1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by HKX, Asia's ETF marketplace. Well, 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: you'll find a gateway to liquidity and a diverse selection 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: of opportunities across asset classes, sectors and themes in Asia 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: and beyond. Search HKX to learn more. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good nights. Wherever 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: you are in this vast, beautiful planet. You're joining us 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: from Welcome to Tiger Money, a Bloomberg podcast about all 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: things investing with a twist on exchange traded funds in 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: Asia and beyond. I'm your host David Ingless, Chief Markets 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: Editor for the Asia Pacific at Bloomberg TV. I'm Asto, 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 2: the hosts of the China Show. In My co pilots 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: in this journey as Rebecca sim She's head of Asia 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: Pacific TTF research at Bloomberg Intelligence. The conversation, of course, 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: is strictly non confidential, So if you like what you here, 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: do not forget to subscribe to share and so also look. 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: The Middle East has been a very hot spot for investors, 17 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 3: and specifically Soaudi Arabia. In Hong Kong, We've had the 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: largest ever Saudi Arabia ETF list globally last year and 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: most recently cross listed into mainland China. Let's bring in 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: Lee Hodkinson, the group chief strategy officer from Saudi tadal 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 3: Wil Group, who has thirty five years of capital market 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 3: experience and has worked across Europe, America, China, Russia, India 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 3: and now Saudi Arabia. Thank you so much for joining 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: us here today on Tiger Money. 25 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 4: Thank you for the opportunity. 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Lee, Well, I'm sure in the thirty five years 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: have been in the industry, I've seen massive change. You know, 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: Increasingly we hear a lot more and more about Middle East, 29 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: more and more about Saudi Arabia, And I'm wondering in 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 2: your job, what do you think investors do not get 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: about Saudi? What is happening and where do you think 32 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 2: this story goes? 33 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, it's an incredible story. I think regionally as 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 4: much as in Saudi, But what's happening in Saudi Araybray's 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 4: really astonishing. During my time y s Urinex, I spent 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 4: a lot of time with offices in Asia, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: and I spent probably at least four sometimes six trips 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 4: a year into China, during those years from sort of 39 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 4: twenty twelve onwards, as we were really capturing outflow and 40 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 4: business coming from the mainland in China, and what I 41 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 4: saw there was, you know, this astonishing transformation of China 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 4: into an enormous economy and a global player. And I 43 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 4: always felt that I'd missed out a little bit by 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 4: not being on the ground permanently and really being part 45 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 4: of it. And so I took my job two years 46 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 4: ago almost of the day actually, I took my job 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 4: in Saudi because I really felt it was a genuine 48 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 4: opportunity for me to have a front row seat at 49 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 4: what is maybe the last transformation of a G twenty nation. 50 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 4: I mean, it's an astonishing opportunity, and you know, hopefully 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: in my own small way, I can shape a lift 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 4: little bit of that and sort of help make things 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 4: bigger and better. And what's going on on the ground, 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 4: like China went through, is just massive progress. READD to 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: me feels a lot like Sanjen did fifteen years ago. 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 4: There's a new road, there's a new bridge, there's a 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 4: new building that there are and I think fourteen Mechelan 58 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 4: style restaurants opening this year alone. I went to the 59 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 4: first opera in Saudi a couple of months ago. There's 60 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 4: fantastic football, there's tennis as formula one. I mean, the 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 4: sort of social change and transformation is incredible. Seventy percent 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 4: of the country are under thirty five, so there's this 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 4: enormous sort of youthful energy and entrepreneurship. So the social 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 4: side of thing is incredible. From a business and commercial perspective, 65 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 4: there are enormous opportunities in multiple sectors. Tourism I think 66 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 4: is going to be explosive over the coming years. We 67 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 4: obviously have the new read Air. There are lots and 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 4: lots of super five star hotels opening on the West coast. 69 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 4: Healthcare is an enormous sector, mining metals, real estate, capital markets, 70 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 4: you know, close to my heart. We've seen transformation of 71 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 4: the Saudi Todaur Wall Group and the sort of core 72 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 4: exchange five or six years ago be the largest regional 73 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: player but not particularly relevant on a global stage. And today, 74 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 4: depending on what the dollars doing, we're eighth or ninth 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 4: largest equity market on the planet. And you know our 76 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 4: IPO pipeline. I think we have over fifty applicants this year. 77 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 4: I think twenty three or twenty four already done. Average 78 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 4: daily training volumes are enormous. Every bank, broker, asset manager 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 4: you know cycling through my officers are setting up in Saudi. 80 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 4: It's incredible. I have to say. The challenge I think 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 4: in capital markets is focus, because you can't do everything 82 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 4: all the time, all at once. So it's really about 83 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 4: prior tization and focus. And the Saudi authorities under Vision 84 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 4: twenty thirty you've got a Financial Services Development Plan which 85 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 4: sort of sets out those priorities and progress is phenomenal. 