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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a fried egg.

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Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, fridag Egg, fridagg

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Speaker 2: bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of

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Speaker 2: the hump.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Golf Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I am your host, Andy Johnson. Today I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: a friend of the program, a former big part of

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Speaker 1: the program, former co host of this podcast, Garrett Morrison.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Garrett, Hello, how's it going Andy.

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Speaker 1: It's going great. It's going great. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: golf arct texture today. Always exciting, always fun to open

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Speaker 1: up the mail bag and and kick around some big

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Speaker 1: topics in golf. So we each picked four questions to

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Speaker 1: bat around, so we should have a a pretty full

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Speaker 1: I feel like we always have, like a big aspiration.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get through a lot. I figured if we

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Speaker 1: just picked four each that it would probably fill up,

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Speaker 1: fill up the pod.

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Speaker 2: Aim small, miss small exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: And before we get to the mail bag pod big

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Speaker 1: big news in the Friday Pro Shop, it's black Friday

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Speaker 1: It's that time of the year. It's time to save,

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Speaker 1: it's time to shop. That's the way this works, you know,

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Speaker 1: load up on your holiday gear. The Friday pro Shop

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Speaker 1: has a Black Friday Sale. The code is b F Sale,

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Speaker 1: which gets you twenty percent off everything. As as a reminder,

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Speaker 1: Friday Golf Club members, you guys get a little bit

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Speaker 1: more so if you use your normal code. It's very

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Speaker 1: secretive for those that aren't members, but you know, if

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Speaker 1: you use your normal fried Egg member code, you get

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Speaker 1: twenty five percent off this week. The only things that

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Speaker 1: aren't included in the sale at Proshop dot thefridagg dot

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Speaker 1: com are our book, our new coffee table book that

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Speaker 1: is going to ship pretty soon, and golf bags. So

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Speaker 1: those are the only two things that are excluded. Do

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Speaker 1: you have a favorite pick, Garrett from the pro Shop.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many, and plus I might

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Speaker 2: not be totally up to date on what we actually

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Speaker 2: have in the Pro Shop in all honesty, because it

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Speaker 2: changes pretty quickly. Items sell out pretty quickly, and we

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Speaker 2: have a great crew led by Meg Atkins and Abby

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Speaker 2: Libenthal that keep things really fresh in there. But I

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Speaker 2: recently in a newsletter recommend getting a humble koozie. A

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Speaker 2: not interested in fighting kuzzi, which I think could be

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Speaker 2: very useful for some people because if you're using a kuzi,

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Speaker 2: you're probably drinking a beer. And if you're drinking a beer,

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Speaker 2: you might be in an environment where people might want

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Speaker 2: to fight, you know, because they're getting a little lubricated,

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Speaker 2: and you're just telling people with this kouzzy. I'm not

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Speaker 2: interested in participating in that, and I think it could

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Speaker 2: could help people evade certain situations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I could save you, could really get you out

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Speaker 1: of a jam. I like that. I got a couple

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Speaker 1: of recks. I love the bet dratty they got that.

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Speaker 1: We got a bunch of andy hoodies check that out,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of other dratty stuff. But then I'm

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Speaker 1: a huge fan of this Friday Golf American needle hat.

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Speaker 1: It's just got Friday Golf in block text on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just a big fan of it. So that that's

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Speaker 1: my wreck, and really earnest reck. It's not on sale,

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Speaker 1: you can't save money. I think the book's gonna be awesome.

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Speaker 1: I'd recommend the book. Check out the book. Garrett put

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Speaker 1: a lot of time and energy into that book and

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Speaker 1: it is. Uh. I think it's gonna be a beautiful

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Speaker 1: book to have and to read through. The pictures are

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Speaker 1: are spectacular, the writing's great, and I think it I

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Speaker 1: think it looks really good. So I would I would

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Speaker 1: recommend the book.

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Speaker 2: The book's so cool. I mean, yeah, I was. I

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Speaker 2: was charged with editing a lot of the words that

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Speaker 2: are in the book. But the design of it is

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Speaker 2: so cool. And the photography that we have in there,

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Speaker 2: mostly taken by Andy obviously you Andy, Cameron Hurdis and

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Speaker 2: Matt Ruschius, is beautiful and I think the way it's

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Speaker 2: displayed in the book is going to be really fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Did you do you have any photos that's snuck in?

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Speaker 2: I think I must have. You know, I photographed like

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Speaker 2: like Victoria Golf Club in Australia is in there, and

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Speaker 2: I was the one who photographed that one, and so people,

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Speaker 2: well people might be people might notice a decline in

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Speaker 2: the quality. I would assume, like it's definitely not my specialty,

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Speaker 2: but you know, pretty much everything looks good in golden

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Speaker 2: hour light. So as long as you get good light

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Speaker 2: that that sort of compensates for a lot of sins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so check all that out. Pro shop dot Thefrida

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Speaker 1: egg dot Com. It's BF Friday, and while we're at it,

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Speaker 1: I know it's not summer anymore. But Maui Nui, our

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Speaker 1: friends at Maui Nui have an always summer sausage and

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Speaker 1: it's the cleanest, most nutrient dense lunch meat on the planet.

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Speaker 1: And it's crafted from one wild harvested access deer from

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Speaker 1: Maui uh seasoned with Hawaiian red sea salt and pink peppercorn.

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Speaker 1: So this tastes great, it fuels performance, does good for

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Speaker 1: the planet. And listen, it's not you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: always summer, but you can always eat summer sausage. It's

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Speaker 1: not a deli beat. It's a completely new way to

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Speaker 1: have a sandwich. I had one of these recently. It

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Speaker 1: was delicious. I recommend it honestly, like I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what I was I was getting into, and it was

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Speaker 1: a delightful sandwich beat, a lot healthier than your typical

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Speaker 1: sandwich meats, you know those those deli meats, and like

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Speaker 1: high in protein and it's super clean nutrition, unlike your

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Speaker 1: typical deli beat. So if you're interested in in uh,

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Speaker 1: Mali Nui's always summer sausage. You can go to Maui

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Speaker 1: Nui Venison. That's m a u I n Ui Venison

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Speaker 1: v E n I s O n dot com slash egg.

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Speaker 1: And when you're asked about how you heard about Maui Nui,

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Speaker 1: make sure to mention this podcast because it helps support

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Speaker 1: the show. So go get your always summer sausage even

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Speaker 1: though it's the winner. I'll revolutionize your lunchtime sandwiches at

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Speaker 1: Maui Nui Venison dot com slash egg. All right, big

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Speaker 1: thanks to Maui Nui for the support this year. Garrett.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into the golf architecture discussion. Since you're the

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Speaker 1: guest here, let's give you the first question. I get

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Speaker 1: my influencer, Mike.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay, where do I start? Well, there

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Speaker 2: were a lot of great questions. We each chose four,

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Speaker 2: so we chose a total of eight, and so there

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Speaker 2: are many we're not going to get to, but that

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Speaker 2: always happens anyway, so we just did it by design

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Speaker 2: this time. The first one I'd like to talk about

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Speaker 2: is from Brian Decker on Frida Egg Golf Club. So

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Speaker 2: we put out a call for questions within our new

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Speaker 2: community forum and Frida Egg Golf Club, which has been

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Speaker 2: a lot of fun so far. Whatever you may think

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Speaker 2: of message boards on the internet, this one one is

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Speaker 2: is I feel like so far it's one of the

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Speaker 2: good ones. But in any case, Brian asks on FUGC,

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Speaker 2: the privately owned ultra premium national membership club model seems

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Speaker 2: to be the most common source of quality architecture over

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Speaker 2: the past few years, beyond the obvious examples like the park.

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Speaker 2: What are some other forms of developer slash ownership models

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Speaker 2: that you've seen that have produced good golf and might

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Speaker 2: be scalable elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's been a lot of diversity in

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Speaker 1: the in the type of types of models. I think

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Speaker 1: one that jumps to mind is the public private partnership

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Speaker 1: for for public golf.

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Speaker 2: This is the.

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Speaker 1: Answer where you know a a private group ideally that

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Speaker 1: has the you know, aligned intentions with a with a

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Speaker 1: municipality or a county. You know one the would jump

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Speaker 1: to mind as Rustic Canyon. This is an example of this,

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Speaker 1: and don't you know, I don't know the exact intricacies

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Speaker 1: of it, but it's a lease and you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the big parts of the lease is a is

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Speaker 1: keeping the golf affordable. And what you get there is

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Speaker 1: you get a ownership group of the lease that is

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Speaker 1: aligned and you know, maybe it's not an ownership group,

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Speaker 1: it's a leaseee that's aligned with the municipality or county

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Speaker 1: where it is, Hey, we want to provide an asset

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Speaker 1: for the community, and we're going to give you the

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Speaker 1: key here is that give them a long lease that's

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Speaker 1: very manageable. A lot of times you see these and

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Speaker 1: it's a dollar, you know, a year, you know, some structure,

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Speaker 1: different ways there could be profit sharing, but anyways, it

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Speaker 1: sets up a situation because the problem with so many

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Speaker 1: of these you know, municipalities or public golf courses when

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Speaker 1: they go to a you know, a lease model is

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Speaker 1: if you give somebody a five year lease, there's no

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Speaker 1: time to put capital improvements, significant capital improvements in place

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Speaker 1: and recoup the money. You need to have a long

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Speaker 1: term lease. And this is where fifty seventy one hundred

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Speaker 1: years is really beneficial because then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: if you want to do a major project, let's just say,

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Speaker 1: you need to do the irrigation it is it is

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Speaker 1: worn out, and you also want to you know, redo

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Speaker 1: the bunkers, and some greens and make some big changes

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Speaker 1: with the golf course. Okay, if I put eight to

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Speaker 1: ten million dollars into the golf course, I now have

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to recapture that that revenue over ten fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: What the issue is when these at leases are short

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Speaker 1: is you have no incentive to do that because you're

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Speaker 1: just going to lose money and the person leasing the

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Speaker 1: property could change who they listen to, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's probably the model that's worked the best.

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Speaker 1: I think there's room for other models, we just haven't

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Speaker 1: really seen it yet. I think the model I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of most interested in is the idea of extremely low

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Speaker 1: amenity golf.

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Speaker 2: That's new. Yeah, mom and pop golf. I'd love to

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Speaker 2: see how mom and pop golf might work in the

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Speaker 2: current environment. Mike Young at the Fields outside of Atlanta

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Speaker 2: is a big advocate of people trying this. It's not

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Speaker 2: a big profit business, but you can make a profit

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Speaker 2: if you save costs and if you operate at a

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Speaker 2: very you know, efficient according to a very efficient philosophy,

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Speaker 2: and you might be presenting course conditions that aren't luxurious,

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Speaker 2: but they're serving a certain segment of the market. You're

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Speaker 2: providing affordable golf for people, and you're not relying on

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Speaker 2: the backing of a municipality to do it. So I

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Speaker 2: would like to see more people try mom and pop

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Speaker 2: golf because there are a lot of people out there

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Speaker 2: who love golf who really would like to own a

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Speaker 2: golf course and run a golf course, but are scared

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Speaker 2: to do it because you know, they think that they

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Speaker 2: might lose all their money, and that's a legitimate worry.

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Speaker 2: But you just have to be smart and efficient, and

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Speaker 2: I think you can do it. There have been, there

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Speaker 2: are a number of examples out there of people who

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Speaker 2: are doing it, and you know, they're relatively rare, and

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Speaker 2: not all of them are the greatest courses in the world.

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Speaker 2: But I wish people weren't as scared as they seem

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Speaker 2: to be to pursue this.

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Speaker 1: Well. I think some of it is such a follow

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Speaker 1: the leader type situation, and I think, like I think

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Speaker 1: also where people get wrapped up is they feel like

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Speaker 1: if they own a golf course, they have to have

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Speaker 1: the most luxurious, most talked about golf course, and often

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Speaker 1: what gets propped up in golf is exclusivity, opulence and

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Speaker 1: over the top features not necessarily even the golf course.

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the golf course features. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about the comfort stations, the clubhouses, the amenities, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: what gets lost. Is one of the things I talked

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Speaker 1: about this with KVV a little bit, is there's a

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Speaker 1: startling lack of development across the different markets in golf.

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Speaker 1: All the development right now is at the high end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm curious to see if people could make different

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Speaker 1: models work. And I understand the construction industry and materials

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Speaker 1: industry has made some of that difficult.

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Speaker 2: There's also a startling lack of development in high population places,

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Speaker 2: but and that's another issue having to do with land

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Speaker 2: costs and a number of understandable factors. So a couple

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Speaker 2: of thoughts on models. Quick thoughts. One, you mentioned the

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Speaker 2: lease agreements that many municipalities have for their golf courses.

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Speaker 2: Those are pretty common. But the lease ees that I'm

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Speaker 2: most interested in, or that I tend to be the

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Speaker 2: most interested in, are not the big companies that do

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Speaker 2: that have a lot of these management contracts. There are

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Speaker 2: efficiencies within those companies, and some of thempanies are better

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Speaker 2: than others, but that's kind of the usual thing. Is

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Speaker 2: that a municipality is going to give the lease to

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Speaker 2: a company that has a lot of other accounts and

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Speaker 2: a track record, and that can work out fine, just

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Speaker 2: depending on the specific people who are there. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: not so great. Sometimes there's not a lot of heart

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Speaker 2: and soul put into those projects. But I tend to

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Speaker 2: like the leases that are taken by individuals or very

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Speaker 2: small businesses that want to make something of their golf

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Speaker 2: courses invest in their golf courses. Those ones can have

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Speaker 2: really really good results. Public private partnership you mentioned this,

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of different versions of this. There

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Speaker 2: are groups in cities like Nashville that are fundraising and

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Speaker 2: pulling off pretty ambitious renovation projects at municipal courses because

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Speaker 2: they've gathered together a bunch of golf enthusiasts who have

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Speaker 2: some money and they've decided to support their municipal courses.

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Speaker 2: And that is definitely something that we saw at the

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Speaker 2: park and something that we're occasionally seeing popping up in

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Speaker 2: various cities across the country, but I wish it were

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Speaker 2: a little more common. And then the final one I

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Speaker 2: want to mention is the possibility of a community oriented,

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Speaker 2: very low cost private club I wish there were more

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Speaker 2: of those. I think those are that's a feasible model,

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Speaker 2: probably not as hard to work out as the mom

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Speaker 2: and pop course. But if we had a greater supply

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Speaker 2: of affordable private clubs, a lot of the pressures on

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Speaker 2: public golf and a lot of the movement toward really

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Speaker 2: high end private golf wouldn't be as worrisome.

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Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the head a

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Speaker 1: little bit with that one. One of the reasons we

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Speaker 1: don't have that as much anymore is that the demand

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Speaker 1: for private golf is so high in metropolitan areas that

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Speaker 1: what were the affordable options have gotten more expensive since COVID.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's everybody has really high initiation fees right now.

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Speaker 1: A fascinating study would be, it would require somebody with

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Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of intel in relationships in

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Speaker 1: a city, would be to compare the costs of membership

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Speaker 1: between dues and initiation of clubs in a major city

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Speaker 1: like New York or Chicago or LA. If you could

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Speaker 1: get a full list of a good list of clubs,

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Speaker 1: compare pre COVID post code and what they are, I

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Speaker 1: think it would be shocking how how much the price

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Speaker 1: has gone up for clubs that are that used to

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Speaker 1: be considered very affordable. Yeah, and it's really just a

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Speaker 1: demand thing, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean huge in the twenty twenties. This has been a

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Speaker 2: recent change.

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Speaker 1: This is just economics at work. Yeah, it's not anybody's fault.

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Speaker 1: And what they've done is they've improved their club with

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Speaker 1: the Capitol and they're more amenities than ever. But I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things that's happened in golf is

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Speaker 1: it's really I wrote about a course that I was

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Speaker 1: a member of in I was probably a member from

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Speaker 1: I don't know twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen through twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, probably twenty seventeen Calumet Country Club, which closed

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Speaker 1: this this past week. And you know, there's I found

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Speaker 1: out after I wrote the piece that there was a

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Speaker 1: lot there's a lot more going on potentially with it.

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Speaker 1: You know that maybe a story to come. But but

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Speaker 1: one of the things I think about is I was

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Speaker 1: in my late twenties and a great woman, Lorraine Skodro,

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Speaker 1: who runs tournaments for the CDGA, the Chicago District Golf Association,

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Speaker 1: that I played in a lot of those. She runs

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Speaker 1: ran ternaments for him. And she said, Andy, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're costing your money. You live in the city, You're

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Speaker 1: costing yourself money every year that you don't join Caliumet.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, what do you mean. She's like,

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Speaker 1: you play all this golf, Like why wouldn't you join there?

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Speaker 1: The deal's great. So I went down and I looked

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Speaker 1: at it, and at the time, you know, and this

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Speaker 1: was probably a harpinger for why they had financial problems

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Speaker 1: and that we were in financial crisis. It was one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars a month for me to join.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was, I mean, okay, twenty thirteen, still

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Speaker 2: in the blast zone of the Great Recession, and still

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Speaker 2: at a low point for golf, right, and so this

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Speaker 2: was probably the best time in the past, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: one hundred years to try to join a private golf

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Speaker 2: club in terms of finances.

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Speaker 1: So I and they had a referral program which knocked it.

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Speaker 1: I knocked it down. I was paying one hundred bucks

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Speaker 1: a month and I had I think one hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: food minimum a month. And it was an amazing deal.

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Speaker 1: I I was. I played so much golf, I got

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Speaker 1: so many of my friends to join, and it was

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Speaker 1: a great place. And I don't think like I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that's the model. I want to be clear. I

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Speaker 1: know that that's not a real model for golf. But

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Speaker 1: I think about today, where do you know, you talk

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Speaker 1: about what's going on in the world and the way

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Speaker 1: the costs have gone up, where does it we've seen

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Speaker 1: all this growth, Where does the twenty eight year old

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Speaker 1: young professional play golf, who is you know, working their

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Speaker 1: ass off to just house themselves at this point if

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Speaker 1: they live in a major city.

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Speaker 2: Where where does the regular forty year old dad play golf?

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Speaker 2: I don't know if there are even those places right now,

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Speaker 2: like middle class, middle aged people.

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Speaker 1: And it's a great it's a great situation. The game

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Speaker 1: has has grown so much in terms of participation, but

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Speaker 1: you've done some stuff with it with the NGNGF. It's

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Speaker 1: I think we're in such a similar position to the

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Speaker 1: nineties when they recommended, was it the nineties they recommended

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Speaker 1: a new golf course need to be built every day?

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Speaker 2: Was that?

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Speaker 1: I know that you have you have this in your

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Speaker 1: vault of oh right.

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Speaker 2: I bring it up from time to time with my

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Speaker 2: friends over there at the ENNGF. I think that they

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Speaker 2: learned a lesson from that prediction slash recommendation, and are

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Speaker 2: more cautious now in their kind of prognostications about where

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Speaker 2: the industry is going.

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Speaker 1: But golf has this huge supply issue at every level,

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Speaker 1: and there's no I don't foresee any way of fixing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, aside from increasing the supply, which has proven to

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Speaker 2: be I guess too expensive. Land costs are the big

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Speaker 2: factor there. Yeah. Where I would just like to see

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Speaker 2: some work done is on economy of construction and economy

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Speaker 2: of maintenance. I'm not sure that really that many people

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Speaker 2: are thinking about those things. People just sort of seem

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Speaker 2: to accept that right now. Golf courses cost a certain

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Speaker 2: amount to build, build, and maintain, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: what people think of as needs of construction and maintenance

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Speaker 2: are actually once And I would like to see a

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Speaker 2: perspective shift among golfers about what constitutes good conditioning. And

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Speaker 2: I would like to see a perspective shift among developers

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Speaker 2: about how much these projects actually cost, because I don't

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Speaker 2: think that they need to cost as much as they do.

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Speaker 2: So that's at least one area I'd like us to

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Speaker 2: work on. But I recognize it's a tough situation. Nobody

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Speaker 2: can afford to build an affordable golf course anymore, and

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Speaker 2: it's a real problem. But the current economic conditions that

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Speaker 2: we have right now won't last forever. Things will shift

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Speaker 2: and the golf industry will shift with it.

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Speaker 1: And if the economic conditions shift, it'll be interesting to

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Speaker 1: see if golfs demand issue shifts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hope that the shift isn't disastrous. But of course,

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Speaker 2: the trend in economic shifts over the past number of

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Speaker 2: years has been you know, they've been a little more

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Speaker 2: severe than you would want.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's get to the next question.

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Speaker 2: We just finally Yeah, right, we're gonna even fall short.

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Speaker 2: We've gotta, we've gotta, we've got to knock these knock

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Speaker 2: these out here, all right.

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Speaker 1: This is a question about how we rate courses. In

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Speaker 1: case anybody doesn't know, we rate courses in Friday Golf Club.

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Speaker 1: If you join, you can get access to I think

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Speaker 1: we're probably at like one hundred and fifty reviews at

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Speaker 1: this point. With ratings. We do a zero, one, two

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Speaker 1: three egg system. It's very similar to a Michelin Star system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw I saw on the app known as

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Speaker 2: X recently that this would be a great idea for

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Speaker 2: how to rate golf courses and somebody should do it.

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Speaker 2: And I think it was our friend and colleague, Brendan

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Speaker 2: Porath who put his hand up and said, actually we

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So a question from Mike, I'm I'm is it?

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Speaker 2: I'm okay, I apologies.

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Speaker 1: I was told by the whole family at an event. Okay.

391
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Speaker 2: I haven't met him in person. He's a he's a

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Speaker 2: big contributor to Friday Golf Club and a very it

393
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Speaker 2: seems like a very nice.

394
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Speaker 1: Guy, great player, great player, whole family great players of

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Speaker 1: their own right.

396
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Speaker 2: His brother is a coach, right is that his brother

397
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Speaker 2: at the University of Iowa.

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, played played on a bunch of developmental tour

399
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Speaker 1: like the Latin America for a while. They all, they

400
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Speaker 1: all can get her around father, father and sons. How

401
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Speaker 1: do you, guys, egg? I guess you know that I

402
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Speaker 1: would say, rate.

403
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Speaker 2: How do you how do you? Yeah? Yeah?

404
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: Nine versus eighteen? And a follow on question from Ben

405
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Speaker 1: Dennison is how to evaluate nine hole courses that later

406
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Speaker 1: a different architect comes in to make up eighteen holes.

407
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Speaker 1: This is the happen stance place, Yeah, especially on the

408
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Speaker 1: East coast and in the in the Midwest because a

409
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Speaker 1: lot of farm towns have only needed nine holes and

410
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Speaker 1: the reality is they only ever needed nine holes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean any place where golf was developed before

412
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Speaker 2: say the nineteen seventies, even this is a pretty common situation.

413
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Speaker 1: So it's how should we how should we think about

414
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Speaker 1: ranking and evaluating these courses when maybe these courses would

415
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Speaker 1: be better off staying nine holes? And what is your

416
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Speaker 1: favorite nine hole turned eighteen hole later course in the country.

417
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Speaker 2: Okay, so kind of three separate questions there, how.

418
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Speaker 1: Do you let's just start with how do we how

419
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Speaker 1: do we raise nine hole.

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Speaker 2: Versus eighteen Yeah, I mean we can I can you know,

421
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Speaker 2: knock out these questions pretty well. It's uh, it is

422
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 2: a tough issue when you rate a nine hole course

423
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Speaker 2: and you're trying to figure out, Okay, if this is

424
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Speaker 2: America's best nine hole course, does it have to be

425
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Speaker 2: three eggs? And we recently actually asked that question with

426
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Speaker 2: a with a course profile and rating that our colleague

427
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: Matt Rushis did on Culver Academies, the golf course at

428
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: Culver Academies that it's an excellent Langford and Moreau course

429
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 2: that has been beautifully restored, gradually restored, uh, you know,

430
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Speaker 2: owing in large parts of the efforts of the of

431
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Speaker 2: the superintendent there over Bobby Bobby Bobby Bobby, Bobby Weed

432
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Speaker 2: and recently Brian Schneider has made some suggestions there. So

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Speaker 2: credit to credit to everybody involved.

434
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Speaker 1: But Michael is the superintendent who's done an incredible job.

435
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the the you know, Matt gave uh Culver

436
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: one of the most aggressive ratings that I think we've

437
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: we've ever given. He gave Culver three eggs, and he

438
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: made an argument as to why it deserved it, and

439
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: I support that argument one hundred percent. I would say

440
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: I try to rate courses according to what they're trying

441
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: to do. If the course is trying to be a

442
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: great nine hole course, then I'll rate it according to

443
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: how well it is a great nine hole course. So yes,

444
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 2: I absolutely think that nine hole courses can get a

445
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: top rating. I also think that short courses can get

446
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: a top rating. And I actually gave three eggs to

447
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: the short course at sand Valley, the Sandbox, because I

448
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: think that that's the best par three course I've ever played.

449
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: I think it's an incredible work of architecture. The Green

450
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: shaping there is so good it kind of blows my

451
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: mind how good that golf course is. But a lot

452
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: of people would hesitate, I think to give a short

453
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: course a top rating because it doesn't contain par fours

454
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: and par fives, and maybe to a lot of people

455
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: it's not a completely satisfying version of.

456
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: Golf shot values?

457
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, how do you determine how do you talk

458
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: about strategy, strategic design, or shot values or protection of

459
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: par our favorite criterion. I'm just kidding about that obviously,

460
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: how do you rate a short course? And again, my

461
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: philosophy is, and I don't always like stick to this

462
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, but I think my basic philosophy is

463
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: rate a course according to what it's trying to do,

464
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: and that extends to affordable courses versus high end private courses.

465
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: If the course is trying to be a great forty

466
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: dollars eighteen hole golf course, then I think that you

467
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: have to approach it from a slightly different perspective than

468
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: you would approach a course with a you know that's

469
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: trying to be the world's greatest high end private course.

470
00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think I think determining their I identity

471
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: is such an important piece of evaluating a golf course.

472
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: And I don't want to be pretentious about evaluating golf

473
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: courses to a certain extent. How I think about my

474
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: what I rate golf courses. A lot of it is

475
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: like do I you know, and I don't want this

476
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: to sound too simplistic. I think about all the you know,

477
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: various things that go into a golf course, like the routing,

478
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: the bunkering, the greens, the turf, the you know, all

479
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: of that. But really when it comes to putting a

480
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: score on paper, I think about how much do I

481
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: think about going back there and dying to go back

482
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: and play it? And you know, for me, courses that

483
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: I just dream about going back and playing. And this

484
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: extends to places like you know, Diamond Springs, which is

485
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: I believe they've they've gone from thirty five to maybe

486
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: like fifty dollars now, but I dream about playing there.

487
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: You know. I don't want to give to too much away,

488
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: but I was going through the event calendar with Will

489
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: we have an event there this year and I said,

490
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: I saw it on the calendar and I said, ooh, Will,

491
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: I think I got to go to that Diamond Springs thing.

492
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: And he goes well, stirring at the US Open, I go,

493
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: I won't be there.

494
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: And you've already been to Michigan a million times, but

495
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: you still want to go to Diamond Springs.

496
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: So for me, now we could get really uh I

497
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: think the right the right word would be pedantic, right, yeah,

498
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: on the different you know aspects that go into it.

499
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, if I'm jumping

500
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: at the opportunity to go play somewhere, to me, that

501
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: that is a core part of it, whether it's nine holes,

502
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: six holes, twelve holes. And I think Culver is a

503
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: great example of that. Anytime I am within you know, really,

504
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: anytime I'm in Chicago and I'm thinking about going to

505
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: play golf, Culver rattles around in my brain and it's

506
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: three hours away. Anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm like, uh,

507
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: I could go to Culver, And to me, if it's

508
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: three hours away and I'm going to just drive down there,

509
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: it's got a very high appeal in the in the rating.

510
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: So for me, holes don't matter whatsoever. Type of golf

511
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: I don't think necessarily matters. On like, I'm not going

512
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: to dock a course because it's a short course. On

513
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: the egg scale. I'm going to rate it, you know,

514
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: against other and I think it makes it a little

515
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: bit cleaner when you do it that way, because if

516
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: you're thinking about rating restaurants, you wouldn't be like, well,

517
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: I like Italian food more than more than Ramen. So

518
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: so all the places are tough.

519
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: Sorry Japan, you know, like.

520
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: Like an, I think these different forms of golf, and likewise,

521
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: like what you brought up, you have championship courses like Shinnacock,

522
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: and you have really fun golf courses that are private

523
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: and well maintained, like Cape Arundle and Shinnacock. How do

524
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: you rate those? They are two they have two completely

525
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: different objectives.

526
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: It's apples and oranges. And that's part of why we

527
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: don't really love ranking courses one, two, three, four, five, six, right,

528
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: because that really forces you to say, Okay, you know

529
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: what's better Cape Arundle or Shinnacock, Like, how do I

530
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: come to that decision? Putting courses in buckets allows for

531
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: a little bit more flexibility about how we're assessing courses,

532
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: and we like to change our mode of assessment depending

533
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: on what the course is trying to do.

534
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen like all these like very intricate scoring systems,

535
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: but you have to rank out of ten a million times.

536
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: No offense to anyone who does this. I know people

537
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: who do this, and it looks like it's just a hobby.

538
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: It's just fun. I could not be less interested in

539
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: doing something like that, Like trying to mathematically work out

540
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: the perfect rating system for a golf course. I just

541
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: don't think. That's just not how I go about assessing

542
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: a golf course.

543
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: I also think like it becomes very formulaic, and there

544
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: are certain things that certain some golf courses have that's

545
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: just this like special sauce to them. A good example

546
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: of a course that I'm particularly enthralled with is Brambles

547
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: in California. It's been a very long growing period, and

548
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: you know, at different points I was kind of like,

549
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: in my head, I don't know if it's ever going

550
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: to get to where what they're telling me it's going

551
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: to get to with the turf and I play. We played.

552
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: We had an event up there a couple weeks ago

553
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: and we played and the turf was just so incredible

554
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: that I am. I'm just enthralled by it. But if

555
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: you looked at it from like a site standpoint and

556
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: a hole by hole. Maybe it doesn't like it's not

557
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: going to just wow people off the page, But for me,

558
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: as they keep getting it more and more dialed in,

559
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: the next thing they have to get it done is

560
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: the native It's just going up and up and up,

561
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: because there's just that it has an intangible quality between

562
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: the place, the turf, the architecture, the setting that all

563
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: melds together that if I grated it out on point

564
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: by point, I would find a lot of distractions. And

565
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: by doing that you get so specific that you almost

566
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: lose the plot. And I think like this might be

567
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: similar and I, I, you know, to if you're evaluating

568
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: a prospect for a for a for the NFL or

569
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: for the you know, NBA, and you get so I

570
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: would think like grading out really in depth is kind

571
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: of kind of similar to being enamored with measurables but

572
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: just ignoring on field production. And for me, how I

573
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: feel about the course and oftentimes one of the best

574
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: things to me is is do I just want to

575
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: just keep going and playing golf? And am I sad

576
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: if I can't just go play more? And that's kind

577
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: of like watching somebody being like, yeah, they're they're just

578
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: great at this. And to me, a great golf course

579
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: is you kind of know and I there are all

580
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: these things that go into it, and you could talk

581
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: in depth about the greens and the variety of the greens,

582
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: the routing, but there is just that intangible nature to

583
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: great golf courses that maybe if you broke it down

584
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: you could nitpick on things, but they just have a

585
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: special sauce.

586
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is supposed to be about golf course appreciation,

587
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: and when you get too deep into rating golf courses,

588
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: you might lose sight of the fact that it's supposed

589
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 2: to be about golf course appreciation. But to get to

590
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,439
Speaker 2: the other aspects of the question here, which we're asked

591
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 2: by Ben Dennison.

592
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: He's a great question.

593
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good, really cool question. Yeah, how

594
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: do you evaluate a nine hole course that later became

595
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: eighteen holes? And I will say my belief is that

596
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: I evaluate the course that exists now regardless of what

597
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: its history would be. But I also acknowledge that, yes,

598
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: a course can become word sometimes when it's expanded to

599
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: eighteen holes if those eighteen holes are not as good

600
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: as the original nine, even though all nine of the

601
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: original holes might still be there, still be intact. The

602
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: course as a whole can decline, in my estimation if

603
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: it now consists of eighteen holes, nine of which are

604
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: not nearly as good as the other nine. And this

605
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: is the case that a lot of courses. The one

606
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: that always comes to mind for me is I haven't

607
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: been to, but I've heard a great deal about Thindara

608
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: in New York. I think that's how you pronounce it,

609
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 2: you know, great original Donald Ross nine hole course along

610
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 2: with an additional nine that was built in the fifties

611
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: or sixties that just has a completely different architectural philosophy

612
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: behind it on a completely different kind of piece of land,

613
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: and just as the opposite and in many ways and

614
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 2: is really not very good, has not stood the test

615
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: of time. Well, well, that original nine holes is still

616
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: there and it's terrific and it's a great reason to

617
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: go play the course. But I would probably rate that

618
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: original nine hole course higher than I would ever rate

619
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: the full eighteen because again, you know, I'm rating the

620
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: course that is in the ground. My favorite course that

621
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: has gone through this kind of transformation would maybe be

622
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: an obvious one, and that's Prairie Did's where the original

623
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: nine by Perry Maxwell there is a masterpiece, maybe the

624
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 2: greatest nine hole course ever built. The additional nine by

625
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: his son, Press Maxwell, built in the nineteen fifties, is

626
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: missing a little something of the magic of those original

627
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: nine holes by Perry Maxwell. But really are pretty good.

628
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: Really really, Press did a In fact, he did a

629
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: great job considering the context in which the time period

630
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: in which he was doing all this, he did a

631
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: great job of matching the new holes to the old holes,

632
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 2: to the point where you know, ninety nine point nine

633
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: percent of people playing the golf course would not be

634
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: able to tell that one portion of this course was

635
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: built twenty or so years after the initial portion of

636
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: the course. And so I think Paridians is an example

637
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: of a course that went through the nine to eighteen

638
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: transition and came out.

639
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Very nice, definitely the best example. And I sat and listened.

640
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: I had a friend who who wanted to make the

641
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 1: argument that the Press nine was better than the Perry nine.

642
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: And I sat and listen.

643
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: A lot of people do make that argument. Yeah, and

644
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: I don't agree with it, but I get it, okay

645
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: where that comes from.

646
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: I don't think it's like insane. There are a lot

647
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: of people tell me a lot of insane things. I

648
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: actually might think it's a little insane, but I listened, and.

649
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: I only think it's I only kind of disregard it.

650
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: I don't disregard it. I only disagree with it confidently

651
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 2: because the I think that original nine is such a

652
00:40:59,280 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 2: master work.

653
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: The I think what sucks about this is oftentimes I

654
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: think like less golf is better just in general, the

655
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: less you build, the better the result. Now I get,

656
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: so I get the point of you want more utility

657
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: eighteen holes in the standard, but just in general, I

658
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 1: think more facilities, specifically public facilities would be better. Office

659
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: nine hole facilities and eighteen whole facilities. And the case

660
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: of this is basically through the Midwest, all these there's

661
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: so many great public golf courses that were built by

662
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: Lafe for Moureau that were turned into eighteen holes that

663
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: the new nine is an utter disaster, in different varying

664
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: levels of disaster, to be clear, but one that jumps

665
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: to mind. There's a there's a plate place in northwest

666
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: Indiana called Legacy Hills that used to be Laport country Club,

667
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: the Front nine, and and it's not in great shape.

668
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: The front nine is pure lang for Moreau. It's it's

669
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: not well taken care of, but it's amazing the landforms everything. Uh,

670
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: it's amazing. The back nine just don't even bother. Just

671
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: pay the ten dollars to play the front nine. I

672
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: think it's fifteen, like don't even go, don't even go

673
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: across the road, park, don't go go Coke. But then

674
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: you have like other ones Marquette, people go to Gray Walls,

675
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: don't skip Marquette, which is the sister course to Gray

676
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: Walls in Marquette, Michigan. Uh, it's leg for Moreau nine.

677
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: And I think it was Uh, I can't remember the guys.

678
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: I think it was David gill Is the is the

679
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: other architect he did He actually did West Bend, another

680
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: length from Morose other nine as well.

681
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 2: Yes he did. Yeah, he was. He was a specialist, Yes,

682
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 2: in this very particular art.

683
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then another one. Another example of this is

684
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: Harrison Hills, which had an additional Tim Lyddy design. Tim

685
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: Lady's holes are i would say, on the offensive scale,

686
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: a little bit lower than say Legacy Hills. But he

687
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, he messed around with some of the some

688
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: of the length of Moreau holes, which is a shame

689
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: he tried to match the style it. You know that.

690
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: I think you could go both ways on that one

691
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: as to whether the golf course is better, you know,

692
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: but I think nine hole, as you see with Culver,

693
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: I think Culver is unequivocally the best nine hole golf

694
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: course that I've seen. Now, I haven't seen Whitonsville. Unfortunately,

695
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: Cameron has seen Whitonsville on our staff, but he hasn't

696
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: seen Culver, so we we can't get the definitive. But

697
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: for me is the unequivocal champ when it comes to

698
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: nine hole courses in America. And Harrison Hill's Marquette in

699
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: West Bend would all be able to challenge if they

700
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: were just nine holes. And you think about it, is like, yeah,

701
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: the best nine hole golf course in America is a nice,

702
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: nice ring.

703
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you're a nine hole course, then go

704
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: after that crown as opposed to wanting to be something else.

705
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: You know, something just occurred to me. I can't believe

706
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: I didn't bring this up initially, but Pacific Grove is

707
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: a great example of a course that evolved in the

708
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: opposite direction where the initial nine holes was fine. But

709
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: kind of hasn't aged well because of tree plantings and

710
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: neighborhoods springing up around it and all that kind of stuff.

711
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: But then the second nine in the Dunes, designed by

712
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: Jack Neville in nineteen sixty, is spectacular and has become

713
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: the clearly superior nine and one that people will often

714
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: play by itself and not even go across the road.

715
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: Neville's an interesting character in golf architecture.

716
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he just he just lived his life

717
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: in the Monterey area, routed Bubble Beach, and then in

718
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty got hired by the municipality of Pacific Grove

719
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: and did another really good routing he did.

720
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: He built Glenn Eagles too, and around that time he

721
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: worked for the city for a number of years. I

722
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: think what happened was the depression hit and he got

723
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: this city job. He was, I think the superintendent of

724
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 1: their golf courses, and then after he retired from that,

725
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: he got back into building golf courses. I didn't know

726
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: that that was Tom Shay, the great proprietor of a

727
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: lease holder of Glenn Eagles, told me to that story.

728
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: Well, that would be interesting to know more about My

729
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: impression of Jack Neville until this point was just that

730
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: he was kind of like a gentleman amateur and just

731
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: kind of was in the golf world.

732
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how I think the story. All right, let's

733
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: take a quick break. Let's talk about our friends over

734
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,360
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735
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,480
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736
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737
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,080
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738
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,640
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739
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,879
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740
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,040
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741
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: wondering what is a groove It brush. They are the

742
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,080
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743
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: owned and operated and listen, clean grooves mean better golf shots.

744
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,880
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745
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six is with the groove It brush.

746
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,759
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747
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,080
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748
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,399
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749
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: lots of tour players using. You know, you just look

750
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: at their belts. They got it attached to that. All

751
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,120
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752
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,279
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753
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,279
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754
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,800
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755
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,040
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756
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,000
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757
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: at groovetbrush dot com. Thanks to groove it. And let's

758
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: get back to Garrett.

759
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: All right, do we want another question, Yeah, let's go.

760
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: Question from Randy Sierra from FUGC. He says, there's plenty

761
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: written about naturalism and the blending of manufactured features into

762
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: the natural landscape. What makes visually manufactured architecture great and

763
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: what are some examples? Okay, so he's basically this question

764
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 2: kind of challenges the common the conventional wisdom that beautiful

765
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 2: golf features are the ones that are natural or indistinguishable

766
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: from nature. But we all know that that's not the

767
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: end of the discussion, because there are manufactured looking courses

768
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: that we all like. So what is it that makes

769
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 2: a good manufactured looking course stand out from one that

770
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: from one that is offensive looking.

771
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: Oh, there's a lot of varying degrees of manufactured. I'd

772
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: also I'm mixed up Jack Neville and Jack Fleming. Fleming.

773
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well that makes more sense to me now, yeah, yeah,

774
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: Fleming is the guy. Fleming did some work. Yeah, he

775
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: added the nine to or he added some holes to

776
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 2: Sharp Park. He did a few other things. He was

777
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: an associate for various architects, and.

778
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: He met Alistair mackenzie at an Irish pub. Yes, and

779
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: that's how he got into the architecture world. But I

780
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: just mixed that up. He built Glen Glenn Eagles I

781
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: got from Jackson.

782
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: Jack Fleming didn't have anything to do with Pacific growth,

783
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: but he did have a lot to do with a

784
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: lot of other courses in the area.

785
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: The uh so different scales of of manufactured something that

786
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: I found interesting spending time with h with the architects

787
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: of Tim Jackson and David Cohn who I went to

788
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: Scottsdale National with. That is an extraordinary manufactured golf course.

789
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: I think that's actually probably one of the more underrated

790
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: or under you know, talked about really great uh modern designs,

791
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: and it's I understand why it's because nobody sees it.

792
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's did you mention that it's who it's owned by, Yeah.

793
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: Bob Parsons. It's a very high cost to get hit.

794
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: I don't think the.

795
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: Guy just in case people in them, you know, But the.

796
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: Guy did a great job letting these guys build it.

797
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 2: Those guys did an amazing job. It really is Bob did.

798
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: Bob is an awesome owner because you just let those

799
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 2: guys do their thing.

800
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean they said they had a big budget,

801
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: and obviously this goes into it. But something they told

802
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: me about manufacturing golf because if you went out there,

803
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: you never believe that it was just all built. But

804
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: it was effectively a plot of land. We have a

805
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: YouTube video all about this if you're more interested in

806
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: looking at this. But it was a plot of land

807
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: that was like flat graded for houses, and they moved

808
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: heaven and high earth to create a really cool place

809
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 1: to play golf. And I'm I'm not I don't have

810
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: the exact number, but they made roughly a this is

811
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: just rough numbers off of memory, a sixty foot tall,

812
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: six hundred yard mountain. And what I was like that

813
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: that had to be here and They're like, it wasn't

814
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: And I was like what, And they're like, the key

815
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: to manufacturing something is to make it so big that

816
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: you could never believe it's fake.

817
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 2: And in that kind of a Fasio principle, this is

818
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: what they learned from Fasio.

819
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't think Fasio went ever went that big,

820
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: but they.

821
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,919
Speaker 2: Created this maybe a couple of more modern places. But yes,

822
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: you're right, and I don't think he ever did a

823
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 2: even as far as I've seen, quite as well as

824
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: as Jackson con did it there.

825
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: It's so outlandish that it works that it feels like

826
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: you're playing in a natural setting. So I think that's

827
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: one end of it. But then there's a more natural,

828
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: less earth moving, but creating artificiality. And I think a

829
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: lot of the greatest golf courses in the world are

830
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 1: actually very artificial golf courses. Every seth Rayner golf course

831
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: is extremely artificial. It's artfully done, but you know the

832
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: shapes and such are are artificial.

833
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there there are. Every golf architect since

834
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: the Golden Age basically has manufactured features. Some put an

835
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: effort into blending those features in and making you think

836
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 2: that they were there previously. Others don't make as much

837
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: of that effort and are willing to let some of

838
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 2: their work stand out and show from the natural terrain.

839
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 2: And I think both methods can yield good results. For me,

840
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: the difference comes with the taste and the skill with

841
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: which manufactured features are generated. And this doesn't necessarily mean

842
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 2: the skill of making them look natural, but just the

843
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: skill of making them look interesting. Right, So, if we're

844
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: talking about overtly manufactured features, features that are not trying

845
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 2: to fool you into thinking their natural, then I really

846
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 2: like looking at the work of Walter Travis McDonald and

847
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: Rayner Langford and Moreau Pete die and then from the

848
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 2: current era, Brian Schneider and Jackson Kahn. I think all

849
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: of those architects do an interesting job of making overtly

850
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: manufactured features that don't feel just lame. And I think

851
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: they do that by introducing some unexpectedness, some surprise into

852
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 2: the shaping of these features. They are interesting to look

853
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 2: at in and of themselves because they're not just trying

854
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: to be pretty, they're trying to be interesting. They have

855
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: something about them that is maybe a little weird, maybe

856
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: a little off, maybe even like a little ugly, right,

857
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,479
Speaker 2: They're a combination of ugly and beautiful in an interesting way.

858
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: And so I think that that is what separates those

859
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 2: architects I mentioned, and what separates their work from from

860
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: the work of like your you know, your your your

861
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: Jack Nicholas's, or your Rye Jones's, or even your Tom Fazio's,

862
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: because I don't think that you know, when Tom Fazio

863
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 2: is such a skillful architect and his firm does such

864
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: enormously expert work. He is one of the best at

865
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: the industry at tying everything in and making everything feel

866
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 2: coherent aesthetically. But to me, it looks like Tom Fazio

867
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: is just trying to make everything look pretty and look right,

868
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: and that ends up being a little bit boring after

869
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: a while. That's just just my personal reaction to it.

870
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: So I prefer architects who are a little have have

871
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: something about the the esthetics that is that is just

872
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: slightly off kilter, and and that's to me what makes

873
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: it interesting.

874
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: I think, I think you hit the nail on the head.

875
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: It's an irregular irregularity when when something looks like it's

876
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: just copy and pasted over and over again.

877
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a this is a Reese Jones problem,

878
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 2: which is a separate thing, right.

879
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, a lot there are a lot of architects

880
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,479
Speaker 1: that yeah, yeah, it's always always easy to swerve into

881
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:56,919
Speaker 1: that lane.

882
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 2: But easy target easy.

883
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 1: It's when you get like the monotonous. It look that's

884
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: very similar one after another. I like, if you're going

885
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: to make stuff, make it all look different, and that's

886
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: going to be a better, better result. I will say

887
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: architecture has gone, like the trends of architecture has gone

888
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: to much more lay of the lay of the land,

889
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: even on more mundane sites. And I think a lot

890
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: of the monotonous comes from masquerading when you're trying to

891
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: artificially create a site. And what happens in that situation

892
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: is you hire a giant earth moving contractor and that's

893
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: where you get the monotony of the the mounds that

894
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: kind of just you know, flow, if that makes sense.

895
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well pretty much every modern every golf

896
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: course that's been built right now is being reshaped from

897
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,439
Speaker 2: wall to wall, and some take that opportunity to do

898
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: something interesting and and others don't really know what to

899
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: do with that opportunity, and and so you end up

900
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 2: with a with a site that everybody can tell is

901
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: not because you can feel that it's not natural, but

902
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: but it's also not doing anything interesting with it, which

903
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: is can be a problem.

904
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 1: Here's a question for britch Headache.

905
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 2: I think Rich Henning, Yeah, r Henning Twitter.

906
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: When do you think the first AI golf course gets commissioned?

907
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: Oh? Boy? I mean, do you think it has already been?

908
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: I don't know.

909
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: I think it would be fun to talk about what

910
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: I could do and design.

911
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm I might be biased on this

912
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: because I really don't like a lot of the AI

913
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: shit that that we're seeing right now. I don't like

914
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 2: what a lot of AI focused companies are are doing

915
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 2: with the technology. But what could AI do in design?

916
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 2: What would I like it to do in design? I

917
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: think coming up with a variety of options for a

918
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: routing on a certain piece of land would be an

919
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: interesting use of an AI system. I would imagine that

920
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 2: it could give you. It could just like spit out

921
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: according to certain parameters, one hundred different routings of possible

922
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 2: routings of a golf course that would work, and that

923
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: might generate some creative ideas for the architect. I think

924
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: that AI could be used to look for opportunities for

925
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: efficiency and economy of construction. Those could be great gains

926
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: that you'd find possibly with AI. I mean, I don't know.

927
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: I wonder if like a drainage plan or irritation could

928
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: actually be AI.

929
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: Some of the more technical needs of a golf course

930
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: you would imagine could be done by a robot. I mean,

931
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 2: the funny thing about new AI stuff, especially the chatbots,

932
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: is that they're not very good at practical stuff, but

933
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: but really convincing it creative tasks, which is, you know,

934
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: kind of makes their application to golf architecture a little

935
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 2: bit difficult to fathom. I do know that AI has

936
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: already been helping architects with renderings, with responding to RFPs,

937
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: with presentations. I think that a responsible use of AI

938
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: to those ends could be good in the golf architecture industry.

939
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 2: But you know, if you're just using it to do

940
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: your homework, then then that's probably not good.

941
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

942
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 2: Well, the temptation has to be has to be heavy.

943
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see you can see a lot of

944
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: greens committees really going for AI generated uh wispy praise

945
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: of a golf course. Uh. I think this is going

946
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: to happen. It's going to have happen. I know, I'm

947
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: just going to be excited to be here to watch

948
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: the first few. Well, the reality with AI too is

949
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: it gets better and better the more you use it

950
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: and understand how to use it. But the issue is

951
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: there's going to be the first one's probably going to

952
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: be trash, and maybe the second one, may the third one.

953
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: And these things cost so much money that people just

954
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 1: stop trying to use it if it doesn't, if it

955
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: doesn't deliver really good results. But I do agree that AI,

956
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: it's like anything, can make an architect's job a lot

957
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: easier in some ways.

958
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: I would hope that it could be used to focus

959
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 2: architects on creative tasks in some way. Yeah, right, if

960
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 2: we if the great task of the use of AI

961
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,919
Speaker 2: is to figure out what can belong to the AI

962
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: and what has to belong to humans than in golf architecture,

963
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 2: I would love to see if it's going to be used.

964
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 2: I would love to see architects figure out, Okay, what

965
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: portion of this job that I have can I clear

966
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 2: off my plate and give to this engine so that

967
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 2: I can be more creative, be more innovative in you know,

968
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: the other areas of my discipline. And I think if

969
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 2: it can do that, then great. But it's really hard

970
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: to figure out exactly where the AI should stop and

971
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 2: the human should start. Yeah, but that's why we.

972
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: Have to figure out, all right, what's the next?

973
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 2: Okay, what's next? We have got a good question from

974
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: Grey Carlton, who is a young up and coming shaper.

975
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: He says, lots of new builds on great Land these days.

976
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 2: What current architects would you choose to build a great

977
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 2: course on a dead flat site. I think we could

978
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: address thisretty quickly because we kind of have gotten into

979
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 2: some of related issues with a previous question. But what's

980
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: your what's your first thought there?

981
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: Eddie? Oh? And see this is just I hate this question.

982
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 1: This is my least favorite type of question.

983
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 2: Can we speak in generalities?

984
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah?

985
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 2: Can we say that it doesn't have to be a maximalist.

986
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't. I think that your favorite course that you

987
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: talk about on every podcast Talking Stick is Bill Koor

988
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: and Prenshaw's.

989
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,439
Speaker 2: It's become I've become too predictable with the talking stick

990
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 2: talking point.

991
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: That that's a great and that's an example of really

992
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: minimalist architecture on a dead flat property. I think in general,

993
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 1: you got to have somebody that's really creative, depending up

994
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: where where the site is, depending on the climate. If

995
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: it's dead flat and it's sandy, I'd hire like anybody

996
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: because if it's super sandy, you could move stuff around

997
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: and create really uh interesting contours throughout. So you know,

998
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to totally punt here, which is not not

999
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: a great answer.

1000
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: I just you know, I want to see Mike DeFreeze

1001
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: go to town on a dead flat site.

1002
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: All right, there you go. I love I love that

1003
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 1: you gave an answer. I'm punting. I'm being very political,

1004
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: which is podcast.

1005
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: The industry has gotten to you. Andy, I think I

1006
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 2: think you just understandably resists the idea that you would

1007
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: name one person and not name something else. But there

1008
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 2: are many possible candidates who would do an interesting job

1009
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: with the dead flat site, and frankly, I think, Okay.

1010
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 2: The reason I took an interest in this question is

1011
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 2: that a lot of the very best architects at this

1012
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 2: point have spent a lot of time working on pretty

1013
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 2: much nothing but really great sites or high potential sites,

1014
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: at the very least not dead flat sites, and so

1015
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 2: I think one interesting direction is to, you know, look

1016
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: at some of these architects who have been blessed in

1017
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: the land that they've gotten and try to see what

1018
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 2: they would do now with a piece of land that

1019
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 2: wasn't his west.

1020
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you could go down the list of

1021
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: heavy hitter golf architects. I think what you'd like to do,

1022
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: what you'd like to have as a fan of architecture

1023
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: over the period of time is a wide array of

1024
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: varieties and sights. I really like seeing architecture on flat surfaces.

1025
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: To me, as a fan of architecture, it's sometimes more

1026
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: interesting than just the tremendous sight because the the land

1027
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: and does the work. But as somebody going to see stuff,

1028
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: I like to see flat golf courses to see the

1029
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: clever solutions around what they did. Now. Am I saying

1030
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: these are better golf courses than getting the best site

1031
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: in the world. No, but it's it's it's fun and

1032
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: amusing often to see all of the tricks pulled out.

1033
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: That's to me what when you see the great architects

1034
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: work on dead flat uh properties, what they're doing is

1035
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: they're showing you all all of the things they've been

1036
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: thinking about for years.

1037
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the different Yeah.

1038
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes if I tried to build eighteen holes

1039
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: of dead flat land, I'd run out of ideas, absolutely.

1040
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what Bill Cora was worried about it

1041
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 2: at my favorite course, Talking Stick. And the reason I

1042
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 2: talk about Talking Stick all the time is that, like,

1043
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 2: I'm very interested in the question of how an architect

1044
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 2: can be site specific on a bad site, on a

1045
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: supposedly bad site, what can you come up with to

1046
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: still be site specific when the site isn't giving you

1047
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,479
Speaker 2: that much that would usually be considered good for golf.

1048
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 2: And you know, people right now are very concerned about

1049
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 2: freshness in golf architecture or where it's going next, or

1050
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 2: where new ideas are going to come from. We're maybe

1051
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: not going to find new ideas on rolling Duneland right now.

1052
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 2: And naturalist architecture applied to such Douneland. Those are great courses,

1053
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: and I'd like to see as many of them built

1054
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: as possible, honestly, because why not, Like they're they're all

1055
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 2: it always turns out pretty nice.

1056
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: You know, And they're all different because the landscapes and

1057
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: they different.

1058
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, every site is specific in its way. But yeah,

1059
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 2: if we're looking for something really different and really fresh,

1060
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 2: I you know, I want to see a smart site

1061
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 2: specific architect try to apply their site specific philosophy to

1062
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 2: you know, a place that you wouldn't expect to yield

1063
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 2: good golf, you know. And that doesn't mean like reconstructing

1064
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 2: the play, like just denying what the what the side is?

1065
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: It means looking for, Okay, what's interesting here and how

1066
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 2: can we highlight it? And and to me, that's what

1067
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 2: that's what's so interesting about talking stick is that corn

1068
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 2: Crunch actually did that there? All right, next question?

1069
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: All right, this is this is gonna be the last one.

1070
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: We are going to get through four each, Yeah, set

1071
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: out with our best intentions.

1072
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 2: Apologies to the uh the ones left on the cutting

1073
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 2: room floor. I mean, obviously I'm gonna as I usually do,

1074
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to get in the community forum and answer

1075
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: a bunch of questions that we didn't get to, because

1076
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 2: that's that's fun.

1077
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: This is from Bob roll Tella on Twitter. Are there

1078
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: any architectural features or approaches that could be considered as

1079
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: a means of mitigating technolgical advances apart from sheer length? Surely,

1080
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 1: with all the improved ability that comes along with new tech,

1081
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: there might be innovations in golf course architecture to match.

1082
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, come on, golf course architects, keep up, keep up.

1083
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 2: This is a pretty it's a good question. This is

1084
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: a pretty common complaint made by Ron Witten. I'm seeing

1085
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 2: within this question the seeds of a complaint that Ron

1086
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 2: Witten often made in the pages of Golf Digest, where

1087
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 2: he was the architecture editor, and that is that golf

1088
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 2: architects have failed to innovate along with the biggest change

1089
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 2: in the game of golf, which has been equipment technology

1090
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:47,560
Speaker 2: and distance gains, and that instead of that, according to

1091
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 2: Ron Witten, they have just complained about it and said

1092
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 2: the ball should be rolled back, we should roll back

1093
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 2: the clock. And he believed that this was a backward

1094
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: looking stance and not a forward looking stance, and he

1095
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 2: adbhored it. And I get that argument.

1096
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 1: You know.

1097
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 2: The truth is, I'm not sure that there's anything new

1098
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 2: under the sun in golf architecture when it comes to

1099
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 2: combating distance gains. And I could be wrong about this,

1100
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 2: since my job is to kind of react to golf

1101
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 2: architecture as opposed to design new courses. But I think

1102
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 2: that Pete Dye had a lot of good ideas about

1103
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: how to mitigate distance gains in the seventies and eighties.

1104
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 2: He was all about selective narrowness fair ways that kind

1105
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 2: of changed in their dimensions as the hole went on.

1106
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: He was all about tree lines, like lots of trees,

1107
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 2: but paired with interesting angles and diagonals and shot shapes

1108
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 2: and things like that, So trees kind of getting in

1109
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 2: the way of what good players might want to do

1110
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,799
Speaker 2: and therefore limiting the amount that they could just wallop

1111
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 2: away at the ball with their preferred shot shape. He

1112
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 2: used water hazards to thwart pure bombing, right, So water

1113
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 2: hazards would sometimes literally kind of cut off the landing zone.

1114
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 2: And if you want to hit it three hundred and

1115
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 2: twenty yards, you're going to be in the middle of

1116
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 2: this pond. Fine, go for it, you know. And he

1117
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 2: used classic strategic angles, but he just used them kind

1118
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 2: of on a smaller and tighter scale.

1119
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 1: Right.

1120
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 2: That's TPC Sawgrass, that's Harbor Town. That was PGA West

1121
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: in its early iterations. Right, that's what he was doing

1122
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 2: with those courses that he was thinking about distance gains

1123
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 2: and how golf architecture could be used to combat it.

1124
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 2: That's how he did it. The problem with all of

1125
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 2: that is that it made extraordinarily interesting professional courses, but

1126
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 2: a lot of these innovations were not did were not

1127
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 2: good models for other courses that wanted to appeal to

1128
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 2: average golfers. Right, those models were great for t DPC

1129
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 2: Sawgrass and Harbor Town and and PGA West, But once

1130
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 2: you start replicating them, you are going to start getting

1131
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 2: some frustration from average golfers, for whom a lot of

1132
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 2: these factors, like the trees and the narrowness, and the

1133
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 2: and the tight lines and the water hazards. You're going

1134
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 2: to start getting understandable frustration from those golfers about those

1135
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,759
Speaker 2: kinds of features because those features tend to punish average

1136
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 2: golfers a lot more than they punish expert golfers. So

1137
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much there is that golf architecture

1138
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 2: can do to stay ahead of the curve on distance gains.

1139
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 2: And that's why I think there should be a rollback.

1140
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to point out that the innovations

1141
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: are going to hinder playability for all.

1142
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's right. I think it's almost inevitably you know.

1143
01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: I think if you wanted to build a golf course

1144
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: and you said to a designer, the only people that

1145
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: are going to play this golf course are high level players,

1146
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: I think it would look a lot different than what

1147
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 1: everybody gets. Is like, I wanted to challenge the best,

1148
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: but I want everybody to be able to have a

1149
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 1: good time playing. This is effectively the charge that you

1150
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 1: know most golf courses give. And if you removed everybody's

1151
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 1: playing this, I think the golf you'd see, there's a

1152
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: lot of innovation to be done, there'd be a lot

1153
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: of crazy thoughts. It would look so much different than

1154
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 1: what we consider great golf. I you know, Zach Blair,

1155
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who's I think, got a good

1156
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: golf architecture brain. We talked about this and he's like,

1157
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: I just put water everywhere.

1158
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:07,639
Speaker 2: Right, because that's the thing that is a strategic hazard

1159
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 2: of meaning for these guys.

1160
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: If you think about the way that golfers play in

1161
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 1: the modern era, it's all risk averse strategy. What they're

1162
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 1: doing is they are trying to mitigate all risk. So

1163
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: if you wanted to put them in a blender, you

1164
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: put risk everywhere, and you put them in situations where

1165
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: they can't. They have no choice but to take on risk.

1166
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: But that would be miserable, an absolutely miserable experience for

1167
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: a fifteen handicap. It's why one of the things I

1168
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,240
Speaker 1: think would be interesting with the PGA Tour is if

1169
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: they tried to build a modern day, built out championship

1170
01:13:55,479 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 1: stadium golf course. I think that's an interesting idea for

1171
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 1: them to ponder, and people that go play it just

1172
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: understand this is you're going to shoot one hundred and

1173
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: ten and you're not going to have a good time,

1174
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: and people will line up to play it. But what

1175
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 1: the charge to the architect? What every charge to every architect?

1176
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 1: And this is people get frustrated with the Golden age

1177
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: restorations and how they're not holding up to modern technology,

1178
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 1: and let's just use US opens. It's like, well, you know,

1179
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: this club is only hosting a US Open every ten

1180
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 1: to twenty years. And the reason they did the restoration

1181
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: was so that it's more enjoyable for their members to

1182
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: play every day. If you wanted to make really hard

1183
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: golf for pros, you could do that. It's totally feasible

1184
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 1: to do. You just need a bunch of new golf

1185
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: courses because I don't think most people want to play

1186
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:09,440
Speaker 1: what would be really challenging and hold up to modern technology.

1187
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't think everybody would want to play it all

1188
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: the time. And that that's why a rollback makes sense,

1189
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: because it would make a lot more more golf courses,

1190
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 1: make a lot more sense for pro golf because a

1191
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: great example, Pebble Beach has been just completely passed by

1192
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,639
Speaker 1: by technology. And this is what you know. We're gonna

1193
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 1: see EUS open there every five years, and it's just

1194
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:42,759
Speaker 1: like they hit wedges on probably like ten holes, eleven holes.

1195
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 2: Wedge the only defenses you know, the narrow fairway is

1196
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 2: in the rough, which are which are sort of pathetic.

1197
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: Think about it. Wedge on one, yeah, depending on when.

1198
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 1: Wedge on three.

1199
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 2: Maybe a wedge on two maybe no, No, not seriously,

1200
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 2: I don't know that long of a hole and you

1201
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 2: can just blast it down it.

1202
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 1: I don't think. I still it's not a wedge.

1203
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:10,760
Speaker 2: It might be like an eight iron, nine iron maybe

1204
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 2: in a couple of years.

1205
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 1: Wedge on four, wedge on uh, you're sick. A wedge

1206
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 1: on seven, not on eight, not on nine, nine on ten.

1207
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: Then you got on the back and there's a wedge

1208
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: on fifteen sixteen.

1209
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean also, I mean I think pros are

1210
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 2: hitting on wedges on holes that that you'd be stunned

1211
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 2: to see them. I mean, you know this, but that

1212
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 2: we're all stunned to see them hitting wedges on So

1213
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 2: it's not out of the question to me that a

1214
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 2: pro would hit a wedge on nine at Pebble, or

1215
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:45,600
Speaker 2: hit a wedge on ten at Pebble, or hit a

1216
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 2: wedge on thirteen at Pebble like they're they're doing these

1217
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 2: things now.

1218
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: But anyway, maybe this is why they should just play

1219
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: simulator golf, right.

1220
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 2: This should all be the Sofi Center. Yeah, they're great.

1221
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 2: The great new uh, the great new course of the

1222
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 2: game is the endless courses of so.

1223
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 1: We get new golf falls this year for TGL.

1224
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I've I've been hearing some some

1225
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 2: rumblings about the architects responsible, and I'm curious as to

1226
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 2: what's gonna.

1227
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: I know, Piece is back, m Well, of course he's back.

1228
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 2: He was the star. He was the only he was

1229
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 2: the only one who understood the assignment the last time.

1230
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was he was, all right, Garrett, everybody should

1231
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: check out your Designing Golf Podcast. Always a pleasure to

1232
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 1: break down these questions. Uh, I'll probably get in the

1233
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 1: forum answer some bat some of these around too. There's

1234
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: a forum now, we got a for it, we got

1235
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:44,879
Speaker 1: place of bad stuff around with everybody.

1236
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 2: It's been really fun for me. I've I've written a

1237
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 2: lot in the forum in the past couple of days

1238
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 2: and I'm really enjoying it. It might actually make me

1239
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 2: like writing again.

1240
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to start to love writing again too.

1241
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 2: I know it can be hard sometimes, yeah, listen, it

1242
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 2: can be hard. But thank you for having me on

1243
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 2: the pod.

1244
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:17,800
Speaker 1: And always great all right, big thanks for p J

1245
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: Clark for editing producing this podcast. Go check out the

1246
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 1: pro Shop, Proshop dot the Friday dot com, and and

1247
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 1: check out our Black Friday deals. Big thanks for all

1248
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 1: the support. I hope everybody has a happy and say Thanksgiving.