1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,880
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

3
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

4
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

5
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

6
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

7
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,360
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

8
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

9
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust me.

10
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:24,919
Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

11
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 3: I've never lived.

12
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 2: To you, If you think that one person has all

13
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 2: the answers, don't.

14
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 3: Welcome to trust me.

15
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,599
Speaker 2: The podcast about colds an extreme belief and manipulation from

16
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 2: two perfectionists who've actually experienced it.

17
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:42,960
Speaker 3: I am Lola.

18
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,840
Speaker 2: Blanc, I am Megan Elizabeth, and today our guests are ourselves.

19
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,440
Speaker 3: Me and the how are ourselves. It's us.

20
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,519
Speaker 2: It's just the two of us. We can make it

21
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,800
Speaker 2: if we try. Today, we wanted to talk about a

22
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 2: topic that is a theme that comes up for me

23
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,320
Speaker 2: a lot. Is it a theme that comes up for

24
00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 2: you a lot?

25
00:00:58,840 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 3: Yes? Okay?

26
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:05,319
Speaker 2: That topic is perfectionism, perfectionism and purity and how these

27
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,080
Speaker 2: qualities within ourselves reflect the standards that cults.

28
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,400
Speaker 3: Have for us as well.

29
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 2: And how society sometimes can get a little culty in

30
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,399
Speaker 2: this same way, and.

31
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 1: Then number one gets stuck, which brings us to our

32
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 1: cultiest thing of the week, which is the restaurant we

33
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:21,319
Speaker 1: just went to.

34
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 2: And what restaurant is that, Megan Goop?

35
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 3: Goop owned by the most perfect of the perfect.

36
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,400
Speaker 2: That is so true, Winneth Perfect Paltrow, Wwinneth perfect. True.

37
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 3: No, it doesn't work. Steve our producer is a plotting.

38
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna say it did work.

39
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, the cultiest thing of the week is Gwyneth Paltrow's

40
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 1: restaurant Goop. Every item has a twenty line description of

41
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 1: why it's the most delicious and best thing you could

42
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: ever put in your body.

43
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 2: Well, I will say that this all this says that

44
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 2: I'm meeting right now is the asi very vegan protein bowl.

45
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 2: But listen, Lola, I'm talking about in the restaurant, the descriptions.

46
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 3: I mean, there was a tea that had a postcard.

47
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 3: There was a tea that had a postcard.

48
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 1: Was a tea that had a postcard that explained what

49
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: it did for you?

50
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 3: Oh, you could send it? Is what it looked, you

51
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,000
Speaker 3: could send it. I think it was a literal postcard.

52
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 2: Like like this tea is so great.

53
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:19,640
Speaker 3: Goop is so great.

54
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,639
Speaker 2: I tell all my friends at bat so everyone else

55
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 2: from Goop right right, right right. You know.

56
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 3: I like Gwyneth Paltrow. Sometimes I really enjoyed that trial.

57
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 3: I love the trial.

58
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: I love that.

59
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 3: I love some of her movies.

60
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 1: Royal Tenenbaumb's is brilliant, her performance wonderful, you know.

61
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 3: But come on.

62
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: The recent thing where she was just like, I eat broth,

63
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,359
Speaker 1: bone broth, and vegetables. She just did a podcast with

64
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 1: somebody recently where she was talking about her health and

65
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 1: she was like, I eat bone broth and I ate vegetables,

66
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: and she literally looks like she's dying. And everyone was like, hey,

67
00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,400
Speaker 1: maybe try some other things. And then she was like,

68
00:02:58,520 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 1: of course I eat other things.

69
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,920
Speaker 3: And everyone's like, do you. And that's not for me

70
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 3: to judge. That's her body. That's fine, but maybe don't.

71
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,079
Speaker 2: Go on you don't use your public platform.

72
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 1: People are vulnerable to things like that. Yes, yes, sometimes

73
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: she's just a little clueless. It seems like she wouldn't be,

74
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,120
Speaker 1: but she is. So whatever, if she wants to be

75
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 1: friends with me, that's cool.

76
00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:24,040
Speaker 3: Reach out.

77
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 1: Definitely willing to help you get a few things through

78
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: your mind because you're very perfectionistic, and it's annoying. Amen,

79
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: thank you, which brings us to us, which brings to us. Yeah,

80
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 1: and our own want to be perfect even though it's

81
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:41,240
Speaker 1: off putting to be perfect.

82
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, I've written about that before.

83
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 2: I always feel like a broken record when I talk

84
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 2: about my OCD. I'm going to talk about it today.

85
00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 3: Which is so hilarious because that's what OCD is.

86
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: But I'm like, no one cares. Everyone cares, but it

87
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 2: is a really like big part of this for me.

88
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,520
Speaker 2: I wrote an essay like, once I felt like I

89
00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 2: had reached a good amount of recovery in my obsession

90
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 2: or whatever about how it was, it all came back

91
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 2: to this feeling like I need to be perfect, and

92
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 2: it fueled this extremely OCD obsessive, like constantly checking if

93
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: I said the right thing, if I sounded smart enough,

94
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 2: if I did the right thing. One of the big

95
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 2: things I talked about in that essay was that like,

96
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 2: I don't even like perfect seeming people. I think they

97
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,880
Speaker 2: seem like robots and completely unrelatable, and I don't want

98
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 2: to talk to them. They don't seem fun, you know. Yeah,

99
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 2: like It's not a quality that I even admire and

100
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,279
Speaker 2: anyone else. So why is it something that I expect

101
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,040
Speaker 2: from myself to such like an extreme degree?

102
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 1: You know, do you think it started with the cult,

103
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 1: with the religious upbringing, or do you think that this

104
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,120
Speaker 1: is something that would have happened to you.

105
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,440
Speaker 2: Regardless, I don't think that for me it started with religion.

106
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 2: But I one hundred thousand percent see how that is

107
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 2: how it starts for a lot of people. There's an

108
00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,160
Speaker 2: entire subsection of OCD. You know, they're like recurring, very

109
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 2: common themes that people's OCD is attached to, and one

110
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 2: of them is scrupulosity OCD, which frequently comes from like

111
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,520
Speaker 2: this need to cleanse yourself of sin.

112
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't have that.

113
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 2: It's I'm surprised I don't have that because Mormonism is

114
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 2: like very you know, sexual sin. People can become very

115
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 2: hyper tuned to like sexual sin. And I might have

116
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,839
Speaker 2: had that when I was younger, but now I think

117
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 2: it's like it has more to do with my identity

118
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,039
Speaker 2: to myself, the way I see myself as someone who's.

119
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,200
Speaker 3: Like just an overachiever.

120
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,839
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, I'm you know, I got the best

121
00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 2: grades in school, And I mean I graduated from home school,

122
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 2: so in fairness, I went to high school publicly for

123
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,159
Speaker 2: some of those years. But it's not like I was

124
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,840
Speaker 2: literally the like valedictorian anywhere, because I was fucking right.

