WEBVTT - #324 Jason Flom with Peter Pringle 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:09.039 We originally aired the following episode on February twenty, twenty seventeen. 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.800 It was only our twelfth episode. Peter Pringle was a 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.640 death row ex Honery in Ireland, and you'll hear all 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.040 about that situation just after this, But he actually ended 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.960 up marrying a death row ex Hognerie out of Florida, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:29.040 a wonderful human named Sunny Jacobs. They're both wonderful people, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:35.480 or were. Unfortunately, Peter Pringle passed away on December thirty first, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.320 twenty twenty two, New Year's Eve, at their home in 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:45.800 Clinic Muran Costello, County, Galway. Peter devoted himself tirelessly to 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.839 his family, to his beloved animals, and most of all 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.840 to helping other ex houneries get back on their feet 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:59.920 and find their footing through meditation, yoga, diet. He just 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:05.000 was a guy who never stopped giving back. And I'm 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.480 honored to have known you, Peter, and I hope you're 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.520 in a better place. He survived by his wife, Sonny, 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.240 daughter Anna, and sons Thomas and John, as well as 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:22.759 their twelve grandchildren. Rest in peace and power, Peter Pringle. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:36.119 With the police banging on the door, open up. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.440 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:40.880 choice I made as a free man. 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.400 A year later, I ended up writing the system. 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.320 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:48.520 in the world is going to think. 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.520 As a monster or suspect as a monster for the 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:51.760 rest of my life, and I'm just going to have 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:52.680 to come to peace with that. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:56.640 Somebody was able to look at my picture in a 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.880 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely was. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.560 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.800 might have to play in my hanging. They had been 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.040 told that two prison officers would have to participate in 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.240 my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.600 the last time. Man all held broke loose. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:41.120 But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.760 with Jason Fomm. Today's guest is a dear friend of 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.520 mine and an extraordinary person, Peter Pringle. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.760 Pringle was accused of participating in a murder of two 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.560 police officers following a bank robbery in Ireland. 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.799 After his conviction, he was sentenced to. 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.440 Death by hanging, and the police officer who had lied 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.560 to get me convicted was now a retired detective superintendent. 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.639 He had been promoted up to the top just. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.359 Days before a noose was to be tied around his neck. 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.400 Peter learned that our Land's president had commuted his sentence 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:13.000 to forty years without pole. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.360 It faced the forty years, which wasn't the possibility for 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.720 me at the time. I could kill myself, which at 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.120 the time was a reasonable. 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:25.080 I was, Peter, what an extraordinary story. So happy to 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.000 have you here. You're also the first guest on wrongful 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.720 conviction who's not born in America. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.840 Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Thank you 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:31.400 very much. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.800 Yeah, I was just saying, it's exciting that you're here because, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.160 as I said, we're taking it international now, right. You're 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.040 as Irish as Irish can be. So Peter, let's go 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.960 back to the we're talking. This is a very interesting 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.760 time right when things were going sort of crazy in 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.040 your home country, right, So bring us back to what 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.200 was give us the climate. 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.800 In the What happened was in nineteen eighty there was 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.360 a bank robberty in Ireland, which the police say was 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.000 carried out by two three men rather and the getaway car, 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.160 traveling across country small country roads, collided with a police 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.080 car at a small crossroads. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:09.720 It sounds like a movie. Yeah. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.600 Well, and this is now the police version of events 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.680 because it goes I wasn't there, so I really can't 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.880 give you the I can give you what I think 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.039 is the accurate event of what happened because of my 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.960 later investigations. But there was the two cars collided, there 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.400 was an exchange of going far and two police officers 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:30.720 were killed, and the three raiders escaped cross country. 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.800 With three bank crappers. Yeah, and where did this happen? 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.920 In a town called Balhadrin and County ross Common in Ireland. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:39.880 But at the time you were far away. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.120 I was in a different region, different county altogether. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.919 That's an important detail. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.800 Yeah. So that evening one man was arrested not too 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:52.840 far away and he had a bullet wound in his chest. 