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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, this is part two of our episode about

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Speaker 1: Robin Gibbons. If you haven't listened to part one yet,

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Speaker 1: I recommend starting there. Just a note that we discuss

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Speaker 1: sexual and domestic violence in this episode. It's September thirtieth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, and Robin Gibbons, a well known actress,

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Speaker 1: is revealing on a national television interview.

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Speaker 2: He's got a side to him that's scary. That she

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Speaker 2: is tormented by her husband's physical.

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Speaker 3: Abuse and just recently, I've become afraid, I mean very

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Speaker 3: very much afraid.

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Speaker 1: Her husband, the heavyweight boxing champion of the world, Mike Tyson,

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Speaker 1: is sitting beside her quietly, Why.

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Speaker 4: Are you doing this interview? What you wanted people to know?

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Speaker 2: I don't want him to seem like a bad guy.

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Speaker 1: The couple is speaking to Barbara Walters to tackle a

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Speaker 1: swirl of rumors around their marriage, but Robin's honesty in

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Speaker 1: this moment is going to backfire and the public reaction

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Speaker 1: to her intimate revelation will change the course of her life.

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Speaker 5: Is Evana Kerm and I'm Jessica Bennett.

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Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit

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Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped us.

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Speaker 5: And that we just can't stop thinking about today.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the vilification of Robin Gibbons, a talented

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Speaker 1: actress who in the nineteen eighties became known for her

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Speaker 1: violent marriage to Mike Tyson. But we're also talking about

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Speaker 1: the way she was treated by the press, what it

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Speaker 1: teaches us about domestic violence and the role race played

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Speaker 1: in all of it.

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Speaker 2: This is part two.

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Speaker 6: So, Susie, we're talking about this remarkable interview which has

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Speaker 6: now just aired. How does Robin feel about it after

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Speaker 6: they finished taping.

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Speaker 1: So initially, Mike and Robin and the people around them

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Speaker 1: view the interview as a success.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Robin writes in her memoir, which is called Grace Will

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Speaker 1: Lead Me Home that afterwards they all went out and

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Speaker 1: celebrated and were really happy with the result.

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Speaker 5: But then what was the public reaction to the interview?

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Speaker 1: So the reaction is wild. Even in the run up

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Speaker 1: to when they air it on September thirtieth, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: a few days usually between an interview and when it

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Speaker 1: actually gets edited together and put on television. During that period,

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Speaker 1: ABC News leaks parts of the interview. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: assume it was ABC news. I guess someone else could

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Speaker 1: have done it.

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Speaker 2: But purposely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pre standard practice and television, right, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: pre internet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: They're releasing parts of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or they're not releasing the actual video of it,

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Speaker 1: but they're letting people know that this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a big interview worth watching, So they're leaking little

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Speaker 1: pieces of what was covered, and the tabloids go crazy. Right,

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Speaker 1: they're already following every twist and turn in this relationship,

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Speaker 1: but at this point they're even more aggressively invested in

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Speaker 1: kind of what comes next, and there's a lot of speculation,

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Speaker 1: and I think the thing that becomes clear here is

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Speaker 1: that the public opinion is really turning on her. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: there was already this idea that she was going to

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Speaker 1: take all the spark out of Mike Tyson or whatever.

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Speaker 5: The hell she was just in it for a month.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was already these sort of like spurious rumors

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Speaker 2: about her.

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Speaker 1: At this point, there is this sense that she's humiliated

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Speaker 1: him with this interview, that by her saying that he's

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Speaker 1: abusive while he's sitting there watching that that's a humiliation

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Speaker 1: that's undeserved somehow. I mean, it's hard for me now

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Speaker 1: looking back on it, to kind of understand this public sentiment.

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Speaker 6: I mean I keep asking you, like, wait, what do

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Speaker 6: you mean they think she's humiliated him? Like it is

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Speaker 6: so crazy to watch this now and think to yourself, oh, god,

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Speaker 6: she's really humiliated him. I mean, like, what you see

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Speaker 6: here is an extremely raw description of a woman describing abuse. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: and it's really wild that that was the public reaction

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Speaker 6: to it, Like, it says so much about the time,

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Speaker 6: and so actually I wanted to ask you, can you

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Speaker 6: give us a little bit of context about our understanding

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Speaker 6: of domestic violence at the time, because it was not

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Speaker 6: what it is today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing because a lot of the way

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Speaker 1: we understand domestic violence now really started with stuff that

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Speaker 1: happened in the nineteen eighties around this timeframe. I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 1: wife beating as it was described was formally illegal in

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Speaker 1: the United States by nineteen twenty, but you know, arrests

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Speaker 1: remained very rare, and it wasn't until the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: where feminists started to really recast domestic violence as a

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Speaker 1: major issue.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. Actually, this was when MS magazine, which was run

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Speaker 6: by Glorioustein and put domestic violence on its cover. It

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Speaker 6: was the first magazine to do that. I randomly know

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Speaker 6: a lot of this history. And it was an image,

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Speaker 6: a full bleed image of a woman's face with a

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Speaker 6: black eye. She was a famous model and so she

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Speaker 6: was recognizable, and the headline was battered wives. And so

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Speaker 6: this was exactly what you're saying. This was when the

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Speaker 6: idea of abuse and domestic abuse was really starting to

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Speaker 6: trickle out into the mainstream.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that cover really demonstrates this moment where a shift

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Speaker 1: is occurring, almost in real time, where women are starting

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Speaker 1: to say, like, these are real issues. There needs to

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Speaker 1: be real legal repercussions for the language for it, language

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Speaker 1: for it. But look, we're in eighty eight when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this. The Violence Against Woman Act isn't even

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Speaker 1: passed until nineteen ninety four, and that is sort of

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Speaker 1: the first act that acknowledges domestic violence and sexual assault

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Speaker 1: as a crime and entrine's protection. So we're really at

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Speaker 1: a very early understanding. And what you see is that

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Speaker 1: Robin doesn't really benefit from that. Like it's not like

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Speaker 1: we see all these feminists come forward to defend.

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Speaker 5: Her right and support of her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wanted to get the perspective of somebody

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Speaker 1: who could put this into historical context for us, but

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Speaker 1: also who lived through it.

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Speaker 2: So I called up Salamisha Tillett.

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Speaker 1: She's a Pulitzer Prize winning critic and a professor at Ruckers.

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Speaker 1: She also grew up watching Robin Gibbons like I did

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Speaker 1: on Head of the Class.

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Speaker 2: Here's what she had to say.