125
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 2: But when I was in school, like I'm in the

126
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 2: ap classes, I'm getting straight a's. It's very important to

127
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,400
Speaker 2: me that everyone loves me. When I'm hanging out with

128
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 2: my comedy friends, it's very important to me to be

129
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,559
Speaker 2: just as funny as them and to do the most

130
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 2: interesting have the most interesting takes, and to output the

131
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 2: most creatively and like to some extent, like yes, I

132
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,919
Speaker 2: like I can achieve some of those things, but the

133
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,400
Speaker 2: expectation and the bar that I set for myself is

134
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 2: so ridiculously high. And that's when that's why, you know,

135
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,640
Speaker 2: when I was in a relationship that made me insecure

136
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 2: about my intellect, for you know, it wasn't his fault,

137
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 2: it was just the combination of us together. But like

138
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 2: that's why that sent me on a path of like

139
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 2: questioning my own brain and my own mind and my

140
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 2: own memory and my own sanity because I was like,

141
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,360
Speaker 2: maybe there's something wrong with my thinking. Maybe my thinking

142
00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 2: isn't the best thinking.

143
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 3: You know.

144
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,719
Speaker 2: It's like I have a little Donald Trump in me.

145
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 2: That's like I'm the best thinker. Yeah, you know, I've

146
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 2: got the best thinking. And then when I don't live

147
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 2: up to that insane standard, I start to get obsessed.

148
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 3: With about it. It seems like a trauma response.

149
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: Like I feel like a lot of people that I know,

150
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 1: whether it's religious trauma, which I really want to do

151
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,840
Speaker 1: a podcast on religious trauma because bitch, I got it,

152
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 1: but it feels like it's a trauma response because a

153
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,360
Speaker 1: lot of people that I know who had trauma as

154
00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: children are very perfectionistic or trauma, you know, as adults.

155
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 1: But it's a safety mechanism to make sure that you're

156
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 1: not in danger.

157
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,320
Speaker 2: To control everything, right, yeah, like, so you don't feel

158
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 2: out of control exactly. If I'm the best or if

159
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 2: I don't make any mistakes, then I can control whatever

160
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,600
Speaker 2: what happens to me if I don't. If I say

161
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 2: all the right things on this podcast and I never

162
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 2: make a mistake, then like the way people receive the

163
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 2: podcast is in my control, which of course it isn't

164
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 2: no matter what.

165
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 1: Right And of course Donald Trump is the most terrified

166
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 1: person on the planet. You have no idea, Like, my

167
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 1: dream is to give him DMT and just watch his

168
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: entire psyche dissolve, and like what would he become?

169
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is under there? I wonder?

170
00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, it seems to be a trauma response. Most

171
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,520
Speaker 1: of us have trauma, and most of us deal with

172
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,119
Speaker 1: never wanting to fuck up. Mine comes in the form

173
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: of like, oh, if I say something wrong, or say

174
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: something like a word incorrectly, or or don't have a

175
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: piece of information, I don't really give a shit. It's

176
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: if I make anyone mad, yes I will. If I

177
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 1: hurt someone's feelings, I'd rather I'd literally rather be dead. Yeah,

178
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 1: So mine comes out in this very puritan like never

179
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 1: offend anyone, never make anyone upset.

180
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, that's really common o CD theme too.

181
00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:37,640
Speaker 2: He's called harm ocd in interesting but that makes total sense.

182
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 2: And even you, hearing you say it out loud, I'm like, oh,

183
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 2: I see that, and you I see that. Like desire

184
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,439
Speaker 2: to just never hurt anyone.

185
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,440
Speaker 1: It's more important to me than succeeding. It's more important

186
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 1: to me than anything, Like I would rather be yeah, invisible,

187
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 1: in nothing than like than visible and make somebody sad. Yeah,

188
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 1: it's so strangely, and sometimes people need to be made sad.

189
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,440
Speaker 3: Honestly, So it's not doing anyone any favors.

190
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 1: And I'm yeah, I'm honest, Like sometimes I don't say

191
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 1: what people want to hear. But it's just this weird

192
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,120
Speaker 1: blank slate that I desire when my head hits the pillow,

193
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 1: that no one is mad at me.

194
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 3: Very strange.

195
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,040
Speaker 2: I mean I do relate to that, Like you know,

196
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 2: I would say historically my obsessions were more around like

197
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 2: being being the best, and now it's sort of changed

198
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 2: and morphed into not making a mistake. And included in

199
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 2: that mistake is like saying something that hurts somebody, or

200
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 2: like doing something that will be that I didn't intend,

201
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,079
Speaker 2: but it results in the harm of someone right or

202
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 2: perceived harm of someone.

203
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 1: Exactly, which makes us just in a phrase response that

204
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 1: isn't helpful or authentic.

205
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 2: So to kind of tie this all back into cults here,

206
00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,400
Speaker 2: Like the reason that this felt like irrelevant top to

207
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 2: me was because if we're looking at Robert Jay Lifton's

208
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 2: a criteria forer thought reform, We've talked about these a lot.

209
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,959
Speaker 2: The third one is demand for purity. I'm just gonna

210
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,319
Speaker 2: use a quote here from him. The philosophical assumption underlying

211
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,960
Speaker 2: this demand is that absolute purity is attainable, and that

212
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 2: anything done to anyone in the name of this purity

213
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 2: is ultimately moral. In actual practice, however, no one is

214
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 2: really expected to achieve such perfection, nor can this paradox

215
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 2: be dismissed as merely a means of establishing a high

216
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,480
Speaker 2: standard to which all can aspire. Thought reform bears witness

217
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,479
Speaker 2: to its more malignant consequences. For by defining and manipulating

218
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 2: the criteria of purity, then by conducting an all out

219
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,440
Speaker 2: war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world

220
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 2: of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos

221
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 2: of continuous reform, a demand that ones strive permanently and

222
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 2: painfully for something which not only does not exist, but

223
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,200
Speaker 2: is in fact alien to the human condition.

224
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: Ooh, no one has hair like yours, so why would

225
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,479
Speaker 1: you settle for mouse produced one size fits all hair care? Personally,

226
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,559
Speaker 1: my hair has no volume and is very fine.

227
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,040
Speaker 2: Making the switch to made to order haircare with PROS,

228
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 2: I can honestly.

229
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 3: Say I am loving my hair.

230
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,520
Speaker 1: PROS makes custom hair care that's effective because the formulas

231
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,439
Speaker 1: are actually made to order for your unique needs using natural,

232
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 1: sustainably sourced ingredients with proven results. Pros customizes every product

233
00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 1: in your routine, from shampoo to supplements.

234
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 2: First, pro starts by asking about your hair goals. Their

235
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,320
Speaker 2: in depth consultation also asks about you as a person.

236
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 2: Prose asks me about my level of exercise, my damage.

237
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 3: The environment that I live in, et cetera.

