WEBVTT - Kyle Franz - Part 1 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.200 All right, we are back for another edition of the 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.840 Friday Egg Podcast. Today I hosted Kyle Franz on the podcast, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:13.800 and due to Kyle's graciousness with his time, we actually 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.320 are going to split this into two parts to make 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.000 it a little bit easier to digest. Thanks for listening. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.240 As always, if you like the podcast, please rate us 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.440 and write us a review in the iTunes store or stitcher. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.200 And also, if you haven't yet signed up for the 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.920 newsletter that goes out every Monday Wednesday Friday. We write 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.520 a lot about golf course architecture in it, especially on Fridays. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.519 We did this new deep dive portion, so if you 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.159 haven't signed up for the newsletter, please sign up, and 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.000 without further ado, here is Kyle Franz. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.720 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.120 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:54.520 And when I find my ball. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.520 In a Frida Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.880 Frida Egg Egg, fridagg Bride Egg, I'm about ready to 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:29.520 run off the golf course. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:34.640 to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today we are 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:39.679 talking with Kyle Franz, a up and coming golf course architect. 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:45.520 Kyle's most famous work has been his restoration of Midpines 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:50.080 down in the Pinehurst area, and he's also worked with 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:54.720 many of the top architects and is currently consulting on 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.880 restorations of many top Golden Age golf courses, including Seth Rayner, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.800 a couple of ross courses, and a few styles Van 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.080 Cleek courses up in the Northeast. Kyle, welcome on. 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.640 Thank you very much, Andy, excited to be on. Can't 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.880 thank you enough for for inviting me on and looking 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.240 forward to chat about architecture the last week since we 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.160 started discussing something coming on. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.920 Yeah, Yeah, excited to talk with you. You get a 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.680 wealth of knowledge and experience and and you know, having 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:32.120 worked with all these different guys including you know, Corn Crenshaw, Doak, 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:37.400 Gil Hans and you know Kyle Phelps, it's it's pretty 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.320 cool that you've gotten to see so much. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.600 Well, thanks appreciate it. You know, I've I've been really 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.400 very very lucky in my career thus far, and hopefully 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.560 we'll continue going the same direction. You know. Uh, certainly 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.280 can't thank Tom Doak enough for the giving me the 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.960 opportunity right out of the gates, uh internship at Pacific 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.240 Dunes out in Bandon, and and all the opportunities I've 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.200 got from from all of my mentors, you know, Bill 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.840 and Ben at Byner Simmer two and Gil working on 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.480 the re Olympics course. A lot of really fun and 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.840 interesting courses along the way, both from a restoration standpoint 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.320 and new built. So it's a very exciting, very exciting 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.160 run for somebody who grew up wanted to go in 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.520 the golf course design business, and unfortunately everything is worked 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:26.200 out thus far. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.160 So yeah, so how did you get into design? You did? 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:31.840 You know at a young age this is what you 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:32.480 wanted to do. 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.880 I did, Yeah, you know, I was as I Joe 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:38.600 for many years. I was kind of like the ultimate 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.320 golf kid growing up. My mom got me in a 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.480 membership at a little public golf course, a little nineteen 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.480 twenties era golf course on a very weird piece of ground, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.520 almost like to make a long geologic story short, it 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.920 had like these very long running ridges and valleys everywhere 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.840 from a catastrophic flood that had happened eons and eons 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.720 a go, and they had no real uh, irrigation system. 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.320 Uh in in modern terms anyway, it was one of 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.920 my first jobs was putting on couplers and fairways and 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.120 in the middle of the night and uh, but it 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.799 gave me an appreciation for you know, just good solid 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:22.960 routing and uh and fun quirky architecture on on wild, 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.560 weird ground and uh. And this was in western Oregon, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.039 you know, a place where you wudn't expect to find 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.880 sort of an oddity, uh of from a land standpoint, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.599 and uh, you know, I just kind of went with 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.080 it from there. You know, I really uh, I really 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.400 loved playing golf, and I played like four hundred and 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:47.280 seventy eight straight days once actually, and uh and just became, 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.600 you know, interested in architecture. I think got a lot 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.040 of people become interested in architecture. I think probably the 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.599 difference is I really generally wanted to write from the 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.240 very beginning. You know, I would get a hold of 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.520 uh you know, uh old magazine articles, the top one 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.479 hundred rankings, uh, you know, major championship previews, and I 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.880 just pour over all the information went through Tom Doak's 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.560 books at an early age, and then kind of got 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.480 ahold of a lot of the old classics and just 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.039 kind of went from there that I really kind of 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.239 decided during my high school years that it was something 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.640 that that I would really like to do. And uh, 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.560 you know, I uh, I would meet people and just 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:24.920 uh it would be kind of amazed that I knew 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.760 as much about architecture as I did for having never 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:28.800 been anywhere. 