1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Also media Robert Evans here and for the holiday season 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: the end of the year, all that good stuff we 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: are continuing are normally scheduled behind the Bastards episodes, don't 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: you worry, but we also are running some special episodes, 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: compilations from new shows we launched this year and the 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: very best episodes they did. We've dished a couple together, 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: so you've got less ads. You can listen to something 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: that maybe you haven't had a chance to check out yet. 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: And today you're going to hear sixteenth Minute. As in 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: sixteenth Minute of Fame Jamie LOFTUS is excellent news podcasts 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: about the main characters of the Internet and what happens 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: to them after Internet start them. And here's your wonderful 13 00:00:40,200 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: two parter on Mormon influencers. 14 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we talk 15 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: to the Internet's characters of the day and see how 16 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: they're fifteen minutes of fame affected them and what it 17 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: says about the Internet and us. But this week we're 18 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: taking a bit of a side quest to answer a 19 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: question I've been asked quite a bit lately, and I 20 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: didn't know how to answer. Why are there so many 21 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: Mormon women at the top of the social media influencing pile. 22 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: After a recent episode, I saw this question in the 23 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: comments everywhere. I saw it on the sixteenth minute Reddit board, which, 24 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: by the way, someone made if you're interested or have 25 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: thoughts after episodes, And while it did resonate with me 26 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: that the subject of the episode had been raised Mormon, 27 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 2: I didn't want to touch that within the episode for 28 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: a couple reasons. First because they never talk about Mormonism 29 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: in their content and have generally avoided questions about it. 30 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: And second, I didn't have a fucking clue what the 31 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: answer to this question was, even though I understand why 32 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: it was being asked. So this week we're going to 33 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: attempt to answer that question in a two part deep 34 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: dive series, the second of which we'll release on Thursday. 35 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: Because to understand the root. 36 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: Of why Mormonism and present day Mormon mommy influencers are 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: so successful, you've got to understand where the overlaps in 38 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: their interests are and how the values of both of 39 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: these communities line up. So this week we're going to 40 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: get all up to speed on that, and on Thursday, 41 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: Alissa Grenfell will unpack how Mormon mobs have stayed on 42 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 2: top of Internet influencing for the last twenty years. All right, 43 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: let's jump in and take a brief God, I really hope, 44 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: actually brief look into the history of the Mormon Church 45 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: in America, and I'll link to some additional resources in 46 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: the description of the episode. Okay, let's learn about Mormons. 47 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: Mormonism is a nineteenth century religion formerly founded by Joseph 48 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: Smith in eighteen thirty. He was born squarely in the 49 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: middle of the Second Great Religious Awakening in the US, 50 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: a religious revival that would strengthen movements like Methodism, Presbyterianism, 51 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: and the Baptist Church and would birth a lot more 52 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: and Joseph Smith was a kid of this era. He 53 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: grew up without a firm religion, but was curious to 54 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: try things. The Mormon Faith, often called the LDS or 55 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: Latter day Saints, came up shortly after the Shaker's movement. 56 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: The LDS came to prominence around the same time as 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: a number of black church movements like the African Methodist 58 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: Episcopal Church. The LDS shares a little bit of DNA 59 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: with Spiritualism, and you could listen to my limited series 60 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: Ghost Church for more about the history of that. The 61 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 2: mid nineteenth century was a big time of religious change 62 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: and upheaval in the US, and after Mormonism took off, 63 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: new religions continued to pop up. 64 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 3: For example, Jehovah's. 65 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: Witnesses and Christian Scientists weren't far behind Mormonism, but very 66 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: few specific movements from this time still have the cultural 67 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 2: hold on America that Mormonism does. So Joseph Smith releases 68 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: the Book of Mormon and the religion is formalized in 69 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: eighteen thirty, but the religion's origin story connects to two 70 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: incidents from the previous ten years. One was from eighteen 71 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: twenty when Joseph was fourteen and asked both Jesus and 72 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: God which religion to follow, and was told by them 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: follow none of them. It is your job to prepare 74 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 2: the world for the second coming of Jesus. The other 75 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: incident was in eighteen twenty three, when a seventeen year 76 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 2: old Smith is said to have been visited by the 77 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: angel Moroni to repeat this calling, and was also told 78 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: that there was an ancient record regarding God's dealings with 79 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: the quote unquote American continent that he needed to translate 80 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: with a series of tools. When he was a little older. 81 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: After the angel Moroni's visit, Joseph Smith says that he 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: retrieved and divinely translated the text of the Book of Mormon, 83 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: which was inscribed on thin gold plates. There is a 84 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: bit of a wizard of Ozzi equality to the way 85 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: that this translation is dictated. 86 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: There's magic stones. 87 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: He's going behind curtains, and sometimes he wouldn't even use 88 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: the gold plates. He would instead put a special stone 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: in a hat, then bury his face and said hat. 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: But if you're a prophet, he explained, the stone lights 91 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: up within the hat and then you just. 92 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: Dictate from there. 93 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 2: This whole mystical plates thing also comes up in modern scientology, 94 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 2: where members in Florida are engraving the words of l 95 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: Ron Hubburn on to titanium plates as we speak. It 96 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: also harkens back to Helena Blovotsky's notion of the Acaciic 97 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: records of the late nineteenth century, which were said to 98 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: be indestructible tablets of the astral light. So there's that 99 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: a lot of this reminds me of spiritualism, which in 100 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: its early days was composed of a lot of practical magic. 101 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: Great movie and if you're not familiar with the origins 102 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: of the Book of Mormon. To be fair, most religious 103 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: origin stories are not significantly wilder than this. Spiritualism has 104 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: a similarly mystical origin story as for its contents. The 105 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: Book of Mormon details the plight of a group of 106 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: Jewish people in Jerusalem who escaped the city before it's 107 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 2: destroyed in six hundred BC. They built a boat, sail 108 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: it to the Americas, and soon become embroiled in a 109 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: conflict within the group between two groups called the Neophytes 110 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: and the Lamanites. One of the big changes made to 111 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: the Book of Mormon later on is that the Lamanites 112 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: were ancestors of all indigenous Americans. This language would later 113 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: be softened to say that they were among the ancestors 114 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: of some indigenous people. So a group of Jewish people 115 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: migrate to the Americas and become indigenous Americans. 116 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: Okay. 117 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: Jesus is a huge part of Mormonism, and the Book 118 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: of Mormon details that after Jesus is resurrected in thirty 119 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: three AD, he goes to visit the Americas, where he 120 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: is hailed as the pale Prophet. Because yes, Mormon, Jesus 121 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: is white, some of their Other beliefs, as expressed through 122 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith, are that God is a flesh and blood 123 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: being who has a flesh and blood wife, his wife 124 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: who lives far away near a distant star. And God 125 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: tells Joseph Smith that we earthlings were brought into being 126 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: to create these nuclear families, to be closer to God, 127 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: so that one day we can live with God out 128 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: of town on the star where he lives. And to 129 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: create these families. You hear a lot of the classic 130 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: signifiers of fundamentalist religions. There is an emphasis on sacrifice, discipline, 131 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: and suffering. There are rigid gender roles. There's canonical homophobia, 132 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: a third racism that was later scaled back in order 133 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: to accommodate growth in membership. Until a few decades ago, 134 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: the Book of Mormon described members as quote a white 135 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: and delightsome people unquote. To this day, there is still 136 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: a tacit, don't ask, don't tell policy within the church 137 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: about queerness, and that's an improvement from the mid twenty tens, 138 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: when the children of queer parents were still not allowed 139 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: to be baptized in the LDS. Anyways, in his time, 140 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith was for his account declared a prophet by 141 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: Jesus and genuinely did face a great deal of persecution 142 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: in the early days where he was gathering followers in 143 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: New York, he was arrested and ejected from the state 144 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: and took his believers to Ohio to prepare for the 145 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: Second Coming of Jesus in Zion, a location TBD paradise 146 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: where Smith envisioned communities that would be governed by celestial 147 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 2: laws as determined by him. As it progresses, Mormonism grows 148 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: further away from traditional Christianity, and before you know it, 149 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: the Mormons are ousted from Ohio. Smith is tar and feathered. 150 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 2: Before this, the group then moves to Missouri, which is 151 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 2: great because the Lord just so happens to have told 152 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith that that's actually where Zion is, but also 153 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: where the Garden of Eden was. So the Mormons start 154 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: buying up land in Missouri. And to remind you of 155 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: the era of history we're in, this happened in eighteen 156 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: thirty one, just a year after the Indian Removal Act 157 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: was passed and brought about twenty years of brutal genocide 158 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: of the indigenous people. But once in Missouri, the Mormons 159 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: are driven out again, this time with increasing violence, and 160 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: over the next few years they head with Smith all 161 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: over the Midwest, where they're treated with similar hostility most 162 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 2: places they go. At one point, the governor of Missouri 163 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: passed an extermination act. Eventually they moved to Illinois, where 164 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: they're permitted to set up a city of their own 165 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: called Novou basically Zion two point zero, and it's here 166 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: where Smith lightly militarizes the group and increasingly sends out 167 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: missionaries to continue to grow the faith, and at the 168 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: same time, Smith is told by an angel to introduce 169 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: one of the lda Yes's most controversial policies, polygamy. And 170 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: polygamy wasn't something that was allowed to everyone in the 171 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: faith at first, just the powerful in the church, and 172 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 2: during Smith's lifetime the practice was kept fairly quiet. He 173 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,359 Speaker 2: married as many as forty women, some of whom were underage. 174 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: Women were expected to remain in the home, have many children, 175 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: and to this day there is an early and intense 176 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: emphasis on being a wife and mother before all else. 177 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: The end of the line came for Joseph Smith in 178 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: Illinois in eighteen forty four, where non Mormon locals imprisoned 179 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: and then killed he and his brother. He's been hailed 180 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: as an eternal prophet in the Mormon Church ever since, 181 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: and is still an extremely prominent figure in the culture 182 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: to this day. And if you want this story told 183 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: from the Mormon perspective, there's a lot of LDS produced 184 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: movies about it on YouTube that are really well acted 185 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: and actual. 186 00:10:53,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: Being from the unseen world, exerting all my strength to 187 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 4: call upon God, I saw. 188 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: A pillar of life, all right, save it for the pulpit. 189 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: After Smith's death, a guy named Brigham Young takes over 190 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: and the Mormons leave Navoo in eighteen forty six, hiking 191 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: pioneer style to what is now present day Utah, where 192 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: in the next ten odd years they ignored the American 193 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: government and practice polygamy openly. That is, until this was 194 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: going to prevent Utah getting statehood. Polygamy would be in 195 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: LDS sanctioned practice until eighteen ninety, but it was technically 196 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: discontinued at that point to avoid clashing with existing laws 197 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: around bigamy passed in the eighteen sixties and seventies. However, 198 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: a lot of Mormons continued to practice polygamy quietly. In 199 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: today's Mormon marriages, more traditional fundamentalist monogamy is certainly the norm, 200 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: and there's a long complicated history with the Mormons, Utah 201 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 2: and indigenous people because, unlike most accounts of a new 202 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 2: American colony being founded, there were Native Americans in Utah 203 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: when they arrived, and under Brigham Young, LDS members are 204 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: encouraged to purchase Native children as slaves and raise them 205 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: in their homes with the hopes of assimilating them to 206 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 2: the Mormon faith. It's not too dissimilar from the residential 207 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: schools that separated Native families and erase their culture, often 208 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: killing children, all the way into the nineteen nineties. Today, 209 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: there is still a very high number of Mormons in Utah, 210 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: hovering somewhere around forty percent in twenty twenty three. It's 211 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: where Brigham Young University is and where are some of 212 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: the religion's most prominent influencers live today. Ever heard of 213 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. 214 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 5: Salt Lake City, Utah, is known for its magnificent mountains 215 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 5: and world class. 216 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 6: Case STOs, But what Salt Lake City is most known 217 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 6: for is the Mormon Church. 218 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 7: A quick lesson on how to be a good Mormon. 219 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 8: Don't drink don't swear to treat your body like a 220 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 8: Temples Mormon. 221 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 9: We are taught honesty and integrity, and most importantly, to 222 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 9: watch for sue. You're gonna go with Mary your grandfather. 