Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: A mid twenty twenty five's blur of news, one story
Speaker 2: keeps coming back. There are new developments in the Jeffrey
Speaker 2: Epstein investigation.
Speaker 1: Related to the case of convicted sex offended financier Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2: There's been a drumbeat of new details about the late
Speaker 2: convicted sex trafficker, about his connections to political and financial elite,
Speaker 2: about his emails, all seeming to raise more questions than
Speaker 2: they answer. How did Epstein exploit so many underage girls
Speaker 2: for so long with little consequence while maintaining a circle
Speaker 2: of powerful friends. But answers have appeared close at hand.
Speaker 2: Here's then presidential candidate Trump on Fox and Friends in
Speaker 2: the summer of twenty twenty four, would you declassify the
Speaker 2: Epstein files? Yeah, Yeah, I would. Now, after months of
Speaker 2: stops and starts and pressure from the left and right,
Speaker 2: the release of the Epstein files may be near. In November,
Speaker 2: the House and Senate past to bill mandating that the
Speaker 2: Department of Justice released the documents within thirty days were
Speaker 2: by December nineteenth.
Speaker 3: It's become the biggest political story of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg investigative reporter Jason Leopold. Jason has been tracking
Speaker 2: the Epstein story closely in his weekly Foy of Files
Speaker 2: newsletter and on his new podcast for Bloomberg called Disclosure.
Speaker 3: That kind of pressure and that kind of coverage around
Speaker 3: it is kind of forced the hand of the Department
Speaker 3: of Justice, the FBI, who clearly sought to keep this
Speaker 3: under wraps.
Speaker 2: Jason's specialty is obtaining documents using the Freedom of Information Act,
Speaker 2: so he's just the guy to walk us through what
Speaker 2: to expect when the government is on the clock to
Speaker 2: turn over a trove of material. I'm David Gura, and
Speaker 2: this is the big tape from Bloomberg News today on
Speaker 2: the show, What we can expect from the Epstein Files?
Speaker 2: What more is there to learn from these documents? What
Speaker 2: the government might release, and what it might hold back. Jason,
Speaker 2: it's hard to believe, but it's been more than six
Speaker 2: years since Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in a jail
Speaker 2: cell in Manhattan, and we do know a good deal
Speaker 2: about him. We've learned a lot more here in recent
Speaker 2: months and years. He was the subject of two federal investigations.
Speaker 2: We've heard about the billions of dollars that flowed through
Speaker 2: the accounts that he had at major financial institutions. Then
Speaker 2: of course through the emails the correspondence that we've seen
Speaker 2: a lot of them show his connections to the rich
Speaker 2: and powerful. So at this stage, what is there that
Speaker 2: we do not know about Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 1: There's actually a lot we don't know.
Speaker 3: What we don't know relates to, certainly the source of
Speaker 3: his wealth, very very important. We don't have a real
Speaker 3: understanding as to how Jeffrey Epstein made all of this money.
Speaker 3: And it's not to say that the federal government necessarily
Speaker 3: has the answer to that question in these documents, but
Speaker 3: it's one of the unanswered questions that has persisted for many,
Speaker 3: many years. And in addition to that, we also don't
Speaker 3: really know how the government conducted its investigation, how that
Speaker 3: investigation unfolded by the FBI. We have some sense as
Speaker 3: to how the sweetheart deal, very controversial plea deal that
Speaker 3: he entered into with prosecutors in Florida in Florida came about,
Speaker 3: but what led up to it, What was happening behind
Speaker 3: the scenes, What did the FBI find, Who did they interview,
Speaker 3: what sorts of documents did they collect bank records other
Speaker 3: types of records That would shed even more light as
Speaker 3: to how that sort of actored into the deal that
Speaker 3: he signed that kind of spared him from federal charges.
Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, Preston Trump signed the Epstein Files
Speaker 2: Transparency Act. This is a law that requires the Justice
Speaker 2: supermit to release those investigative files. When we say the
Speaker 2: Epstein files, what does that mean? It's a term we
Speaker 2: kind of throw around, but what exactly is in that
Speaker 2: corpus of documents?
Speaker 3: What that is is the government's records, everything that they
Speaker 3: amassed during the course of their investigation. And it's FBI records,
Speaker 3: it's Justice Department records. It actually would arguably consist of
Speaker 3: records from other agencies as well, Treasury Department, the Financial
Speaker 3: Crimes Enforcement Network, Securities and Exchange Commission. So it was
Speaker 3: unknown what these files actually contained, and I dug into that.