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Speaker 4: You know what's interesting about Robin Gibvens is that her

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Speaker 4: public disclosure not only predates me too Right as like

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Speaker 4: a global movement, but it predates other people coming forward

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Speaker 4: with allegations against Mike Tyson, like Desiree Washington or other

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Speaker 4: mainstream allegations of violence against women that we see later

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Speaker 4: on In nineteen ninety one, the same year, Deserte Washington

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Speaker 4: comes forward with allegations of sexual assault with Mike Tyson.

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Speaker 4: In the fall of that year, Anita Hill comes forward

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Speaker 4: with allegations of sexual harassment Clarence Thomas. So Robin Gibbons

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Speaker 4: is in a way an island unto herself, but also

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Speaker 4: she's like a canary in the coalmi. It's just really

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Speaker 4: important for us to go back and kind of understand,

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Speaker 4: like what was the discourse around violence against women, violence

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Speaker 4: against black women in the eighties and early nineties, and

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Speaker 4: then how did that language that the public narratives impact

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Speaker 4: little girls like me and you were watching it.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know the story about

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Speaker 1: Desiree Washington, we'll talk more about that later. But Salamisia

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Speaker 1: is making such an important larger point here because what

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Speaker 1: happens between Robin and Mike Tyson tells us a lot

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Speaker 1: about how violence against women is seen in this era,

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Speaker 1: and it tells us a lot about how racism is

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Speaker 1: part of that conversation.

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Speaker 6: Right, and not only in how Robin was treated, but

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Speaker 6: in that whole sort of like beauty in the beast

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Speaker 6: portrayal of the two of them, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And actually Salami Siha talked about that, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, Mike Tyson was to call him like beasts to

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Speaker 4: the beauty. He's already castigated as someone who's like not

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Speaker 4: fully human. So there's a racist element to how he

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Speaker 4: was perceived, how people talked about his boxing, how people

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Speaker 4: talked about his childhood, and how people saw him in

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Speaker 4: American society. But I also think there's like racism towards

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Speaker 4: Robin Gibbons, where like black women are not seen as

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Speaker 4: victims of violence right.

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Speaker 1: Salamisha also said that these historic biases, these myths are

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Speaker 1: part of the reason Robin wasn't believed.

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Speaker 4: The same myth of black men being hyper violent that

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Speaker 4: comes from slavery. Also, there are myths of black women,

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Speaker 4: you know, being jezebels or whorerors that like legitimated the

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Speaker 4: violence against them during slavery as well. And so you

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Speaker 4: have these two myths that are just circulating and international imagination.

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Speaker 4: And you have Mike Tyson, who is physically much stronger

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Speaker 4: than Robin Gibbons, and you have her saying publicly that

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Speaker 4: he's abused her, and he doesn't refute it. So all

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Speaker 4: of that is true, and yet people still didn't believe her.

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Speaker 4: So there's a lot of like mental gymnastics that one

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Speaker 4: has to do. When even the person who's being accused

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Speaker 4: of the violence doesn't say it didn't happen, it just

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Speaker 4: speaks to like, one, how little we actually value the

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Speaker 4: truth of violence against women, particularly violence against women in

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Speaker 4: homes and in marriages. But then two, the layer of

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Speaker 4: him being an African Recan man and her being an

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Speaker 4: African Recan woman, I think adds a kind of confusion

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Speaker 4: I think on the part of how the media is

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Speaker 4: going to deal with it, Black women aren't seen as

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Speaker 4: people who are potential victims. They're not delicate, they're not fragile.

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Speaker 4: We're superhuman in a different way, and so when we

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Speaker 4: say that someone's attacked us, we're actually seen as people

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Speaker 4: who are unattackable and therefore unbelievable. It wasn't just Mike Tyson,

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Speaker 4: I think, being a victim of racism, and therefore he's

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Speaker 4: seen as hyper violent. But Robin Gibbons probably was never

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Speaker 4: going to be seen as someone who could have been

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Speaker 4: a victim, given this history of race and gender in America.

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Speaker 6: So, Susie, I know we'll hear more from Salivation later,

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Speaker 6: but I want to take us back to the timeline.

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Speaker 6: So the interview airs and the public reaction is not good,

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Speaker 6: and then, if I'm remembering correctly, Mike Tyson begins to

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Speaker 6: completely unravel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So once the interview airs and the reaction is

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Speaker 1: that it's like a humiliation for him, he completely loses

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Speaker 1: his ship. A couple of days later, he had as

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Speaker 1: such an intense meltdown that the police are called to

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Speaker 1: their New Jersey mansion. He's literally throwing furniture through the windows.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the marriage at this point is essentially over.

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Speaker 1: And Robin has told this story about kind of the

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Speaker 1: moment where she realizes she can't stay in the marriage anymore.

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Speaker 1: He's having this extremely violent sort of rage that's going

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Speaker 1: on four hours, and she and her mother and her

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Speaker 1: sister and some other staff are hiding in a closet

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Speaker 1: off the kitchen, desperately like trying to keep themselves safe

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Speaker 1: from him, and she looks down at her sister, and

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Speaker 1: her sister is just weeping, And in that moment, she says,

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Speaker 1: she realized that she's not just putting herself through this,

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Speaker 1: but that she's putting her family through this. And she

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Speaker 1: decides that they have to leave, and they flee to California.

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Speaker 1: So within a week, Robin files for divorce, citing irreconcilable

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Speaker 1: differences and spousal abuse. And in that divorce petition, she

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Speaker 1: really does not hold back. She asks for a restraining order.

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Speaker 1: She says, my husband has throughout our marriage been violent,

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Speaker 1: physically abusive, prone to unprovoked rages of violence and destruction.

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Speaker 1: She describes this incident in the house the most recent

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Speaker 1: incident in which I was physically terrorized occurred on October second.

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Speaker 1: I was awakened by Michael hitting about my body and

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Speaker 1: my head with his closed fist and open hand. She's

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Speaker 1: and I think it's like worth remembering the disparity in

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Speaker 1: their sizes here.

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Speaker 5: Ye, exactly.

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Speaker 6: All spousal abuse is terrible, but this is the literal

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Speaker 6: heavyweight champion of the world and she's talking about his

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Speaker 6: closed fist like that is his punching hand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she literally says, it's the latest in a continuous

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Speaker 1: horror story for me. He has repeatedly hit me, thrown

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Speaker 1: things at me, threatened to kill me, and threatened to

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Speaker 1: kill my sister, my mom and employees.

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Speaker 5: Wow, it turns so quickly.

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Speaker 6: It's like they're on that show to supposedly rehabilitate or

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Speaker 6: show that they love each other.