86 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 4: So I think the opportunity for investors in some respects 87 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 4: is only just beginning. Ten percent of our market is 88 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 4: owned by foreign investors, twenty percent of daily training volume 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 4: comes from Asian investors, so there's a whole new stream 90 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 4: of activity. And Rebecca, you refer to the ETF deal 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 4: in China, I think that's only just going to continue 92 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 4: to grow. 93 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: To your point, the Kingdom wants to achieve not just 94 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: a lot, but a lot on many many fronts. I 95 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: guess the next question I have is how does the 96 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: exchange How does the group your group get involved in 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: this change specifically, I. 98 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: Mean, essentially we're at the heart of the capital markets 99 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 4: revolution in the Kingdom. You know, really our strategy falls 100 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 4: along two tracks. The first is to make sure that 101 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: we have efficient and liquid markets for issuers and investors 102 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 4: that help drive forward the Vision twenty thirty action plan. 103 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 4: And alongside that, we've got a sort of more self 104 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 4: deterministic goal of growing through diversification as a listed company ourselves. 105 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 4: And that's why you see us making investments into the 106 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 4: Dubai Mercantile Exchange, which will become in September the Golf 107 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,119 Speaker 4: Mercantile Exchange. That's why we've acquired majority shareholding in direct FN. 108 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: And you know, we're really starting to broaden our horizons 109 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 4: data analytics indices really to start building out a powerful 110 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 4: globally relevant franchise beyond the core equity business. 111 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: Right, Certainly, some of the things that we noticed from 112 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: outside looking in. You obviously have one very big company listing. 113 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: You have valuations that are either extremely stretched one side, 114 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: extremely cheap the other. The perception isn't correct me if 115 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: I'm wrong. A lot of the flow is driven by 116 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: retail investors, and that might or may or may not 117 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: chime in me keep foreign investors that you need away 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: until part of the piping is sort of cleaned up 119 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: and replenished and upgraded. Is that an issue that you're 120 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: aware of. Is that an issue at all that you're 121 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: looking to address? 122 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 4: For sure, it's changing, David. You know, once upon a 123 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 4: time the proportion of retail training was over seventy percent. 124 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: Now it's sort of around sixty percent, and there are 125 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 4: days where you know there's an equilibrium. We've spent a 126 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 4: lot of time, money, and effort on building out what 127 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 4: I describe as the internationalization, institutionalization, and electronification of our marketplace. 128 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 4: Through our data center, we now have you know, significant 129 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 4: number of international liquidity providers. They're accounting for twenty percent 130 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 4: of market activity. If you think about those firms an 131 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 4: electronically generated business in your accounts of sixty to sixty 132 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 4: five percent of average daily equity markets in read, it's 133 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 4: about twenty percent. We've got a long way to go, 134 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 4: but that's changing, you know, literally every month. So we're 135 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 4: seeing a tremendous amount of electronification, institutionalization, and internationalization coming 136 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: to the market. And look, it won't change completely overnight, 137 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 4: but there are very very strong signals that that's now 138 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 4: the sort of makeup of the liquidity on the exchange 139 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 4: is changing dramatically, so. 140 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,599 Speaker 3: We speak about the Tadawil Group. You guys are a 141 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: publicly listed company with four main subsidiaries which are at 142 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: the Saudi Exchange, the Security Is Clearing Center Company, the 143 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 3: Security Is Depository Center and Vami. There are a lot 144 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: of partnership that you guys have. Specifically, the Saudi Exchange 145 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 3: has joined other international exchanges. In Hong Kong, you are 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: considered a recognized stock exchange as well as some in 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 3: mainland China. Could you share with us any insights on 148 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: how did this happen, what the background is, and what 149 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 3: are your thoughts. 150 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: Sure, you know, finance traditionally has been an American business, 151 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 4: if you like, or a Western business in large part. 152 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 4: But what we've seen over the last decade, and as 153 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: I learned from my time in Asia with NYC Eurinext, 154 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 4: the flows coming out of Asia, China, I think India 155 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: is really starting to emerge, you know, obviously Singapore, Hong Kong. 156 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 4: These flows are really really significant, and I think what 157 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 4: we've done with our colleagues in China is to really 158 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 4: begin the process of awakening and marketing the Saudi equity 159 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 4: story to Chinese investors via these ETFs, and that came 160 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 4: about through mutual discussions. Exchange world is quite a small world, 161 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 4: and we all meet each other fairly often, but in 162 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 4: many respects, it was a no brainer. Connecting Chinese and 163 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 4: Saudi investment flows bilaterally. Not only is good for the 164 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 4: exchanges and good for the invest it's also good for 165 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 4: the liquidity of the listed companies. So I think you 166 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: can expect a lot more from us and will work 167 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 4: very hard with our Chinese counterparts on those relationships because 168 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: the initial success of those products been pretty good. I 169 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 4: think there's another angle as well, which relates to our 170 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 4: thirty two point six percent investment in the Dubai Mercantile Exchange, 171 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 4: and that is that the oil product, the Omani oil product. 