238
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 2: Next, they analyzed all my answers and handpicked clean, sustainably

239
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 2: sourced ingredients to help me reach my hair goals. I

240
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,080
Speaker 2: got the shampoo, I got the conditioner, I got the

241
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 2: shampoo mask, and I got the curl cream. And I'm

242
00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 2: legit here as a scent obsessed person.

243
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,960
Speaker 3: They smell so good. They smell so good, and it's working,

244
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 3: and it's working.

245
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 2: It's working. It feels so nice in my hair. I'm

246
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 2: like truly inlone with this product. Also, the bottle's pretty cute.

247
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 1: As a carbon neutral certified Beacorp, Pros as an industry

248
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,840
Speaker 1: leader in clean and respond beauty. All their ingredients are

249
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 1: sustainably sourced, ethically gathered, and cruelty free. They're also the

250
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 1: first custom beauty brand to go carbon neutral. If you're

251
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 1: not one hundred percent positive, Pros is the best hair

252
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,920
Speaker 1: care you've tried, they will take the products back, no

253
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 1: question asked.

254
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 2: Custom made to order haircare with Prose is the key

255
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 2: to achieving all your hair goals this year.

256
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:19,959
Speaker 3: Take your free in.

257
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,440
Speaker 2: Depth hair consultation and get fifteen percent off your first

258
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 2: order today. Go to pros dot com slash trust that's

259
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 2: pr Se dot com slash trust for your free in

260
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 2: depth hair consultation and fifteen percent off. So in cults,

261
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,359
Speaker 2: we see this in scientology, we see this in nexium.

262
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,679
Speaker 2: We see this in like every single religious cult that

263
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,520
Speaker 2: talks about shedding all of your shame. There is this

264
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 2: demand of its followers to achieve something that is literally

265
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 2: completely unattainable.

266
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 3: Right.

267
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 2: We see this in self help groups for sure. And

268
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,360
Speaker 2: so what ends up happening is like people will leave

269
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,719
Speaker 2: a cult like this, but they will retain, as we

270
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 2: see in Scrupulosity, OCD can frequently retain this like inner

271
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 2: sort of their inner cult leader. I guess who's telling them, No,

272
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 2: you have to shed that, you have to get rid

273
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 2: of that, you have to get rid of that, you

274
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 2: have to be perfect. You can't be like that and

275
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 2: it can take years and years of work to unpack this, and.

276
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:32,320
Speaker 3: That is that little cult leader in our brains is

277
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 3: the thing.

278
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 2: I guess that to me feels like perfectionism is extremely

279
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 2: relevant discussions about cults. Yes, yes, because it's not like

280
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,240
Speaker 2: the reason why it's so abusive to demand this of

281
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,199
Speaker 2: people is because it's impossible, So why would we then

282
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 2: also demand it of ourselves and everyone else that we

283
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 2: know not.

284
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,080
Speaker 1: Only is it impossible, but asking yourself. There's a book

285
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,400
Speaker 1: called Send Bravely by Maggie Row that's wonderful, especially for

286
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,920
Speaker 1: anyone suffering from OCD or religion trauma syndrome.

287
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 3: But she talks about going.

288
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 1: To this She was raised religiously and she got obsessed

289
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 1: with going to Hell, which is something I went through

290
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: as well and still struggle with. And she went to

291
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: this basically rehab. It's like a Christian rehab, but for

292
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 1: people who are struggling with different different elements and they're

293
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 1: going to fix it through prayer and whatever.

294
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 3: So she was there because she was terrified of going

295
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:25,840
Speaker 3: to hell.

296
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 1: And then there was a set of twins there who

297
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 1: were there because they couldn't they couldn't stop thinking about

298
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: having sex with their mother, and they didn't want to

299
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: They didn't want to think that, they didn't want to.

300
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 3: Have sex with their mother.

301
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: They were kids, Yeah, and they couldn't stop thinking it

302
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: because they were taught don't think about sex, don't think

303
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,320
Speaker 1: about that, and then it's just like overtook their entire lives.

304
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 3: Well.

305
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 2: Thought suppression is like if anyone doesn't know the term

306
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 2: thought suppression, thought suppression is the analogy that people always

307
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 2: use is that it's like trying to hold a beach

308
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 2: ball down in the ocean. Don't think that, don't think that,

309
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 2: I don't think that, But when you le go, it

310
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 2: just shoots right back up to the surface. Exactly more

311
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 2: you try to force yourself not to think something or

312
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: force yourself not to do something, the more obsessed about

313
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 2: that thing you actually become.

314
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,120
Speaker 1: And if you are not consciously aware of it, you're

315
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 1: still unconsciously probably like acting out in ways that you

316
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: don't even realize, which is why therapy is so crucial.

317
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 1: But it was just really interesting to read this book

318
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: about this, you know, bizarre cast of misfits who found

319
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 1: their way to this Christian thing and are all dealing

320
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: with the shame and the OCD and everything about it

321
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: And the name of the book comes from a verse

322
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: in the Bible where it says something about sen bravely

323
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 1: and her consensus is like love that, you know, come

324
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 1: like you're gonna have to send if you're alive, So

325
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 1: make your choices bravely and authentically, and you're gonna make mistakes.

326
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 3: I love it.

327
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing that I feel

328
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 2: like I really struggle with is accepting like I'm gonna

329
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 2: fuck it up. Someone might be mad, I might be

330
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 2: mad at myself, I might hurt someone happen. If it

331
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 2: does happen, it's not intentional, It's a stake, right, and I.

332
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 3: Will survive that.

333
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 2: That That is what feels. It feels like this catastrophic idea,

334
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 2: like what if I fuck something up? What if I

335
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 2: like ruin everything and then and yeah, it just feels

336
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 2: like my life will will end if I do that.

337
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 2: You know, it's particularly happening just like right now because

338
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 2: I'm having this like theme that is cropped up, which

339
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 2: is like a lot to do with the podcast, to

340
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 2: be honest, we deal with so many trauma stories and

341
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 2: stories that are just like totally heartrending and difficult and

342
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: the idea that like we would mishandle that are in

343
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 2: some way or like or even just like not serve

344
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 2: our listeners by giving them too many trauma stories or

345
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 2: like just whatever it is, like you name the narrative.

346
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 2: I have it in my head of like, oh my god,

347
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do that, you know, and it's just not

348
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 2: I felt like by not naming that out loud, I

349
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,479
Speaker 2: was not being authentic because I'm coming into our interviews

350
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,640
Speaker 2: every week and being like, but.

351
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,720
Speaker 1: Then, do you feel like by naming it you're giving

352
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 1: people ammunition? Is that the fear like people who you know,

353
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: somebody has it out for your mom, and do they

354
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: have it out for you?

355
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,879
Speaker 3: And then by saying that fear out loud, is that scary?

356
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah?

357
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is basically an exposure I see and an exposure.

358
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,400
Speaker 1: Explain to those of us who have not been through

359
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 1: the CD treatment, what is that?

