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Speaker 1: We're back with another Schools Stories presented by three M,

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Speaker 1: the official science partner in Minnesota Vikings. Tonight, we're catching

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Speaker 1: up with football legend Paul Wigan. Welcome back to school

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Speaker 1: Stories presented by three M. Tonight, we're catching up with

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Speaker 1: a man who's been around the game of football for

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Speaker 1: seven decades. He played with Jim Brown with the Browns

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Speaker 1: and was the head coach at both Stanford and with

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Speaker 1: the Kansas City Chiefs. He's still working with the Minnesota

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Speaker 1: Vikings to this day. And I think you're really going

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Speaker 1: to enjoy our conversation tonight with football legend Paul Wigan.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you were to title this gentleman's entire story,

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Speaker 2: it would be a football life. And I think about

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Speaker 2: Paul Wigan, and I think about decades and decades of

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Speaker 2: service and love and passion for this game of football. Paul,

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Speaker 2: thanks for joining us. And I guess it all started

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Speaker 2: back in Modesto, California. And talk about that experience about

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Speaker 2: growing up and how your football career began, because this

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Speaker 2: was the thirties forties. What do you remember about your

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Speaker 2: childhood and all those those years formative years.

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Speaker 3: Well, the thing I remember most about growing up is

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Speaker 3: that I didn't know a lot about football. When I

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Speaker 3: was a kid, we played, but we didn't I thought

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Speaker 3: in those days, I didn't know the difference between offense

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Speaker 3: and defense when I was asked at high school, and

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Speaker 3: you know, and I thought a fullback had to be

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Speaker 3: better than a half back because it was twice as much.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I just had some strange ideas about

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Speaker 3: the game. But I guess I was a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a natural kid for football. And when I started

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Speaker 3: into the game, my dad decided that I should probably

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Speaker 3: tighten up some of my body parts and get ready

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Speaker 3: and build myself up a little bit, so he insisted.

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Speaker 3: And when my dad insisted, I didn't have a choice

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Speaker 3: that I go work in a brickyard and my brother

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Speaker 3: and I handled twenty thousand bricks a day in the brickyard.

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Speaker 3: But it really did help me thin down and become

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Speaker 3: more of an athlete. And in high school I was young.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't play varsity football until I was a junior

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Speaker 3: because in the state of California, you have to be

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Speaker 3: fifteen years old. So I was fourteen and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: play varsity. But I played varsity my last few years

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Speaker 3: and I think in high school I was a decent athlete.

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Speaker 3: I was young. If I were a good player at

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Speaker 3: any place in my life, I probably was. In college

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Speaker 3: I got the pro. There were some people a little

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Speaker 3: different than those guys that I was playing against and

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Speaker 3: with at Stanford, and so it was different. But that

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Speaker 3: was the story. I never thought, you know, as a

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Speaker 3: young kid, that I ever had a goal that I

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Speaker 3: was going to be in college as a football player

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Speaker 3: or pro as a football player. It just evolved and

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Speaker 3: came and it happened. And fortunately I had some of

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Speaker 3: the things, and Bud Grant and I used to talk

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Speaker 3: about those things from time to time. He told me,

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Speaker 3: he said, well, probably what you had as a young age,

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Speaker 3: you had some instincts related to athletics and that helps you.

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Speaker 3: You know. I just it wasn't It wasn't in my

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Speaker 3: goals structure at all. It was it just ended up.

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Speaker 3: I took each step at a time, and pretty soon

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Speaker 3: it was all over. And I hadn't just played eleven

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Speaker 3: years for the Cleveland Brown, so it was it was

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Speaker 3: really neat life for me.

