Speaker 1: All right, we are back for another edition of the
Speaker 1: Friday Egg Podcast. Today I hosted Kyle Franz on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and due to Kyle's graciousness with his time, we actually
Speaker 1: are going to split this into two parts to make
Speaker 1: it a little bit easier to digest. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: As always, if you like the podcast, please rate us
Speaker 1: and write us a review in the iTunes store or stitcher.
Speaker 1: And also, if you haven't yet signed up for the
Speaker 1: newsletter that goes out every Monday Wednesday Friday. We write
Speaker 1: a lot about golf course architecture in it, especially on Fridays.
Speaker 1: We did this new deep dive portion, so if you
Speaker 1: haven't signed up for the newsletter, please sign up, and
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Kyle Franz.
Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 3: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 3: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 1: In a Frida Egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday,
Speaker 1: Frida Egg Egg, fridagg Bride Egg, I'm about ready to
Speaker 1: run off the golf course. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back
Speaker 1: to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today we are
Speaker 1: talking with Kyle Franz, a up and coming golf course architect.
Speaker 1: Kyle's most famous work has been his restoration of Midpines
Speaker 1: down in the Pinehurst area, and he's also worked with
Speaker 1: many of the top architects and is currently consulting on
Speaker 1: restorations of many top Golden Age golf courses, including Seth Rayner,
Speaker 1: a couple of ross courses, and a few styles Van
Speaker 1: Cleek courses up in the Northeast. Kyle, welcome on.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Andy, excited to be on. Can't
Speaker 2: thank you enough for for inviting me on and looking
Speaker 2: forward to chat about architecture the last week since we
Speaker 2: started discussing something coming on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, excited to talk with you. You get a
Speaker 1: wealth of knowledge and experience and and you know, having
Speaker 1: worked with all these different guys including you know, Corn Crenshaw, Doak,
Speaker 1: Gil Hans and you know Kyle Phelps, it's it's pretty
Speaker 1: cool that you've gotten to see so much.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks appreciate it. You know, I've I've been really
Speaker 2: very very lucky in my career thus far, and hopefully
Speaker 2: we'll continue going the same direction. You know. Uh, certainly
Speaker 2: can't thank Tom Doak enough for the giving me the
Speaker 2: opportunity right out of the gates, uh internship at Pacific
Speaker 2: Dunes out in Bandon, and and all the opportunities I've
Speaker 2: got from from all of my mentors, you know, Bill
Speaker 2: and Ben at Byner Simmer two and Gil working on
Speaker 2: the re Olympics course. A lot of really fun and
Speaker 2: interesting courses along the way, both from a restoration standpoint
Speaker 2: and new built. So it's a very exciting, very exciting
Speaker 2: run for somebody who grew up wanted to go in
Speaker 2: the golf course design business, and unfortunately everything is worked
Speaker 2: out thus far.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so how did you get into design? You did?
Speaker 1: You know at a young age this is what you
Speaker 1: wanted to do.
Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, you know, I was as I Joe
Speaker 2: for many years. I was kind of like the ultimate
Speaker 2: golf kid growing up. My mom got me in a
Speaker 2: membership at a little public golf course, a little nineteen
Speaker 2: twenties era golf course on a very weird piece of ground,
Speaker 2: almost like to make a long geologic story short, it
Speaker 2: had like these very long running ridges and valleys everywhere
Speaker 2: from a catastrophic flood that had happened eons and eons
Speaker 2: a go, and they had no real uh, irrigation system.
Speaker 2: Uh in in modern terms anyway, it was one of
Speaker 2: my first jobs was putting on couplers and fairways and
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and uh, but it
Speaker 2: gave me an appreciation for you know, just good solid
Speaker 2: routing and uh and fun quirky architecture on on wild,
Speaker 2: weird ground and uh. And this was in western Oregon,
Speaker 2: you know, a place where you wudn't expect to find
Speaker 2: sort of an oddity, uh of from a land standpoint,
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, I just kind of went with
Speaker 2: it from there. You know, I really uh, I really
Speaker 2: loved playing golf, and I played like four hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy eight straight days once actually, and uh and just became,
Speaker 2: you know, interested in architecture. I think got a lot
Speaker 2: of people become interested in architecture. I think probably the
Speaker 2: difference is I really generally wanted to write from the
Speaker 2: very beginning. You know, I would get a hold of
Speaker 2: uh you know, uh old magazine articles, the top one
Speaker 2: hundred rankings, uh, you know, major championship previews, and I
Speaker 2: just pour over all the information went through Tom Doak's
Speaker 2: books at an early age, and then kind of got
Speaker 2: ahold of a lot of the old classics and just
Speaker 2: kind of went from there that I really kind of
Speaker 2: decided during my high school years that it was something
Speaker 2: that that I would really like to do. And uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I uh, I would meet people and just
Speaker 2: uh it would be kind of amazed that I knew
Speaker 2: as much about architecture as I did for having never
Speaker 2: been anywhere.
Speaker 3: As a kid.
Speaker 2: You know, I met some guys that had played at
Speaker 2: Pine Valley, uh and we're not far from live not
Speaker 2: far from there, and they actually send me like a
Speaker 2: scorecard and and a map of the golf course. So
Speaker 2: I would just you know, just just absorb information just
Speaker 2: like uh, just like a lot of kids collect baseball cards,
Speaker 2: you know, in your youth. And uh. So I was
Speaker 2: I really wanted to go into it.
Speaker 3: I didn't really.
Speaker 2: Quite know how to do it. You know. I was
Speaker 2: uh working on the mainest staff of my my home course,
Speaker 2: which you know, again it was a very limited budget
Speaker 2: sort of place, and uh and I asked, I asked
Speaker 2: Tom Doak for for for a job at Pacific Dunes,
Speaker 2: really begged and begged for it, and uh and he
Speaker 2: was nice enough to uh to give me a shot.
Speaker 2: You know, I was, I was studying turf management in
Speaker 2: school at that point, and didn't know whether I should
Speaker 2: jump in the landscape architecture at Oregon or stay with
Speaker 2: turf at Oregon States, and uh, but I uh, it all,
Speaker 2: it all kind of came in line for me when
Speaker 2: I worked at Pacific Dunes. It really gave me a
Speaker 2: very vivid understanding of the business and uh, really what
Speaker 2: it takes to really do great architecture right from the
Speaker 2: get go, you know. I mean, it's obviously one of
Speaker 2: the best pieces of land that anybody's been handed in
Speaker 2: the last eighty years, Pacific Dunes. But uh, what really,
Speaker 2: what really I was impressed with was, uh was the
Speaker 2: level of detail. You know. Obviously I knew that Tom
Speaker 2: was an exceptional designer, having ready his his his books
Speaker 2: and and followed his career through through the nineties as
Speaker 2: he made the ascent of getting a project like that.
