? And

760
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: that's what took here Someon's point, it was it was

761
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: a matter of saying, like, this isn't a number at all,

762
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: It's not a destination at all. It's a constant. It's

763
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: a relationship, right, It's something that you have and understand

764
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: needs to be reevaluated and honed and maintained on a

765
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: regular basis. And I think, you know, there's a lot

766
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: of freedom in that, because I think a lot of

767
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: people struggle there, right They they pick a plant, it

768
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: starts working, and then they just stick with it, right,

769
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: regardless of what's happening in the world or in their

770
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: lives around them. And so, you know, for us on

771
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: a personal level, it's it's it's it's sort of abiding

772
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: by that framework that we've we've communicated uh to you

773
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: guys earlier. But it's also a matter of understanding what's

774
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: working for us at this moment in time, which is

775
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: shifting our focus. And so right now our focuses on

776
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: doing powerful work. It's working for us um creative work,

777
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: meaningful work, things that we enjoy and and focusing more

778
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: on income right and we um you know, we're pretty

779
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: happy with the way that things have turned out so far.

780
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: Focus on that income because there's only so much you

781
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: can cut back on. There's a there's a floor, and

782
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: you talk about how there's unlimited potential upside when it

783
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: comes to earning more. Uh, y'all are married, y'all are

784
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: a couple, and so I'm sure that means y'all have

785
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: no fights, no money fights, right, just kidding, Uh, we

786
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: that we all have disagreements with our partners. And so

787
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: after the break, actually we're gonna talk a little bit

788
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: about how you can talk well about money with your partner.

789
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: We'll get to that right after this. All right, we're back.

790
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: We're still talking with Julian and Pearson Saunders about cash

791
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: out in order to build wealth on your own terms.

792
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: And they're this like super sweet, lovey dovey couple who

793
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: uh knows a ton about money. They're always so sweet,

794
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: that's right, especially to each other, like they never I

795
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: can never see either of them saying a harsh word

796
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: towards the other. But you guys, you actually take a

797
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 1: long hard look at relationship dynamics in your book and

798
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: how money uh infiltrates the can you can actually, you know,

799
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: take down relationship. It's actually that the number one cause

800
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: for for divorce and and part of your intentionality was

801
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: saving and investing, you said in the book, was to

802
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: take that possibility off the table, right, that was that

803
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: part of the motivation to pursue financial independence. Yeah, we

804
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: knew that money and arguments about money was the number

805
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: one reason. So we said, if we're going to get

806
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: divorced or separate, then we're gonna it's gonna be number two, three,

807
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: or four. Like we really even like that was our

808
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: way of like kind of tilting the odds in our

809
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: favorite in the absence of like, you know, some people

810
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: have a very strong religious eviction or some other kind

811
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: of spiritual conviction to keep them married, and ours was

812
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: far more pragmatic just to say, like, the way that

813
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: we're going to tilt the odds is just to take

814
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: this off the table. And so we focused on that

815
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: being a core part of our union is making sure

816
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: that we had a solid financial plan and that we

817
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 1: created goals together and that we would re evaluate whenever

818
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 1: we missed or made a goal to understand like, okay,

819
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: well did we set the goal realistically? What happened? How

820
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: can we prevent this from going this way again, or

821
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: how can we accelerate it going forward? And so it's

822
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: just become a natural part of our relationship. And even

823
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: if you do have, let's say, a religious conviction about

824
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 1: marriage and what it means for you and for your spouse,

825
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: what a nice thing to have. Not just the number

826
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: one cause a divorce, but the number one reason that

827
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: people argue, right, that just causes division. Even if you know,

828
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: ultimately the end of the day, there's no way we're

829
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: not going to stay together, it still causes a lot

830
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: of friction, unnecessary friction, and eliminating that it just makes

831
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: life a lot better. Yeah, it does. I Actually it's

832
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: funny because I actually gave a talk to a women's

833
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: group a couple of weeks ago about why money conversations

834
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: were so hard in relationships, and one of the things

835
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: that I cited was that technology has kind of changed

836
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: the way that we partner up. Thirty years ago, you

837
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: were likely to marry somebody like from your neighborhood or

838
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, your general town that grew up very similar

839
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: to you, and so the values conversations never really kind

840
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: of came up. But with the onslaught of you know,

841
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: aviation where you can fly to different cities, You've got

842
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: dating apps, you've got people who go to school in

843
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: different cities. Were just a lot more mobile as a country.

