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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. You know, there's probably, like,

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Speaker 1: let's be honest, there's probably some connection between the fact

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Speaker 1: that we've been doing a bunch of crypto episodes lately

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Speaker 1: and the big sell off that we have in crypto today.

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Speaker 1: Like that's just always how it works. It's like you

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Speaker 1: you get to something and by the time you start

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Speaker 1: talking about it, it's probably the top you think it

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Speaker 1: was our fault and not not. Elon Musk. No, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's like our fault per se. But maybe

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Speaker 1: it's just like, you know, it's just how timing works.

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Speaker 1: By the time the mainstream media is focused on something,

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Speaker 1: the mainstream media like the Odd Lots podcast, it's like

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Speaker 1: coming in, it's like, all right, final chapter. This is

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Speaker 1: the curse of the magazine cover, right like soon is

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Speaker 1: it yet the cover of Barns or The Economist or whatever. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's time to sell and get out. So we are

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Speaker 1: recording this May thirteenth, and last night Ellen Musk tweeted

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Speaker 1: that due to the electricity consumption of bitcoin, they would

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Speaker 1: no longer They're gonna still hold it, but they're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be involved in transacting it in anymore. I don't

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Speaker 1: really know what the real reason is. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what he says, and he you know, all the coins

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Speaker 1: are falling, but you know, there's volatility of the space.

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Speaker 1: But all the coins are falling today, even the ones

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Speaker 1: that aren't mined with lots of electricity, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a mini crypto bear market. Yeah, they're definitely falling.

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Speaker 1: And bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have always been volatile, that's true.

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Speaker 1: But I do think, you know, people talk about crypto

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Speaker 1: as this decentralized ideas something that works as an inflation hedge,

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Speaker 1: something that's sort of beyond the ability of governments and

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Speaker 1: central bankers. Too many pipulate, and so it's kind of

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Speaker 1: ironic that one tweet from a CEO can cause this

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Speaker 1: kind of mayhem in the market. Yeah, totally right. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I have to say, like, earlier in my career,

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Speaker 1: I would have said something like, oh, this is the

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Speaker 1: top the bubble burst or whatever, but I no longer

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Speaker 1: think that. I mean, I don't know, cycles come and go,

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Speaker 1: but I this is all as a phenomenon is a thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Elon could tweet whatever he wants.

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Speaker 1: It's clearly not going away any anytime soon. As a

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Speaker 1: as a phenomenon is a part of the world and

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Speaker 1: maybe a part of the finance world. Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: We've learned our lesson about calling bubbles in bitcoin. We're

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Speaker 1: not going to do that anymore. But what we are

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Speaker 1: going to do is talk about some of the things

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Speaker 1: that are helping crypto I guess, become more widely adopted

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Speaker 1: or more entrenched, one of the reasons why it's not

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Speaker 1: going away. Yeah, So listeners may recall a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, we did an episode on decentralized exchanges. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, a centralized exchange like coin base, you send

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Speaker 1: them for out currency that you could trade cryptocurrencies like

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Speaker 1: bitcoin or ethereum. On the centralized exchanges, they don't hold

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Speaker 1: your money. You don't even need to start an account

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. In fact, you can't start an

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Speaker 1: account and all the trading is done on the block

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Speaker 1: chain itself. We talked to Hayden Adams, the developer of

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Speaker 1: the unit Swap protocol, which is behind the exchange unit Swap,

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Speaker 1: and I talked about automated automated market making and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and it was super fascinating, but like, I still need

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Speaker 1: to learn more, Like I still like I'm only like

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Speaker 1: maybe of the way they're in terms of like getting

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Speaker 1: how this all works. Maybe just ten same here. And

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Speaker 1: for those of our listeners who actually listened to the

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Speaker 1: very end of that podcast, you might have heard us

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Speaker 1: say that we wanted to record an episode on yield farming,

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Speaker 1: which is this phenomenon that has come about because of

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Speaker 1: D five. So the Defy system has basically allowed this

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Speaker 1: to happen. I know absolutely nothing about the space other

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Speaker 1: than it's a way to earn money or interest on

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Speaker 1: your cryptocurrency. I'm very very interested in learning more, right so,

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Speaker 1: and again people should probably listen to that episode. But

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Speaker 1: the premise of these this automated market making model is yes,

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Speaker 1: you could trade one coin verse another like any exchange,

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Speaker 1: but you can also stake your coins. You can put

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Speaker 1: coins that you hold into a liquidity pool as you

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Speaker 1: have your coin stake there, you can earn interest yield,

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Speaker 1: you can firm yield. There's all kinds of crazy stuff

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Speaker 1: you could do. So we're gonna learn more about how

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Speaker 1: this all works from the perspective of an actual trader

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Speaker 1: slash yield farmer. We're gonna have a We're gonna have

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Speaker 1: a farmer on the episode today. We have had actual

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Speaker 1: farmers on the episode before, but we have yet to

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Speaker 1: have a yield farmer. So let's do it. Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: We've had horn and other stuff like that, and a

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Speaker 1: cattle farmer and stuff like that cows, but now someone

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Speaker 1: who farms yield. So I'm very excited about our guest today,

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Speaker 1: actually long time friend of mine, acquaintance. At least, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be speaking with Aaron Lammer, who himself also as

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Speaker 1: a podcast so. He is the host of the Exit

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Speaker 1: Scam podcast brand new podcast out, which chronicles the collapse

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Speaker 1: of the Canadian Crypto Exchange quadriga uh, absolutely fascinating story,

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Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating story. He is also the host of very

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Speaker 1: popular podcast, The long Form Podcast. And I've been talking

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Speaker 1: to him for years as he has dived deeper and

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Speaker 1: deeper intoto the crypto rabbit hole. And one time, a

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Speaker 1: few uh several months ago, I think it was last summer,

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Speaker 1: he messaged me and he says, Joe, I'm defied pilling

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Speaker 1: all of the suburban dads of Long Island. So he's

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Speaker 1: he himself has been a hooked. He is hooking other

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Speaker 1: people to defy. He is a yield farmer, and he's

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Speaker 1: going to explain his descent into madness or maybe how

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Speaker 1: he's made a bunch of money. So I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Lammer is on the podcast. Aaron, thank you very

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Speaker 1: much for joining us. Hi Joe, Hi Tracy, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me. You're fully defied, pilled. Huh. When you were

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Speaker 1: saying that the market had crashed, I was thinking not

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Speaker 1: really for me, because I don't have any bitcoin and

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Speaker 1: I'm deep in ethereum world. Ethereum appears to be where

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Speaker 1: it was at an all time higher earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not worried. I'm just saying I'm not worried. Okay,

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Speaker 1: good to establish that. Are we going to become yield

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Speaker 1: farmers by the end of this episode? Are you going

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Speaker 1: to convert us? I mean, the reason I d m

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Speaker 1: Joe in the first place was to test whether he

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Speaker 1: was open to farm make a little bit with me,

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Speaker 1: and I still I think I'm gonna I think I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna flip him eventually. You should you didn't say that.

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Speaker 1: You should have said, Joe I've got this huge money

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Speaker 1: may g opportunity. Drive over to my house on Long

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Speaker 1: Island right now. I'm gonna make you a bunch of money.

