00:00:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and today I'm talking about the financial case for moving abroad with Rochelle Gamblam Okay, So Spain, Vietnam, Tanzania, Georgia, the Georgia and Europe, not the one I live in. If you ever catch yourself daydreaming about building a life somewhere far beyond the borders of the US, there's a lot to love about living here, of course, but for many, the poll to see more of the world it just never goes away. And what's fascinating is that moving abroad isn't just a lifestyle decision, it can be a financial one too. Different countries, they come with different costs and entirely different ways of thinking about work, money, community and quality of life. So my guest today is Rochelle, the founder of Move Abroad Coach. She spent more than twelve years living across a half a dozen countries and it has helped over three thousand people navigate the leap to move overseas, and through that work, she's gained a unique perspective on how where you live can just dramatically shape your life and your finances, often in ways most people never stop to consider. So today we're talking about the real pros and cons of leaving your home country behind the money, the mindset shifts, the trade offs and the opportunities. Rochelle, great to have you here, Thanks for joining me.

00:01:30
Speaker 2: And thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to dive into this topic with everyone today.

00:01:35
Speaker 1: Me too. Me too is an interesting one and usually people don't go to such extremes right to save money, like, eh, maybe I'll just pick up move halfway across the globe. But some people might be compelled to after this conversation, or at least find it interesting food for thought. But the first question I ask everyone who comes on the show is what their craft beer equivalent is? What do you like to splurgehn in the here now, even while you're saving and investing for your future.

00:01:57
Speaker 2: Well, I had a conversation about this with my book key the other day because she was coming at me a little bit for what I was spending on something, and I said, you know, for me, it's not like clothes chooser bags. For me, it's coaching and personal development. So I've had the same business coach for years, like I've been working with her for years masterminds. But I was even last year went on an intensive Enneagram personal development retreat that I didn't know what I was getting myself into. It was like five years of therapy in five days. So that kind of stuff, I'm like all about it. So anything, I'm like, yeah, I think of it as an investment. That's that's how I rationalize it myself.

00:02:39
Speaker 1: Cultivating the inner world? Is it is worth the investment oftentimes? Right the things we can learn about ourselves, the way we can grow. So I love that you prioritize that. Do you have like a line at them in your budget for that? And are you because it sounds like it's something you spend quite a bit of money on, like eve even like destination uh, destination spots right, Like oh, I'm spending a week in a place to to do some of this work.

00:03:03
Speaker 2: Me doing a two month scouting trip with my husband and one year old that was a tax right off. But in terms of the coaching and personal development, my bookkeeper flagged it to me and she's like, this is a large amount of our business money going to coaching and all of that. And I said, well, I guess we just got to make more money then, That's how we can get that percentage down because I'm not giving it up.

00:03:28
Speaker 1: To business spend more on that stuff. Yeah, okay, take me back to your first experience living abroad, because it sounds more like a nightmare than a dream. What did you learn from that experience? What was it like and what'd you learn?

00:03:41
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, I actually I'm very different than a lot of the clients that I work with. I moved abroad at twenty two years old, just straight out of college, and I moved to China. So that was my first destination and I didn't have a confidence necessarily to do it alone.

00:03:56
Speaker 1: You know.

00:03:57
Speaker 2: I studied abroad on a study abroad program, and so I thought, well, the next logical step is a teach abroad program, because they're going to look out for me, They're going to take care of me. And at this point, this was before digital nomad visas existed, before remote work was really a thing. I mean it was like thirteen years ago. So yeah, so I trusted this teach a broad program to look out for me, and they placed me alone on this factory line highway where it was the only non Chinese person for miles and I had signed a contract that I hadn't really fully done the math on. But basically, if I wanted to leave my school early, I could owe them up to eight thousand US dollars, which was also my entire salary for the entire year. And I was working for a school that wasn't legally allowed to hire me, so the school my visa was not actually the school I was working for, which is super legal despite me meeting all the legal requirements. So that experience, it was definitely an experience. It was really a learning lesson, but that is actually what I learned, so many lessons. It was such a good tunity for growth. But that experience really is what lit a fire under me to help other people have a better experience than I did, because I was realizing through at a travel blog at the time, so many people were coming to me saying, I want to do this. I want to move to China, I want to move abroad, but I don't want what happened to you to happen to me. And by living abroad, I met so many people in much better positions than I was in because they'd done it themselves and they'd done the research. And now with the emergence of online work and digital nomad visas and things like that. The world's really your oyster, and so I want people to feel empowered to design their own journey overseas, to be in the country they want to be in, in the city they want to be in, doing work that they love, and making a lot more than eight thousand dollars a year. So that's why I do what I do.

00:05:54
Speaker 1: My goodness, did you end up leaving that that first school position early? Just biting the bullet?

00:06:01
Speaker 2: I actually decided to stay because I had also had another clause in my contract that said that if I wanted to leave my job, I couldn't get another job elsewhere, Like there was a non compete clause. Okay, granted, now, if I could go back in time and coach myself, I would say, eh, chances of them coming after you on that when they're not even legally allowed you're not even illegally allowed to work for them pretty slim. But I did stick it out for the full year, and it was really an experience to live in a town where you were the only non Chinese person, like I was kind of a celebrity. I got invited to a lot of people's houses, that is for dinner. Taxi drivers would be like, hey, I drove you once six months ago. I'm like cool, so everyone knew who I was.

00:06:44
Speaker 1: That's that is neat all, right, that's an experience. I went to China a long time ago and got stocked randomly for photographs because I'm six ft six and people were like, oh, wow, yeah, who's this guy? Let me take a photo with you? And at first I was like, this is weird, and then I was like, now this is kind of cool. I'm done with this. But it turns out just more Americas are moving abroad right, like we've just seen. I think one. It's just it's easier to get around than ever before. It's easier to travel. Think about travel twenty five years ago versus today. It's less expensive, it's simplified. Even language barriers have been largely removed. But I guess my question for you is moving abroad for everyone or are there particular characteristics that make someone a better candidate than someone else.