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Speaker 1: And that he's still God died like a leading into that,

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Speaker 1: and then she's like, you know what, No, this is

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Speaker 1: not a good guy.

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Speaker 5: Well, it just explodes.

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Speaker 1: He's violent and actually, interestingly, even as she's filing this petition,

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Speaker 1: her attorney still says to the press she loves Mike Tyson,

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Speaker 1: but there is continued violence and she fears for her safety.

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Speaker 6: So I mean, I think that's always been clear, Like

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Speaker 6: that shouldn't be surprising. It is possible to love someone

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Speaker 6: and for them to be a terrible, horrible abuser.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, I think it's actually common, right, Like, most

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Speaker 1: people do love their abusers. That's why they put up

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Speaker 1: or it's like a twisted form of love, or they

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Speaker 1: believe it's love. That's what your abuser is using against

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Speaker 1: you often is sort of that knowledge that you don't

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Speaker 1: want to leave, but that they're going to push you

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Speaker 1: and push you and push you until maybe you don't

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Speaker 1: feel like you have a choice.

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Speaker 2: And that seems like is what happened here.

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Speaker 1: And at this point, Mike reacts by waging open war

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Speaker 1: on her, So she unleashes this anger in him that

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Speaker 1: he now begins to feel comfortable taking out publicly, Like

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Speaker 1: we know he's been taking out this anger on her,

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Speaker 1: you know, privately.

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Speaker 5: Oh, so he's now just like, but.

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Speaker 1: Now he's just talking so much shit about her in

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Speaker 1: the press. He counter sues her.

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Speaker 5: Oh, he counter sues her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he fils for an annulment in New Jersey, which,

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Speaker 1: unlike California, doesn't have a fifty to fifty split. So

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Speaker 1: he's basically like implying that she filed in California for

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Speaker 1: the money.

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Speaker 2: He charges that she.

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Speaker 1: Tricked him into the marriage and that she waged a

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Speaker 1: campaign to publicly humiliate him, grip him of his manhood

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Speaker 1: and his dignity, and to destroy his credibility as a

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Speaker 1: public figure. I mean, he has now decided that she

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Speaker 1: is the enemy, and he is someone who when he

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Speaker 1: decides that you're the enemy, really leans into that in

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Speaker 1: an extremely aggressive way. So initially she says, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to walk away from this marriage. I don't want anything.

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Speaker 1: But he is so joh meaningless about her and relentless

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Speaker 1: in the press. He says that her miscarriage was false.

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Speaker 1: He claims she was never pregnant, even though she says

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Speaker 1: he had seen ultrasounds. He says about her and her mother,

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Speaker 1: And this one I think is the most shocking. They

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Speaker 1: don't like black people. In an interview with The Sun

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Speaker 1: Times Chicago. Sometimes they use them, but they don't like

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Speaker 1: or respect black people.

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Speaker 2: They want to be white so bad.

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Speaker 1: The way they talk about black people, you'd think you

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Speaker 1: were living with the Ku Klux Klan.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so I think there's also this thing that he

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Speaker 1: is tapping into, which is in the Black community. He

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Speaker 1: is a real hero, right, so she is seen as

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Speaker 1: betraying people to some degree, and he is really giving

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Speaker 1: a dog whistle to that by claiming that she's essentially

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Speaker 1: a white supremacist.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's so interesting because it reminds me of

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Speaker 6: Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill. Yes, and the way that

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Speaker 6: he used the language about a very public lynching exactly,

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Speaker 6: and that was just a few years later. It's almost

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Speaker 6: as if this sort of not payd the like, I

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Speaker 6: don't know what the right terminology is, but there is

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Speaker 6: some reflection of this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you see echoes of the same kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: which is there is this struggle in the black community

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Speaker 1: where even with Bill Cosby, I think there was initially

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Speaker 1: a lot of pushback when people came forward because the

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Speaker 1: idea was like, we don't have that many heroes, you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't denigrate them, even when they've done something that deserves

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Speaker 1: to be called out.

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Speaker 4: Mike Tyson was a rare African American man who had

305
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Speaker 4: reached the kind of the apex of his profession.

306
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Speaker 2: That's Almi Shatilada again.

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Speaker 4: And so that need, that desire, that hope to protect

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Speaker 4: his status I think comes at the expense of someone

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Speaker 4: like Robin Gibbons. So you have two African Americans, arguably

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Speaker 4: both at the peak of their professions and then these

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Speaker 4: accusations of violence. And so because of America has this

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Speaker 4: long history of lynching and attacking African American men who

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Speaker 4: are in high profile positions, there is a sense that

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Speaker 4: we have to protect this person at any cost. The

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00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 4: other part of that, of course, is there's an African

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Speaker 4: American woman here who is also a victim of racism,

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Speaker 4: a victim of sexism, and when she speaks out about

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Speaker 4: violence against her by this man, she suddenly doesn't have

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Speaker 4: a racial identity. She's no longer seen as a victim.

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Speaker 4: She's seen as someone who's in cahoots with American racism

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Speaker 4: to take him down. And so that's the tragedy of

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Speaker 4: the Robin Givens Mike Tyson situation.

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Speaker 6: It really must have felt so dehumanizing for Robin to

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Speaker 6: just be stripped of her identity in that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the crazy thing is he just continues to

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Speaker 1: give these interviews. He calls her slime of the slime.

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Speaker 1: He says she tried to kill him with the drugs

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Speaker 1: at which one he's talking about lithium, so there's obviously

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Speaker 1: trying to kill him with the drugs. She eventually gets

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Speaker 1: so frustrated she sues him for defamation and she's like,

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Speaker 1: he accusing me of trying to steal his money.

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Speaker 2: That's not true.

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Speaker 1: So she's trying to fight that, and then eventually she

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Speaker 1: just is like, I can't do this with you. She

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Speaker 1: just drops the suit and their divorce is finalized, ironically

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Speaker 1: on Valentine's Day of nineteen eighty nine, almost exactly a

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Speaker 1: year after they were married.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so the divorce is finalized. You know, hopefully she

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Speaker 6: gets a moment to take a breath. This sounds absolutely awful,

341
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Speaker 6: but the public sentiment doesn't really change, right, Like, is

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Speaker 6: there any to me? It's like, there's no doubt in

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Speaker 6: my mind that she was abused, But do people believe

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Speaker 6: that or they still after all of this, are like, no,

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Speaker 6: she's just going after his reputation.

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Speaker 2: People seem not to believe that.

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Speaker 1: And what's crazy about that is that he does actually

348
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,399
Speaker 1: admit it. So he has for many years denied it.