360
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,679
Speaker 2: Exposure and response prevention therapy is when you are so

361
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 2: afraid of something that you become obsessed.

362
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:30,959
Speaker 3: You cannot stop thinking about it.

363
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,159
Speaker 2: It's looping on your head and it's usually not rational

364
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,400
Speaker 2: and you usually know it's not rational, but it doesn't

365
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 2: make it better. So in order to neutralize that, like

366
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 2: those thought loops that we get stuck in and the

367
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 2: anxiety that.

368
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 3: Those thoughts produce.

369
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 2: What you do, with the guidance of a therapist, do

370
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,639
Speaker 2: not do this on your own. What you do is

371
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,920
Speaker 2: you purposely, slowly building up to it. You purposely expose

372
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 2: yourself to whatever it is that you are afraid of,

373
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 2: whatever it is you're suppressing in yourself, whatever thought it

374
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,680
Speaker 2: is that you're avoiding. Right, So, for me, the thought

375
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 2: that I'm suppressing and the anxiety have been trying to

376
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 2: avoid is like the fear that I will do something wrong, criticism,

377
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 2: criticism or or retraumatizing someone or like just doing just

378
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 2: doing something wrong. So this becomes very wrapped up in

379
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 2: the perfections that I already have, which is like, I'm

380
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 2: supposed to be the best.

381
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 3: You're never going to be the best, Lola. There's always

382
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 3: going to be someone better. Yeah, so, but you can

383
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 3: be the best Lola. I just want to be the

384
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:31,439
Speaker 3: best me I can be.

385
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 2: I want to embrace a person, being a human person

386
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,959
Speaker 2: who has flaws. It is really really hard to do

387
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 2: that publicly because I know, I know, you know, we've

388
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,119
Speaker 2: gotten critiques for various things we've done. Everyone has different

389
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,440
Speaker 2: opinions about the tone that we take or or don't take.

390
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:48,880
Speaker 3: I mean, even us saying.

391
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 1: M hm, which I've said fifteen times, and I'm like,

392
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,439
Speaker 1: oh my god, somebody's gonna hate that.

393
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 3: I'm going mm hmm.

394
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 2: I want to do my absolute best to be as

395
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 2: like mindful and empathetic and caring and human as I

396
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: can be as a person. But beyond that, there's just

397
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 2: like there's only so much that I.

398
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can either hide in your closet or come

399
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 1: out and be a person that's gonna make mistakes. Yeah,

400
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 1: and I would rather hide in my closet, but you know,

401
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: life demands would.

402
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 2: Rather hide in my closet. I have debated, Yeah, I

403
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 2: just hid my Should I just quit all my careers

404
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 2: and like just go live on a farm, because yeah,

405
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,640
Speaker 2: it's just so scary. It's just so scary, know I mean,

406
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 2: what is your inner cult leader tell you?

407
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean, my innercult leader is just it's very much

408
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: like freeze, just freeze, stop hide, because.

409
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 2: What will happen if you If you don't then I

410
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 2: just don't matter. If you don't hide, then.

411
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 3: No, no, no.

412
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: If I don't do things perfectly, then I don't matter,

413
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: so I can't do things perfectly, so just stop or

414
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: wait till you're perfect and then do it. Yeah, And

415
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 1: it's just my whole life is been like I'm gonna

416
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: be perfect soon, so then I'll do yeah, oh my.

417
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 2: God, yeah totally, totally yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean so

418
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: much of anxiety recovery too, is about, like we're if

419
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 2: you are someone who has an anxiety disorder, and that

420
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 2: is there is a distinction between just like getting anxious

421
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 2: about things sometimes and like or even very anxious, and

422
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 2: having an anxiety disorder where you're anxious about your anxiety

423
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,439
Speaker 2: and it's like crippling one of the ways. But this

424
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 2: could apply to anyone with anxiety. One of the primary

425
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 2: ways that you recover is oh I feel anxious. Huh interesting, Okay,

426
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: I feel anxious. Maybe something will go horribly wrong. I'm

427
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: gonna do it anyway.

428
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was one of the hard things about OCD

429
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,919
Speaker 1: treatment that because I went to the same center that

430
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 1: you went to that specializes in it, and so she'd

431
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, so the worst thing that you can

432
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: think of happens and then you accept it before it happens.

433
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, Okay, so I'm scared of Hell,

434
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: the religious trauma thing. Okay, well you're going to Hell.

435
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: Hell is drill and you're going there, now what And

436
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: it's like.

437
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 3: I guess it's okay, what else can it be? You know?

438
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 3: Once you like, I mean, I guess that's at an

439
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 3: the extreme level.

440
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, yeah, Well one of the when when

441
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: I was in recovery and i'm and I'm I'm getting

442
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: back into a support group now, which I think is

443
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: gonna be really cool. But when I was.

444
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 3: In my primary recovery or whatever, that's not a term.

445
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that.

446
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: We would have to do scripts about like the worst

447
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: thing that was gonna happen to me, and so I

448
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: was concerned. I was afraid I was gonna lose my

449
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 2: mind right and or and lose giant chunks of my memory.

450
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: I would get so anxious around stuff to do with

451
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: my relationship because it was so important to me, because

452
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: I love my boyfriend so much, and I like knew

453
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: he was the one that I It fixates on whatever

454
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 2: is the most important to you, whatever you value the most.

455
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: So I was like, I'm gonna lose my memories of him.

456
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm I'm gonna lose my mind and no one will

457
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: love me. So we had to take that to its fullest. Okay,

458
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: what happens, what happens when you lose your mind? Well,

459
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: then I'll get checked into a psychiatric institution. Okay, then

460
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: what happens, Well, then I'll live in a psychiatric institution.

461
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 2: And then what happens, Well, maybe no one will love

462
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: me anymore. And then you actually have to think about

463
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, probably some people will still love me.

464
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 3: Probably I'll make friends in the psychle just taking your

465
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 3: brain to the end of the line.

466
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: Taking your brain to the end of line. But that's

467
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of a separate thing from the

468
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: earlier point that I was making, which is just that,

469
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 2: like you, what does that quote feel to fear and

470
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: do it?

471
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 3: Anyway? I like that book. That's a book as well.

472
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 3: It's a book. Yeah, it's a book.

473
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: That's very short and very good, and it has a

474
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: lot of cool exercises that you can do. And basically

475
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,479
Speaker 1: it's just like everyone's scared, everyone's uncertain. You know, you

476
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 1: could literally get your head chopped off anytime you live

477
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: the house.

478
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: So it just out and you will and you will

479
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 3: anyway chophobics.

480
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, it's just something I want to practice,

481
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 2: and this is me practicing it right now. It's like cool.

482
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: I don't like talking about the stuff. It makes me

483
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable. I don't like people. I don't like thousands

484
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: of people knowing that I have these fears. But I

485
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 2: also think a lot of people have these fears, and

486
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,479
Speaker 2: if I don't share them, like I'm depriving. Like I

487
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: want to share them in case there is anyone out

488
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: there who wants to feel seen and wants to feel understood.