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Speaker 1: And if I had listened, like I think that was,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know, that was several months ago, I

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Speaker 1: probably have made a bunch of moment absolutely damn. Can

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Speaker 1: we start with the very very basic question, which is

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Speaker 1: what is yield farming? Yeah? I mean I think we

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Speaker 1: sort of have to like rewind through ethereum history a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I didn't start off wanting to become a farmer,

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Speaker 1: and I should say that my farming is like when

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Speaker 1: someone moves from Brooklyn to Vermont and has like a

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Speaker 1: few chickens and maybe one cow. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing this on an industrial scale. There are people You

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Speaker 1: can actually look at other people's wallets in Ethereum because

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Speaker 1: it's all open, So like I'm looking, there's a really

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Speaker 1: big farmer named ox zero x B one and he's

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Speaker 1: farming hundreds of millions of dollars, and in your wallet

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Speaker 1: you can just watch him farming. So if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in like farming visuals, you can actually add them to

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Speaker 1: your own wat I'm a small farmer and I kind

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Speaker 1: of backed my way into it. Um. I was interested

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Speaker 1: in Bitcoin, interested in Ethereum. I've always believed that UM

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Speaker 1: to really understand this stuff, you actually have to do it,

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Speaker 1: Like you have to try the products with like real

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Speaker 1: coins and and play live. So I've always like tried

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Speaker 1: all the weird Ethereum world things that existed, Like I

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Speaker 1: used to make markets on this thing called Auger, which

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Speaker 1: was a decentralized prediction market. I think that was the

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Speaker 1: first Ethereum product that I actually used. And all these

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Speaker 1: Ethereum products, what they have in common is that you

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Speaker 1: log in with a wallet. Most people may use Meta mask.

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably the most popular one. And this

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Speaker 1: is both an Ethereum wallet that holds your coins and

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Speaker 1: it's a form of pseudonymous identity. It's basically all any

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Speaker 1: of these services know about you is this person uses

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Speaker 1: this wallet and they have access to the private keys.

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Speaker 1: So oh, I started getting into the yield stuff when

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Speaker 1: I started trading on dex Is, and a dex is

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Speaker 1: exactly what Hayden Adam, who was on this show makes

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Speaker 1: he makes the biggest, most famous one. I would say

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Speaker 1: that if you're familiar at all with the decks. It's

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Speaker 1: probably unit swap unit swap. When I first started using it,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even really know what was so different about

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Speaker 1: it than say, trading on coin Base. I understand a

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Speaker 1: lot better now, um, but unic swap is what's called

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Speaker 1: a automated market maker. Don't quote me if I got

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Speaker 1: that acronym wrong. And basically, instead of having a central

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Speaker 1: order book, it uses a big liquidity pool to create trades,

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Speaker 1: and it uses algorithmic arbitrage basically to figure out a

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Speaker 1: price within that. So I started trading there primarily because

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Speaker 1: I find centralized exchanges pretty sketchy and have had some

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Speaker 1: sketchy experiences. I didn't lose money in Quadriga, but I

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Speaker 1: used to trade uh get coins on a exchange called

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Speaker 1: Cryptopia that went down. So I've been burnt by before

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Speaker 1: by um sketchy exchanges. But if you like trading these tiny,

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Speaker 1: small cap coins, it's unlikely they're gonna be on somewhere

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Speaker 1: like coin base or Gemini, so you kind of have

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Speaker 1: to find a place where you can trade them. And

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Speaker 1: the really incredible thing about unit swap and other dex

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Speaker 1: is is there's this kind of coin called e r

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Speaker 1: C twenty and I consider it like a variety of etherium.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, there's different wines that come from different regions.

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Speaker 1: These are all like takes on the basic ethereum coin,

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Speaker 1: and they are all interoperable, and the protocol can recognize

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Speaker 1: all of them. So basically any e r C twenty

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Speaker 1: can be traded on unit swap or any decks. This

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Speaker 1: is a pretty powerful idea. It means that anyone can

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Speaker 1: just come out with a project and if people put

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Speaker 1: a little liquidity into unit swap, you can trade it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I've found coins that are so small that they

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Speaker 1: won't even be recognized by unit swap. You have to

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Speaker 1: copy and paste in the smart contract and then unit

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Speaker 1: swap goes Okay, yeah I know what that is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can trade it. Go ahead. Might not have a

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Speaker 1: logo for it, but like the protocol recognizes it. So

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Speaker 1: I was trading this way for a while and I

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Speaker 1: started to see these incredible yields that you could get

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Speaker 1: by um providing liquidity for these pairs of coins, many

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Speaker 1: of which I happened to already have. So I would see, wow,

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Speaker 1: this pair is paying seventy a p Y. And when

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Speaker 1: I say p y, that would mean if I kept

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Speaker 1: my my coins in the liquidity pool for one year,

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Speaker 1: and that rate was stable through that year, which is

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Speaker 1: unlikely to be. I would earn seventy on top of

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Speaker 1: the coins I already had, which is a pretty appealing idea.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about out this some more. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is really the key thing. So there's two things

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Speaker 1: that a trader can do on a deck like unite swap.

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Speaker 1: You can identify a coin that you think is going

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Speaker 1: to go up, which is I guess what most people

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Speaker 1: think of as trading or speculating or whatever. You see

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Speaker 1: some project that you like, it's small, you think the

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Speaker 1: number is going to go up. That's sort of the

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Speaker 1: essence of what a lot of what draws people to crypto.

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Speaker 1: But then the other aspect of it is this idea

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Speaker 1: that you can if you have a coin, you can

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Speaker 1: put it into this pool and earn yield. So just

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Speaker 1: explain to us the mechanism there, how that works, and

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Speaker 1: why you get paid to put your coin into a pool.

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Speaker 1: So this isn't actually the only way to get yielled.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is one thing that's confusing about

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Speaker 1: farming is there's actually like dairy farming and like big farming,

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Speaker 1: and each of them are a little different, but this

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Speaker 1: kind of yield. Basically, you're taking a pair of two coins,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna get, say, for example, ethereum and uh die,

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Speaker 1: which is a stable coin. All right, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are trading die for ethereum all the time, so

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Speaker 1: I can supply equal amounts ethereum and die into the pool,

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Speaker 1: and then that will be used to facilitate trades. Each

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Speaker 1: of those trades pays a fee, and I get a

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Speaker 1: portion of that fee relative to how much of the

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Speaker 1: pool I own. So the best pools for me to

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Speaker 1: be in are the pools where people are trading the

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Speaker 1: most and where there's the least liquidity relative to how

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Speaker 1: much trading there is. So this is why you're seeing

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Speaker 1: things swing wildly in turns of these APIs when you

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Speaker 1: see the least liquidity, you mean the smallest pools, So

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of volume of trading, but not

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Speaker 1: many people have put their pairs into the pool exactly,

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Speaker 1: so you can actually see in unit swap how much

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Speaker 1: of the pool you own. So there's a pool for

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Speaker 1: This is going to get a little complex, but there's

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Speaker 1: a pool for f F two x F two X

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Speaker 1: is a token that basically tracks the price of ethereum

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Speaker 1: with two x leverage. So I happen to hold that

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Speaker 1: token and the Ethereum token, so I put them into

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Speaker 1: that pool. I now own currently about point one percent,

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Speaker 1: so I own one one of that pool. Of all

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Speaker 1: the money in that pool is money I put in,

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Speaker 1: and therefore each fee that gets paid, I get of

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Speaker 1: that fee. And therefore I'm looking for places where I

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Speaker 1: can either own a lot of the pool or um.

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Speaker 1: There's massive volume on the pool, and my little share

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Speaker 1: UH is valuable, and these are swinging in real time

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Speaker 1: because everyone's out chasing this yield. So today's yield is

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Speaker 1: not tomorrow's yield at all. I've got. I've seen the

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Speaker 1: pool I'm in go from a p Y two under

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Speaker 1: ten percent a p Y in the course of twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours because people are pulling their liquidity in and

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Speaker 1: out of the pool. So can you maybe walk us

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Speaker 1: through I remember that Hayden talked about this a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but walk us through the actual fees that you can

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Speaker 1: earn on something like this, And you know, how does

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Speaker 1: it work being the biggest one in a pool versus

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Speaker 1: being in a pool where there's a lot of activity

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Speaker 1: going on, which one is more profitable, and also how

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Speaker 1: labor intensive is yield farming. So you just described having

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Speaker 1: to sort of move from thing to thing to thing

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Speaker 1: to chase the liquidity. Does it take up a lot

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Speaker 1: of time? I mean crypto in general, I think takes

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Speaker 1: up a lot of time, But that's more of a

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Speaker 1: brain disease than an actual like need to do anything.