172 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 4: The clients are in the East of Suez, so most 173 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 4: of those clients are in India, Singapore, China, and I'm 174 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 4: off at the end of this month on a client 175 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 4: road show in the mainland, in India and around Asia, 176 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 4: really to just to sort of solidify those relationships with 177 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 4: the major clients, but also to sort of explore new opportunities, 178 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 4: particularly in the asset management area, where you know, I 179 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 4: think there's a tremendous upside opportunity in the Middle East 180 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 4: generally and in Saudi we only have nine ETFs listed 181 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 4: at the moment, there's a tremendous upside. Again, if you 182 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 4: look at how US fund managers use ETFs to gain 183 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 4: access to European markets, still quite fragmented, you know, lots 184 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 4: of different withholding taxes. Clearing ETF as a structure is 185 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 4: a great mechanism to gain access. I see that happening 186 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 4: in the Middle East as well, and as to say, 187 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 4: from a Chinese perspective, from an Asian perspective, more broadly, 188 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 4: there's a lot of interest. 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 5: So let's just jump on what you said. You mentioned 190 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 5: that the Saudi Exchange only has nine ETFs with fifty 191 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 5: four million in assets under management. Of those nine ETFs, 192 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 5: two are tracking US equities and the rest is tracking 193 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 5: Saudi companies. There's a lot of talks about cross listing potential. 194 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 5: You know, you mentioned that Asia was one of the first, 195 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 5: So why Asia as opposed to the US or South America. 196 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 5: We've seen a lot of interest coming out of mainland China, 197 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 5: but cross listing potential, what do you see other opportunities 198 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 5: and what could be the next steps in terms of 199 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 5: collaboration with China. For instance, last year's CSOP launched the 200 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 5: largest ever Saudi Arabia ETF in partnership with the Public 201 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 5: Investment Fund, which is a sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia. 202 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 5: And they've recently signed a m or U with major 203 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 5: Chinese state banks. So what can we expect to happen next. 204 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, I think geographically for a second, read is 205 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: a really well positioned geographical hub to connect East and West, 206 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 4: and you know, the time zones looking to Asia are 207 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 4: quite favorable. And also I think there is an element 208 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 4: of working with the Chinese exchanges and Chinese investors. We're 209 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 4: both doing this for the first time together and we're 210 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 4: not necessarily constrained by legacy. It's quite refreshing for us 211 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 4: to think about creating solutions that make sense for us 212 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: in our regional context. And the same is also true 213 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 4: for our Chinese counterparts. So I think we can work 214 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 4: in a more agile and flexible way because not constrained 215 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 4: by the legacy. I think the other interesting factor is 216 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 4: just the sort of sheer size of investment dollars available 217 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 4: that can come from Chinese investors, from Indian investors, from 218 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: Asian investors very very significant activity, and we see a 219 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: small number of Chinese brokers either opening or looking to 220 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 4: open in the Middle East with read as the hub. 221 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 4: So we're really at the marketing stage. And where could 222 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 4: this go? Well, the answer is the sky's the limit. 223 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: It's really for me more about the priority in the 224 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 4: cadence and the timing. But I think the ties there's 225 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 4: a lot of very very serious interest, and I think 226 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 4: I'm right in saying that China is Saudi's largest bilateral 227 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: trading partner. They'll always be very strong ties with the America, 228 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 4: of course, but this pivot between East and West I 229 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 4: think opens up a number of very important opportunities. We 230 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 4: would definitely like to see more investment coming into the Kingdom. 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 4: ETFs I think provide a really good structure. The idea 232 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 4: of cross listings, the idea of just generally closer time 233 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 4: around investment flows just makes sense for everybody. 234 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 5: So when do you think the first cross listing of 235 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 5: ETFs will happen in Saudi Arabia? 236 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 4: Well, I wish I could give you a straight answer. 237 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's a lot of work going 238 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 4: on between the parties and the regulators. So I think 239 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 4: it will take a while, but it's definitely a priority. 240 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 4: We want to make it happen as soon as we can. 241 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 5: End of year next year. 242 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: I was going to be nice and ask is it 243 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: going to come before the fourth quarter? 244 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 4: But yeah, look, it's on its way, I think, is 245 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: the answer I'd give. 246 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: You, right, And I mean, it's safe to assume that 247 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: both sides want this to happen, and it's simply you know, 248 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: the I would call breocracy, but it's you know, how 249 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: the game is played. That's maybe just determining the timeline. 