1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Dear listener, before we start, just a warning that suicide 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: is going to come up in this pace. 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 2: Take care. 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 3: I do think that Latino should be considered a race, 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 3: and I do think that we should hold on to 6 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 3: this marker because even with all of the diversity that 7 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 3: exists within Latinidad, the way that I think of it 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 3: is like a chain and each link is different, and 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 3: we are stronger when we stand together. 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 4: What I agree with is the idea that we are 11 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 4: stronger together. But I don't know how much I agree 12 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 4: with the idea that Latino should be a race. This 13 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 4: homogeneous concept of Latinidad is the problem because it enables 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 4: democrats to treat us as a monolith, to obscure these 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 4: distinctions that exist within our communities that are important. 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: From FUTU media and PRX, It's Latino Usa. I'm Maria 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: in Rosa today. Let me look at what it means 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: to claim the identity of Latino or Latina in twenty 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: twenty five, and we ask the question, should Latino be 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: a racial category or is Latini dad simply a fiction? 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: And how do we answer these questions when simply existing 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: as a Latino today can make you a target. Dear listener, 23 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Latino and Latina thinkers, critics, academics, professors, journalists. Many of 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: them are meeting the moment that we are living through 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five. Today, we're going to hear from 26 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: two of them. Jin Guerrero is a journalist. She's a columnist. 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: She's the author of Hate Monger Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: and the White Nationalist Agenda. She's also the author of 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: a recent column in The New York Times titled How 30 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: I Crossed the Border Back to Myself, And in the 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: essay she writes about the complexities and criticisms of Latini dad, 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: of Latino and Latina as a blanket identity. And You're 33 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: gonna hear from Julisa Araya. She's an activist and a writer, 34 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: a thought leader who shared her story of growing up 35 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: undocumented in her first book, It's called My Underground American Dream, 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: My true story as an undocumented immigrant who became a 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: Wall Street executive. Julissa is also the author of You 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: Sound Like a White Girl, a book where she looks 39 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: at the myth of assimilation in the United States. Jean 40 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: Guerrero and Julisa Arseraya have both written extensively about the 41 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: benefits and the trappings of claiming a Latino or Latina identity. 42 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: They've both gone through the journey, Jean at times rejecting 43 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: the identity. 44 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 4: At the time I didn't strongly identify as Latina. 45 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: Julisa in her younger years, being glad she sounded like 46 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: a white girl. 47 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: The truth is that speaking Spanish can be dangerous for 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: some people. 49 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: And then both have come to terms with the solidarity 50 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: and the flaws of Latini dad and how Latinos and 51 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: Latinas are being targeted today. 52 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: That's the unleashing of what I think we are the 53 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 4: ugliest parts of America. 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: So let's jump into our conversation. Jin Guerrero and Julisa Arseraya. 55 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Latino USA. It's good to have you on 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: the show. 57 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 5: Great to be here. It's good to be here. 58 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: So Jean, you actually, in your essay that you wrote 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: for The New York Times about finding your Latinidad and 60 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: really being in your Latinida, you were kind of internally 61 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: fighting in your own home. Your mom is Puerto Rican, 62 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: your dad is Mexican, and this became like weaponized in 63 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: your family. You were essentially fighting these two parts of yourself. 64 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean this is a difficult way to grow up, right, Yeah, 65 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: own your Latinidad, right exactly. 66 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 4: It gets at this idea of Latinos being very contradictory 67 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 4: and many times at odds with one another in ways 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 4: that we I don't think talk about enough. My mom, 69 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 4: who is from Puerto Rico, she told me that when 70 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 4: she was pregnant with me, my father's cousins campaigned against 71 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 4: his relationship with Gringa because you know, Puerto Ricans are 72 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: US citizens, so they were using that as kind of 73 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 4: like a derogatory term to lump her with white people. 