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Speaker 1: And Paul, You've had, I mean, you've had the unbelievable

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Speaker 1: experience with football as far as just you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: growing up playing it, then at every level, and then

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Speaker 1: turning around and coaching it at every level. And you've

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Speaker 1: been around this game for what's seventy about seventy years?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: What do you take away from this game? What is

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Speaker 1: this game? I think for our listeners, what has the

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Speaker 1: game taught you about life? What message would you like

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Speaker 1: to put out there and leave for for everyone else

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Speaker 1: who has a dream of of playing this game, whether

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Speaker 1: it be high school, college or at a professional level.

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Speaker 3: I think for me, it was the camaraderie of the

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Speaker 3: being with the players that I played with. You know,

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Speaker 3: I I had. I had the benefit of crossing path

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Speaker 3: with some great players in my life. You know, you

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Speaker 3: could probably call me a coat tailor because I you

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Speaker 3: know the names like coaching with Bud What a great

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Speaker 3: time in my life that was, Or coaching John Elway

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Speaker 3: at Stanford, or playing and being a rookie with Jim Brown,

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Speaker 3: playing for Paul Brown. I mean, Paul Brown was People

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Speaker 3: today they don't know Paul Brown from Adam, but Paul

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Speaker 3: Brown was some kind of a football coach. I want

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Speaker 3: to tell you that. It is unbelievable. And so I

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Speaker 3: had the benefit. I really had a lifetime benefit of

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Speaker 3: special people in my life. But again it's I was

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Speaker 3: there with them, so it's them, not me, But but

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Speaker 3: it was I sure had that experience.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the way I listening to you talk, it's

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Speaker 1: it's humility is one thing that you definitely take away

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Speaker 1: because you look at the you look at your resume,

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Speaker 1: you look at your career and all the things that

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Speaker 1: you've done. But yet you know, the main thing for

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Speaker 1: you is just the folks that were around you, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and the humility with which you speak of

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Speaker 1: all these things. I mean, these are all things that

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Speaker 1: you've done. But at the same time, it's it's amazing

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Speaker 1: to hear just it was still the team. It was

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Speaker 1: still my teammates, it was everybody else around me.

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Speaker 3: And like I said, I think being part of a

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Speaker 3: team really does elevate so many things in your life.

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Speaker 3: You know, I still communicate with some guys I play

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Speaker 3: with at Stanford. That's a lotow that's a long time ago,

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Speaker 3: because there's there's not many of them still living, to

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Speaker 3: be honest with you. So that's that's life. And yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I would say I wouldn't trade my life for anybody

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Speaker 3: I really it's what I wanted to do. I didn't

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Speaker 3: know that when I was sixteen, but it's sure it

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Speaker 3: grows on you.

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Speaker 2: We're talking with Paul Wigan, seven decades plus, many with

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Speaker 2: the Minnesota Vikings organization in a lot of different capacities.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the Cleveland Browns, and I have to go

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Speaker 2: back to one name you mentioned with Jim Brown, because

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Speaker 2: he's such a mythic figure and people read about him

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Speaker 2: in NFL history books now and and we watched them

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Speaker 2: in the movies a little bit. But what was that

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Speaker 2: experience like because he is still arguably the greatest running

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Speaker 2: back of all time?

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Speaker 3: And did you sense that I have to I have

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Speaker 3: to believe he is. I mean, at a time he

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Speaker 3: was two hundred and thirty two pounds. That as a

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Speaker 3: running back, you know in that time, if and could

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Speaker 3: he could run with power, he could run with elusiveness,

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Speaker 3: He had great vision, he had hands, he could block,

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Speaker 3: not didn't particularly like to, but could uh he could

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Speaker 3: do anything athletically. I saw him go bowl one night.

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Speaker 3: We went a bunch of us went over one training

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Speaker 3: camp to a bowling alley about five miles away, and

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Speaker 3: he beat everybody. And I don't know where lacrosse player too.

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Speaker 3: I know, yeah, he changed the game. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you know that or not. He took the whatever

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Speaker 3: they call the ball or whatever it is and wicket

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Speaker 3: wicket and put the wicket against his chest and just

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Speaker 3: ran over people and went and threw it in the basket.

