WEBVTT - Fighting Imposter Syndrome: Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.800 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I'd come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:41.240 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, I hope 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.239 you're having a beautiful week. Mine is actually really good. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.199 I just got back to la I was in New 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.919 York for three weeks for some work. I moderated a 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:56.120 session at the Clinton Global Initiative, which was so we were 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.320 going to think this is corny, but so soul fulfilling. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.480 I got to speak to five people who are changing 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:09.120 the world, people who have started organizations like Miracle Messages. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.600 This guy, Kevin f Adler is totally retooling our solution 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:19.280 to homelessness. And I got to interview Nila Ibrahimi, who 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.800 stood up to the Taliban in twenty twenty one, and 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:29.440 mong Say Doola, who escaped the genocide in me and 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.440 Mar and is the first from his refugee camp to 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.040 be enrolled in higher education. It was just really inspiring 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.240 to be in a room full of people who are doers, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.440 who are being the change they want to see. And 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:47.840 then also while I was there, I filmed some pretty 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.320 smart episodes, and I filmed the Eve episode when I 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.960 was there, which was I have to tell you, that 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.040 was like one of my favorite episodes. She was so 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:02.120 real and so cool. I think, you know, sometimes celebrities 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.480 brains feel like they're broken. I know you're probably not 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.520 supposed to say that, but she's just she's like one 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.240 of us. Like, she was so normal and cool and 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.200 had so much to say. I love that episode, and 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.200 a few more are coming out. I can't say who yet, 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.840 but I filmed a few more episodes, and then I 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.959 was also filming The bright Side, which is the podcast 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:30.160 I do with Hello Sunshine. And actually while I was there, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.400 I got a call that tamer And Hall wanted to 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.160 feature The bright Side on her show. So I was 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.600 supposed to come home like last Sunday and ended up 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.520 extending to do the show, which was great. The only 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.320 thing I was sad about was I bought one ticket 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.200 to the Thames Concert and I had to miss it, 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.840 which was so sad. I actually have never bought a 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.600 ticket by myself to a concert, and so that felt 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:01.080 like a big thing for me because I was like, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.280 I really want to go see her so badly. I 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.120 don't want to try and figure out who will come 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.320 with me. I'm just going to go and enjoy the music. 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.800 But I didn't get to see her. I think she's 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.920 headed to Europe, so I don't know if I'm going 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.040 to catch her at this point, but hopefully at a 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.800 later date it'll be meant to be. And then I 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.959 came back and we jumped into Shina Way, which is 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:27.720 Hello Sunshine's annual event, and it is like, truly one 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.080 of my favorite weekends of the year. It feels like 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.400 the Olympics of womanhood. I just love being in that space. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:40.120 Hello Sunshine has this way of curating the most lovely women, 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.880 lovely human beings, and so every room you walk into 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.840 is warm, and it's just so rare. If you have 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.720 the opportunity to go next year, if it's something that 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.920 you feel called to, I would really recommend it, and 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.720 I don't say that about a lot of events. It's 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:02.320 just really special and so funny too is our interview 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.800 today is on imposter syndrome. And I recorded this honestly 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.000 like two months ago. But our session that we did 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.920 for the bright Side at Shinaway was about imposter syndrome 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.320 and it made me realize that this is a topic 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.159 that's maybe even more important to cover than I once knew. 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.880 So let's get into it, and as always a quick reminder, 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.600 I am still zooming with people. So if you write 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.080 a review on the pod, which we've had so many 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.800 beautiful new ones because of the Apple spotlight on new 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.080 and noteworthy, So if you have written a new review, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.760 or you send the episode to two friends and screenshot 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.479 it and then email me Danielle at beprettysmart dot com. 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.479 I pick one person to zoom with every single week, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.120 and I've been zooming with you all, which is such 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.520 a highlight for me. Okay, so now it's really time 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:01.839 to jump into today's episode. Maya Angelo once said I 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.640 have written eleven books, but each time I think, uh oh, 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.040 they're going to find out now I've run a game 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.320 on everybody, and they're going to find me out that 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.560 feeling it's called imposter syndrome, and we're diving deep into 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.600 it today. Like I mentioned, this episode is one we've 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:23.320 been crafting for a while, and it feels so crucial 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:28.280 because during a brainstorm with the Pretty Smart team, someone 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.200 casually suggested imposter syndrome as a theme and the reaction 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:37.680 from everybody was instant. Every single person in the room, successful, confident, 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:44.040 regardless of their age, felt it deeply. It made me 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.520 realize that imposter syndrome is everywhere. It's that feeling of 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.520 not being good enough. Some people describe it as that 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.840 feeling of they're going to find you out. It actually 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.000 shows up for me differently. For me, it kind of 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.160 shows up as that feeling of planning a party and 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.479 wondering if anyone would show up, just feeling out of 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.760 place in the room, thinking how did I get in here? 