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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Toodcast. Today. I hope you've enjoyed your first

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Speaker 1: full double dose of football Week two, of college football

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Speaker 1: Week one of the NFL football football football. I'm not

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Speaker 1: footballed out. I really never get footballed out unless I'm

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Speaker 1: watching some version of the UFL. And even then I

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Speaker 1: find myself watching one quarter of that in March when

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Speaker 1: I'm missing college and pro football. But I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to linger on that. I'll do a little sports page

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Speaker 1: after the interview. And by the way, my interview for

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Speaker 1: today's show is a candidate that is running for the

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Speaker 1: US Senate in Michigan. That's right, another Michigan candidate, Abdul

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Speaker 1: al sayed he is the progressive candidate in that race.

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Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders has already endorsed him, and it actually is

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Speaker 1: going to It actually triggers a bit of a one

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Speaker 1: part of a topic I want to hit on here

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Speaker 1: in my introduction. I have a bit of a pot

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Speaker 1: parade today of sort of a weekend's worth of headlines

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Speaker 1: that I think are worth at least digesting more than

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Speaker 1: just ten seconds worth, you know, a couple of minutes

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Speaker 1: on a couple of these headlines, but the issue of

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Speaker 1: how progressive can Democrats go and still win general elections,

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Speaker 1: in particular, what to focus on the issue of gaza,

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Speaker 1: How divisive is that going to be in that Democratic

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Speaker 1: Senate primary. So all of those conversations. Look, whatever wherever

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Speaker 1: you are on the political spectrum, left right, center, center, left,

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Speaker 1: center right, I'd like to think that this is one

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Speaker 1: of the few podcasts on politics that actually gets folks

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Speaker 1: that listen from multiple, multiple sides of this. I think

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Speaker 1: you're going to find this interview compelling. Whether you agree

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Speaker 1: with him or not, you'll understand why my friend Ron

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Speaker 1: Fournier indicated that, and ab Do, I'll say, Ed is

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Speaker 1: a candidate to watch, and if he wins, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a huge test, right It's a huge test

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Speaker 1: of whether this his brand of progressive politics can win

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Speaker 1: in the Midwest, because it is a and if it can,

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Speaker 1: then it totally changes the conversation that Democrats may have

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight. But in the meantime, it is

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Speaker 1: part of a conversation the party is having right now

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Speaker 1: about what direction to go into, what ideas to emphasize,

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Speaker 1: and in fact it is you know, it's interesting. I

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Speaker 1: also my guest over the weekend for my new Sphere

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Speaker 1: show is Chris Murphy, Democratic Senator from Connecticut, somebody who

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Speaker 1: wants to go harder at Donald Trump. Pre twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five was I think if some people were watching him,

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Speaker 1: they say he wants to move to the left. He

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Speaker 1: wants to be a bit more to the left of

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Speaker 1: left of center wherever the party is. If the main

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Speaker 1: if you know, if you just put a number on it, right,

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Speaker 1: one hundred is sort of Joe Mansion on the scale

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Speaker 1: of Democrats, zero is Bernie Sanders. Chris Murphy wanted to

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Speaker 1: be somewhere close to the fifty yard line, but closer

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Speaker 1: to Bernie rather than closer to Mansion. And I say

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Speaker 1: this and that the Chris Murphy I encountered as a

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Speaker 1: guy who clearly is interested in trying to improve the

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Speaker 1: Democratic brand, would like to be a leader of the party,

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Speaker 1: is looking to see if there's an appetite for him

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Speaker 1: to run for president. He did not sort of shy

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Speaker 1: away from any of those questions. But what was interesting

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Speaker 1: was how he really said, Look, the Democratic Party's got

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to win voters that are much

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Speaker 1: more conservative on cultural issues, that there is more of

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Speaker 1: a common bond on economic issues, and something you'll hear

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Speaker 1: from Abdul say Ed that's else I ed. That's an