223 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 3: Well, there you go. 224 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: On the other end of that, about a third of 225 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: people raised in the LDS today end up leaving the religion, 226 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: as opposed to the ninety five percent retention rate of 227 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: the late nineteen eighties. So it's important to note the 228 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: Internet age has made a difference in how Mormonism is 229 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: perceived by its own members. And if you're Mormon or 230 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: ex Mormon, you know that I am barely scratching the 231 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: surface here. It's an extremely complicated religion that's been around 232 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: for nearly two hundred years. Things I didn't mention include rituals, observances, 233 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: restrictive religious underwear, and for the very devout missions, which 234 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: are eighteen to twenty four month assignments where LDS officials 235 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: determine a location for a young person to go and 236 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: their job is to recruit people into the church. As 237 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: it pertains to today's episode, it's important to note that 238 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 2: Mormonism is a fundamental religion that has been historically hostile 239 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: to women to queer people into anyone who isn't white. 240 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: What is also. 241 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: Important is that the Mormon Church has a shitload of money, 242 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: A shitload I had no idea. At present, the Mormon 243 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: churches net worth is estimated to be two hundred and 244 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 2: sixty five billion dollars. For context, Disney is valued at 245 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty. 246 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: One billion dollars. 247 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: Much of this has to do with mandatory tithing, where 248 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: church members are required to give ten percent of their income. 249 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: Back to the LDS. 250 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: As for pop culture, Mormonism has been portrayed negatively a lot. 251 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: Think HBO show Big Love and still running Broadway musical 252 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: The Book of Mormon, which of course the LDS condemned. 253 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 5: Hello, my name is Elder Price, and I would like 254 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 5: to share with you the most amazing book. 255 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: Hello, my name is Elder. 256 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: It's a book cub out America a long long time ago. 257 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 9: It has well. 258 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: I wonder why they didn't like that. 259 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: But the LDS has also produced its fair share of 260 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: successful entertainment acts. There no Scientology, but Mitt Romney, David Archiletta, 261 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: Donnie and Marie Osmond and Gladys Knight is still a 262 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: pretty impressive roster. The aquabats are Mormon? Really think about that? 263 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: And of course a ton of currently successful influencers more 264 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: when we come back. The prevalence of Mormon influencers has 265 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: been an increasing point of speculation in the last few months, 266 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: mostly in connection to two stories that have broken through 267 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: to the mainstream. The first story, as I write this, 268 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: a new Hulu reality show that is about to debut 269 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: about Mormon wife influenzas. 270 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 9: I love the Mormon Church, but there are a lot 271 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 9: of rules that we have to follow. 272 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 10: We were raised to be these housewives for the men, 273 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 10: serving their every desires. 274 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 9: Have kids by the time you're twenty one or in 275 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 9: my case, at sixteen, Well, I'm like this. 276 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: We are trying to change the stigma of gender roles 277 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: on the Mormon culture. The central characters of this show 278 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: are existing successful Mormon mommy TikTokers, and if the comments 279 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: on virtually every video of these women is to be believed, 280 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: they are very controversial within the Latter Day Saint community, 281 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: and most would say they do not represent Mormonism in 282 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: spite of the fact that they live in Salt Lake City, 283 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: where the LDS is headquartered. Most of them grew up 284 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: Mormon and part of why they became so popular on 285 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: TikTok was because they were referencing the tenets and values 286 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: of the church. 287 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 11: Have you talked to your bishop or the church about anything? 288 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 9: No? 289 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 11: No, how come I don't know, because like what if 290 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 11: they're going to like excommunicate me. 291 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: This content got really popular under the hashtag mom talk 292 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: on TikTok in the early twenty twenties. And while this 293 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 2: content promotes fundamentalist values around gender rules, due to their popularity, 294 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: the mom talkers were also becoming primary breadwinners for their family. 295 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: The women of mom talk look very modern. They're usually 296 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: wearing Kardashian adjacent athleeture. But the reason they have a 297 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 2: TV show, in my opinion, is not because they blew 298 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: up on TikTok or even really because they're Mormon. It's 299 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: because they were perceived as being bad at being Mormon. 300 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, mom talk influencer Taylor Frankie Paul 301 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: announced that she and her husband would be getting a 302 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 2: divorce because of her violation of the terms of their 303 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: soft swinging within their Mormon friend group. And soft swinging 304 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: is not sanctioned by the LDS in no small part 305 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: because that might actually be fun for women. 306 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 9: Soft swinging, again, is when you like just hug up, 307 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 9: but you don't go all the way. 308 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: It's a huge source of controversy among very online Mormons, 309 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: if the comment section is to be believed, and it's 310 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: not hard to understand why. Add this to the fact 311 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: that mom Talkers were regularly breaking core tenants of the faith. 312 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: They did things like drink caffeine, They didn't wear their 313 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: religious garments beneath their clothes all the time. This soft 314 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: swinging incident might cause a scandal in your average suburban community, 315 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: but Paul's disclosure that there were multiple Mormon couples involved 316 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: caused a stir within the community. So, presented with this 317 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 2: public scandal and subsequent high profile influencer's decision to remain 318 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: within the church, is this bad for the Mormon pr 319 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: team or is all press good press? They haven't been 320 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: excommunicated or anything like that, But the Mormon Church has 321 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: issued the rare condemnation of this upcoming Hulu show. And 322 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: this is rare because the LDS hasn't commented on how 323 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: Mormons are portrayed in pop culture in a while. But 324 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 2: when the secret lives of Mormon wives trailer dropped, the 325 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 2: LDS released the following statement. 326 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 5: The portrayal is a gross misrepresentation that could have real 327 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 5: life consequences for people of faith. A statement by the 328 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 5: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints reads it 329 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 5: depicts lifestyles and practices blatantly inconsistent with the teachings of 330 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 5: the Church and irresponsibly mischaracterizes the safety and conduct of 331 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 5: our volunteer missionaries. We understand the fascinations some in the 332 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 5: media have with the church, but regret that portrayals often 333 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 5: rely on sensationalism and inaccuracies that do not fairly and 334 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 5: fully reflect the lives of our church members or these 335 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 5: sacred beliefs that they hold. 336 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: Dear, there are a lot of Mormon rituals that aren't 337 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: often referenced in this kind of content, but is addressed 338 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: a lot in ex Mormon content. There is rituals like 339 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 2: the washing and anointing. There's endowment, ceremonies and aesthetics that 340 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: are all but directly pulled from Joseph Smith's interactions with 341 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: the American Freemasons. But whether the LDS likes it or not, 342 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: this is the latest step that actively Mormon influencers have 343 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: made into mainstream culture. 344 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 3: Again. 345 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: I haven't seen an episode of this show yet, but 346 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: it looks like the wives are going to be centered 347 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 2: in the story here, which would have been unheard of 348 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: in Mormonism at one time. But what I've learned is 349 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 2: that part of why Mormon influencers are more successful than 350 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: other trad wife Okay, let's define tradwife. 351 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 5: A trad wife is a woman who believes in and 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 5: practices traditional gender roles and marriages. Some may choose to 353 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 5: take a homemaking role within their marriage, and others leave 354 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 5: their careers to focus on meeting their famili's needs in 355 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 5: the home. 356 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: Part of why Mormon influencers are more successful than other 357 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: tradwife influencers of other religions is because the Mormon Church 358 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: has been unusually good at adapting to the Internet and 359 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: always has been. That's not the only reason, but we'll 360 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: get there. If you've managed to make it to Fall 361 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four without having the word tradwife shoved in 362 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: your face, congratulations and sorry, because I am going to 363 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: tell you what it is. Tradwife content is a social 364 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: media trend from about the last half decade where women 365 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: create lifestyle content and make lifestyle changes to more closely 366 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 2: aligned with traditional gender roles, with an emphasis on the 367 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: beauty of a return to old time values. So TikTok's 368 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: about making meals from scratch for five hours, defining oneself 369 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 2: primarily as a wife and a mother, rejecting or abandoning 370 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: a career outside the home, and being generally deferential to 371 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 2: the patriarch, whether that's a husband or father or priest. 372 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: Not all tradwives are Mormons hashtag. Not all tradwives, not 373 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 2: even close, And I'm not going to tackle the topic 374 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: of tradwive content wholesale in this episode. What you need 375 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: to know is the term tradwife shouldn't be conflated with 376 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: staying at home moms, because while tradwife creators are moms 377 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: and at home with the children, making tradwife content is, 378 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: for my money, a separate job from the actual parenting, 379 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: because being a stay at home parent is a job, 380 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: although most cultures are not conditioned to view that labor 381 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: as valid. Tradwife content looks beautiful, high on aesthetic and 382 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: low on practicality, showing only the esthetically pleasing parts of 383 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 2: the nuclear family, and rarely any of the struggle or mess. 384 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: There's a sense of self surveillance to this content, an 385 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: appearance of perfection in the home and family that's projected 386 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 2: to the public, and often visual signifiers that harken back 387 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: to mid twentieth century America. So, if this makes sense, 388 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: tradwives don't look like stay at home moms. They look 389 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: like the advertisements of stay at home moms, and so 390 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: much of what makes their content appealing is that an 391 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 2: incredibly difficult lifestyle to achieve is. 392 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 3: Made to seem easy. 393 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: Attractive, and morally correct. Because if you're making lifestyle content 394 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: of any kind, whether you personally or morally endorse the lifestyle, 395 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 2: you're working in sales. I hate to break it to you, 396 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: how many hot dogs have I sold by accident? Incalculable? 397 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 12: Just not. 398 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 3: The trad life space. 399 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 2: Is predominantly white, but possibly more diverse than you might expect. 400 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: There is an active black track life community who, according 401 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: to a Refinery twenty nine piece by Nyla Burton in 402 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: late twenty twenty two, believe that quote traditional marriage is 403 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: the key to black women's liberation from being overworked, economic insecurity, 404 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: and the stress of trying to survive in a world 405 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: hostile to our survival and existence. Tradwife content is popular 406 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 2: across a lot of religions, but what's consistent across these 407 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: communities is a feeling of performance and this aesthetic of 408 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 2: either mid century housewives or cottage core. In my opinion, 409 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: there's very little intimacy to these posts, in spite of 410 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: the fact that we're seeing inside of a family's home 411 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: and usually seeing their children, who are, make no mistake, 412 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: a part of the business model. While I totally get 413 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 2: why the content is so appealing, it does feel like 414 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: a performance, and a very effective one. I mean, I'm 415 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: like a militant feminist and I would be lying if 416 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: I said I hadn't seen a few tild wife posts 417 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: that made me feel like I was living my life 418 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: the wrong way. But neutral statement, these posts are a performance. 419 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: Think of it like this. The Donna Reed show very 420 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 2: effectively sold the idea of Donna Red as a nuclear 421 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: housewife and mother that lived in this effortless way, and 422 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: in reality, he was a television show that was produced 423 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: by its star, and that the real Donna Read was 424 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: a multi hyphenic creative and a TV pioneer who was 425 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: selling the idea of this housewife rather than actually living 426 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: that life herself. 427 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 6: Well, would you say, missus Johnson, that Donna worked hard 428 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 6: in college? 429 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 12: She worked hard up at seven in the morning, all 430 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 12: day in school and jobs between classes to earn a 431 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 12: little extra money, and then home to earn a roman 432 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 12: board to help me move, cooking and dishes and a 433 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 12: little ironing and men study until midnight. I don't think 434 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 12: she ever had more in six hours sleep. 435 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: From a social media perspective, the track life phenomenon has 436 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: a lot in common with a pattern that we talk 437 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: about on this show all the time. A lot of 438 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: the reason we're still talking about this content is because 439 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: there's been so much backlash and outrage toward it since 440 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: it became popular in the early twenty twenties left leaning 441 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: feminists who believe that the tradwife trend hearkens a dangerous 442 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,479 Speaker 2: period of regression as the American people's right to bodily autonomy. 443 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: Slowly and surely slips. 444 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: Into the very mid century timeframe that tradwives so often 445 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 2: portray in. This outrage does help to fuel the success 446 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 2: of the influencers, because yes, they have millions of followers, 447 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: but the snark reddit boards and hate comments saying that 448 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: tradwives are self hating and glamorizing oppression have engagement in 449 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 2: the hundreds of thousands as well, and as far as 450 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: the algorithm is concerned, engagement is engagement, whether it's positive 451 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: or negative. It reminds me a lot of Friend of 452 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: the Pod Max Fisher's book The Chaos Machine, in which 453 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: he fully illustrates the ways in which modern algorithms are 454 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: designed to enrage. That's why we have so many social 455 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: media stories that are rooted in backlash and then backlash 456 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: to the backlash. Tradwife narratives fall neatly into this pattern 457 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: because for every every bit of phrase, there's an essay 458 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: that's written in stark disagreement. So why is this content 459 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: so popular in the last few years. Friend of the 460 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: Pod Brigid Todd of there are no girls on the 461 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: internet sets. 462 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 7: During uncertain times, people sell easy solutions because our brains 463 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 7: in times of precarity crave simple solutions. But often those comforting, 464 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 7: simple solutions are just placeholders for the reality, which is 465 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 7: that the problem is actually systemic and institutional. You're not 466 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 7: going to dismantle it in your specific nuclear household and family. 