489
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 2: And also so I can be more authentic to myself,

490
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: like I'm not. I don't know what I'm doing all

491
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: the time. I might sound confident, but I'm like fucking

492
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: terrified all the time. Yeah yeah, So where did your

493
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: perfectionism begin in your life?

494
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 3: Do you think? Mmm?

495
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, So when I was little, I went

496
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: to a really intense private school, but I was dyslexic

497
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: and I did not know what the fuck anyone was

498
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: talking about ever, so I was really bad at math.

499
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: Also dyslexic, so I couldn't read, and by the time

500
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: I learned how to read, I was like a very

501
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: prolific reader and it was all good, and I you know,

502
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,719
Speaker 1: did well in English. But up into that point, I

503
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: was just really stressed out, felt really stupid whatever. But

504
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: nothing really, nothing really like got set in stone until

505
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: around eighth grade when I suddenly became obsessed with the

506
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 1: future and I started making vision boards of like myself

507
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: in the future, and I stopped living in the present

508
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 1: completely and I was like, I'm going to be this person.

509
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: And it coincided with me suddenly like binging on food

510
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: until I was so sick. I wasn't bullimic, but just

511
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: like making myself so full, I would be so sick,

512
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: and I was always really skinny, and I gained a

513
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: bunch of weight, and like was so stressed out and

514
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 1: just started cleaning my room all of the time, like

515
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: eating all of the time, making these vision boards, being

516
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: like I'm going to be this person. I'm going to

517
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: be this person. And then it just slowly turned into

518
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: this really deep like well first eating disorder, like then

519
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: I became completely inerrexic, then bolliemic, then all of it,

520
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: but super self hatred and really really obsessive, just couldn't

521
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: stop thinking things, couldn't stop cleaning.

522
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: Or would go the exact opposite way.

523
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: It would be like I'd be innarexic and very clean

524
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: and vary this, or I'd be boliemic and very messy

525
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: and very this. And the vision boarding the perfect person.

526
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: It all started with this, Like, I mean, I love

527
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: vision boarding, but it all started when I was looking

528
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: at magazines and I was like, uh huh oh, I'm

529
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: going to construct a perfect me, Like I'm going to

530
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: be like I'm going to.

531
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 3: Cut out all these things.

532
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: And then that stress made me need some outlet.

533
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: I think.

534
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: So, do you think that the religion that you were

535
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: in the two way twos was like connected to that

536
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 2: or you think it was almost like you're in this religion,

537
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: you don't really identify with it, and you see this

538
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: society out there that you really want to be a

539
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: part of that you don't get to be a part.

540
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: Of totally that, Yeah, and I mean just not having

541
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: anything really to do because of the right you know,

542
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: I wasn't little Hands of the Devil's Yeah, I just

543
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: had books and vision boards. So I think it I

544
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: think it married into a far bigger problem than it

545
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: would have been.

546
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, so You're.

547
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 2: Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna better I'm gonna better. I'm

548
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: gonna be better and be.

549
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: Better different, I'm gonna be a completely different person, like

550
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: when I would think about my future, like when I'm

551
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: a different person.

552
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like that like hit me in my heart?

553
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 3: Do you feel that? Would you feel that way too?

554
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 3: Or no?

555
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: No?

556
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: But I feel like I feel it now interesting?

557
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm like, what is what

558
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: if I made myself into? What is this life?

559
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 3: Like?

560
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: I just sometimes I'm like I wish it should just

561
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: be someone else, Like I wish I just like erase

562
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: all this start over, just like become an entirely new person.

563
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: But but when I was a kid, I dreamed, I

564
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: mean I dreamed of stardom, right, and I dreamed of

565
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: like love and adoration and attention. But I don't think

566
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: but I was also the smart girl, So I think, yeah,

567
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: for me, it really came from this place of just

568
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: wanting to achieve, wanting to achieve, wanting to achieve, and

569
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: also also I will say growing up in a family,

570
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: growing up in both a religion that's like extremely patriarchal

571
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: and in a family that is three boys. In me,

572
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: I think I also developed this like resistance to showing

573
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 2: any weakness. Right, weakness was what girls did. And I

574
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 2: wasn't like a girl, right, I was like the boys.

575
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: And it was nothing. It was no fault of anyone

576
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: in my family. That's just the dynamic that developed where

577
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 2: I'm like hanging out with dudes all the time, and

578
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like one of you. I don't show

579
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: feelings ever. Feelings are bad, feelings are dumb. In fact,

580
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: other girls are dumb. I'm yeah, cool girl. Yeah, And

581
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: my mom is just like that. Like my mom is

582
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: an identical twin and her twin is very worried and

583
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 2: very whatever. And then my mom became just like very lazy,

584
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: ar like she is a long distance runner. She doesn't

585
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: really cry, she like drives really fast and like, you

586
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: know what I mean, She's just like cool.

587
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: And I think I took some of that on. But yeah,

588
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: I when did it start for you?

589
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: Well, I think with that stuff, I mean I think

590
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 2: like I think suppressing my feelings with something I learned

591
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: very young and not like they were a sign of weakness.

592
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: And I'm not a weak person. Is the is the

593
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: story that I told myself. I'm right, not a weak person.

594
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: I'm a strong person. And the more you tell yourself

595
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 2: throughout your life that you're not a weak person, you're

596
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: a strong person, but then you actually encounter real difficult

597
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: human traumatic situations or not traumatic and just hard because

598
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: not everything is trauma. But like then it's like almost

599
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: in conflict with that narrative of like I'm I'm strong,

600
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: nothing bothers me. I'm strong, nothing bothers me. And then

601
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: it becomes this like avoidant cycle of.

602
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: Like everything bothers me. Wait, absolutely everything bothers me.

603
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

604
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyway, like I know this, this is like

605
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: this is it's not a typical episode. It's not like

606
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: like literally, we're not a normal episode.

607
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: We're a cool episode.

608
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: This is a flawed episode, God forbid.

609
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: So growing up no television, not allowed to have a TV,

610
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: all I wanted to do was be a ballerina, but

611
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't take dance lessons. But ironically, my dad went

612
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: to medical school with Natalie Portman's dad.

613
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: Do you remember this? No, I don't. Okay, you don't remember.

614
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: That vaguely, Okay, So she's a little bit older than me,

615
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: but I went to a ballet class with her once.

616
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: Uh huh, and it was humiliating and she.

617
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: Was perfect, and she always has been perfect, and again

618
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to watch television or.

619
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: Movies, but like we would go visit.

620
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: We've visited her on a few sets that she was on,

621
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: or when she was in Nan frank and Broadway.

622
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 3: I got to go, I got to go stay and.

623
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: Like go backstage, and I saw mccuay culkin because mccauay culkin.