844
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: And so the reality is you can marry somebody that

845
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: grew up completely different than you. And so as you're

846
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: both bringing your money stories into the relationship and this

847
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: is this is our story, there's gonna be some conflict

848
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: because one person feels like, oh, this is definitely the

849
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: way that it should or shouldn't go, and the other

850
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: person might have a totally different view. And so understanding

851
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: that that is normal and a side effect of kind

852
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: of how the society and the social fabric of our

853
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: country has changed, really helps people kind of get past

854
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 1: the first step, which is like, usually people feel bad

855
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: if there's conflict in their relationship or if they're if

856
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: they have encountered some money obstacles. They start to feel like, oh, shoot,

857
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: maybe this is not as solid as I thought it was,

858
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, this is you need to learn

859
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: how to talk about these things. Yeah, yeah, So that's

860
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: kind of the how these arguments begin to take place. Uh, certainly,

861
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: I think technology is certainly a contributing factor to that,

862
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: so let's talk about what to do then about it.

863
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: And so instead of nagging and blaming in your book,

864
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: you say, there's a phrase that you can use instead

865
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: to learn more about about what your partner is feeling.

866
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: Can you can you share that with us and talk

867
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that? Sure? So the phrase

868
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: is tell me more. There you go, I'm saying, it's like,

869
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: tell me more, right, um? And And it's something I

870
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: had to learn the hard way because again I had

871
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: very strong and I still do, but the time, I

872
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: had very strong beliefs about money and the the importance

873
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: of frugality, and and Cairson came from a very different

874
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: background and obviously it developed a very different point of view,

875
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: and so when she would make certain recommendations, you know,

876
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: it was it was almost like an automatic shutdown, right uh.

877
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: And I had to learn like how deflating that could be.

878
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: But also I had to appreciate that like at some point,

879
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: you know, you have to spend money in order to

880
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: nurture and grow a relationship. Doesn't mean you have to

881
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: spend all of your money or spend lavishly, but like

882
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: this idea of of centering frugality at the center of

883
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: everything has the potential to um place limits on the

884
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: growth of your relationship, even if you think about it

885
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: from a standpoint of your careers. It's not uncommon for people,

886
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: especially parents, that after a while, like you gotta check

887
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: in and say, hey, but almost the last time we

888
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: took a vacation together, right Uh. And I think that's

889
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: one of the other reasons why story of watching this

890
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: guy get paid ten thousand dollars to take a vacation

891
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: stuck with me because you know, we didn't have a

892
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: child at the time, but we were preparing for our honeymoon,

893
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: and I just remember feeling this immense pressure that Wow,

894
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: this is gonna be the last time to begin to

895
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: do something like this, And then I have to check

896
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: myself and say, actually, that's not doesn't have to be

897
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: the case, right um? And so what are the things

898
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: that we need to do differently to make sure that

899
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: we don't tie ourselves to all of these unwritten rules

900
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: of how relationships should be or how money should be managed? Uh?

901
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: And so yeah, like, it's important to spend money not

902
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: just on the things that mattered to you, but also

903
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: on the experiences and on building or even healing, right,

904
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: creating connections. Like I'm sure you know, in fact, I'll

905
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: about there isn't a study on this, but I do

906
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,479
Speaker 1: think that there's something to be said about the fact

907
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: that people don't use any of their vacation that they

908
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: actually earn and the divorce rate. Right, Like, imagine if

909
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: more people were actually able people the time stay married. Yeah,

910
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: I'd like to. Yeah, some of our favorite memories are

911
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: from the vacations that we've taken together, right, and so like,

912
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: imagine if you are actually able to take some time

913
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: just to reconnect and create new memories. Um, like maybe

914
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: you you would be you know, renewed. Right. You could

915
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: learn who your partner is now and how that's different

916
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: from who they were ten years ago. If you're anything

917
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: like us, you'll actually learn how you've changed, uh, and

918
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: how you're different, how you sound different, and how a

919
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: different set of believes and so. Yeah, it's it's important

920
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: to spend money. And it's it's crazy that we even

921
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: have to say this, but this is the more that

922
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: we live in. It's important to spend money, especially if

923
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: spending money helps you to nurture relationships with the people

924
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: that you love. Yeah. Not not only are you saying

925
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: tell me more in the midst of an argument where

926
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: you're trying to diffuse the situation. But what I'm hearing

927
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: you say here is that you can live that phrase.