74 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 4: And then when my mom was raising me mostly by 75 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: herself after my dad succumbed to addiction and they split up, 76 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 4: whenever I would misbehave as a child, my Puerto Rican 77 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 4: grandmother would blame the Mexican in me. She would say, 78 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 4: that's her father's blood coursing in her veins. And there 79 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 4: was a time when eventually my mom forbade me from 80 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 4: going to Mexico, which I didn't strongly identify as Latin. 81 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: I remember sometimes I would call myself Hispanic, but even 82 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 4: that term was something that I started using only after 83 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 4: this white guy that I'd been dating would call me that, 84 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 4: and more often I referred to myself as Mexican and 85 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 4: Puerto Rican, which was my way of being like, no, 86 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 4: I am both of these things. 87 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering for you, Julisa, you're growing up Mexican. 88 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: Your path that you write about in Sound Like a 89 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: White Girl really talks about how you were attempting to 90 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: fit in to the United States. If Jean's identity was 91 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: really battling internally, raging between the Puerto Rican and the 92 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: Mexican in her own home, how do you see your 93 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: understanding of your Latini. 94 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: Dad, Yeah, I definitely went through a transformation where when 95 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 3: I first immigrated to the United States when I was eleven, 96 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 3: I very much wanted to fit in. When a boy 97 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 3: I had a crush on told me I sounded like 98 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: a white girl, I took that as a compliment. 99 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 6: I was like, oh my. 100 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: God, yes, I sound like a white girl, because to me, 101 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: that meant I fit in. 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 6: To me, that meant my accent was gone. I spoke English. 103 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: Now I sounded like I was supposed to, quote unquote, 104 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 3: And so I went through a long period of really 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: almost rejecting parts of my mexicanness, or rather that I 106 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 3: was Mexican at home, and then when I was in 107 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 3: non Mexican spaces, I didn't want to be the Mexican 108 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: in the room, right Like, I just wanted to kind 109 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: of blend in with everybody else. And over time, I 110 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: think as I became more aware of the history of 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: my people in this country, as I learned about why 112 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: the term Latino even exist, how much we had to 113 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 3: fight for our rights, I sort of became radicalized in 114 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: a way, in a very good way of like wanting 115 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: to own my mexicanness, wanting to own my Latinidad, and finding, 116 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: by the way, the belonging that I so desperately wanted 117 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: my whole life. In the Latino community, that is where 118 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: I have found the most welcoming people, the most supportive people. 119 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: And so for me, it's been somewhat of a different 120 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: experience because I do think that where I have found belonging, 121 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: others have not. Others have been subject to the same 122 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: sort of like racism and otherness that we experience in 123 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: the bigger sort of American framework. Because by the way 124 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: of what you were talking about, Gene just reminds me 125 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 3: of the white supremacy framework, right of like who's better 126 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: than who. And by the way, like colorism, all of 127 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 3: these things like exist in Mexican culture, in Latino culture, 128 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: like that it's not exclusive to the United States. And 129 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: like the thing that I heard growing up was that 130 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: it was she a really good thing to marry someone white, 131 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 3: to marry agringa or gringo because and. 132 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: Let's just use that phrase that we all know. 133 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, but which just. 134 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: So people understand, Like I remember hearing that when I 135 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: was six years old. Yeah, I was six years old, 136 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: and you're hearing a concert better the race, I kihosa, 137 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Oh, you want the baby to 138 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: be more white? Like it just is so clearly out 139 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: there in front of us. 140 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's also like I don't think that like 141 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 3: my mom, I don't think that she realized what that 142 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 3: was really saying and what that was doing to my 143 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 3: self confidence. Because if you're saying that I need to 144 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: better the race, that means I'm not good enough. That 145 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: means I need to better myself. Like my child needs 146 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: to not look like me. And by the way, like 147 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: I am beautiful, so like you know, like my child 148 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 3: thinks fully does look like me, and her dad he's 149 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 3: also a brown Mexican, you know. 150 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: So there you go. 151 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 6: Mom. 152 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: So I want to go into the fact that Eugene 153 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: saw the term Latino as really reductive, and then in 154 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen you actually take on the term Latina. So 155 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: let's talk about the reductive to owning it. 156 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 4: In Mexico, I was reporting on commodities, so I often 157 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: saw Mexicans and Central Americans who identified as white or 158 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 4: as Mestizo working with transnational, sometimes US based corporations or 159 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 4: cartels to exploit and displace their Afro and Indigenous countrymen. 