00:07:31
Speaker 2: I would say moving abroad is for anyone that wants it right, but you have to want to do it right. Like I'm not going to sit here on your podcast and be like, yes, if you would like to create more wealth for yourself and have more money, you have to move abroad. It's like, no, if you've had a dream to do this, we can make it work. And I've said to many people who come to me and say, is this possible for me? Is this realistic? Which let's be real I hate that word, but is this possible? Is this something I could actually do? If you have the ability to get up at like a passport that allows you to live in another country. I've never talked with someone that I couldn't where. We couldn't make it work if it's what you want. But you have to be open to the opportunities. So the pathway to get there might look a little bit different than what you originally thought. But if you're willing to work with me, or if you're willing to be open, we can make it work.

00:08:25
Speaker 1: What misconceptions do people have about moving abroad in general? I think some people probably have like a fantasy notion of what it's going to be like and coconuts on the beach in the hammock when I move abroad. But my guess is moving abroad is not like a perpetual pication. Maybe it can look a little bit more like that. I don't know, but you do mystify that for me. What should people expect when they move to another country and how does reality differ from potentially the fantasy in the head.

00:08:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really great question. I think that's a fear that a lot of people have, is what if I move abroad and I hate it and I'm not happy, and I've sold my house and I've gotten rid of all my stuff. And really this is where doing something like a scouting trip to actually see what it's like to live in the destination can be really really helpful. So this is not a vacation. It's where you go and you just experience, like you book kind of a hotel or an airbnb style place in a destination where like in a neighborhood where you might feasibly live, you know, you go to a co working space and get some work done, and you go to cafes, you go to you know, the types of restaurants that you would feasibly eat at. Because that's the thing. When you live abroad, you're not on a vacation. Like I still work, right, I still work, you know, I work from home at my own home office. But you know, I go out and I do fun things like I go scuba diving, I go to the beach, I go hiking, like I do all of that stuff. But I live a life here. You know. My my daily routine is, you know, walk my daughter the minutes to her daycare and then you know, if I want to stop at a cafe and have a coffee, I can. I start my work day a little later because I live in Spain, right, So I still so.

00:10:10
Speaker 1: I incorporate a map in the afternoon too, right, you have to in Spain contractually obligated.

00:10:16
Speaker 2: I haven't gotten that far yet. On the weekends I do, but during the workday I haven't. I still haven't figured out how to make that work yet. But like you know, I go to the gym. You know, it's it's one of those things where I have that normal everyday routine. But I have it with Spanish characteristics or Chinese characteristic is when I live in China, right, So it's you know, you adapt to the local culture, but you're not on vacation. For most of us, we're still working. If you are working, right, you know, you have your everyday routine and in that way, this. I guess this is another misconception. Moving abroad or living abroad is not as expensive as it might be if you were on vacation, going to splurge worthy restaurants every night, going on to weres, you know, hopping on planes or trains to other cities, Like you're living there, so you're not really spending what you would spend on vacation as well.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and that's even just when you talk about like long travel versus short travel. Long travel can ultimately end up being so much less costly if you stay a month in some place versus a week in someplace at least average price per night. And it's even that price goes down even more right when you actually live in that place and you're living kind of like a local. What reasons do you typically hear from people of why they want to move abroad? Is it also is it like cultural? Is it a desire to save money? Is it kind of like a dissatisfaction with the current stock American lifestyle? They want to shake things up? Like, what are you usually hearing from people who want to move?

00:11:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, the people who come to me. It's funny. I actually did an episode on this recently on my own podcast. But yeah, so I would say the people that come to me have always had this design. They've had it for a long time where they have just wanted to experience another culture, experience life in another country, or they love to travel, and they've been thinking about it more and more. But there are specific reasons why people tend to take the leap, and I would say, actually the most common one, there's about seven or eight I can think of off the top of my head, but I would say the strongest one is dissatisfaction because I'm mainly working with people from the US, dissatisfaction with the US kind of work life culture, if that makes sense, And how I talk with a lot of people who are stuck in a bit of a cycle where they're working sixty to eighty hours a week doing a job that pays well, but cost of living is so high they can't create the savings that they want. And then as soon as they do create a cash cushion, one healthcare emergency comes, either for themselves or for a pet or something and completely decimates their savings. And then they feel like they're spinning their wheels and they're not getting anywhere, and you know, and then when you add in life that revolves around a car and that kind of hustle culture mentality that the US has, there's this feeling of wouldn't my life be better if I lived somewhere that prioritized walkability and working a little bit less and things cost a little bit less. And if you work for yourself in any capacity, or you have passive income or savings, you could just take that, or you're consultant, you just take that income and then move to that country and then not be so stressed about money. Do you think and actually to enjoy your life a bit more.

00:13:42
Speaker 1: Do you think that has to mean moving abroad or do you think there are locations inside the United States that offer some of those some of those benefits of greater levels of walkability where it's not ridiculously insanely expensive. And are people like maybe missing out on some locations to live inside of the United States that don't involve moving to another country. Not trying to disuade people from doing that if they want to, but I mean, have you found that, like, man, there's some spots in the Midwest that kind of hit some of those sweet spots for you and maybe you don't want to move to Spain or Portugal or something like that, and maybe that would be better for you if.

00:14:20
Speaker 2: That's what you want, right, And that's the thing, And then that's what I've seen in the US is typically the places that are more affordable and smaller are also even more car dependent. Yes, right, And this is every time I go back to the US. I'm just baffled by the fact I was just in the US for like a women's like business retreat that I was on because of course, investing in my personal and business development. And I was staying at this hotel and there was a Walmart literally across the road, and I'm like, perfect, there's a little kitchen my hotel. I'm going to get some stuff so I just have things in my room. I couldn't get there.

