WEBVTT - Do aliens exist? 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.479 I am Morgan and the creator of PhD Comics. And 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.920 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and definitely not an 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.960 artificial intelligence. And welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.720 Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio. Listeners 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.520 of the podcast will though that I am particularly fascinated 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.840 by aliens and the search for alien intelligence, because I 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.680 hope that those aliens will one day reveal the future 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.919 and secrets of physics to us. But I'm also equally 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.400 fascinated in the search for intelligence here on Earth. And 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.720 I don't mean among the political class, but I mean 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.800 in our computers, whether our computers can be intelligent, whether 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.400 they will be intelligent, maybe they will discover secrets of 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.239 physics and unraveled them for us. Well, today we have 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.360 an amazing combination of those two ideas wrapped up together 0:00:53.560 --> 0:01:13.399 in one podcast. Yeah, we are once again taking questions 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.440 from some friends of ours, so to be on the podcast, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.160 we have the host of a popular podcast here to 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.240 ask us questions. So to be on the program, we 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:31.720 have the host of the podcast Sleepwalkers with us here today, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:36.960 So Kara Price and Oz Walshing. Hey, guys, hi, Hi, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.280 thanks for coming on, thanks for having us. We're not 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.160 just listeners, but we're we're super listeners and big fans 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.119 and hoping that you can explain the universe to us today, 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.440 not the whole universe, just some sounds like a great 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.520 idea of for podcast. Yeah, So Kara and Oz are 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:56.640 produced and host the podcast Sleepwalkers, which is also by 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.240 Our Heart Radio, and which is about everything you need 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.160 to know about artificial intelligence, right guys, hopefully it is everything, 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.559 but yeah, the way it's affecting people's lives in different areas. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.280 And I was interested, you know, to hear Daniel that 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.400 you use machine learning in your work, because we're focusing 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.639 more and more on how AI can help us understand 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.440 complex systems, so not just simple cause and effect, but 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:26.480 you know, multifarious interacting causes which produce hard to explain effects. 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.440 So we were looking today at death actually, and how 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.359 death involves the collapse of all these different systems, and 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.360 the collapse of one system might affect another system, and 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.200 how hard it is for doctors to predict time of 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.800 death because it's hard for people to conceive of the 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.800 interaction between different types of systems and different types of 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.639 data points. But that's something that computers are very good at. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.840 That's right. One of the things we do is that 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.240 we take these big, complex pictures of particle collisions and 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.800 then we have to try to unravel and we have 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.200 to try to wonder what's going on in the data. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.520 Is that we use machines, we computer intelligence to do 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.520 that sometimes, but we also want to interpret it. I 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.799 was listening to your podcast last week about making sure 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.080 these things makes sense and how do we understand the 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.000 decisions these computers have made. And that's the same problem 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:17.080 we have UM here in particle physics, because nobody wants 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.320 to publish a paper that says, um, the computer found 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.320 a particle in the data. We can't see it, but 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.400 trust us it's there. Very interesting. Yeah, we were talking 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.119 to UM author Provoca, who ran DAPPA for a few 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.160 years until Seen, and she was telling us that this 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.000 concept of explainable AI is a big priority at Dopper 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.120 right now. So cool to hear you're working on. Start 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:40.800 us off. Maybe if you can tell us a little 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.840 bit about yourselves and a little bit about the podcast 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.320 and how we can find it. I mean, you said, 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.720 my name is Karat Price. I'm the co host of Sleepwalkers, 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.520 and my background is well in content production, but that's 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.200 not fun for a podcast. But I did have a 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.320 show on hof Post called Talk Nerdy to Me. That 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.360 was a video show where we asked other big questions 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.760 not only pertaining to the universe, but sometimes pertaining to 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.600 the universe. So I do have a general understanding of 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.240 some of the things that you guys talked about on 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:12.920 your show, and I've gotten to speak to some really 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.159 interesting folks at NASA, and I've gotten to it was 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.960 during the time of you know, when they first detected 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.839 gravitational waves, and so we did a lot of research 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:27.320 around that, and I became particularly interested in gravitational waves 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.080 from that um for the show. And also I grew 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.440 up with a father who was obsessed with both the 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.359 universe and extrachestrial life and actually edited a book called 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.320 the Universe. And he was an adult man, so he 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.080 could not go to space camp, but sent me to 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.400 space Camp when I was ten years old. I think 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.200 I went there before I went to