Speaker 2: But I was enormously impressed with the with the talent
Speaker 2: and uh level of dedication of of the other guys
Speaker 2: that were on the project, like Chimberbina and uh and
Speaker 2: Brian Slanik, you know, his associates, and the fact that
Speaker 2: you know they they also would kind of throw you know,
Speaker 2: a young guy like me out there to uh, you know,
Speaker 2: give stuff a shot and uh and to really contribute
Speaker 2: right out of the gates. It was a lot of
Speaker 2: fun because you know, I I stood the architecture so
Speaker 2: closely to an obsessive, compulsive sort of level. But to
Speaker 2: uh to get out there and Tom, you know, let
Speaker 2: me shape this or or let me you know, handle
Speaker 2: the grassing on that, and uh and just you know,
Speaker 2: throw ideas. He is a nineteen year old kid, but
Speaker 2: Tom would. Tom was always absorbing ideas from everyone. You know,
Speaker 2: he was Uh, he was fun to work for like that,
Speaker 2: and the fact that uh he always has obviously you know,
Speaker 2: he's one of the best architects ever. Say, this is
Speaker 2: a very strong vision for where everything's going and what
Speaker 2: he wants to do. But he'll just throw throw people
Speaker 2: out there and see if they come back with something better,
Speaker 2: and if it's good, they'll, uh he'll go with it,
Speaker 2: and if if not, it'll come up with something better.
Speaker 2: So it was a lot of fun to work for Tom.
Speaker 2: Right out of the gates. It was kind of a
Speaker 2: surreal experience to be out there on my first internship
Speaker 2: and uh, uh you know, be standing there in a hole,
Speaker 2: he asked. My opinion. No, just it's a young guy,
Speaker 2: you know. Uh, certainly again, certainly well studied on architecture,
Speaker 2: but maybe not with the experience of having you got
Speaker 2: to get out and visit and study golf courses just
Speaker 2: being a teenager. So that's how I kind of got
Speaker 2: started with it. Uh, you know, I started working for
Speaker 2: Tom and worked at Stonewall in Pennsylvania and then went
Speaker 2: bound down to barn Google Dunes and uh got to
Speaker 2: kind of expand my role on on projects working working
Speaker 2: down there, and you know, it was really an amazing experience.
Speaker 2: I mean, working on two of the three highest rated
Speaker 2: golf courses built in the last eight years was pretty crazy. Oh,
Speaker 2: we're gonna do this every year, you know. Uh, And
Speaker 2: obviously it doesn't work out that, but it was certainly
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. So I'll always be very appreciative
Speaker 2: of the opportunities that Tom gave me to to get
Speaker 2: into the business and take a shot at it.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I think.
Speaker 2: It's probably a lot of people who have tried to
Speaker 2: take taking this route have realized, you know, the hardest
Speaker 2: part is almost the first, the first getting your first
Speaker 2: opportunity to at it.
Speaker 1: So Yeah, it's that internship program Tom has. It is
Speaker 1: a you know, it's a great it's pretty cool to
Speaker 1: see how many of the young architects like yourself have
Speaker 1: come out of it. And you know it's you know,
Speaker 1: getting that hands on experience so early is critical to
Speaker 1: I imagine your development as an architect. So you mentioned
Speaker 1: playing golf four hundred and seventy eight days in a row.
Speaker 2: Yep, right, when.
Speaker 1: When did this happen? And I mean.
Speaker 3: It was it was when I was aged thirteen, fourteen.
Speaker 2: I believe, yeah, some we're right there. My mom got
Speaker 2: me this, you know, this membership of this little public
Speaker 2: golf course, and uh and I just went and I
Speaker 2: just played every single day. And not all of them
Speaker 2: were like nine or eighteen holes, but uh I got
Speaker 2: it at least. You know, it's Oregon winter weather western Oregon.
Speaker 2: It rains a lot, but it doesn't snow very much.
Speaker 2: So uh so I just started playing and playing. And
Speaker 2: I think part of it is some of some point
Speaker 2: in there, I was like, oh, I gotta keep the
Speaker 2: streak a lot. I got play three or six holes today,
Speaker 2: but uh yeah, I finally got We finally had a
Speaker 2: snowstorm February ninety five that busted up the streak.
Speaker 1: So so that's when it ended with a snowstorm.
Speaker 2: Yep, finally, finally just couldn't go out there and do it.
Speaker 2: I probably could have snuck in one more day, but
Speaker 2: it started to spit with snow out there. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I think I'm done. It was a good run.
Speaker 1: So what I feel like like the first day without
Speaker 1: golf or you just not knowing what to do.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to.
Speaker 2: Think, you know, I think, uh, well, when you grow
Speaker 2: up in western Oregon, you know, it's kind of a
Speaker 2: novelly when it snows because it doesn't really do it
Speaker 2: very much because of the sort of moderated oceanic climate climate.
Speaker 2: So I was probably looking forward to being a fourteen
Speaker 2: year old kid is getting out and uh uh, you know,
Speaker 2: going out and doing some cookies with my friends in
Speaker 2: the car. So my mom probably wouldn't have wanted us
Speaker 2: to do but choking aside and yeah, you know, uh uh,
Speaker 2: it was tough for my streak. Then I was hoping
Speaker 2: there was gonna make it five hundred.
Speaker 1: So that's I mean, that's crazy. I wonder what the like,
Speaker 1: the longest streak anybody's ever had? It. It's got to
Speaker 1: be close.
Speaker 2: Uh, there's got to be somebody out there that's cracked
Speaker 2: a thousand.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's amazing to me some of the folks at clubs
Speaker 2: that that I work at, you know, how how dedicated
Speaker 2: they are out there every day.
Speaker 3: Rain or shine doesn't make any difference.
Speaker 2: Who knows.
Speaker 3: It's a good question though.
Speaker 1: Yeah has said. I grew up working at a club
Speaker 1: and one guy, an older I show up at the
Speaker 1: same exact time every single day. It was like at
Speaker 1: n have his bag on a cart, like ready for
Speaker 1: him to go to the range.