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Speaker 1: argument he's making. It's an argument he made in his

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Speaker 1: first candidate campaign for office in twenty eighteen. Same argument

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Speaker 1: he's making there, that the economic pain is shared sort

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Speaker 1: of on the idea a lot spectrum, and that one

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Speaker 1: way to sort of put Democrats and independent voters and

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Speaker 1: maybe even some skeptical working class Republicans is to focus

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Speaker 1: on economic issues and also security issues. Don't shy away

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Speaker 1: from the security issues. What do I mean by the

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Speaker 1: security issues, whether it's the border and get a little

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Speaker 1: tougher on immigration, or it's law and order in the cities.

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Speaker 1: And it's all about whether how are you careful not

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Speaker 1: to take the bait that the White House clearly is

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Speaker 1: setting up here. The White House absolutely does not want

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Speaker 1: to have a discussion about the economy right now, doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to have a discussion about tariffs in particular, doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to have a discussion about Epstein, doesn't want to have

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Speaker 1: a discussion about Ukraine and Russia. What they do, what

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Speaker 1: they would love to do, is continue to sort of

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Speaker 1: bait Democrats into pushing back at the White House on

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Speaker 1: the issue of how aggressive should these should these tactics

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the cities, how aggressive is too aggressive?

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Speaker 1: What is? And there's no doubt that the ridiculous social

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Speaker 1: media memes that the President has already retweeted sort of

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Speaker 1: him doing an Apocalypse Now parody. When it comes to Chicago,

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Speaker 1: it got the intended response right, which was it got

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Speaker 1: the entire sort of Illinois pushback, whether it was JB.

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Speaker 1: Pritzk or as governor or others that it was the

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Speaker 1: intended pushback that they wanted, which was this was over

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Speaker 1: the top. And there's no doubt the public does not

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Speaker 1: like the tactics. We continue to see polling that says

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Speaker 1: they don't want to see the National Guard go in.

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Speaker 1: But when you look at the two parties and you

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Speaker 1: say which party seems to be more concerned about law

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Speaker 1: and order, the Republicans are winning this argument, and they're

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Speaker 1: winning it big time. And that's why it is interesting

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Speaker 1: to watch how the different mayors handle this. Right, I'm

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Speaker 1: intrigued by what they're doing in Maryland, where or the

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Speaker 1: governor said, hey, we don't want any federal reinforcements. But

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Speaker 1: we're going to help Baltimore and we're going to help

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Speaker 1: with some state reinforcements. You've got a Mariel Bowser who

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Speaker 1: was saying, Hey, I welcome the federal intervention. I don't

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Speaker 1: like the masked ICE agents because that's pretty undemocratic and

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Speaker 1: un American. But for the most part, I appreciate the

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Speaker 1: extra resources in order to allow the police to focus

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Speaker 1: where they need to focus, versus other cities that are

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Speaker 1: thinking about a wholesale pushback on this. And I think

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Speaker 1: you know, there is nothing the administration wants more than

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Speaker 1: a showdown in Chicago. Now, does that mean rolling over

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Speaker 1: uncivil libertarian issues? I don't think anybody is suggesting rolling

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Speaker 1: over on these issues. The question is can you take

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Speaker 1: the issue away from It's like, look, we're focused on

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Speaker 1: this too. We're trying to do it within the constitution,

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Speaker 1: rather than only fighting the constitutional grounds and saying hey,

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Speaker 1: everything is fine and saying look at how great these

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Speaker 1: trends are. There's got to be sort of somewhere in

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Speaker 1: between here, because when you look at it that the

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Speaker 1: perception and reality are blurred here and it's going to

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Speaker 1: be really hard to win that larger argument, and it is, look,

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Speaker 1: at some point, it may be they use a tactic

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Speaker 1: that goes too far and it will implode on them

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Speaker 1: both politically and then some and I do think that

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Speaker 1: that in the long term there I mean, just look

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Speaker 1: at their trial balloon on trying to attack transgender Americans

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Speaker 1: and take away their rights when it comes to two

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Speaker 1: guns created a fascinating coalition that said you can't do that,

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Speaker 1: that that's unconstitutional, that that essentially the gun rights groups

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Speaker 1: going that that's a slippery slope. But it's also an

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Speaker 1: acknowledgment that this idea of trying to label. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the two most dangerous things retort that we've

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Speaker 1: heard from some on the right are the attempt to

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Speaker 1: label transgender Americans and lump them in with mental illness.