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.320 And the following morning a second man was arrested and 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.360 the third man escaped cross country and two after the crime, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.840 a police officer managed to catch the man that were chasing, 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.800 actually caught hold of him and was the only police 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.320 officer to see the man when the man wasn't wearing 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.600 a mask. But the man struggled and got away from 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.560 the police officer ran away across the fields, stole a 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:23.000 car and escaped again, and apparently he passed through the 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.880 town where I was and got away again from the police, 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.320 and twelve days after the crime, they arrested me and 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.400 brought me in and framed me up for the crime 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:32.200 I hadn't committed. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.080 Now there's a backstory there too, right, there was a 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.680 reason they wanted you, right, you were known to the 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.520 cops and you were a person that they would have 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:44.880 liked to pin something on, and this was sort of 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:45.240 a con. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.760 Yeah, well, I was known in the context that I 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.360 was a political activist. I'd been a political activist from 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.200 the time I was sixteen years of age, and I'd 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.400 been involved with the IRA and I had been interned 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.479 when I was eighteen years of age. From nineteen fifty 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.760 seven to fifty nine, I was imprisoned in a prison 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.320 camp on the Courra in Ireland without interment. It means 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.400 that you're imprisoned without any charge or trial on suspicion. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.880 So they had this background. They classified me as a subversive, 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:13.840 so it was handy for them to get me off 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.839 the streets. That's the way they saw it. But at 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.320 the time, at the crime happened. I had a very 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.640 serious alcohol problem, and I was on a binge. I 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.960 was drinking, and I had been drinking with buddies for days 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.840 and days and days. And then they told me that 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.320 they thought the police might be looking for me. I 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.760 said for what. So I decided, well, you know, I'd 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.440 have to come off the drink and go and go 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.279 to the police and find out what this is all about. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.800 But before that happened, I had come off the drink. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.359 But before I could go to them, they found me 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.160 in the house of a friend and arrested me and 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:48.640 took me in. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.000 They found you in the house of friends. So you 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.559 were on this binge, yeah, knowing you're you're someone who's 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.400 prone to extremes, right. 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:57.839 Some days I've been drinking. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.919 Twelve days of drinking. Well that's a lot of drinking. Yeah, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.520 And I imagine this is this is not casual drinking. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.000 This is no this was serious alcoholic drinking. Yes. And 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.720 I've been a fisherman you see at sea, which probably 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.720 saved me because when you go to see in a trawler, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.520 you don't drink. There's no drinking a boat. And so 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.920 I only drank when when I got Ashore, which was 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.760 a different story. And at the time of my arrest, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.760 I was a skipper of a boat carrying cargo out 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.360 to the Arten Islands, which are three islands off the 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.880 west coast of Ireland at all Away, off Galway Bay 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.600 and habited islands. So my job was to carry different 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.080 cargoes on the ship boat out of the islands of 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.400 landed safety and bring the boat back safely. That was 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:44.240 my job at the time. 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.480 Now, just to give some context, Peter looks like the 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.840 skipper of a boat. He's very tall and strong and 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.200 very well built. I mean, he's got long flowing hair. 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:55.320 You know. For someone like me who grew up in Manhattan, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.080 what would I know about skippers of boats? Right? We 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.280 have rowboats in Central Park here. That's about it. But 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.600 in any case, yes, he very much looks the part. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.960 So you were, so this was your job at the time. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.240 That was my job, And as luck would have it, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.239 I took the day off work the day that the 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.480 robbery happened. I went on a binge and they used 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.560 that against me as I had taken the day off 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.040 work to go and commit the robbery, which hadn't happened. 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.480 But anyway, when I was arrested and I was taken 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.000 to the police station. And that's a funny thing about 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.960 that too, because after twelve days on drinking, you know, 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.360 I was entering into detox because this was the first 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.079 day I hadn't drank. And when they arrested me and 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.959 took me into the police card, two detectives each side 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.040 of me, I had to shiver it and they said 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.240 I was shivering because of fear, because of gilt ski. 