Speaker 2: Those those are the people that you really love to
Speaker 2: do this work for, you know, the people that really
Speaker 2: get out there and appreciate it. You know, the greatest
Speaker 2: golf courses in the world. You know. I've always made
Speaker 2: the analogy that it reminds me of how one of
Speaker 2: my professors in school to describe great writing. You know
Speaker 2: that in great writing, there's not a word, a phrase,
Speaker 2: or or or any detail of the writing that isn't
Speaker 2: absolutely perfect. That that isn't just perfect in literal terms,
Speaker 2: but it kind of takes it all tough. It's a
Speaker 2: higher level. And that's the way that look at great
Speaker 2: architecture when you think of you know, Royal Dornock or
Speaker 2: Pinerist number two, the old course, every little homp and
Speaker 2: every little bump out there, you know, a rise that
Speaker 2: making it all nearly perfect. You know, you're always learning
Speaker 2: something about the golf course so to speak, you know,
Speaker 2: and all the interesting so you can you can find
Speaker 2: out there. And you know, as designers, I always kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, take a step back and one it's like,
Speaker 2: how much do people really really notice the the intricacies
Speaker 2: that we try and put into architecture like that? You know,
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the strengths of that. I
Speaker 2: marvel that, you know, what Pacific Dunes was, the the quality,
Speaker 2: the details and trying to get it to you know,
Speaker 2: that level, the fun shots around.
Speaker 3: The greens, et cetera.
Speaker 2: You always wonder how much people really uh catch on
Speaker 2: to that sort of stuff. And but you know that
Speaker 2: the people that play every single day like that, and
Speaker 2: really even if they're interested in architecture or not, they'll
Speaker 2: slowly figure out all those cool little things that we
Speaker 2: that we throw into the the equation. So I especially
Speaker 2: really enjoy doing the design work for for those kinds
Speaker 2: of people, you know, My favorite events here at mid
Speaker 2: Pins Pine Needles are they have the US kids in
Speaker 2: the summertime, and you know, uh, the golf courses are
Speaker 2: basically invaded by you know, ten to fifteen year old
Speaker 2: kids for an entire week, and I always really enjoy
Speaker 2: it because I hope that the kids are as excited
Speaker 2: about what they see out on the golf course Ross's
Speaker 2: great old designs and the work that we have put
Speaker 2: into restoring them, that they are really impacted the same
Speaker 2: way that I was when I was a kid, you know,
Speaker 2: in high school or before that, like the period that
Speaker 2: we were talking about. When I go to cool places,
Speaker 2: you know USGA caliber courses like Portland Golf Club, and
Speaker 2: you know, I really hope the kids enjoy it the
Speaker 2: way that I did go into those. But even just
Speaker 2: the people you know day to day that come and
Speaker 2: play golf at Midpines Pine Needles. You know, a guy
Speaker 2: by the name of a Jay Michols will become one
Speaker 2: of my best friends to play golf with, you know,
Speaker 2: an older gentleman, maybe sixty five or seventy or so.
Speaker 3: And Jay plays every single day.
Speaker 2: He played all the way almost every day through the
Speaker 2: Midpines Restoration so he was always watching what we were doing,
Speaker 2: and uh, I got to know him kind of through that.
Speaker 2: A lot of guys like that, whether it's you know,
Speaker 2: Chris Bowie, the great writer of Ross's work, or Ran
Speaker 2: Morrison who lives here in town. You know, those guys
Speaker 2: are always coming out and playing and it's really fun
Speaker 2: to uh to hear their feedback on the work that
Speaker 2: we do and uh and for them to enjoy it,
Speaker 2: you know. Uh, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: So mid Times was you know, you kind of your
Speaker 1: first shot, you know what was the I guess not
Speaker 1: the first shot, but you know, first like major restoration,
Speaker 1: and from all signs, I haven't been down there. Everybody
Speaker 1: raise about it and the first time has ever been
Speaker 1: in a top one hundred list. After the restoration, tell
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the that project and
Speaker 1: you know kind of where where the course was and
Speaker 1: where you've taken it to and you know it, you
Speaker 1: know the things you learned during the project.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, well, uh, how I got kind of started
Speaker 2: with it was well obviously worked on the restoration of
Speaker 2: of Piner's Number two, as we discussed briefly before for
Speaker 2: Core and Crunch Shop. So I was really really uh,
Speaker 2: really need a good place to take on a project
Speaker 2: like it. You know, I did a lot of research
Speaker 2: in the in the tough garf guys while we're working
Speaker 2: on Number two, and I was always noticing Midpines. Uh
Speaker 2: and uh you know John Jeffery is, Kevin Robbinson Bob Firm,
Speaker 2: you know the Pinehurst Uh uh Main, it's main. It's
Speaker 2: guys that suggested I go see Midpines.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Since the greens had really never been changed very much,
Speaker 2: only a couple of greens that really kind of been
Speaker 2: tinkered with it all. So it was a great opportunity
Speaker 2: to go see Ross's original uh original work. Uh here Uh,
Speaker 2: since you know Piner's number two greens that I was
Speaker 2: been switched to U S g A greens at some point,
Speaker 2: so they've been reshaped, but they're still very close to
Speaker 2: the uh the originals, but midpoints you can go see
Speaker 2: what we call the final float, the final raking, and
Speaker 2: perfect detail of what Ross's style was exactly exactly like.
Speaker 2: So I would come over and look at the golf
Speaker 2: course during the Number two work and got to know
Speaker 2: Kelly Miller and the Miller Belle McAllan family and kind
Speaker 2: of got started just kind of talking about the golf course.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd found many photos of of Pineher's number
Speaker 2: two in the tough garf guys from the nineteen twenties
Speaker 2: and thirties, you know, the period when the golf course
Speaker 2: had been completed by Ross, and it was really just
Speaker 2: very impressive to what I saw in modern terms and
Speaker 2: especially back then. So I started speaking with Kelly about
Speaker 2: the opportunity to try and restore it. They wanted to
Speaker 2: do a a greens re grassing project and switch them
Speaker 2: from from bent grass back over to riudeo grass as
Speaker 2: they originally were, and you know, I just kind of started,
Speaker 2: you know, throwing ideas at him of what they could
Speaker 2: what they could do. I did some several photoshops of
Speaker 2: what I of what the holes originally looked like, you know,
Speaker 2: react adding the uh the sand hills sandhills details, you know,
Speaker 2: the the natural bunkers and uh uh sandy hard pain
Speaker 2: areas around the holes, which were such a unique feature
Speaker 2: that we obviously reacted with number two. And I think
Speaker 2: they were pretty intrigued to to try that as as
Speaker 2: much as as possible and will be practical for the
Speaker 2: for the course. You know, as I always say, it's
Speaker 2: it's kind of like Pine Valley, but playable for the
Speaker 2: for the normal person. Uh, since it's not not as
Speaker 2: uh you know, Penal. You know, the the ground is
Speaker 2: so much firmer here in the sandy areas. So you know,
Speaker 2: we just kind of started talking about it and and
Speaker 2: uh they really liked the photoshops and my ideas for
Speaker 2: for what uh the holes looked like or I thought
Speaker 2: they looked like, and uh started throwing together plans for
Speaker 2: it in that autumn of it was twenty twelve, and
Speaker 2: uh just kind of went from there with it. We
Speaker 2: uh we broke around just after Thanksgiving that year. And
Speaker 2: I think the thing that was most intriguing to me
Speaker 2: about the golf courses is, while it's the same general
Speaker 2: style is Pineer's number two U and Ross's work here.