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:12.000 And what's more is minority groups, whether racial, ethnic, gender based, religious, 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:16.200 or sexual orientation, often feel it at higher rates. An 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.000 expert once described the feeling is having like a toxic 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.520 best friend in your head saying you don't deserve this 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.080 or you just got lucky. What I found out recording 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.480 this episode that shocked me was seventy to eighty percent 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.960 of people experience it at some point in their lives. 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.240 Emma Watson, Tina Fey, Michelle Obama have all spoken publicly 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.520 about the feeling of imposter syndrome and talked about asking 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:45.400 themselves that question, Am I good enough? So for this, 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:47.839 I didn't just want to talk about the concept or 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.960 hear stories from people. I wanted the facts. Where is 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.080 this coming from? And how do we solve it? So 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.479 I went back and I read about the history or 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.760 the concept of imposter syndrome. Doctor Valeriejung is the co 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.400 founder of the Impostor Syndrome Institute, which breaks it down 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.600 into five main types. First is the perfectionist, who thinks 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.440 anything less than perfect is failure. I think that's me. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.520 Second is the superhero, the person who feels like if 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.040 they aren't working harder than everyone, they're falling short. Third 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.160 is the expert who thinks they can't be considered credible 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:29.080 until they know everything about everything. For the natural genius, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.120 the person who believes that if something doesn't come easy, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.880 they must be a fraud. And five the soloist, someone 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.600 who feels asking for help means they're not capable. So, 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.040 because this is a concept, sometimes it can be hard 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:44.800 to distill down. So I'm going to give you a 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.040 few scenarios to see if any of this resonates. There's 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.600 something called the invitation regret. Imagine being invited to a 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.840 high level meeting or an event, and you walk in 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:56.760 and you look around at all the accomplished people in 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.280 the room, and suddenly, instead of feeling proud of your accomplishment, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.120 you start wondering, did they invite me by mistake? Any 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.520 second now they'll realize I don't deserve to be here. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.960 Then there's the performance anxiety. After receiving praise at work, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.920 instead of feeling satisfaction, there's this nagging thought in the 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.760 back of your mind, h I just got lucky this time. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.720 There's no way I can replicate this success again, and 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.600 you start doubting your abilities and you're kind of convinced 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.240 that the next project will expose you as a fraud, 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.640 you know. Then there's the who MEI. You're given a 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.200 promotion or award or some form of recognition, and while 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.640 everyone congratulates you, all you can think is this wasn't 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.600 because of my talent or skills. It's because I worked 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.400 really hard, or it's because I was in the right 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.040 place at the right time. And despite the external validation, 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.920 you feel unworthy or worried that everyone will soon realize 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.080 you're not as capable as they may think. So do 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.560 any of these sound familiar? Some of them do to me, 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:56.240 some of them don't. And I think that's the thing 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:00.160 about imposter syndrome. It shows up for everybody differently. One 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.920 thing I realized talking about this is that I didn't 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.960 feel this when I was younger and starting out. It's 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.719 kind of crept up on me as I've started being 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:14.760 invited into spaces that I'd always dreamt about. So here 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.160 are my big questions today. Is imposter syndrome something we 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.920 just have to live with or is there more to it? 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.000 Is there something we can be doing about it? And 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.679 is it even a bad thing? Does it just signify 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.040 that you are stretched to the enth of your abilities 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.079 and are pushing forward To help answer these questions and 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.920 a whole lot more and to navigate imposter syndrome. We 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.400 have the perfect guest today, doctor Lisa or A Austin. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.480 She's a psychologist, executive coach, and one of the leading 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.240 voices on imposter syndrome. The reason that this episode has 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.520 taken me so long to execute is I was really 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.760 specific on who we invited on for this episode to 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.640 cover this topic because I think I think it can 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:05.960 be a landmind. It's confusing, and I also think that 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.960 the cultural portion of this is incredibly important. Imposter syndrome 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.640 is definitely exacerbated when you are underrepresented in your context, 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.680 and I didn't want to gloss over any of this. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.800 And I'm just so grateful for our guest time today 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.000 and really excited because I feel like there is no 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.520 one better to navigate all of this than doctor Lisa 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.640 Orbe Austen. She's a psychologist, executive coach, and one of 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.880 the leading voices on imposter syndrome. You may have seen 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.440 her in Forbes, The New York Times, Good Morning America, 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.240 The Today Show. But you know what's so funny, despite 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.439 all of her success, she still grapples with imposter syndrome herself. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.640 So enough babbling from me this episode. It is really 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.920 close to my heart, and I'm just so grateful for 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.720 doctor Orbe Austen's time. A lot of people pull at her, 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.440 and I'm just so grateful that she shared her time 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:07.000 with us. I personally learned so much. It's a conversation 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.880 I've been thinking about since we've had it, and that's 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.199 when I know it's a special one. So let's get 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:24.719 into it. So, Doctor Lisa, this podcast is nearly exclusively 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.200 for women, and so I hear the word imposter syndrome 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:33.560 brought up on Pretty Smart probably thirty to forty percent 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:38.800 of the interviews that I do. What exactly is imposter syndrome. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.800 So it's not shocking that you hear it a lot 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.200 because from the research, about seventy percent of people experience 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.760 imposter syndrome over their lifetime. So it's a really common experience. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:55.040 And it's the experience when you are competent, capable, experienced, credentialed, 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.199 even expert, but yet haven't internalized that. And as a 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.000 result of not internalizing that, you tend to fear being 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.400 found out or found that you're a fraud. And often 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.640 for you, that doesn't necessarily mean being a fraud. It 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.319 means making a mistake, having human issues, having a failure, 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.439 all of those things can then feel like as if 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.600 you're being found out to be a fraud. In order 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.680 to compensate from that feeling of fraudulence, we often either 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.960 overwork or self sabotage to cope with it, and then 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.319 often get ourselves caught in situations where we are chronically 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.559 burnt out and feeling really run down from the experience 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.560 of having to constantly overwork or overfunction to kind of 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.320 prove that we belong somewhere. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.920 That's interesting because I don't think that I would have 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.360 tied it to burnout at all. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:44.920 Oh, it's highly tied, and it's correlated to burnout anxiety depression. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.080 But I think what it does is because it makes 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.120 you feel like you're not good enough, You are constantly 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.040 trying to prove that you are good enough, and often 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.280 that comes from a stance of overfunctioning and overworking. 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.560 That makes a lot of sense that it affects women disproportionately. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.480 Then I've always heard that imposter syndrome comes from being 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:08.480 underrepresented in your context, So it disproportionately doesn't. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.800 Yeah, it doesn't come from that. We find in the 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.560 research that privileged and disadvantaged groups actually experience it at 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.280 the same rates. There's no significant differences, So that's a mythology. 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.920 And actually, up until about I would say last month, 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.080 I would have also said women don't experience it disproportionally 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.480 for men, but a meta analytics study came out this 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.160 month that took a look at all the research that's 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.120 happened in the last couple of decades and said that 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.880 they do find that there is an increase for women. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.559 It doesn't mean that only women experience it, but there 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.200 is a slight and significant increase for women. So yes, 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.679 we do experience it. I can now say that officially 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.240 we do experience it in larger numbers, but that's based 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:50.840 on the research. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.000 Yet I'm glad to hear that in a sort of 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.320 twisted way, because I hear women talk about it more 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.679 and that could be that men just don't want to 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.959 talk about what they're feeling inside. But also I've always 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.480 thought it it does affect women more so, so it's 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.520 interesting to hear that the research validates that. 