00:14:58
Speaker 1: There was no there was no highways.

00:15:01
Speaker 2: Fiveway highway, and I'm like, yes, Google Map says it's a five minute walk. I'm like, but how do I get across the street without dying? And it ended up taking me about twenty minutes to get there because of how far I had to walk. And I finally find a crosswalk and I'm pushing the button, and the button won't change, like it's broken. So I had to just run across this highway and hope that no one hit me. I found a different way home that was a little bit safer, thankfully, But I'm like, this is crazy, Like even when we got into the parking lot, there was nowhere for me to walk. Meanwhile, here in Spain, I have five grocery stores within like five minutes walk in my house that are all really good and super affordable.

00:15:36
Speaker 1: And even places in the US that have better infrastructure oftentimes just because of the culture, Like even where I live there's decent walking infrastructure, not great biking infrastructure, but like just people will slow down for pedestrians, and so part of it is really it's just like a mindset that the car is king Like I get honked at when I'm on my bike just on the road, even though that's where I'm supposed to be biking. The cars is I'm supposed to be on the sidewalk. That's not the case, right, But it's just kind of our general perception and then our way of dealing with walkers and bikers, and it's frustrating to me as someone who values both of those things. Let's say someone is listening right now, and they've got kids and they're about to turn us off. So like this sounds cool. Maybe if I was like twenty three or something like that, or even if I was like young and married, then maybe this sort of adventure sounds feasible. But is this applicable to families too?

00:16:29
Speaker 2: So I have a two year old, and so I actually gave birth overseas, but I work with a lot of families that have older kids, and this is completely feasible, right, And obviously the transition is going to be a little bit different depending on their age range, right, if you have very young kids. We've had families have quite good success literally just putting their kids into public school with very limited knowledge of the language and they just pick it up all the way through homeschooling and world schooling, intern national schools, bilingual schools. So it's really just a schooling that we need to look at and that might influence our country choice, especially looking at the costs of international schools and things like that, which can be quite expensive in certain countries. But in terms of relocating with kids, it's kids and pets. People come to me kids, pets, health conditions, evert them all. But you know, I regularly work with families that want to relocate, and I think, you know, part of the reason why many families are coming to me is just in this kind of a matter of fact thing like safety in schools in the US with gun violence, like that is a reason why families come to me to move because they don't feel comfortable sending their kids to school in their local school district. So we I work with a lot of families and it is completely possible to relocate overseas.

00:17:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you told me, and I'll quote you said, I've seen firsthand how moving countries can shift the cost of living by thirty to sixty percent, changing access to healthcare and childcare, and allowing people to build a lifestyle that actually aligns with their financial goals without extreme frugality. And I do think like, given kind of the conditions in lots of the United States, I was talking with an Uber driver this morning and he's like, gosh, it's so tough to make it in this country now, and I think for a large segment of population that is not untrue. So can you offer maybe some examples of how moving abroad provides a solution to some of these cost of living challenges that people face.

00:18:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the main thing is if you can take your current income overseas, that's where we see this cost of living benefit for you, right, And so for example, you know, if you work for yourself, or you have a completely location independent job where they don't care if you live overseas, or you're a consultant, like a consultant or a freelancer, or you are retired or have passive income, if we can take that income overseas to a place with a lower cost of living, Like, that's basic a rhythmic, right, Like in order to create savings and wealth, it's money, like the money that we have minus our expenses. And so I think a really kind of conservative estimate would be even if you're moving to a more expensive country, let's say like the Netherlands or something like that, which is super visa friendly for people from the US who work for themselves, by the way, and like that's not a super affordable country, right, Like if we're looking at Netherlands versus let's say Thailand, right, very different expenses there. So let's say you move to the Netherlands, I think a really you know, like an estimate that I would be super comfortable giving most peoples, let's say you save one five hundred dollars a month by moving in your cost of living expenses, probably a lot more, but let's use let's use a number that could feasibly happen even in a higher cost of living country. One five hundred dollars. But when you times that by twelve, that's eighteen grand that you didn't have right by the end of the year, and so you could invest at or you could you know, use that to you know, start a business or whatever you want to do, write create savings and wealth for yourself. And that is a more expensive country. You know, when I first started my business, I was living into Bleas, Georgia, and my rent was five hundred dollars a month and my healthcare was thirty I have private healthcare thirty seven dollars a month.

00:20:25
Speaker 1: That's what I've said, right. It was decent accommodations, it.

00:20:29
Speaker 2: Was horrible, No, it was amazing, a one bedroom place right in a great part of town, with a grocery store right under me, public transportation right there. It was beautiful. You know, wine super cheap, and cheese is incredible. Like I had a great quality of life. And then when I wanted to upgrade, Oh, I'm spending one two hundred dollars a month for a nice two bedroom, two bathroom, fully furnished place, you know, with two balconies. And even here in Spain, I'm spending for my rent just cause people will probably want to know the money. I'm spending two thousand dollars a month on rent for a four bedroom, fully furnished, two bathroom place with a view of the Mediterranean.

00:21:09
Speaker 1: That's pretty that's for you said two thousand, and I was like, Okay, you could probably find something like that's not that's not a huge an amazing deal. And then you say furnished, four bedrooms sick view, and I'm like, okay, that's pretty good deal.