Speaker 3: I was really interested in learning what could these files
Speaker 3: actually be. So I dug into a case that had
Speaker 3: been under the radar for nearly nine years, and that's
Speaker 3: a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that was filed by
Speaker 3: a reporter who worked for Radar Online Radars of publication
Speaker 3: that by the way. Jeffrey Epstein was an investor in
Speaker 3: way way back, and during the course of my reporting
Speaker 3: and research into this case, I came across an index,
Speaker 3: and basically that index described it is sort of broad
Speaker 3: general descriptions what kinds of records that the FBI had
Speaker 3: as it related to Jeffrey Epstein and the investigation that
Speaker 3: took place between two thousand and five and two thousand
Speaker 3: and eight and the reporter they got about a thousand
Speaker 3: pages of these records, but the vast majority, more than
Speaker 3: ten thousand pages had been withheld. So in this index
Speaker 3: it actually showed that there were photographs, perhaps that's not
Speaker 3: a surprise, communications with foreign governments, communications related to his
Speaker 3: financial records, many interviews with witnesses or people that were
Speaker 3: important to question during that investigation. Obviously you know, interviews
Speaker 3: with victims. But it really showed that the investigation was
Speaker 3: not just at least the way I read it, not
Speaker 3: just completely centered in the US. There was also it
Speaker 3: was a little bit global. The FBI was looking outside
Speaker 3: of the US as well as they were probing Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 3: So that index really kind of laid bare what would
Speaker 3: arguably be in the files.
Speaker 2: So you've reported Jason that this index alone is one
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy pages, So that suggests that Justice Superman
Speaker 2: has a lot of.
Speaker 3: Documentsnumber of records that were withheld from the request in
Speaker 3: that case. At the time, they pegged it at around
Speaker 3: ten thousand pages. But that's just actually a sliver. That's
Speaker 3: just a sliver of everything the Justice Department and FBI collected,
Speaker 3: because we now know based on the fact that over
Speaker 3: the summer the Justice Department and the FBI issued a
Speaker 3: joint statement that said we are actually not going to
Speaker 3: release anything. They disclosed that they actually amassed three hundred
Speaker 3: gigabytes of data and records and all of that, but
Speaker 3: they didn't describe really what those records were. So the
Speaker 3: index is showing that there are many different categories of
Speaker 3: records that the FBI has.
Speaker 2: You mentioned what was happening over the course of the summer,
Speaker 2: the Justice s Perman's reluctance unwillingness to release this information,
Speaker 2: and suffice to say, a lot has changed since then.
Speaker 2: I mentioned that law. There was all of this resistance
Speaker 2: among Republicans to pass that law. In fact, it was
Speaker 2: passed to assigned by the President pretty quickly thereafter. What
Speaker 2: is the Justice Department supposed to release in the next
Speaker 2: few days.
Speaker 3: By law, they are supposed to release within thirty days
Speaker 3: everything everything, which is kind of unreal, right because we're
Speaker 3: talking about three hundred gigabytes of data and they are
Speaker 3: supposed to just turn that over to the househover Site
Speaker 3: and Government Reform Committee, and they are permitted to withhold
Speaker 3: temporarily some records if it relates to an ongoing investigation.
Speaker 3: They are permitted to withhold the names of some victims,
Speaker 3: and if they redact anyone else's name, the committee needs
Speaker 3: to know about it. So there has kind of been
Speaker 3: a wait and see as to will they turn everything
Speaker 3: over to the committee, because they really would be remarkable.
Speaker 3: You're talking about it, you know, a transfer of a massive,
Speaker 3: massive trove of records.
Speaker 2: How much of that can we expect to be made public?
Speaker 2: Since Trump took office, his administration has shown hesitation about
Speaker 2: releasing everything. So what could the DOJ hold back and
Speaker 2: could there be other ways to crack open the Epstein files.
Speaker 1: That's after the break.
Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Bloomberg investigative reporter Jason Leopold about what
Speaker 2: we can expect from the Epstein files and how the
Speaker 2: government has approached releasing them. I think what a lot
Speaker 2: of people want to know, including a very vocal camp
Speaker 2: of Trump supporters, is the full extent of Jeffrey Epstein's
Speaker 2: activities and how a lot of prominent people fit into those.
Speaker 2: And President Trump, of course, on the campaign trails, said
Speaker 2: he would release these files to the Attorney General. Pimbondi
Speaker 2: immediately released a trans of documents to a lot of
Speaker 2: fanfare and then came under fire because a lot of
Speaker 2: those documents were already out there in the public domain.