624
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: Was engaged to the girl who played her sister, and I.

625
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: Was just like, oh my god, like now I have

626
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: to fly back to Kansas, where I can't even watch

627
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: TV or can't even do anything. And then she's like

628
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: won an Oscar for being a ballerina. And then one

629
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: of my best friends out here was also best friends

630
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: with her.

631
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: So I threw my.

632
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: Best friend a birthday party one year and I was

633
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: like fine, but then Natalie threw it the next year

634
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: and it was like so much better, and I was like,

635
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: damn it.

636
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: She does seem she seems perfect, but she also seems

637
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: like someone I wouldn't know how to be friends with.

638
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: Right.

639
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure she's so nice, very but like when I

640
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: can't like see the human like cracks in someone, I

641
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: have a really hard time connecting with them, right, I'm like, why,

642
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: where's your damage? Like, show me the parts of you

643
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: that are fucked up, because if not, then I feel

644
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: like a freak, right, you know?

645
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: Right?

646
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: I mean?

647
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: And I don't even know if that applies to the story.

648
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: It was just a very funny thing to have happening

649
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: in your life when you can't watch movies and this

650
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: person that you know is becoming the biggest movie.

651
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: Star in the world, like Star Wars.

652
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: You know, it was just such a weird thing to

653
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: have happen, and then to have her share my friend

654
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: was just the icing on the top. But wow, it

655
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: kind of brings us to this topic of like, we

656
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: have to talk, we have to say things, we have

657
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: to express ourselves. They might not always be exactly correct,

658
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: but we've kind of created a culture right now where

659
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: there's no room for dialogue, mistakes, questions, and it's very

660
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: like freezing.

661
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: It is so freezing. I had a lot of anxiety

662
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: about talking about this, even because it is pretty interconnected

663
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: with cancel culture and with a fear of making a

664
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: mistake that gets me canceled.

665
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 3: I don't even like saying it out.

666
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: Loud because it does feel like, no, this will be

667
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: misinterpreted and I will misinterpret.

668
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: This by saying I'm scared of being canceled. It's like

669
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: indicating that you have thoughts that are cancelable, and that's incriminating.

670
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if we're being honest, every single person has

671
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: thoughts that are cancelable. And that's the number one thing

672
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: that you actually do learn in OCD recovery is that, like,

673
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: you can't control your thoughts, Like thoughts are just random

674
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: generation of noise from your brain. So this is the

675
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: thing that happens very commonly where people are like, Oh,

676
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: I'm having a thought that's inappropriate, it's wrong.

677
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: I disagree with that thought.

678
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: That thought is bad, and that can often translate into

679
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: like that must mean that I'm bad, that I've done

680
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 2: something bad, I'm going to do something bad. H And

681
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: regardless of the thoughts, the truth is that no matter

682
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: how perfect we are trying to be, how good we

683
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: are trying to be, we're gonna fuck it up sometimes

684
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: every and by we, I mean everybody, like everyone is

685
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: gonna fuck up sometimes.

686
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

687
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: I feel like there is this way of thinking right

688
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: now that it's hard to talk about because some of

689
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: the worst actors around are the ones who talk about it.

690
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: The people who are saying cancel culture is bad for

691
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: the most part.

692
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: You know, obviously there are exceptions.

693
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: There are people like Clementine Morgan and Africa Brook Michael

694
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: Brooks talked about it before he died.

695
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: There are leftist who we're talking about it.

696
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 2: But for the most part, people are hearing that narrative

697
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: coming from very right wing people who really just want

698
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: the freedom to be transphobic.

699
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 3: Right are racist or whatever.

700
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like, ugh, I don't get to

701
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: say the N word or I don't get to like

702
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: not use someone's preferred pronouns. Well, cancel culture is ruining everything,

703
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, it's not, that's not what's happening. However,

704
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: wild origin of cancel culture makes absolute sense because people

705
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: were not talking about rape culture. People were not talking

706
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: about the deep rooted racism within our country. People were

707
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: not talking about that, and people were not facing consequences

708
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: when they were repeatedly sexually assaulting someone or creating a

709
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: culture of white supremacy or whatever.

710
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: No one was talking about it. We needed it.

711
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: The law wasn't helping rape victims. It still really isn't

712
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: for the most part, I mean, sometimes mostly not so

713
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: it makes sense that like we needed this culturally, and

714
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: then we've said this before, but like there is also

715
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: a point that you can get at where it's like,

716
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: how do we exist in this world and like be

717
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: against those things and truly not want them. We truly

718
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: want to eradicate racism, want to eradicate the ills of capitalism,

719
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 2: and want to eradicate homophobia, transphobia, sexism. Like, true, you

720
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: want to eradicate those things, but also not be hyper

721
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: vigilant about every single mistake that someone has ever made. Right,

722
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: some of the people I know, I think I've said

723
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: this before as well, but some of the people I

724
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: know who are the most outwardly ready to cancel people

725
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: are some of the same people who themselves have done

726
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: highly cancelable things. First, I would never call them out

727
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: on that. I don't think that's constructive. I do think

728
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: that they have learned a lot, But it almost seems

729
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: like it's coming from this place of I have to

730
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: shed my own sin by pointing out other people's sin.

731
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean I would go a step further and say

732
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: it's coming from a place of like complete obliviousness and

733
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: non self awareness. A lot of the people I see

734
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 1: who are like, cancel, cancel, cancel, And like, one of

735
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: my acquaintances was very upset about something pretty benign somebody

736
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: had said, and so I went back and her Twitter,

737
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: and I was like, look at what you said six

738
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: years ago and you haven't even a raced it, Like

739
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: this is a scale of one to ten, This is

740
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: a ten, and you're publicly shaming somebody for something that's

741
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: a two, Like you have no self awareness?

742
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: Right?

743
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: So I think most people it comes back to that

744
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: point that somebody we had on here was making a

745
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: few people we've had on here making that's like anybody

746
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: moderate isn't usually on the internet shaming people, canceling people

747
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: causing drama because there's.

748
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 3: No point in it, right. It's people who maybe lack

749
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: a little bit of self.

750
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: Awareness, right well, And then there is research coming out

751
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: to that the people who are the most vocal about

752
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: it there's a correlation with the high levels of narcissism

753
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 2: as well. Of course, something that I feel like I've

754
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: I noticed culturally, with this culture of perfection and expecting

755
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: perfection and purity, it almost feels like an OCD culture.

756
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: If someone has said something wrong, even if it was

757
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: a long time ago, and they don't think that anymore

758
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: and they've denounced it. It's like contagious where it's like,

759
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: don't talk to that person, don't interact with that person,

760
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: don't associate with that person because it will get on you.

761
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: It's almost like it reminds me a lot of contamination OCD.

762
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: Interesting where it's like, obviously if someone is like genuinely

763
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: authentically like out there doing.

764
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, horrible things, right, Like that's different.