00:21:22
Speaker 2: No. I mean, I was just in Franklin, just outside Nashville, and I was in a car with a few other women. They were like, oh, I was looking online and oh the places here are so cute. They're only two thousand a month for a one bedroom. And then the back of the seat, I'm like oh, and they're like, oh, Rachelle, how much are you spending in rent? Like, well, two thousand dollars for a four bedroom, fully furnsched place. But that's the difference, right, And that's how we kind of break that cycle. If you know, I have people say to me, should I need to pay off all my debt before I move abroad? And I'm like, why would you do that? Just if you're struggling to pay it off now? Why not just wait until you get overseas and pay it off then? And I I lived this really. The first time I experienced this was when I was working as a college counselor in China and I had just an okay salary by US standards, But I saved forty thousand dollars in two years and I didn't even really try that hard.

00:22:13
Speaker 1: And so you're finding that this is a way for people to not just lower their cost of living, but then accelerate debt payoff, accelerate their ability to invest to reach financial independence because they're reducing their cost of living so meaningfully.

00:22:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And if this is a big priority for you, we can factor that in, right, Like if wealth creation is a big priority for you, or if you want to be in a place with the lower cost of living while you start your new business or whatever you know, venture that you have. There are many countries that I prioritize for people if that's the case. But even when we look at you know, I had a let's say Norway, this is a very pricey country. I had a family move there from Chicago and they said it's cheaper than Chicago to live there.

00:23:01
Speaker 1: Wow. That's yeah, that's not That's not what I would have predicted. That's I visited Norway and it was crazy expensive. So the thought of living there for lesson living in Chicago's crazy. I want to specifically cover like the job stuff with you and what it looks like to make an income if you oversees. We'll get to some questions on that and kind of dive into some details about kind of making this work. Right after this our way back from the break, still talking about the financial case removing abroad with Rachelle Gamblum and Man's I want to dive into the job stuff because you have made a few allusions to if you have if you keep your US based job right, and for a lot of people that's easier than ever right especially post pandemic, Like we've opened Pandora's box in terms of work from anywhere, which is awesome in so many ways. So, yeah, are most people moving with a job that's portable or are they looking for work in the country where they're moving to.

00:24:07
Speaker 2: That is a great question. I would say people are doing all sorts of different things. And what I have seen is this challenge where people with fully remote jobs ask their job if I can you know if we could take that abroad, And I have strategies for how to get this conversation going, which we can talk about today, But typically the answer is no, they don't want you to take it outside the US, mainly for tax reasons, healthcare reasons, and time zone reasons, sometimes also security reasons. And so one thing that we can do is ask them to switch you to a ten ninety nine contractor like if you're from the US, so that then they are not responsible for the taxes of the healthcare. You handle that, which is fine because you're moving to a country where that's going to be a little bit easier and more affordable for you. And so that's one route that we do. But what I've seen time and time again is where people get stuck. And I think anyone who's tried to move abroad and go the job route, like the full time job route will probably relate to what I'm about to say, is you're applying for job after job after job after job for these fully remote worldwide companies, and you're either not hearing back from any of them, or you talk to them and they're not actually fully remote worldwide. They still want you to come into the office, or they still want you to be based in a certain place in the US. And then you start looking at jobs on the ground and you realize the salaries in many of these countries are a lot lower, or you're not getting the jobs that you want to get the country.

00:25:42
Speaker 1: Salary gig it. It kind of almost defeats the purpose in some ways, right.

00:25:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean unless the money purpose. Yes, if you want the purposes to be abroad, sure fine, yeah, But I would say Germany is the one country that I've had a lot of luck with with people getting jobs on the ground. But what happened is, here's the thing, when's the last time I had a normal job. It's been a while. I work for myself, and so I'm seeing all of these incredibly talented, intelligent, capable people just be so beaten down by this process and so discouraged and spend months and months and months and months applying. And I was bringing career coaches into my program, like we were going all out with this, and I'm sitting here and I'm like, why are we doing this? If you worked for yourself as a contractor or a freelancer, you coached in this thing that you know so much about, we could have had clients and you could have been living in another country six months ago. And so I really was looking at what's working and what's getting money in the door quickly, and what's allowing people to move. And I went all in on helping people who either work for themselves in any capacity or want to passive income or retirees, right because I'm like, we need a freedom income to get you overseas, and let's take that into your own hands. Especially if you want to create more wealth for yourself. If you work for yourself, you can just do that. Like you can just make more money if you want to, right, Like, honestly, I've seen it for myself. Once I got things going, I've been able to double the revenue in my business year after a year after year, either double it or almost double it. Even when I take two months off. The year I took two months off from maternity leave, we still doubled our business revenue that year. So my thought process is, if we get the right system in place, you can like that is another path for wealth creation and options in addition to also living abroad at the same time, and.

00:27:37
Speaker 1: If people are able to retain a good income when they move to a cheaper cost of living location, that makes it easier. There's like a Shmorgas sport of options, right. You can you can work part time, you can travel more, you can live at a slower pace, or you can live a fatter lifestyle and continue to work as much as you were. Like it's it's kind of like one of those choose your own adventure books from when we were kids, Like, turn to page sixty two. Now you've made that choice. It seems like there's just there's more optionality.

00:28:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially with all of these visas coming out, I keep dropping the word digital nomad visa. That's basically a visa for if you work online and make your money from outside the country. So that's the visa I'm on in Spain is I make usd from clients outside of Spain and then I can just live in Spain for a year. Actually, my visa is good for three years, and I can keep renewing it and get permanent residency and after ten years get citizenships. So there are a lot of countries around the world that do these kinds of visas. I remember when the first digital nomad visa was announced in Estonia, I was already living abroad, So there's somewhat new. And it's because what we're doing is we're taking these four dollars and spending them locally in a way that spreads the wealth more so than tourists. Right, We're not just spending money in the tourist sector. We're renting from a local family. You know, I'm taking my daughter to local daycare, you know, going to restaurants outside the tourist areas. And so so many countries are seeing the benefit of that wealth infusion that they're making it quite easy for people like us to do this and live there. And now there's so many options.