467 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 7: If you're only looking within your own family you're not 468 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 7: looking hard enough at the larger issues at play. 469 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: While these accounts have millions upon millions of followers who 470 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: view the content as soothing or aspirational, there are plenty 471 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 2: of modern moms who were completely fucking baffled by it. 472 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: Because I've engaged with so much of this content that 473 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 2: my algorithm will never bounce back, I feel comfortable saying 474 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: that tradwife content is often a lot about subtext, right 475 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 2: projecting a message without explicitly stating it. Maybe the fifties 476 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 2: were a great time for women, Maybe we need to 477 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: bring it back, but there's a sense of encouraging to 478 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: submit to the status quo, a status quo that existed. 479 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: Before a lot of necessary civil rights. 480 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: Were fought for, but online now tradwives man. But let's 481 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 2: bring it back to the Mormon's side of this content, 482 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: specifically because as we're trying to get to the bottom 483 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: of Mormons have found a lot of success in this space. 484 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: Mom sockers are far from the only prominent Mormon content 485 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: creators dominating social media today. The most popular, and so 486 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: by extension, the most embroiled in controversy, is the second 487 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: major Mormon influencer story of the summer Ballerina Farm more 488 00:28:52,760 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: when we come back, maybe welcome back to sixteenth minute. 489 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: The more I learned about tradwives, the more it became 490 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: obvious that they developed in response to the capitalism is 491 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: for girls to actually slay rhetoric of the mid twenty tens. 492 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: But like, is it that different when you're a tradwife entrepreneur. 493 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: It kind of seems like you're doing the same thing, 494 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: but the thing that you're selling is that you're not 495 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: actually doing the thing that I'm watching you doing. And 496 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: when we left off, we were talking about the most 497 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: famous Mormon influencer on the scene today, Ballerina Farm. Where 498 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: do we begin? All my male listeners are getting like 499 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 2: a nosebleed. Ballerina Farm is the user name for a 500 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: Mormon woman named Hannah Nielman, whose follower count on Instagram 501 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: currently sits at ten million. She was raised in the 502 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: LDS and was a tremendously talented ballerina who got into 503 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: and graduated from Juilliard. She cited over and over that 504 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: she was the first undergrad in modern history to be 505 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 2: pregnant while still at Julliard because while there she got 506 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: married to fellow Mormon Daniel Nielman in twenty eleven. 507 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: The year before she graduated. 508 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 2: So both the Neielmans grew up in big, devout Utah 509 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: Mormon families. Hannah was one of nine, Daniel was one 510 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: of ten. They got engaged after only three weeks, and 511 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: while Hannah was still in college, she also started competing 512 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: in beauty pageants. She started with Miss New York and 513 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: then re entered the space after getting married and having kids, 514 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: because Hannah does not stay a ballerina. After graduation, Hannah 515 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: and Daniel moved to England for a semester at Cambridge, 516 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: then Utah so Daniel could finish his degree at Brigham 517 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: Young University, and then to Brazil, where Daniel worked as 518 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: the director of his father's security company for a few years. 519 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 3: Because it must be said. 520 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: Financially, these are incredibly privileged people. Daniel's father founded Jet Blue. Dude, 521 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: they've got money, and he's so Mormon that he worked 522 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: on Mitt Romney's failed presidential campaign in twenty twelve. But 523 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: Daniel's dream is to move back to Utah and live 524 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: on a farm, and they finally do so in twenty seventeen, 525 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: buying the eponymous Ballerina farm. In twenty eighteen. By the 526 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: time they moved on to the three hundred and twenty 527 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: eight acre farm, they had four kids, and when they 528 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: moved onto the farm, Hannah Nielman's online brand as a 529 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: Mormon wife was well established, but significantly less successful. Hannah 530 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: started her social media journey as a mom influencer on 531 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: a blog called We Took the Train in early twenty thirteen, 532 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: shortly after the birth of her first child, Henry, and 533 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: her college graduation. And it's interesting that she intersects with 534 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 2: a completely different era of successful Mormon online influencers because 535 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: in the two thousands into the early twenty tens, Mormon 536 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: mommy blogs were a thing. The Mormon mommy blogger pipeline 537 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 2: was popular for as long as blogs were popular, and 538 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: mommy bloggers in general have always enjoyed massive success and 539 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: usually adapt to new social media platforms pretty easily. I'd 540 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 2: recommend Sarah Peterson's book mom Fluenced for more on this topic, 541 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: because mommy blogging was popular from the very dawn of 542 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: social media, but it was very different than the tradwife 543 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: content that we see today. There was a lot more 544 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: emphasis on writing over visuals, and the writing tended to 545 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: be more confessional writer Catherine Jeezer Morton has been covering 546 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: this space for a long time. I'm quoting here from 547 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 2: a New York Times column called Did Moms Exist Before 548 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: Social Media? From twenty twenty, where she mentions how Mormon 549 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: women entering the mommy blog space changed it. 550 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 7: To overlook the influence of Mormon and other Christian mommy 551 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 7: bloggers on this ship would be a huge oversight. Mormon 552 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 7: mommy bloggers, in particular, were enormously influential in establishing the 553 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 7: esthetic and tone that came to characterize influencer era online motherhood. 554 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 7: Mormonism encourages the careful documentation of family life, and Mormon 555 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 7: mothers were among blogging's earliest and most enthusiastic adopt Unlike 556 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 7: the confessional early mommy blogs, Mormon mother's blogs broadcast a 557 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 7: clean and chipper vision of motherhood, replete with diy crafting 558 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 7: projects and coordinated family photoshoots. Many of the most successful 559 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 7: Mormon bloggers from the mid aughts, like Amber phillerup Clark, 560 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 7: and Naomi Davis, went on to become mainstream lifestyle bloggers, 561 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 7: and although their Mormon faith is no secret, its prominence 562 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 7: were seated as the years passed. 563 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: Early successful Mormon or ex Mormon mommy bloggers included how 564 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: Their Armstrong of Deocey, Amber, Phillerup Davis, and Love Taza 565 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: aka Naomi Davis. Around this same time, successful family bloggers 566 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: like Day Carl and his Family become really popular on 567 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: YouTube and the late aughts into the early twenty tens. 568 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: In fact, Carl's child, Brock, was considered to be the 569 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: first Truman baby, as in The Truman Show, as in 570 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: a child whose life was documented from moment one to 571 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: a massive social media audience. 572 00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 3: Scary. 573 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: This hyper vulnerable mommy blog stuff is considered pretty old 574 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: school now. At the time, Mormon mommy bloggers were a 575 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: part of the coined blogger nacle community, with personalities like 576 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: Stephanie Nielsen of The Nine Dialogues and C. Jane Kendrick 577 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 2: of C Jane enjoy It serving as early examples for 578 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: their crossover appeal outside of the religion. There was even 579 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: an award system developed for successful blogger nacle publications called 580 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: the Nibblets. This went from twenty five to twenty seventeen, 581 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 2: and bloggers who were particularly good at spreading Mormon values 582 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: online got a trophy. And I don't know if you 583 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: feel the same way. But I was really surprised because 584 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: I thought of Mormon culture as so conservative in its 585 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: gender roles that actively encouraging women to speak at all 586 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 2: would be a non starter. But that's not true at all, 587 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: If talks given by Mormon leaders during the early blogging 588 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 2: era are to be believed. 589 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 3: These blogs, blogs. 590 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 2: Et cetera were viewed to be an extension of the 591 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,959 Speaker 2: Mormon mission and a way to get the word out. 592 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 2: I'm pulling this from an LDS news post from two 593 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: thousand and seven. 594 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 5: Apostle urges students to use new media. Two hundred graduating 595 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 5: students at Brigham Young University Hawaii were urged today to 596 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 5: use the Internet, including blogs and other forms of new media, 597 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 5: to contribute to a national conversation about the Church of 598 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 5: Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Elder M Russell Ballard, 599 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 5: an apostle in the church, told the mostly Mormon student 600 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 5: body that conversations about the church would take place whether 601 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 5: or not church members decided to participate in them. We 602 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 5: cannot stand on the sidelines while others, including our critics, 603 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 5: attempt to define what the church teaches, he said. While 604 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 5: some conversations have audiences in the thousands or even millions. 605 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 5: Most are much much smaller, but all conversations have an 606 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 5: impact on those who participate in them. Perceptions of the 607 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 5: Church are established one conversation at a time. Church leaders 608 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 5: have publicly expressed concern that while much of the recent 609 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 5: extensive news reporting on the church has been balanced and accurate, 610 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 5: some has been trivial, distorted, or without context. Elder Ballard 611 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 5: said there were too many conversations going on about the 612 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 5: church for church representatives to respond to each individually, and 613 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 5: that church leaders can't answer every question, satisfy every inquiry, 614 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 5: and respond to every inaccuracy that exists. He said students 615 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 5: should consider sharing their views on blogs, responding to online 616 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 5: news reports, and using the new media in other ways, 617 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 5: but he cautioned against arguing with others about their beliefs. 618 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 5: There is no need to become defensive or belligerent. 619 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 3: He said. 620 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: This feels like a skeleton key to a lot of 621 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: Mormon content. Why Mormons are so online, whether they are 622 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: overtly discussing their religion or not, Modern Mormon missionaries will 623 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 2: very often vlog their experiences. This is from a missionary 624 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: named Grayson Hardman from last year all. 625 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 9: Right, we're all proselyting through it in the heat. We 626 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 9: just had our very. 627 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: First contact really of the day in person. 628 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 4: What happened not interesting. 629 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 2: Posting is all but baked into the religion in the 630 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,959 Speaker 2: modern day, probably in a sour dough that took five 631 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: hours to make. By the time Mormon tradwives and mommy 632 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: bloggers become mainstream famous, they're not wearing their religion on 633 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: their sleeve as much. 634 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: It's more of a soft pitch. 635 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: You usually find out their Mormon whereas if you scroll 636 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 2: all the way down to the beginning of their profile, 637 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 2: they often used to be more overt about the values 638 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 2: they held. But again, to connect it back to that piece, 639 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: this heating to espouse a vision of an ideal Mormon 640 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 2: family without defensiveness belligerence, it kind of makes sense. Okay, 641 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: back to Ballerina Farm. Because Hannah Nielman starts in the 642 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 2: waning days of mommy blogging, she kind of straddles different 643 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 2: eras of social media and Mormons online. She starts mommy 644 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 2: blogging on we Took the Train in the twenty ten's 645 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 2: at the end of the mommy blogging trend, and then 646 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 2: is at the forefront of the Instagram and TikTok Mormon 647 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: mommy blogs, which are wildly different in tone. They're not 648 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: at all confessional and are far more defined by their 649 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: esthetic and this sense of faral certainty. So to give 650 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 2: you an idea of how her narrative voice shifts, here's 651 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 2: an example of how Hannah would speak in her early 652 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 2: blogging days in twenty thirteen. 653 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 7: I've been thinking a lot lately about my life and 654 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 7: just how grateful I really am that I am right 655 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 7: here right now. Two people. One was a past pageant coach, 656 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 7: the other a fellow dancer I want to dance with. 657 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 7: Ask me if I was really happy to have given 658 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 7: up those dreams for where I am today. 659 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 3: I'm so happy. 660 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 7: I am so at peace. I have a husband who 661 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 7: is mine forever. Together, we have a beautiful baby boy 662 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 7: who is full of purity and joy. I get to 663 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 7: dance and teach as much as possible, and I love that, 664 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 7: of course, But there is nothing more rewarding than seeing 665 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 7: my family here right now. I really feel like the 666 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 7: luckiest girl in the world. So yep, I am happy. 667 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 7: Goal for the week, only eat out once. 668 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 2: It's still praising the lifestyle. But even acknowledging her own 669 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: insecurity or the doubt that people in her life had 670 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 2: about her religion is not something you would see today. 671 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: In these early posts, you can really feel Hannah grappling 672 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: with I love dance, but I love my husband and motherhood. 673 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 3: Am I doing the right thing? 674 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: She also talks about going to McDonald's and loving it, 675 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 2: something that wildly differs from her current stance as a 676 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: tradwife slash farm to table influencer. In these early days, 677 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 2: she's working part time teaching dance while raising her eldest son, 678 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: trying to sort of find a balance between traditional values 679 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 2: and what her passions are. This is not at all 680 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: what Ballerina Farm content sounds like. Here's a post from 681 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 2: this year. 682 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 10: Today, we're making some Turkish eggs. So we started off 683 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 10: by straining some of Daniel's homemade yogurt in a cheesecloth 684 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 10: and hung that so it could get a bit thicker. 