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.640 Yeah. It just recently did it this month. And I 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.720 also do think like there's been an interesting research study 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.520 that looked at the differences in men and women who 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.520 experience imposter syndrome, and what they found was that women 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.840 tended to be counterphobic, so they actually face the thing 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.600 that they feared more often when they had imposter syndrome, 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.880 and as a result got triggered to experience imposter syndrome 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.560 more often where men were more interested in mastery and 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:34.720 getting involved in things. They already felt that they were 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.320 good enough, so they tended to affiliate with peers that 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.880 were less competent than they were so that they could 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.640 feel mastery. And so as a result, you're going to 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.720 get triggered less often when you feel better than everyone 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.160 and so like, it is sort of like a gendered 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.080 potential way of interacting with the world that potentially creates 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:52.800 this experience of experiencing it more. 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.320 That's fascinating. How does it show up? How do you 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.680 recognize that it's happening? What signs do you notice? I 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:05.280 think that because it's become such a buzzy term that 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.360 people use it to describe a lot of different things. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.640 I think that's captured beautifully. Yes, it's come to mean 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.840 like almost a single thing, like self doubt. It is 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.520 not solely self doubt. It is what I consider a 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.520 constellation of things. So usually when people identify truly with 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.760 the experience of imposter syndrome, they are experiencing a variety 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.720 of things. For example, they are feeling perfectionistic and feeling 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.560 like they have to do everything right to get credit 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.520 for it. They are feeling the fraud experience. Needing to 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:39.840 prove themselves, They're often overvaluing others and undervaluing themselves. They 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.240 tend to kind of really catastrophize mistake making and make 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.240 it bigger than it needs to be. They tend to 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.160 underplay achievement making and having trouble internalizing successes and saying 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.880 things like well, it wasn't completely me. It was a 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.359 variety of people. So there's a variety and a constellation 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.280 of things going on. And when you can identify with 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.320 almost a significant amount of the constellation, I think that's 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.840 when you where you're experiencing imposter synome. It's not just 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.400 self doubt, and it isn't transient. Typically, typically people have 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.120 experienced it for long periods of time. Like so if 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.880 you've experienced in one situation, chances are and never experienced 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.240 it again, chances are probably was imposter them. It just 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.040 was discomfort anxiety. But when you have a usually the 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.320 people have a significant history of experiencing this over their 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:24.080 entire lifetime. 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.240 So it's not something that can pop up based on 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:27.960 your environment. 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.000 Usually it comes from childhood, so usually it's been around 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.680 for a long time, and so you can recognize it 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.080 from your educational experiences, from the ways you interacted with peers, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.040 the ways you interacted with authority figures. You can see 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.760 it usually throughout. So oftentimes people say, oh, my boss 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.560 gave me imposter syndrome. Highly unlikely. It may have triggered it. 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.080 You may have felt insecure or like not good enough 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.920 with them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they gave it 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.320 to you. Largely this comes from a very well grooved 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.360 early developmental pattern that is so interesting. 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.960 So when you say early childhood, I've heard some things 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.240 that say that it's from the role that our parents 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:13.760 played in setting expectations to codependent family dynamics. Actually, what's 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.800 your take on how our upbringing affects us in a 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.120 sort of more zoomed in way. 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.480 Yeah, so I think it affects us in a variety 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.960 of ways. We're actually writing a whole new book about 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.879 parenting and imposter syndrome, which God has me thinking about 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.879 this in a variety of different ways. It's interesting, but 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.760 I think that largely, to capture it in a nutshell, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.800 it is about the way our parents like see us, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.239 the way they look at us. For example, we can 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.240 often get caught in very siloed roles when we have 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.000 imposter syndromes. So you were the intelligent one who things 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:45.760 came easy to or you were the one who was 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.159 hard working, who had to work hard for everything. So 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:49.720 you get caught in this idea where you're seeing it 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.840 in one dimension and you feel like, you know, people 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.240 don't really know the truth about me, and that you're 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.000 hiding some part of yourself. And really what you're experiencing 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.000 is the humanity of what it means to be you, 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.840 but people have not seen you in that full whole way, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.400 so that piece can be a part of it. Codependent 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.680 dynamics can really push that people pleasing elements of imposter 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.440 syndrome where you feel like in order to be seen 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.119 as valuable or valued, you have to make other people 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.040 happy and you can't say no, and that often comes 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.879 from that codependent environment where saying no is going against 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.800 the family family grain, and so that can be Having 