765
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: But it's like, oh, we found one mistake in someone's

766
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: Twitter history from twelve years ago that they're so embarrassed

767
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: by now or whatever. Don't get it on me. Don't

768
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: get it on me. And the way I'll not get

769
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: it on me is by calling it out and like

770
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: publicly adding them to sort of assert my own cleanliness. Right,

771
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Does that make sense completely? It has nothing to do

772
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 2: with disagreeing with the basic premise that racism is bad

773
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: and sexirad and transport.

774
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: I guess like if.

775
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: Somebody tweeted something in the past that had like a

776
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: very offensive.

777
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: Word, well they were like women should die.

778
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, then you know, yeah, probably a bad egg.

779
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 2: But even then, like we talked to Frank Mink, who

780
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: used to truly be a neo Nazi and completely denounces

781
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: it now because he didn't have access to like a

782
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: better culture of better information, a better community at that time,

783
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: and now he's like the most vehement like anti you know,

784
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: police brutality activists.

785
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: So it's like, but what about somebody who has had

786
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: access to all the information in the world and they

787
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: still say stupid shit.

788
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of people who are

789
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: doing that, and if they are currently today.

790
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: Like actively proactively.

791
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: Willfully saying things to be offensive or that are offensive,

792
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: that is different from someone who's like I do not

793
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: identify with this like way of thinking.

794
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 3: I do not believe in this.

795
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,479
Speaker 2: Like we literally are a podcast about people about Colt,

796
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: about people who used to believe.

797
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: Crazy shit and they don't anymore.

798
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: And they're like, I can't believe I thought that, Like

799
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: I don't even recognize that person. Of course that's wrong.

800
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: Of course Keith Nary isn't the like answer to all

801
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: my problems. And I don't need to like, you know,

802
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 2: become a part of his like sex pyramid in order

803
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: to achieve enlightenment or whatever.

804
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was just reading about something about him,

805
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: and they like this woman, the nikki woman, who's just

806
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: coming out and renouncing him. Was like, I'm embarrassed to

807
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: say this, but I literally thought he was magic and

808
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: reading my mind.

809
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's so common though, y Like that

810
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: is the thing about cults, right, So so for me,

811
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: all I'm saying is I'm not saying that like we

812
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: should we should not denounce bad ideas, because we should

813
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: one hundred percent we should. We should denounce people who

814
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: are spreading them too, the Tucker Carlson's and the and

815
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: the Trumps and the you know, Jordan Peterson has said

816
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: quite a bit of quite a few problematic things that

817
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 2: are actively harming trans people in the way we treat

818
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: trans people in this culture. That said, like, I you know,

819
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 2: I think of myself as someone who really really cares

820
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: about justice and equality. That's something that's very important to me,

821
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: and justice has always made me angry always. But I

822
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: can think of things I've said that I think about

823
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: now and I'm like, like, when I was young, like

824
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: in high school or whatever, that I'm like, what the fuck,

825
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: Why would you say that? Why would you think that?

826
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 3: That's crazy? Right, ridiculous, But at the time.

827
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: That my world was just small, and I've said this before,

828
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: Like we all have access to the internet, but we

829
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: don't all have access to good ideas on the internet.

830
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: Like we are still in the communities that we're in

831
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: on the internet, and we still think that our our

832
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: group is wrong no matter what. So like in order

833
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 2: to break out of that, something has to like crack

834
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: us open, yeah, fault, I mean, And that's.

835
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: Why we always say follow a few people that you

836
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: don't agree with that aren't totally insane.

837
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or people that you agree with sometimes but

838
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: not all of the time. And like I don't think

839
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: you should be fall Like I do think that you know,

840
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 2: as we know, like people who are repeatedly saying untrue

841
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: things or sure problematic things like that can literally like

842
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: start to feel more true just because you've heard it

843
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: over and over again. So I would say, not that,

844
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: but like we should be talking to people and listening

845
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 2: to people and looking at people who we sometimes disagree with. Yeah,

846
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: I think that's really important.

847
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: Listen, y'all.

848
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: I'm see, I'm not I'm not perfect, but like I

849
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: really want to do the right thing, and I feel

850
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: like that is the that's what I look for in

851
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: other people as well. Like I don't want to. I

852
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: don't want to have this. I don't want to be

853
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: stuck in this way of thinking where I'm like, what

854
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 2: have you done wrong? What mistake have you ever made?

855
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: What flaw do you have? Because you're always going to

856
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: find something if that's what you're looking for, right, I

857
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: want to I want to look at people and be like,

858
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: what are you? Are you trying to do the right thing?

859
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: What is your what is your like? Well, I guess

860
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: I guess that that is the only I was trying

861
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: to find another way to say that. But are you

862
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: trying to do the right thing? Is your heart in

863
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: the right place? Are you messing up sometimes? But then

864
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: you try to correct it when you do mess up.

865
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: And that's the thing, like, if you do mess up,

866
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: if you do funck up, what comes after?

867
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,479
Speaker 1: Right? And I think that that, I mean, I think

868
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: that you're right, and that most people and your exact

869
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: political leaning and and like education and the things that like,

870
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: they're like a lot of them say, hey, if your

871
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: family is saying stuff like this, don't talk to them.

872
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: You know.

873
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 3: That's a very common yeah, And it's.

874
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: Wrong, and it's wrong, It's completely wrong, because then people

875
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: aren't talking to each other and there's no information, So

876
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: those people are going to be mad that you're saying this.

877
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: You're right, But in the and if anyone and hasn't

878
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: heard all our many episodes talking to experts on this,

879
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: every fucking psychologist that we have talked to about extreme

880
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: thinking says the most important thing is to stay connected

881
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: to those people because the more otherwise they are going

882
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: to be more isolated, they're not going to believe that

883
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: there's community for them outside of their bad thinking.

884
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: Right. And that's again that's if it's your family, and

885
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: if it's someone.

886
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: You care about, right and of course if you're you know,

887
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: of course there's very abusive families that you do not

888
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: need to stay in Contact boundaries are important. Yeah, but

889
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, if your family is just like trying their

890
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: hardest and they.

891
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: Watch way off, Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

892
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna keep saying yeah over and over again.

893
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: I also want to ask you about, like, you know,

894
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: one of the I think one of the reasons that

895
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: I get so uncomfortable with with this idea of expecting

896
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: perfection from ourselves or other people is that I have

897
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 2: loved ones in my life, multiple who are in twelve

898
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: step programs and who have done things that they completely

899
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: regret when they were not sober. Whatever that means for them.

900
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: I have, you know, in various programs, and it's not

901
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: who they are. If they don't, they're not proud of it.

902
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: They've tried to make amends whenever possible. And like I'm

903
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: being vague, but like my brother's an adict. My brother's

904
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: an adict, and he has lived on the street, and

905
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: like you know, it's not a like that is not

906
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 2: a healthy lifestyle. People are not being nice to each other,

907
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. When you're on the street

908
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: and you're doing every fucking drug under the sun, like

909
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: you you might rob someone.