sleepaway Camp. So 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.920 I've always had a solar system consciousness, I think more 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.920 so than your average middle schooler that has to learn 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.440 about it in school. At least I sort of grew 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.000 up in the shadow of the nineteen sixties and how 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.760 being a parent that really was obsessed obsessed with the 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.400 fact that we had landed on the Moon, and obsessed 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.920 with astronauts and going to space, and also understanding sort 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.719 of is there life in the cosmos? So from a 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.320 personal standpoint, these are the things that I think about 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.760 kind of on a daily basis. So being on your 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.560 show is quite interesting. And and then also you know 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.560 this idea of will we ever find life on Mars 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.120 or on other earthlike plants where they can actually survive, 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.839 or will they find us? Or have they or have 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.000 they found this green and us tell us a little 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.360 bit about you. Yeah, I'm afraid I don't have nearly 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:43.000 quite such a romantic origin story as Kara. But I'm 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.800 interested in origin stories, origins of the universe, origins of 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:52.719 computer science, origins of artificial intelligence. And I was a 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.760 huge fan of Kara's work on Talk Nettie to Me, 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.640 so um, when I started thinking about Sleepwalkers as a show, 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.960 you know, she was the first person and I reached 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:02.960 out to for advice on how to build it. And 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.960 then I got very lucky that she didn't just want 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:06.279 to give me advice on how to build it, but 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:08.680 also join the show. So really, you know, it's a 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:13.240 show which is about technology and about artificial intelligence, um, 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.800 but it uses those topics as a way in to 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.120 have big conversations about our culture and our society and 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.760 what makes us human more are the limits of our humanity? 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.719 And so you know, as the series is progressed, we've 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.000 gone from looking at how algorithms are able to understand 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.520 us and know us in some sense better than ourselves 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.800 and thus influence us, whether that's to buy or to vote, 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.320 or to appear at protests or to keep swiping on 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.159 dating apps, And then as a series is progressed, we've 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.640 looked at you know, medical applications. As Karrol was mentioning, um, 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.800 what what happens in a world when we can use 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.360 AI to interpret our biological signals, a mess of our 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.520 biological signals to tell us when we might die, or 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.279 the mess of our genome to tell us what kind 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.839 of illnesses we may be prone to, how tall our 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.359 children maybe and what color their eyes will be and 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.960 whether we want to intervene in that. And our final 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.480 episode of the series of season one is coming out 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.800 in two weeks, which features an interview with Yuval Noah Harari, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.920 who wrote Sapiens and Homodaeus, really asking the question what 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.120 does all of this new technology mean for our status 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.840 as humans? Are we on the verge of speciating becoming 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.560 a new species of people who are technologically enabled? And 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.200 obviously there's a bunch of people looming in the background 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.720 like Elon Musk who kind of constantly ringing the bell 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.760 for for terror, and he's somebody who's worked on transhumanism 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.520 in the form of neuralink. Also somebody who's interested in 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.600 the potential for us living in a simulation. Which is 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.600 an episode of your show I really enjoyed. But but 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.880 we try and take a more um, you know, more 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.480 neutral line looking some of the optimistic things that this 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.280 new technology will allow for us and for our species 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.840 to enjoy and perhaps even have more time to play 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.840 or listen to podcasts podcasts. Well, hopefully I will make 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:04.160 our next podcast, so we would have to ye from 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.400 our voice hopefully cool. Well, if you are interested in 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.600 artificial intelligence, which I think everyone should be at this point, 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.960 please go check out their podcast. But today we'll be 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.480 answering questions from Oz and Cara related to the universe 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:25.800 and aliens and astrology and fate, and so let's jump 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.200 into it. Well, I think I speak for all women. No, 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.199 I'm joking. Um, I think astrology is becoming a multibillion 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:39.160 dollar industry with absolutely no uh grounded facts. And so 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.200 I'm always interested in talking about astrology, but I don't 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.439 really know so much about how it relates to astronomy, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.920 even though I probably should. And so I figured i'd 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.720 ask a question about that and maybe you guys could 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.280 give me a decent answer. So I can, you know, 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.760 school my friends. So the question is, what does astronomy 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.240 have to do with astrology? Right besides the word stro 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.000 in front of it, I think I think you just 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.560 answered the question. Actually, I think those letters are about 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.400 all they have in common. I mean, astrology is like, 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.840 you know, looking at the stars and identifying constellations and 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.640 imagining somehow that the constellations that were in the sky 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.760 when you were born might dictate who you are and 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.200 the events that happened to you in your life. You know, 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:27.760 it's really mysticism, whereas astronomy that's like a scientific study 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.079 of the universe. Let's look out into space and try 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.760 to figure out what's out there and how does it work? 