685 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 9: Can I wash my butter? 686 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 10: I also like to run under some cold water to 687 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 10: get it really nice and washed. 688 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: So Hannah starts as a completely different kind of Mormon influencer. 689 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 2: When I started looking for an answer to this question 690 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 2: why there are so many Mormon women that are successful online. 691 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 2: I was seeing the same answer over and over. Well, 692 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 2: it's because Mormon women are taught to journal a lot. 693 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 2: The Instagram and TikTok content on the farm is wildly successful, 694 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 2: and Hannah and Daniel continue to grow their family that 695 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: now consists of eight children, and they quickly expand this 696 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 2: success to start a series of businesses. They start a 697 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 2: beef farm, they start a lifestyle brand, and Hannah goes 698 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: from a middling blogger to a leading TikTok and Instagram creator, 699 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 2: racking up millions of views on her videos of making 700 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 2: meals from scratch, talking about the advantages of her farm 701 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 2: to table and family first lifestyle, and doing it all 702 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 2: in full makeup and these cottage core flowy dresses. 703 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 3: There's also quiet. 704 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 2: Advertisements in Ballerina Farm content for most of her videos. 705 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 2: You can find affiliate codes on her website for basically 706 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 2: anything you saw her use in the course of the video. 707 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, Hannah had two hundred thousand Instagram followers. 708 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 3: Now she has ten million. 709 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 2: So the days where Hannah was teaching Dan's part time 710 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 2: are long gone. Now she's a farmer who isn't just 711 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 2: running a business and making meals, and as these responsibilities 712 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,280 Speaker 2: pile up, viewers began to question how she was doing 713 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 2: all of this, Like, surely someone is helping with the 714 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 2: kids and the business, right because the kids are homeschooled 715 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: and the meals took hours, and Hannah appeared to be 716 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: making content and co running multiple businesses while also upholding 717 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: conservative values. That's a lot of jobs, but we're not 718 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: really allowed behind the curtain. Part of the content's appeal 719 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 2: is that Hannah made this all look so easy, and 720 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: as she was doing all of this, she continued to 721 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 2: compete in the occasional pageant, winning the title of missus 722 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 2: America in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty three. 723 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 13: What you're all flipping out about is her looking smoking 724 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 13: hot and participating in Miss World right after she gave birth. 725 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 13: I mean, like, I think the placenta probably hadn't even 726 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 13: come out when she was putting on her ball gown. 727 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 13: I mean, she is, That was quick. That was a 728 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 13: quick turnaround. So she's in your head about that. But 729 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 13: why was she not in your head before? I think 730 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 13: you guys just haven't been following her closely enough. 731 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 2: She's projecting the super mom image, right it's unclear to 732 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 2: viewers how it's attained, and you get the feeling that 733 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 2: it either requires a lot of personal sacrifice, a lot 734 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 2: of other people working just outside the frame, or both, 735 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 2: because the alternative is, well, what the fuck is wrong 736 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 2: with me? But this virtuousness, this emphasis on disciplining the body, 737 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 2: the emphasis that ball gowns aside my marriage and family 738 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: are the most important thing, that's a solid ad for Mormonism. 739 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 2: And even so the Ballerina farm family doesn't often reference 740 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 2: the Mormon Church online, it's implied they get ready for 741 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 2: church on camera. There's extreme emphasis placed on the gender 742 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 2: roles in nuclear families. But for someone who comes across 743 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 2: their content by chance, there's nothing that screams these are 744 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 2: Mormons unless you know what to look for in terms 745 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,919 Speaker 2: of home decorror, and this feels by design. You don't 746 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 2: build an empire with the ninth most popular religion in 747 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 2: the US according to Pew research, behind dominant Protestant and 748 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 2: Catholic practices, behind Judaism, and behind other subcategories like atheist, 749 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 2: agnostic end quote nothing in particular unquote. 750 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 3: If you're six. 751 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 2: Places behind Nothing in particular and want to keep growing 752 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 2: your business, it makes sense that they avoid endorsing their 753 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 2: often controversial religion, So in most places, I've seen Ballerina 754 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 2: Farm classified as a soft advertisement for the church and 755 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 2: for feminists with careers who openly advocate on issues like 756 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 2: queer and trans rites and open abortion access. I understand 757 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 2: why Ballerina Farm's success is triggering, and for people who 758 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 2: work on farms that are not bankrolled by JetBlue, the 759 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: account scans as even more of a performance. And then 760 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 2: this past summer. Ballerina Farm has been a popular point 761 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 2: of discussion for years with evangelizing followers and snark blogs 762 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 2: with readership in the six figures, but she comes to 763 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 2: widespread mainstream attention this past summer when a Times profile 764 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 2: written by Megan Agnew suggested that beneath this content was 765 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 2: a very disturbing dynamic. Main takeaways from the article include 766 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,320 Speaker 2: Hannah and Daniel said they met on a plane. It 767 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 2: turns out this was a plane that Daniel's father owned, 768 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 2: and he specifically requested to be set on said plane 769 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 2: beside Hannah, making it the most expensive predatory meetcute I've 770 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 2: ever heard of. Hannah wanted to date for a year 771 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 2: in order to maintain her education at Juilliard, but was 772 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 2: overruled by Daniel. She was engaged a month later and 773 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 2: was married and pregnant soon after that, all before graduation. 774 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 3: There are, of course. 775 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: People working on Ballerina Farm and for their company, they 776 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 2: were just never acknowledged as existing in the content. However, 777 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 2: Hannah is not allowed to have nanny's to help her 778 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,240 Speaker 2: at home, and the article implies that this is Daniel's choice, 779 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 2: and he describes Hannah as becoming so exhausted by caring 780 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 2: for the eight children that she will sometimes collapse for 781 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,280 Speaker 2: a week at a time, which plays into the Mormon 782 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 2: and just generally fundamentalist belief that women's suffering is virtuous. 783 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 2: But to a modern audience, hearing this dynamic within such 784 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 2: a wealthy family felt fucked up. Hannah and Daniel did 785 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 2: not believe involuntary abortion, something their content suggested but never stated, 786 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 2: and that Hannah's identity prior to their marriage and especially 787 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 2: her relationship with Dance, had been slowly choked out by 788 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 2: Ballerina Farm and the Mormon lifestyle. And this story had 789 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 2: reach not only because it was upsetting, but because it 790 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 2: seemed to vindicate and sadden a lot of the people 791 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 2: who had been asking how Ballerina Farm quote. 792 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,399 Speaker 3: Unquote did it all. 793 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 2: The article suggests that the answer is by sacrificing parts 794 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 2: of herself and being exhausted to the point of not 795 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 2: being able to function. Something I thought was interesting while 796 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 2: examining the reaction to this story was that non Mormons 797 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 2: tended to find Daniel Neil as the villain of this 798 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 2: story because it's him who is constantly correct, negging and 799 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 2: suppressing Hannah throughout the profile as written. But ex Mormon 800 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 2: influencers are careful to add a little bit of nuance 801 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 2: to this. Their suggestion is more, does Daniel come off 802 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 2: as an entitled asshole? Yes, but both Daniel and Hannah 803 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 2: are playing their role here. It doesn't excuse the behavior, 804 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 2: but ex Mormon YouTubers like Jordan and Mackay note that 805 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 2: Daniel was playing the part of the devout Mormon husband 806 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 2: to the hilt here. And what I'll say in Ballerina 807 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 2: Farm's defense, While I find the details of this story 808 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,320 Speaker 2: really dark, I do believe Hannah Nielman when she says 809 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 2: that she believes this is the correct way to live, 810 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 2: and the rest of us can make of it what 811 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 2: we will. Hannah has, of course condemned this piece in 812 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 2: a recent post. 813 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 6: A couple of weeks ago, we had a reporter come 814 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 6: into our home to learn more about our family and business. 815 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 6: We thought the interview went really well, very similar to 816 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 6: the dozens of interviews we had done in recent memory. 817 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 6: We were taken back, however, when we saw the printed article, 818 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 6: which shocked us and shocked the world by being an 819 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 6: attack on our family and my marriage. 820 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 2: And her audience has only continued to grow. Honestly, I 821 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,800 Speaker 2: think this article might have helped her in the long run. 822 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 2: But all this, while fascinating, does not answer my question, 823 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 2: why is this a ten million follower account? Hanna Nielman 824 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 2: has not been acknowledged by the LDS as a remarkable asset, 825 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 2: and she doesn't emphasize her religion as she once did. 826 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 2: So is she an asset to the Mormon Church? The 827 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,280 Speaker 2: answer becomes clearer if you start to follow the money. 828 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 2: It's impossible to get meaningful insight into this issue without 829 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 2: talking to people who have been Mormons themselves, who intimately 830 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 2: understand the culture. There is a thriving corner of the 831 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 2: Internet that is built around ex Mormon content, primarily on 832 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 2: YouTube and TikTok as an I'm writing this, there are 833 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 2: plenty of creators who have left the church explaining their 834 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 2: personal experience with the various indoctrinations, cultural stigmas, and oppression 835 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 2: experience within the LDS. Often accounts of their childhood and 836 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,800 Speaker 2: their mission and why they ultimately left. Like pro Mormon content, 837 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 2: ex Mormon creators appear to be very successful, and I've 838 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,920 Speaker 2: watched quite a bit of it in preparation for this episode. 839 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 2: Some resources I've used are the long running Mormon Stories podcast, 840 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 2: which has been going since two thousand and five, and 841 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 2: a number of YouTubers, especially Alyssa Grenfell, who I'll be 842 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 2: talking to in the next part of this episode. Here's 843 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 2: what I'll leave you with. If Mormonism is nowhere near 844 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,399 Speaker 2: the country's most popular religion but is disproportionately represented on 845 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,359 Speaker 2: our social media, then what is there left to look to? Then? 846 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 2: Money and the algorithm, Alissa Grenfell explains in part two 847 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:04,799 Speaker 2: via then. Sixteenth Minute is a production of Cool Zone 848 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 2: Media and iHeartRadio. It is written, hosted, and produced by me. 849 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,360 Speaker 2: Jamie Rostis. Our executive producers are Soghy Lichtterman and Robert Evans. 850 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 3: Amazing. 851 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 2: Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our 852 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 2: theme song is. 853 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 3: By Sad thirteen and Pet. 854 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,800 Speaker 2: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson my Kat's flea 855 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 2: Casper and by Pet Rockford who will outlive us all 856 00:50:28,160 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 2: Bye the Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where 857 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,800 Speaker 2: we take a look at the Internet's characters of the 858 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,359 Speaker 2: day to see how their moment affected them and what 859 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,399 Speaker 2: it says about the Internet and us. 860 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 3: My name's Jamie Loftus. 861 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 2: And this is part two of a series trying to 862 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 2: answer a question that I honestly thought would be easier 863 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 2: to answer, Why is the Internet so dominated by Mormon 864 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,799 Speaker 2: mommy influencers? So if you haven't listened to part one yet, 865 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 2: I recommend you do because this is a frustratingly complicated question. 866 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,320 Speaker 2: Last time we talked about the origins of the Mormon Church. 867 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 2: It stands on race, gender, and sexuality cliff notes not great, 868 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,040 Speaker 2: and it's history of intersecting with conservative leaning social media 869 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 2: trends among women. So think mommy blogs of the two thousands. 870 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 2: Mormon women were at the top of that boom and 871 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 2: were more open about their religion than many influencers are today. 872 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,560 Speaker 2: Think about another ongoing trend, that's a whole subject unto itself, 873 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 2: one I'd like to dedicate more time to in the future. 874 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 2: Mormon women's intersection with major multi level marketing schemes, schemes 875 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 2: that rely on salespeople spending a lot of their own 876 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 2: money with usually diminishing returns if you don't get in 877 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 2: on the ground floor. Utah has the highest concentration of 878 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,240 Speaker 2: MLMs in the country, and the door to door element. 879 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 2: Isn't that unlike the missionary spirit that the devout embark 880 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,280 Speaker 2: on on behalf of the Church of Latter day Saints 881 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 2: or the LDS when they're young adults, sales as a mission. Actually, 882 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 2: if you're into obscure documentaries as much as I am, 883 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,319 Speaker 2: one of the most famous contemporary failed MLM schemes was 884 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 2: actually founded by a Mormon couple, that being Lularo, the 885 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 2: ugly leggings company that was busted in a massive legal 886 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 2: scandal in the twenty tens. 887 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: You tell the. 888 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 8: People you love they're in a pyramid scheme, and they go, no, 889 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,760 Speaker 8: I'm not, You're just a hater. I own my own business. 890 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 8: I'm very successful. 891 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 9: My orders would smell disgusting. 892 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 8: It was just insane. The amount of hoops had to 893 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 8: jump through to get them to ever admit that their 894 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:36,800 Speaker 8: product was faulty. 895 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,880 Speaker 9: I would sometimes open bags and they'd be wet. 896 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,280 Speaker 2: And when it comes to recruiting for MLMs, Mormon women 897 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,839 Speaker 2: tend to be excellent marks. Because of the rigid gender 898 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 2: roles of the religion that encourage many women to stay 899 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,319 Speaker 2: at home. Things like Luloo might be the only opportunity 900 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 2: for them to make a living on their own, not 901 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,439 Speaker 2: to mention the close knit Mormon communities offering a ton 902 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,839 Speaker 2: of customers. It's not quite that simple, but you see 903 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 2: where I'm going with this, And of course, there is 904 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 2: significant crossover with Mormon women and the current, if somewhat dwindling, 905 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,880 Speaker 2: tradwive content that's become extremely popular on Instagram and TikTok. 