910
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: It might happen.

911
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: I have lots of people in my life like this,

912
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: maybe not all as extreme as him, but like they've

913
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: they've made mistakes. You are someone who has spent time

914
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 2: in a recovery program, Like, what is your thinking on that?

915
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 3: On my past mistakes?

916
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: Unlike if someone like what can we learn from recovery programs?

917
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: I guess, Oh my god, I mean, yeah, that you're

918
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: not stuck as who you used to be, that you

919
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: don't have to identify with anything that is isn't isn't

920
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 1: who you that this might be OCD because I'm about

921
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: to say you don't have to identify with anything that's

922
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: not your highest ideal of yourself.

923
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: But then that's like, uh, you stop to be real.

924
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: But those things don't define they don't define you, right, Yeah,

925
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: Like if we were all defined by our by the

926
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: worst thing we'd ever done, we would just like all die,

927
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: Like what would we do? How would we live?

928
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: Right?

929
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: How would we live? And I like, I think that's

930
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: it's so it's so relevant to me to people coming

931
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 2: out of colts because so much of the time people

932
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: who are victims like end up doing things that the

933
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: leader says that they don't feel comfortable doing or like

934
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: that aren't ill aling with their true selves, and like

935
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: how do you contend with that after?

936
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: And it's so hard for me still, Like every time

937
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm reading, I'll bring it back to Nikki Klein, you know,

938
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: I'm like, ugh, you dummy, I hate you just out

939
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: there supporting Keith who's raped kids and done all this

940
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: stupid shit. But then one I can really humanize them.

941
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: And I had the same reaction when we were talking

942
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: to Jan Burberg. I like was like, I hate your mom,

943
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: she's so stupid.

944
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 3: And then I.

945
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: Talked to her for an hour, but before I came

946
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: into the number way, I hated her mother, you know,

947
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: like you let have grown man lay in bed with

948
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: your daughter and told you it was her therapy, and

949
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: then you let her hang out with him again after

950
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: he kidnapped her. And then you talk to somebody and

951
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: they humanized that person and you're like, oh, I kind

952
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: of get it.

953
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: Here's all the context.

954
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 1: Here are the context, here's how yeah, And you're just like.

955
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: Oh, god like and that's like I don't want it

956
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: to sound like, you know, you can't excuse everything this,

957
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: this is not acceptable right ever, and we do have

958
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: to have boundaries if that's ever occurring. But you know,

959
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: I think it's just like we just live in a

960
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: time where we are not seeing each other as like

961
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 2: complete human beings, and it's so easy for that to

962
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: happen because of the Internet and because we're just like

963
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: we don't I you know, like I see in my

964
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: my friend groups, my various friend groups, there will be

965
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: conflict between two people and you'll talk to one person,

966
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: you talk to the other person.

967
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 3: Oh like two sides to every story.

968
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: Completely completely like one person is like, dah, just the

969
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: fucking worst they did this thing. And then the other

970
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: person's like, but it was because of X, Y and Z,

971
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, that's actually really understandable. But they're

972
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: not talking to each other and so they're demonizing each other,

973
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: and I just it just comes back to like again,

974
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: not with people who are like chronically abusive narcissistic. With

975
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: narciss yeah, you can leave them alone.

976
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: That's fault. Leader is just let's go.

977
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 2: But otherwise most people are like trying, and we often,

978
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: we so often commit the fundamental attribution error, which is

979
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: to give ourselves context and say that our actions are

980
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: because of all of the things we were dealing with

981
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: that day, but do not lend people the same empathy

982
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: or you know, in the case of perfectionism, we don't

983
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: even lend the empathy to ourselves.

984
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: Am amon No, immm, I'm i am.

985
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: So what's the lesson here?

986
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: The lesson is I think that allows yourself to be

987
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: messy while also striving to be striving to grow, Like

988
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 2: I don't Jack was telling me, I haven't read this,

989
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: but Jack was telling me, you know, there was a

990
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: woman who wrote with her mentor I guess. At one

991
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: point she wrote about how perfectionism is a tool of

992
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: white supremacy, and then a bunch of white people were like,

993
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: I'm late for work, but it's because perfectionism is a

994
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: tool of white supremacy, and this is how I'm fighting

995
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: white subremacy. It's like, no, like, it's not free brain

996
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 2: to free that's not the word that I wanted.

997
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: No, it definitely isn't okay. Free license.

998
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: Oh it's not free license to just be a piece

999
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: of shit, right, Like we should all be trying to

1000
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: be better. We should try to be better. But when

1001
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: we don't meet those goals and we don't make it,

1002
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: because we're not gonna make it every time, it's not

1003
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: going to be exactly right every time. It's just not

1004
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: like I think having some grace for ourselves is like.

1005
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: Ray, and having grace for ourselves keeps us out of

1006
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 1: the clutches of cults.

1007
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, because we don't need all the answers.

1008
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: Life is not black and white. There's no concrete meaning.

1009
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: You gotta find your own values and find your own interests.

1010
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: And it's so tempting to get somebody who goes, here's

1011
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: what it is, and here's what you believe, and here's

1012
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: what a good.

1013
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 3: Person is and done. And it's not like that.

1014
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: It's very nuanced, it's very it's very complicated. So being

1015
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: an adult is not easy. Give yourself a pat on

1016
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: the back for even making it this far.

1017
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 2: And you know, and love and learn to love the uncertainty.

1018
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: Learn to love the messiness and the chaos. I mean

1019
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't, but I'm.

1020
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to. Somehow.

1021
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: I can get stressed out about, like like a mess

1022
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: in someone else's house that I don't even know me do.

1023
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 2: I want to clean people's houses for them.

1024
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

1025
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: My house isn't even that clean, but it's so weird.

1026
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I guess what we're trying to say

1027
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: here is listeners, you're human.

1028
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: You don't have to be perfect. Nope, just try to

1029
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 3: be better.

1030
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: Just do your best, do your best to grow, do

1031
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: your best to learn.

1032
00:47:59,360 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 3: That's a word.

1033
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: That's what we're being honest about today. Yeah, And if

1034
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: I just said anything that is hertful to you, then

1035
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: I will just disappear into the ground because that is

1036
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: the last thing that I want. But honestly, like we're

1037
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: just trying to be authentic and have conversations about things

1038
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: that are kind of hard to talk about.

1039
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: No, not amen, agreed, It's very important everybody give yourself

1040
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: a break, get into therapy and enjoy the gray and.

1041
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: Fuck the man. Fuck the man, all right, not a man,

1042
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: the man, that man perfect. Well. Thanks for listening to

1043
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: us for another week, everybody.

1044
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again next week, and

1045
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: as always, remember to follow you that, watch out for

1046
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: red flags, and never.

1047
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 3: Ever trust me. Bye bye.

1048
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1049
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1050
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 3: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1051
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1052
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1053
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1054
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1055
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1056
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1057
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1058
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word