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Speaker 3: So they changed the game. He was, he was, I'm

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Speaker 3: telling you he was a man and and you know

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Speaker 3: and and uh he even dressed like a champion. Everything

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Speaker 3: had to be just right. And when he went, when

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Speaker 3: he walked on the field, you knew you had one

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Speaker 3: of the great players in the world on your football team.

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Speaker 2: Another another teammate, close friend of yours for many many years,

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Speaker 2: and biking fans certainly familiar with them. And start out

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Speaker 2: with the Cleveland Browns, Jim Marshall and special man for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, including yourself. And the fact that

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Speaker 2: he's not in the Hall of Fame is to me

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest injustices I've ever seen because of

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Speaker 2: his stature and everything that he accumulated itself. He could

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Speaker 2: speak to relationship with the one and only captain of

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Speaker 2: the Minnesota Vikings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he should. If you know, if the category

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Speaker 3: is Hall of Fame. He should be in the Hall

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Speaker 3: of Fame. I mean I when I came, when I

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Speaker 3: went from a player to going directly to coaching with

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Speaker 3: the forty nine ers, I got I thought I knew

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Speaker 3: everything I needed to know about pastors, and I found

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Speaker 3: out I didn't know hardly anything. And so what I

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Speaker 3: did is I was looking for players and looking for

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Speaker 3: common denominators of successful pass rushing, and I concluded that

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Speaker 3: he was the best natural pass rusher that I looked

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Speaker 3: at him all and I looked at I'm Merlin Olsen's

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Speaker 3: and all of the great ones of that era, and

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Speaker 3: they all had different attributes and different ways of doing things.

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Speaker 3: But just just to put that guy on the field

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Speaker 3: and turn him on while was he a great football player,

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Speaker 3: and not because I played with him. He and I

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Speaker 3: were there only there together for a little over the year,

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Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't that long. But he was so

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Speaker 3: many things. You know, you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: things in football that aren't just that you see on Sunday.

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Speaker 3: They're the things you see or you hear about, or

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Speaker 3: things that go on in a locker room, or things

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Speaker 3: that tie a team together. And he was all of

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Speaker 3: those things. And I don't know why anybody who does

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Speaker 3: the evaluation of the Hall of Fame can overlook Jim

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Speaker 3: Marshall because he was he was a great player. He

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Speaker 3: was a great one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is amazing in listening to you talk

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Speaker 1: about that in the guys that revolutionize the game, you

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Speaker 1: think Jim is absolutely, absolutely one of those guys that

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Speaker 1: did that. And so the recognition, you know, needs to

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Speaker 1: be there. And I don't know, we can't. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's Fim. Rosie's got enough money maybe to

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Speaker 1: get something done, but I don't know what you can do.

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Speaker 2: It's unbelievabs anything we can do right now other than

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Speaker 2: I hope and keep our fingers crossed that someday that

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Speaker 2: the common sense will prevail and Jim will take us

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Speaker 2: rightful place in the can't ohio.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting because I can't. I can't find

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Speaker 3: the reason why he's not there, but it is. It's

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Speaker 3: it's the little world we're sitting in here in this

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Speaker 3: studio is a little different than the world out there.

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Speaker 3: So who knows.

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Speaker 1: Stick around for more school stories presented by three, the

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Speaker 1: official science partner of the Minnesota Vikings We'll be back

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Speaker 1: with more from Paul Wigan right after this. Many local

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Speaker 1: families cannot afford the high cost of food, gas, and groceries.

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Speaker 1: You can help by donating to the Salvation Army this

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Speaker 1: holiday season. Give now at Salvation Army North dot org.