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00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 1: He denied it at the time, he denies it for

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Speaker 1: many years afterwards.

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Speaker 5: He didn't admit it.

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Speaker 6: In the Barbara Walders interview, right, even though she's sitting

353
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 6: there next to him describing it.

354
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't admit it.

355
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Speaker 1: And to be clear, when you listen to the tape,

356
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Speaker 1: which you know, we played at the top of episode one,

357
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Speaker 1: she doesn't exactly admit it either. That's why her divorce

358
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 1: filing is seen as such a big step, because she's

359
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: sort of dancing around it too. You know, he shakes,

360
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,919
Speaker 1: he this, he that, but she stops short of quite

361
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: saying that he hits. And I think that is what

362
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 1: he leans into. Although there is this one thing that

363
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: comes out that's so interesting. So while they were married,

364
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 1: this friend of his, this fellow boxing champion Jose Torres,

365
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 1: is working on a biography of him and he's interviewing

366
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Speaker 1: him for months. So he's just a friend who's turned

367
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,119
Speaker 1: into an author and they're just doing these series of interviews.

368
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Speaker 1: And I think Mike is used to just like cutting

369
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Speaker 1: it up with his friends. He doesn't really think about

370
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 1: what's going to be in this book. When the book

371
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: is released, you know, just a few months after their

372
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 1: divorce is finalized, it includes a passage where Mike very

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Speaker 1: clearly admits to hitting Robin.

374
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Speaker 5: Oh wow.

375
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: And it's something Mike said when they were still together

376
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 1: and this sort of press storm hadn't started yet, so

377
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 1: he probably didn't realize it was okay, it was like

378
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,920
Speaker 1: before he would have caught himself. Yes, And he probably

379
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 1: doesn't think that Torres is going to put it in the book.

380
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a friend, and this is the passage.

381
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: Torres asks him about the best punch he'd ever thrown,

382
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 1: presumably thinking he's going to refer to a punch in

383
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Speaker 1: the ring. Yeah, obviously, and Mike smiles and tells him

384
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that punch. It was when I fought

385
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Speaker 1: with Robin in Steve's apartment. She really offended me, and

386
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: I went, bam, holy shit, and wait, let me finish

387
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 1: the passage because it's doesn't get better. And she flew backward,

388
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Speaker 1: hitting every fucking wall in the apartment. That was the

389
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 1: best punch I've ever thrown in my fucking life.

390
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 5: Wow, Oh my god.

391
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 2: Right, So you would think that's horrifying.

392
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely horrifying, And you would think that when

393
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,400
Speaker 1: this book comes out suddenly the public turns on him

394
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Speaker 1: and rallies around her.

395
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Speaker 6: Was that line, you know, pulled out and covered the

396
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Speaker 6: way that it would be now.

397
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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's in the way that it

398
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 1: would be now, and that it was pulled out and covered,

399
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: but it was just drowned out by all the other noise.

400
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Speaker 6: Right. Well that's the thing too, It's like so much

401
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 6: has happened now they're divorced. Like how many people who

402
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 6: believe that she's an evil witch actually read this line

403
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 6: or are reading the next bit of tabloid cover?

404
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,360
Speaker 1: Sure, and I think jose Taurus doesn't have a lot

405
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 1: of incentive to really do a big push on this

406
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,199
Speaker 1: particular part of the book because again, it's meant to

407
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: be a friendly book. This is his friend who's given

408
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: him all this access, so you know, whereas now, if

409
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 1: you were marketing a book, you would make sure to

410
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 1: pull that out and make sure that was in every interview.

411
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 2: I think that's not really what happens.

412
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 6: Well, that's sort of fascinating too. It's like that they

413
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 6: didn't think that that was such a big deal, right, It.

414
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: Just seems wild. And there's other things in the book

415
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: that are also really disturbing. There's a passage where he says,

416
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: I like to hurt women when I make love to them.

417
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: I like to hear them scream with pain, to see

418
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: them bleed. He gives me pleasure. This is what he's

419
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: willing to admit to someone.

420
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Speaker 6: Was there any way that Robin could take that and

421
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 6: use it in her defamation suit?

422
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 2: At this point, she's dropped all that.

423
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 5: I guess the divorce had already gone through.

424
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 2: Right, She's dropped the defamation suit.

425
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 5: And like, was it?

426
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 6: It's like this guy should have been a witness in

427
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 6: the divorce proceedings.

428
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I mean she couldn't in the end.

429
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: The book didn't come out until all that stuff was over,

430
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: but it would have been helpful.

431
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 6: Okay, So Susie, let me just take us back for

432
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 6: a moment. We started this episode by saying that at

433
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 6: some point Robin becomes known as the most hated women

434
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 6: in America, but we haven't exactly talked about how that happened.

435
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that particular title, which is very specific, obviously

436
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: comes about through a couple of things. There's the original

437
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters interview, which obviously we've gone through all the

438
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 1: backlash to it. Then the day she files for divorce

439
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: CNN's Newsnight, and I think this really reveals how the

440
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 1: story is starting to cross over from tabloid to mainstream

441
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: press runs two poles. On October seventh, they ask who's

442
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: at fault in the marriage breakup? Mike Tyson or Robin Gibbons,

443
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: which again like, let's just take a moment, like they're

444
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: asking us on TV, yeah, on CNN, like to just

445
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: take a moment to like how crazy that is? And

446
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: ninety three percent of the callers say it is Robin.

447
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 6: Oh, so people actually call in to answer yeah, so yeah,

448
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 6: so retro and seven percent say it's Mike.

449
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: So just to give you an idea of how much

450
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: public sentiment is against her. And then I guess because

451
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: of the success of that pole. On October tenth, they

452
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: run another pole, should Mike Tyson be granted an annulment

453
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: because and at this point he's counterfeit her to annul

454
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: the marriage? And ninety two percent of people say yes,

455
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: which also makes no sense. I mean, there's no grounds

456
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 1: for an annulment. And there's also some pole that USA

457
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: Today's television show. I guess they had a television show

458
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: at the time. Should she get any of his money?

459
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 1: Ninety six percent people say she doesn't. So these polls

460
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: are cited in a lot of the media coverage that

461
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: comes after it. And then Robin actually sits down with

462
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters again, so this time by herself, after the

463
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: divorce has been announced, and in the introduction to her,

464
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters informs her at this point that she could

465
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: perhaps qualify as the most hated woman in America.

466
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 5: Oh wow, so she says that line.

467
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: It's still qualified, right, you could perhaps be the most

468
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: hated woman in America. And then I think this is

469
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: what really solidifies it.