Speaker 2: After that, she basically ordered the FBI director ordered Cash
Speaker 2: Pattel to bring the DOJ Moore documents. You have reported
Speaker 2: on how the FBI handled those documents, handled that request.
Speaker 1: What did you learn?
Speaker 3: I was very interested after the botched rollout of what
Speaker 3: Pam Bondi called phase one of the release of the
Speaker 3: Epstein files, after that happened, and the director of what's
Speaker 3: given to Cash Pattel, is very interested in what was
Speaker 3: going on behind the scenes because now at the time
Speaker 3: this was, you know, around March, there are about one
Speaker 3: thousand FBI agents and other FBI person at people, yeah,
Speaker 3: who were tasked with reviewing the Epstein files redacting it
Speaker 3: and making it available for you know, for public release.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to get an idea of what was
Speaker 3: going on behind the scenes, so I filed a FOY request.
Speaker 3: We ultimately, we being Bloomberg and and myself ultimately sued
Speaker 3: the FBI to obtain those records. And a couple of
Speaker 3: weeks ago got the first batch of records and it
Speaker 3: was about sixty pages of emails. But what was fascinating
Speaker 3: about these emails It kind of put you behind the
Speaker 3: scenes at the FBI to see how they were working
Speaker 3: really really quickly to review and redact the record.
Speaker 1: So redact is very important.
Speaker 3: They actually called it Special Reaction Project, but at the
Speaker 3: same time they called it Epstein Transparency Project. That was
Speaker 3: a little weird seeing that Epstein Transparency Project and.
Speaker 1: Special Reaction Project.
Speaker 3: I think one of the key takeaways from those records
Speaker 3: is that it showed that Dan Bongino, the deputy director,
Speaker 3: he was in the loop as discussions were taking place
Speaker 3: over reactions cash Ptel was seeking updates. There were actually
Speaker 3: nine hundred and thirty four agents and other personnel who
Speaker 3: worked on it, and that the FBI ultimately paid for
Speaker 3: six days of work a million dollars in overtime to
Speaker 3: agents and others who clocked in, you know, extra hours
Speaker 3: working on the Epstein files.
Speaker 2: What could you tell us that you gleaned from those
Speaker 2: documents about what was at the center of those deliberations,
Speaker 2: how they were deciding what to redact.
Speaker 3: You know, I wish I could tell you that that's
Speaker 3: what the document showed, but the FBI withheld that information.
Speaker 1: I was able to just see is that they.
Speaker 3: Had PowerPoint trainings on what to redact, how to process
Speaker 3: and redact, and what should be redacted. That there was
Speaker 3: also you know, a paper that was presented to the
Speaker 3: Justice Department on the final overview of the Epstein files,
Speaker 3: but again they withheld that. But it allows us to
Speaker 3: chip away a bit at kind of finding out what
Speaker 3: was happening behind the scenes and how this this process worked.
Speaker 3: And what we can tell is that it really was
Speaker 3: isolated to maybe just two and a half months. They
Speaker 3: were working so much during that two and a half
Speaker 3: month timeframe to get this ready, and ultimately what happened
Speaker 3: is nothing was released.
Speaker 2: You've been doing this for a long time, so you
Speaker 2: know the kind of grounds for redaction. Generally speaking, here,
Speaker 2: I imagine there's the potential for maybe an inclination to
Speaker 2: redact something because of the potential political embarrassment, any sense
Speaker 2: of the greed, which that's weighing on the agents who
Speaker 2: are going through all of us. If that's part of
Speaker 2: the mandate that they've gotten here to keep an eye
Speaker 2: out for who might be surfaced in these documents.
Speaker 3: They're not supposed to not supposed to redact anything because
Speaker 3: it would cause embarrassment or embarrass any one particular person
Speaker 3: or many individuals. They are supposed to apply reactions in
Speaker 3: kind of accordance with the FOYA, the nine exemptions under FOYA.
Speaker 3: Now this is they're not releasing records as a result
Speaker 3: of a Foyer request, but that's the guidelines that they're using.
Speaker 3: So that means that they are withholding information for personal privacy,
Speaker 3: could be national security, could be an ongoing investigation, could
Speaker 3: be you know, attorney client privilege, and that's what they're
Speaker 3: supposed to do. I learned during the course of my
Speaker 3: reporting that you know, Trump's name appears in these records
Speaker 3: and that his name was redacted. There's no evidence that
Speaker 3: there was any wrongdoing by Trump for appearing in the records.
Speaker 3: The argument was they were redacting it for privacy reasons
Speaker 3: because at the time Trump was a private city s
Speaker 3: he wasn't the president of the United States.