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Speaker 1: That's what clearly the Justice Department was trying to do

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Speaker 1: in order to get at that issue of guns. That's

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Speaker 1: going to be a losing argument. I like to think

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Speaker 1: that there's given that there is zero accepted science on this.

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Speaker 1: And then the second is who you designate a terrorist organization?

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Speaker 1: And who do you designate as terrorists? And you hear

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Speaker 1: Stephen Miller's rhetoric increasingly tries to call sort of people

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Speaker 1: that disagree with them on the left equate them, uses

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Speaker 1: the T word and terrorists, and it doesn't take much.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the rationale that's being

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Speaker 1: used by the administration and targeting that ship outside of Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: it all began with the State Department designation of the cartel,

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Speaker 1: designating it a terrorist't it's not an Act of Congress

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Speaker 1: that makes that decisionentually an interpretation of the current administration.

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Speaker 1: How far are they going to go with that? Right?

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Speaker 1: How much are they going to go with that? And

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Speaker 1: this is going to get and I want to get

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Speaker 1: at this debate here in a minute, but this gets

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Speaker 1: at the when it comes to these law and order

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Speaker 1: issues and when it comes to these immigration sort of

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Speaker 1: aggressive tactics, the White House is not going to back down,

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Speaker 1: especially since it is the only thing they're doing, the

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Speaker 1: only thing they're doing where there is positive poll response

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Speaker 1: from the public. The base loves it and is more

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Speaker 1: devoted than ever, and the goals themselves are seen as

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Speaker 1: goals that the public wants and those want to see. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's the tactics that are disagreed with. But when political

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Speaker 1: opponents read that disagreement, they sometimes interpret it that it's

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Speaker 1: the policy as well. Is also unpopular when it appears

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Speaker 1: to be just the tactics. And this is why I'm

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Speaker 1: intrigued by how Governor Moore has been handling this versus

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Speaker 1: some of these versus Governor Pritzker, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: it absolutely is worth a twenty twenty eight comparison. There

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt the base wants some fight, right and

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Speaker 1: this is something I talked with Chris Murphy. This is

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Speaker 1: why a government shut down is almost a given right now,

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Speaker 1: it given everything that's going on in Washington. So and

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Speaker 1: Pritzker certainly sees what Gavin Newsom is doing. There's no

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Speaker 1: doubt if you show some fight, the base is going

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Speaker 1: to reward you to a point. The question is how

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Speaker 1: do you tactically do it without also keeping yourself electable

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight with swing voters, and Pritzker is

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Speaker 1: coming across a bit in denial about the problem in

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Speaker 1: Chicago versus a Wes Moore saying, look, we know there's

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Speaker 1: more work to do. We just don't think you should

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Speaker 1: use unconstitutional means to do it. That is politically a

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Speaker 1: much smarter place to be, But I understand you sort

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Speaker 1: of need to do both. You need to fight on

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Speaker 1: the civil libertarian grounds make sure all this stuff gets

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Speaker 1: forced through the courts. I think I'm one of those

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Speaker 1: people that you know, that's what these interest groups are

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Speaker 1: good at doing, and sort of forcing judicial review over

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Speaker 1: controversial policies, and forcing judicial review is something that I

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Speaker 1: think if you have a weak legislative branch, which we

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Speaker 1: do right now, the only really recourse that you have

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Speaker 1: besides protests in the ballot box is judicial in some