470
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: Right after that, there is this Chicago Tribune peace.

471
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 5: This is all like within a moment in October.

472
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 6: Wow, Barbara Wilders interview happens, She fils for divorce, the

473
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 6: divorce doesn't go through. She then goes back on Barbara Walters.

474
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 6: Then the Chicago Tribune piece comes out. All these polls

475
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 6: are happening in the back of the.

476
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: Background, right, And what happens here is that the Chicago

477
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: Tribune is syndicated by a lot of other papers, So

478
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people see this column and this article

479
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: has the headline most hated title to Robin Gibbons.

480
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 6: Okay, And side note, when an article is syndicated, that

481
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 6: means the reporters of the Chicago Tribune wrote it, and

482
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 6: then it gets published in like every newspaper across America.

483
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is a very widely read article. It's

484
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: just FYI written by a woman, which I feel they

485
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: need to tell you for obvious reasons. And this includes

486
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: the CNN polls as the initial evidence for why she's

487
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: the most hated. But then it has this line, in

488
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: spite of giving up any claims on Mike Tyson's money,

489
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: the soon to be ex MISSUS World Heavyweight Champion is

490
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: the unequivocal holder of the most Hated woman in America title.

491
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: So I think this is the line that kind of

492
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: solidifies this idea. And then she goes on to sort

493
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: of interview all these famous or somehow she finds relevant

494
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: people about why they dislike her so much, and there's

495
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: this quote from the woman who wrote Dear Abby, which

496
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: is perhaps the most famous, the most famous advice in

497
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: America America, and this is what she says. I see

498
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: this big, strong, muscular guy who's really a marshmallow inside.

499
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: It seems like he's the one who's been abused. I'd

500
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: say he's been had, and that's why he's getting all

501
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: the sympathy for all of his World Championships. I think

502
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: he was naive. Like does that not just s blow

503
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: your mind that someone who could have watched that same

504
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: interview that we watched would think that he was just

505
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: the sweet marshmallow, Like it's just really hard to wrap

506
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: your head around. And then the reporter talks to this

507
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: divorce attorney and this is what he says, Mike Tyson

508
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: has one of the most prestigious titles in the world.

509
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: And the way she talked about him in that interview

510
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: with Barbara Walters turned my stomach. It was the most

511
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: incredible put down, and I see put downs every day.

512
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: And the way he put up with that mother, that's

513
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: another reason why people side with him. These people just

514
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: manipulated a poor, ignorant guy. They obviously used him for

515
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: his money. Here she is this beautiful college graduate. The

516
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: guy is less than intelligent and less than attractive, which

517
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: is also just like gross to begin with. Why is

518
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: he insulting Mike Tyson while he's defending him. It feels

519
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: like racist that he's talking about how stupid and unattractive

520
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: Mike Tyson is. There's nothing in this that doesn't actually

521
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: turn my stomach. But you know, this is how people

522
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: felt about it at the time. This is like a

523
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: reflection of the public sentiment. And there's one other detail

524
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: in this column which I think is much more common

525
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: now but was relatively unusual then, which is people have

526
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: started wearing free Mike Tyson. Oh wow, Okay, yes, so

527
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: I guess it to be free from a woman who's

528
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: filed for divorce against him, Like, I don't even understand that.

529
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 6: The other thing is so wild is the headlines from

530
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 6: this time. So you had pulled all of these headlines,

531
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 6: our researcher, I pulled all these headlines together, and I

532
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 6: was just skimming over them and thinking to myself, Oh

533
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 6: my god. It's like they've taken the boxing terminology, and

534
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 6: they've also taken the terminology of domestic violence, and they've

535
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 6: made puns out of it. Yeah, so let me just

536
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 6: read your these the Philadelphia Daily News. A lot of

537
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 6: this is coming right in October and November of nineteen

538
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 6: eighty eight, when all of this is blowing up. The

539
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 6: headline is taking a few swings at Robin. Then there's

540
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 6: another one from like a small town paper that says,

541
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 6: knocking Robin. Another one from Fort Myers News, blow by

542
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 6: blow Colin Robin and Mike's year, Like.

543
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, it's so gross, And also you can just

544
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: see how clever that these headline writers must think they're being,

545
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: Like it reveals sort of just like this cat a

546
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: leer kind of jokey way in which this was discussed.

547
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 6: And then the other thing too, is that all of

548
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 6: these articles begin by repeating what you have just described

549
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,719
Speaker 6: to us, that most hated woman in America line. So

550
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 6: they will say things like, well, headlines proclaim her the

551
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 6: most haated woman in America, and it's like, well, you

552
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 6: are the headline. Yeah, you are claiming her, yes, And actually,

553
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 6: this whole description you've now taken us through is such

554
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 6: a crystallized version of how narratives take yes. It's so

555
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 6: fascinating from like a narrative media perspective, because it's like, yeah,

556
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 6: one person says one thing, and then a newspaper picks

557
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 6: it up, and then it gets syndicated, and then every

558
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 6: other article just keeps repeating it and regurgitating it until

559
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 6: it sticks. And so ultimately there's this People magazine cover

560
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 6: with a photo of Robin and the headline is why

561
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 6: does everyone hate me? And it's like, well, because we've

562
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 6: literally been saying that everyone hates you.

563
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: Right, it has a real impact, right, the real world

564
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: impact impact. At one point, Robin tells Essence Magazine that

565
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: during this time, a woman walked up to her on

566
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: the street and yelled, he should have kicked your ass.

567
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: I wish he would have killed you.

568
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 5: Wow.

569
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 6: Okay, So that's like the pre Internet version of like

570
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 6: all of the hate sent it women who speak up

571
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 6: on Twitter, except that you actually have to walk up

572
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 6: to the person and say it to their face.

573
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: And I think also it really speaks to this idea

574
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: that now people complain about being canceled and like getting

575
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of shit online. I mean the things

576
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: that Robin went through, Like she is literally ostracized for

577
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: just having been honest about her life.

578
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 5: She is branded with that title.

579
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: It follows her for a really long time.

580
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 6: Suffice to say, I assume she regrets having done that.

581
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 6: Original Barbara Walters interview.

582
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: She does regret it.

583
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how anybody couldn't, you know,

584
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: looking back on what happened as a result. But she

585
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: did say that to Oprah in two thousand and four,

586
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: when she released her book. She went on Oprah to

587
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: promote it and Oprah asked her specifically if she regretted it.

588
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: And she said that she did.