250 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's often a misunderstanding about these kind 251 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 4: of things that people think, well, both exchanges have an agreement, 252 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 4: so why don't you just cross lists? But actually these 253 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 4: things are underpinned by very robe asked and complex regulatory 254 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 4: relationships because first and foremost, the protection of investors is 255 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 4: critical for both sides, and it's vital that both countries 256 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: get that right before launching product, particularly where you know 257 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 4: there's a retail sensitivity to it. So you know, our 258 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 4: view is that will take a conservative and cautious approach, 259 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 4: but that's okay. People underestimate or they overestimate change in 260 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 4: the short term underestimate it in the long term. So 261 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 4: I think our horizon is sort of through a decade. 262 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 4: Really strategically, these are partnerships with Chinese exchanges that we 263 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 4: want to prosper, you know, we want them to endure 264 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 4: for a long time. It's not just a sort of 265 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 4: fast money thing. It's really about building ties along that 266 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: pivot that give us an enduring and sustainable business. 267 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by hk EX Asia's 268 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: ETF marketplace. You can get exposure to themes ranging from 269 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: AI to virtual assets, small cap to large cap Greater 270 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: China to global search HKX to learn more. 271 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: I remember one of the conversations I had on and 272 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: this was on the TV show also in the podcast, 273 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: so the day that the ETF listed Rebecca and you 274 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: know this of course in shan Jen and we were 275 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: joined on the show subsequently on the podcast by the 276 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: CEO of CSOP and one of the questions I asked 277 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: her was what's the appeal of this product you're putting 278 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: out in the mainland market. And her words, not mine, 279 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: it's the ability and paraphrase, it's ability for mail and 280 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: investors to get exposure to the oil story in Saudi, 281 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: and so I guess, let me building that and ask you, 282 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: running the risk of over simplifying things, what is going 283 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: on beyond oil and its derivative sectors in Saudi? You know, 284 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: what are the opportunities beyond what most people already know? 285 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean how long have we got? I mean 286 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: it's incredible. I think think non oil economy in Saudi 287 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 4: grew by four point six percent last year. Tourism, healthcare, 288 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 4: real estate, mining, metals. There are a number of very 289 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 4: fast growing, very large sectors in the Saudi economy, and 290 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 4: I think when you're launching a new product in a 291 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 4: new jurisdiction, you need to make sure that you're focused 292 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 4: on the area that makes most sense. So if you 293 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: were to stop a Chinese retail investor walking down the 294 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: street in Shanghai, Shenzen and say, other than a Ramco, 295 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 4: what are your favorite picks for Saudi stocks? They wouldn't 296 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 4: have a great answer for you. And the same is 297 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 4: true in reverse. So actually what you need to do 298 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 4: is to start with those sort of let's call it 299 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: brand recognition, and then when you've got that set of relationships, 300 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 4: then you can build out the other products. And that's 301 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 4: very much the plan and that's why you got the 302 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: response you did. Personally, I think tourism just my own 303 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 4: experience to my family traveling around the country. There are 304 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 4: remarkable sites. There are remarkable places in Saudi that the 305 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: world has just not really been exposed to. And as 306 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 4: the new airline gets going, as visitors start coming to 307 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 4: the new hotels and tourism expands, as it is already 308 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: beyond religious tourism, I think that sector is going to 309 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 4: be offering enormous upside. And the numbers are already huge 310 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 4: in terms of tourists coming to the country and growth. 311 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 4: But I see it continuing. And there are a lot 312 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: of big events coming up as well, the Expo, and 313 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 4: I think the Asian Games and hopefully at World Cup 314 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 4: at some point. There are a lot of things going 315 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: on that will bring people to the kingdom. And I 316 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 4: think that there's a runway of growth in tourism alone 317 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 4: for many, many many years to come. I mean, if 318 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 4: you look at the story of say somewhere like Dubai 319 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 4: twenty five thirty years ago, the tourism uptick there has 320 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 4: been phenomenal. I see the same thing happening in React, 321 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 4: if not more, I should say the Kingdom because these 322 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 4: natural wonders, the edge of the world and a and 323 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 4: these kind of places are just incredible. They're incredible. 324 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 2: You know, there are very few places in the world 325 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 2: that have not just a vision, but the resources to 326 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: actually back up trying to move the economy in different directions. 327 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 2: You know, they're versifying away from oil for example, in 328 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: this case. Does it ever occur to you that money's 329 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: an issue? Again, oversimplifying an issue there? People know Saudi 330 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 2: is a very wealthy country. Is money an issue? 