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Speaker 1: So you could potentially just deposit in a pool and

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Speaker 1: leave it there for a year and you would just

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Speaker 1: get a a rolling average of whatever the a p

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Speaker 1: Y was over that time. The more you want to

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Speaker 1: maximize yield, the more you would do, I think. But

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Speaker 1: every time you deposit into one of these pools, you

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Speaker 1: pay gas, And if you're doing this on the Ethereum network,

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Speaker 1: gas is very expensive right now because it's scaled by

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Speaker 1: Ethereum being worth hundred dollars per coin, So you really

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to be moving these multiple times a day.

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Speaker 1: I try to do as little possible as possible. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's a site that you can go to and log

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Speaker 1: in with your wallet called fees dot WTF, and it

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Speaker 1: tells you the lifetime value of all the fees you've

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Speaker 1: all the gas you've paid on the Ethereum network, and

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Speaker 1: when I looked at mine, it like ruined like a

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Speaker 1: month of my life. Um, I mean I've I've lost

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Speaker 1: a lot of money to gas fees. So there's certain

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Speaker 1: properties about which pools are valuable that I think you

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Speaker 1: can sort of see as patterns. Pools that have stable

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Speaker 1: coins pay very well. And the reason is most people

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Speaker 1: in crypto don't want to hold a bunch of stable

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Speaker 1: coins because they're d gen gamblers. They would rather hold

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Speaker 1: Bitcoin or Ethereum or an even smaller coin that's going up.

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Speaker 1: So because not many people want to hold stable coins,

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Speaker 1: stable coin pools pay very well. There's a thing where

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Speaker 1: you can pool with other people in a sort of

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Speaker 1: automated way called pull together, and stable coin pools usually

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Speaker 1: pay thirty to a p y. This is against I

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Speaker 1: don't know what what does a bank pay in terms

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Speaker 1: of yield right now? Right zero point one at best? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So you're holding basically a token that represents one dollar

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Speaker 1: and you're getting paid thirty tot a p Y versus

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Speaker 1: less than one percent it's bank. But some of this

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Speaker 1: yield stuff is starting to uh infect other parts of

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem. So now coin base and Gemini are saying

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Speaker 1: you can stake your ethereum, probably in a way that's

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Speaker 1: more are safe than the way I just described. For

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Speaker 1: I think six to eight percent a p y, So

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Speaker 1: depending on your callents for risk. There are other ways

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Speaker 1: to earn yield. The simplest way is to stake your

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Speaker 1: ethereum for EF two, which is a big update that's

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Speaker 1: coming to to ethereum, and you can basically stake your

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Speaker 1: ethereum now and get paid. I'm not sure if it's

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Speaker 1: six or eight percent. I think it depends who. You

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Speaker 1: do it well with um for the entire time until

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Speaker 1: that happens, and when Ethereum upgrades to heath to your

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Speaker 1: tokens are unlocked and you get paid that yields for

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Speaker 1: that whole period. So the kind of yield farming where

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Speaker 1: you're providing liquidity is maybe the most active and the

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Speaker 1: way that you can optimize the most for your results.

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Speaker 1: But there's other ways that are far more passive that

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Speaker 1: you can more safely earn what's still a pretty good

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Speaker 1: yield compared to like a bank. All right, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you a question about the pool mechanics that I

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Speaker 1: guess I still like, don't quite get So there is

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Speaker 1: a pool, you know, like the EF DIE pool or

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Speaker 1: the U S d C pool different both of them

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Speaker 1: are stable coins. I assume some of the biggest pairs

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Speaker 1: that exist on the on the unite swap network, you

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Speaker 1: stake both sides of the coin. What happened? How does

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Speaker 1: it work? Okay, let's say I want to make a

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Speaker 1: directional bet. I have some of US d C. I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, all right, I want to trade it for ethereum.

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Speaker 1: So I go into that pool and I just buy

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Speaker 1: some ethereum in that pool. Does the ratio change inside

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Speaker 1: the pool? Explain? Like? What is what's happening there? Like

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Speaker 1: who's if am I getting? Exactly where does it come from?

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Speaker 1: There's a This is a fascinating question, and I am

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Speaker 1: still not totally clear on it. So I'm gonna give

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Speaker 1: you what I think without being totally right. So there's

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Speaker 1: something called impermanent loss. And this has to do with

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Speaker 1: the fact that the two things in the pool are

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Speaker 1: not being equally drawn right at ethereum is going up.

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Speaker 1: There's more demand for ethereum, more ethereums getting pulled out

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Speaker 1: of the pool than die and Therefore, to be in

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Speaker 1: a pool like that is to actually lose some of

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Speaker 1: your exposure to ethereum. You might end up getting put

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Speaker 1: in equal amounts die in ethereum, but because of changes

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Speaker 1: in the pricing of ethereum relative to die, you might

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Speaker 1: get out more die. So going into these liquidity pools

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Speaker 1: can blunt some of your upside two holding crypto, but

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Speaker 1: you're getting paid a fee to do that, And someone

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Speaker 1: might look at eth die and say, hey, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be in that pool. If eight moons, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna end up with more die than EAT, and that's

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Speaker 1: a loss for me. So in some ways we're incentivizing

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Speaker 1: people to create liquidity, and their liquidity makes they're trading

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Speaker 1: a little bit less valuable perhaps, So sorry, just just

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Speaker 1: to be clear here, you put in both sides of

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Speaker 1: the coin in equal proportion, correct, but you're not guaranteed

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Speaker 1: to pull out the same volume of them or like explained,

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Speaker 1: like what are you guaranteed to be able to pull out? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is like a tricky concept, but like let's just

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Speaker 1: think about something that's pegged and something that's not pegged.

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Speaker 1: So let's say I deposited two thousand dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: ethereum when it was two thousand dollars a coin, and

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Speaker 1: I put in two thousand Die, but now as of

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Speaker 1: yesterday had doubled to four thousand dollars. Right, So basically

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Speaker 1: the whole time, the liquidity pool, as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: is acting as sort of a balancer, like as if

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Speaker 1: it was balancing in E T F, so that I

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Speaker 1: have the same amount value of each. So as a theory,

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Speaker 1: Um is going up in value, I'm it's tilting towards

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Speaker 1: die so that they're worth the same amount, and that

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Speaker 1: when I withdraw, I'm getting more of the other thing.

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Speaker 1: That seems like a bad deal when crypto is going

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Speaker 1: way up and you're pegging it against the stable coin.

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Speaker 1: It's a little more complicated when you're talking about pairs

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Speaker 1: where it's say an alt coin like compound er Maker

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Speaker 1: and Ethereum. You don't necessarily know which direction they're going.

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Speaker 1: So I think in practice it almost acts more sort

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Speaker 1: of like a cost average, where it's continually rebalancing these

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Speaker 1: two assets that you have so that you have equal

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Speaker 1: amounts of them. The pool always needs to have equal

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Speaker 1: amounts of both, and I'll admit that's confusing, and I

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Speaker 1: don't totally get it well. I wanted to ask exactly

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Speaker 1: on this point on the sort of like chain of

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Speaker 1: ownership or chain of transaction. So all of this is

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Speaker 1: enabled through unice swaps Automated market Maker system UM, which

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Speaker 1: we may not quite understand all the details of. But

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that you became interested in yield farming because

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Speaker 1: you didn't trust traditional crypto exchanges. It sounds weird to

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Speaker 1: put it like that, UM, but central lies crypto exchanges

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Speaker 1: because you had about experience. What would happen to your

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Speaker 1: coins if Unit swap or two go down suddenly? And

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Speaker 1: I realized I'm saying that, and Hayden told us that

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Speaker 1: it couldn't go down suddenly because it is decentralized. But

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like how much of this relies on

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Speaker 1: UNI swap functioning well and the decisions that they are making.