906 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,359 Speaker 2: We talk about this quite a bit in the first 907 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,000 Speaker 2: part of the series, specifically about users from mom Talk, 908 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,640 Speaker 2: the stars of the new show The Secret Lives of 909 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,239 Speaker 2: Mormon Wives, and Ballerina farm, a ten million follower influencer 910 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 2: who presents stay at homestead lifestyle while say It with Me, 911 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,359 Speaker 2: selling that idea to her followers as a part of 912 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 2: what is very much a job unto itself. 913 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 3: The more I think about. 914 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,800 Speaker 2: It, tradwives are actually not straying from these similarly flawed 915 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,400 Speaker 2: girl boss archetypes the way that they think they are. 916 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 2: But that's for another day, because now we're going to 917 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 2: forge into. 918 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,319 Speaker 3: Part two, shall we? 919 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 2: Even with the context I've given you, I was still 920 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:06,600 Speaker 2: confused because, yes, white heteroconservatism sells online, we know that, 921 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 2: But why this religion, specifically, what about Mormon content is 922 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,400 Speaker 2: bringing them to the top of your feed ex Mormon 923 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 2: influencer Alyssa Grenfell has been asking this question too. She 924 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,880 Speaker 2: was raised an extremely devout Utah Mormon, went on a mission, 925 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,120 Speaker 2: got married at an LDS temple the whole nine yards. Eventually, 926 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,160 Speaker 2: like one in three young Mormons today, she left the 927 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 2: church in her twenties with her husband after they both 928 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,279 Speaker 2: found themselves questioning the values they'd grown up with. For 929 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,759 Speaker 2: Alissa's husband, the radicalizing issue was the church's stance on 930 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 2: gay marriage, and for Alisa, it was a series of 931 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 2: crises of faith over and over. What Alyssa felt God 932 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,120 Speaker 2: wanted for her was directly contradicted by priests and her father. 933 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 2: She was called to do a mission two thousand miles 934 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 2: away from where she expected she was told by her 935 00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,440 Speaker 2: father that God needed her to be a teacher when 936 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 2: she had no interest in teaching and didn't feel she 937 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 2: had the natural skill set to do it. So eventually 938 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 2: the two leave the Mormon Church. They start drinking coffee 939 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 2: and cocktails and Alyssa was motivated to join YouTube after 940 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,200 Speaker 2: self publishing her first book, and while she's been on 941 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 2: YouTube for less than a year, she already has nearly 942 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,440 Speaker 2: a quarter million subscribers, and my favorite video of hers 943 00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:25,400 Speaker 2: presents a pretty compelling theory. Alyssa suggests that sure, Mormon 944 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,520 Speaker 2: tradwife content does play into the algorithm as far as esthetics, 945 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 2: but it's very possible that the Church of Latter day 946 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,640 Speaker 2: Saints itself is bankrolling these Mormon mommy influencers without the 947 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,680 Speaker 2: influencers being able to say for sure that it's them. 948 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:43,600 Speaker 2: Here's a clip from that video. 949 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:48,640 Speaker 9: So different niches, different types of content on the Internet 950 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,719 Speaker 9: make different amounts of money. You can see you're off 951 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,280 Speaker 9: to the side that depending on the type of content 952 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 9: you make, you're gonna make different amounts of money. For example, 953 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 9: anything to do with money and fining makes a lot 954 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 9: more money than a video about cooking. The reason for 955 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 9: this is that the money that you make off your 956 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,920 Speaker 9: content is driven by how much advertisers are willing to 957 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,279 Speaker 9: pay for it. Banks, for example, have a lot of 958 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,960 Speaker 9: money and so they can drive a ton of money 959 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 9: into advertising. So if you made content a video about 960 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,640 Speaker 9: the best bank accounts to open, you could get paid 961 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,280 Speaker 9: approximately twelve dollars and twenty five cents for each one 962 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 9: thousand views on that video. When Google or another ad 963 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 9: platform goes to put ads on top of that content, 964 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 9: they will recognize it as a piece of content that 965 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,200 Speaker 9: advertisers are willing to pay a lot of money for. 966 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,920 Speaker 9: So the length of the video could be the same, 967 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,560 Speaker 9: the person in the video could be the same, but 968 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 9: depending on the content, you're getting paid a wildly different 969 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,560 Speaker 9: amount of money for the type of content you're posting. 970 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 9: A major way that Google and other advertisers figures out 971 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 9: where to put ads is through some than called keywords. 972 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,720 Speaker 9: So these keywords will be something like credit card or 973 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,080 Speaker 9: open bank account. That signal to the algorithm, to the 974 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:13,000 Speaker 9: ad algorithm that you've made content that aligns with what 975 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,560 Speaker 9: advertisers are looking for. 976 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 2: Alyssa only started investigating this search term question when she 977 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,880 Speaker 2: was getting repeated feedback that her viewers were getting ads 978 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,760 Speaker 2: for the Mormon Church on her videos, which is weird 979 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 2: because Alyssa's content is doing the opposite of encouraging people 980 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,520 Speaker 2: to join the church. And what's more, when she looked 981 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 2: into the amount that she was making on YouTube and 982 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,080 Speaker 2: the amount of algorithmic preference she was getting less than 983 00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 2: a year into her time versus other creators, she was 984 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,520 Speaker 2: getting a lot more engagement and making a lot more money. 985 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,919 Speaker 2: Why she explains more in the video. 986 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 9: You can see here that the keyword new bank costs 987 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,080 Speaker 9: twenty five dollars and thirty cents. That's how much advertisers 988 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,360 Speaker 9: are willing to pay for this keyword. So compare that 989 00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,200 Speaker 9: to Catholic that's a huge difference. So if I'm making 990 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,600 Speaker 9: my content about finance, I'm going to see a law 991 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,080 Speaker 9: more ad revenue coming my way because there are lots 992 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,840 Speaker 9: of advertisers who are willing to pay Google to try 993 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,760 Speaker 9: to capture your eye to open a new bank account 994 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,240 Speaker 9: with them. The Church definitely does advertising online, and if 995 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,680 Speaker 9: I go to YouTube and type in Mormon missionary, I 996 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,040 Speaker 9: can see that there's an ad at the top. This 997 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,000 Speaker 9: is an ad that the church paid to put there. 998 00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 9: So Mormon missionary. There's an ad in my YouTube trying 999 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 9: to get me to meet with Mormon missionaries. So we 1000 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 9: already looked at the term Catholic. The cost per click 1001 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 9: the ad revenue behind Catholic is three dollars and fifty 1002 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,880 Speaker 9: eight cents. If you look at the term Baptist, the 1003 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,840 Speaker 9: cost per click is a dollar twenty six cents. I 1004 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 9: tried looking up a religion that's a little closer to Mormonism. 1005 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 9: Jehovah's Witness is an American religion. If you want to 1006 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 9: advertise using the key term Jehovah's Witness, it's going to 1007 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 9: cost you four dollars and sixty four cents. The cost 1008 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,640 Speaker 9: per click for the term Mormon is twenty four dollars 1009 00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 9: and seventy one cents. And if you recall, the Mormon 1010 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 9: Church has more money than Wells Fargo. And the reason 1011 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 9: that that number is so high, I believe is because 1012 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:12,920 Speaker 9: there is a multi billion dollar organization that is funneling 1013 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 9: money into ad spend around the term Mormon. 1014 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,480 Speaker 2: So this theory isn't and can't be proven without the 1015 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,240 Speaker 2: LDS being straightforward about their finances, which will never happen. 1016 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,440 Speaker 3: So I'll let Alissa take it. 1017 01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 2: From here without any further ado. Here is my interview 1018 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,400 Speaker 2: with the fantastic Alissa Grenfell. 1019 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 6: Hi. 1020 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,240 Speaker 9: My name is Elsa Grenfell and I am an ex 1021 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:42,000 Speaker 9: Mormon content creator and author. I was very Mormon growing up. 1022 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,680 Speaker 9: I grew up in a variant about home, and then 1023 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,439 Speaker 9: I left the church when I was about twenty three, 1024 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,800 Speaker 9: after serving a Mormon mission and getting married in a 1025 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 9: Mormon temple and doing all the Mormon things. And now 1026 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,760 Speaker 9: I make content around what you know, the history of 1027 01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:01,160 Speaker 9: the church's current church teachings, the doctrine, personal experienceperiances, and 1028 01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,680 Speaker 9: that is kind of the focus of what I put 1029 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:04,280 Speaker 9: on the internet. 1030 01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,320 Speaker 2: I grew up in Massachusetts. I grew up like like, 1031 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,680 Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about Mormon culture outside of what 1032 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 2: was in pop culture when I was growing up growing 1033 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,720 Speaker 2: up in the Mormon Church. I know that you've made 1034 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,960 Speaker 2: a significant amount of content about this. How are women 1035 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,000 Speaker 2: specifically treated and sort of how are you conditioned to 1036 01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:24,080 Speaker 2: view yourself? 1037 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 9: Some of my earliest memories really are just discussing my 1038 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 9: wedding dress, discussing my husband, writing letters to my future husband, 1039 01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:39,040 Speaker 9: talking about purity, learning homemaking skills, ironing. You know, I'm 1040 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,520 Speaker 9: eight years old ironing a shirt talking about, you know, 1041 01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,160 Speaker 9: taking care of my future family. And it's I think 1042 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,680 Speaker 9: past just the idea that you know, everyone probably should 1043 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 9: learn how to take care of a home or cook 1044 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,720 Speaker 9: a meal, but it was very much posed as this 1045 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,240 Speaker 9: is your divine role from God. And even you know, 1046 01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,520 Speaker 9: there's something called patriarchal blessing which is kind of I 1047 01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 9: would like call it Mormon fortune telling, a little bit 1048 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,080 Speaker 9: where a very important man within the church lays his 1049 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,880 Speaker 9: hands on hit your head and basically is supposed to 1050 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,000 Speaker 9: be speaking as if he's speaking from God and kind 1051 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,080 Speaker 9: of telling you what's going to happen in your future. 1052 01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,880 Speaker 9: Much of my patriarchal blessing was about how I was 1053 01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,360 Speaker 9: going to be a mother in Zion and how I 1054 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,400 Speaker 9: was going to like it was all just about my 1055 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,400 Speaker 9: future children basically and my role as a wife and mother. 1056 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 9: And to think that a man is saying basically the 1057 01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:33,040 Speaker 9: most important things about your future and it's all encompassed 1058 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,360 Speaker 9: around motherhood and wilfhood. And then to read you know, 1059 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,320 Speaker 9: now I read my husband's patriarchal blessing and a lot 1060 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,520 Speaker 9: of male men's patriarchal blessings is not about their children, 1061 01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,680 Speaker 9: their future children. And so if you can compare the 1062 01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,480 Speaker 9: what women are taught, if you compare that with what 1063 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,560 Speaker 9: men are taught, it's also very different. So you could, 1064 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,200 Speaker 9: you know, I think I might have been able to, 1065 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:58,040 Speaker 9: like stomach it if the boys were also learning how 1066 01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,240 Speaker 9: to take a girl on a date or how to 1067 01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,760 Speaker 9: also watch children or change a diaper. But the boys 1068 01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 9: were often doing bad like playing basketball or doing you know, 1069 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:12,560 Speaker 9: hot water rafting, or doing boy scouts, learning to tie 1070 01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,240 Speaker 9: not you know, just more traditional boyhood kind of things. 1071 01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,560 Speaker 9: I think there was the actual kind of training around 1072 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,240 Speaker 9: motherhood and family, but then there was the religious element 1073 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:28,240 Speaker 9: of gender roles as divinely appointed upon. 1074 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,640 Speaker 2: You as I was sort of learning more about you 1075 01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 2: as you were coming of age, all of these gut 1076 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:39,640 Speaker 2: feelings thinking that I'm being guided by God towards this person, 1077 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:45,160 Speaker 2: towards this mission location, towards this job, receiving different answers 1078 01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 2: that not that weren't in your gut. What does it 1079 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,360 Speaker 2: like to process that doubt? 1080 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,280 Speaker 9: I think it's it's really hard because it's very difficult 1081 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,640 Speaker 9: to kind of see outside of yourself and to question 1082 01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,400 Speaker 9: the systems you're raised in a bord especially systems that 1083 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,680 Speaker 9: you're taught as the most moral way to live. I 1084 01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,480 Speaker 9: feel like, even after leaving, I've had a lot of 1085 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,360 Speaker 9: moments where I have to kind of question if my 1086 01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,360 Speaker 9: desire to pursue a certain path is coming from the 1087 01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,960 Speaker 9: real quote, real me versus if it's coming from the 1088 01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:22,200 Speaker 9: conditioning I received as a young person. And I think 1089 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,240 Speaker 9: that in following some of those paths, I have often 1090 01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,480 Speaker 9: found that I'm still kind of living in this reactionary 1091 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:35,880 Speaker 9: state where instead of looking toward what God wants me 1092 01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,360 Speaker 9: to do, I'm often kind of living in a way 1093 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,200 Speaker 9: that is reacting to I just want to do the 1094 01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,560 Speaker 9: opposite of Mormonism, even though that's still kind of living 1095 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 9: my life according to Mormonism, it's just how I'm moving 1096 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,160 Speaker 9: the opposite way instead of kind of somewhere in the 1097 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,960 Speaker 9: middle of this like what I really want kind of 1098 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:55,280 Speaker 9: idea that people have. 1099 01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:00,480 Speaker 2: How do you move forward with so much of your 1100 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,360 Speaker 2: life has been structured around being removed? 1101 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,920 Speaker 9: Yeah, I think initially it was very difficult, and even 1102 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,640 Speaker 9: kind of admitting it to myself was really difficult. Like 1103 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,840 Speaker 9: you mentioned earlier, I had all of these experiences kind 1104 01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,800 Speaker 9: of culminate where, for example, I had a really strong 1105 01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:19,720 Speaker 9: what I felt like was an answer from God that 1106 01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,280 Speaker 9: I was going to go on my Mormon mission to Italy. 1107 01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:25,920 Speaker 9: And I wrote it in my journal and I wrote, 1108 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,720 Speaker 9: you know, I know I'll go to Italy as sure 1109 01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,760 Speaker 9: as I know God lives. And it felt like a 1110 01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:34,800 Speaker 9: little you know, testimony my claim to faith on the topic. 