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Speaker 1: sort of judicial review. So you can do that and

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Speaker 1: at the same time accentuate policies that respond to what

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Speaker 1: the electorate is seeing. But it sort of takes me

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Speaker 1: to I guess the which is an eternal challenge with

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration is that you know, if you look

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Speaker 1: at everything that's that sort of front and center right

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Speaker 1: now with the administration, any one of those stories could

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Speaker 1: be the dominating story for an entire week and it

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Speaker 1: would make everything else sort of disappear. We've seen this,

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Speaker 1: right the Epstein Files being the best example of a

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Speaker 1: story that can just totally consume everything. Well, we're in

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Speaker 1: the middle of apparently launching a war against Venezuela. Right,

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Speaker 1: we've stationed F thirty five's in the Caribbean. We've already

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Speaker 1: blown up a ship, and I'm going to get to that.

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Speaker 1: Because that debate, I think it opened up and gave

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Speaker 1: us a preview of what could be a fascinating debate

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Speaker 1: on the right in twenty twenty eight between the Rand

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Speaker 1: Paul wing of what's left of the libertarian wing of

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party and the JD Vance and his the rhetorica,

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Speaker 1: he used that basically, the ends, what I'm calling an

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Speaker 1: ends justifies the means ideology, which borders on authoritarianism. If

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Speaker 1: the goal is to destroy these cartels, then so what

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Speaker 1: if you bomb them? If we don't follow due process,

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Speaker 1: so what if we don't make the case to the

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Speaker 1: world what we're doing. You know, once we start ignoring

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Speaker 1: international norms that the United States helped set, that the

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Speaker 1: United States over decades has helped champion, when we want

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Speaker 1: to set those aside, we're just going to blow up

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Speaker 1: a ship. I mean, why we didn't board the ship.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of things to go with the

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Speaker 1: story with Venezuela one. If you're going to designate them

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Speaker 1: a terrorist organization, get out there and make the case.

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Speaker 1: The administration has not made a public case about this.

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Speaker 1: Sort of when you think about all the criticism of

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Speaker 1: the Bush administration, of the second Bush administration during the

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Speaker 1: first decade of the century over the Iraq War, you

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Speaker 1: know what they did do. They went in front of

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Speaker 1: the United Nations to make the case. They went in

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Speaker 1: front of the American people to make a case. Multiple times.

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Speaker 1: They put out the evidence that they claim that they have.

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Speaker 1: Now it turned out to be wrong. It turned out

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Speaker 1: to be bad intelligence. And we've had a debate about

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Speaker 1: whether it was intentional miss you know, whether the public

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Speaker 1: and the and Congress was intentionally misled, or if it

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Speaker 1: was just simply bad interpretation of intelligence. Regardless though, he

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Speaker 1: just didn't go into a rock before getting to a

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Speaker 1: vote in Congress. This is you know, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting and I can't help but looking at his what's

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Speaker 1: going on here with Venezuela here in the moment and

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Speaker 1: sort of see it as sort of, you know, Trump

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Speaker 1: just glorifies the eighties, right, He glorifies sort of two decades,

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Speaker 1: the fifties, in the eighties, right, he kind of wishes

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Speaker 1: all energy he's trying to turn the Kennedy Center into

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Speaker 1: some sort of combination of the two, right that that

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Speaker 1: sort of glorifies those decades. But in the eighties there

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Speaker 1: were sort of two. There were two sort of moments

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Speaker 1: where the United States played bully a little bit with

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Speaker 1: a small country. Right. We had Granada where we where

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Speaker 1: Reagan went there in a sort of overnight deal. It

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Speaker 1: was seemed to be a bit over the top, some

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Speaker 1: loose connection to communists in Cuba, but it was a

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Speaker 1: pretty aggressive action for but it was almost it was

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Speaker 1: quote unquote sending a message and it was in and

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Speaker 1: it was out, and it was a quick success, so

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Speaker 1: fast before Congress could really belch clear their throat. And

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Speaker 1: then there was George H. W. Bush and the and

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Speaker 1: the essentially the seizing of Noriega. And I guess you

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Speaker 1: could kind of put this what is going on here

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Speaker 1: in Venezuela with what was done with Panama, where Noriega

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Speaker 1: was appeared to be a part of the drug trade.