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Speaker 1: I think it relies very little on decisions that are

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Speaker 1: humans are making at Unit Swap, and it depends deeply

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Speaker 1: on how well the protocol itself works. The money is

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Speaker 1: not like locked up in some office that Unit swap bones.

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Speaker 1: It's locked up into the smart contracts. So all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff is as strong as the smart smart contracts

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Speaker 1: that support it. The good thing is that those smart

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Speaker 1: contracts are something you can just see. You can see

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Speaker 1: the money's there. Unlike in the case of Quadrigo, which

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Speaker 1: was a centralized exchange that was lying and running a

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Speaker 1: fractional reserve. If Unit Swap didn't have the money that

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Speaker 1: it was supposed to locked into its smart contracts, we'd

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Speaker 1: all know. And a lot of these protocols have gotten hacked,

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Speaker 1: so there is risk. I would I would not downplay

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Speaker 1: the risk of this stuff. You have. People were often

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Speaker 1: pseudonymous creating products that lock up billions of dollars in value,

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Speaker 1: and there could be a catastrophe. But unlike the centralized

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Speaker 1: exchange system, I think it's more likely that catastrophe would

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Speaker 1: happen at the code level and less likely it would

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Speaker 1: happen at the human thieflies level. And my own orientation

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Speaker 1: is to sort of trust that system far more than

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Speaker 1: I would trust um any person who was running in

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Speaker 1: exchange and those kind of ideas. I mean, you've talked

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Speaker 1: about decentralization on the show. It sort of goes beyond

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Speaker 1: just safety and risk. I think it's fundamentally you know

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Speaker 1: who's in control when you go to a center realized exchange,

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Speaker 1: they're choosing which coins you can trade. They're influencing the

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Speaker 1: market heavily simply by letting you buy certain things and

430
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: not letting you buy other things. What happens if both

431
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: coins just tumble and dollar value. So let's say you're

432
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: trading in some pool that's like eve verse, some coin

433
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: we've probably never heard of, you know, and one of

434
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: these tiny coins, and it pays some fat a p

435
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: y but then someone tweets something or it's like a

436
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff happens, and they both go down. How

437
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: do you, as a trader think about the sort of

438
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: like cost benefit of yield verse price and basically finding

439
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: good opportunities such that the yield appeals to you without

440
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: having to worry about downside price risk because although you

441
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: know cryptos of this multi year bowl market, that's not guaranteed,

442
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: and of course there have been many crashes in the past. Well,

443
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: I started as a trader, and I don't really consider

444
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: myself like a hardcore farmer, so I'm mostly speculating on coins.

445
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: This is a way for me to get the coins

446
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: I already have and a bit more. If ethereum crashes,

447
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: and I have one point two times as many ethereum

448
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: as I did before. I'm still in a better position,

449
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: so I don't really choose what I buy based on

450
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: what farming I can do. I'm more used farming as

451
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: a bonus. And one other thing I didn't mention about

452
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: that sort of fee that you get from unit swap

453
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: is Unit Swap is this like very austere, non scammy

454
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: presentation kind of company. But they have a lot of

455
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: competitors who would rather you put their liquidity with them

456
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: instead of unit swap, and those people offer incentives on

457
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: top of the fees to juice the value of providing

458
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: liquidity there. And I think you talked about Sushi Swap

459
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: on there the Vampire. I loved when you when you

460
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: brought up sushi Swop there, because I I'm not sure

461
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: I had actually ever heard Hayden Adams directly say what

462
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: he thought about Sushi Swap, which is a clone of

463
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: his exchange. But when Sushi Swap was started getting started,

464
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: they basically said, we'll pay you these ap y fees

465
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: and will pay you this bonus in our native sushi

466
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: token to bring your liquidity over here. So on top

467
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: of the liquidity providing you get a LP token, Right,

468
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: so my deposits aren't just something I know I have.

469
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: I can actually see my LP token in my wallet,

470
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: and the case of sushi swap, you can then deposit

471
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: that LP token and earn these incentives on top of

472
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: the A P y So a lot of this farming

473
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: stuff is like bonus on top of bonus. I'll give

474
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: you like an example of like a way you can

475
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: stack some some of this yield earning. There's this thing

476
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: called Lado Finance which will do that F two steaking

477
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: that I was describing, and you can deposit your F

478
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: with them and they give you pack a token called

479
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: steath STF, which is basically staked F. When you take

480
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: that staked F, you can then go deposit that somewhere

481
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: like compound or A A V A V and borrow

482
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: against it. So you can take that stick death and

483
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: go borrow a bunch of stable coins against it and

484
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: then earn yield on those. The really hardcore farmers are

485
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: using a system of constant lending and borrowing to get

486
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: the most advantageous yield while basically still holding their original collateral.

487
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: That's the game is to hold your original collateral and

488
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: get as much else as you can. So when you

489
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: ask what would happen when it crashed, the same thing

490
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: would happen when it crashed. That would happen to me anyway,

491
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: except I'd have more of the thing that had crashed,

492
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 1: which gives me a better position. How has the the

493
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: yield farming phenomenon impacted the crypto coins themselves? So you

494
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: have this whole process at unit swap that is dedicated

495
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: to creating liquidity in cryptocurrencies, whether they're you know, big

496
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: or small coins and a minimum I would imagine this

497
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: is allowing a lot of those smaller coins to sort

498
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: of get traction. It's allowing small coins to get traction,

499
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: and big protocols to lock large amounts of value which

500
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: allow them to do lending and borrowing stuff. And then

501
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: there's this service called YEARN that's kind of on the

502
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: top of a lot of this stuff where if you

503
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: don't want to go out and seek out all these

504
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: yield opportunities, you can just lock your coins and YEARN,

505
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: and YEARN works in an automated fashion to try to

506
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: find you the best opportunities. So I would say that

507
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: actually most of the yield farming that's happening, isn't people

508
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: who are like making a bunch of manual decisions. It's

509
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: people who are locking their money into these big protocols

510
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: that go out and use strategies that require tons and

511
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: tons of capital. If you only have a few thousand

512
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: dollars in crypto, it may not be worth it to

513
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: do this, but it might be worth depositing that crypto

514
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: into YEARN and letting YEARN move around billions of or

515
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars in the way they can

516
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: earn the most yield. So not everyone is like me,

517
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: trying to do this themselves, which is probably stupid. I

518
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: think a lot of the smarter people actually just go

519
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: for these automated strategies. Backing up for a second, you know,

520
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned like finding some sort of like smaller coin,

521
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: some tiny coin where maybe you're going to dominate the

522
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: pool or you already had it or something like that.

523
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: You know, I think that like when people like buy stocks,

524
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, there are certain metrics that they use and

525
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: they look at profitability or whatever, like how do you

526
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: begin to evaluate I mean there's that, you know. I

527
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: think as Hayden Centers, like they're having two thousand coins

528
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: a day on you and a swap or something like

529
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: like just some insane number. How do you evaluate, uh,

530
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: what's a coin you want to buy? Like, what are

531
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: the things you look for? Well, it's a really interesting

532
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: question because I have really dabbled in in the all

533
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: the stages from the blue chip prestige defy to the

534
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: very very tiny market cap, and I've tried to play

535
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: those kind of weighted. So I have most of my

536
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: defy money and things like the top ten defied tokens,

537
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: things like unit swap that you've heard of, UM, And

538
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: then as you say, two thousand being added a day,

539
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really tiny cap coins. So I'll

540
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: admit I for a period would scan the top five

541
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: coins top gainers UM when n f T s were big.