589
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: She was in no state to really sit and do

590
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: anything at that time, and that part of it is

591
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: she was precocious and she felt like she could handle

592
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: it and I can go talk to the doctor and

593
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna save him.

594
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: But obviously, you know it was more than she could handle.

595
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: And Oprah says to her, you were pretty villified at

596
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: the time, but even in two thousand and four, she's

597
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: still being villified. And then, in sort of a wild

598
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: follow up, Mike Tyson does an interview with Oprah in

599
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, just five years after Oprah has

600
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: had this conversation with Robin Gibbons, and he jokes about

601
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: hitting Robin during his marriage, and it's really shocking. You

602
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 1: have to hear it, and you have to hear the

603
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: audience's reaction.

604
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: Were you surprised that she was saying those things? Yeah,

605
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: I truly wanted to soccer, you know that particular bok.

606
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: I truly wanted to soccer.

607
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 5: I mean, after from the audience, I just it's I

608
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 5: can't get over it.

609
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really every time I hear it, it's still

610
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: is so jarring to me.

611
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 6: And you know what it reminds me of is when

612
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 6: the audience laughed at Trump joking about sexual assault only recently.

613
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 6: It's so disturbing and it's like so baked in and

614
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 6: this is twenty years after the actual event that they're

615
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 6: talking about.

616
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the brick Kvnah

617
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: hearing too. Do you remember when Christine Blosi Ford says

618
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: like she remembers the laughter. It's like that same kind

619
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: of uncomfortable laughter that people sort of lean into in

620
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: these moments where they're uncomfortable, but also they're trying to

621
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: dismiss the seriousness of something.

622
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 6: And maybe like not laughing about domestic violence accusations is

623
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 6: just like a good rule, just a rule of thumb

624
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 6: and domestic of our sexual violence.

625
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be clear, Robin is really upset by

626
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: this interview that Mike Tyson does with Oprah. At this point,

627
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: she's the spokesperson for the National Domestic Island's hot line

628
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Oh Okay, and she writes Oprah a letter saying she

629
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: was hurt that Oprah didn't say anything or ask the

630
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: audience to stop laughing when it happened. She says, I

631
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't be honest if I didn't say. There wasn't a

632
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: part of me that wanted you to say that's not right.

633
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: When there's this laughter, if you were in that situation

634
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: out there, it kind of lightens it for all the

635
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: women that are experiencing this. Yeah, and that's a good point, right.

636
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: A lot of people who are watching the Oprah Show

637
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: might be going through something like this and seeing the

638
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: audience laugh at Mike Tyson talking about socking her probably

639
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: doesn't make them feel empowered to find a way out

640
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: of that.

641
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 5: Situation, so to speak about it.

642
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ultimately Oprah does apologize.

643
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 5: Oh that's interesting. I can't imagine that happens very often.

644
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I assume it's pretty rare. Do you

645
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: remember when you first encountered her in the zeitgeist?

646
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember watching Robin Gibbons on the television show

647
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: Head of the Class.

648
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about the societal impact, and Salamisia

649
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: has weighed in on the racial aspects, which has been

650
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: really helpful. But I also just wanted to hear how

651
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: this felt for Salamisia on a personal level. And she

652
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: know she was thirteen years old when this interview aired,

653
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: and a fan of Robin's from those head of the

654
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: class years.

655
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: Robin Gibven stood out to me partly because of her voice,

656
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 4: and like, her voice and my voice aren't that dissimilar.

657
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 4: Like I used to be called like a bally girl,

658
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 4: a lot so of a black girl who had a

659
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 4: particular kind of speech pattern an accent. And she was

660
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 4: a glamorous black girl who was also a nerd.

661
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she was kind of like sharp tongued and

662
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: like sassy in a way that I feel like I

663
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: really related to.

664
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: I don't know if you felt that as well.

665
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, she had like a wit to her.

666
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 4: And I was a black girl at an independent school

667
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: in New Jersey who wasn't fashionable or glamorous and was athletic,

668
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 4: but it was nerdy too, And so I think she

669
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 4: represented someone I could aspire to be because she was

670
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 4: so pretty, so smart, so witty, and she was also

671
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 4: so like above the fray.

672
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: What's your memory of that infamous interview with Barbara waltzs.

673
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 4: It was just so shocking because I didn't one understand

674
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 4: what he was talking about, but two I actually did

675
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 4: feel like I grew up in a my stepfather was

676
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 4: physically violent with my mother, so I was familiar with

677
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 4: domestic violence, and so her testimony really resonated with me,

678
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 4: and I felt deep compassion for her.

679
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 5: And it was also just kind of like.

680
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 4: Odd and jarring to have them sitting next to each

681
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 4: other in this interview, with this disclosure of domestic violence.

682
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 5: It was something that I didn't really know what.

683
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 4: To do with, but it really stood out to me

684
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: because it was such a public disclosure of a woman

685
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: who was trapped in a marriage in which she felt

686
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 4: like she couldn't really leave, and yet she was doing

687
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 4: it on national television.

688
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: So when did you realize that the reaction to it

689
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: was so different from your own, that the general public's

690
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: reaction was like an outpouring of sympathy for him and

691
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: a lack of empathy for her.

692
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 4: Well, I think almost immediately there was like a kind

693
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: of public backlash against Robin Gibbons, because she went from

694
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 4: being someone who was so appreciated for her beauty and

695
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: appreciated for her charm and her wit to someone who's

696
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 4: seen suddenly as just being with Mike Tyson for his

697
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 4: fame and his fortune. So whatever status she had that

698
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 4: attracted him to her was suddenly non existent. She was

699
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 4: a woman who's just with him as an accessory as

700
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 4: part of his rise to fame. And then once she

701
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 4: disclosed that she was being physically abused in that relationship,

702
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: she just went not from being a victim of abuse,

703
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 4: but she suddenly slid quite easily into the kind of

704
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 4: gold digger stereotype.

705
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: And do you feel like that shaped sort of how

706
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: you saw the way black women were treated when they

707
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: came forward with something that was so personal.

708
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 4: I knew that it was possible that a black woman

709
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 4: could be victimized by someone she was in an intimate

710
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 4: relationship with, and yet it seemed impossible based on the

711
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 4: media responses that seemed like the rhetoric and the kind

712
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 4: of need York community responses that like, know, this stuff

713
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 4: doesn't really happen.

714
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 5: So that's kind of how I had to coexist with

715
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 5: these two truths.

716
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: We've had these sort of revisiting of all these women,

717
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: and that's become almost like a cottage industry. Why do

718
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: you think she's never gotten that re examination? In that

719
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: larger way.