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Speaker 1: Together we can love beyond. Welcome back to tonight's edition

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Speaker 1: of school Stories, presented by three M, the official science

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Speaker 1: partner of the Minnesota Vikings. From the field to the

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Speaker 1: roof and everywhere in between. Three M, the official science

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Speaker 1: partner of the Minnesota Vikings, is here. Visit Vikings dot

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Speaker 1: com slash school Science to learn more. Now let's get

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Speaker 1: back into our conversation with Paul Wigan. Now, Paul, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned this little world that we're currently sitting, and you've

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Speaker 1: seen this organization obviously evolved over the years, just from

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Speaker 1: the size and the players and to the coaches and

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Speaker 1: to the buildings, the facilities, the stadiums. What do you

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Speaker 1: think of the game today?

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Speaker 3: Just?

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Speaker 1: I mean just where it is now and where you

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Speaker 1: think it might be headed?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's I just I just finished a book called

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Speaker 3: The League. I don't know if any of you have

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Speaker 3: read that, but it was an interesting book because for

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Speaker 3: me I wanted to read it because it tells about

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Speaker 3: It tells about when the game got underway to a

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Speaker 3: certain point. It got to about where I started. But

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Speaker 3: I get to know a lot of the you know,

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Speaker 3: I crossed paths with some of those names and so forth.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I look at this building and you

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Speaker 3: compare it with the building that I had in mid

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the ghetto of Cleveland. We had,

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Speaker 3: we've done. I can remember doing this. I can remember

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Speaker 3: spreading across the whole team thirty eight or forty two

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Speaker 3: or whatever it was, across the field, going to walking

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Speaker 3: the whole field, picking up broken glass because people broke

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Speaker 3: glass to you know. I could remember going to a

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Speaker 3: shower it had it had six shower heads for them.

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Speaker 3: Didn't work, you know, and it didn't matter. You could

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Speaker 3: You just lined up and took a shower when your

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Speaker 3: turn came and it was it was uh and no

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Speaker 3: one worried about that. Yet that could no more happen

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Speaker 3: for the Wolfs here in Minnesota. If the shower breaks,

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Speaker 3: fix it and there just turn it off and go

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Speaker 3: to the next month. In those days, So yeah, I

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Speaker 3: can see an evolution of the game. I don't know

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Speaker 3: much further it can go. I think every thought is

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Speaker 3: given to how the game is perceived by fans, and

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Speaker 3: they adjust the games, the competition, the competition committee, the facilities.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look at the place we're in here. I

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Speaker 3: mean it's uh, no stone left unturned in this building.

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Speaker 3: And we got the players were in one side in

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Speaker 3: the room and the coaches were on the other side

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Speaker 3: in the room. And that's the way it was. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then look at the technology now, right, Just the

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Speaker 1: amount of information you can learn and know about an opponent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And I've evolved with that a little bit. I

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Speaker 3: mean I started from scratch. I can remember us taking

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Speaker 3: the sixteen millimeter film and tearing in half and putting them,

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Speaker 3: wrapping around, putting a paper clip, and then hanging it

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Speaker 3: on a clothes hangar.

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Speaker 1: Which is where the phrase cutups came from. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: so he's called cut ups.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's how we did it in those days.

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Speaker 3: And just happy to be happy to be there. You know.

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Speaker 2: We're talking to Paul Wiggan, who's been involved with Vikings

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Speaker 2: for many, many decades in one capacity or another, including

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Speaker 2: working for both Bud Grant, working with Bud Grant and

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Speaker 2: Jerry Burns. As head coaches talk about the contrast and personalities. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but what did you take from those two gentlemen in

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Speaker 2: their knowledge of football? But they're mostly they're not their

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Speaker 2: ability to relate to their players.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I can remember I can remember

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Speaker 3: the first meeting I went to in the players. They

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Speaker 3: were a hardy bunch of guys in those days, and

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Speaker 3: they were laughing and having a good time talking and

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Speaker 3: the minute Bud walked into the room, it was dead

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Speaker 3: silence and everybody snapped their heads towards Bud. I thought

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Speaker 3: to myself, I've always believed that command is the most