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.160 And can we build a model that actually makes sense? 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.880 And so there's really almost no overlap at all. UM 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:44.400 overlap might be that astrology relates to constellations, and constellations 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.240 are kind of weirdly a lot of people's introduction to astronomy. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.000 You know, people look up at the stars and they 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.040 see these constellations and that's fun. That sort of draws 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.480 them into the mystery and the majesty of the night sky. Now, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:58.960 is it possible that, um, the way in which we 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.920 look at a strong g today, future generations will look 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.240 at what we think of as astronomy. In other words, 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:07.880 would it be a system for understanding the world which 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:13.960 future scientific revelations proofs or demonstrates was actually a flawid understanding. 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.400 I'm sure that the future generations will look back at 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.800 our astronomy and they will snicker at our misconceptions. Right, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.839 they will think, oh, my gosh, they thought that the 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.080 universe was like this. It turns out it's like that. 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.880 But that's you know, that's the part of the process 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.520 of science is corrections, and there's nothing to be ashamed 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.520 of in a modern day astronomy. We've made dramatic understandings, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.480 and anything that we misunderstand, we're happy to have a 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.240 new understanding. Astrology is a little bit different, you know, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.760 it's a it's not a scientific understanding. It hasn't come 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.240 to be out of a method which has been built 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.319 to separate fact from fiction. It is really just pure fiction. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.160 When I think about astrology, astrology is to astronomy sort 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.120 of like what weather gods are or rain dances are 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.760 to meteorology, you know, like which is a much more 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.839 precise science, right, yeah, exactly. You know. The thing that 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.800 amazes me is that these things are so often linked 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.440 because they really have almost nothing in common. And I 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.240 go to planet I take my kids to planetariums, for example, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.800 and very often they start off a planetarium show with 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.520 the constellations. They're like, this is this constellation, this is 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.360 that constellation. And I'm thinking, this is supposed to be 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.080 like an extronomical educational experience, supposed to be learning about 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.560 the universe. But constellations have no insight into the universe 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.920 at all. They're just they're an artifact of where we 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.200 happen to be in space. You know, you look at 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.640 the stars in a particular constellation, they look close together 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:39.520 because of where we are, but you know, some of 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.440 them are zillions of light years apart. You look at 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.080 them from another perspective, there's no constellation there at all. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.120 So it always, it always frustrates me that essentially they 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.880 begin with astrology, with with the zodiac signs, with basically 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.160 Bronze age myths, you know, as an entrance to astronomy. 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.240 That always frustrates me. So the stars don't ever align 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:02.200 really for anybody. I mean, some people have charmed lives, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.920 but I don't think it's because of the stars. Is 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.040 it possible? And I've always wondered, you know, people feel 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.760 the moon for example, Like I've been with people who 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.439 want it's a full moon. They feel some kind of 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.720 connection to the moon, or they feel some sense of 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.840 excitemental wildness. Um, is that pure projection? Is there is 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.400 there any possibility that sort of events or planets moving 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.720 throughout Galic se can on a particle level affect us 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.959 or connect with us? Well, I don't know, your friends, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.880 are they sort of they get sort of hairy and 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.120 a little more toothy when the moon comes out like 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:39.080 that all the time, when they sounds fascinating. Um, I 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.640 think it's it's not a stretch actually said that the 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.120 moon affects people, right, because the Moon is pretty close, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.800 and it certainly has a physical effect on the Earth 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.120 that causes the tides. It affects the things on the planet, 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.439 that's for sure. But I suspect that that's a lot 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.800 a lot of that is psychostomatic. That you know, seeing 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.560 the moon affects the way people feel. You have to 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.760 do some sort of blind study where people couldn't see 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.680 the moon and just feel it. But the other planets 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.719 and stars, you know, we were It's funny. We're talking 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.360 about this just recently on the podcast. It is true 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.640 that you feel the effects of other atoms in the universe. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.360 In fact, every other atom in the universe. There's, for example, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.080 an electromagnetic field that connects you the protons and electrons 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.320 in your body with the electrons everywhere. But those things 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.520 are negligible because the power of those things drops as 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.360 the distance squared, So the electrons and alpha centauri have 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.280 no measurable effect on you and the out and the 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.920 you know where that we know of where Jupiter is, 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.680 where Saturn is, doesn't affect whether or not you should 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.760 like say yes to a date or invest in SpaceX right, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:47.040 that's Alpha Centauri is acting super crazy to Well, to 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.079 be fair, Dannie, you shouldn't base all decisions on astrology 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:55.240 or astronomy either one. That's right. Well, the stock market 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.840 is just a random chance anyway, so you know, just 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:04.480 roll a dime and make your investments as advice and mercury. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:11.840 And they started with constellations because it sort of gives 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.800 you a little bit of context about what we humans 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.840 seeing this guy and what we are yearning to understand 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.280 how this guy is related to our lives. Right, I 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.160 think it's really interesting, so I can I can imagine Daniel, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:28.960 it must be frustrating on the one hand to have 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:34.400 the specter of astrology haunting astronomy. On the other hand, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.120 the fact that people have a baseline interest in the 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.480 stars maybe is you know, net positive. I think so. Yeah. 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.400 I just wish it wasn't diverted into astrology. You know. 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.640 It's like if somebody asks, hey, tell us about you know, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.560 the particles in the universe and what everything is made 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.680 out of. You don't start off with, well, there's fire, air, wind, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:55.920 and earth, you know whatever, like the four elements. The 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.120 Greeks thought you begin with things we actually know. You 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.560 begin with you true facts about the universe. Uh. I 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.640 think I think there's so much amazing stuff in astronomy 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.000 that you don't have to begin with astrology to get 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.160 people excited, just while them with reality. The universe is 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.600 a crazy, amazing place and there's lots of cool stuff 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.320 out there. You know, when people refer to a whole 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.560 you know, the universe telling me to quit my job, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.200 or it's just the universe doesn't think that I know 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.600 that I should be with this guy or this girl whatever. Um, 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.280 you know, like the universe has a personality and opinions 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.680 about your dating life, and you would disagree as a 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.720 degree in psychotherapy, right exactly what. It's the same we 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.160 see in coverage of AI as people like to anthropy, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:44.440 anthropomorphize UM machines and algorithm algorithms, the algorithm, the algorithm algorithm, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.320 you know, and and it's kind of a bit of 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.320 a cop out, isn't it to thinking about how we 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.400 are responsible for our outcomes. Yeah, I think there's something 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.840 really fascinating there. Actually, it says something really interesting about 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.920 human intelligence and consciousness. Um. You know here, I'm very 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.840 far from my area of expertise, But I think that 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:06.520 that people are really good at identifying intelligence outside of themselves. Right. 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.960 It's certainly a survival tactic to say, like, oh, this 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.760 creature here seems to be aware and intelligent and how 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.320 and be an agent and uh. And so I think 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.520 that's how people identify, you know, will in other beings. 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.920 And it's very natural to extend that to the universe, 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.360 to say, like, you know, it seems like there's some 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.080 organizing intelligence that's acting in this way to bring storms 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.680 or to star wars or whatever. And I wonder how 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.640 easily people will apply that to AI. You know, when 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.160 we have a I that is that can mimic human 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.800 human intelligence that really is interchangeable with a human being, 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.240 will people be tempted to give them human rights? You know, 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.480 because they appear to suffer, Do they really suffer? You know, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.040 these are really fascinating questions that I think you guys 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.840 probably should answer in your podcast. Well, if you watch, 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.160 I mean, if you watch, like there's Boston there's videos 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.280 on the Boston Dynamics YouTube right of or there's there's 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.000 videos where you watch robots either getting beat up or 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.359 watch robots, you know, dog fight, breaking into dog, robot 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.800 fights um or dogs pulling a truck? Am I supposed 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:09.840 to feel bad for this robot dog that has to 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.240 pull a truck as opposed to what dogs should be doing, 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.240 which is playing and using their minds and building tech companies? So, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:21.320 you know, I think we don't exactly. Yeah, I think 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.360 these questions are going to come up. I think they're 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.679 already coming up, you know, just in terms of who 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:30.600 are we who are we blaming? When when algorithms go wrong? 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.240 Can you even blame an algorithm? Yeah? I guess the 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.480 real question mark, I think obviously, you know, all goes 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.159 back to you. That's right. He didn't know what he 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.040 was making. And when the dog aies take over, we'll 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.159 have to ask them if they're interested in astrology, if 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.640 they just skip over and go straight to astronomy. Let's 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:57.480 let's the dog constellation. What's the fight? I think Orion 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.320 has a dog, doesn't the Ryan of a dog? There 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.439 you go? Maybe the hunter? Yeah, But it seems like 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.800 you're saying the answer is that astronomy is a science. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.360 It's based on facts and observations and data, But astrology 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:15.560 is really just sort of people making stuff up. Astrology 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.080 is spiritual mysticism, and you know, some people find it helpful, 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.080 but it's definitely not science. In this political moment, you know, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.639 with you know, you have the ministers in Britain saying, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.119 you know, we're past the age of experts, and you 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.560 have a lot of conversation about fake news in the US. 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.240 And that's something we've looked at on our podcast is 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:40.160 deep fakes and how manufactured media can you know, disturb 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.680 the notion that truth exists anywhere, and that's obviously having 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.840 big implications for our politics. Is that how much of 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.800 a concern is that in the world of science that 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.399 you know, in the end, somebody might turn around and say, well, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.359 I choose my facts and in my universe astrology is 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.760 just as vad as astronomy. Well, I think that the 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:59.679 sort of two answers, they're one. Um. I think the 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.000 general public has already lost a lot of faith in 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.520 science as an institution, not because science has misbehaved, but 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.240 because our political leaders have begun dismissing it and then 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.240 pushing it away from having a role at the table. 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.240 The facts of reality are not always convenient. Um. But 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.199 I think there's another angle to that, which is fakes. 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.280 In science and actually there you know, there are scientists 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.600 who fabricate data and produce papers, um with with images 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:28.919 that are not actually taken from their experiments. But the 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.439 fascinating thing is that they're very easy to detect. I mean, 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.560 they just take an image that's in another figure in 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.840 the same paper and like inverted or flip it or whatever. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.640 So there might be a day when scientists use sophisticated 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.600 AI to generate false data for their papers, but that 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:45.520 day is not yet here. Well, and you also just 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.439 have the larger problem of misinformation in the case of 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.880 you know, the flat earther movement. I still can't tell 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:52.800 if the flat Earther movement is a bunch of trolls 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.040 of people really believe that, you know, like, does anybody 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.760 actually seriously believe that? I mean, I think it's a 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.920 crazy option of YouTube rad goals. I don't think there's 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.439 going to be much progress made in the scientific establishment. 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:08.440 It's an interesting example of how the algorithm has impacted 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.760 people's perception of reality and science, because those were most 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.600 people who have been radicalized in that way. Um, we're 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.600 radicalized on YouTube by being suggested other videos like videos, Well, 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:22.359 folks just need to listen to our show and they'll 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.280 understand everything exactly. Well. The thing about that idea of 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.440 fake sciences that do you think, Daniel, that we can 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:34.080 always just verify these things. You know, like if somebody says, hey, 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.760 I can clone human beings but nobody else can do it, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.880 then you know that cast some shadow on their claim, right. Yeah, 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.400 that's the nice thing about sciences. There's always somebody else 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.600 out there who wants to prove you wrong, and so 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:49.000 fake results don't last very long. Um. We talked about 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.600 that on a podcast recently about cold fusion, how folks 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.959 claim to have invented fusion that you could do at 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.119 room temperature, but then within months lots and lots and 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.280 lots of groups tried to reproduce it and couldn't and 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.000 so it went from a media sensation to you know, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.560 um to fringe ridiculousness in just a few months. And 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.439 so I think that's one of the real strengths of 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.879 sciences that it has this self correction because we can 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.280 always refer to the experiments because in the end, it's 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.359 grounded in truth and facts. That's not always the case 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.560 about you know, mainstream discussions in the news media. So 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.480 you have two other questions, and these are pretty interesting 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.080 about life and other planets, and also about those UFO 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.359 sightings by the Navy. Yes, and so we'll get into those, 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:45.600 but first let's take a quick break. All right, We're 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.040 here with carea Price and ask wall Shit, the host 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.000 of the podcast sleep Walkers, which is about artificial intelligence 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.800 and society and culture. And today we're taking questions from them, 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.960 two experts and AI asking one expert about the universe 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.639 in one cartoon is deep Questions about the universe. And 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:06.600 so Karrol, what's here a second question? Well, it really 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:08.320 freaks me out to think that there could be a 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.600 bunch of life like creatures living on a planet that 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.640