Speaker 2: He tried to make all of the golf courses that
Speaker 2: he worked on here a little bit different stylistically. While
Speaker 2: the Bunkers were all natural and rugged and had the
Speaker 2: sandy hard pain areas, uh, you know, the overall style
Speaker 2: of each golf course is a little bit different from
Speaker 2: the other one. So I really really worked hard to
Speaker 2: draft off of that of his original concepts and get
Speaker 2: them to work for for modern play. So a lot
Speaker 2: of fun. You know, a lot of our of restoration
Speaker 2: architectures is one part design and the other part is
Speaker 2: kind of archaeology and trying to figure out what was
Speaker 2: actually in the original designers heads. And uh, it's been
Speaker 2: a lot of fun to do that on all the
Speaker 2: golf courses I've worked on here.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, I really want to get down to that
Speaker 1: tough sarchive. It's see. That's one of the cool things
Speaker 1: about Ross is how much of his work is preserved
Speaker 1: and and you know, kept in a singular place. I
Speaker 1: wish that was the case.
Speaker 4: With more architects in terms of you know, having worked
Speaker 4: with a lot of Ross courses, what what would you
Speaker 4: say is kind of the most underappreciated aspect of Ross's
Speaker 4: design career.
Speaker 2: Boy, that's a that's a difficult question, I think for
Speaker 2: the fact that you know, his design style varied so
Speaker 2: much during the course of his career. You know, his
Speaker 2: New England work is completely different to his work in
Speaker 2: the in the UH, in the Sandhills and and in
Speaker 2: other portions of the country. You know, I would say
Speaker 2: that for me as a as a thirty thousand square
Speaker 2: or a thirty thousand foot answer to the question.
Speaker 3: I think the thing.
Speaker 2: That that probably is is underappreciated is I think a
Speaker 2: lot of times when you kind of watch a major
Speaker 2: championship that's played on a ross course or what have you,
Speaker 2: everybody will hit him like kind of the obvious details.
Speaker 2: You know, if they if they played Oakland Hills, they're
Speaker 2: going to talk a lot about how severe the greens are.
Speaker 2: If they play Pinder's Number two, they're going to talk
Speaker 2: about how great their recovery shots are around the greens.
Speaker 2: What I always marvel at in Ross's work is his
Speaker 2: ability to have come up with the exact right concepts
Speaker 2: for each hole on the ground that he's given. You know,
Speaker 2: obviously a great router of holes, always finding interesting ways
Speaker 2: to attack the landscape and find good green sites, find
Speaker 2: the right place to put the holes where it's a
Speaker 2: comfortable walk, and all the holes are interesting and varied.
Speaker 2: But the thing that I really like the most about
Speaker 2: especially his work here, is that he again he was
Speaker 2: just always finding the right answer for the design of.
Speaker 3: A hole given the the given the.
Speaker 2: Ground in front of him. You know, a great example
Speaker 2: is like the seventeenth and twelve holes at midpinds, which
Speaker 2: are two holes that are within one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: year thirty yards of each other. But they attacked the
Speaker 2: landscape in two really interesting ways. The twelfth hole is
Speaker 2: a mid to shorter sort of par four with a
Speaker 2: fairway that sort of slopes sharply from the right down
Speaker 2: to the left hand side. The green is cannied on
Speaker 2: a forty five degree angle, is such that you really
Speaker 2: need to hit your T shot on the left hand
Speaker 2: side of the fairway. There's a big front right bunker
Speaker 2: that really makes approaching the green from the right hand
Speaker 2: side of the fairway a nightmare. It's almost impossible to
Speaker 2: hold into some conditions. So what Ross did is he
Speaker 2: set up a T shot where you could hit a nice,
Speaker 2: big sort of swing draw that would sort of hit
Speaker 2: in the landing air and kind of bound down to
Speaker 2: the honey spot and the far left hand side of
Speaker 2: the fairway, the side of the fairway that you need
Speaker 2: to be coming in from. Only you know, because of
Speaker 2: the orientation of the green, you wind up having hit
Speaker 2: this nice little draw down in the landing area. Then
Speaker 2: you really need to hit like a straight shot or
Speaker 2: even like a little baby fade off of this hanging
Speaker 2: lot where it becomes a very awkward shot. So the
Speaker 2: bottom line is the player that has all the different
Speaker 2: kinds of shots really has the advantage in the hole.
Speaker 2: The seventeenth hole is almost the dead opposite, but again
Speaker 2: utilizing the same kind of concept where the land is
Speaker 2: gently going down into the right in the landing area
Speaker 2: and the T shot, So you know, a player that
Speaker 2: can hit a fade on the T shot really has
Speaker 2: kind of an advantage. And then you know the second shot,
Speaker 2: all there's a just a big, old, big old hillside
Speaker 2: where the bunkering front left of the green that you know,
Speaker 2: really really encourages you trying to hit a draw into
Speaker 2: the green site again opposite, you know, off of a
Speaker 2: off of a kind of a hanging lie where the
Speaker 2: ball is gonna be a little bit below your feet
Speaker 2: and the tendency always is going to be to miss
Speaker 2: it from the right far be a you know, let
Speaker 2: alone trying hit draw off of So you know, he
Speaker 2: was just always coming up with, I think, the right
Speaker 2: answer for a piece of ground. You know, he's a
Speaker 2: great router, and he had just a real really a
Speaker 2: real knack for finding the right concept for the hole.
Speaker 2: And you get eighteen different looks all the way through.
Speaker 2: You know, you're always he's just really creative of finding
Speaker 2: the right answer and then eighteen in a row of
Speaker 2: in the right answer all to arrive at a golf
Speaker 2: course that is really varied and cool all the way
Speaker 2: through all of his best work. I think that kind
Speaker 2: of homework in the designs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing that impresses me most with Ross
Speaker 1: is the variety and his designs. But also you know,
Speaker 1: just how he created these subtle little features that you know,
Speaker 1: really good players notice. But for the for the average player,
Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to navigate, and you know, they aren't
Speaker 1: worried about a hanging lie and having to try and
Speaker 1: hit a you know, a fade into you know from
Speaker 1: a draw lire. They feel like they have a chance
Speaker 1: when they're in the fairway. So I think, you know,
Speaker 1: that's that is one of the things I think that's
Speaker 1: underappreciated with.