1111 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,880 Speaker 9: And when I opened my mission call, it was to Denver, Colorado, 1112 01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,960 Speaker 9: not Italy. And you know, I still served a full 1113 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,800 Speaker 9: Mormon mission. I still went to Denver, Colorado. I still 1114 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:47,520 Speaker 9: was in the church for years after that. But I 1115 01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,320 Speaker 9: think that is kind of the easiest to encapsulate example 1116 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,480 Speaker 9: of these moments that kind of hit me over and 1117 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,640 Speaker 9: over again where I would have these really strong feelings, 1118 01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,959 Speaker 9: major revelations that I was used to kind of walk 1119 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 9: through life, only to realize that they were either wrong 1120 01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,040 Speaker 9: or that if I had made my own decisions about 1121 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,960 Speaker 9: my own life without consulting God, I probably would have 1122 01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,520 Speaker 9: chosen better than quote God was choosing for me. So 1123 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,280 Speaker 9: as I kind of came to that realization over years 1124 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,160 Speaker 9: and years, my first year teaching, my dad had given 1125 01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,120 Speaker 9: me a blessing that I was meant to be a teacher, 1126 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 9: and that of course I'm going to trust this blessing 1127 01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,600 Speaker 9: above all else. I didn't pursue any other career paths. 1128 01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,560 Speaker 9: And then my first year as a teacher, I realized 1129 01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:35,800 Speaker 9: I absolutely hated it and was not cut out for it, 1130 01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 9: and it was giving me a lot of mental health issues. 1131 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,360 Speaker 9: About halfway through the school year, broke to my husband, Hey, 1132 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,800 Speaker 9: I think I might not believe in this anymore. After 1133 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,240 Speaker 9: a lot of conversations, we both decided that we wanted 1134 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,720 Speaker 9: to leave together after reading a lot of church history 1135 01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 9: for him, after lots of conversations, Like I said, so, 1136 01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,800 Speaker 9: it was really helpful. One of my favorite pictures of 1137 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,360 Speaker 9: our whole marriage is us holding our coffee cups for 1138 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,800 Speaker 9: the first time. For most people, such a simple, straightforward 1139 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,320 Speaker 9: thing is like drinking your morning cup of coffee. This 1140 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,440 Speaker 9: is our first ever cup of coffee. I think I 1141 01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,400 Speaker 9: was about twenty four at that point. Didn't grow horns, 1142 01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,640 Speaker 9: didn't fall beneath the floor, everything proceeded as normal. It 1143 01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,520 Speaker 9: was very underwhelming. Most sins after you leave the church, 1144 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,600 Speaker 9: most sins. As an ex Mormon, you're like, this is 1145 01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:24,400 Speaker 9: pretty underwhelming. I also, one of my favorite memories is 1146 01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,240 Speaker 9: the first time I went to after work drinks with 1147 01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,960 Speaker 9: my coworkers. They're kind of everybody's getting to know each 1148 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,160 Speaker 9: other and like, why did you come to New York? 1149 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 9: And I start talking about Utah Mormonism and leaving the 1150 01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,560 Speaker 9: church and garments, the religious underwear, the temple endowment, the 1151 01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,200 Speaker 9: prayer circle of the ceremony, the oaths and the handshakes, 1152 01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,200 Speaker 9: and I just remember it was probably a group of 1153 01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:46,400 Speaker 9: fifteen people, but as I'm just talking, more and more 1154 01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 9: people to stop their conversations and just lean in to 1155 01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,520 Speaker 9: be like, wait, are you talking about leaving a cult 1156 01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:56,000 Speaker 9: right now? And just like I could. It was kind 1157 01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,120 Speaker 9: of affirming to me to have And you know, I 1158 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,440 Speaker 9: always have those experiences talking to people they don't know 1159 01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,360 Speaker 9: much about Mormons, because you can tell from the look 1160 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 9: on their face that you're not the crazy one for 1161 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,400 Speaker 9: thinking you were raised in a very crazy religion. Whereas 1162 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,400 Speaker 9: you know, if you're kind of talking to people in Utah, 1163 01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,360 Speaker 9: maybe they'll kind of act like, oh, this is all 1164 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,479 Speaker 9: very normal. You know, of course Mormons were garments, but 1165 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,920 Speaker 9: to someone who's never interfaced with the religion, it is 1166 01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,960 Speaker 9: probably ten to twenty times stranger and odder then people 1167 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,599 Speaker 9: who are familiar with it, So that kind of surprise 1168 01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,200 Speaker 9: on people's faces has been healing for me in some 1169 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,799 Speaker 9: ways because it helps me feel like I'm not the sinner, 1170 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,080 Speaker 9: I'm not the crazy one. It was what I was 1171 01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:41,600 Speaker 9: raised in, and that normalcy is not what I experienced 1172 01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,800 Speaker 9: as a kid, learning to iron shirts as an eight 1173 01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:46,960 Speaker 9: year old and writing letters to my husband about how 1174 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:48,559 Speaker 9: I was saving myself for him. 1175 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,680 Speaker 2: So, yeah, you're coming of age alongside the Internet and 1176 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,880 Speaker 2: you're growing up with these very rigid beliefs. What was 1177 01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:59,640 Speaker 2: your relationship with the Internet as you were coming of 1178 01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:01,360 Speaker 2: age into your early adulthood. 1179 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,640 Speaker 9: Oh, I think that one of my first Mormon memories 1180 01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,080 Speaker 9: is that there is there's a YouTuber who would go 1181 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:14,280 Speaker 9: around and film the temple ceremonies. I remember, probably when 1182 01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,400 Speaker 9: I was like late middle school, early high school, coming 1183 01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:21,200 Speaker 9: across the thumbnail of you know, secrets inside a Mormon Temple, 1184 01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,479 Speaker 9: and okay, I remember thinking to myself, you know, I 1185 01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,080 Speaker 9: didn't click on it. And I remember I had friends 1186 01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,200 Speaker 9: at school who would say, you know, you can see 1187 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:32,879 Speaker 9: what happens in the temple if you go on YouTube, 1188 01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,679 Speaker 9: and I remember, like, you know, that's probably what they're 1189 01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,120 Speaker 9: talking about. It's right there. I didn't click on it, 1190 01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,000 Speaker 9: and I you know, as a Mormon kid, you very 1191 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:44,320 Speaker 9: much learned the term anti Mormon literature, that that's a 1192 01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,000 Speaker 9: whole thing you're warned against, that you should you shouldn't 1193 01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,439 Speaker 9: look at anti Mormon literature. They're just trying to destroy 1194 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,400 Speaker 9: your testimony. And so I remember just thinking to myself, Oh, 1195 01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:57,000 Speaker 9: this is anti Mormon content, and I shouldn't watch it. 1196 01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:58,960 Speaker 9: And so when I was still in high school, I 1197 01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,719 Speaker 9: think if I came across anything disfavorable about the church, 1198 01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,760 Speaker 9: I immediately just turned my brain off and thought, you know, 1199 01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,439 Speaker 9: this is Satan. They told me about this, and so 1200 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,280 Speaker 9: because they told me about this, that's how I know 1201 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,520 Speaker 9: that they are kind of foreseeing or foretelling the futures, 1202 01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,400 Speaker 9: because they're warning me of this thing that I shouldn't 1203 01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:17,800 Speaker 9: look at. 1204 01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,680 Speaker 2: So you grow up alongside the Internet and then you 1205 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 2: start to see this influx of influencers who I first 1206 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,479 Speaker 2: just saw labeled as trad wives, the like Mormon aspect 1207 01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,000 Speaker 2: and not you know whatever hashtag. Not all tradwives are Mormon, 1208 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,800 Speaker 2: but many of them are. Many of the most successful 1209 01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:39,960 Speaker 2: influencers are the Utah Mormon based or create the content 1210 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:44,639 Speaker 2: that really appeals. So when did you start noticing this 1211 01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,840 Speaker 2: content and yeah, what did you make of it? 1212 01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,240 Speaker 9: That's a good question, And I mean, I feel like 1213 01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 9: my whole childhood was kind of tradwife content in a way. 1214 01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,400 Speaker 9: I feel like to some extent, I think that it's 1215 01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,840 Speaker 9: also a question of platform, because I feel like Instagram 1216 01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:04,479 Speaker 9: is meant for curation, and TikTok is kind of meant 1217 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:09,400 Speaker 9: to question curation and to criticize curation. So I think 1218 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,599 Speaker 9: that a lot of trad wife content kind of came 1219 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:18,840 Speaker 9: up in the Instagram age, which is beautiful children, beautiful dresses, 1220 01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 9: lovely sour dough, and it's very curated. It's often photos 1221 01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,240 Speaker 9: instead of videos, so it's harder to pick apart a 1222 01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,439 Speaker 9: curated photo instead of a video where there's like a 1223 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,160 Speaker 9: voice in the background, or you know, you can pause 1224 01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,640 Speaker 9: the screenshot and say, what is what's the picture on 1225 01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,759 Speaker 9: their wall? So I think that the kind of transition 1226 01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,599 Speaker 9: away from Instagram into TikTok is also what kind of 1227 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:47,760 Speaker 9: opened my mind more to the trad wife movement in specificity, 1228 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,600 Speaker 9: I guess because prior to that, I just see, you know, 1229 01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,479 Speaker 9: beautiful kind of like a lot of people say that 1230 01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:57,920 Speaker 9: the Mormon tradwife movement came from Mormon mommy bloggers, which 1231 01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,280 Speaker 9: were super prevalent in the early two which is a 1232 01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 9: lot of recipe making and DIY stuff. And so it's 1233 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,799 Speaker 9: kind of like this movement kind of re materialized onto 1234 01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,600 Speaker 9: Instagram after they already had their original audience on the 1235 01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,479 Speaker 9: blogging side of things. I think where it kind of 1236 01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:19,680 Speaker 9: hit its head is when we turn more to a 1237 01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:23,720 Speaker 9: TikTok type of investigation of things, where people are no 1238 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:27,479 Speaker 9: longer looking for perfection or they're not looking to follow 1239 01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,360 Speaker 9: people that their post their posts just feel like a 1240 01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:33,679 Speaker 9: Pinterest board. I think Mormon is in very pinteresty. Mormon's 1241 01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,280 Speaker 9: love findst to in my in my experience. So I 1242 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:39,280 Speaker 9: think that that is what has kind of kicked back 1243 01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,920 Speaker 9: against tradwifs is that for a long time, I think 1244 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:47,320 Speaker 9: people just unquestioningly consumed the beautiful content. And when there's 1245 01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:49,920 Speaker 9: a voice over to a photo and the photo is 1246 01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,559 Speaker 9: not just it's a pretty photo of kids and some bread, 1247 01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:56,360 Speaker 9: Now it's I made this this for my husband or 1248 01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,360 Speaker 9: I made this for my family, and then you know, 1249 01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,400 Speaker 9: and there's more of a narrative, Like the new video 1250 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,200 Speaker 9: form of the tradwife content is narrative and so it 1251 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,320 Speaker 9: is developing much more of an ideology, in my opinion, 1252 01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:13,040 Speaker 9: behind the curative video the pictures that we once had, 1253 01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,599 Speaker 9: and I think two Mormons are taught to be so 1254 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:20,639 Speaker 9: missionary minded that if someone is Mormon, they've probably talked 1255 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,280 Speaker 9: about it at some point. I mean, the Mormon Church 1256 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,280 Speaker 9: literally expressly says you should be talking about being Mormon online. 1257 01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,280 Speaker 9: You're told that explicitly, and so that also is an 1258 01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:35,040 Speaker 9: element of I think Mormon influencers are louder about their 1259 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,240 Speaker 9: religion than a lot of influencers because they are acting 1260 01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,080 Speaker 9: on that kind of command from the prophet to speak 1261 01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,360 Speaker 9: loudly and speak often about their religion. 1262 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,559 Speaker 2: It seems also because of how the algorithm works at 1263 01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,360 Speaker 2: any given point in time, there have been times where 1264 01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:57,320 Speaker 2: I have gotten content piped to me from a Mormon influencer, 1265 01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:01,759 Speaker 2: but the content that I get it's not immediately clear. 1266 01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,360 Speaker 2: Where a lot of tradwave accounts that have ended up 1267 01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,360 Speaker 2: in my feed it takes me a little while to 1268 01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:11,679 Speaker 2: catch on that there is a specific religious element. 1269 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,400 Speaker 9: Is that something you've also noticed? 1270 01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,479 Speaker 2: Do you feel that there's sort of any reasoning behind 1271 01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,920 Speaker 2: that because you're saying, you know, the church wants you 1272 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,200 Speaker 2: to talk about your religion as much as possible, But 1273 01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,400 Speaker 2: it feels like with some influencers, to what end was 1274 01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:26,000 Speaker 2: not always clear to me right away. 1275 01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:31,000 Speaker 9: Yeah, in my opinion, the prevalence of people who are 1276 01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:35,280 Speaker 9: influencers mentioning Mormonism is greatest in their early stages, when 1277 01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,840 Speaker 9: they're first getting an audience, when they're first kind of 1278 01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,760 Speaker 9: finding their voice. I think once people reach like a 1279 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,519 Speaker 9: critical mass of no longer just having Mormon followers, they 1280 01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,440 Speaker 9: have a lot of just general interest in their platforms. 1281 01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,439 Speaker 9: It's almost like a graph where the bigger they get, 1282 01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:53,439 Speaker 9: the less they mention Mormonism because I think they realize 1283 01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:57,000 Speaker 9: that it's unpopular to a general audience, but it's very 1284 01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,360 Speaker 9: popular with the audience that you're growing early on. So 1285 01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:03,320 Speaker 9: I think that you know, for example, I know Ballerina 1286 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,840 Speaker 9: Farm used to have a blog specifically about Mormonism, but 1287 01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,240 Speaker 9: if you google is so and so Mormon, you can 1288 01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,280 Speaker 9: always find an answer because they talked about it a 1289 01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:13,799 Speaker 9: lot early on, and there's always like an early interview. 1290 01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,919 Speaker 9: Same with Brooklyn and Bailey. They're not really tradwife stuff anymore, 1291 01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,439 Speaker 9: but they just have a big YouTube channel and they 1292 01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,599 Speaker 9: talked quite a bit about Mormonism early on, and now 1293 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,880 Speaker 9: it essentially never appears. I think one of them has left, 1294 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,000 Speaker 9: I'm not sure. Initially to grow their audience, they're talking 1295 01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:33,840 Speaker 9: a lot about Mormonism because Mormons will follow you because 1296 01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:36,519 Speaker 9: they know your Mormon. And then after they get big, 1297 01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:39,280 Speaker 9: they see it as maybe a bit more of a risk, 1298 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,200 Speaker 9: or maybe that because they have more money and they're 1299 01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,559 Speaker 9: like a little bit less beholden to their community, maybe 1300 01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:47,760 Speaker 9: they're less likely to talk about it because they kind 1301 01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:49,920 Speaker 9: of can take on their own form of what they 1302 01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:52,600 Speaker 9: want to be talking about on the internet. So many Christians, 1303 01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,800 Speaker 9: I think if they see Mormon content and don't know 1304 01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,040 Speaker 9: it's Mormon content or just like you know, even tradwife 1305 01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:00,880 Speaker 9: content obviously appeals to kind of a more far right ideology, 1306 01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:02,840 Speaker 9: and I think all of those people, if they come 1307 01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:06,519 Speaker 9: across you know, trad wife content in general, they'll upvote 1308 01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:09,160 Speaker 9: it or like it or interact with it. The hard 1309 01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,519 Speaker 9: thing for Mormons is that a lot of people, just 1310 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,080 Speaker 9: especially like evangelical Christians, do not really like Mormons, and 1311 01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,040 Speaker 9: especially they don't like that they're trying to kind of 1312 01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,600 Speaker 9: co op. Then they would say the Christian movement or 1313 01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,920 Speaker 9: whatever and say they're Christians, and there's a lot of 1314 01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,040 Speaker 9: tension between are they Christians, aren't they Christians? So I 1315 01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,640 Speaker 9: think that that's another difficulty that they kind of have 1316 01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,519 Speaker 9: to interface with, is that their content, by its nature 1317 01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,960 Speaker 9: of being kind of traditionally minded, appeals to this audience 1318 01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:38,639 Speaker 9: of a more like conservative Republican audience. But if they're 1319 01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:42,040 Speaker 9: too overt about their specific religion, I think, you know, 1320 01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:44,720 Speaker 9: if you're viewing it, which I do a little bit 1321 01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:46,880 Speaker 9: more as kind of like a brand that they're selling 1322 01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:49,960 Speaker 9: versus like their quote truth, real life or whatever, then 1323 01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:52,880 Speaker 9: they are recognizing that there's a risk to the brand 1324 01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,720 Speaker 9: in bringing that to the forefront. Now a brand is 1325 01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,679 Speaker 9: large enough that it's kind of reaching a mass audience. 