160 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: There was this racial hierarchy south of the border that 161 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 4: just isn't acknowledged in the United States. I was somebody 162 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 4: who had grown up in a country that profited from 163 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 4: the extraction that was displacing people across this region, and 164 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 4: I just I couldn't claim to be in the same 165 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 4: category as the people who were being robbed of their 166 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 4: resources and their lands, even though in the United States 167 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: we would all be Latinos. But then I moved back 168 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 4: to the US. It was just a few months before 169 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 4: Trump announced his candidacy, and I remember listening to him 170 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: make that announcement and started by insulting Mexicans, and I 171 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: felt very personally attacked. I felt he was attacking people 172 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 4: like my dad in the way that I had seen 173 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 4: my dad and mexicanists be attacked within my own family. 174 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 4: And so it was then I began to very strongly 175 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 4: identify as strongly and simply as a Latina. To me, 176 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: it Trump was attacking me and my loved one, and 177 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 4: the term gave me a sense of solidarity and safety 178 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 4: in numbers. 179 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 5: I thought by linking arms with other. 180 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 4: People in the Scapegoaded community, we could stand a chance 181 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 4: against the mag of movement. And it just it was 182 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: an entirely different context from the one in which I'd 183 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 4: been reporting in Mexico. In this case, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, 184 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 4: we were all under attack, and I found it extremely 185 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: important to identify as a Latina and to defend my 186 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: people and to show that I was proud of who 187 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 4: I was and who my family was. 188 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: But soon, Jane, you would write that the Latino Unity 189 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: actually turned out to be something of a fiction, and 190 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: you're going to tell us why you said that. That's 191 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: coming up after the break, not dem I. Yes, Hey, 192 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: we're back, and we're going to pick up my conversation 193 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: with journalists jan Gerero and author Julisa Arceria. 194 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: Here we go. 195 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: So I actually I'm going to read something, Julisa. Actually 196 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: it's something that Gene wrote, but I want you to 197 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: react to it, Julisa. 198 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: So, Jean, you're right. 199 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: I wanted so badly to find the words to unite 200 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: us and by extension, all us Latinos. But our unity 201 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: had always been a fiction. In our desperation to be 202 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: seen and heard, many of us had embraced a palatable 203 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: theater of Latini dad, one that ignored our contradictions. So, Julisa, 204 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: you've mentioned before that listing Latinos as an official race 205 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: in the US Census would actually benefit Latinos and Latinas. 206 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: So what's your reaction to Gene saying that Latino identity 207 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: and unity might just be a fiction. 208 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 6: Julisa, I think there's a lot of truth in what 209 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 6: you're right, Jean. 210 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 3: I want to start off, just Maria, something that you know, 211 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: you can only be Latino in the US, that like 212 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 3: Latinos don't exist outside of the US, and that's often 213 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: an argument that I hear against Latinidad. I think that 214 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 3: we do have a very unique identity in the United States. 215 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 3: Our experience in the United States is very different than 216 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 3: it is for Mexicans in Mexico, Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico, 217 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: even though they're US citizens. And so to me, it's 218 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 3: understanding where Latino came from, why it even exists, and 219 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: to me, that telling of our desire to find our 220 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: own place in this country. I do think that Latino 221 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: should be considered a race, and I do think that 222 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 3: we should hold on to this marker because even with 223 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: all of the diversity that exists within Latinidad, the way 224 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 3: that I think of it is like a chain, and 225 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: each link is different. There are black people who are Latino, 226 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: there are white people who are Latino, there are Asian 227 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: people we're Latino, but we're all still part of the 228 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 3: same chain, and we are stronger when we stand together, 229 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: even if each of those links is distinctly different. 