Speaker 2: Ross absolutely, you know, and you hit the nail on
Speaker 2: the head. All the all the things that I described
Speaker 2: are like grade A architecture stuff, you know, the stuff
Speaker 2: that is really good thinking man's kind of architecture. But
Speaker 2: the holes always worked really really well for for every
Speaker 2: skill set of player, you know, whether it was a
Speaker 2: player of his caliber. You know, he was at one
Speaker 2: point one of the best players, you know, in the country.
Speaker 2: You know, he finished in the top ten in the
Speaker 2: US Open. Yeah, but the whole always worked very very
Speaker 2: well for for the average player. And that's why, you know,
Speaker 2: I really think that that he had is one of
Speaker 2: the best impacts of anyone in the history of American golf.
Speaker 2: You know, if you think about his his his his
Speaker 2: work throughout his life. You know, having done that many
Speaker 2: hundreds of golf courses, you know, he made it possible
Speaker 2: to take really good sound architecture to the masses. Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, any little town that just wanted a cool little.
Speaker 3: Club, they were going to have it.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, I think that, Uh, I've always
Speaker 2: actually admired that about Ross. I think sometimes people have
Speaker 2: have made the criticism of Ross that that he was
Speaker 2: took on so many projects, and he took on so
Speaker 2: much work that it didn't have his hand in in
Speaker 2: all of the designs. You know, it would have been
Speaker 2: impossible to travel around to do that on that day
Speaker 2: and age of train travel. But I actually think that
Speaker 2: that's something that I admire. The most in him is
Speaker 2: that he had he didn't seem to have really an
Speaker 2: enormous ego, you know, as a man from humble beginnings
Speaker 2: in Scotland and uh immigrated to the United States and
Speaker 2: it and built himself to have this massive business, so
Speaker 2: many employees at one point, uh you know this, at
Speaker 2: one point, I believe I've heard that he had like
Speaker 2: three thousand employees an extension just to if he counted
Speaker 2: all the laborers on all the projects.
Speaker 3: And everything that was going on.
Speaker 2: But you know, he he he wasn't afraid of if
Speaker 2: a golf course didn't turn out, you know, as good
Speaker 2: as as Uh as Pineer's number two. You know, when
Speaker 2: he was at his best, and he was and he
Speaker 2: was on the ground, he was capable of designing as
Speaker 2: good as anyone who.
Speaker 3: Has ever lived.
Speaker 2: But he wasn't really you know, he didn't really have
Speaker 2: an enormous ego. You know, he he wanted to do
Speaker 2: good golf courses that people could enjoy everywhere. And that's
Speaker 2: why I think that really he did have one of
Speaker 2: the largest great impacts in the history of the game
Speaker 2: in American golf. If you think about, you know, the
Speaker 2: most influential people in American golf. You know obviously Bobby
Speaker 2: Jones and Nicholas and Palmer, and you know the impact
Speaker 2: that Tiger Woods has had in the modern age. You
Speaker 2: think about who's really next in line behind that, I
Speaker 2: think it's pretty obvious.
Speaker 3: It's always been pretty obviously.
Speaker 2: He is Donald Ross. For all the golf courses he did.
Speaker 3: In so many different states, so many different places.
Speaker 2: Again, he really brought uh good the great architecture to
Speaker 2: the masses in the United States.
Speaker 1: And I think it's like the.
Speaker 2: Absolutely he brought the whole package to the equation. You know,
Speaker 2: his background of uh, of having worked on maintenance and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, understudied for for Old Tom and Saint Andrews
Speaker 2: and Carnosti and uh and then obviously growing up in
Speaker 2: in Dornick. You know, he was the full package, that's
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: So uh in terms of ross courses, what would you
Speaker 1: say is the most underrated, underappreciated golf course in his portfolio?
Speaker 2: Oh boy, you've.
Speaker 3: Seen yeah, hmm, well, I would really really have to think.
Speaker 2: About that one. I feel like I would probably I
Speaker 2: probably would be cutting somebody off at the knees who
Speaker 2: deserves a bit more, uh, a more credit Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's so many good ones, you know, I mean, uh, uh,
Speaker 2: there's a couple that come to mind are his Midpines.
Speaker 2: I think it's a great golf course that really flew
Speaker 2: into the raider for a lot of time. I really
Speaker 2: like Plymouth in uh in Massachusetts. Uh, it's a really
Speaker 2: cool course that kind of flies under the radar. But again,
Speaker 2: I feel kind of bad just sort of throwing those
Speaker 2: two out there because there's so many of them that,
Speaker 2: uh that inevitably it's uh, it's sort of like being asked,
Speaker 2: what's your favorite child. You can't you can't really do that,
Speaker 2: you know. Uh, I'm sure that I'm sure there's several
Speaker 2: great ross courses that I still myself have never been to.
Speaker 1: There's quite a few of them.
Speaker 2: So it's a it's that really kind of gets back
Speaker 2: to the previous point, is is you know he left
Speaker 2: such a deep, deep talent pool of great golf courses that, uh,
Speaker 2: some of them are are are still great, some of
Speaker 2: them could use a nice little restoration like we did
Speaker 2: with mid Pines and Pine Needles, and uh, there's just
Speaker 2: such a deep talent pool, really very very impressive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you you know if you I always look
Speaker 1: for ross courses when I travel, if I if I
Speaker 1: don't know where to play, it's always like a good
Speaker 1: you know, really on the East Coast or you know,
Speaker 1: he did a lot of the Midwest, but like if
Speaker 1: you're looking for a place to play, you know, to
Speaker 1: see if there's any public uh access ross courses and
Speaker 1: there you know, a lot of them aren't in perfect shape,
Speaker 1: but you know they they're they still have such good
Speaker 1: like simple architecture, and it's easy to play, and they're
Speaker 1: usually very affordable. So you know, that's always I think,
Speaker 1: I think a good way to.
Speaker 2: To travel, absolutely, you know. I think the one that
Speaker 2: probably jumps to mind that it amazed. It always amazes
Speaker 2: me that it stays as far under the radar as
Speaker 2: it does, and it seems to have taken a nice
Speaker 2: little jump in the rankings the last few years is
Speaker 2: Essex in Massachusetts, you know, in Manchester by the sea
Speaker 2: up north of the city. That golf course blows my mind.
Speaker 2: It's just such a cool ross course, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it always kind of amazing, amzs me like I was
Speaker 2: just one of a lot, not a lot more famous.