1326 01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,000 Speaker 9: But I don't know, I don't know if I'm just 1327 01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:04,280 Speaker 9: jaded or something like, if I'm viewing them too much 1328 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,840 Speaker 9: as like business minded versus if they just you know, 1329 01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,040 Speaker 9: if they're just kind of waking up each morning, rolling 1330 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:12,400 Speaker 9: out of bed, posting their pictures and not really wondering 1331 01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:15,599 Speaker 9: about audience retention or who sees what when, and how 1332 01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,599 Speaker 9: can I reach the broadest number of people. So it's 1333 01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,280 Speaker 9: hard to get into the mind of these people really. 1334 01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:39,040 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more with Alyssa Grenfell. Welcome 1335 01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,160 Speaker 2: back to sixteenth minute. I sort of had to wear 1336 01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,640 Speaker 2: something like temple garments in my youth, but it was 1337 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:47,439 Speaker 2: these shoulder to me stinky cotton shirts I wore underneath 1338 01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,160 Speaker 2: my back brace. And unfortunately there's no question about my 1339 01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,519 Speaker 2: personality that can't be answered with the sentence I wore 1340 01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,000 Speaker 2: a back brace for my entire adolescence. And now we 1341 01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:02,000 Speaker 2: continue our conversation with X more influencer and great theory 1342 01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:06,679 Speaker 2: havever Alyssa Grenfell. As I was sort of learning more 1343 01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,720 Speaker 2: about a recent subject I was covering, I found that 1344 01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,599 Speaker 2: out that the family was Mormon, but didn't really talk 1345 01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:15,120 Speaker 2: about it, and a lot of people were saying like, oh, 1346 01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:16,840 Speaker 2: you should do an episode of but like why are 1347 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,920 Speaker 2: there so many successful Mormon women in the influencing space? 1348 01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:22,920 Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, I have no idea. 1349 01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:26,880 Speaker 2: And you mentioned sort of the most popular answer given, 1350 01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,600 Speaker 2: which is what I was encountering a lot, which was 1351 01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:32,920 Speaker 2: that young Mormon women are taught to journal a lot, 1352 01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:38,040 Speaker 2: so that's probably why they're successful at influencing. Doesn't not 1353 01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:42,639 Speaker 2: make sense, but felt just like a very incomplete answer. 1354 01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,679 Speaker 2: Could you take me through What made you start asking 1355 01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,240 Speaker 2: this question? Because people were telling you that they were 1356 01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,800 Speaker 2: getting ads for the Mormon Church on your content. That 1357 01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:52,120 Speaker 2: was how that started, right. 1358 01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,200 Speaker 9: Yeah, every interview I've ever spoken to is like why 1359 01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:57,120 Speaker 9: are there so many Mormon influencers? And I think they 1360 01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:00,840 Speaker 9: often ask it almost like in this secret, like can 1361 01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:03,880 Speaker 9: you tell me the answer? Like like I have this 1362 01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,840 Speaker 9: secret that I'm keeping, and if I could just explain it, 1363 01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,880 Speaker 9: like like then that would explain the phenomenon. And it's 1364 01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:13,160 Speaker 9: I think it's you know, I think something like women 1365 01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,519 Speaker 9: journal and there was the mommy bloggers, and blogging is 1366 01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:18,680 Speaker 9: like journaling, and then once they're blogging, then they're on 1367 01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:22,439 Speaker 9: Instagram and it feels easy to understand. But I agree, 1368 01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:25,320 Speaker 9: like it feels kind of thin because lots of people 1369 01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,040 Speaker 9: journal and it doesn't mean that you're going to be 1370 01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,439 Speaker 9: famous one day just because you were journaling a lot 1371 01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:32,519 Speaker 9: when you were a little kid. But when I was 1372 01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:36,439 Speaker 9: posting my videos, I you know, especially initially, I'm still 1373 01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:39,040 Speaker 9: like learning YouTube. I think my first YouTube video was 1374 01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,200 Speaker 9: like ten months ago or something. I'm still under one 1375 01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,439 Speaker 9: year of learning this whole platform and stuff. But I 1376 01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,640 Speaker 9: would have people say so funny, I just got to 1377 01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:49,719 Speaker 9: ad for the Mormon Church while I was watching this video, 1378 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:52,800 Speaker 9: and I, you know, thinking it's so funny that they 1379 01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,559 Speaker 9: are advertising on my content, which, obviously, if you understand 1380 01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,240 Speaker 9: the back end, the Mormon Church purchases ad space through 1381 01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:04,040 Speaker 9: Google Google ad Sense, and then Google ad Sense looks 1382 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,160 Speaker 9: for content that is relevant to put the ad on 1383 01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:09,080 Speaker 9: top of. So it's not like the Mormon Sure's saying 1384 01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,519 Speaker 9: we like Alyssa Grenfell definitely not saying that, but the 1385 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,599 Speaker 9: algorithm is basically looking for people saying Mormon, Mormon, Mormon 1386 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,519 Speaker 9: or Utah or whatever and then putting their ad space 1387 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,800 Speaker 9: their AdSpend behind that content. And I also, kind of 1388 01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:27,760 Speaker 9: in tandem with that, was on the YouTube subreddit and 1389 01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,479 Speaker 9: looking at the stuff about YouTube and realizing that my 1390 01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:33,679 Speaker 9: CPM and my RPM, which is kind of how much 1391 01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:36,599 Speaker 9: you make off of your videos, was way higher than 1392 01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:40,400 Speaker 9: basically almost anyone else was quoting that, like my average 1393 01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:42,960 Speaker 9: kind of pay per view or pay per click or 1394 01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:47,599 Speaker 9: whatever was much higher than just kind of your average channel. 1395 01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:51,120 Speaker 9: I used to do some SEO for a previous employer, 1396 01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:54,600 Speaker 9: and I went and looked at the ads spend estimated 1397 01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,160 Speaker 9: behind different keywords. Because people don't realize that the AD 1398 01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,000 Speaker 9: spend behind something like crafting is not the same as 1399 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,040 Speaker 9: the AD spend behind something like open a new credit card, 1400 01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:07,960 Speaker 9: because it's basically the ad spend is proportionate to how 1401 01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:10,880 Speaker 9: much the advertiser is willing to spend to get the 1402 01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:14,000 Speaker 9: eyes of the viewer. So I realized, basically when I 1403 01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,799 Speaker 9: went and looked at the ad spend behind someothies terms, 1404 01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:20,960 Speaker 9: that the ad spend was as high as very expensive 1405 01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,200 Speaker 9: advertising terms. So like to open a new credit card 1406 01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,680 Speaker 9: was thirty dollars per click, and something like crafting or 1407 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,240 Speaker 9: maybe like sour dough bread is like two dollars. It's 1408 01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,760 Speaker 9: very low. So when I looked at Mormon terms like 1409 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:39,439 Speaker 9: Mormon missionary was thirty dollars and Utah influencer was nineteen dollars, 1410 01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:44,000 Speaker 9: Mormon was twenty five dollars. And these are ad spends 1411 01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:48,639 Speaker 9: that are phenomenally high, especially when compared even with another religion. 1412 01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:53,519 Speaker 9: You know, Catholicism or Catholic is two dollars. Judaism or 1413 01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:55,320 Speaker 9: jew is maybe four dollars. 1414 01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:58,599 Speaker 2: As someone raised Catholic, I was like, wow, Catholics found 1415 01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:03,320 Speaker 2: dead in a ditch. A profitable not a profitable YouTube 1416 01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:07,479 Speaker 2: grip I was truly blown away with how many times 1417 01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,120 Speaker 2: higher those keywords were scanning. 1418 01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,519 Speaker 9: Yeah, and it felt like people don't realize that the 1419 01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:16,120 Speaker 9: Mormon Church is the richest church on the planet. It's 1420 01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:19,599 Speaker 9: similar to the net worth of Disney, you know, so 1421 01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,879 Speaker 9: I mean, which I also have no idea the value 1422 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:26,799 Speaker 9: of Disney. I think it's potentially even worth more than Disney. 1423 01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,439 Speaker 9: So it felt like there has to be some connection 1424 01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:32,960 Speaker 9: between the high ad spend on these keywords. I'm seeing 1425 01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:35,439 Speaker 9: it literally in my content. I'm seeing that I'm making 1426 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,280 Speaker 9: more off of my videos than the average YouTuber, and 1427 01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:44,720 Speaker 9: then extending that to Utah influencers, which is that when 1428 01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:49,240 Speaker 9: they're making content, they're making more money, and basically realizing 1429 01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:53,040 Speaker 9: that because there's more money to be had out in Utah, 1430 01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:57,080 Speaker 9: that it can just support a far larger number of creators, 1431 01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:00,479 Speaker 9: especially in that phase of getting off the ground, right 1432 01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,320 Speaker 9: when they're talking about Mormonism the most, right when they're 1433 01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:06,439 Speaker 9: kind of like, let me try influencing for a bit, right, 1434 01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:08,760 Speaker 9: you know, before they get the brand sponsorship, before they 1435 01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:12,080 Speaker 9: get all the clicks for the commissions on Amazon whatever. Like, 1436 01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,000 Speaker 9: I think I just basically took what was happening to 1437 01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:17,439 Speaker 9: me and thought, what's happening to me is happening to 1438 01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:22,879 Speaker 9: all these Utah Mormon influencers. They're being paid the same amount. 1439 01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,719 Speaker 9: Like if a guy is making finance content about investing 1440 01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,559 Speaker 9: in the S and P and they're making videos about sourdough, 1441 01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:30,760 Speaker 9: those people are making the same amount of money, which 1442 01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:32,840 Speaker 9: is highly irregular. 1443 01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:38,120 Speaker 2: I had no idea how much money the Mormon Church has. 1444 01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:40,599 Speaker 2: As you explained the video, the Church is welcome to 1445 01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,000 Speaker 2: pour as much money into these keywords as they like, 1446 01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:46,479 Speaker 2: but they can't control whether the keywords are being talked 1447 01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,679 Speaker 2: about favorably. So it seems like there's like a world 1448 01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:53,479 Speaker 2: where the Mormon Church is accidentally cutting you checks for 1449 01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:56,000 Speaker 2: talking about why you let. 1450 01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,519 Speaker 9: Anyone else you know? And I think that maybe to 1451 01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:02,599 Speaker 9: them it's worth it. I mean, I haven't seen those 1452 01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:04,479 Speaker 9: comments of I just got an ask for the Mormon Church. 1453 01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:06,760 Speaker 9: I'm still getting those comments, so I don't know, Like, 1454 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:08,800 Speaker 9: I don't think I added them to the point that 1455 01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:12,000 Speaker 9: they're changing their strategy or anything. But it is kind 1456 01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,240 Speaker 9: of funny to realize that they are kind of engineering 1457 01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:18,280 Speaker 9: their own crisis by making it so that it's profitable 1458 01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:21,920 Speaker 9: enough to be a YouTuber talking about Mormonism that they 1459 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,120 Speaker 9: are kind of supporting the YouTuber's little you know, rent 1460 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,719 Speaker 9: payment or whatever. YouTuber can keep going and keep making 1461 01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:32,160 Speaker 9: the negative videos. And it's a very funny little cycle 1462 01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:34,760 Speaker 9: considering I once paid ten percent of my income to 1463 01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,479 Speaker 9: the church and now I'm slowly making it back. 1464 01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,880 Speaker 2: Tad wife influencers that started by talking about Mormonism quite 1465 01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:44,800 Speaker 2: a bit and probably don't talk about it as much now, 1466 01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:50,200 Speaker 2: they are also sort of getting cuts of this, even 1467 01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,360 Speaker 2: if they're not explicitly talking about the Mormon Church anymore. 1468 01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:56,040 Speaker 2: Do you think even if an influencer who started talking 1469 01:24:56,080 --> 01:25:01,080 Speaker 2: about Mormonism isn't anymore, does this still help the church. 1470 01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:05,040 Speaker 9: The most fascinating was that the term the search term 1471 01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:09,679 Speaker 9: Utah influencer. I think Utah influencer made about nineteen dollars 1472 01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:12,559 Speaker 9: per click. So if you compare that with New York 1473 01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:16,960 Speaker 9: City influencer, you know, San Francisco influencer, places where you assume, 1474 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,400 Speaker 9: you know, that's the influencer capital of the world because 1475 01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,839 Speaker 9: that's especially of the US. Those are all under five dollars. 1476 01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:26,960 Speaker 9: So you know, like I said, it's almost three times 1477 01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:29,479 Speaker 9: they're making three times as much. So a woman, a 1478 01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:31,400 Speaker 9: woman with her kids in New York, a woman with 1479 01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:33,519 Speaker 9: her kids in LA and a woman with her kids 1480 01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:37,559 Speaker 9: in Lehigh, Utah. The woman in Lehigh, Utah will probably 1481 01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:40,080 Speaker 9: make three times as much the AD revenue with a 1482 01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:43,160 Speaker 9: lower cost of living right and lower cost of living. 1483 01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,439 Speaker 9: And you know, probably her husband already has a job 1484 01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,040 Speaker 9: because he's been kind of trained to be the bread winner, 1485 01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,040 Speaker 9: just like she's been trained to be the housewife. As 1486 01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:54,840 Speaker 9: far as the church benefiting from it, I think it 1487 01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,200 Speaker 9: definitely does. Think I've had people tell me through comments 1488 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,400 Speaker 9: or I've had some emails of people saying that Ballerina 1489 01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:06,120 Speaker 9: Farm just her content made them Google. You know, Mormons 1490 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:09,000 Speaker 9: started looking to the church, considering getting a visit from 1491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,920 Speaker 9: the missionaries, consider getting a Book of Mormon. And it's 1492 01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,400 Speaker 9: kind of like a very soft advertisement in my opinion, 1493 01:26:15,439 --> 01:26:17,479 Speaker 9: where it's not someone coming on and saying I'd like 1494 01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:18,960 Speaker 9: to talk to you about why you should join them 1495 01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:22,880 Speaker 9: at church. But when you see a lifestyle presented that's 1496 01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,120 Speaker 9: very alluring and very beautiful, and you think to yourself, 1497 01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:28,959 Speaker 9: what it is about this person that made this lifestyle possible, 1498 01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:32,160 Speaker 9: and you realize they're part of the church. I think 1499 01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:35,760 Speaker 9: it kind of gives a higher level of influence to 1500 01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,080 Speaker 9: potentially someone who's curious and wondering what they can do 1501 01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:42,440 Speaker 9: to kind of live that life that they're seeing fantasized. 1502 01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,000 Speaker 2: Final thing, I mean, I just wanted to mention and 1503 01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:48,160 Speaker 2: talk a little bit as far as your theory goes, 1504 01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:51,599 Speaker 2: is that this is a way to sort of have 1505 01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:57,880 Speaker 2: these posterboard influencers kind of representing, if not the church explicitly, 1506 01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:01,960 Speaker 2: the you know, gender roles and the ideals of the 1507 01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:05,040 Speaker 2: church and the day to day without having it be 1508 01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:09,120 Speaker 2: traced back to supposing Ballerina firm you know, wakes up 1509 01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:12,240 Speaker 2: tomorrow and is like I'm done with the Mormon Church. 