331 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 4: Well, I think the perception of Saudi is different from 332 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 4: the reality. I think it would be a mistake for 333 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: international investors listeners to this podcast to be thinking that 334 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 4: there's an unlimited supply of money and money's just thrown around. 335 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 4: That is absolutely not the case. In fact, I would 336 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 4: argue the from my own experience, the way that our 337 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 4: major shareholder is PIF. Our relationship with PIF managed very 338 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 4: very carefully through some very strong connections when we've made acquisitions. 339 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 4: The level of discipline, rigor and governance that we go 340 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: through around valuation, around post merger integration KPIs is gold standard, 341 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 4: and you know, it says good, if not better than 342 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 4: some of the other international organizations I've worked for. So 343 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 4: the main takeaway is investment is made carefully, results are measured. 344 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: Prioritization I think more recently is taking place that can 345 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 4: only be a good thing. And I think any visitor 346 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 4: to Read or the Kingdom generally would see the fruits 347 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: of these investments starting to pay off. And it's coming 348 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 4: through in non oil economy growth. 349 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 5: So in terms of investments paying off, you guys have 350 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 5: recently entered the commodities market great time in coogles up 351 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty percent called so we're almost thirty 352 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 5: percent for our listteners. You may not know that there's 353 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 5: around three hundred billion dollars worth of commodities ETF, with 354 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 5: the Spider Gold ETF being the largest at sixty six billion. 355 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 5: But a fun fact for our listeners is that there's 356 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 5: actually a spider Gold Mini ETF which only charges ten 357 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 5: basis points as opposed to forty basis points. So, Lee, 358 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 5: can you tell us about the commodities market, why you 359 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 5: guys decided to enter this and watch an investors know? 360 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 4: Sure? Remarkably, Saudi is the only G twenty nation without 361 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 4: commodities exchange, and you could argue in some respect that's true. Yeah, 362 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 4: in some respects it should be the first. So when 363 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 4: I arrived a couple of years ago and started working 364 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 4: with my colleagues on strategy, it felt very much to 365 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 4: me that we had an opportunity in the commodity space, 366 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: in the context of future oriented growth and sustainable products, 367 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 4: to position ourselves as a regional player with global relevance. 368 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 4: If you think about products like hydrogen green metals, all 369 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 4: of these new few products are going to become the 370 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 4: commodities of the future, battery metals. I felt that we 371 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 4: had a significant opportunity and a real world economy set 372 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 4: of actors that are incredibly powerful and important on the 373 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 4: global stage. The question for us then was well, how 374 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 4: do we realize that? How do we get into that business? 375 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 4: And we chose, and I'm very glad we did. We 376 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 4: chose to partner with CME and the Omanian Dubai Sovereign 377 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 4: Wealth Funds to acquire a stake in Dubai Mercantile Exchange, 378 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 4: just a long history of being the largest physically delivered 379 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 4: crude old contract with a focus on East of Suez clients, 380 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 4: and really our game plan there is to work with 381 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: those world class partners on broadening that business away from 382 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 4: just pure play oil into other asset classes as well. 383 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 4: And I think there are absolutely natural links, as Rebecca 384 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 4: pointed out, between pure play commodity business and the listed 385 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 4: companies that we have on our market and those that 386 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 4: we're trying to attract, and also the ETF space. I mean, 387 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 4: I think mini products in the region, mini gold, mini silver, 388 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 4: even you know, mini oil products I think have a 389 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 4: very very big future and will be very very interesting 390 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 4: in years to come in the ETF space. 391 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: What moves do you see yourself and the group making 392 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: in the years ahead along those lines of building your 393 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: commodity footprint? Is it the partnerships you laid out? Do 394 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: you see yourself building something from scratch? Are you looking 395 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: to at some point directly acquire some assets for example? 396 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think M and A will play a bigger 397 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 4: role in our future than it has done in our 398 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: past because what we need to do essentially is to 399 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 4: develop non transaction revenues and higher quality earnings. So the 400 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 4: challenge that all exchanges have is building out cyclical downside 401 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 4: protection when interest rates go up and there's rotation into 402 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 4: fixed income products, your equity market calls off, how do 403 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 4: you build out a sustainable, predictable economics. So we're looking 404 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 4: across the derivative space, data analytics, in the post trade 405 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 4: arena as well in terms of collateral management, stopping learning, 406 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: all of these things. We've got a defined growth plan, 407 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 4: a lot of organic activities going on, and we'll look 408 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 4: for investments, partnerships and acquisitions where they help accelerate our 409 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 4: strategic plans. We won't be looking for M and A 410 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 4: particularly to sort of bulk up and just get bigger 411 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 4: for the sake of it. It's really about how we 412 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 4: bring competency, capability and capacity to the Kingdom to help 413 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 4: drive all of that transformation. And that was behind our 414 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 4: investment in direct FN, the technology company. You know, fantastic 415 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 4: low cost development centers in places like Sri Lanka and Pakistan, 416 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 4: really really good business diversification, in partnership with seeing ME 417 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 4: and others in commodities. You know, we'll do more of 418 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 4: those things, but they'll be sort of surgical and carefully 419 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 4: thought through, lots of discipline and rigor around value and 420 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 4: post merger integration. But there'll be a lot more of that, 421 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 4: I think than you've seen in the past. And that's 422 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 4: really about us living up to our ambition of becoming 423 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 4: a top three player. That was the I think in 424 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 4: an interview with Bloomberg, I think the Crown Prints a 425 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 4: couple of years ago said that, you know, you had 426 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 4: a big ambition for the Saudi Tadawl Group and the 427 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 4: Kingdom generally to be a top three player in financial market. 428 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 4: So it'll take us while to get there, but we're 429 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 4: well on that path and there's a very very exciting 430 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 4: journey out of us. 431 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: And I'm curious who you see as your major competitors 432 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: direct competitors, is you know, does that even you lose 433 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: sleep over that? You know, there are a few names 434 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 2: that come to mind when you go, Okay, they're doing 435 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: something better. We need to upper a game. 436 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 4: Yes, a great question. So I don't lose any sleep 437 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 4: over our core markets, franchise, the tail wins from the 438 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 4: transformation and the financial services development, the underlying economy. I 439 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 4: think we'll underpin that business quite nice for the years 440 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 4: to come, and they'll be better years than others and 441 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 4: bumps in the road, but fundamentally I think that's I 442 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 4: feel very good about that business. Where we need to 443 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 4: compete and where we need to fight for businesses in 444 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 4: these other growth areas debt markets and commodities and indices 445 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 4: and data and analytics and post trade, and there I think, 446 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 4: in many cases, the boundaries of competition in modern business 447 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 4: of blur, and it can often be a coopetition model 448 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 4: where you may have a client even that is a 449 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 4: core client in one business, a competitor in another, a 450 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 4: partner in another, and you know, somewhere else in between 451 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 4: and something else. And I think that's all about navigating 452 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 4: the landscape. So if we look at our relationship with 453 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 4: the Chinese exchanges, you know our interests are completely aligned. 454 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 4: They want to create more business and more products and 455 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 4: more investors for their markets, and the same is true 456 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 4: for us. So I think we're very very well positioned 457 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 4: in our core market, think we're very well positioned it regionally. 458 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 4: But where we're going to have to compete more aggressively 459 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 4: as we expand in the years ahead will be in 460 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 4: the international environment. And I think that's where you're seemore 461 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 4: m and a you'll seemore partnership, you'll see more collaboration, 462 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 4: and particularly interestingly, I think is now many of the 463 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 4: GCC nations, the Asian nations, are really becoming quite powerful 464 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 4: on the global stage and are really maturing now into 465 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: independent actors in terms of investment, thesis and flows and activity. 466 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 4: Back to my point about READ, we can be a 467 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 4: very compelling neutral pivot between East and West in that regard. 468 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 4: So I don't think it's fanciful in years to come 469 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 4: to consider READ and Sally to NOBAL Group as a 470 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 4: competitor to the European Exchanges for capital raising, for example. 471 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 4: I think that's quite possible. It's not something that people 472 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 4: would have thought conceivable five ten years ago, but I 473 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 4: think it very much is now and why not. You know, 474 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 4: the world is changing, and I think we're not unrealistic 475 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 4: and we're not over ambitious. I think we're quite cautious 476 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 4: and conservative, but we think we can make a difference 477 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 4: on the world stage, and you know, that's what we've 478 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: said about doing. And I think Asia plays a very 479 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 4: very significant part in that, and there are all those 480 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 4: sort of demographic and economic arguments for that. But I 481 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 4: think this sort of spirit of coming together and doing 482 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 4: new things for new communities is really really powerful, and 483 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 4: I'm very very bullish about the future. 