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Speaker 3: important factor coach in being a successful coach, and I

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Speaker 3: think Bud had more command than I think anybody I've

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Speaker 3: ever been with. And I even think at times about

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Speaker 3: how a city was lucky enough to have a Bud Grant.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's how big I thought he was. And

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Speaker 3: I really admired him, And as I've always said, I

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Speaker 3: wish I could have had him as an influence at

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Speaker 3: a much earlier stage in my life. And so that

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Speaker 3: was But I like Tim Burnsey's a different deal. But

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Speaker 3: you know what he was, he was lovable. We still

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Speaker 3: get together with Marlon. He's gone, as you know, but

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Speaker 3: but his wife is. Every time she's in town, we

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Speaker 3: go to dinner, we go to the place that he

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Speaker 3: always wanted to go because they had lemon chicken. I

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Speaker 3: don't know why lemon chicken. But that's burnsy, you know.

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Speaker 3: And he was the he was burnsy. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how you.

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Speaker 2: Get and innovative offensive, well.

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Speaker 3: One of the most he's the He's West Coast offense

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Speaker 3: is not but it's not Bill wallsh It's it's it's

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Speaker 3: burnsy and uh. And he had great coaches here at

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Speaker 3: times while I was here, came to visit with him

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Speaker 3: to learn from him. It was like a guru. But

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Speaker 3: if you were at another environment, he's he's he could

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Speaker 3: be all almost a spectrum of things.

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Speaker 1: So what what about burnsy though? You think made him innovative?

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Speaker 1: Is that just something? Is that just a quality that

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Speaker 1: he had like he was.

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Speaker 3: Born with because he was not a great. He was

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Speaker 3: not a great. He was an undersized guy at Michigan

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Speaker 3: and he played he played on the watered down team,

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Speaker 3: whatever that was. I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: They call it in Michigan. It's still Michigan. We're still

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Speaker 1: water down.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but anyway, he was he was special and I

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Speaker 3: I and uh, I think everybody that played for Burns

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Speaker 3: loved him and will will always be thankful that they

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Speaker 3: had a chance to be part of a team that

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Speaker 3: he was directing. Yeah, I don't know how far it

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Speaker 3: would have gone, but hang, if he wasn't fun to

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Speaker 3: be enough staff meeting with.

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Speaker 2: My goodness, Paul, I mean for you know, over seven

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Speaker 2: decades uh coaching involved with football? What what are you

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Speaker 2: most proud of? What?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 2: What do you want to be remembered for as as

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Speaker 2: your legacy in this game?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm not going to be remembered as a successful

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Speaker 3: head coach because I tried it twice and they changed

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Speaker 3: the luck on me both times.

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Speaker 2: You're not alone in that capacity.

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Speaker 3: But uh uh you know, Uh, I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: think I had I think I've had a positive influence

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Speaker 3: in the lives of the players that I've been coaching.

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Speaker 3: I coached some defensive linemen here with Doman Millard and

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Speaker 3: Henry Henry Thomas and Johnny Randalls. Johnny Randall is another one,

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Speaker 3: and I mean these those guys were.

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Speaker 1: By the way, by the way, Randall.

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Speaker 3: And uh, you know, just to be in a in

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Speaker 3: a meeting room with those guys. I mean, they weren't

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Speaker 3: going to you wouldn't want them to organize the next

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Speaker 3: uh whatever. But from the standpoint of when on Sunday,

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Speaker 3: when it came time, those guys were ready to go,

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Speaker 3: and it was fun to coach, and I could tell

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Speaker 3: I could write a book almost about just the things

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Speaker 3: that went on in the meetings that were that would

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Speaker 3: make you laugh and sometimes even probably make you cry.

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Speaker 3: But they were special guys. And you know, I think

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Speaker 3: that's where I was at my best. And I should

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Speaker 3: have known that that I was better at coaching my

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Speaker 3: gang and not trying to be in charge of a

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Speaker 3: bunch of guys like a head coach has to be.