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.400 I was shivering because I was after a binge. But 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.000 when they got me into the police station, they first 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.480 thing they did was strip me naked and a team 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.480 of detectives walked around and inspected my body, which I 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.080 found to be very weird, and they all looked very disappointed, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:03.920 and I didn't know why. I later discovered they were 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.000 disappointed because I didn't have a bullet wound. Because remember 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.120 the guy that they arrested that had been shot told 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.800 him that his friend had also been shot, so they 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.520 were looking to see had I a bullet wound, And 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.760 when I didn't have a bullet wound, that looked pretty disappointed. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.959 But that didn't stop them framing me up. So I 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.120 was arrested at three o'clock on a Saturday afternoon, and 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.240 at four o'clock this commenced interrogations. And I was interrogated 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.400 from four pm Saturday afternoon until four point thirty a m. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.600 On Sunday morning, twelve and a half hours. Yeah, there 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.600 was a break when I had a visit, two breaks 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.760 when I had two short visits with my lawyers in 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.600 the middle, but that was twelve hours. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.679 Basically, Chris, you and two detectives in the room had that. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.960 May and the team of detectives they were coming in 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:49.120 relays of twos and trees and interrogating and you know, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.920 with the occasional beating in the thrown in for good 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.079 measure because two colleagues had been killed and they were very, 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.360 very angry. And so then at four am in the morning, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.360 I was brought down into a dirty cell and put 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.920 into a dirty cell, and a police officer was outside 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.520 with a baton and it's the solid door, and they 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.720 closed the door and then he was outside banging on 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.400 the metal door with his baton so that I couldn't 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.320 fall asleep. And then at eight am they took me 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.040 out of the cell and at eight thirty recommenced interrogations 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.400 and I was interrogated from eight thirty am on Sunday 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.760 morning right through until four thirty am on Monday morning. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.120 Wow, so that's another twenty hours. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.600 Yeah, And during that day it's very interesting actually in 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:38.120 the afternoon that was on the Sunday what we're known 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.120 in Ireland as the Heavy Gang. These were the Serious 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.319 Crime Squad who had a terrible reputation. They took over 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.200 the police station and they allowed they let all the 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.760 local police go off to a football match or something, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.920 and so the only people in the police station with 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.640 me on Sunday afternoon were the Serious Crime Squad and 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:03.720 Special Branch. And at one point in the afternoon I 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:07.160 was being interrogated and I was they when they beat you, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:09.880 they make sure not to leave mark, so you get 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.760 kidney punches. They I'd be standing while they'll be questioning 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.120 me and one would come behind me with his pistol 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.040 and you know, whack you in the in the kidneys, 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:24.360 which is very very painful. And are they take their 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.440 boots and rask them down along my shins, you know, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.200 along the shin bone, along the skin to tear the skin. 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.560 Stuff like that. You wouldn't think about a stamp on 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.160 your toes. These are big, heavy men, you know, and 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.240 you're you're wearing a pair of canvas shoes that they've 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.720 given me. And at one point that I knew I 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.440 needed a break. This was you know, I knew I was. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.760 I was getting very tired of this. So I said 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.959 I wanted to use the toilet, and they said you're 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:55.280 not going to use the toilet. You're not going to 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.400 use the toilet, you know, because they use fierce language, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.559 you know. And I waited a little while and then 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.680 I said to the inspector who was conducting matters, I said, 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.000 it's like this now. I said, if you don't let 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:08.560 me use the toilet, I said, I'm going to piss 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.840 on the floor here in this office. They went there 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.200 and he said, well he would too. He would too 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.120 to be you know. So with that they left the 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.360 room and they called in two other detectives and they 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.760 left the room, and after about ten minutes they were 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:28.240 told they could take me out of the toilet. So 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.360 the two detectors took me out. I was in front, 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.320 walked out the door, down the corridor and turned right 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.920 along a long corridor, and about halfway down this corridor 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.400 there's an alcove to a staircase going stairs ways gone up. 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:42.320 And the. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.480 Men's room was on the left, near the opposite that 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.680 that's alcove. And at the end of the corridor the 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.160 door was open out onto the car park and the street. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.840 And I'm walking now, but you know, you can imagine 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:03.800 I'm sort of hypertense because of all that's happening, and 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.080 I'm walking down along the corridor, and I had the 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.280 door open because they wanted me to make a run. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:12.480 For it so they could show you. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.040 Yeah, And when I got just at this alcohol, a 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.520 detective standing in the alcohol that I couldn't see put 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.600 his foot out to trip me. But I was so 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.840 hypertense I saw it and I lift him. I stepped 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.400 over his foot, and the detective behind me says, ah, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.200 you won't catch Peter like that. And with that, the 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.360 guy that had tried to trip me says, I'll fucking 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.760 catch me, he says, and he cocked a noozy submachine gun. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.240 He said, I'll kill the bastard. And I got on 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.600 a merciful push in my back and I was propelled 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.760 through the door of the men's room and up against 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.920 the wall to the side, and the detective behind me, 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.480 who was a special Branch detective, shielded my body, put 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.160 his hands up like that. She lied my body and 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.880 said into my ears, say nothing, say nothing, Say nothing, 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.679 And he said to his college shut that door, and 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.199 they shut the door. And there was a big for 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.520 already going on out in the hallway. The guy with 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.600 a gun was wanting to get at me. And the 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.560 next thing we heard a torretive voice saying, what's going 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.840 on here? And then hand me that weapon and then 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.560 to somebody has take care of that weapon, and he says, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.040 you to my office, and I gather what happened to 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.960 as a superintendent came in and saw what was going 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:30.680 on and stopped it. But in the toilet, the detective 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.320 that was protecting me still covered my back, covered me 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.760 with his body, which is a very brave thing to do, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.280 because that other lunatic was going to shoot me. And 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.280 then when everything out quiet and down, he says to me, 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.680 I need to have a pin out too, he says, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.600 after all that, and so that was it and I 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.840 was brought back and the interrogations continued. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.520 I mean, we've heard these stories from people who were 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:59.760 wrongfully arrested and subjected to awful interrogations in America. And 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.800 we don't really know much about the audience here because 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.920 we haven't covered it in any detail what goes on overseas, 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.680 but it sounds every bit as bad as anything that 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.920 goes on in America. And of course we do know that, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.520 as you pointed out, when police officers are killed, they 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:21.560 get crazy, they get into an irrational state, and they 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.200 probably do things that there they wouldn't normally do normally do, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.840 that's correct, And so you were subject to I mean 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.760 from I'm just trying to do the math, like almost 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.880 forty hours of interrogation thus far, and I'm guessing that 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:36.960 there was well we know that you didn't get any sleep. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.160 I'm sure you weren't given anything to eat. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.800 Well, no, they would bring along a coup of tea 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.320 or something like that, you know, maybe a sandwich, you know. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:46.960 Right, so they okay, so the at least you had 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.920 that going for yourself. But that which is better than 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.160 you would have thought based on the way they're treating you. Right, 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.000 But then again, they like to do that, right, They 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:54.320 like to pull you in a little bit and then 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:56.240 put you back out right and do that whole like 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.320 psychological torture thing as well, Jennifer. 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.680 When I was put into the cell down on Monday 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.880 morning at four point am on Monday morning, I was 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.560 taken out again at eight o'clock and I was interrogated 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:09.760 then til noon on Monday, and then I was taken 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.400 under an armed desk card of perlice to Dublin and 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.920 brought before the Special Criminal Court, where I was charged 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:17.200 with capital model and robbery. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.360 But you never confessed, absolutely not. 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.880 I should tell you this one. My father was a policeman. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.920 My father had been a police officer. Yeah, and at 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:31.640 the time when I was a young man, and he 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.840 knew of my involvement with the Republican movement, and he 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.520 tried to talk me out of it, of course, and 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.440 he said to me at one stage he said to me, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.240 if you're going to stay with these people that you're 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:47.480 involved in now, he said, I want to tell you 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:49.280 to give you some advice. He says, if you're ever 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.840 arrested by that crowd. And I said, what crowd? He said, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.200 that crowd in the castle, Dublin Castle was the center 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.680 for the Special Branch, and he was referring to a 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.480 special Branch. He said, if they deal with political matters. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.360 He says, if you're arrested, don't answer any questions. He said, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.560 give them me your name, address, and date of bert 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.320 and say nothing else. And I said, why that, he says, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.199 because no matter what you say, they'll twist it and 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.879 use it against you. So when I was arrested, and 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.639 that was my policy when I had been arrested many 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.240 times before, because if anything happened in the area that 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.360 I was in, they would do a sort of round 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.520 up the usual suspects. Anything political happened, I didn't mean, 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.280 and they'd pulled me in and they questioned me, and 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:34.920 I'd say nothing, and they'd released me and that was 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.920 the end of it. So I knew about the procedures 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.720 when I was arrested, but they brought me before the 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.439 Special Criminal Court which was established for the trial of 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:50.440 political offenses, which is a tribunal of three judges, no jury, 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.800 and there I was charged and remandement custody to the 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.760 maximum security prison where I was put. And in truth, 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.119 when I got to the maximum security prison, that even 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.600 on the Monday evening, and I was That was kind 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.600 of interesting too, because when I was brought into what 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.439 they call reception in the prison. I was stripped, of course, 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.560 they stripped out to you're going into the prison, and 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:12.920 there was a senior chief officer what they call the 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.600 chief officer there, Jaylor, and they handed me prison clothes. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.560 I said them, They said, you have to put them on. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.480 You have to wear prison clothes. I said, no, I'm 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.720 a political prisoner. I don't wear prison clothes. And they said, 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:28.920 but you have to, that's it. No, I said, I'm 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.159 not wearing. No, I want my own clothes back. And 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:32.560 I said, if you don't give me my own clothes, 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:33.160 I'll go naked. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:34.680 How did they respond to that. 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.080 And they said what Well, some of them wanted to 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.680 beat me up again. You see. I wanted to beat 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:40.920 me up. And the chief said no, no, no, don't 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.640 do that. He said, are you serious? I said, of course, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.119 I'm serious. I said, I'm a politicod prisoner. I'm not 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.159 wearing prison clothes. And he said, give me fucking clothes. 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.000 So I got my clothes and I was brought into 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.520 the prison wing where I was where everybody else was 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.560 not wearing their own clothes too, because it was a 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.959 politic good wing. You see. I was put into a 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.200 cell and I can tell you this much to get 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.480 into that prison cell with a clean bed, even though 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.520 it's a narrow, army type of bed, take off my 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.159 clothes and get into the bed and sleep. It was 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:18.199 such a relief after forty eight harrowing hours and me 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.359 I was detoxing during all this time that I was 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.440 in the police station, and there I was. And then 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:25.720 three months later I was given a copy of the 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.960 Book of evidence, and I saw in the book of 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.159 evidence where one detective sergeant was claiming that on the 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.720 Monday morning that would have been after thirty four hours 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.360 of interrogation, I had supposedly suddenly blurted out these words. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.320 I know that you know I was involved, but on 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.720 the advice of my solicitor, I'm saying nothing, and you'll 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.760 have to and you'll have to prove it all the way. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.760 I'd never spoken those words, because, as I said, all 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:52.560 I gave was my name, addressed, date of bed and 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:53.960 if I wanted to use the toilet, I said, I 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:54.680 want to use the toilet. 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.600 So for thirty four hours of them interrogating you and 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.800 alternately beating you and witching people and going in and 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.720 out and depriving you of sleep and everything else, all 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:06.760 you gave them was your name. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.040 Address, and birth day of parrot and to say to them, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.080 I am innocent of what you're accused me of. 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.240 So your dad's advice really stuck with. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.359 You absolutely because he knew, I mean, he was a 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:18.400 police officer. 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.000 Right, which is an iron ironic twist. It is a thing, right, 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:22.960 the fact that your dad was a police officer and 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.520 you end up being accused of killing two police officers 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.880 and then tortured by police officers. Yeah, it's very strange. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.720 Life is very strange, and your story is particularly insane. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.919 So and what an odd thing to just reflect for 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.440 a second on the fact that you were just expressing 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.840 how you felt the sense of relief and you almost 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.480 sounded joyful at the idea that you were being put 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.320 into a cell in a maximum security prison just because 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.080