230 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: That is to me a pretty controversial idea, right, Jean, 231 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: what's your opinion on this? 232 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 4: Well, what I agree with is the idea that we 233 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 4: are stronger together, But I don't know how much I 234 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 4: agree with the idea that Latino should be a race. 235 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 4: What I was arguing in my essay is that this 236 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 4: homogeneous concept of latinis as is the problem because it 237 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 4: enables Democrats to treat us as a monolith to obscure 238 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 4: these distinctions that exist within our communities that are important. 239 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 4: And then at the same time, the Republicans have used 240 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: our differences that the Democrats are not acknowledging to pit 241 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: us against one another. And so what I argue for 242 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 4: my essay is that it's time for our politicians and 243 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 4: for our fellow Americans to see latinos as co authors 244 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 4: of the American story. And so I think we need 245 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: to reimagine Latini that to convey this idea that we 246 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 4: include black people, we include people who identify as indigenous, 247 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 4: we include people who identify as white, we include people 248 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 4: who identify as Asian, so that our fellow Americans began 249 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 4: to treat us as equals to them. 250 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that happened is that 251 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has decided that English should be declared the 252 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: official language of the United States. 253 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: Which one of you wants to go first. 254 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 6: Well, gee, I look like you're ready. 255 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it just reminds me of going to 256 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 4: an elementary school in South San Diego when I was 257 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 4: a kid and it was against the rules to speak Spanish. 258 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 4: If we were caught speaking Spanish, we had to write 259 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: one hundred times, I will not speak Spanish. And this 260 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 4: was back in the nineteen nineties when there was this 261 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 4: big anti immigrant hysteria going on, and now we're seeing 262 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: that really. 263 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah yet again. 264 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 4: Now we're seeing it again. And this really goes back 265 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: to the white nationalist agenda that I've written about. I mean, 266 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 4: the English as an official language thing. This goes back 267 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 4: to John Tanton, the Michigan i doctor who is the 268 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 4: father of the modern anti immigrant movement, who created think 269 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 4: tanks like the Federation for American Immigration Reform and all 270 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 4: these different organizations that were rooted and restricting immigration. 271 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: I mean, it feels so silly. 272 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Here we are, Julisa in the year twenty twenty five, 273 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: when Latinos and Latinas are clearly demographically the future of 274 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: the United States. The issue of language is a little 275 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: bit more complicated, but it just feels so completely retrograde 276 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: that we are having this conversation yet one more time. 277 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 278 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: And it's also really interesting because I'm having all these 279 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 3: conversations with I'm a Newish mom. My daughter's almost two, 280 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: and I'm having all these conversations with other moms, some 281 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: of whom are white. And you know, everybody is thinking 282 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: about sending their kids to dual immersion exactly schools, right, 283 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 3: and so it's like aout right all the white parents 284 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 3: are thinking about how do I give my child an 285 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 3: edge by having them speak a second language. So it 286 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: really just for me, is just to kind other sign 287 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: of what I wrote about. And you sound like a 288 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 3: white girl, which is that white people want our language, 289 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 3: they want our culture, they want our sasson, but they 290 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: don't want us right, so they want to be able 291 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 3: to speak Spanish, but they don't want us to speak Spanish. 292 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 3: And the truth is that speaking Spanish can be dangerous 293 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 3: for some people, like you've seen these two women in 294 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: Montana be detained by border patrol because they were speaking Spanish. 295 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 3: There were schools where you were not allowed to speak 296 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 3: Spanish in the twenties and thirties and fifties and sixties. 297 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 3: Students would be beat if they were speaking Spanish in schools. 