928
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: You can live out, to tell me more, by spending

929
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: that time together looking at each other, having some of

930
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: these meaningful conversations proactively, you know, so that you can

931
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: void some of these fights to begin with. And Julian,

932
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: what you were just saying there reminds me of an

933
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: article I read, I don't know a year or two,

934
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: five years ago even maybe about this janitor who had

935
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: saved up something like seven million dollars in his retirement account.

936
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: And my first thought was sadness. I was like, that's

937
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: really cool that someone making a janitor salary could save

938
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: about that much money. But to die with seven million dollars,

939
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: like what sort of win is that you can't take

940
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 1: it with you? And so we do have to figure

941
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: out how to And that's the tension, right, That's the

942
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: tension when it comes to finances, is how do we

943
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: save and invest well while sporting on things that matter

944
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: here in the present for us as individuals, uh and

945
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: and for our relationships, for our families. That is a

946
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: tough needle to thread, but it's one we have to

947
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 1: consistently look to and we have to continue to thread

948
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: that needle so that we're not leaning too hard in

949
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: one direction or the other. I applaud you so much

950
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: for using that example, because one I think the exact

951
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: same way. And so whenever I'm watching, uh, someone who

952
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: is retiring, right and they're given their speech, and it

953
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: just seems to be like a very consistent thing. It's

954
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: very clear that their co workers knew them better than

955
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: their partner or their family, and it's so common, right,

956
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: And then they get retired and they go into this

957
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: deep depression. They feel lost there at home with people

958
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: that they don't know, or that people you know what

959
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: I mean, they don't have any of those things. And

960
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: I think so much of it speaks to just our

961
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: obsession with work culture. And so again I applaud you

962
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: for that, and and just kind of sort of rounding

963
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: it out and going back to what I was saying,

964
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: it's like, be open to some of these ideas. Be

965
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 1: more open if someone has an idea to go try something,

966
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: or to go somewhere or take a break, that would

967
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: be willing to unplug. I think all of these things

968
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: are connected, but it's really on us to kind of

969
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: make the decision that we're not going to be so

970
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: work obsessed that it does detrimental impact to our health

971
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: or any of our interpersonal relationships. M I love it.

972
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: I think it's a really good note to end it on.

973
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: Cashing Out is is sitting bookstores this coming week, right man,

974
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: And so all right, y'all, we're working our listeners, working

975
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: how the money folks find out more about out you

976
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: guys and what you're up to. Yes, cashing Out, as

977
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: you mentioned, available June fourteenth, anywhere books are sold. But

978
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: if you want to keep up with us and our shenanigans,

979
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: you can find us at rich and regular dot com.

980
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: And then we're also on all of the social media's

981
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: at rich and Regular. It's awesome. Well, Julian Kierston, thank

982
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. Thank you, all right, Matt.

983
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: Always good to catch up with two of our favorite

984
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: personal financers, maybe our favorite couple in the personal finance world.

985
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: If for any of the other couple of creators out there,

986
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: we like you too, Julian Kierson. We're talking to them today.

987
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: I didn't have barbecue with them last month. Okay, so,

988
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: uh that is true. Yeah, well, we're pumped about the

989
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: release of this book. It's it really is wonderful. But

990
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Matt, what was your big takeaway from our

991
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: conversation today. So it was when we're talking about how

992
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: to determine whether or not you're going to quit your

993
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: job or not, whether it's the right time, And she

994
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: said that the question to ask herself, or you know

995
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 1: that she specifically asked herself, was who is this job

996
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: teaching me to be? Who am I becoming? Where I

997
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: had to stay in this role? I think that is

998
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: such a healthy way to not just look at your

999
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: current circumstances and to look at the history that you

1000
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: have with that company and the immediate benefits you're now receiving.

1001
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: But hopefully by asking that question, it allows you just

1002
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: to look off into the future, right like, who if

1003
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: I continue on this path, who am I going to

1004
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: be by the end of my career? I think that's

1005
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: just an excellent way to not let your identity get

1006
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: tied up into your work and instead looking proactively to

1007
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: the future with you know, sort of with the end

1008
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: in mind, as opposed to just kind of grinding it out. Yeah,

1009
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: how's this movie gonna end instead exactly like you know

1010
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: the direction is going unless there's some sort of plot

1011
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: twist plot twists at the end, But yeah, what was

1012
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: your big dick away? Okay, so I think mine was

1013
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: earlier on in the episode when when basically when Kerson said,

1014
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: you can pick and choose, like you don't have to

1015
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: necessarily follow one person or one podcast or one blog

1016
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: their opinions, their advice, hop, clide and sinker all the way.

1017
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: And I think that is brilliant advice because maybe we

1018
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: get stuck in around we start listening to someone like, man,

1019
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: they've got some good ideas, but my life looks a

1020
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: little different. And you know what you can do. You

1021
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: can you can adapt, or you can take bits and

1022
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: pieces from different content creators, from from different smart folks

1023
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: and synthesize them and find the way that they're going

1024
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: to best work for your life. So you can take

1025
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of rich and regular, right, a little

1026
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 1: bit of Chad Carson investing in real estate, a little

1027
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: bit of our friend Jesse from the Best Interest, a

1028
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit of how the money, and you can kind

1029
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: of like put put together this amalgamation of good money

1030
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: advice from a bunch of different folks and say, you

1031
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 1: know that this is actually the best mismash for how

1032
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: I want to live moving forward. And it doesn't have

1033
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 1: to be that financial independence, retire early, that quitting work

1034
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: in the next six or seven years. Right, It's gonna

1035
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: look different for all sorts of different people. And I

1036
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: think that's a good thing. But I think sometimes we think, well,

1037
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: my favorite creator said this, and so I must react accordingly. Well,

1038
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: not necessarily, right, you can you can kind of adapt

1039
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: that advice to the way you want to live life. Absolutely. Yeah,

1040
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: We're all about helping to create some independent thinkers out there,

1041
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: and we don't have to come we're doing optimization robots, right,

1042
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes that's something I want to fight against.

1043
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of like optimization heavy content

1044
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: and I'm all for optimization up into a certain point,

1045
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: but when we come optimization robots were missing often what

1046
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: makes life worth living. That's so true, man, All right,

1047
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: let's shift gears. Get to the beer that we enjoyed

1048
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: during this episode during our conversation with Julian and Kirsten,

1049
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: and we enjoyed Valley of Gold, which is a Belgian

1050
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: pale Ale by Wild Heaven, and this one was fermented

1051
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: with Belgian yeast and Bretta omiacs. What your thoughts on

1052
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: this beer? Nice pronunciation on bretton amiacs there normally to

1053
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: say Brett read it right off the label. I thoroughly

1054
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: enjoyed this beer was so good. I was thinking it

1055
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: was gonna be average, and this was like blew it

1056
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: out of the park for me. Yeah. Yeah, the elements

1057
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: of that farmhouse funk going on, but it was also

1058
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: bright and vivid with nice hot flavors coming through. For me,

1059
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: That's what did it. It wasn't just this it was

1060
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: gonna be yea. It wasn't dull in overly Belgian e right,

1061
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: like like you could totally taste some of the hop

1062
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: shining through. And so it was like this bright version

1063
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: of a Belgian of a farmhouse style, and it had

1064
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: what I would say, so much personality. It's like a

1065
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: it's like a beer with personality. This was just like

1066
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: such a unique beer. I had the gold leaf on

1067
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: top of it. Yeah, this gold foil, which made me

1068
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: think that this was extra. It was gonna have some

1069
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: sort of champagne for investnce and it like it felt

1070
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: alive totally kind of like when you when you open

1071
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: some champagne. Man, I thought this was the best beer

1072
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: probably I've ever had from Wild Heaven, and one of

1073
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: the best beers I've had in I don't know, at

1074
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: least in the last few months, at least in the

1075
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: past week. Now do you get to drink a lot

1076
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: of good beer? So on the label here. So this

1077
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: is a part of their Mixed Fermentation series, which I

1078
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: hadn't heard of. But I'm glad that we got to

1079
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: share this one and I am going to be looking

1080
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: for more of this beer more from the series on

1081
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: the shelves. Wild Heaven. Excellent job. It's Gray seeing in

1082
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: Atlanta brewery knock it out of the park. But this

1083
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: episode has been all about Atlanta. You mean, we're here

1084
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Wild Heaven there in Atlanta, and so is

1085
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: Ritt and Regular, And so we'll make sure to link

1086
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: to rist and Regular some of their links as well

1087
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: as where you can find their book, which will be

1088
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: out next week. Yeah. Man, all right, that's gonna do

1089
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: it for this episode. So until next time, Best Friends Out,

1090
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out. M