484 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: You're about to embark on this trip to various parts 485 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: of Asia. You've mentioned that at the very top of 486 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: the podcast. What would you consider the most low hanging 487 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: through the biggest wins. After you conclude that trip, what 488 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: do you want to go home with? 489 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 4: I mean, probably a couple of things. I think the 490 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 4: first thing is from the commodity perspective, we want to 491 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: make sure that those major actors in that game understand 492 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 4: our ration now for making the investment and the change 493 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 4: to golf marke and tile exchange, and what our collective 494 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 4: plans are and where we can help them solve real 495 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 4: economy problems you risk transfer and all of those things, 496 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 4: and to really listen to what their needs are, how 497 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: can we help, what could we do to help them 498 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 4: grow and generate returns. I think the second thing is 499 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: really selling Saudi story, which is part of why I'm 500 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 4: really grateful that you've given us the opportunity today, because 501 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 4: we need to get the story out there on a 502 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 4: global basis, that Saudi is transforming, that the results are real, 503 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 4: that the opportunities are significant, because you know, in some 504 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 4: respects that's a never ending story, right, You've always got 505 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 4: to be selling. But I'm really looking forward to the 506 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 4: opportunity in the mainland Hong Kong and India and Singapore, 507 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 4: to really be meeting with those actors, whether they're in 508 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 4: the commodity space, whether they're intermedrias, whether they're asset managers, 509 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 4: to really be selling the story and finding where the 510 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 4: intersection in sort of mutual ben it is. And we've 511 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 4: done a few of these things. You know, we had 512 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 4: the Capital Market Forum in partnership with the Hong Kong 513 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 4: Exchange earlier this year. It was just a fantastic event, 514 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 4: very very well attended at all levels of the industry, 515 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: and we came away from that with some pleasantly surprising 516 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 4: opportunities and ideas for all parts of our business. So 517 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: there's a lot of interest and I'm really looking forward 518 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 4: to that trip. 519 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: Is Hong Kong going to be part of that trip? 520 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: Because okay, because when you are in town and you 521 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: do not give us a shout out and we don't 522 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: see you here in the office, ly you know, Rebecca's 523 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: going to be quite a town out of our London office. 524 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: We guarantee we have better coffee here in our pantrmy. 525 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: We have better snacks election And that's just the start. 526 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: That's just the start. And I think Rebecca has some 527 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: questions right now. 528 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 5: So you've lived in many places Europe, America, China, Russia, 529 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 5: India and now Saudi Arabia. What's the coolest thing about 530 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 5: living in the Middle East? 531 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 4: What's the coolest thing? I mean, I'm British, so the 532 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 4: weather's great, opening the curtains every day and seeing blue 533 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 4: sky never gets old for me. My Saudi colleagues love 534 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 4: it when it the odd occasion that it rains and 535 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: it's cloudy, But for me, blue sky just makes all 536 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 4: better about life. The other thing I would say is 537 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 4: I've learned a lot about the sense of community in 538 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 4: Saudi life that I think we've lost a little in 539 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 4: certainly in the UK. And I enjoy that sense of 540 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 4: community and belonging that you see every day in Saudi life. 541 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 4: It's a very very warm and welcoming environment, very very 542 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 4: hospitable I found. I found it really nice place to live, 543 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 4: very low crime rate, if any great food, great people, 544 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 4: lots to do. It's really fantastic. No surprise that we're 545 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 4: seeing huge, huge numbers of high net worth individuals leaving 546 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 4: Europe coming to the environments because the quality of living 547 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 4: is fantastic. Unfortunately, I'm a big foodie. This is one 548 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 4: of the reasons why I love Hong Kong and Singapore 549 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 4: so much. The food in read you can't go ten 550 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: meters down the street without some version of some coffee, food, pastry, shuama. 551 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 4: So you need to get the exercise in as well. 552 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 4: But it's a really, really great place to live, and 553 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 4: I would encourage listeners to take the plunge, get on 554 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 4: a flight and come and see what's going on, because 555 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 4: it really is quite phenomenal. 556 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, Well, for first time visitors, say I had 557 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: a day, what do I need to hit? What do 558 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: I need to see? And for people that come on 559 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: a semi regular basis, our sort of familiar have done 560 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: the usual, eating the usual food, gone to the usual places. 561 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: As someone who lives there, what would you advise that 562 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: second group of people, what do they need to do? Yeah? 563 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 4: I would do two things. I think The old City 564 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 4: of Darya, which is the sort of whether the House 565 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 4: of Sud originates from, is a World Heritage site and 566 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 4: really beautiful, astonishingly well done environment. You can get a 567 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 4: sense of Saudi history and very tastefully a number of 568 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 4: world class restaurants and sort of the Hacker Sands and 569 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 4: the mazes and this kind of stuff. So having an 570 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 4: afternoon there at sunset in particular is a beautiful thing. 571 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 4: The other thing that I would do is I would 572 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: get a tour to the edge of the World, which is, 573 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 4: you know, I suppose a version of the Grand Canyon 574 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 4: that no one ever has heard about outside the Kingdom, 575 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 4: and it is quite spectacular. You can get a tour 576 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 4: out there, have dinner on the cliff edge and you 577 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 4: look out over the sort of plateau below you which 578 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 4: stretches a thousand miles or so. Again, you know, sunset 579 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 4: experience is absolutely fantastic. So they're the things that you 580 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 4: can do for a day. In read you possibly could 581 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 4: do both in a day, but it would be a 582 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 4: bit of a stretch, but particularly late afternoon. They are 583 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 4: incredible places and anyone who follows me on LinkedIn, I 584 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 4: always post when I take visitors there. They're quite remarkable. 585 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 5: David and I are both football fans. For those that 586 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 5: may not know. Before David became a famous TV host, 587 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 5: he was a famous footballer and played for the Philippines. 588 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 5: So have you seen Ronaldo play football? 589 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna let her get away with that. Okay, 590 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: since you brought it up. Rebecca for listeners as well, 591 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: used to also play for the national team for the 592 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: Hong Kong team. He thought that you'd sneak that in. Huh. 593 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 5: David is a very great footballer, much better than I am. 594 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 5: But Lee, have you seen Ronaldo play? Yeah? 595 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 2: Have you seen Ronaldo player? 596 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 4: Plea, well, I have not. I am an Alkhalal fan, 597 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 4: which are Ronaldo's big rivals, and I'm glad to say 598 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 4: I think pretty much on every occasion we've beaten Ronaldo's team. 599 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: I have to be careful what I say because a 600 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 4: lot of my colleagues are big fans of Ronaldo and 601 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 4: his supporters. But I'm feeling pretty good season. And you know, 602 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 4: I became a Tottenham Hotspur fan in nineteen seventy eight, 603 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 4: so I've got a lot of disappointment of a you know, 604 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 4: forty plus years of being a Tottenham fan. So I 605 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 4: ask people, don't begrudge me my moment of glory as 606 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 4: an Akhalal fan. And I saw them win the league 607 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 4: and yeah, it was a novel experience for me to 608 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 4: see what the trophy looks like as a Tottenham fan. 609 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 4: So I'm pretty happy, hopefully we're going to see some 610 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 4: more big signings in Saudi. Who knows needs? Oh, well, 611 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 4: I would love to see Mo Salah. I think he's 612 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 4: a fantastic striker. This one thing I would say, the 613 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 4: stadiums and the general ambience and spirit of watching football 614 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 4: in Sally is also a brilliant, brilliant experience. Al Helao 615 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 4: is jam packed at every home game. Quality of football 616 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 4: is good. It's a brilliant environment. Lots of families, lots 617 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 4: of female spectators. It's a really really good environment. Another 618 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 4: good reason to visit the Kingdom. 619 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you where your heart is read Land. 620 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: Club wise, you mentioned big name transfers. How would you 621 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: feel if the Korean lad human Swan moved from Spurs 622 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 2: to Al Hilal Would you be happy? Would you be? 623 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 5: Said? 624 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 4: I think I would be happy. Son has been an 625 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 4: amazing player for Tottenham and you know we love him 626 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 4: for sure. I'd love to see his pay in the 627 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 4: Saudi League. I think he did brilliantly so and you 628 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 4: know the challenge with being a Spurs fan is the 629 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 4: hope that kills you. So you know, I now just 630 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 4: take every day as it comes, and yeah, it's a 631 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 4: beautiful day. It's a beautiful day in London. I'm not 632 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 4: going to get depressed. 633 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you so much, Lee for joining us from 634 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 6: our London office. We were thrilled by this conversation, especially 635 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 6: lovely football and tourism tips that you gave us, and 636 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 6: we look forward to when you come to Hong Kong. 637 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 6: We hoped to have a meal with you, or when 638 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 6: maybe Dave Night get the opportunity to go to Saudi 639 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 6: Arabia and maybe watch a football match. 640 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 4: You will be very very welcome, and we'd be sure 641 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 4: to hit those tourists hotspots and I make sure you 642 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 4: get the right food too. 643 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: Fantastic, and we'll make sure we're more we're there for 644 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 2: more than a day. It looks like it's a ton 645 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 2: of dude not worth squeezing into. 646 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 4: That sunny read, but sunny react. It is a huge 647 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 4: country with incredible incredible singer. 648 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so one of the assignments is we see in 649 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 2: the office here is I'm gonna drag my boss down 650 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 2: from the stairs and then you're gonna convince him to 651 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 2: set me loose, give me a three week call a 652 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 2: day and not charge me for it. Leave fantastic, Thank you, 653 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 2: Thank you, so much for your time. To our listeners, 654 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: thank you for listening to Tiger Money, your Bloomberg podcast 655 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: about investing funds in financial markets in Asia and beyond. 656 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 2: If you like what you here, please do not forget 657 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,959 Speaker 2: to subscribe, to like and to share. Until next time. 658 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 2: You can find us inside the Bloomberg terminal or on LinkedIn, 659 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: and we look forward to hearing from all of you. 660 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 2: This podcast was produced by Clara Champ.