1510 01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:14,800 Speaker 2: It's not like she can say and the church has 1511 01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:18,240 Speaker 2: been paying me this much for this long to create 1512 01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,000 Speaker 2: this content. It creates this middleman. 1513 01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:24,080 Speaker 9: The church had a ton of success from Donnie and 1514 01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:27,360 Speaker 9: Marie Osmond because they're Mormon. They're more you know, the 1515 01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:30,720 Speaker 9: raised Mormon, still Mormon to this day, and they were, 1516 01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:34,439 Speaker 9: you know, phenomenal brand ambassadors for the church throughout their 1517 01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:38,720 Speaker 9: kind of heyday. Gladys Knight is also Mormon, and she 1518 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:42,200 Speaker 9: did a concert at our ward in Kentucky at our 1519 01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:45,760 Speaker 9: big congregation, and she's another example of someone who kind 1520 01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:47,439 Speaker 9: of became a bit of a brand ambassador. You know, 1521 01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:51,240 Speaker 9: she's doing concerts, and I think pre internet and before 1522 01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:57,000 Speaker 9: gay issues, the awareness around LGBTQ issues, those people did 1523 01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,559 Speaker 9: really well. And typically it seems like they mostly stayed 1524 01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:01,599 Speaker 9: in the church, and so the church had a lot 1525 01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:05,400 Speaker 9: of success with these famous people being brand ambassadors for them, 1526 01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,679 Speaker 9: whereas now they've had it I think in more recent 1527 01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:11,680 Speaker 9: years backfire more often than they've had it work, like 1528 01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:16,160 Speaker 9: with David Archiletta. So, David Archiletta was very well known 1529 01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,639 Speaker 9: within the church. He also gave concerts for the church. 1530 01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:22,759 Speaker 9: He served a Mormon mission. You can find a picture 1531 01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,080 Speaker 9: of him and the Mormon Chapter Nacle choir where they 1532 01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:29,120 Speaker 9: did his slow zoom on him. And he was another 1533 01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:32,599 Speaker 9: poster child and another famous person. And he's the sweetest 1534 01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:34,479 Speaker 9: you know, if you've ever heard him in interviews, he's 1535 01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:37,400 Speaker 9: so sweet. He's like he just has the kindest presence. 1536 01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,479 Speaker 9: And so I think he was kind of the perfect 1537 01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:43,280 Speaker 9: example of a great Mormon and a great ambassador. And 1538 01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,160 Speaker 9: then in like a few years ago he came out 1539 01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,080 Speaker 9: as gay. He also kind of simultaneously came outs leaving 1540 01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:52,320 Speaker 9: the church and now has written a song about you know, 1541 01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,000 Speaker 9: I'd rather go to health and not love the people 1542 01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:57,559 Speaker 9: who I love, And in many ways has kind of 1543 01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:01,519 Speaker 9: been a reverse of all of the kind of quote 1544 01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:03,200 Speaker 9: good he would have done for the image of the 1545 01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:08,120 Speaker 9: Mormon Church. Now he's just basically a breathing example of 1546 01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:11,719 Speaker 9: the church's bigotry towards gay people because the church really 1547 01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,840 Speaker 9: tried to up their proximity to his image from a 1548 01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:18,360 Speaker 9: pr perspective, really hurt them now that they are no 1549 01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:21,519 Speaker 9: longer able to you know, now they've been damaged by 1550 01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:24,200 Speaker 9: his coming out against them and saying, hey, this church 1551 01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:27,240 Speaker 9: is homophobic. So I think that that's another reason they 1552 01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:31,120 Speaker 9: don't want to maybe formally approach someone like a ballerina 1553 01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,800 Speaker 9: farm or any of these chadwife creators, because they know 1554 01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:38,120 Speaker 9: it will backfire against them. But they also know that 1555 01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:40,840 Speaker 9: these women are making the church look very good and 1556 01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:44,439 Speaker 9: very beautiful and traditional and feminine, and so I think 1557 01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,599 Speaker 9: this advertising revenue is kind of a way for them 1558 01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:51,519 Speaker 9: to support the blogsphere of the early two thousands through 1559 01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:56,360 Speaker 9: the you know, Instagrammers and YouTubers of today by giving 1560 01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:57,280 Speaker 9: them ad revenue. 1561 01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:14,400 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more with Alyssa Grenf. Well, 1562 01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,439 Speaker 2: welcome back to sixteenth minute, and now we continue our 1563 01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:19,200 Speaker 2: conversation with Alyssa Grenfell. 1564 01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,479 Speaker 9: You know, when you're a YouTuber or when you get 1565 01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:25,719 Speaker 9: ad revenue from any social media platform, it just tells 1566 01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:29,919 Speaker 9: you the amount and it tells you basically your cost perview, 1567 01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,400 Speaker 9: and that's it. It just says advertisers were willing to pay, 1568 01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:36,000 Speaker 9: and it's like a black box. They're not telling you, 1569 01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,080 Speaker 9: like which this percentage came from this organization, This percentage 1570 01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,200 Speaker 9: came from this organization. So it's like a black box 1571 01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:44,880 Speaker 9: in that you can't you don't even know. So the 1572 01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,120 Speaker 9: women can just make their content and look up in 1573 01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:48,800 Speaker 9: the morning and be like, look, babe, like look at 1574 01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,920 Speaker 9: this money I made. I'll make more content tomorrow. I'm 1575 01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:55,479 Speaker 9: going to tell my friends. They won't necessarily see through 1576 01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:58,000 Speaker 9: kind of read the tea leaves of why am I 1577 01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:00,400 Speaker 9: making this much? I don't know if any of them 1578 01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:03,640 Speaker 9: are doing that, and maybe they are, and I'm just 1579 01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:05,720 Speaker 9: kind of one of the first they've talked about it. 1580 01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:09,679 Speaker 2: There's no one answer that's going to completely unlock why 1581 01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:12,000 Speaker 2: are there so many successful trad wife accounts at this 1582 01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:16,360 Speaker 2: specific moment. That answer ranges you know, far beyond Mormonism, 1583 01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:18,800 Speaker 2: but I think your content has just helped me have 1584 01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:23,000 Speaker 2: a better sense of not just you and the culture 1585 01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:25,600 Speaker 2: that you had to leave behind, but also who is 1586 01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:29,160 Speaker 2: shaping the Internet. And it seems like the Mormon Church 1587 01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:31,760 Speaker 2: has no small part in doing that. 1588 01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:34,200 Speaker 9: And it's so funny because when you say it like that, 1589 01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:37,600 Speaker 9: it sounds so kind of conspiratorial. It sounds, you know, 1590 01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:40,880 Speaker 9: the Mormons, They're controlling the Internet. But it is funny 1591 01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:44,519 Speaker 9: because it I think to some extent it's true. I mean, 1592 01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:47,360 Speaker 9: not that they are literally holding the mouse and clicking 1593 01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:51,479 Speaker 9: the clicks, but sure in that they are exercising I 1594 01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:55,400 Speaker 9: think a pretty broad ad spend the way that they 1595 01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:59,360 Speaker 9: are actively petitioning members to go on and share the gospel, 1596 01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,880 Speaker 9: share talks, share resources about the church, and so I 1597 01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:06,120 Speaker 9: think that they do have like a fairly coordinated pr 1598 01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:10,320 Speaker 9: effort for the Internet specifically. Even one thing I didn't 1599 01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:13,040 Speaker 9: mention in that video is they have all these people 1600 01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:15,160 Speaker 9: who are hired to do SEO. And if you google 1601 01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:19,360 Speaker 9: something like Bible, the Mormon Church has, like their free 1602 01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:22,200 Speaker 9: Bible is one of the first organic things you see 1603 01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:25,280 Speaker 9: on Google. Is introduced about today, say it's same with 1604 01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:28,840 Speaker 9: I think Jesus Christ, same with New Testament, you know, 1605 01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:31,519 Speaker 9: all of these terms that are kind of general Christian terms. 1606 01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:35,599 Speaker 9: The Mormon Church has one of the top organic rankings 1607 01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:39,240 Speaker 9: for those searches, which is very purposeful and specific, you know, 1608 01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:42,200 Speaker 9: and that their attempt to kind of say, hey, if 1609 01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:44,639 Speaker 9: someone wants a Bible, we want to be the ones 1610 01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:47,160 Speaker 9: giving it to them. So I think that they do. 1611 01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:50,880 Speaker 9: You know, it's not just conspiratorial. They have what I 1612 01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:55,040 Speaker 9: view to be like a very specific, targeted plan for 1613 01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:58,400 Speaker 9: how to get people on the Internet interested in Mormonism, 1614 01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:02,080 Speaker 9: and it's multifaceted, and have whole departments hired for this 1615 01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:02,760 Speaker 9: kind of thing. 1616 01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,800 Speaker 2: It just seems like the Mormon Church has adapted to 1617 01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:08,920 Speaker 2: the Internet age unusually well. 1618 01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,440 Speaker 9: I think they definitely viewed it as a great opportunity, 1619 01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:14,800 Speaker 9: and I think they've also viewed it. 1620 01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:15,040 Speaker 4: You know. 1621 01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:17,240 Speaker 9: People will also talk about how the Mormon Church will 1622 01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:20,479 Speaker 9: kind of spam the front page of Google so that 1623 01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:25,360 Speaker 9: ex Mormon stuff gets further and further down, so that, 1624 01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,160 Speaker 9: you know, instead of just having one article on a subject, 1625 01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:30,400 Speaker 9: they'll have like ten articles on a subject, and they'll 1626 01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:32,519 Speaker 9: try to get them all to rank so that the 1627 01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:37,160 Speaker 9: whole front page of Google is just faithful responses to 1628 01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:42,240 Speaker 9: questions about the origins of the church. They even put 1629 01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:44,600 Speaker 9: out all these essays that are about the history of 1630 01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:48,040 Speaker 9: the church so that they can kind of counter the 1631 01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:49,560 Speaker 9: anti Mormon literature. 1632 01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:52,560 Speaker 2: Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like 1633 01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:54,520 Speaker 2: is relevant to this discussion? 1634 01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:58,960 Speaker 9: Sometimes I struggle with, you know, when I talk about 1635 01:33:59,080 --> 01:34:02,439 Speaker 9: tradwife things, I feel like people really want kind of 1636 01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:06,519 Speaker 9: a silver bullet answer. And I also think that I 1637 01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,960 Speaker 9: struggle sometimes with it's not a demonization of something like 1638 01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:14,040 Speaker 9: a tradwife, but it's maybe the critique because I often 1639 01:34:14,080 --> 01:34:18,479 Speaker 9: feel like tradwives didn't invent motherhood. Tradwives didn't invent being 1640 01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:22,040 Speaker 9: a wife, or like being in a loving relationship in partnership, 1641 01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:26,160 Speaker 9: And so sometimes have a I struggle with the nuance 1642 01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:31,559 Speaker 9: of critiquing something that is genuinely human and genuinely like 1643 01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:34,960 Speaker 9: I think, demonizing motherhood is not something we want to do, 1644 01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:38,240 Speaker 9: Demonizing being a loving partner is not something we want 1645 01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:41,800 Speaker 9: to do. But we want to critique the approach that 1646 01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:45,160 Speaker 9: these accounts are kind of sharing. And so in the 1647 01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:49,000 Speaker 9: critique sometimes there's a demonization that I think is kind 1648 01:34:49,000 --> 01:34:52,120 Speaker 9: of dangerous and not good for families or children specifically. 1649 01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:56,479 Speaker 9: So I think just a final infusion of nuance is 1650 01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:58,800 Speaker 9: what I is. The final thing I'd want to leave 1651 01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:02,479 Speaker 9: is just that it It's not something that's quite as 1652 01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:06,200 Speaker 9: straightforward as saying Mormon women like to journal. It's very complicated. 1653 01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:09,120 Speaker 9: It's about the Internet, but it's also about conservatism, and 1654 01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,599 Speaker 9: it's about roversus weighed, and it's about all of these 1655 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:14,200 Speaker 9: different cultural forces. 1656 01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:17,519 Speaker 2: People should be allowed to live their lives comfortably however 1657 01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:20,720 Speaker 2: they choose to. And so it's just like, let's not 1658 01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,920 Speaker 2: go after a specific woman, Let's go after maybe the 1659 01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:26,040 Speaker 2: system that you can trace it back up to, which 1660 01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:29,000 Speaker 2: seems like a lot of what your work is trying 1661 01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:32,479 Speaker 2: to do is interrogate the system that creates and not 1662 01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:35,040 Speaker 2: you bully the byproducts of the system. 1663 01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:38,160 Speaker 9: That's kind of why I always say I'm anti Mormonism, 1664 01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:41,280 Speaker 9: but I'm not anti Mormon, because I think people can 1665 01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:44,040 Speaker 9: still be criticized, obviously, but I think that in a 1666 01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:47,640 Speaker 9: more broad sense, the systems and the organizations and the 1667 01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:52,679 Speaker 9: dogmas are what are forming human behavior. And so instead 1668 01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:55,320 Speaker 9: of saying this one person sucks because of this X 1669 01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:59,719 Speaker 9: y Z, it's better and more helpful. I think more informative, 1670 01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:03,559 Speaker 9: more educational to say this is the system that made 1671 01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:05,519 Speaker 9: this phenomenon exist to begin with. 1672 01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:09,200 Speaker 2: Thanks so much again to Alyssa for her time and patience. 1673 01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:12,080 Speaker 2: I really recommend her YouTube channel if you have any 1674 01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,600 Speaker 2: further questions about what it's like to grow up in 1675 01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,760 Speaker 2: the Mormon faith, what it's like to decondition oneself from 1676 01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:21,320 Speaker 2: a cult like upbringing, as well as some interesting interviews 1677 01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:24,040 Speaker 2: with fellow ex Mormons. You can also check out her 1678 01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:27,560 Speaker 2: book at the link in the description. So listeners to conclude, 1679 01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:30,840 Speaker 2: why are there so many successful Mormon wives in the 1680 01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:36,320 Speaker 2: influencing space today? The answer is money. Okay, see you 1681 01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:40,200 Speaker 2: next week. In all seriousness, thank you so much again 1682 01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:42,840 Speaker 2: for listening. Please remember to subscribe to the show. If 1683 01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:45,400 Speaker 2: you like it, leave a friendly review, tell your friends. 1684 01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:47,280 Speaker 2: It all helps. I had a lot of fun making 1685 01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:49,920 Speaker 2: this episode. I learned a lot and it was really hard. 1686 01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:51,960 Speaker 2: So please let me know your thoughts and for your 1687 01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:54,639 Speaker 2: moment of fun or I guess more of a moment 1688 01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:58,160 Speaker 2: of reflection. This week, here is former American Idol contestant 1689 01:36:58,240 --> 01:37:01,360 Speaker 2: David Argiletta talking about what he left the Mormon Church. 1690 01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:02,679 Speaker 3: See you next week. 1691 01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:05,280 Speaker 11: One day, I was just praying. I got on my 1692 01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:07,600 Speaker 11: knees and I said, God, if you're really there, and 1693 01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:09,759 Speaker 11: if you really have a purpose for me, just please 1694 01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:13,200 Speaker 11: take this from me. Please change because I don't want 1695 01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:15,360 Speaker 11: to be a wish and I don't want to be 1696 01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 11: like this, and I don't know. 1697 01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:17,240 Speaker 10: Why I am. 1698 01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:22,040 Speaker 11: And I just basically heard what I understood is what 1699 01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:26,040 Speaker 11: was always God told me, David, you need to stop 1700 01:37:26,080 --> 01:37:30,479 Speaker 11: asking me this. You're asking me the wrong thing because 1701 01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:32,760 Speaker 11: I don't intend to change you. You've been spending over 1702 01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:35,040 Speaker 11: half of your life now praying about this, asking me 1703 01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:39,000 Speaker 11: to change something that I don't intend to change. 1704 01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,920 Speaker 2: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and 1705 01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:48,640 Speaker 2: iHeart Bringim. It is written, posted and produced by me 1706 01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,919 Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichtman and Robert Evans, 1707 01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:56,360 Speaker 2: You amazin Ian Johnson. It is our supervising producer and 1708 01:37:56,600 --> 01:38:01,320 Speaker 2: our editor. Our theme song is by Sad thirty and Pet. 1709 01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:04,879 Speaker 2: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson, my cat's fleeing Casper, 1710 01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:09,480 Speaker 2: and my pet rock Bert, who will outlive us all. Bye.