00:29:16
Speaker 1: Are you keeping your financial life based in America or are you moving accounts to a local institution. How do you handle money? Because you said you're getting paid in US dollars, but then you're obviously spending the money that you're earning in local currency or through like credit cards. I'm assuming for the most part.

00:29:32
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I have a couple banking bigger things for you if you're curious. So basically what I do is, if I have the ability to spend on a credit card, I will do that, and I will use a travel hacking credit card. I use Capital one Venture X. It's my preferred one and that has no foreign transaction fees, so I just use that. Anytime a credit card is an option, I use that. And it's great because then I get points in miles to make my flights free, so that solves that expense right there. And then in terms of cash, what I do is I actually use something called Wyse, which is formally known as transfer Wise and so that yeah, I love Wise. So I pay myself into my US Wise account and then I can transfer a chunk of that to my Euro's Wise account and you just do it within the platform. And so that's then the money that I use to pay my babysitter and my school fee and my rent and all of that. So and the reason why I like Wise is because the exchange rate is the real exchange rate, not the horrible bank one, and you don't have to do like a wire like a whole wire transfer. It takes you know, two seconds max a day.

00:30:51
Speaker 1: So that's it was so expensive, right, Like the banks would charge such a significant fee, Like it's it's like going to one of the check cashing places in the States and you're like, why am I paying this much of my paycheck just to access my money? And why this has really kind of reduced the friction and the cost for people there, which is.

00:31:09
Speaker 2: All there is a fee, but it's just yeah, there's a fee, and then it's just based on the amount of money that you want to transfer. So I just I'm like, okay, I need X amount and I just transferred over to my euro account.

00:31:19
Speaker 1: So that's that's one of those details that people might think, oh sounds really hard and a headache, and maybe that would maybe trip me up from making this move. What are maybe some of the other big details that keep people from actually making the move or thinking that they can.

00:31:37
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I would say the details that come up pets, kids, healthcare, like those are the three big ones, and then yeah, what do I do with my house, do I rent it, out sell it, that whole thing. And then also just the idea that moving abroad is expensive and it's for other people and it's not for people like me. Those are the big ones. So I'm not sure if you're curious about any I could dive into healthcare.

00:32:02
Speaker 1: I want to hear about healthcare, ye, because I think that is one of the things. Obviously, you look at the inflation chart in the United States and healthcare is like through the roof, right, and that is especially in twenty twenty six, it has hit a fever pitch in terms of cost because of fewer subsidies for people. So they go to shop on the healthcare exchange and they're like, oh gosh, do I have to do I go with one of these health health sharing companies and spend five hundred dollars a month for my quote unquote coverage not having traditional health insurance. Or do I go on the healthcare exchange and spend two thousand dollars a month for real insurance. But then that's not even counting. That's just a premium. Right then what happens if I actually need health care? It's it's part time job kind of money is what you're working over. So what does healthcare look like in a lot of these you know, destinations that you're sending people to in terms of cost and in terms of access to care.

00:32:52
Speaker 2: I've unfortunately, I'm a little bit accident and illness prone. So I have experienced the health care system in many different countries. Actually, and I would say, yeah, unfortunately, I'm an expert, and I would say, we're talking about anxiety around transferring money on whyse like that takes two seconds. I have extreme anxiety around the US healthcare system and what's covered and what's not, because one wrong decision is thousands of dollars. You know, my mom went to a private hospital and not realizing it was private, you just moved to the area. They charged your five thousand dollars just to walk through the door. And I'm like, oh my god. What. And so I would say it really depends on where you're moving. But I have lived in many different countries and experienced many different healthcare systems, and I think a lot of people from the US especially have a little bit of fear around transferring your health like your health care overseas and costs and medications. But it is a fraction of what you'll pay even with insurance, not factoring in the insurance costs, and pretty much every country that I've lived in, you know, even in Spain, where I have the free government health insurance, it's not free because it's part of my taxes. It's part of my taxes. So you know, when we're looking at what I pay in taxes with health care included, it's probably going to be less than what I would pay for my taxes, my health care, and any additional costs in the US. So even if taxes might be a little bit higher, when you add them all up, the cost is lower. But it is just the idea that I can just go in and get treated and it's I don't have to worry about it. It lifts such a weight off your shoulders. Even if you're living in a country where let's say I don't have health care yet and I'm paying out of pocket and I just have travel insurance for emergencies, I'm always like, well, how much can it be? And it's never it's never a lot. It's like, oh, no, this test doesn't cover, Like how much is it? Oh, it's twenty six euros. And this is coming from the perspective too, of someone who, like I gave birth overseas in Georgia, which is, let's be real, a post Soviet developing country. Yeah, and a lot of people would be nervous to do that. But the quality of care that I received was fantastic. I had my own private birthing suite with a pull out couch bed for my husband and like our own private bathroom. I ended up having an unplanned sea section, and it's standard to stay in the hospital for five days, which is much longer than they have you stay in the US. Like, it went perfectly fine, but they it's standard to stay for five days, and the entire like, not only did they do a fantastic job, was very high quality, but the entire everything that I would have paid out of pocket, not including what my insurance covered. Like let's say I didn't have insurance and I paid out of pocket one eight hundred dollars.

00:35:52
Speaker 1: For every ally galy. This is this is why, even if you don't move abroad, medical tourism is growing in popularity quickly because hey, take a vaca. I have a friend who's actually going later this month to Great Britain because there's a doctor who does an experimental procedure that's not approved by the FDA, and he was able to get the health sharing company to pay for his whole trip because it's so much cheaper than getting the full on procedure that's FDA approved here in the States. It's amazing, I mean amazing ends at how much healthcare can cost and the things you have to do, including going abroad more and more in order to save money on that ridiculous expense. And it's good to know, just from your experience how much high quality healthcare there is in so many countries around the world, even countries you might assume or you might think, I can't have I can't give birth in Georgia. But it's I mean, it's nice to know, nice to hear from your own lips right that it's possible to get great health care and not pay ridiculous amount of money and not be like perpetually stressed about that as well. When you move abroad, talk to me about like are there a handful of country like where do people move to? Are there some specific places that you tend to funnel people towards or the people are most interested in that are in particular more nomad friendly.