Speaker 2: So there is suffice to say a lot of anti disipation.
Speaker 2: You know, what's the Justice Department going to release by
Speaker 2: this deadline of on or around December nineteenth, if my
Speaker 2: math is right, for the thirty day period after this
Speaker 2: legislation was signed into law. If the Justice Department decides
Speaker 2: to hold back some or all of these documents, have
Speaker 2: we in effect hit a wall? What recourse do people
Speaker 2: have if the release in mid December isn't as comprehensive
Speaker 2: as lawmakers and others are expecting. It's a really good question.
Speaker 2: And you know, I want to bring us back to that.
Speaker 3: Radar lawsuit right that lawsuit is still active, that is
Speaker 3: still winding its way through the courts. In fact, that
Speaker 3: attorney has appealed the decision by the judge that that
Speaker 3: found in favor of the Justice Department that they would
Speaker 3: withhold the vast majority of the records due to ongoing
Speaker 3: you know, investigations, and so there's a hearing coming up
Speaker 3: in the Second Circuit here in New York in January.
Speaker 3: I truly do believe that the best chance the public
Speaker 3: has at actually seeing those records, is through this Freedom
Speaker 3: of Information Act lawsuit or through a Freedom of Information
Speaker 3: Act request.
Speaker 2: I want to get your sense of this moment and
Speaker 2: all that we're learning in this moment. So we've been
Speaker 2: talking about these government documents, the work of the House
Speaker 2: Committee on Oversight. It's been releasing emails and photos and
Speaker 2: banking details. Over the course of this year. You've filled
Speaker 2: in a lot of details about Epstein. The've emerged in
Speaker 2: his personal emails. You know, as we're speaking, news is
Speaker 2: breaking that a judge in Florida is going to allow
Speaker 2: the release of grand jury documents from case in Florida.
Speaker 2: Talk a bit about sort of the way this dam
Speaker 2: that has been in place for many years is starting
Speaker 2: to break down, that that information is starting to come
Speaker 2: out in a way that it hasn't in years past.
Speaker 3: The fact that we are starting to see a break
Speaker 3: in the dam is due to that kind of pressure
Speaker 3: that has been placed upon those who hold the keys
Speaker 3: to the safe where these documents and other types of
Speaker 3: records are being held, and demands by certainly by victims, victims,
Speaker 3: attorneys and lawmakers who are also realizing how did this happen?
Speaker 3: You know whether it's the controversial Plea agreement or how
Speaker 3: was Epstein able to fund sex trafficking operations. So lots
Speaker 3: of questions that have been asked the role of financial institutions,
Speaker 3: what the role is they played in facilitating all of that. So,
Speaker 3: all of these questions, as well as the promises that
Speaker 3: have been made to release the files, has really changed
Speaker 3: the moment that you know we're in now because it
Speaker 3: changed the story from Jeffrey Epstein being convicted of a
Speaker 3: sex crime in Florida, being arrested for X trafficking, you know,
Speaker 3: dying in his jail cell, to a big political story.
Speaker 2: My last question has to do with this expected release
Speaker 2: when we talk about three or gigabytes to the late person,
Speaker 2: what is that?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Man, I don't heart defiled them it. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: just voluminous. It will keep us busy for a really,
Speaker 3: really long time if.
Speaker 2: We do get a release of that size. Where do you,
Speaker 2: Jason Leopold, go first? What are the biggest questions that
Speaker 2: you have and where are you most hopeful that you're
Speaker 2: going to find yeah, new information.
Speaker 3: I'll also speak from my team as well, the you know,
Speaker 3: the areas that we're most interested in our money. We
Speaker 3: want to continue following the money. As I mentioned, one
Speaker 3: of the big stories from the series that we've reported
Speaker 3: has to do with a previously unknown money laundering investigation
Speaker 3: that took place alongside the sex crimes investigation in two
Speaker 3: thousand and seven. In two thousand and we were able
Speaker 3: to reveal a lot of details around that investigation, but
Speaker 3: we really didn't get a good reason as to what ultimately.
Speaker 1: Happened as to why it was shut down.
Speaker 3: You know, was it simply a result of you know,
Speaker 3: Epstein accepting the plea deal and pleading guilty and stakehourt
Speaker 3: or was there something else?
Speaker 1: Jason, Thank you very much. Thank you.
Speaker 2: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News.
Speaker 1: I'm David Germ.
Speaker 2: If you want to hear more from Jason about prying
Speaker 2: loose government documents, check out his new show Disclosure wherever
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