542
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: I just looked through the entire list on coin get

543
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: Go of n f T related coins. I'm looking for

544
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: a good logo. I'm looking for a clear presentation that

545
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: offers what the value is. And above all, I'm looking

546
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: at the market cap. You know, if I can see

547
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: a coin that has a market cap and the market

548
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: cap this is in crypto turns just basically how how

549
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: much at the current price are all the tokens in

550
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: circulation worth? And I also like to look at how

551
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: much will the token the total market cappy when it's

552
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: fully diluted, because there's a lot of manipulative tactics where

553
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you know, we only have released a

554
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: certain amount now, but we're going to release a ton

555
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: in the future, which is going to crash the price.

556
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: So I'm on the lookout for all that stuff, but

557
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm mostly looking for what looks like a legitimate project

558
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: that has like a clear value proposition. Ideally it's doing

559
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: something that earns money, right, unit swap earns money, it's

560
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: earning millions of dollars and fees every day. That's a

561
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: good look. I like that. I look at all those

562
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: factors and then I try to figure out where I

563
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: am sort of in the narrative of that coin. And

564
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: I generally don't like to buy things when they're like

565
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: really really at the beginning, because liquidity is really bad.

566
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: You know, some of these really tiny coins, if you're

567
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: to sell off anything over say like ten dollars worth

568
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: of them, you can slip the market. I've had times

569
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: when it's going to slip the market cent if I

570
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: sell off my own coins, right, So some of those

571
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: things you need to be careful of. It may look

572
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: like a great opportunity that's doubling every few days and value,

573
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: but not necessarily easy to get out of some of

574
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: those positions. So each of those factors are kind of

575
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: like weighing against each other. And I'm so bullish on

576
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: Ethereum right now that I'm like kind of less loath

577
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: to be dabbling in these really tiny coins, but I

578
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: think that's kind of a market cycles thing. I'll probably

579
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: be back there at some point. But one of the

580
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: reasons there's so many of these little projects that I

581
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: actually do think are worth buying and I have invested

582
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: money in, is that the whole defy system makes it

583
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: really easy for people who make open source software to

584
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: do their own projects. You've got dows digitally autonomous organizations,

585
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: which are tools to coordinate lots of people around the

586
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 1: world and split the upside amongst them. You've got a

587
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: lot of people who are willing to flood capital into

588
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: tiny projects, often with almost no information. So in the

589
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: same way that I think, like I don't know, two

590
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, like Silicon Valley was probably a good

591
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: place to just invest in like every little startup that

592
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: was coming up, and people made a lot of money

593
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: doing that. When I look at the sort of shallow

594
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: end of the DeFi world, I just see like a

595
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: lot of really young people experimenting, and some of those

596
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: projects will become big. I'm probably not going to like

597
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: hold them for three years, so I might not see

598
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: all of that. But if I can ride it, you know,

599
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: through the early part of the project, it's it's kind

600
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: of exciting and a lot of these projects, like I

601
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: was interested in this project n f t X, which

602
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: basically creates funds based on n f t so they

603
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: have like a crypto punks fund where instead of actually

604
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: owning crypto punks, you can get exposure to crypto punks

605
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: through this coin. It's just a bunch of people. They're

606
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: on Twitter. You can see the people who are running

607
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: the project. I follow them and it's kind of fun,

608
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: and following them to is give me some insight. Like

609
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: I saw that they had a designer who was doing

610
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: a rebrand of the site. It's kind of bullish, you know,

611
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: like people who are shipping new software and doing stuff,

612
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: those are the people I would cry in bath. I

613
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: have a really blunt question, um, and I don't mean

614
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: to pry or anything at all. How much money have

615
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: you made that you know I need to know? Okay,

616
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: for science, I won't tell you how much money I made.

617
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: I'll tell you how much a factor of what I

618
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: put in and what it's worth now. So I think

619
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: I've gone about fourteen or fifteen x my original investment.

620
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: But that original investment was years ago. If I had

621
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: just bought bitcoin when I very first got into crypto

622
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: and never done anything, I would have done better than

623
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: I did now. So I was into all of this

624
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: small cap coin trading during the first alt coin boom

625
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: in and I also made a lot of money during

626
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: that period. Not a lot of money I had. My

627
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: initial investment was very small, but as a percentage a

628
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: large amount of money, and it lost it all in

629
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: the crash. So I don't really know that I'm gonna

630
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: walk away even with as much as I've made now,

631
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: and I know people who have made a hundred times

632
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: more than me through more aggressive strategies. I'm kind of

633
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: in it to like mess around a little bit, more

634
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: like I like to try things. So some of the

635
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: things I do are and are not necessarily the smartest

636
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: or most you know, putting your money in during the

637
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: first run in a exchange that was supposedly I think

638
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: in New Zealand, but the guy's exit scammed like that

639
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: wasn't smart. That wasn't like a smart financial move to

640
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: do that. Some of the things I think I've done

641
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: and defy, like I've bought some like dumb n F

642
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: T s. I've bought some like projects that went to zero,

643
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: like there have been mistakes along the way, but you know,

644
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: this stuff is so new that simply riding the success

645
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: of even the biggest projects probably would have yielded you

646
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: many multiples now. And I didn't Actually, I wasn't into

647
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: this during the Defy summer last summer, which was when

648
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: people made the most games. I only got into this

649
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: like after the first wave of interest. I thought I

650
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: had no idea what it was when it was first

651
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: happening years ago. I think it was like sometime in

652
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: seventeen or like I think we got a we got

653
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: hot pot together and Aaron was trying to pitch beyond

654
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: like setting up some like mining operation in upstate New

655
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: York to mine like a fork of like Manaro or

656
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: something just some like crazy things. So I've always really

657
00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: admired your sort of like spelunking into this space, the experimentation.

658
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: Did you ever get that mining rig off the ground? I?

659
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: So I did go visit. My plan was to buy

660
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: a defunct hydro electric dam and upstate New York that

661
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: had its own power generating station and then use that

662
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: to mine. And like most things in crypto, like that

663
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna happen, but it did lead me an interesting place.

664
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: It eventually hooked me up with these guys Bison Trails,

665
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: who were starting a mining center, which I actually think

666
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: their mining center didn't do that well, but they build

667
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of software for their mining center to coordinate

668
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: all the miners, and then coin Base acquired them because

669
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: they wanted off this like mining software. So like that's

670
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: a lot of cryptos like that. A few losses, then

671
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: a win, a few losses then a win. Here's something

672
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: And I have to admit, like this is probably like

673
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: a super boomer question of me and why like I'm

674
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: not like you know, like you and have made a

675
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: ton of money, but I'm curious, like you know, like

676
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: this is the part that always gets me, Like when

677
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: and this is also like when we were talking to Hayden,

678
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: and it's like when I think of like finance, regular

679
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: trad five regular banking, like there's always some like in theory,

680
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: there is some non finance end to it. So it's

681
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: like the finance exists, but then it's like some non

682
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: finance things. So someone invests in like uber early on

683
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: you mentioned like silicon value two thou nine, but that

684
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: like someone's doing something non finance, which is that they're

685
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: like selling rides or the first like sort of like

686
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: model of venture capital was whaling ships and you like

687
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: lay off some of your risk to investors because whaling

688
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: is very dangerous, but if you get a bunch of

689
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: whale on an expedition, you make a lot of money,

690
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: so you distribute the risk. But that's a non finance

691
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: thing going out in um hunting whales. When I like