00:37:11
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, I would say to there are the lists of the most popular ones for American that Americans tend to move to, and then they're the ones that I normally work with people to send them to. So I'll tell you some of my favorites. So I would say the most popular one that people come to me about is Spain. Spain is super popular. I would say it's always second most popular behind Portugal on the list of countries that Americans are all moving to. And I would say someone, yeah, literally, it's very hot outside right now, but yes. So I did a two month long scouting trip where I looked at Greece, Italy, and Spain and a bunch of different destinations, and there's a reason why so many people are moving to Spain. And I'm like, oh, do I really want to go where everyone's going? And actually the answer was yes, because it's just an incredible country and they have so many different visa options. My two favorites that I work with people on are the digital nomad visa and the non lucrative visa. So the non lucrative visas if you have extensive savings, let's say you've saved a lot or you sell a house and you have, you know, a cash question that you're moving with. You're not supposed to work on that visa though. That's the only thing, Okay, So that's the number one country that I send people to. The second one is going to surprise you. It's actually the Netherlands, and it's because, yeah, soul random, but they have this incredible visa called the DAFT Dutch American Friendship Treaty, and it's specifically for people who work for themselves, but you could be a freelancer as long as you have a couple different income sources or clients, they're fine with it. But you don't have to already have your business going. So most digital nomad visas they want to see that you have x amount coming into your account every month, like you have two eight hundred euros coming into your account every month, more if you have a partner or kids, whereas the DAFT they just want to see that you have a certain amount of a bank account and that you have a business idea and they're like, have fun. So this is a really great, super easy visa option if you're from the US specifically, and if you were doing anything in the realm of working for yourself. But you can even work on the ground, like we've had people be dog walkers and they get approved. So that's number two. France is also very popular. They have a long stay visa and an entrepreneur visa and this one, this one's going to shock you. Albania Okay, yes, so Albania and Georgia where I live. There's a reason why I lived in Georgia for five years. They are super super visa friendly. Now, Georgia is visa friendly for a lot of countries. Albania is visa friendly for Americans, so my poor Australian husband doesn't qualify for this. So basically you just can live there for a year visa free, like you just show up and you get a year. Now Georgia is it even more friendly. If you exit and re enter, they just give you another year and then if you've been living there for six months, you need to pay taxes. But if you work for yourself, it's one percent of your business revenue if you qualify under their individual entrepreneur scheme. So Georgia is very tax friendly. Albania just gives you the one year and then you do have to switch over to a digital nomad visa after that, but this is a really good starting point if you want to I mean both of them. The rent's quite affordable, but we've had people in Albania paying between three hundred to five hundred dollars in rent per month. So this is a really good country if you are transitioning to working for yourself or you're just wanting to save up money very quickly and build a cash cushion for yourself. We have a lot of people doing Albania because it's right next to Italy. You know, you can still easily hop around Europe super affordable flights. George is a little more George is a little harder to get around because it's more by like Turkey, Armenia, Ajan, so it's a little further east and all their flights are in the middle of the night, which is super annoying. But we have had a lot of people who moved to Georgia because of me, because I lived there for so long. But I would say Albania's in the top.

00:41:11
Speaker 1: And so people are often thinking of it as like a two year pit stop in order to dramatically like, hey, it's easier, easy to get the visa easy to like lower my cost, dramatically increase my cash cushion, or pay off my debt like that. That could be kind of like just a fun adventure for a year or two. That's super easy to pull off because the visa is easy to get and you can like radically reaching reshift your finances, your financial picture in that timeframe.

00:41:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're not the only area of the world with options. I mean, South Africa's got a digital nomad visa. They're a bunch in Central and South America, Asia, Like, we regularly send people to Thailand. I lived in Vietnam. It's not as visa friendly, but I lived in Vietnam for a bit, So we send people all over the world. But those are like my ones, Spain, Netherlands, France, and Albania. They just have this easier pathway. But if you're open, like Czech Republic, Estonia super easy to get digital nomad visas. Italy and Greece have them. You know, Germany has a freelancer visa. There are lots of different options.

00:42:21
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk a little bit about kind of the cultural differences and what it's like to land in a country like that, so I have a few questions for you about just kind of culture shock when moving abroad from America. We'll get to that right after this. We're back still talking with Rachelle. We're talking about moving abroad, and man, just we've already covered just a lot of the financial reasons why moving abroad can make a lot of sense. But then there's also I feel like, Rachelle, you've done a really good job kind of helping us walking us through what it looks like culturally to live somewhere else as well, and just how I don't know, I feel like there's that low grade hum some type of anxiety that you feel living in America. For certain things. There's certain broad access to opportunity that we have in the United States that a lot of the rest of the world, a lot of other parts of the world don't feel like they have the ability to start a business the way we do here in the United States. I don't think, but I guess I'm curious to dive into cultural differences a little bit more and what kind of prep work needs to be done in advance for someone who's moving to another country, whether it's Georgia or Spain. To think through that culture. Shock they're going to feel when they leave the United States. And maybe someone's good, maybe some of it's like hard.