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:28.880 As a kid. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.320 You know, I met some guys that had played at 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.159 Pine Valley, uh and we're not far from live not 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.039 far from there, and they actually send me like a 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.680 scorecard and and a map of the golf course. So 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.960 I would just you know, just just absorb information just 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.800 like uh, just like a lot of kids collect baseball cards, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.359 you know, in your youth. And uh. So I was 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.000 I really wanted to go into it. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:52.160 I didn't really. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:53.719 Quite know how to do it. You know. I was 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.599 uh working on the mainest staff of my my home course, 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.000 which you know, again it was a very limited budget 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.400 sort of place, and uh and I asked, I asked 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.479 Tom Doak for for for a job at Pacific Dunes, 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.000 really begged and begged for it, and uh and he 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.120 was nice enough to uh to give me a shot. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.360 You know, I was, I was studying turf management in 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.359 school at that point, and didn't know whether I should 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.360 jump in the landscape architecture at Oregon or stay with 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:26.320 turf at Oregon States, and uh, but I uh, it all, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:27.960 it all kind of came in line for me when 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:29.839 I worked at Pacific Dunes. It really gave me a 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:34.440 very vivid understanding of the business and uh, really what 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.080 it takes to really do great architecture right from the 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.159 get go, you know. I mean, it's obviously one of 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.200 the best pieces of land that anybody's been handed in 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:46.760 the last eighty years, Pacific Dunes. But uh, what really, 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.200 what really I was impressed with was, uh was the 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.880 level of detail. You know. Obviously I knew that Tom 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.520 was an exceptional designer, having ready his his his books 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.200 and and followed his career through through the nineties as 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.440 he made the ascent of getting a project like that. 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.640 But I was enormously impressed with the with the talent 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.039 and uh level of dedication of of the other guys 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.680 that were on the project, like Chimberbina and uh and 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.840 Brian Slanik, you know, his associates, and the fact that 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.320 you know they they also would kind of throw you know, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.520 a young guy like me out there to uh, you know, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.320 give stuff a shot and uh and to really contribute 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:24.680 right out of the gates. It was a lot of 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.920 fun because you know, I I stood the architecture so 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:33.200 closely to an obsessive, compulsive sort of level. But to 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.040 uh to get out there and Tom, you know, let 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.480 me shape this or or let me you know, handle 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.760 the grassing on that, and uh and just you know, 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.520 throw ideas. He is a nineteen year old kid, but 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.640 Tom would. Tom was always absorbing ideas from everyone. You know, 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.280 he was Uh, he was fun to work for like that, 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.240 and the fact that uh he always has obviously you know, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.600 he's one of the best architects ever. Say, this is 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.840 a very strong vision for where everything's going and what 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.600 he wants to do. But he'll just throw throw people 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.640 out there and see if they come back with something better, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:07.720 and if it's good, they'll, uh he'll go with it, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.040 and if if not, it'll come up with something better. 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:11.679 So it was a lot of fun to work for Tom. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:13.560 Right out of the gates. It was kind of a 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.680 surreal experience to be out there on my first internship 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:22.080 and uh, uh you know, be standing there in a hole, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.720 he asked. My opinion. No, just it's a young guy, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.000 you know. Uh, certainly again, certainly well studied on architecture, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.120 but maybe not with the experience of having you got 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.760 to get out and visit and study golf courses just 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.720 being a teenager. So that's how I kind of got 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.840 started with it. Uh, you know, I started working for 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.360 Tom and worked at Stonewall in Pennsylvania and then went 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.679 bound down to barn Google Dunes and uh got to 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.760 kind of expand my role on on projects working working 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.560 down there, and you know, it was really an amazing experience. 