692
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: look into Defy stuff, every project that I see is

693
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: just like something about more coins. So it's like, oh,

694
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: here's a really cool project and a lot as you

695
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: to like balance your coins. Here's a cool project that

696
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: allows you to like lend. Here's a cool project that

697
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: allows you to find more like WiFi, find more other

698
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: things to lend an automated way, but where do you

699
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: see it going until it's like okay in terms of

700
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: like okay, we have this financial infrastructure that exists now,

701
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: high volume, high liquidity, very impressive technologically, but like what

702
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: is it going to be used? Like four because at

703
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: the moment it's all just looks like kind of what

704
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: you describe where it's like more speculation in coin. Okay,

705
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: So you're not wrong at all, and I think that's

706
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: an accurate way to characterize like where it is right now,

707
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: which is very early. So we're like, I don't know,

708
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: if we look at like Una Swap as like one

709
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: of the launch of unit swap is like one of

710
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: the first landmark events here, I don't know. I think

711
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: that's less than three years ago that it even launched

712
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: the V one product. So I think where we are

713
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: now is we're moving a lot of capital into this

714
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: system because the traditional finance world shows you need a

715
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: lot of capital to do any of this stuff. You

716
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: can't just like start from zero. So a lot of

717
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: these incentives and a p wise, they're they're here to

718
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: to learn people in. But I think once that's established,

719
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways that this can um givoraid

720
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: That story by Borhees, I think it's called talon Uckbar.

721
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: It's about a guy who writes like a fictional story

722
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: and then the objects start bleeding into the real world.

723
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: So I do think DeFi has the potential to bleed

724
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: into the real world and the easiest ways that I

725
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: can imagine that happening early on. Or I do think

726
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: like home loans will be done through this system in

727
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: the not very distant future. I actually think you could

728
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: do it now, but you'd have to be like me,

729
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: like a guy who is willing to do it as

730
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: kind of a stunt, I think right now, but you know,

731
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: there's nothing stopping you. Let's say you have a large

732
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: amount of coins, which a lot of these early crypto

733
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: people do, including bitcoin people who hate this stuff, if

734
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: they come around, you could potentially lock up some of

735
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: your bitcoin in a protocol through rap wrapping it wrap bitcoin,

736
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: and then take a loan against it and stable coins

737
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: and buy a house that you can live in. And

738
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: potentially there are ways to do that where you get

739
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: the money you need but don't even actually lose your collateral.

740
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: It's just sort of sitting there to guarantee your loan. Um.

741
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: So for people like me who like don't have like

742
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: a full time job and haven't for like a decade,

743
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's a weird proposition to try to get

744
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: lent money to buy a house. Um, I have to

745
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: really sort of justify and like, no, I'm a podcast maker.

746
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: I make podcasts. Those kind of things don't really go

747
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: over well with like banks. So I think that's one

748
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: potential application. But I think an even deeper application is

749
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: in company formation itself. I think we will form companies

750
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: in which everything the company does, from earning money to

751
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: paying out money, to even establishing like forms of like

752
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: a constitution that basically dictates how the company is governed,

753
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: all these things can happen on the blockchain. Young people

754
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: are doing it, the same young people that I saw

755
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: in San Francisco doing startups whatever year start up mania

756
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: and San Francisco peaked. Those people are doing this stuff

757
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: within the DeFi world. Now they're forming taws, they're starting protocols.

758
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of defy I think of as

759
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: like people use the metaphor of legos, right, so you

760
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: may not even know which different protocols you're interacting with.

761
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: These protocols are all stacked on top of each other,

762
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: and each of them can earn value. So I think

763
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: it bleeds into the real world when some of those

764
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: legos stop being like things that are just smart contracts

765
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 1: and actually start to interact with the real world or

766
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: became companies that started in a DeFi fashion and then

767
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: are like doing business with the rest of the world.

768
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: And startups are usually the easiest way to understand that,

769
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: because there are things that need a bunch of capital

770
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: quickly for an experimental project that will probably fail, but

771
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: if you invest in one hundred of them, you'll probably

772
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: do pretty well. So I have one more prying question,

773
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 1: which is, on a day your day, what is your seed?

774
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: Please tell us your twelve word seed phrase to your

775
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: metal meth. Well, yeah, does anyone from the I R

776
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: S listen to the show. I'm having exective thoughts about

777
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: some of this. Okay, go ahead, okay, okay, just one more.

778
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: But on a day like today, when you know Elon

779
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: Musk tweeted bitcoin fell, although you know, as we're recording this,

780
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: it's paired some of those losses, but all the crypto coins,

781
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: all the crypto related stocks are all falling. What was

782
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: today like for you, like, what did your yield farming

783
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: portfolio look like? You know, I honestly didn't even check.

784
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: Like most of this yield stuff just kind of happening

785
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: in the background. I'll look and see how much I've made,

786
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: but I'm looking more at the prices of the tokens

787
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: than yields. I think that there are people who are

788
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: just seeking yield out there, but those are people who

789
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: have a lot more capital to start with than I

790
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: do and are like not wanting to risk it, but

791
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: want to just burn yield on like stable coins. I'm

792
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: primarily holding a theoryum and other defy tokens. So when

793
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: I saw that, I actually was happy because I'm an

794
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 1: ethereum true believer, and I believe that ethereum will pass

795
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: Bitcoin at some point, and I am fine with accelerating

796
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: that if it can pass Bitcoin by going up or

797
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: by Bitcoin going down um, and I don't love the

798
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: hostility in the space between the two camps. It's getting

799
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: ugly out there. I will say I I kind of

800
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: left crypto for a year or two, and the new

801
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: thing that that really he came in is true animosity

802
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: between the ethereum and Bitcoin camps. So for me, I

803
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: look into very specifically what was said, which was Alan

804
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: Musk said we're pulling. First of all, I think people

805
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: were playing with fire when they turned Elon and Michael Sailor,

806
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: he was he on the show, Michael Michael. Okay, I

807
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: won't say anything negative about him since he's been on

808
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: the show, but I think I think when you sort

809
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: of create idols out of these people, um, the rug

810
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: can get pulled out from under you, and you know,

811
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: the same thing works the other direction. So the thing

812
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: is the environmental stuff, and I have thoughts about it.

813
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: I know Joe is Um in contact a lot with

814
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: Nick Carter, who has written a lot about this. I'll

815
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: just put say that the environmental stuff is not something

816
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: I consider myself particularly knowledgeable about. But I do know

817
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: that a big difference between Bitcoin and ethereum is that

818
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: ethereum is moving towards proof of steak. And this actually

819
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: all the stuff that we've talked about, it all interlinks.

820
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: When I say that you can earn money by staking

821
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: for atheroryum too, that is staking ethereum that will ultimately

822
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: power the proof of steak system that moves ethereum off.

823
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: Mining Bitcoin has no plans to leave proof of work

824
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 1: mining behind. So it's a really big difference between the

825
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: two of them. For me, when I read that, I

826
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I'm gonna take a small hit here,

827
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: the market's going to come down, But ultimately I think

828
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: it leaves Ethereum stronger than Bitcoin, and I'm hoping that

829
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: more and more of the market shifts away from these

830
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: centralized exchanges that were sort of established during the Bitcoin

831
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: period and moves towards this new Ethereum future of dex is.

832
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,919
Speaker 1: So I know that was kind of a long explanation,

833
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: but like all of those things were coloring my thinking

834
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: about this news event that probably some PR person at

835
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: Tesla Road I don't even know if it had anything

836
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: to do with like the actual lan musk Um, but

837
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: all moves the markets a lot. So this is really

838
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: important and I'm sure we're gonna have to do a

839
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: follow up episode on this. But just so that people understand, currently,

840
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: Ethereum and Bitcoin of roughly the same security mining model.