720
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 4: You have to actually understand the complexity of black women

721
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: in terms of class and race and gender and performance

722
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: to appreciate Robin Gibbons because I think a lot of

723
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 4: the recuperation projects that we've seen have been primarily not

724
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 4: exclusively because there's been stuff on Janet Jackson, have been

725
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:40,959
Speaker 4: on white women.

726
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, and so where does Robin Gibbons fit in

727
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 5: to that? Because she's a black woman.

728
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 4: Who was also rendered a gold digger and not seen

729
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 4: as black, but was black. She's a rich figure, and

730
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: sometimes I think people have that level of complexity just

731
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 4: get written out of history constantly, a little window breaker.

732
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 6: It was so great to hear from Salamisha on this,

733
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: and also so interesting what she said about feeling like

734
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 6: it was impossible for people to believe that a black

735
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 6: woman had actually been a victim of violence, and that

736
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 6: reminds me of cases that we're even seeing in the

737
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 6: present day. It almost reminds me of me too in

738
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 6: some sense, Like we know that racial bias comes into

739
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 6: play when we think about how we believe black women,

740
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 6: whether it's sexual assault, domestic violence, even in cases like

741
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 6: maternal mortality.

742
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just tend to sort of dismiss the pain

743
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: of black women. There's sort of this trope of strong

744
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: black women and they should be able to withstand anything.

745
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like things are all that different today, right,

746
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: not entirely. When you think about the case with Megan

747
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: the Stallion, she was shot by someone she was having

748
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: some kind of relationship with Tory Lanez in twenty twenty,

749
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: and you know, he was sentenced to ten years in

750
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: prison this year, but people still taunt her online.

751
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 5: She's got right, there's a huge against her.

752
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: His team has maligned her in the press so much,

753
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: and he still denies it. So it feels like there

754
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: are a lot of parallels between what.

755
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: Happened to Megan and what happened to Robin.

756
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 6: And well also like the accusation of clout chasing versus

757
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 6: gold dagger, like they're really similar.

758
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the sort of modern day gold digging.

759
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: And then also we just see these other examples, right,

760
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: Like there's the Rihanna case with Chris Brown, and in

761
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: that case, I feel like, you know, it was impossible

762
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: to deny that Rihanna had been physically assaulted. The photo

763
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: photographs and do you remember how awful those photographs were.

764
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're so intense.

765
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 6: But that was so interesting too because it was it

766
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 6: almost worked in her favor because you could not deny

767
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 6: that this had occurred, right, we couldn't deny evidence. But

768
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 6: then when she talks about it, she says that having

769
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 6: those pictures release was one of the most humiliating things

770
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 6: in her life. You know.

771
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: So it's this sort of thing that we expect, like

772
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: we have to get a pound of flesh before we

773
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: even begin to believe women. And even then, like Chris

774
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: Brown's career has not taken the hit you would expect.

775
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: It's not been completely what it might have been otherwise.

776
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: But you know, Chloe Bailey just announced she's doing a

777
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: single with him, and that feels really odd with what

778
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: we know about Chris Brown. Just like Mike Tyson, he

779
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: has been involved in a number of other assault incidents

780
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: with women.

781
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 6: It reminds me a bit too of r. Kelly and

782
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 6: how it took, I mean, how long over a decade

783
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 6: I think, or was it mostle decades for the women

784
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 6: who initially spoke out against.

785
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 5: Him, the black women to be believed.

786
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just really require so much evidence in these

787
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: cases when the man is sort of a beloved figure.

788
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: And when you think about, you know, Mike Tyson, what's

789
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: fascinating is that he's become an even.

790
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: Broader sort of cultural phenomenon.

791
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: Since this happened, he's become sort of this like beloved

792
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: pop culture figure. He was in the Hangover movies. He's

793
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: had this best selling memoir, Yeah Beyond Yeah, and then

794
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: he did this one man show on Broadway that became

795
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: sort of this likely deal that Spike Lee directed. It

796
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 1: became an HBO special. He's had a cartoon series, which,

797
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: I mean, wow, now we know not only was he

798
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: very abusive to Robin Gibbons, he was convicted of raping someone.

799
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 6: So you're talking about Desire Washington, right, Can you give

800
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 6: us a little background on that case for those who

801
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 6: might not know.

802
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

803
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: So, in nineteen ninety two, not long after this interview

804
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: with Barbara Walters, Tyson is convicted of raping an eighteen

805
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: year old girl named Desire Washington.

806
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: She's Miss Black Rhode Island.

807
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: She's in Indianapolis for the Miss Black America beauty pageant,

808
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: and she meets Mike Tyson and agrees to go out

809
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: with him, and he rapes her in what she describes

810
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: again as an absolutely harrowing rape where she is sobbing

811
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: and he is laughing through the experience. And he received

812
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: a six year prison term. I mean he was released

813
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: after three years, but he was in prison and that

814
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: was very broadly publicized. It was also a huge case

815
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: and Larry King went and interviewed him in prison.

816
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 6: It's so easy to forget now in twenty twenty three

817
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 6: that he was convicted and served time for rape.

818
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: But also like, imagine giving that guy a cartoon series.

819
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: He had a cartoon series where he like solved myster's

820
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: Scooby Doo style for like Reesa in twenty fourteen to

821
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, right, okay, And that's also crazy because in

822
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, when he was asked about Desert Washington,

823
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: a person he's been convicted of raping, he said about her,

824
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: I really wish I had done it.

825
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: Now now I really do want to rape her.

826
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 5: What Who did he say that to?

827
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 2: In an interview with Greta Van Sestren, like on Fox?

828
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 2: They aired on Fox?

829
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, do I remember correctly that he actually appeared on

830
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 6: an episode of Law and Order SV Yes.

831
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: It was actually really controversial.

832
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: He did a guest appearance and you know, people who

833
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: watched that show were mad, like they were like, why

834
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: are you putting this convicted rapist on television, And it's

835
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: just because there has been this incredible whitewashing of his history,

836
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: which again this year, another woman came forward and accused

837
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: him of violently raping her in the nineteen nineties. So

838
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: there's just this ongoing litany of issues around him, and

839
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: yet somehow he's just kind of escaped from it all

840
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: and is like considered sweet and funny and is on

841
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: talk shows all the time.

842
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,959
Speaker 6: It's wild and so desire Washington, I mean, I feel

843
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 6: like we could devote a whole other episode to her.

844
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 6: Was the reaction to her similar to the reaction to

845
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 6: Robin Ye.

846
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: Very similar. She was very much skewed by the press.

847
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: She did an interview with Barbara Walters.