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Speaker 3: I think a head coach of the command thing. I

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Speaker 3: don't know what the factors were, but I was the

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Speaker 3: happiest in my life when I was coaching what was

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Speaker 3: at that time called my gang.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating. Yeah, well, Paul, we appreciate it so much, and

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Speaker 2: great catching up with you in school stories tonight. Let's

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Speaker 2: do it again soon and you got a million stories

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Speaker 2: and I know the fans love you and all of them.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: Well. Mark was enjoyable to be.

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Speaker 1: Thanks thanks again and to Paul Wigan for joining the

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Speaker 1: show tonight. It's always great to hear about his incredible

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Speaker 1: experiences in football for over seven decades. So it's just

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Speaker 1: an amazing The guy's been around forever, knows so much

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Speaker 1: about the game, just as insight is unbelievable. But Jay, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: the buye's over. We've been waiting forever for it. We

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Speaker 1: finally get to it now we're playing the Raiders. And

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Speaker 1: with everything that happened, I think during the bye weekend,

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Speaker 1: with the Packers winning beating the Kansas City Chiefs at home,

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Speaker 1: that race for the wild card last remaining are those

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Speaker 1: you know, five, six and seven. It's tightening up.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: The good news for the Vikings is that your destiny's

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Speaker 1: in your own hands. You go ahead and win out

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Speaker 1: the rest of the season, or win the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of in the next four for sure are the big ones,

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Speaker 1: because that last one in Detroit might be all done

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Speaker 1: up by the time we get there. Next on the

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Speaker 1: docket the Las Vegas Raiders. Yeah, and you're looking at

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Speaker 1: a team that's been through let's say it's been through

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Speaker 1: a lot. The background here is relevant Josh McDaniels came

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Speaker 1: out this season as the head coach. He's been replaced

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Speaker 1: by Antonio Peers. They're trying to trying to right their

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Speaker 1: ship as best they can, so it's going to be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how we perform. I think the best

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Speaker 1: news for us and our defense is going against a

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Speaker 1: ricky quarterback and Aidan O'Connell, and then again you have

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Speaker 1: the return of Justin Jefferson, which fingers crossed that's a

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Speaker 1: huge shot in the arm to this offensive you know,

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Speaker 1: offensive team.

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Speaker 4: For sure, and I think, you know, getting a league

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Speaker 4: wide superstar back on that offense, and you just feel

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Speaker 4: like in some of those previous games here, you're trying

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Speaker 4: to figure out, you know, who's going to be the target,

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Speaker 4: what's going to happen. I think a guy like JJ

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Speaker 4: is such a focal point, especially defensively for the Raiders,

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Speaker 4: They're gonna have to pay so much attention to him.

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Speaker 4: It might help free up the other guys to on offense.

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Speaker 4: So for me, it's just his impact is exponential, and

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Speaker 4: I'm really looking forward to getting him back on the

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Speaker 4: field this week for the Vikings.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Jay, we're you know, we're hoping that JJ does

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Speaker 1: give us that shot in the arm. You should be healthy.

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Speaker 1: It's been eight weeks, so hopefully am string is ready

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Speaker 1: to go. So the Vikings say, yeah, they're looking forward

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Speaker 1: to getting back on track this Sunday down at a

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Speaker 1: Legion Stadium. It's a three zero five kickoff locally here

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Speaker 1: on Fox. You can also catch the game right here

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Speaker 1: all across the Minnesota Vikings radio network, so be sure

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Speaker 1: to tune into your local listings for details. All right,

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Speaker 1: thank you Jay, and thanks again to Paul Wigan for

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Speaker 1: joining the show tonight. And thank you fans for tuning

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Speaker 1: into another edition of Skull Stories presented by three M,

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Speaker 1: the official science partner of the Minnesota Vikings. We'll see

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Speaker 1: you all again next week.