Speaker 2: One that I also really like is a place that
Speaker 2: I went briefly did some work for for Gil hants
Speaker 2: At a couple years ago as Sicona in Rhode Island.
Speaker 2: Short golf course.
Speaker 3: I think it's only maybe sixty two.
Speaker 2: Hundred yards long, so basically pretty well preserved, probably about
Speaker 2: what it was when it opened, and some fantastic views
Speaker 2: out over the waterfront right along the shore there, and
Speaker 2: some really really neat greens. I don't want to start
Speaker 2: quoting holes and because I forget get right, get a
Speaker 2: number wrong, but there's some really really neat holes out
Speaker 2: there and some great over water views. Is a really
Speaker 2: neat golf course. That's where Ross made his his summer office.
Speaker 2: Actually he's spent obviously winters down here in the Pinehurstteria
Speaker 2: and and then spent his a lot of his summers
Speaker 2: up along the shore and Rhode Island.
Speaker 3: Really good scores.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty good spot to spend summers at as that.
Speaker 1: I've heard that my buddy has sent me a bunch
Speaker 1: of photos from there, and it looks so cool and
Speaker 1: it's got a lot of little quirk. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's a shorter course, but it defends park because of
Speaker 1: those greens and just the subtle little design features, right, So,
Speaker 1: you know, having worked for I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: if if you said Gil, Tom Joke and then Bill
Speaker 1: and Ben, you know, the you know three most three
Speaker 1: of the most forefront architects of today. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about, you know, some commonalities that they share
Speaker 1: that make them so great.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the I think the thing that obviously
Speaker 2: they all share is an appreciation for for classic architecture
Speaker 2: and do it yourself mentality, you know, uh, the design
Speaker 2: build uh philosophy. I mean, obviously all of them have
Speaker 2: a encyclopedic knowledge of great architecture and how they would
Speaker 2: like to approach it, you know, from from routing on
Speaker 2: up and and and building really cool natural stuff or
Speaker 2: classical classical material. You know. I mean anytime that that
Speaker 2: any of them are dving away from anything that's completely
Speaker 2: under and natural, it's always going in an interesting, old,
Speaker 2: kind of quirky way, you know. I think a Gills
Speaker 2: one of gills strengths is his willingness and uh interest
Speaker 2: in building sort of like uh, you know, classic New
Speaker 2: England architecture or classic English countryside architecture with a little
Speaker 2: more kind of quirky sort of uh, you know, stuff
Speaker 2: in there. But I think it all comes back to
Speaker 2: to the general philosophics of of they're gonna get out
Speaker 2: there and they're gonna build great architecture in the field
Speaker 2: with their own shapers, their own finished guys, and the
Speaker 2: hands on h approach to the work, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: And they all go about that a little bit differently.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: In the case of Gil, I can pretty much guarant
Speaker 2: see wherever Gill's at right now. It's on a bulldozer
Speaker 2: or someplace, you know, I mean, that's where that's his
Speaker 2: happy place.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: I think he really uh, you know, he's he's a great,
Speaker 2: a great architect, a great uh, a great marketing art architect.
Speaker 2: You know, he's so great in front of the camera.
Speaker 2: But I think, and he's so good with all the
Speaker 2: client and relations and all the emails and all the
Speaker 2: business of being an architect. He always amazes me how
Speaker 2: hard he works. I mean, he's a person that generally
Speaker 2: spends ten ten hours a day on a on a bulldozer,
Speaker 2: and then he goes and he does emails and plans
Speaker 2: all night long. You know. It's very impressive. But that's
Speaker 2: why I think it's kind of his happy places to
Speaker 2: get out there in the field and build stuff himself,
Speaker 2: whereas his Doak was also a shaper back in his
Speaker 2: younger years working for PETI. But he goes about the
Speaker 2: work in the field in a slightly different manner where
Speaker 2: you know, he likes to sort of like walk around
Speaker 2: and hover over the proceedings and work on multiple things
Speaker 2: at once, where we can jump over to the guys
Speaker 2: working in this set of bunkers over here building his
Speaker 2: greens over here. And he has a you know, a
Speaker 2: very deep talent pool of shaping design associates that are
Speaker 2: that are perfect for that. You know, they could probably
Speaker 2: all be designers on their own, uh, but they they
Speaker 2: are incredibly good shapers and uh. And he utilizes that
Speaker 2: back and forth dynamic h very well. Bill is the
Speaker 2: same sort of way where where he spends a lot
Speaker 2: of time kind of walking a property and uh and
Speaker 2: you know, throwing it a different a bunch of different
Speaker 2: ideas around and coming up with they really what he
Speaker 2: really wants to do and what he thinks is gonna
Speaker 2: work very well. And then he's actually on a on
Speaker 2: a sand pro at the very end of the process
Speaker 2: finishing the greens himself, which is something that Gill does
Speaker 2: as well, but that is really you know, Bill's Bill's
Speaker 2: main kind of creative construction ports of the processes. You know,
Speaker 2: he he feel kind of directs that the building of
Speaker 2: the green and then uh and then actually finishes it himself.
Speaker 2: So you know, they all go about you know, the
Speaker 2: work slightly differently. Uh and uh and I think that's
Speaker 2: the you know, to kind of complete the point on Bill,
Speaker 2: he spends more time i think, walk king his projects
Speaker 2: than uh than any anyone. You know, He's He's constantly
Speaker 2: on site and it's kind of walking and throwing ideas
Speaker 2: around what.
Speaker 3: What he would like to do. Uh.
Speaker 2: So well, uh, while the results come out in the
Speaker 2: end really very similarly. Uh you know, uh, they all
Speaker 2: go about it and in slightly slightly different ways, but
Speaker 2: all of them rely on uh you know, good solid
Speaker 2: design build theoretics and having uh you know, talented staffs
Speaker 2: of of guys to uh get out and do the
Speaker 2: work and and and are as passionate about architectures as
Speaker 2: they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the design build concept just makes so
Speaker 1: much more sense to me than the contracted out it seems.
Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, all the parties are aligned
Speaker 1: and to me it it I don't know why you
Speaker 1: would draw plans and and and then hand them to
Speaker 1: somebody else to interpret your plans. Now, I know there's
Speaker 1: is not that.