298 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 3: The real danger to me is two things. One is 299 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: the risk of seeing Latinos once again retreat from Spanish, 300 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 3: that maybe we don't want to teach our children Spanish 301 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: again because of the fear of how that might affect 302 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: them in the future, the fear that they might be discriminated, 303 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: which is a big reason why a lot of Latinos 304 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: don't speak Spanish. And the second thing is there was 305 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: an article in New York Times that said that the 306 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 3: executive action was mostly symbolic, and I disagree with that. 307 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: I think it's more than symbolic. I think that they 308 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 3: are going to be real consequences from things like just 309 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: even from emboldening people to discriminate against those that are 310 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 3: speaking another language, particularly Spanish, to things like federal documents 311 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: not being you know, if you go into court, and 312 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: not having the translator, voting materials not being translated, all 313 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 3: of these things that maybe we take for granted because 314 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: we see translations in a lot of places, but by 315 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: the way, somebody had to fight for those translations to happen. 316 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: I want to take a moment to just uplift somebody 317 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: who we never met, but who is now a part 318 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: of our reality, and that is an eleven year old 319 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: girl by the name of Jocelyn Drojo Caranza. She was 320 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: from Texas and she took her own life after allegedly 321 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: being bullied and being told that Ice was going to 322 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: come and take her parents away, Gene and then I'll 323 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: ask you, Julisa, just your thoughts about losing a little 324 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: girl like Joscelyn Broho Caranzo. 325 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 4: It's devastating. It's devastating, and it just speaks to how 326 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 4: Trump is emboldening vigilantism and the terrorizing of immigrants by 327 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: not only his administration and his border patrol, but by civilians, 328 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 4: as people who are dressing up as Ice and going 329 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 4: into immigrant communities just to scare people. And now this 330 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 4: situation with Jocelyn, it's just horrific. It's the unleashing of 331 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 4: what I think are the ugliest parts of America. You know, 332 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 4: a permission slip to be the worst kind of bully. 333 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: But we can fight back. And I think what this 334 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: case reminds me of is Stephen Miller, who I wrote 335 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 4: my book about. When he was a teenager, he would 336 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: go around bullying his emmigrant classmates. According to students that 337 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: I interviewed, then he would go up to people who 338 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 4: were speaking Spanish and you would yell at them, you know, 339 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 4: speak English, go back to your country. And fortunately there 340 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 4: was people there to stand up for them. There was 341 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 4: a Latina classmate of Steven Miller's name, Madiev Vivanco, who 342 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 4: would go up to him and be like, pick on 343 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 4: people your own size, pick on people that can actually 344 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 4: argue back with you, because he was deliberately seeking out 345 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 4: people who struggled with English. And so to me, it's 346 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 4: just an example of the importance of when you see 347 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 4: this kind of bullying, when you see this kind of 348 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 4: harassment and these attacks on our communities, it's just so 349 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 4: important to if you have the privilege and if you 350 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 4: have the power, to stand up to not let it happen. 351 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, your thoughts to Lisa, It's devastating that she was 352 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 3: such a young girl, But the truth is that were 353 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 3: to have power and they have consequences. I feel like 354 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 3: during his first term, we could say when you have 355 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 3: the president saying these things, but now it's not just 356 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 3: the president. It feels like so many people, just like 357 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: everyday people are so emboldened to say whatever they want 358 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 3: and to do whatever they want. And you know, I 359 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: dedicated my book to the people of Elpaso, Texas because 360 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 3: we all remember what happened on August third, twenty nineteen, 361 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 3: when a white nationalist went into Walmart to try to 362 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 3: kill quote as many Mexicans as possible, because he was 363 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: trying to prevent an invasion. That is the same thing 364 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 3: with Jocelyn taking her own life because people were bullying her. 365 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: It is the direct consequences of the rhetoric that is 366 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 3: coming from the White House, from Congressmen, from senators, from teachers. 367 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: You had teachers who were tweeting at Trump telling him 368 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 3: that her school had been overrun with illegals. 