841
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: People by chips and they expend a lot of energy

842
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: to secure the network and to create new chips, and

843
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: Ethereum has had for several years on its roadmap a

844
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: plan to move from the so called proof of work,

845
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: which is this sort of very computationally intensive, energy intensive system,

846
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: to proof of steak in which that is not going

847
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: to happen, and it's sort of secured by people locking

848
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: up their ethereum in some manner. What is the roadmap

849
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: as you understand it, the timeline for the handover to

850
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: east to the new proof of steak ethereum that will

851
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: not and I know it's been pushed back multiple times

852
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: so that it won't be as computationally expensive. If I

853
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: was like an angry bit corner, I would say, never

854
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: gonna happen right now. And what I would say is

855
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: the next big landmark is July fourteen, so it's soon,

856
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: and it's e I P fififty nine. These are like

857
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: constitutional spend for Ethereum Improvement Protocol that is uh, not

858
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: positive about the P, but it sounds right to me um.

859
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: So it's basically like a change to how ethereum works.

860
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: And these are planned a lot in advance and don't

861
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: always happen, but this one is happening. I would bet

862
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: very strongly that this happens on January on July, So

863
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: right now, when you pay your fee to the etherorem

864
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: your gas fee that goes to miners, or a percentage

865
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: if it goes to miners. That's how we pay all

866
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: these miners, right we're giving them they're they're holding up

867
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: the network. We pay them a fee. After e I p.

868
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: Fifty nine, we're gonna stop paying the miners. Mining is

869
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: going to become less profitable and we're gonna start burning

870
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: that ethereum. And ethereum is going to go from an

871
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 1: inflationary asset. There's more and more ethereum every year. Two

872
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: ethereum has the potential to become deflationary as we burn

873
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: more than it's created. And that's a step towards the

874
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: ultimate goal of going into this proof of steak model

875
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: in which there's no mining at all. In fact, I'm

876
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: not really sure after e I p. Fifteen fifty nine

877
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: whether there will be any mining um. I don't know

878
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: what the timetable for the true shift to proof of

879
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: steak is. But when a lot of this environmental stuff

880
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: came up, people were like, let's do it right now,

881
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: Like there was a movement with an ethereum to expedite it.

882
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: So I think that there is a huge pressure to

883
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: do it and my guess would be by two will

884
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: be you know, in a proof of steak system, there

885
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: may be people who know more about the timing than

886
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: I do. But for people who like me, the next

887
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: big thing that we're thinking about is this e I

888
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: P FIFTNE. It's funny because you go on like CNBC

889
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: and they're doing like a maybe it's not c NBS.

890
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: There was some TV thing that had to like how

891
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: to get into ethereum mining, and like, this is the

892
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: worst possible time to get into ethereum mining. That equipment

893
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: will be trash um in a few months when this happens.

894
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 1: It's not so different right now, but they're on very

895
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: different trajectories with regards to mining, and the people who

896
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: are making the bulk case for ethereum are saying, look,

897
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: we're doing all this stuff and defy, that burns a

898
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: lot of gas. The amount of gas being burned to

899
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: do all this stuff is immense. And if we start

900
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: not paying that out to miners who then sell it

901
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: and instead of literally burning it um, ethereum is just

902
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: going to go through the roof um as it becomes

903
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: deflationary and more people want it and people need it.

904
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: You know, businesses I think will eventually do business within defy.

905
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: People will hold company treasuries in yield farms. I know

906
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: that sounds crazy, but it's coming and all of those

907
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: are gonna need ethereum gas to put their money in

908
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: and out and do stuff. So the big change for

909
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,959
Speaker 1: me with ethereum from you know, getting into this stuff

910
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: with bitcoin is you can actually do stuff with ethereum,

911
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: and when you do stuff, it causes ethereum to be destroyed.

912
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: Post post alive fourteen doage coin is proof of work

913
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: as well. Right, you're just trying to think about what

914
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: Elon Musk's next tweet might be. Honestly, like, he's playing

915
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: so many narrative threads at once that I don't I

916
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: don't even know how all these things can like coexist

917
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: in one space. But yeah, I think Doges is forked

918
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: off of light coin or forked off of something light

919
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: coin related, so it's a descendant of it's merge mind

920
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: with light coin, so light coin miners get doge as well.

921
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: There you go, see Joe's the doge expert in the call.

922
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: But ironically, you know, I don't know if you heard

923
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: about this thing Sheba ask you about that I had

924
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: a question about well, ask asked me the question, and

925
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm not particularly knowledgeable about it, and I know, but

926
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: I did not get any There is this like doge

927
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: um parody whatever it is called Sheba went through the

928
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: moon and it's traded on the Ethereum network and what's

929
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: and it's a joke coin. I mean, I don't think

930
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: anyone really thinks it or doge or anything is as

931
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: like that bright of a future. But that's not But

932
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: that's not the point. The point is it had this

933
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: mania and the trading of the coin got so it's

934
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: got so insane that it significantly drove up the gas

935
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 1: fees for everyone trading on the Ethereum network, is my understanding.

936
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: And this raises a question to me, which is like, okay,

937
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 1: you have this like open blockchain network, anyone can make

938
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: a coin. We saw this in two seventeen with the

939
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: crypto kitties phenomenon where people aren't crazy for that, and

940
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: that was all on the ethereum blockchain, and just trading

941
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: in those drawings of cats themselves caused the fees to rise.

942
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: So as it stands right now, no coin, big coin,

943
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: etherorum whatever, is really that big yet in terms of

944
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: like a meaningful share of like economic activity happening with

945
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: these coins. It's still like sandbox era for the most part.

946
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: So if one joke thing like a Sheiba coin or

947
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 1: crypto kitties taking off among ultimately a fairly small section

948
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: of the population could cause the entire system to jam up,

949
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: does that raise I know, like, how do you think

950
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: about like the future of all these coins or the

951
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: future of ethereum if like a joke or a meme

952
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: coin or whatever can raise everybody's gas fees, including people

953
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: who theoretically have to do various serious transactions in a

954
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: timely manner. If a business is actually going to use

955
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: it for real purposes, people are paying for those transactions,

956
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: so it's not like they're just joking. They are actually

957
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: spending money. They're spending the same money the gas costs

958
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: the same amount is for a joke and for a

959
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: serious purpose. So the friction is there. And the short

960
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: story is that some people believe that people are going

961
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: to flee Ethereum to other networks that are basically clones

962
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: of Ethereum but with miniscule gas prices, and the best

963
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: known one would probably be finance smart chain, and they

964
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: achieve that by sacrificing decentralization exactly, all this stuff is

965
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: super easy, and you can do a gazillion throughput whatever

966
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: if it's just running on a server somewhere. We've solved

967
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: these problems for centralized currencies. It's much harder to do

968
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 1: in a decentralized way. So the answer for if you

969
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 1: don't think the future is everyone just trading on a

970
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: centralized finance system is Layer two. And Layer two, like

971
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: e I P. Fifteen fifty nine, is something that's like

972
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: incoming right now in Ethereum. There's already certain ways you

973
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: can use it, and there'll be a lot more by

974
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: this summer. And as I understand it, there's basically two

975
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: major threads of how we can deal with these congestion

976
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: problems with Layer two. The first way is through Ethereum

977
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 1: side chains, and the most famous one is probably Maddic.

978
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: I think they've rebranded as Polygon, and Maddic is actually

979
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: a different network. Like if you're in meta mask, you

980
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: have to go off Ethereum network and onto Madic network,

981
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: which isn't the easiest thing, but Maddic basically takes all

982
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: of the protocol level stuff that's going on with Ethereum

983
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: and lets you do it on their own, still decentralized,

984
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: but not Ethereum main net, and pay sense on the

985
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: dollar in terms of fees. So I'm actually farming on

986
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 1: MADIC right now, and because Madic is trying to larn

987
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: people to do that, the incentives are excellent. Um. I'm

988
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: using the the Madic unit swap clone. It's called quick swap,

989
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: and quip swap is offering all sorts of incentives to

990
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: do to provide liquidity, So I'm providing some liquidity there.