00:43:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, one percent, And I completely agree with what you're saying. That's one amazing thing about the US is like that, Yeah, let's build a business. I just think we don't always make it super easy in terms of hell of care to actually work for yourself. But I'm like, yeah, let's take that culture bring it abroad with us. Is my philosophy. So yeah, in terms of the country that we're moving to, this is why I actually I love to start, not with the I would say practical logistical side of like what visas am I qualified for? Because usually what happens is people come to me and they say where can I go? And my answer is, what do you want? What do you want your life to look like? And so I often surprise people who come to me or I'm like, no, no, no, we're not just moving you overseas. We're creating a life that you love, that's actually aligned to you and what you want. So when I first went to China, my dream was to challenge myself. I wanted every day to be a new and exciting adventure I knew it was going to be hard. I knew I was going to be frustrated, and I knew this wasn't a forever move for me. I thought, you know, I'm just going to go for a couple of years and then I'll come back. That was the plan. My poor parents. It's been thirteen years now.

00:45:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you were looking for adventure, not to hit the easy button, whereas some people are like, give me the place where life is going to be the chillis.

00:45:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, or that aligns to what I want, right. I have people say to me, Spain sounds cool and fine, but I don't want to live in a place that's hot. I hate the beach and I don't like the sun. And I'm like, okay, don't move here, right, or like it's infuriating to me. I talked with someone who was living in Spain and moved to Iceland, and he was like, the bureaucracy and the inefficiency and the siesta just drove me nuts. And I just give me Iceland. They are so efficient and so organized, and I'm like, great, because that's what you want, right. And so this is where I've said to people I've never had because I do some you know, intensive work with people, and I've never had someone work with me in one of my more intensive coaching programs and had them move abroad and say, you, I hate this, I want to move back home. It's never happened, so knock on wood. But like, it's never happened in the history of my business. And it's because we do that work ahead of time of figuring out what you want, what kind of culture is aligned to you. And also, you know, it taken off the rose colored glasses a little bit because what happens, and I see this time and time again is I'll give you an example. I was talking about house hunting in Spain with my coaching clients and I mentioned the fact that dryers aren't really a thing like clothing dryers, and I was like, yeah, And I saw all these house and they had a dryer, which is kind of cool because I haven't had one of those in twelve years. And the chat blew up and everybody was panicking about the lack of dryers overseas, and I'm sitting here, I'm like, what's the problem, Like they're bad for your clothes anyway, Like I don't need I don't need I'd barely even use my dryer. And I realized something in that moment, where a lot of times we think that the country that we're moving to is going to be perfect. We have all these reasons for why we want to leave, and we're so excited about this country, and then we start to learn more about it and we realize, oh, it's not perfect. There's a housing shortage, or you know, there's a drought, or they don't have dryers, or you know, it's a little bit more difficult to get X y Z medication or whatever it is. And then we panic and we start thinking, well, I shouldn't leave my home because this country that I'm moving to isn't perfect. And I say better not perfect, Like there is no such thing as a perfect country. Every single country has its own flaws. I really like Spain. This could be a forever country for me. I've done a first not forever situation with living in like six countries, right, but there are still things where I'm like, what, like, still things that annoy me. But I intentionally moved here knowing that. And that's where I think moving abroad is like dating or marriage, right, Like if you have a partner they've got flaws, but if you're going to marry someone, you should know what those flaws are and are they manageable for you? Like are they doable for you? Right? And if it's a deal but.

00:48:12
Speaker 1: Somebody else exactly?

00:48:14
Speaker 2: Like you know, have you ever met someone that your friends dating and you're like love love that person for your friend, but not for me. Right. It's the same thing with countries, and so you're allowed to date, but you could go on a scouting trip that's like speed dating. Yeah, but it's it's all about finding a fit that's good for you rather than just staying in whatever you were born into, like that location just has to be your forever location or going in with the rose colored glasses and saying, well, everybody says this country is amazing and it's going to be perfect, and then getting there and being frustrated by the flaws. Like if you actually get to know the person that you're dating a little bit before you sign a binding contract, that's the equivalent of doing some destination research. Are going to visit it before you commit to living their long term?

00:49:04
Speaker 1: How how much it like we're seeing more crackdowns on tourism in many countries around the world, and just whether it's charging a fee or just general frustration from locals being like, my city is overrun with tourists in the summer. Right, Europe has experienced that. I feel like Amsterdam, right, is one of those places where they are just like annoyed at the point that so many tourists are flooding in. So what's what's the reception towards Americans who kind of plant their feet in a place where maybe tourism is frustrating to people? Are they do they feel the same way about digital nomads who are there for on like a longer term stay. How what's the reception, like, I guess for Americans who make that move.

00:49:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm really glad you asked this question because this is something that a lot of people are worried about, and it's precisely the people who do care, you know, are the ones that are that are worried their reception. So here's my thought process on that. I would say, you might on the internet see people who are mad about you moving there and say don't come here. But I have been living abroad for thirteen years and I have helped a lot of people move abroad and that's just not the experience on the ground. And so really the frustration is with over tourism and also housing shortages, not due to people, you know, with your long leases, but more with like holiday apartment rentals taking away And this happens in the US as well, right, taking away affordable housing from people who actually want to live there. And so if you move to a place and you you know, rent a long term lease, you're a little bit outside of the tourist area. You're spreading your money locally, you're attempting to learn the language, you're attempting to you know, mesh with like the local culture and customs and integrate into society. I really have not received any negativity around that whatsoever. And so, and also with the exception of let's say Mexico, it's typically not the US that is this mass influx. So in Spain is mostly British people right coming for traveling or holiday homes is the thing. And so where we're seeing crackdowns in terms of living in a country is mainly countries getting rid of golden visas through buying property because they're like, we don't want us to buy it any more property that and you know, countries like, for example, Spain is experiencing this, especially with property, putting a very large tax on if you buy property and you're not a resident. So for example, if somebody from the UK that doesn't actually live in Spain wanted to buy a house, they might have to pay. You know, I can't remember the exact amount. It's either fifty percent or one hundred percent of the value of the house in taxes, whereas I don't have that issue because I'm a resident. So they're trying to curb that sort of thing. It's not necessarily. I have only had positive things said to me when I say that I'm from the US, like here in Spain, even in countries like for example, Vietnam, where I thought, ooh, I might have a I might get a reaction for being from the US. Nope, Nope. Everyone that I've interacted with has been so kind. And I do think if you're worried about that, you are precisely the type of person that should go right, like, that's good, that's great that you're worried about that. That shows you're a good person.