369 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 6: To send eyes to her school is up to us 370 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 6: who can who. 371 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 3: Still have energy to speak out against this, to stand 372 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 3: up for our community, because otherwise it's going to keep happening. 373 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 3: And this is why I keep saying that, you know, 374 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 3: I'm not interested in how other people see us, but 375 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 3: how we see ourselves. Because we can spend all of 376 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 3: our time trying to change people's hearts and minds and 377 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 3: we might not get anywhere, or we can spend time 378 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 3: infusing us with the confidence, with the knowledge, with the 379 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 3: community that we need to withstand the attacks. 380 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 6: I would rather spend my time doing that, Jean. 381 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: Recently, you and I had a conversation and I told 382 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: you that I love watching you on Instagram because you're 383 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: doing something You're either on your skateboard or you now 384 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: are dancing, and you told me that actually turning to 385 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: Latin dance, all different forms of Latin dance, and you 386 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: basically said, this is what has saved me. 387 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 5: Yeah. 388 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 4: I mean we started this conversation by talking about Trump 389 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 4: trying to make English the official language of the US, 390 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 4: and fundamentally that is about creating a permanent underclass in 391 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 4: the US and making us shrink away from who we are. 392 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 4: Now is the moment to embrace who we are because 393 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 4: it's magical, it's healing, it's empowering, its safety, it's. 394 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 5: Exactly what we need. 395 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 4: We are so big and complicated as Latinos, and we 396 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 4: should embrace that, and we should insist on that. Like 397 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 4: this impulse to reduce us, to explain us, to put 398 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 4: us in a box that is part of the white 399 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 4: supremacist movement, and I think like we need to just 400 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 4: insist that we are also untranslatable. We defy categorization, we 401 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 4: defy explanation, and I think that we to me, that 402 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 4: makes me more inclined to do things like salted dancing, 403 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 4: about teta dancing, because it's like I'm more than just 404 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 4: one thing. 405 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 5: I'm all of these different things that Latini that offers. 406 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 4: And I can be a writer, I can be a 407 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 4: public intellectual, I can be a dancer, I can be 408 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 4: you know, I'm not a mom, but I recently rescued 409 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 4: a French bulldog who's my son, and I'm like, I'm 410 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 4: all of these things. And I think too often this 411 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 4: country tries to reduce us to caricatures and to stereotypes. 412 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 4: And when we talk about Latini that we need to 413 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,239 Speaker 4: resist that reductionism. We need to be like, Latinos are 414 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 4: all things. We're my dad who loves Trump and loves Trout, 415 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 4: Tucker Carlson. We are that, and we are also progressive 416 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 4: mothers who do everything to hold up their entire families, 417 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 4: their entire communities were just as complicated and untranslatable and 418 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 4: fathomless as the Whitman's of the world. 419 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: Bien vicho, muchas Grassias, Jean, muchas Grassias, Julissa. Thank you 420 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: so much for sharing your thoughts and your hearts with us. 421 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 5: Thanks Maria, Thank you, Maria. 422 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: That was Jan Guerrero, journalist and author and activist and 423 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: author Julisa arse Praya. Our episode was produced by Renaldo 424 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,239 Speaker 1: Lean Junior, with production assistants from Tasha Sandoval. It was 425 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: edited by Fernande Echavari and it was mixed by JJ Carubin. 426 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: The Latino USA team also includes Rosa Na Guire, Julia Caruso, 427 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: Felicia do Minhez, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Estrada, Dominique Estrosa, Stephanie Lebau, 428 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: Andrea Lopez Gruzado, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, Monica Moreles Garcia, 429 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: Nour Saudi and Nancy Trujillo, Bennie Ramirez, Marlon Bishop, Maria 430 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: Garcia and myself are your co executive producers and I'm 431 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: your host, Mariano Rossa join us again. 432 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: On our next episode, Dear listener. 433 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: In the meantime, I'll see you on all of our 434 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: social media and you know what I'm gonna say, rote 435 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: maayas Jao. 436 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 3: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising 437 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: Simons Foundation, Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more at Hsfoundation, 438 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: dot Org, Skyline Foundation, and the Ford Foundation, working with 439 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide.