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Speaker 1: Hey everybody and welcome to the Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Gets Weird playlist. This is another one of our quarterly playlists, everyone,

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Speaker 1: that we compile because we found that people like us

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Speaker 1: sort of grouping things and bucketing things and cataloging things

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Speaker 1: into groups of 10 to 12. And I think we

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Speaker 1: have 11 of them this time out. And we're getting

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Speaker 1: started this week with the inaugural episode of the Stuff

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Speaker 1: You Should Know Gets Weird playlist with our episode, What

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Speaker 1: is Collective Hysteria? So please give a listen and enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me,

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Speaker 3: as always, is Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And Jerry's over

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Speaker 3: there to the left. And that makes this Stuff You

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Speaker 3: Should Know.

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Speaker 4: Got the A-team in the hizzy.

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Speaker 3: I call face.

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 3: I'm face.

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Speaker 4: Oh, of course you're face. Look at you. I would

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Speaker 4: be a combination of Murdoch and Mr. T, I think. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, your hair is kind of spiky in the middle today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Jerry, I don't know what she'd be. I guess

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Speaker 4: she'd be the leader. She'd be Hannibal.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: She's smoking a cigar right now.

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Speaker 4: And wearing a black glove.

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Speaker 3: When did you start smoking cigars, Jerry?

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Speaker 4: That's weird.

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Speaker 3: Very timely.

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Speaker 4: I said A-team. I don't want to slag off guest

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Speaker 4: producer Noel. He's not exactly B-team. No. We'll just call

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Speaker 4: ourselves the OGs.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Now that we have that established, we are the OGs.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: We need bowling shirts that say as much on the back.

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Speaker 3: You feeling good?

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Speaker 4: I'm feeling nauseous and dizzy.

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Speaker 3: Oh, well, Chuck, did you happen to see somebody else

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Speaker 3: who is nauseous and dizzy?

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Speaker 4: Well, Jerry was last week, and then a few more

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Speaker 4: people in the office, so I just figured we all

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Speaker 4: had the same thing.

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Speaker 3: All right. I'm going to diagnose this.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 3: It's called collective hysteria, also known, I think... more appropriately,

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Speaker 3: is mass psychogenic disorder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think when you add the word hysteria to this,

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Speaker 3: it takes on certain dimensions that a lot of people

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Speaker 3: could find very objectionable.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: You know, hysterics, hysteria, it's like.

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Speaker 4: Dogs and cats living together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think it has a definite gender-specific connotation

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Speaker 3: to it from over the years. Like, women were supposedly

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Speaker 3: very hysterical. So, the idea of diagnosing somebody as hysterical

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Speaker 3: under any circumstances is kind of a tad amount to

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Speaker 3: patting them on the head.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, here, nice lady, you're just a little hysterical. You

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Speaker 4: just go calm down and bake something. Right.

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Speaker 3: Stop being crazy. No, mass psychogenic disorder instead is just

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Speaker 3: kind of like, whoa, your brain just did something pretty neat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that is the case for mass psychogenic disorder, if

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Speaker 3: you ask me. In this article, Chuck, written by Jacob Silverman.

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Speaker 4: Jeopardy champion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, he won on Jeopardy. That makes

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Speaker 3: him a champion, right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. He wasn't, like, the ultimate champion,

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Speaker 4: but he won a couple of episodes.

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Speaker 3: Right, which is why they should have a word for,

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Speaker 3: I guess, like, champion is, like, the one who won

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Speaker 3: it all.

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Speaker 4: Ken Jennings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or Watson.

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Speaker 4: Who's that?

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Speaker 3: The IBM computer.

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Speaker 4: Oh, well, yeah, sure.

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Speaker 3: So Jeopardy winner Jacob Silverman wrote this article years back,

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Speaker 3: and he did a pretty great job of citing... a, uh,

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Speaker 3: contemporary outbreak of mass psychogenic disorder that had been going

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Speaker 3: on around that time down in Mexico, down Mexico way

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Speaker 3: in Chalco, Mexico at a boarding school there. Uh, it

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Speaker 3: apparently was a girl's boarding school and the girls that

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Speaker 3: went to school, they were ages 12 to 17 and

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden they started, uh, well, there was

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Speaker 3: an outbreak, a weird outbreak. There was vomiting, I believe,

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Speaker 3: trouble walking, um, There was fever. Yeah. That's weird.

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Speaker 4: Nausea.

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Speaker 3: And so the people running this boarding school were like,

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Speaker 3: what's going on? This is not good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And they had no idea. The girls went on Christmas

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Speaker 3: break for 10 days, came back, and the thing just

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Speaker 3: took off again like wildfire.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. 600 of the 3,600 girls showed these symptoms and

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Speaker 4: nobody could figure it out. They did a lot of tests.

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Speaker 4: They brought in people to like check out the facilities. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Because as you'll see, there's a trend there. You know,

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Speaker 4: here in the West, they start to blame it usually

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Speaker 4: on like environmental poisoning of some kind.

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Speaker 3: Right. You know, there's some sort of toxin present that

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Speaker 3: has poisoned everybody.

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Speaker 4: But they didn't find anything there. And eventually they said

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Speaker 4: this is. what'd you call it? Psychosomatic?

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Speaker 3: Mass psychogenic disorder.

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Speaker 4: Okay. Mass psychogenic disorder.

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Speaker 3: But no, that is one of the names. Mass psychogenic disorder,

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Speaker 3: collective hysteria, mass hysteria, or mass psychosomatic reaction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. They're all saying the same thing.

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Speaker 3: They are.

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Speaker 4: Which is you're not, well, I was about to say

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Speaker 4: you're not really sick, but that is not exactly true

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Speaker 4: because that's one thing that differentiates this from something that's

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Speaker 4: just in your head is you actually do manifest physical symptoms.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's this article written by a MD named Timothy F.

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Speaker 3: Jones from the Tennessee Department of Health way back in

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Speaker 3: the heady days of 2000, the year 2000, the future.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And he writes that if you are experiencing mass psychogenic disorder,

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Speaker 3: it is not just in your head. that the symptoms

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Speaker 3: that you have are actually very real. Even though there's

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Speaker 3: no toxic cause, they couldn't find some sort of environmental

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Speaker 3: poisoning or anything like that, the symptoms are extremely real.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's just psychosomatic. It's just basically the brain has been

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Speaker 3: tricked into causing this response.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this has happened. They've documented about 80 cases

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Speaker 4: throughout history, and apparently the National Institutes of Health gets

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Speaker 4: about two cases per week reported.

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Speaker 3: But, um, which is, I mean, like that's, that's way

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Speaker 3: more common than, than you would think.

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Speaker 4: You know? Yeah. I would think there'd be more than 80.

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Speaker 4: Cause I mean, these have happened. If you go back

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Speaker 4: and look at, I mean, there's all sorts of crazy

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Speaker 4: lists on the internet about these cases that date back

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Speaker 4: to like the 14th century.

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Speaker 3: Medieval dancing mania was one of them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. The dancing plague. Yeah. Yeah. That's in there.

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Speaker 3: Uh, the Salem witchcraft trials.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: Or the Salem witchcraft, I guess what led to the

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Speaker 3: trials was, um, supposedly attributed to this kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. One weird thing about this condition is more times

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Speaker 4: than not, it affects females.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And young females, even more specifically, teenagers or even younger.

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Speaker 3: Which is, as far as it goes right now, inexplicable.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of a prickly issue, you know? Like, again,

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Speaker 3: you kind of come back to the idea of calling

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Speaker 3: it hysteria. Yeah. The fact that it does tend to

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Speaker 3: afflict women or girls more than boys is apparently one

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Speaker 3: means of diagnosing psychogenic disorder, mass psychogenic disorder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's like one of the first things they'll say

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Speaker 4: is like all this sickness is happening in this place,

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Speaker 4: this school, wherever. And the doctor will say, is it

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Speaker 4: a bunch of girls? Yeah. And then that will clue

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Speaker 4: them in that, hey, this might be what we're dealing

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Speaker 4: with here.

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Speaker 3: But the problem is no one has any idea why.

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Speaker 3: And there have been explanations of things like, I guess,

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Speaker 3: this is girls' culturally acceptable outlet for raging against the patriarchy.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: Even if they don't necessarily feel that that's what they're doing,

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Speaker 3: this is the symptoms of that. That's one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I thought this was a pretty interesting part. What article?

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Speaker 4: Is that from Slate?

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Speaker 3: There was one called Mass hysteria in upstate New York

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Speaker 3: by Ruth Graham was on slate. That was a good one.

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Speaker 4: It was a really good one. We'll get to that

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Speaker 4: case in a sec. But I thought it was pretty interesting.

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Speaker 4: In one part it says, and this is a quote

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Speaker 4: from someone writing about something, it said, inform, if not

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Speaker 4: in conscious intent, it is to protest the sexual repressiveness,

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Speaker 4: rigid double standard of female teen culture. But they were

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Speaker 4: writing about Beatlemania.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Which is interesting because it sort of has a similar

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Speaker 4: vibe Of young ladies being repressed, not having an outlet.

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Speaker 4: And so they see the Beatles and they go berserk

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Speaker 4: and faint and cry and scream collectively. Whereas boys, they're

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Speaker 4: more prone to just act out if they're not feeling good.

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Speaker 4: Girls are trained to keep things inward. And they also

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Speaker 4: point out that ladies and young ladies are more prone

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Speaker 4: to seek a doctor's help for something. They say that

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Speaker 4: may account for the bias right there.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Like guys just won't go to the doctor.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. You have to be careful, though, in just diagnosing

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Speaker 3: mass psychogenic disorder. You physicians out there who are listening

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Speaker 3: that encounter a case like this, just by basing it

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Speaker 3: on the fact that it is affecting more girls than boys,

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Speaker 3: because there's at least one case in Great Britain where

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Speaker 3: I think girls were afflicted by more than half, more

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Speaker 3: than double the number of girls were afflicted by this.

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Speaker 3: And it turned out that there were tainted cucumbers being

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Speaker 3: served in the lunchroom.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And everyone knows boys hate cucumbers.

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Speaker 3: So they didn't eat any. Right. But this is one

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Speaker 3: of the issues with dealing with mass psychogenic disorder in

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Speaker 3: that it looks and acts a lot like some sort

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Speaker 3: of weird epidemic. That basically it looks like either something

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Speaker 3: like bioterrorism. a rapidly spreading infection, or affection if it's

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Speaker 3: fetal mania, and then acute toxic exposure. That's what it

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Speaker 3: looks like. It's like one person gets sick. This is

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Speaker 3: your index case. And all of a sudden, everyone around

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Speaker 3: them suddenly has the same symptoms.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's, like you said, it's super dangerous to

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Speaker 4: just dismiss that as, oh, it's all in your head,

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Speaker 4: silly little ladies. You can't do that because what if

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Speaker 4: it is something for real? But it's also a double-edged sword,

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Speaker 4: as that doctor pointed out. You start ordering batteries of tests,

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Speaker 4: and it can go both ways. It can, what the

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Speaker 4: old saying is, if you order enough tests, you're going

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Speaker 4: to find something.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So it can fuel that fire, but you also can't

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Speaker 4: not run any tests and just dismiss it. So it's

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Speaker 4: a very fine line that physicians walk when dealing with

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Speaker 4: stuff like this, for sure.

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Speaker 3: Indeed. Apparently, study of mass psychogenic disorder has found that

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Speaker 3: it's more prevalent in isolated communities.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And in situations where there are highly rigid, formalized, structured rules.

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Speaker 4: Like a Catholic school in Mexico.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Or, again, Salem, Massachusetts in the 17th century.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, and apparently between 1973 and 1993, half of

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Speaker 3: all the outbreaks of psychogenic illness took place in schools.

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Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So that's possibly in part due to kids being susceptible

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Speaker 3: to it more.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: But also because of that rigid formalized structure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's also usually a top-down effect, like it'll

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Speaker 4: start with a teacher or an older student, and then

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Speaker 4: the younger students follow suit, which, if you're talking influence,

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Speaker 4: would make sense for sure.

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Speaker 3: There was one very famous case. Apparently, there's not very

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Speaker 3: many actual academic studies on this. Yeah. But there's one

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Speaker 3: that came out of the New England Journal of Medicine

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Speaker 3: that described a case in 1998 in Tennessee where a teacher...

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Speaker 3: noticed some weird gas odor, a gassy odor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like the chemical kind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, not like the guy on the front row tooted.

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Speaker 3: Right, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And she apparently started suffering symptoms. And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: like 180 students and teachers had to go to the

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Speaker 3: emergency room. The school was shut down for two weeks.

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Speaker 3: They did all this environmental testing, couldn't find anything.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And finally- traced it back to a mass psychogenic disorder.

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Speaker 3: That's what did it.

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Speaker 4: And then everyone, in most of these cases, we should

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Speaker 4: point out, everyone starts feeling better.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 4: Like in Mexico and then the school in Tennessee, it's

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Speaker 4: not like they went on to die or anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so in the school in Mexico, these girls were

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Speaker 3: at a boarding school.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They were only allowed to see their parents, I think,

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Speaker 3: like three times a year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they couldn't even call. It's like, it sounds more

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Speaker 4: like a prison. Right.

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Speaker 3: No phone calls. They were allowed letters. When they went home,

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Speaker 3: immediately their symptoms cleared up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The problem is that doesn't automatically say, oh, well, it's

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Speaker 3: obviously mass psychogenic disorder. It could be an environmental toxin

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Speaker 3: that they were being exposed to still.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: At the school and were removed from, but I think the...

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Speaker 3: Definite prognosis is mass psychogenic disorder in this case.

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Speaker 4: That's right. What we're talking about is a sort of

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Speaker 4: version of the nocebo effect, which we've talked about before,

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Speaker 4: and we will get into that right after this break.

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Speaker 4: So the nocebo effect, we talked about that in what?

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Speaker 3: The placebo effect.

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Speaker 4: Oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah. I was... Trying to

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Speaker 4: be more clever. Thought we were more clever than that. Nocebo,

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Speaker 4: I think we said in that other podcast too, is

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Speaker 4: Latin for I shall harm. And that's basically, whereas you

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Speaker 4: take a placebo thinking it's going to help you out,

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Speaker 4: and it does help you out because the mind is powerful.

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Speaker 4: The nocebo effect is thinking something bad will result. Like

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Speaker 4: my teacher's getting sick. I think I feel a little

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Speaker 4: sick too. And then, oh wait, my neighbor's feeling a

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Speaker 4: little sick. I think I'm feeling a little sick too.

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Speaker 3: Or this drug trial that I'm on. I was told

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Speaker 3: that I could, possibly get some sort of gastrointestinal distress. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And even though I've been given a sugar pill, I'm

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Speaker 3: now going, yeah, because of my mind, because of the

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Speaker 3: nocebo effect.

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Speaker 4: There was a famous experiment or case from 1886 where

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Speaker 4: there was a woman who had a rose allergy and

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Speaker 4: they showed her an artificial rose and she began to,

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Speaker 4: I guess it was convincing, and she began to have

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Speaker 4: her allergic reaction And they said, aha, it's fake. And

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Speaker 4: you're faking. And she said, oh, well, I think I'm

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Speaker 4: feeling better now. And supposedly that cured her of her

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Speaker 4: real allergy to real roses.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't find a lot to back that up. But

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Speaker 4: it is a story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, no. I mean, it was in, I can't

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Speaker 3: remember the journal.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it really was?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a real deal thing. And I didn't

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Speaker 3: get to the bottom of why. They presented this woman

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Speaker 3: with a fake rose or whatever, but they definitely didn't.

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Speaker 3: This definitely happened. Yeah. And even the author of the

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Speaker 3: study was saying, like, this woman, she wasn't faking.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: It was like she had real symptoms. Sure.

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Speaker 4: Hives are hives.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 4: You can see those.

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Speaker 3: I think they call it like a rose cold or

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Speaker 3: something like that. You can get, you know, stuffy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Your eyes are watering, your nose is running, that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing. And what's interesting is some researchers have studied

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Speaker 3: the nocebo effect, and they basically have isolated this chemical

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Speaker 3: that gets released when the nocebo effect's going on. And again,

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Speaker 3: we should say it's not just making your nose runny

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Speaker 3: or releasing histamines or anything like that. It's pain, too.

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Speaker 3: You can experience pain even though nothing's there to give

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Speaker 3: you pain just because of the nocebo effect. What they

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Speaker 3: found was a, I guess, a hormone, I believe. Are

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Speaker 3: you ready? I'm going to try this one. Cholecystokinin.

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Speaker 4: That sounds great.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, man.

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Speaker 4: I haven't looked at the word, but it sounds right.

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Speaker 3: Cholecystokinin.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Do you see it now?

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's totally right.

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Speaker 3: I totally did. So it's a hormone, right? And it

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Speaker 3: gets released, and it actually helps you experience pain. So

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Speaker 3: it's a nasty little hormone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But they found in testing with the nocebo effect that

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Speaker 3: if you block this, you can also block the nocebo effect.

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Speaker 3: So that proves two things.

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Speaker 4: Does that block pain though? Yes. Like your pain receptors? Yes.

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Speaker 4: So does that mean if you slam your hand in

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Speaker 4: a door, you won't feel it?

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Speaker 3: If you can block this.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So if you can block cholecystokinin.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yes. It will keep you from hypersensitivity to pain, I believe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And this guy named Fabrizio Benedetti, who I think was

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Speaker 3: also in the strokes, back in 1997. There was a Fabrizio, right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He was testing out the nocebo effect and found that

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Speaker 3: if he told people that he was giving them an injection,

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Speaker 3: which is a pretty cruel test, but effective. Yeah. These

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Speaker 3: post-op people who had just come out of surgery were

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Speaker 3: given an injection and told this injection is going to

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Speaker 3: increase your pain in 30 minutes. I'm sorry, we have

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Speaker 3: to give it to you. It's part of the procedure.

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Speaker 3: He gave some people an injection of saline and they

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Speaker 3: reported an increase in pain.

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Speaker 4: And they all went behind the two-way mirror and laughed. Right.

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Speaker 3: They're like, what a chump.

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Speaker 4: Look at him writhing.

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Speaker 3: And then they gave somebody like the other group, the

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Speaker 3: control group, a chemical, an injection that blocks that pain,

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Speaker 3: but they were told that it was going to increase

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Speaker 3: their pain.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: But they were given a chemical that blocks cholecystokinin and

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Speaker 3: the nocebo effect didn't take place. They didn't report an

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Speaker 3: increase in pain.

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Speaker 4: Even though they were told they would. Yes. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So this guy's saying like the nocebo effect is real.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like when they say it's not just in your head.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: You're experiencing the same thing as if you were experiencing

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Speaker 3: somebody stabbing you.

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Speaker 4: Well, what it is real, you know, that's when you

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Speaker 4: have to start asking yourself those deep philosophical questions. Right. Interesting. Um, there's, uh,

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Speaker 4: another case that's, have you ever seen the movie safe?

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Speaker 4: The Todd Haynes movie with Julianne Moore?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: It's from like, uh, the mid nineties. And she played

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Speaker 4: a lady that, um, started to have environmental sickness, um,

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Speaker 4: just in the air. And she's got sort of like increasingly, um,

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Speaker 4: crazy as the movie went on as far as scrubbing

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Speaker 4: things and locking herself in her house and making her

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Speaker 4: house a clean environment.

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Speaker 3: Sounds great.

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Speaker 4: It was good. And there's a true story, though, of

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Speaker 4: a lady in London named Debbie Bird. She's a health

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Speaker 4: spa manager that says that she's allergic to EMF, electromagnetic fields.

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Speaker 4: And it's an actual thing now. You know, there's more

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Speaker 4: than her claiming it's called ES, electromagnetic sensitivity, where she has...

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Speaker 4: basically transformed her house. She painted it black. She said

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Speaker 4: she's allergic to computers, cell phones, microwaves. She had her

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Speaker 4: house rewired to make it basically EMF free. She and

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Speaker 4: her husband sleep under a silver plated mosquito net to

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Speaker 4: keep out radio waves and covered all her windows with

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Speaker 4: protective films. And she said she's feeling a lot better now.

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Speaker 3: So I saw that ES, electromagnetic sensitivity, that if you

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Speaker 3: expose somebody to an electromagnetic field and then just tell

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Speaker 3: them that you are and don't, they have the same reaction,

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Speaker 3: which would suggest that it's nocebo.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's super fascinating because you see cases like this

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Speaker 4: from that to like gluten sensitivity becoming a big thing now.

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Speaker 4: And people, some people contend that, well, it's maybe a

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Speaker 4: collective hysteria going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: If you think you're going to be sensitive to gluten,

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Speaker 4: then you're going to be sensitive to things that contain gluten.

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Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that, people, because that's a very

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Speaker 4: hot topic.

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Speaker 3: Sure it is.

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Speaker 4: But some people have claimed that.

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Speaker 3: Well, we'll talk a little bit more about things that

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Speaker 3: exacerbate the mass psychogenic disorder and the nocebo effect right

433
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Speaker 3: after this. Stuff you should know. Stuff you should know. So, Chuck,

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Speaker 3: back in 2007 in New Zealand, a drug called L-troxin.

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Speaker 3: It was a pretty widespread drug in New Zealand. It's

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Speaker 3: a hormone replacement drug. And it was the only one

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Speaker 3: that the government would pay for. So most people who

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Speaker 3: were on this hormone replacement therapy were using L-troxin. And

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Speaker 3: it had been that way for, like, decades.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It was just an established drug. GlaxoSmithKline.

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Speaker 4: What was it for, though?

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Speaker 3: Hormone replacement.

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Speaker 4: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 3: GlaxoSmithKline.com. I think just those, there's no welcome involved, changed

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Speaker 3: just the outer, the inner qualities of it, like the

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Speaker 3: shape of the pill, the color. And I think that's

448
00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:50,740
Speaker 3: about it. But the active ingredient was exactly the same

449
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,210
Speaker 3: in 2007. And when they released it, all of a sudden,

450
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Speaker 3: some reports of bad side effects were starting to trickle in.

451
00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:03,610
Speaker 3: And the government was like, wait, what's going on here?

452
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,300
Speaker 3: It got a little bit of media attention and more

453
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,500
Speaker 3: reports started trickling in.

454
00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:09,780
Speaker 4: Yeah.

455
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,380
Speaker 3: And then the media attention grew and the reports grew

456
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 3: and grew. And apparently the reporting of adverse effects of

457
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,980
Speaker 3: L-troxin increased 2,000 fold in a year and a half.

458
00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:24,310
Speaker 4: Because of the look of the pill.

459
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:25,730
Speaker 3: Because of the look of the pill.

460
00:22:25,910 --> 00:22:26,350
Speaker 4: Yeah.

461
00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:28,310
Speaker 3: They went back and studied this and they found that

462
00:22:28,369 --> 00:22:32,780
Speaker 3: in areas where there was more reporting about these adverse

463
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 3: effects being reported for L-troxin, the more adverse effects were

464
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 3: being reported in that area. And that kind of reveals

465
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:45,179
Speaker 3: one of the risk factors for mass psychogenic disorder is

466
00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:49,450
Speaker 3: the media. It's actually spread through the media most easily.

467
00:22:49,910 --> 00:22:52,290
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have a point, though. I mean, I know

468
00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:54,609
Speaker 4: in this article, too, it points out that pills that

469
00:22:54,650 --> 00:22:58,890
Speaker 4: are blue and green are usually associated with drowsiness. Pills

470
00:22:58,910 --> 00:23:02,859
Speaker 4: that are orange or yellow are are not, and I

471
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 4: don't know if that's why they market it that way

472
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 4: or if it's the opposite, is we just see it

473
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 4: that way because of products like NyQuil and DayQuil. But

474
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 4: the one that makes you sleepy is green and blue,

475
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 4: and the one that keeps you awake, or not keep

476
00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 4: you awake, but doesn't make you drowsy is orange.

477
00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:18,609
Speaker 3: I thought about it. I think, I mean, what do

478
00:23:18,619 --> 00:23:22,629
Speaker 3: you associate with, like, daytime, sunrise, yellow, orange, red?

479
00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:23,550
Speaker 4: It totally makes sense.

480
00:23:23,730 --> 00:23:27,410
Speaker 3: What do you associate with nighttime? Like, something tranquil, like blue.

481
00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:28,250
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.

482
00:23:28,609 --> 00:23:32,790
Speaker 3: Yeah, scotch amber. Uh, yeah, you, I mean, you think of, uh,

483
00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:34,909
Speaker 3: that's what I, I, I think it came from, I

484
00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:38,550
Speaker 3: think the pills came after the association rather than the

485
00:23:38,590 --> 00:23:39,230
Speaker 3: other way around.

486
00:23:39,570 --> 00:23:43,510
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think I even, like when I get a

487
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:46,670
Speaker 4: prescription for something, when I see the pill, I make

488
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:48,790
Speaker 4: a judgment on it before I've even had it just

489
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:50,730
Speaker 4: by saying, wow, look at that thing. It's heavy.

490
00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:51,150
Speaker 3: Yeah.

491
00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:54,149
Speaker 4: That's a horse pill or that's a capsule with, uh,

492
00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:58,820
Speaker 4: you know, powdery stuff inside that's different than the chalky one.

493
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,970
Speaker 4: It's you. I think you just make an association. I

494
00:24:00,990 --> 00:24:03,909
Speaker 4: don't think I have any preconceived notions on what a

495
00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:05,050
Speaker 4: larger pill will do to me.

496
00:24:05,369 --> 00:24:05,530
Speaker 3: Right.

497
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:07,990
Speaker 4: Or a capsule will do to me other than a tablet.

498
00:24:08,030 --> 00:24:10,910
Speaker 4: But I think it's interesting, though, how you make these

499
00:24:11,130 --> 00:24:11,790
Speaker 4: judgment calls.

500
00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 3: But without even thinking about it.

501
00:24:14,290 --> 00:24:14,850
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

502
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:18,300
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, like you probably don't sit there

503
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: and look at a pill in your hand. You just

504
00:24:20,540 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 3: take it and just make some sort of almost unconscious judgment.

505
00:24:25,450 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: judgments about it.

506
00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:28,130
Speaker 4: Yeah, it may remind you of another pill that helped

507
00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:29,410
Speaker 4: you that you're not even remembering.

508
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:30,990
Speaker 3: Exactly. So that would be placebo.

509
00:24:31,210 --> 00:24:31,410
Speaker 4: Yeah.

510
00:24:31,550 --> 00:24:37,990
Speaker 3: That's great. Nocebo effect poses a lot of problems. For instance,

511
00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:42,670
Speaker 3: there was a study, I think, in the 90s that

512
00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:45,770
Speaker 3: found that women who believed that they were prone to

513
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:49,900
Speaker 3: heart disease were four times likelier to die of heart

514
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,540
Speaker 3: disease than than women who didn't believe they were prone

515
00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: to it, even though they had all the exact same

516
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: risk factors, basically the same risk factors. There was nothing

517
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,469
Speaker 3: differentiating these women aside from a belief that they were

518
00:25:01,490 --> 00:25:04,469
Speaker 3: going to die from heart disease or a belief that

519
00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:09,910
Speaker 3: they weren't. And that led to a four-fold increase in

520
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:13,570
Speaker 3: deaths from that, just basically from a belief is what

521
00:25:13,609 --> 00:25:14,330
Speaker 3: it suggests.

522
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:17,129
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it's sort of like the, I know it's

523
00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:19,690
Speaker 4: kind of cheesy, but the PMA, the positive mental attitude,

524
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:24,110
Speaker 4: I think we've all know someone who walks around saying, oh,

525
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,649
Speaker 4: so-and-so's sick. Oh, I know I'm going to get it.

526
00:25:26,109 --> 00:25:28,250
Speaker 4: I just know I'm going to get sick. Or, you know,

527
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:29,909
Speaker 4: I just know I'm going to get cancer because it

528
00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:32,430
Speaker 4: runs in my family. I think that has an effect

529
00:25:32,510 --> 00:25:32,810
Speaker 4: on things.

530
00:25:33,030 --> 00:25:35,210
Speaker 3: I have to agree. I know some of our more

531
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:38,530
Speaker 3: skeptical listeners are pulling their hair out right now, but

532
00:25:38,990 --> 00:25:41,450
Speaker 3: I totally agree with you. When we did our show

533
00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:44,890
Speaker 3: in Toronto, on the way back, Yumi and I flew

534
00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:47,730
Speaker 3: out of Buffalo. And I was feeling a little down,

535
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,260
Speaker 3: but like at the point where I feel like you

536
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: can talk yourself into staying healthy.

537
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

538
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:53,980
Speaker 2: Yeah.

539
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:56,540
Speaker 3: Positive mental attitude, I guess is what you call it.

540
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,939
Speaker 3: But we were leaving right at about dusk and the

541
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 3: sun was just beaming through the windows and illuminating every

542
00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 3: single microbe, visible microbe in the air. I could see

543
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: them like just going into my nose and my mouth.

544
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:15,619
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I couldn't stop. Like I couldn't I

545
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,239
Speaker 3: was like, I'm not going to get sick. I'm not

546
00:26:17,270 --> 00:26:19,270
Speaker 3: going to get sick. And man, did I ever get sick.

547
00:26:19,369 --> 00:26:19,590
Speaker 4: Yeah.

548
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:23,830
Speaker 3: But I noticed that right when we took off and no,

549
00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:27,550
Speaker 3: you know what it was? Somebody shut one of their, um, their, uh,

550
00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:29,350
Speaker 3: window covers. Yeah. Yeah.

551
00:26:29,369 --> 00:26:29,690
Speaker 4: The shade.

552
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:32,530
Speaker 3: Shade. Exactly. Is the word that I was looking for.

553
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:35,689
Speaker 3: Somebody shut their shade and I couldn't see it anymore.

554
00:26:35,790 --> 00:26:38,970
Speaker 3: And I immediately started to feel less symptomatic.

555
00:26:39,109 --> 00:26:40,110
Speaker 4: Wow. Immediately.

556
00:26:40,150 --> 00:26:41,410
Speaker 3: It was like turning off a light.

557
00:26:41,609 --> 00:26:41,810
Speaker 4: Yeah.

558
00:26:41,950 --> 00:26:44,310
Speaker 3: And I still got sick. But I was just drowning

559
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:47,550
Speaker 3: in basically what my brain was interpreting is like being

560
00:26:47,609 --> 00:26:50,859
Speaker 3: assaulted by foreign invaders, which I am all the time.

561
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:51,230
Speaker 4: Sure.

562
00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: But I normally can't see them.

563
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:54,780
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I do that all the time when I

564
00:26:54,820 --> 00:26:58,540
Speaker 4: open my the curtains in the bedroom and I'll see

565
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,139
Speaker 4: in the morning, I'll see that stuff in the air.

566
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 4: And I just think, oh, man, that's what I'm walking around.

567
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:02,700
Speaker 3: Right.

568
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:03,700
Speaker 4: Breathing in. Breathing.

569
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:03,980
Speaker 3: Yeah.

570
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:07,010
Speaker 4: Dog hair and cat hair and. Emily hair.

571
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,990
Speaker 3: So your lungs are just chock full of it. So

572
00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:16,649
Speaker 3: one of the problems this poses, Chuck, for physicians is

573
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 3: that we expect doctors or we want doctors to be transparent,

574
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,100
Speaker 3: to not lie to us.

575
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,219
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've talked a lot about this lately, I feel like.

576
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,070
Speaker 3: Yeah. We've talked a lot about diseases. Some of our

577
00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:33,369
Speaker 3: hypochondriac listeners have been like, please stop talking about diseases

578
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:37,590
Speaker 3: because now I've got morgulons. I'm going to have like

579
00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:39,949
Speaker 3: some sort of toxic exposure.

580
00:27:39,970 --> 00:27:40,750
Speaker 4: Toxoplasmosis.

581
00:27:40,790 --> 00:27:43,670
Speaker 3: Yep. And then very soon, leprosy.

582
00:27:45,150 --> 00:27:45,710
Speaker 4: Spoiler.

583
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: So the problem is, is if you tell somebody that's

584
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,250
Speaker 3: going into surgery, hey, by the way, Um, you know, you,

585
00:27:55,710 --> 00:27:58,010
Speaker 3: you might have trouble walking.

586
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:58,510
Speaker 4: Yeah.

587
00:27:58,530 --> 00:28:01,770
Speaker 3: You might feel nauseous for the next six months. You

588
00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:04,270
Speaker 3: like all this stuff that could be associated with, which

589
00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:05,690
Speaker 3: we demand from our doctors.

590
00:28:05,780 --> 00:28:05,990
Speaker 4: Yeah.

591
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: It's been shown that if you are fearful or in

592
00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 3: despair going into surgery, that's associated with longer healing times

593
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:16,380
Speaker 3: and a higher risk of postoperative infection.

594
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

595
00:28:16,940 --> 00:28:20,780
Speaker 3: Right. So if you have the nocebo effect where doctors

596
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: are saying, Okay, if I tell somebody, and it's been

597
00:28:23,540 --> 00:28:27,510
Speaker 3: proven time after time that in drug trials, people who

598
00:28:27,570 --> 00:28:30,910
Speaker 3: are still are given placebo will drop out of drug

599
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:36,290
Speaker 3: trials because they're experiencing these negative side effects, even though

600
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:39,070
Speaker 3: they're given the sugar pill. So if you're a doctor

601
00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:42,750
Speaker 3: and you know that you are telling somebody something that

602
00:28:42,970 --> 00:28:45,770
Speaker 3: ultimately may end up harming them, and yet you've sworn

603
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:48,710
Speaker 3: an oath to do no harm, you've got a conundrum

604
00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:52,010
Speaker 3: going on right now. And that's what the nocebo effect poses.

605
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:55,770
Speaker 3: It's the problem the nocebo effect poses for modern physicians.

606
00:28:55,790 --> 00:28:57,860
Speaker 3: Like how much should they tell you? If you're going

607
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,860
Speaker 3: to tell somebody that they're going to feel nauseous for

608
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,700
Speaker 3: six months, even though they probably won't, should you tell

609
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,180
Speaker 3: them and give them a chance to basically have the

610
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:09,340
Speaker 3: psychosomatic symptom?

611
00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 4: Or tell them they're going to feel great.

612
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:13,940
Speaker 3: Well, that's another one. Somebody says the solution to this

613
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,380
Speaker 3: is just frame it differently.

614
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:15,740
Speaker 1: Right.

615
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,620
Speaker 3: Like, don't say there's a chance you're going to have

616
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,060
Speaker 3: nausea for six months. Say half of a percent of

617
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,380
Speaker 3: patients who go through the same procedure that you're about

618
00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:30,970
Speaker 3: to go through have nausea for six months. 99.5% don't.

619
00:29:31,370 --> 00:29:31,590
Speaker 4: Right.

620
00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:34,970
Speaker 3: You're giving them the same information. It's just framed more positively.

621
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:37,790
Speaker 4: Yeah. And that one doctor who wrote the article on

622
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:43,930
Speaker 4: collectivist area said what he recommends is not naming the illness.

623
00:29:44,330 --> 00:29:47,230
Speaker 4: He said that can help out because as soon as

624
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:52,180
Speaker 4: you give something a name, then... It just instantly, you know,

625
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 4: you have something you can call it and everyone's calling

626
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,590
Speaker 4: it that or the media picks up on it. Right.

627
00:29:55,950 --> 00:29:56,530
Speaker 4: And it's a thing.

628
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:59,870
Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's actually, again, one of the risk factors

629
00:30:00,110 --> 00:30:03,750
Speaker 3: in the spread of mass psychogenic illness is the larger

630
00:30:03,810 --> 00:30:07,050
Speaker 3: the response, the emergency medical response to it. Yeah. And

631
00:30:07,090 --> 00:30:10,310
Speaker 3: then hence the larger the media response to it, the

632
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:13,210
Speaker 3: larger the outbreak tends to be. It's called line of

633
00:30:13,270 --> 00:30:17,510
Speaker 3: sight exposure. Yeah. Just knowing somebody is sick or seeing

634
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:19,990
Speaker 3: somebody sick can give you the same symptoms.

635
00:30:20,290 --> 00:30:22,010
Speaker 4: I'm sure if you see a news story that all

636
00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:25,530
Speaker 4: the other news agencies are running that says there's been

637
00:30:25,570 --> 00:30:29,910
Speaker 4: some weird chemical leak in the air in Atlanta, people

638
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:33,410
Speaker 4: are going to start walking around and coughing and saying,

639
00:30:33,490 --> 00:30:35,870
Speaker 4: I'm not feeling so good. I have a bitter taste

640
00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:36,530
Speaker 4: in my mouth.

641
00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:38,130
Speaker 3: There's microbes everywhere.

642
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 4: Well, here's a case from that article you sent that

643
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 4: I think is super fascinating. The one in upstate New York.

644
00:30:45,460 --> 00:30:49,770
Speaker 4: Because it is not a rash or a cough or nausea,

645
00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:55,470
Speaker 4: it is Tourette syndrome. A 16-year-old young lady named Lori Bronwell,

646
00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:58,090
Speaker 4: what year was this? A couple years ago?

647
00:30:58,350 --> 00:31:00,979
Speaker 3: Yeah, not too long ago. I think 2012.

648
00:31:00,980 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 4: In Corinth, New York, was... At her school's homecoming dance

649
00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:09,340
Speaker 4: and lost consciousness. This is after she had headbanged at

650
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:09,900
Speaker 4: a concert.

651
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,460
Speaker 3: Sorry, man. I thought you were going to leap out

652
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,380
Speaker 3: like the best part.

653
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was headbanging at a concert. I wish I

654
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:15,940
Speaker 4: knew what concert that was so bad. Me too.

655
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: I didn't find it anywhere.

656
00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:21,900
Speaker 4: Apparently passed out there and had passing outfits. Involuntary twitching

657
00:31:21,940 --> 00:31:27,330
Speaker 4: and clapping started, twisting her hair, fluttering her fingers. Hey, hey, hey.

658
00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:30,390
Speaker 4: Starting stuff like that. Yeah. And the doctor said, you

659
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: know what? You've got Tourette's syndrome. So Tourette's syndrome is,

660
00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 4: we've had a podcast on it.

661
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: It's a real thing.

662
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,580
Speaker 4: It's not psychosomatic. But since that time, 14 other students

663
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:46,350
Speaker 4: along with her, 13 girls and one boy started exhibiting

664
00:31:46,510 --> 00:31:49,310
Speaker 4: at Leroy Junior High School. I'm sorry, Junior Senior High

665
00:31:49,330 --> 00:31:51,610
Speaker 4: School started coming down with Tourette's.

666
00:31:51,690 --> 00:31:53,530
Speaker 3: Right, which is not contagious.

667
00:31:53,650 --> 00:31:57,110
Speaker 4: It is not contagious at all. Erin Brockovich got on

668
00:31:57,130 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 4: the case, famous environmental activist. And she said, no, I

669
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,140
Speaker 4: think this is, got to do with this train derailment

670
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,060
Speaker 4: from 1970 that dumped cyanide all over this town. And

671
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:14,100
Speaker 4: I didn't see where they found any legitimate effects.

672
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:14,340
Speaker 2: Right.

673
00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: Again, that's the confounding thing about mass psychogenic disorder is

674
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,900
Speaker 3: that it is still possible that there is some weird

675
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,050
Speaker 3: toxin in the environment that is causing this. Like maybe

676
00:32:27,090 --> 00:32:29,770
Speaker 3: there was exposure to cyanide that got in these people's

677
00:32:29,850 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: brains and all gave them Tourette. And if you stand

678
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: back and look at it, you're like, Tourette syndrome isn't contagious.

679
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,180
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that you can't all come down with

680
00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:44,310
Speaker 3: Tourette syndrome from exposure to a toxin. It's just still,

681
00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:46,430
Speaker 3: it's this X factor that's out there that you can't

682
00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:48,470
Speaker 3: just necessarily rule out with confidence.

683
00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:51,850
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I believe in that case too, those 14

684
00:32:51,850 --> 00:32:53,670
Speaker 4: students didn't end up with Tourette syndrome.

685
00:32:54,490 --> 00:32:57,810
Speaker 3: That was a good episode, man. Loved Tourette syndrome one.

686
00:32:58,050 --> 00:32:58,910
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's an oldie.

687
00:32:59,050 --> 00:32:59,250
Speaker 3: Yeah.

688
00:32:59,470 --> 00:33:00,050
Speaker 4: Oldie but a goodie.

689
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:02,820
Speaker 3: And it all came from headbanging.

690
00:33:04,060 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 4: That's how it started.

691
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: That mess.

692
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:06,580
Speaker 4: At a Nickelback show.

693
00:33:08,260 --> 00:33:12,940
Speaker 3: Yeah, because Corinth is near Canada. Canada doesn't let Nickelback

694
00:33:13,050 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 3: out any longer.

695
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:17,710
Speaker 4: Oh, really? Are they caged in there? Yeah. Nice. There's

696
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:19,810
Speaker 4: another case of the toxic lady. Did you hear this one?

697
00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:23,270
Speaker 4: In Riverside, California, a woman named Gloria Ramirez.

698
00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:24,510
Speaker 3: Yeah.

699
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:27,750
Speaker 4: She was dubbed the toxic lady in 1994. She had

700
00:33:27,790 --> 00:33:30,660
Speaker 4: cervical cancer and was being treated and all the medical

701
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:34,060
Speaker 4: staff started to get sick that was treating her. This

702
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 4: sounds gross, but they said her body exuded a garlicky,

703
00:33:37,030 --> 00:33:40,830
Speaker 4: fruity smell, and her blood had flecks of what looked

704
00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:43,810
Speaker 4: like paper, which sounds kind of like Morgulans, actually.

705
00:33:44,810 --> 00:33:44,990
Speaker 1: Nice.

706
00:33:45,250 --> 00:33:45,630
Speaker 4: You like that?

707
00:33:45,770 --> 00:33:46,850
Speaker 3: Yeah.

708
00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:50,870
Speaker 4: And they said that most of the people that got

709
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: sick while treating her were women, more women than men,

710
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 4: and they all took a blood test and came back normal,

711
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,590
Speaker 4: and the health department said, Mass hysteria.

712
00:33:59,810 --> 00:34:02,370
Speaker 3: So that's funny because I looked, I remembered that story

713
00:34:02,410 --> 00:34:04,510
Speaker 3: and I was like, I wonder if that was mass hysteria.

714
00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:06,670
Speaker 3: And I looked it up and I found that no,

715
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:08,010
Speaker 3: it was an environmental toxin.

716
00:34:08,110 --> 00:34:08,549
Speaker 4: Oh, it was?

717
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:09,529
Speaker 3: That's what I found.

718
00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:11,299
Speaker 4: So they called it mass hysteria at the time and

719
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 4: then later found out?

720
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,060
Speaker 3: I think like a year or two later, she was

721
00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: using some sort of salve or something on her skin.

722
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 3: And they think that it interacted with her biochemistry and

723
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: really did produce toxic gas.

724
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: She said it may be this fruit garlic salve.

725
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: Right, exactly.

726
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,259
Speaker 2: Exactly.

727
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 3: That's interacting badly with my pancreas.

728
00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:32,890
Speaker 4: Oh, well, this list needs to be updated.

729
00:34:33,070 --> 00:34:36,910
Speaker 3: Dude, that is a fascinating case. It is. People got

730
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:38,469
Speaker 3: really sick from that.

731
00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:40,149
Speaker 4: I think I remember hearing about that, too.

732
00:34:40,410 --> 00:34:40,569
Speaker 1: Yeah.

733
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:42,290
Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad they found a real cause in that case.

734
00:34:42,310 --> 00:34:45,770
Speaker 3: From what I understand. But that's the point. Right. You

735
00:34:45,810 --> 00:34:49,029
Speaker 3: can say, well, obviously, women were more affected than men.

736
00:34:49,290 --> 00:34:49,550
Speaker 4: Yeah.

737
00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:52,610
Speaker 3: Right? Well, is that because there's more women in the

738
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: nursing profession and there were more nurses in the room?

739
00:34:55,060 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe.

740
00:34:55,420 --> 00:34:55,580
Speaker 1: Maybe.

741
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,620
Speaker 3: There's a lot of different things you have to take

742
00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 3: into account before you just write it off. Sometimes it

743
00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:01,940
Speaker 3: is real, like sick building syndrome.

744
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:02,739
Speaker 1: Yeah.

745
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,510
Speaker 3: That's a tough one because after the OPEC oil embargo,

746
00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:13,089
Speaker 3: apparently people started designing buildings to be more airtight. So

747
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:15,990
Speaker 3: your ventilation system was really important.

748
00:35:16,050 --> 00:35:16,270
Speaker 1: Yeah.

749
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:20,140
Speaker 3: And these buildings haven't aged necessarily very well. So the

750
00:35:20,180 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 3: ventilation system is not doing what it's supposed to any longer.

751
00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:26,340
Speaker 3: And so they think possibly that's leading to what we

752
00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 3: know as sick building syndrome, which is malaise.

753
00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 4: It's when you don't feel good when you go to work.

754
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: Exactly.

755
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 4: Which is everybody.

756
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,940
Speaker 3: But some studies have found like, no, that is the

757
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:37,140
Speaker 3: better predictor of sick building syndrome.

758
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:37,330
Speaker 1: Yeah.

759
00:35:37,690 --> 00:35:42,710
Speaker 3: Is job stress or job dissatisfaction. Yeah. If you have

760
00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:44,509
Speaker 3: a building full of people who don't like their jobs,

761
00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:45,989
Speaker 3: you're going to have a building full of people with

762
00:35:46,050 --> 00:35:48,509
Speaker 3: sick building syndrome. But if you go on to say

763
00:35:48,570 --> 00:35:51,980
Speaker 3: like a local government's website or whatever, and you look at,

764
00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:54,930
Speaker 3: Sick building syndrome. It's treated as a real thing.

765
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, it definitely affects your gastrointestinal like stress does.

766
00:35:59,060 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 3: Also, apparently it can set off bouts of asthma.

767
00:36:02,140 --> 00:36:02,859
Speaker 4: Yeah.

768
00:36:03,020 --> 00:36:04,580
Speaker 3: Which is another reason why they think it might have

769
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,460
Speaker 3: something to do with like volatile organic compounds in the

770
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,580
Speaker 3: ventilation system. Or new carpeting, that kind of stuff.

771
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:13,140
Speaker 4: Yeah. Off-gassing, man. You smell that stuff when you open

772
00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: up a new product, right?

773
00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:14,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

774
00:36:15,260 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: There's also the dancing plague, which we mentioned briefly.

775
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: Tell me about it.

776
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:26,150
Speaker 4: Frowtrophia. July 14th, 1518, went out on the streets of Strasbourg, France,

777
00:36:26,190 --> 00:36:29,370
Speaker 4: and started dancing, even though there was no music, and

778
00:36:29,489 --> 00:36:32,410
Speaker 4: dancing like a maniac for three straight days. And all

779
00:36:32,430 --> 00:36:34,850
Speaker 4: these people started dancing with her, saying this is a

780
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:38,670
Speaker 4: good time. It said within a month, 100 people were

781
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:44,610
Speaker 4: dancing with her and couldn't stop. And hyperventilating, hallucinating, some

782
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,020
Speaker 4: dropped dead of heart attack and stroke and exhaustion. And

783
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,450
Speaker 4: the authorities said, let's just hire a band. And let

784
00:36:51,469 --> 00:36:52,569
Speaker 4: them dance it out.

785
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

786
00:36:52,940 --> 00:36:54,910
Speaker 4: Because they've got the hot blood is what they called it.

787
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:55,379
Speaker 3: All right.

788
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,299
Speaker 4: And so they did. And a lot of people died

789
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 4: as a result. It said 400 people in the end

790
00:37:02,860 --> 00:37:06,700
Speaker 4: were struck. I don't think they died, but were dancers.

791
00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: Right.

792
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,779
Speaker 4: And then it just stopped. And that's when they blame,

793
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 4: a lot of people blame on ergot poisoning, which we've

794
00:37:12,940 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 4: mentioned before.

795
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:15,140
Speaker 3: I always go with ergot poisoning.

796
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, back then.

797
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: Those people were clearly tripping on something.

798
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:18,510
Speaker 4: They got the hot blood.

799
00:37:18,989 --> 00:37:21,310
Speaker 3: But what it sounds like you just described is basically

800
00:37:21,350 --> 00:37:23,670
Speaker 3: how Tom Hanks invented jogging in the 70s.

801
00:37:24,070 --> 00:37:24,450
Speaker 4: Yogging?

802
00:37:24,750 --> 00:37:24,950
Speaker 3: Yeah.

803
00:37:25,210 --> 00:37:25,430
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah?

804
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:28,420
Speaker 3: He just started running and people started following him.

805
00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:32,340
Speaker 4: I wish that part had been cut out of that movie. Oh, really? Yeah,

806
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,779
Speaker 4: I thought that it was a weird thing that should

807
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,180
Speaker 4: have been on the editing room floor. It really kind

808
00:37:38,219 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 4: of derailed things for a while for me. Yeah. I

809
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 4: don't think that movie's aged well, though.

810
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,660
Speaker 3: I haven't seen it in forever.

811
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 4: Other people say, though, that it was Sydenham's chorea. a

812
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,710
Speaker 4: disorder linked to strep throat and rheumatic fever that causes

813
00:37:52,770 --> 00:37:56,730
Speaker 4: dance-like twitches. And then, of course, modern medical historians say

814
00:37:56,750 --> 00:37:57,850
Speaker 4: it was mass psychosis.