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.240 a narcissistic caregiver can also create it. So a caregiver 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.080 where you are like an extension of them, You aren't 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.160 your own person, and they see you as either fulfilling 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.240 that extension or not fulfilling that extension. You're punished when 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.600 you don't fulfill that extension and cut off. And so 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.560 those kinds of things can kind of create it. Issues 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.400 with conflict, not managing conflict well, and the family can 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.760 affect it, dealing how people deal with success and wins, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.240 and also failures can affect it. So all of these 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.560 experiences that we're growing up with that are getting repeated 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.440 over and over and over again are laying the foundation 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.159 for how it appears in our adulthood. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.880 Been wanting to do an episode on imposter syndrome for 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.000 over a year and it was so hard to find 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.639 the right guest for this topic. And I was so 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.200 excited that we finally found you because you are both 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:23.120 research based and anecdotally personally tied to this topic, which 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.880 I found just fascinating. You are an authority on imposter syndrome, 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.000 You've written books, you've given ted talks, and yet you 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.640 deal with it personally. And I saw that you said 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.280 you were totally triggered on the Today Show. What happened there? 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.720 Yeah, well it was when you put out a book. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.639 Ofttimes they ask you like what are your media sources 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.119 you want to be on, and like, you know, what 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:49.680 are your dream media sources, and it was one of 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.159 my dream media sources. 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:52.520 Who doesn't want to be on the Today Show. 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.320 It wasn't uncommon, but I just didn't think it was 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.320 going to happen. And then when they reached out to me, 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.640 I kind of was like, Oh my god, it's happening. 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.760 And then I think like, as it was happening, I 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.280 was like, oh, why am me? Why do they choose 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.199 me either? And I because I'm in this field, I 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.280 know all these other qualified people on imposter syndrome. I 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.480 was like, why not them? And no, why do I 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.240 have a unique voice in here? And I really just 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.200 started to go back to old patterns. And I think 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.800 it was because I was in this moment which can 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.720 be very triggering, which I was highly visible, and that 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.560 was being seen as an authority on a huge platform, 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.320 and it felt really scary to make a mistake, to 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.760 missay something, and it just really got me flooded and 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:33.679 it went I went back to an old place. But 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.440 luckily I have worked on it so long that a 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.440 lot of people said it didn't look like that because 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.080 I was able to kind of both perform and feel 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.840 the feelings, you know, And so I think that and 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.280 then process the feelings. I think that's the thing. When 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.680 I had imposter syndrome a long time, you know, had 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.920 it more prevalently a long time ago, I couldn't process 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.399 the feelings. I felt I was broken inside and that 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.879 there was something deeply, deeply wrong with me that was unfixable. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.280 You know. I think also one of the reasons I 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.760 find you to be such an interesting narrator for this 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:13.720 is that you have sort of like expanded the You've 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.680 expanded the definition of what this is. 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:16.879 Like. 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.600 I have read so many things that have this very 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:24.120 very narrow definition of what imposter syndrome is, and your 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:29.080 work has brought in really specific and research based examples 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:30.760 of it that I think people can grab onto. 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.440 Yeah, it's been really important to me because I lived 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.760 it myself. What I really wanted to do was help 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.840 everyday people get access to research that felt very far 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.160 away and very inaccessible about how to get over it, 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.240 like because it felt like for me it felt until 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.680 I found the research, until I got my own support, 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:51.919 I really felt like it was going to be there forever. 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.480 And now I know it doesn't have to be from 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.520 my own research and my experience, and it was like 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.159 I wanted to disseminate it to as many people as 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:04.320 I could because I knew how painful those experiences often were. 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.600 And so that's been like, my mission is really helping 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.280 to kind of give people accessibility to this information in 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.760 a way that's super easy to use, read build tools 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:16.679 like That's been really important to me. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.840 Yes, and it often feels obtuse to me and your 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:24.040 work doesn't. You did a TED talk about the topic 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.320 called the imposter syndrome paradox. Why is it a paradox? 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:29.280 What does that mean to you? 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.800 Yeah, because oftentimes when you talk about imposter and people 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.200