991
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: You do still pay a gas fee when you jump

992
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: between the Ethereum network and the Maddic now at work.

993
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: I don't actually think that is going to be the

994
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: implementation that solves this. I think the implementation is going

995
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: to be something called roll ups. And my understanding is

996
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: that unit swap, the new unit swap will eventually use

997
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: roll ups uh to lessen fees. And I can't tell

998
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: you how they work technically, but basically it batches a

999
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: large number of transactions in the space that currently only

1000
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: a few transactions can fit, and uses some dynamic system

1001
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: and that should allow for a lot more throughput directly

1002
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: on the Ethereum main net. This is probably like the

1003
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: biggest issue in DeFi right now is figuring this stuff out,

1004
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: because as the price of ethereum keeps going up, it's

1005
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: not so much that gas fees are high right now.

1006
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: They are, they're high scaled by the price of ethereum.

1007
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: So one important concept I think for people listening is

1008
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: that whatever network you're on, you pay the native token

1009
00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: and gas. So when you're on the Ethereum main net,

1010
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: you pay ethereum, when you're on the finance smart chain

1011
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: you pay B and B, and when you're on the

1012
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: Madic network you pay Madic. So ethereums in this tricky

1013
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: position where not only is the the network congested, the

1014
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: coin itself has seen you know, ten x gains over

1015
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: the last year, and the gas fees are scaled by that.

1016
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: I think there's also a counter argument that some of

1017
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: the friction and high gas fees is not a terrible thing.

1018
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: It actually causes people to only want to use your

1019
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: chain for serious things, So you know, I guess you

1020
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: could look at Sheba as a counter example of that,

1021
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: although I think the Sheba era is now already over

1022
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: because Metalic just dumped all of his Sheba, but overall,

1023
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: some people might say, it's not such a bad thing

1024
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: that it's really expensive to do something on the network,

1025
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: people will only do things that are valuable instead of

1026
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: what you saw when gas was really cheap, which is

1027
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: a lot of like front running bots and things like

1028
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: that that are basically just trying to extract stall small

1029
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: amounts of value and that becomes unprofitable as gas becomes expensive.

1030
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: I think that's a great place to leave it. So no,

1031
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: we only have like ten more episodes to do on

1032
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: this before I start understanding it a little bit. But actually, Aaron,

1033
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: that was fantastic. And I think you're a great guest

1034
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: because you yourself are a podcaster and you know how

1035
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: to speak. That was great. I really appreciate it. I

1036
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: wish I could get someone like Hayden to explain some

1037
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: of this stuff to me, because honestly, the deeper this

1038
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: DeFi stuff goes, it's like it's like I I was

1039
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: here for algebra, but I'm not here for calculus. That

1040
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: was great, Aaron, And UH really appreciate you, uh joining us,

1041
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you very much. Thanks Sara, take care

1042
00:59:43,400 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: and thanks a lout. It really that would great. I

1043
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: actually I did learn quite a lot from Aaron on this,

1044
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: I still have like a million more things, and they're

1045
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: like all kinds of technical market mechanic questions, But I

1046
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: thought he did a great job of explaining some of

1047
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: the some of the basics of trading on these networks

1048
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: and where the opportunities come from. There's definitely a lot there. Uh.

1049
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: And it's kind of funny how each one of our

1050
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: crypto episodes lately just leads to another crypto episode, this

1051
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: one in particular, I think we're probably gonna walk away

1052
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: with at least five ideas for new episodes. But on

1053
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: that note, it does also sound like it's a pretty

1054
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: labor intensive activity. And I think this is a theme

1055
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: that we've talked about at various points in time, when

1056
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: you get into a new market, when you spot some

1057
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: sort of arbitrage opportunity, like it takes a lot of

1058
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 1: work to do that sometimes. And I know Aaron was

1059
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: talking about how there are automated yield faring strategies and

1060
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,439
Speaker 1: things like that, but just this notion of going through

1061
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of new coins trying to figure out

1062
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: which one's look most promising or which ones have the

1063
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: nicest logo, that's a lot of work. It is a

1064
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: lot of work, and I but I do think that

1065
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: that really is like a consistent theme crypto or not

1066
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: crypto that like I guess the sort of the richest

1067
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: trading environment for like an actual like trader are in

1068
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: markets that are just like not even close to efficient.

1069
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: And I always like go back to like our god

1070
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: our interview with like Doug Ceafood the virtue CEO, which

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01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: is like could not be more opposite than this in

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01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: terms of like a market that's just gotten, you know,

1073
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: the stock market that's like so insanely hyper efficient, the

1074
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: market for listed US equities, and there's like this like

1075
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: crazy spectrum of like I keep thinking about this, like

1076
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: Doug on one end and guys like Sam bankman Fred

1077
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: or Erin on the other end, and the amount of

1078
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: like just the literal amount of work that it is

1079
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: to like execute a trade or like switch over to

1080
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: another protocol or whatever. It's like this like fascinating whole spectrum.

1081
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: And but you know, the richest opportunities are in like

1082
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: whether there's just a lot of work to work involved.

1083
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 1: I have another prying question, but this time for you, Oh,

1084
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: why is whale hunting your like model, your de facto

1085
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: model for finance. For the purpose of finance, you brought

1086
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 1: it up like three times. Now. There's a great book

1087
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: that came out a year ago that was basically about

1088
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: the history of whaling. I forget the title. I'll tweet

1089
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 1: it out after this I'll find it and then people

1090
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: can go find me on Twitter and tweet it out.

1091
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: But that is basically like making the case that like

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01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: the venture capital the venture capital was founded with whaling.

1093
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: That the first like if you trace the history of VC,

1094
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: you could sort of like draw this lineage that goes

1095
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: back to people funding whaling expeditions because the distribution of

1096
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: the returns of whaling, which is that you had a

1097
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: few expeditions, they got tons of whales and tons of

1098
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: blubber and oil, and they paid for tons of failed

1099
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: expeditions where people died or didn't catch anything or had

1100
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: to turn around. And that was like the first sort

1101
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: of like VC investing it. So like that is my

1102
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: model essentially for like the purpose of finance, which is

1103
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: to essentially create liquid markets out of like these sort

1104
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: of sort of like matchup entities that have a lot

1105
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: of like cash and have one risk profile versus entities

1106
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: that are just the highly liquid and so I keep

1107
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: like going back to that is like the sort of

1108
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: like that is the purpose of finance on some like

1109
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: deep level. See, so now we're going to have to

1110
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: do a whaling episode. Yeah, that's your right, we should

1111
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 1: talk to that's the next episode is well, let's find

1112
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: that book. I'll find it, we'll get the author, and

1113
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the history of whaling. Because yeah, I

1114
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: guess that makes sense. Why do I keep talking about whaling?

1115
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: That is the reason I'm glad you asked? All right, um,

1116
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This

1117
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm

1118
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy

1119
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: Alloway and I'm Joe wi isn't Thal. You can follow

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01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Be sure to follow

1121
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: our guest Erin Lammer. He is the host of the

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01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: new podcast Exit Scam. Definitely want to check that out.

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01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: His handle is at Aaron Lamber. Follow our producer Laura Carlson.

1124
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: She's at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast,

1125
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: Francesco Levi at Francesca Today, and check out all of

1126
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: our podcasts at Bloomberg, under the handle at Podcasts. Thanks

1127
01:04:34,440 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: for listening, O.