Speaker 5: Simple, but it just seems like if you've got if
Speaker 5: you're doing the plans and you have you know, the
Speaker 5: guys working for you, it's gonna you know, there's one
Speaker 5: last person involved, and that's always a good thing when
Speaker 5: you're you know, trying to do something special.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it makes sense all the sense in the world
Speaker 2: across the world, and you know, get back to the
Speaker 2: beginning of the conversation. That's really what I learned right
Speaker 2: out of the gates from Tom, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I knew what good architecture is and uh and I
Speaker 2: was able to contribute, contribute immediately because I had a
Speaker 2: good eye for things. But what kind of blew my
Speaker 2: mind is is just how much he was out in
Speaker 2: the field, how much you know, Jim Orbin f Brian Swank,
Speaker 2: they were you know, Brian was shaping every single day.
Speaker 2: Jim was in and out shaping this shaping that the
Speaker 2: attend and these are you know again guys that could
Speaker 2: design on their own.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: The attention to detail was was pretty impressive to watch
Speaker 2: and to see and uh and to create a process
Speaker 2: you know, uh, just going back and forth in terms
Speaker 2: of discussions of what would happen, what was implemented.
Speaker 3: And that was the beauty of.
Speaker 2: Tom, you know, is that uh you know, uh he
Speaker 2: didn't care what the best idea was or who it
Speaker 2: came from. Uh. You know, that's what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: That's why I was quite happy to ask uh you know,
Speaker 2: uh even down to a nineteen year old kid that
Speaker 2: was just a golf golf course and golf uh golf
Speaker 2: nerd what what I thought, you know, Uh, and that
Speaker 2: interaction uh that that doesn't happen if if you're just
Speaker 2: merely hating a set of plans uh to a contractor.
Speaker 2: You you take a bunch of really really talented people
Speaker 2: that uh that know what's good and and and know
Speaker 2: what'll work, and you throw them all out there and
Speaker 2: uh just run it through the uh, run it through
Speaker 2: the process, and see who you come out come up
Speaker 2: with on the other side. I don't see how anybody
Speaker 2: could uh could expect to get results that good uh,
Speaker 2: merely from handing plans to a contractor. And and the
Speaker 2: thing is is not only uh is the design build
Speaker 2: philosophy you know better in terms of architecture. It's also
Speaker 2: a lot a lot more practical for the client. You know,
Speaker 2: the more you're eliminating outside contracted costs to where things
Speaker 2: are either they just not turning out very good or
Speaker 2: as good as they can or or they're having to
Speaker 2: be rebuilt multiple times to get it to all fun
Speaker 2: they get to a good uh, a good place in
Speaker 2: the finish line. Uh. You know, it just it just
Speaker 2: expands the price tag, you know, uh, by eliminating the
Speaker 2: middleman and uh, just getting out there and doing it yourself.
Speaker 2: And and I think that's you'd have to ask Tom himself,
Speaker 2: but I think that that's something that he he realized
Speaker 2: that degree of craftsmanship working for Pete, and I think
Speaker 2: that Bill also did. And they had their own ideas
Speaker 2: about what they wanted to do that were slightly different
Speaker 2: from Pete, but they recognized the value of approaching the
Speaker 2: work like that and uh and and they just kind
Speaker 2: of fallowed suit and uh and even took it to
Speaker 2: another level of h of hands on, hands on construction.
Speaker 2: And that's been by virtue. It's been handed on to
Speaker 2: two guys like myself who have worked for them. You know, Uh,
Speaker 2: I do my own shaping just like Gilbuzz because I
Speaker 2: think it's the most practical way to go about it.
Speaker 2: You know, if if I have a lot of different
Speaker 2: projects going on at once, I might uh, I might
Speaker 2: you know, to spend time jumping around uh uh you know,
Speaker 2: feel directing a little bit how I described uh uh
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben and Tom working as opposed to being
Speaker 2: on the machine like gill is. But you know, again
Speaker 2: it's the same same difference. You know. I've I've learned
Speaker 2: how to be efficient and uh and practical and save clients'
Speaker 2: money while getting the right product. And I've even kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of tried to take what I've learned
Speaker 2: from the strengths of of all their personalities and uh
Speaker 2: and utilize it to hopefully wind up with good, good
Speaker 2: results myself. Uh So I've definitely learned a lot from
Speaker 2: watching watching how they conduct themselves and and the differences
Speaker 2: in their little styles that that that they utilized achieve
Speaker 2: good results. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that collaborative approach something I learned, you know,
Speaker 1: grown up Caddy and was like, you know, somebody a
Speaker 1: caddy for it. They'd be an eighteen handicap and they'd
Speaker 1: say something about the game of golf, and it would
Speaker 1: it would like make a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 1: And at the time I was like a you know,
Speaker 1: scratch or better player, and like that's the thing about
Speaker 1: you know, just life in general. You can learn something
Speaker 1: from everybody. So having the collaborative approach on site, I
Speaker 1: mean it's not going to hurt you, you know, it's
Speaker 1: absolutely So you're currently consulting on you know, a bunch
Speaker 1: of Golden Age courses. You're a you're a golf nerd
Speaker 1: as you as you say, just like me and uh
Speaker 1: and you you know, you've you've got kind of a
Speaker 1: vast array of architects. Like in terms of Golden Age architects,
Speaker 1: who do you think flies under the radar?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: You know, whether they're a regional guy or that there
Speaker 1: are great architects that you know, you don't hear as
Speaker 1: much about as like a ross a telling Cast or
Speaker 1: a Rainer McDonald.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. You know one person that I
Speaker 2: that I really don't think has ever really gotten their
Speaker 2: full credit and due with the with the quality of
Speaker 2: the work and all the places they have that they
Speaker 2: worked at, which was hs cult. You know, I think
Speaker 2: that obviously he's a household name in architectural circles. But
Speaker 2: I think that most people sitting watching a Master's telecast
Speaker 2: every year there, they know, they know all about Alistair
Speaker 2: McKenzie by now, and and most everybody you know knows
Speaker 2: quite a bit about Donald Ross just for the iconic
Speaker 2: effect that he's had and golf and architecture and famous
Speaker 2: places like Piner's Number two. But but Colt, you know,
Speaker 2: all the different places that he worked at is really
Speaker 2: impressive list.
Speaker 3: You know, places where.
Speaker 2: Nobody really these days puts puts together a solid lineage
Speaker 2: and understanding of of the the history of of great
Speaker 2: courses like Mirfield for example. You know, uh, just how
Speaker 2: much of that was his design work colts work there.
Speaker 3: You know, I think, uh, I think, uh.
Speaker 2: The more one digs into his his career in history, uh,
Speaker 2: the more one realizes is a pretty pretty smart guy
Speaker 2: with a lot of a lot of really cool work
Speaker 2: all over the place, whether it was you know, just
Speaker 2: his input of Pine Valley and uh.
Speaker 3: But the same could be also be said of.
Speaker 2: U of you know, George Thomas, you know, I mean, uh,
Speaker 2: being as maybe they really didn't do that many golf courses.