848
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 5: Oh, she also did an interview with Barbara Watchers very.

849
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: On top of this bet.

850
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters and Barbara Watchers asked her this like really

851
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: pointed question about what she thought was going to happen

852
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: when she went up to the hotel room with him,

853
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: like sort of blaming her.

854
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 6: That is actually such a common question asked victims of

855
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 6: assault or sexual assamt Well.

856
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: It's like as if just your physical presence is consent,

857
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: like if you deign to be in a room alone

858
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: with a man that is like, in and of itself consent,

859
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 1: which is just obviously not true. But Desira really gets

860
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: the same treatment. She's called a gold digger, and she

861
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: has actually really lived a life that completely abilies that

862
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: she dropped out of public view after this and has

863
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: lived like a very quiet private life. That's always one

864
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: of these tropes that comes up, right, that these women

865
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: do it for fame or for money, But for those

866
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: of us who pay attention to these cases, that's very

867
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: rarely what these women want or pursue after.

868
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 6: Never get it, yes, you know, as if someone wants

869
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 6: that kind of thing, right, as if that fame is

870
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 6: anything other than being treated kind of like your radioactive

871
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 6: in some way.

872
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: Right.

873
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: It takes Ronin, for example, ever to really recover her career.

874
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: She's luckily gone on to have a real career in acting,

875
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 1: and she went back ahead of the class and put

876
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: her head down and just did the work, even though

877
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: the press around her was crazy. And I think because

878
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy had known her for a long time, he

879
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: gives her this comeback vehicle. He puts her in the

880
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 1: movie Boomerang in the nineties, and she slowly just worked

881
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: and worked and found her way back. But that's not

882
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: the norm. That's the exception in a lot of cases

883
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: with Hiven like this.

884
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 6: That's so interesting that you say she recovered. So, yes,

885
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 6: she recovered, but that's very different than like thriving, right,

886
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 6: I mean, what did that mean?

887
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 7: Well?

888
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: I think she would say she's thriving just based on

889
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, interviews that she's given and the way she

890
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: talks about her life. Now, she became a mom and

891
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: she has said that that's sort of the thing that

892
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: saved her, and her two sons are sort of the

893
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: thing that she's most proud of in her life. But

894
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, did she have the movie career that Robin

895
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: Gibbons might have had had this not happened r her?

896
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: I think it's impossible to know, but it's very likely,

897
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: I know, right, But the fact is is that she

898
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: has been able to make a living and work as

899
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: an actress and recently she's directed some projects. So it

900
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: does feel like she was able to salvage her career

901
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: despite the fact that there was this real concerted effort

902
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: to destroy her on many levels.

903
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 5: Well, and she put her energy toward important causes as we.

904
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's done a lot of advocacy for women who've

905
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: been in violent situations. And I actually found this psa

906
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: she did, which I think is worth listening to.

907
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 3: You deserve a wonderful life, you know, and you deserve

908
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 3: really good love, and you deserve to feel safe at home.

909
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 7: If you were someone you know is in an abusive relationship,

910
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 7: please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight

911
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 7: hundred seventy nine nine safe.

912
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 6: It's actually incredible she's able to speak and wants to

913
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 6: speak so openly about it.

914
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: And I think for her that's a lot of the

915
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: way in which she recovered. Her memoir really leans into

916
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: how she found a lot of solace in her religion

917
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: and how that is also how she was able to

918
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: kind of forgive a lot of what's happened to her

919
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: just generally. But you know, reading the book was so

920
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: interesting because I had done almost all the research by

921
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: the time I sat down to read her book. I

922
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: feel like what happens with a lot of these stories

923
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: is that they become kind of flattened by the media narratives.

924
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 6: Right.

925
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: The story is objectively horrible on many levels, but when

926
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: you're reading the book, it's impossible to sort of escape

927
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: the human aspects of the story, Like it is so horrible,

928
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: the descriptions. There's a passage which to me reads so

929
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: clearly as a rape, although she does not herself define

930
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: it that way. It is so hard to read sections

931
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: of this book. And it's a reminder, you know, at

932
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: least for me, that even when you're reading a lot

933
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: about a story, you don't necessarily really take in the

934
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: emotional aspects of it or the humanity of the people involved.

935
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes the more you read about a story,

936
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the less the people involved feel like real people.

937
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: Going through real trauma and pain.

938
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that a

939
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: lot of these stories highlight, which is that once a

940
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: story sort of takes on a shape of its own

941
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: in the media, it becomes almost like fictionalized for people,

942
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: they forget that at the core of the story is

943
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: a young woman who went through a year of extreme

944
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: physical violence at the hands of a man she thought

945
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: was the love of her life.

946
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's easy to forget just what that must have

947
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 6: done to her psychologically and what it would have taken

948
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 6: to recover on top of what she was already facing.

949
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 5: In the press and by the public.

950
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: Right, I mean I just came away from this with

951
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: so much admiration for her, because I think it would

952
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: have broken a lot of people, you know, and she's

953
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: gone on to make this really meaningful life she's really

954
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: proud of. She says in the book, the life that

955
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: I have now is greater, more full, more rich, more

956
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: loving than anything I might have dared to dream. And

957
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: that's just nice to hear, honestly, given what she went through.

958
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: And she did an interview for an E News podcast

959
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen where she's talking to the host about

960
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: how she looks back on this time in her life.

961
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 3: I think that experience really gave me a sense of

962
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: compassion for people, you know. It gave me a sense

963
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: of hoping at least that you can go through difficult

964
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 3: times and situations and really try to be better for it.

965
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 6: It's so nice hearing her voice sounding so confident, full

966
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 6: of strength.

967
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really lovely, and I think that feels like

968
00:48:48,560 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: a good place to end it. This is in retrospect.

969
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Is there a cultural moment you can

970
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: stop thinking about and want us to explore in a

971
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: future episode. Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com,

972
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: or find us on Instagram at in Retropod.

973
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 6: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

974
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 6: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

975
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 6: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

976
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 6: which we may or may not delete.

977
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

978
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 1: and at suzib NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist

979
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: Fight Club and This Is eighteen.

980
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 6: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

981
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 6: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

982
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 6: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Acia is our researcher and

983
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 6: associate producer.

984
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy.

985
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: Our executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norbel.

986
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: Our artwork is from Pentagram.

987
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli, Sound

988
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith.

989
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 2: We are your hosts Susie Vannecarum.

990
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 5: And Jessica Bennett.

991
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 6: We're also executive producers for even more check out in

992
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 6: retropod dot com.

993
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 5: See you next week.