815
00:37:58,110 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: I would go with that one.

816
00:37:59,670 --> 00:38:02,509
Speaker 4: Yeah, but back then it made more sense, though, when

817
00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:05,980
Speaker 4: during the Salem witch trials and before they knew anything

818
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:07,860
Speaker 4: about medicine and you could just say you got the

819
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 4: hot blood or you're having the fits.

820
00:38:10,780 --> 00:38:13,219
Speaker 3: Or the devil's possessed you.

821
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,540
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. These modern cases are the ones that really

822
00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 4: freak me out because so much is explainable now.

823
00:38:19,540 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: Here's the thing, though, Chuck. We've always explained it with

824
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: something that comes easily to mind. So back in the

825
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,770
Speaker 3: day before science and medicine, it was the devil possessing you.

826
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,180
Speaker 3: And don't think that people weren't freaked out when they

827
00:38:32,219 --> 00:38:35,489
Speaker 3: thought that the devil was there in town possessing people

828
00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:37,969
Speaker 3: in the same way that you're freaked out by the

829
00:38:38,010 --> 00:38:41,149
Speaker 3: idea that it's cyanide in the soil from a train

830
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:41,870
Speaker 3: derailment from 1970.

831
00:38:41,870 --> 00:38:43,730
Speaker 4: Or beetle mania.

832
00:38:43,830 --> 00:38:47,609
Speaker 3: Exactly. Which is the deadliest of all the manias. But

833
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:49,009
Speaker 3: it's just as real.

834
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:49,890
Speaker 4: Yeah.

835
00:38:50,170 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: To the experiencer. And it all comes down to people

836
00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:56,620
Speaker 3: just basically being sick of the establishment and letting loose

837
00:38:56,660 --> 00:38:57,100
Speaker 3: for a while.

838
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: Don't want to go to work. Nice. So I'll dance.

839
00:39:01,020 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 3: You got anything else?

840
00:39:03,180 --> 00:39:03,430
Speaker 1: No, sir.

841
00:39:04,010 --> 00:39:07,410
Speaker 3: If you want to know more about collective hysteria, which

842
00:39:07,489 --> 00:39:10,150
Speaker 3: is the name of this article, type those words in

843
00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:12,900
Speaker 3: the search bar at howstuffworks.com and it will bring it up.

844
00:39:13,489 --> 00:39:15,109
Speaker 3: And I said search bar, which means it's time for

845
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: listener mail.

846
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,610
Speaker 4: I'm going to call this episode on grief. We got

847
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:26,049
Speaker 4: a lot of great feedback and they continue to roll in.

848
00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:29,010
Speaker 4: Hey guys, just stumbled upon your podcast through my tune

849
00:39:29,070 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 4: in radio app. Uh, I guess that's a mini plug.

850
00:39:32,540 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 4: We're available there now. Um, I've devoured almost all of

851
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 4: the 600 plus shows. I may be a new listener,

852
00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:41,350
Speaker 4: but I'm already a lifelong fan. So why I'm writing

853
00:39:41,390 --> 00:39:44,610
Speaker 4: in guys is I lost my twin sister back in 2010. Uh,

854
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:47,710
Speaker 4: it was a rough time because as a fraternal twin,

855
00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:49,620
Speaker 4: me being the boy, uh, I looked at her not

856
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,780
Speaker 4: only as a sister, but as a mother and friend, too.

857
00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:54,350
Speaker 4: Long story short, I wanted to comment on the Grief

858
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:57,830
Speaker 4: show some time ago. I've dealt with my grief through

859
00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:01,310
Speaker 4: my artwork. I'm a small-town artist from Johnson City, Tennessee,

860
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:04,529
Speaker 4: and I rarely can get noticed or any attention with

861
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:07,029
Speaker 4: my art. I wanted to share my new piece I've

862
00:40:07,050 --> 00:40:09,989
Speaker 4: just finished after listening to how comic books work. I'm

863
00:40:10,010 --> 00:40:11,950
Speaker 4: a huge fan of Marvel Comics, and I hope you

864
00:40:11,969 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 4: both enjoy this. And he sent this really cool... I

865
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:16,860
Speaker 4: think it was like every member of the Marvel Universe

866
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 4: had to be in this picture that he did.

867
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: I didn't see that one.

868
00:40:19,890 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 4: It's really, really neat. Just jam-packed full of Marvel comic

869
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 4: heroes and villains. So Josh and Chuck, thanks for the

870
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 4: inspiration laughs and getting through every day at the office. P.S.

871
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:33,540
Speaker 4: My twin Jessica passed away from epilepsy, actually. A condition

872
00:40:33,580 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 4: called SUDEP, Sudden Unexplained Death of Epilepsy. My mother is

873
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,100
Speaker 4: trying to raise awareness because November is Epilepsy Awareness Month.

874
00:40:42,610 --> 00:40:44,690
Speaker 4: So if you guys wouldn't mind mentioning this on the show,

875
00:40:44,750 --> 00:40:47,290
Speaker 4: she would be so happy for that. Also, an epilepsy

876
00:40:47,330 --> 00:40:50,270
Speaker 4: show would be cool, too. Not a lot is discussed

877
00:40:50,310 --> 00:40:53,569
Speaker 4: about it. And that is Jason Flack. And Jason, I

878
00:40:53,610 --> 00:40:56,710
Speaker 4: wrote you back. That is heartbreaking about your twin sister.

879
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:57,270
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.

880
00:40:57,489 --> 00:41:00,779
Speaker 4: Very sorry to hear that. And we will definitely do

881
00:41:00,820 --> 00:41:03,339
Speaker 4: a show on epilepsy. And since this is November, though,

882
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,340
Speaker 4: people should go out and find out what they can

883
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,700
Speaker 4: during National Epilepsy Month.

884
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:08,020
Speaker 1: Yeah.

885
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,450
Speaker 4: We'll follow up with the show. I don't know if

886
00:41:10,469 --> 00:41:12,410
Speaker 4: it'll be in November, but we'll get to that one

887
00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:12,750
Speaker 4: for sure.

888
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:13,009
Speaker 1: Yeah.

889
00:41:13,270 --> 00:41:15,450
Speaker 4: And thanks for that piece of art. And if anyone's

890
00:41:15,489 --> 00:41:18,690
Speaker 4: interested in a great comic book artist from Johnson City, Tennessee,

891
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:21,390
Speaker 4: I could do a lot worse than Jason Flack.

892
00:41:21,790 --> 00:41:24,650
Speaker 3: Jason, thank you very much for sharing that with everybody.

893
00:41:24,690 --> 00:41:27,230
Speaker 3: That means a lot to us. If you want to

894
00:41:27,350 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 3: share with us and all of our listeners out there,

895
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,540
Speaker 3: you can tweet to us at SYSK Podcast. You can

896
00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:38,259
Speaker 3: join us on Facebook.com slash SubYouShouldKnow. You can send us

897
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:43,310
Speaker 3: an email with attached artwork to StuffPodcast at HowStuffWorks.com. And

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Speaker 3: as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

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Speaker 2: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.