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:52.880 I mean, working on two of the three highest rated 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.400 golf courses built in the last eight years was pretty crazy. Oh, 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.360 we're gonna do this every year, you know. Uh, And 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.840 obviously it doesn't work out that, but it was certainly 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.640 a lot of fun. So I'll always be very appreciative 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:07.920 of the opportunities that Tom gave me to to get 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.840 into the business and take a shot at it. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:11.560 Sometimes I think. 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.880 It's probably a lot of people who have tried to 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.840 take taking this route have realized, you know, the hardest 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.200 part is almost the first, the first getting your first 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:20.240 opportunity to at it. 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:25.120 So Yeah, it's that internship program Tom has. It is 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.720 a you know, it's a great it's pretty cool to 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.880 see how many of the young architects like yourself have 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.680 come out of it. And you know it's you know, 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.680 getting that hands on experience so early is critical to 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.080 I imagine your development as an architect. So you mentioned 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.320 playing golf four hundred and seventy eight days in a row. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.360 Yep, right, when. 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.199 When did this happen? And I mean. 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.480 It was it was when I was aged thirteen, fourteen. 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.439 I believe, yeah, some we're right there. My mom got 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.520 me this, you know, this membership of this little public 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.880 golf course, and uh and I just went and I 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.000 just played every single day. And not all of them 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.920 were like nine or eighteen holes, but uh I got 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.360 it at least. You know, it's Oregon winter weather western Oregon. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.400 It rains a lot, but it doesn't snow very much. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.520 So uh so I just started playing and playing. And 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.000 I think part of it is some of some point 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:24.040 in there, I was like, oh, I gotta keep the 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.360 streak a lot. I got play three or six holes today, 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:29.880 but uh yeah, I finally got We finally had a 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.000 snowstorm February ninety five that busted up the streak. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.719 So so that's when it ended with a snowstorm. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.240 Yep, finally, finally just couldn't go out there and do it. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.800 I probably could have snuck in one more day, but 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:44.720 it started to spit with snow out there. I'm like, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.240 I think I'm done. It was a good run. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.680 So what I feel like like the first day without 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.000 golf or you just not knowing what to do. 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:55.600 I'm trying to. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.679 Think, you know, I think, uh, well, when you grow 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.400 up in western Oregon, you know, it's kind of a 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.920 novelly when it snows because it doesn't really do it 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.760 very much because of the sort of moderated oceanic climate climate. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.720 So I was probably looking forward to being a fourteen 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.520 year old kid is getting out and uh uh, you know, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.360 going out and doing some cookies with my friends in 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.680 the car. So my mom probably wouldn't have wanted us 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:20.120 to do but choking aside and yeah, you know, uh uh, 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.200 it was tough for my streak. Then I was hoping 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:23.480 there was gonna make it five hundred. 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.880 So that's I mean, that's crazy. I wonder what the like, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.439 the longest streak anybody's ever had? It. It's got to 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.160 be close. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.680 Uh, there's got to be somebody out there that's cracked 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:36.199 a thousand. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:36.880 You know. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.880 It's amazing to me some of the folks at clubs 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.160 that that I work at, you know, how how dedicated 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:44.760 they are out there every day. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:46.920 Rain or shine doesn't make any difference. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:47.560 Who knows. 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:48.840 It's a good question though. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.320 Yeah has said. I grew up working at a club 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.319 and one guy, an older I show up at the 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:59.160 same exact time every single day. It was like at 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.040 n have his bag on a cart, like ready for 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.240 him to go to the range. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.559 Those those are the people that you really love to 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.480 do this work for, you know, the people that really 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.280 get out there and appreciate it. You know, the greatest 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.360 golf courses in the world. You know. I've always made 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:23.000 the analogy that it reminds me of how one of 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.120 my professors in school to describe great writing. You know 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.439 that in great writing, there's not a word, a phrase, 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.240 or or or any detail of the writing that isn't 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.800 absolutely perfect. That that isn't just perfect in literal terms, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.360 but it kind of takes it all tough. It's a 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.200 higher level. And that's the way that look at great 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.000 architecture when you think of you know, Royal Dornock or 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.280 Pinerist number two, the old course, every little homp and 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.319 every little bump out there, you know, a rise that 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.280 making it all nearly perfect. You know, you're always learning 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.360 something about the golf course so to speak, you know, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.280 and all the interesting so you can you can find 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.200 out there. And you know, as designers, I always kind of, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:06.719 you know, take a step back and one it's like, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.200 how much do people really really notice the the intricacies 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.040 that we try and put into architecture like that? You know, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.800 I think that's one of the strengths of that. I 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:20.360 marvel that, you know, what Pacific Dunes was, the the quality, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.040 the details and trying to get it to you know, 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.280 that level, the fun shots around. 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:26.280 The greens, et cetera. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.120 You always wonder how much people really uh catch on 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.320 to that sort of stuff. And but you know that 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.760 the people that play every single day like that, and 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.800 really even if they're interested in architecture or not, they'll 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.280 slowly figure out all those cool little things that we 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:45.480 that we throw into the the equation. So I especially 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.280 really enjoy doing the design work for for those kinds 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.440 of people, you know, My favorite events here at mid 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.240 Pins Pine Needles are they have the US kids in 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.800 the summertime, and you know, uh, the golf courses are 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.600 basically invaded by you know, ten to fifteen year old 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.560 kids for an entire week, and I always really enjoy 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.640 it because I hope that the kids are as excited 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.960 about what they see out on the golf course Ross's 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.439 great old designs and the work that we have put 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.880 into restoring them, that they are really impacted the same 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.160 way that I was when I was a kid, you know, 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.320 in high school or before that, like the period that 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.000 we were talking about. When I go to cool places, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:31.640 you know USGA caliber courses like Portland Golf Club, and 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.600 you know, I really hope the kids enjoy it the 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.280 way that I did go into those. But even just 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.960 the people you know day to day that come and 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.920 play golf at Midpines Pine Needles. You know, a guy 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.240 by the name of a Jay Michols will become one 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.320 of my best friends to play golf with, you know, 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.880 an older gentleman, maybe sixty five or seventy or so. 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:53.880 And Jay plays every single day. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:58.200 He played all the way almost every day through the 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.640 Midpines Restoration so he was always watching what we were doing, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.200 and uh, I got to know him kind of through that. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:06.720 A lot of guys like that, whether it's you know, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.360 Chris Bowie, the great writer of Ross's work, or Ran 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.200 Morrison who lives here in town. You know, those guys 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.600 are always coming out and playing and it's really fun 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.360 to uh to hear their feedback on the work that 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.520 we do and uh and for them to enjoy it, 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.600 you know. Uh, that's pretty cool. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.320 So mid Times was you know, you kind of your 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.320 first shot, you know what was the I guess not 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.520 the first shot, but you know, first like major restoration, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.560 and from all signs, I haven't been down there. Everybody 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.640 raise about it and the first time has ever been 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.520 in a top one hundred list. After the restoration, tell 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.120 tell us a little bit about the that project and 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.160 you know kind of where where the course was and 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.760 where you've taken it to and you know it, you 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.080 know the things you learned during the project. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.760 Sure, well, well, uh, how I got kind of started 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.800 with it was well obviously worked on the restoration of 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.920 of Piner's Number two, as we discussed briefly before for 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.640 Core and Crunch Shop. So I was really really uh, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.040 really need a good place to take on a project 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:17.960 like it. You know, I did a lot of research 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.120 in the in the tough garf guys while we're working 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.160 on Number two, and I was always noticing Midpines. Uh 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.000 and uh you know John Jeffery is, Kevin Robbinson Bob Firm, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:32.080 you know the Pinehurst Uh uh Main, it's main. It's 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.200 guys that suggested I go see Midpines. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:34.720 Uh. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.360 Since the greens had really never been changed very much, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.200 only a couple of greens that really kind of been 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.640 tinkered with it all. So it was a great opportunity 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.880 to go see Ross's original uh original work. Uh here Uh, 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.120 since you know Piner's number two greens that I was 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.120 been switched to U S g A greens at some point, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.520 so they've been reshaped, but they're still very close to 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.600 the uh the originals, but midpoints you can go see 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.080 what we call the final float, the final raking, and 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.960 perfect detail of what Ross's style was exactly exactly like. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.800 So I would come over and look at the golf 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.479 course during the Number two work and got to know 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:14.120 Kelly Miller and the Miller Belle McAllan family and kind 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.120 of got started just kind of talking about the golf course. 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.520 You know, I'd found many photos of of Pineher's number 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.080 two in the tough garf guys from the nineteen twenties 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.720 and thirties, you know, the period when the golf course 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.280 had been completed by Ross, and it was really just 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.919 very impressive to what I saw in modern terms and 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.639 especially back then. So I started speaking with Kelly about 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.879 the opportunity to try and restore it. They wanted to 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.280 do a a greens re grassing project and switch them 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.520 from from bent grass back over to riudeo grass as 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.359 they originally were, and you know, I just kind of started, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.600 you know, throwing ideas at him of what they could 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.439 what they could do. I did some several photoshops of 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.280 what I of what the holes originally looked like, you know, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:04.159 react adding the uh the sand hills sandhills details, you know, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:09.480 the the natural bunkers and uh uh sandy hard pain 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.560 areas around the holes, which were such a unique feature 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.880 that we obviously reacted with number two. And I think 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.520 they were pretty intrigued to to try that as as 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.240 much as as possible and will be practical for the 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.560 for the course. You know, as I always say, it's 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.040 it's kind of like Pine Valley, but playable for the 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.480 for the normal person. Uh, since it's not not as 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.760 uh you know, Penal. You know, the the ground is 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.760 so much firmer here in the sandy areas. So you know, 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.600 we just kind of started talking about it and and 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.560 uh they really liked the photoshops and my ideas for 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.480 for what uh the holes looked like or I thought 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.359 they looked like, and uh started throwing together plans for 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.800 it in that autumn of it was twenty twelve, and 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:57.200 uh just kind of went from there with it. We 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.000 uh we broke around just after Thanksgiving that year. And 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.199 I think the thing that was most intriguing to me 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.840 about the golf courses is, while it's the same general 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.960 style is Pineer's number two U and Ross's work here. 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.439 He tried to make all of the golf courses that 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.400 he worked on here a little bit different stylistically. While 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.080 the Bunkers were all natural and rugged and had the 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.520 sandy hard pain areas, uh, you know, the overall style 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.359 of each golf course is a little bit different from 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.000 the other one. So I really really worked hard to 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.880 draft off of that of his original concepts and get 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.360 them to work for for modern play. So a lot 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.720 of fun. You know, a lot of our of restoration 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.480 architectures is one part design and the other part is 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.560 kind of archaeology and trying to figure out what was 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:48.679 actually in the original designers heads. And uh, it's been 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.240 a lot of fun to do that on all the 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:51.520 golf courses I've worked on here. 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.159 Now, yeah, I really want to get down to that 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.160 tough sarchive. It's see. That's one of the cool things 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.040 about Ross is how much of his work is preserved 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.600 and and you know, kept in a singular place. I 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.000 wish that was the case. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.760 With more architects in terms of you know, having worked 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.399 with a lot of Ross courses, what what would you 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:17.080 say is kind of the most underappreciated aspect of Ross's 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:18.080 design career. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.439 Boy, that's a that's a difficult question, I think for 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.399 the fact that you know, his design style varied so 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.320 much during the course of his career. You know, his 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.320 New England work is completely different to his work in 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:37.280 the in the UH, in the Sandhills and and in 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.920 other portions of the country. You know, I would say 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.800 that for me as a as a thirty thousand square 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.760 or a thirty thousand foot answer to the question. 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:48.760 I think the thing. 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.879 That that probably is is underappreciated is I think a 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:53.680 lot of times when you kind of watch a major 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.600 championship that's played on a ross course or what have you, 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.760