Speaker 2: Uh I think that he doesn't really get as much
Speaker 2: credit as he should, even though the you know, the
Speaker 2: work that he did at its best was some of
Speaker 2: the best architecture in the history of the game. You know.
Speaker 2: Uh I think La country.
Speaker 3: Club is is is a is a prime example.
Speaker 2: You know a lot of people don't realize that that
Speaker 2: his original concept for the golf course was to it
Speaker 2: was essentially a course within a course concept, so to speak,
Speaker 2: where the golf course could be set up one day
Speaker 2: to plays like a you know, a really really difficult,
Speaker 2: you know, par seventy two almost seven thousand yard golf course,
Speaker 2: and then the next day it could be set up
Speaker 2: to play is like as like a quirky and crafty
Speaker 2: little uh you know Par sixty nine or par seventy
Speaker 2: sixty one hundred yard golf course, and the architecture all
Speaker 2: worked at varying degrees in between, you know, uh, so
Speaker 2: that you were getting completely different golf courses you could
Speaker 2: play the same day just by moving around the whole locations.
Speaker 2: That's what kind of made it all work, is you know,
Speaker 2: they'd set the short course and set a bunch of
Speaker 2: really wild, tough pins and then uh vice versa for
Speaker 2: for the for the longer course. But all all, all
Speaker 2: the architecture still worked, and the players had to really
Speaker 2: think about what they were doing at that where they
Speaker 2: were trying to hit t shots to get good angles
Speaker 2: into greens and where we're not to miss greens. All
Speaker 2: the all the bells and whistles of g architecture, you know,
Speaker 2: so as but you know, generally a really a well
Speaker 2: known famous architect, you know, if you're gonna go into
Speaker 2: more obscure architects, you know, one of the one of
Speaker 2: the guys that we have talked about a bit, you
Speaker 2: know before before the podcast. You know, uh uh Avy McCann,
Speaker 2: who did a lot of work in the Northwest where
Speaker 2: I grew up as an American. An American architect, really
Speaker 2: did some great quality work that I don't think people
Speaker 2: really realize how good it was. And a lot of
Speaker 2: is the fact that you know, maybe time hasn't really
Speaker 2: been as as friendly to their work is uh as
Speaker 2: it should have been. You know, a lot of his
Speaker 2: course has been changed, or or too many trees planet
Speaker 2: or just the usual things that happen over the span
Speaker 2: of of one hundred years. You know, greens get changed,
Speaker 2: various things, all the things that happened, and then you know,
Speaker 2: in the in the UK, I always really, I always
Speaker 2: really liked James Braid's work. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of great bray golf course and there's also some neat
Speaker 2: ones that kind of fly under the radar, and I
Speaker 2: always I always found a lot of those to be
Speaker 2: some of the more entertaining golf courses that I went
Speaker 2: to in the UK, And a lot of them would
Speaker 2: uh be just kind of uh right under the notses
Speaker 2: a lot of the time of of of bigger, famous
Speaker 2: famous places. You know, a couple of examples be uh
Speaker 2: there's a place that's really just up the railway line
Speaker 2: from Carnosti called Pammir, which is of course that's kind
Speaker 2: of easily missed over there. The first couple holes in
Speaker 2: the last coup holes play across very very flatish kind
Speaker 2: of farm land. But in the middle of the golf
Speaker 2: course it all goes out of this very rumpled and
Speaker 2: wild little dunescape out there with some really really sharp
Speaker 2: crazy dunes and uh and and the holes are really
Speaker 2: rout and in a lot of interesting ways to uh
Speaker 2: to to arrive at some pretty unique holes. There's a
Speaker 2: couple holes on that golf course that I would I
Speaker 2: would put on my top, likeably fifty holes in Scotland.
Speaker 2: Just some really really neat stuff out there, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of places Fraser for a golf club in
Speaker 2: northern Scotland. It's kind of like that where flies a
Speaker 2: little bit under the radar, but there was a hole
Speaker 2: out there that I uh, you know, I was inspired
Speaker 2: for an idea that we ended up using the Olympic course,
Speaker 2: the Ninth Pole, where it was kind of inspired from
Speaker 2: a hole there where there was these two big mounds
Speaker 2: in front of greens where if the pin were kind
Speaker 2: of front right on the green, behind the front right mound,
Speaker 2: you could actually sort of carren a shot off of
Speaker 2: the front left mound and curl it around the mound
Speaker 2: front right of the green, and then if the pin
Speaker 2: was on the west side you could do vice versa.
Speaker 2: You could if it was behind that mound, you could
Speaker 2: sort of curl a shot off of it. You know,
Speaker 2: just some really neat, little wild you know, uh, Scottish
Speaker 2: Scottish architecture. Same would go for for Borrower up in
Speaker 2: the far north of Scotland, north of a dorn like
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's a break course as well.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, isn't that the Furthest North course in Scotland?
Speaker 2: Or and one of them not the Furthest North, but
Speaker 2: it is probably the Furthest North, like really great great
Speaker 2: course of the old of the old architecture.
Speaker 3: It's about I think it's about.
Speaker 2: Twenty or thirty minutes north of Dornick. And you know,
Speaker 2: for anybody kind of knows Dornic, I mean even it
Speaker 2: kind of flew under the radar to a degree through
Speaker 2: a lot of the fifties and sixties and seventies because
Speaker 2: it was so far to get to driving up there.
Speaker 2: You know, they didn't have the big bridges that crossed
Speaker 2: the Dornick Firth or those other firsts that you have
Speaker 2: to cross to get up there, so you had to
Speaker 2: drive all the way inland, all the way back out
Speaker 2: and all the way inland and all the way back
Speaker 2: could get to those places. So, you know, Dorrit kind
Speaker 2: of flew under the radar for so long that the
Speaker 2: place is north of it, like Borra.
Speaker 3: You know, those only become you know, even.
Speaker 2: An architectural circles kind of household names. The last ten
Speaker 2: or fifteen years, either dor or Borra. That's one of
Speaker 2: the coolest golf courses that I saw over a really
Speaker 2: really neat place right along the ocean. So those are,
Speaker 2: you know, some of the more obscure stuff that I
Speaker 2: have always perfectly liked in terms of both courses and architecture.
Speaker 1: That does it for Part one of the Kyle Franz Podcasts.
Speaker 1: Part two should be posted within the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this after, just check out our website, iTunes,
Speaker 1: or Stitcher for Part two, which dives into Kyle's travels
Speaker 1: through the Great Britain Island islands, restorations abroad, as well
Speaker 1: as some listener questions and overrated underrated