00:52:47
Speaker 1: Right, You're conscientious. You want to make sure that you you moving to that place isn't kind of upsetting the apple part in a way like that that is offensive to the people that you're moving. And I think you're right. I think the more there's an approach that you have to take that favors that will essentially, I think, cause people who live there to be more welcoming. And then there's an approach that you can take if you are that kind of stereotypical American tourist that causes people to be like, get out of here, and so.

00:53:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, like don't be a jerk. Yeah, be respectful.

00:53:26
Speaker 1: How you move in that place matters a whole lot to how you're going to be received. Rachelle, this has been such a great conversation. Any last tips you want to mention, and then obviously we'll have links to some of your resources up on the show notes up on our website. Is there anything else you feel like compelled to say or that people need to know before we wrap this combo up. Yeah.

00:53:44
Speaker 2: I would say if this is something that you have been dreaming about or thinking about for a really long time, like now is the time to start taking moves towards that. Because I talked to a lot of people who've wanted to do this for a while and they just weren't sure if it was possible for them, or you know, we hear the reasoning around like oh I need to save up more money. I'm like, well how much is more? You know what I mean? Like if you have a number you know, or I need more time, And there's always a reason why you can't have what you want. But if this is something that you actually want, like this is this is feasible, like we could do this, but you have to take action. And so what I'm seeing is a lot of people spinning their wheels, spending hours and hours and hours on Google and YouTube and Reddit and you know just maybe maybe ahi right, researching, but never actually taking action. But my challenge for you is, if this is something that you really want to do, let's get out of research mode and start making some decisions. And the first thing that you need to decide is what do you want your life to look like? What do you want to get out of this move overseas right? What are your priorities? And then we look for opportunities that match those things, and that match really you know, your income source and like have that match a visa strategy and a tax strategy for you, right, Like, that's what we want to look at, rather than just endlessly researching countries and visas in schools and having this like massive Google doc with one hundred pages of information. It's like, what do you want, what's your income source? And then let's look for a country and like a visa and tax strategy that matches that. That's where I would say to get started.

00:55:33
Speaker 1: Yeah cool, I love it, Chelle. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today.

00:55:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and it's it's been so great to be able to talk about the financial side of moving abroad.

00:55:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree, Rachelle. Thanks for joining me. And let's get to my big takeaway for this episode. Man, what a fun, fun conversation. I just Rachelle is just full of so much information because she has done it herself. She has lived life, she has given birth overseas right now, she has lived in a funky situation in China, she has lived in many countries now at this point, and she's helped a bunch of other people do the same. So I just really appreciate the depth of knowledge she brought and just kind of like a man. She just delivered the information so well, made it really accessible. I think, and this is something that more people are considering. It's not for everyone. I don't imagine that the vast majority of how the money listeners are gonna suddenly be like I think I'm gonna move to Georgia or to Thailand or to Portugal tomorrow. But I do think there's enough people who are interested considering something like this that it was worth covering. And I also, I guess I just see a distinct financial benefit for people who are willing to do something unorthodox. Maybe for even just a couple of years. Maybe you love it, maybe you get bit by the bug and you're like, I'm staying here forever. But to think about what it could mean for you financially in terms of like a like a jumpstart, like a catalyst to help you, whether it's paying off debt or building up kind of a nest egg, starting your financial life off on the right foot. I think living somewhere that's less expensive, that where you're still able to maybe maintain a solid income from a job that stateside like this is kind of a way to juici your ability to reach financial independence, which is cool. We talked about that so but then I also loved what she said about kind of taking a scouting trip ahead of time. But it's kind of like renting before buying when you move to a new city. It's something I always recommend because you don't know what neighborhood you want to live in yet in all likelihood, right, unless you've visited there before, you're just kind of flying blind. And people are like, oh, well, buying always makes sense, so I'm just going to buy in this new place I'm moving to. And then they end up realizing I'm this neighborhood I don't like, and so they put that home on the market the next spring and they buy another place, and just the transaction costs are prohibitive, and it means it essentially makes what could have been a solid move a mistake. And I think this is even more true if you're playing on moving somewhere and you don't know enough about the country, You don't know, you've never been there, and you're just assuming based on things videos you've seen on YouTube or what you've read about moving to this part of Spain or Portugal or Vietnam. You're assuming that you're going to like that culture or like that way of life, and maybe you will, maybe you won't. So I love that she talked about dipping your toes in first, and then also just realizing that there are trade offs and not to see everything through these rose colored glasses like, oh, this is the thing that's going to solve all my problems, because it won't, because problems follow us right from one place to another. Your debt doesn't go away right because you move to another country. There are I think that, and there will be elements about moving that are harder. There will be some things, some ways that'll make your life easier potentially, but then there are other ways where it's going. It could add levels of difficulty learning a new language, right learning a new culture that maybe you end up enjoying it more. I don't know, but I guess just one knowing that you need to put in the legwork ahead of time, and in particular visit a place before you sign on the dotted line to move there. And then two just realizing that not everything is better when you move. There might be some things that are better and it might be well worth it, but just don't think it is some silver bullet to fix, to fix everything that's going on in your financial life or in your life as a whole. But I hope this conversation has been helpful. Thanks, as always for listening. We'll have links in the show notes to some of the resources that Rachelle has to help people move abroad. That's at howtomoney dot com. All Right, until next time, best friend Out.