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Speaker 1: We were trying to tracked down on the various ways

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Speaker 1: that drugs were getting into the United States, and here was,

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Speaker 1: you know, a puppet in Panama who was once sort

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Speaker 1: of a puppet for the United States or for the West.

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Speaker 1: And I'm being a little over the top with the

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Speaker 1: use of the word puppet here, but the point was

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Speaker 1: there was a time he was our ally and then

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Speaker 1: he got himself engrossed in the drug trade, and so

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Speaker 1: we sort of did a military ish operation, right to

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Speaker 1: go get Norieg and hold him and hold him to

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Speaker 1: account for his role in the drug trade. So Trump

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Speaker 1: sent followed the war powers. You know, he's got to

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Speaker 1: send within a quick period of time. He's got to

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Speaker 1: send within twenty four hours his justification for the attack.

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Speaker 1: And here's and he writes the Senate President pro ten

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Speaker 1: which in this case is Jock Grassley, in the Speaker

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Speaker 1: of the House, which is Mike Johnson, and here's the letter,

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Speaker 1: because that's not gotten enough attention, because I RTE to

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Speaker 1: apprise you military action taken on September TECOD twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five in the Caribbean Sea, and of the potential for

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Speaker 1: further such actions. And then he writes this extraordinarily violent

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Speaker 1: drug trafficking cartels that the United States is designated as

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Speaker 1: terrorist organizations. Again, the United States has designateds terroist organizations

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Speaker 1: have brought devastating consequences on American communities for decades, causing

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Speaker 1: the deaths of tens of thousands of United States citizens

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Speaker 1: each year and threatening our national security and our foreign

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Speaker 1: policy interests both at home and abroad. These organizations have

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Speaker 1: evolved into complex structures with the financial means and paramilitary

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Speaker 1: capabilities needed to operate with impunity, engaging in violence and

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Speaker 1: terrorism that threatened the United States and destabilize other nations

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Speaker 1: in our own hemisphere. Friendly foreign nations have made significant

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Speaker 1: efforts to combat these organizations, suffering significant losses of life

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Speaker 1: due to organized violence at the hands of the groups

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Speaker 1: designated as terrorist organizations, But these groups are now transnational

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Speaker 1: and operate throughout the Western Hemisphere. In the face of

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Speaker 1: the inability or unwillingness of some states in the region

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Speaker 1: to address the continuing threat to the United States and

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Speaker 1: its persons and interests emanating from their territories, we have

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Speaker 1: now reached a critical point where we must meet this

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Speaker 1: threat to our citizens and our most vital national interests

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Speaker 1: with the United States military force in self defense. Accordingly

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Speaker 1: at my direction, on September two, twenty twenty five, the

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Speaker 1: United States forces struck a vessel at a location beyond

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Speaker 1: the territorial seas of any nation that was assessed to

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Speaker 1: be affiliated with a designated terrorist organization and to be

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Speaker 1: engaged in illicit drug trafficking activities. It is not possible

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Speaker 1: at this time to know the full scope and duration

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Speaker 1: of military operations that will be necessary. United States forces

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Speaker 1: remain postured to carry out further military operations. I am

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Speaker 1: providing this report as part of my efforts to keep

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Speaker 1: the Congress fully informed. Well, I'm not sure there was

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Speaker 1: much fully informed there if you look at any signs

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Speaker 1: at Donald J. Trump again, so you take this drug,

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Speaker 1: this gang, they've we've they've taken this Venezuelan national gang

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Speaker 1: of of a lot of Venezuelan national gang, and they've

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Speaker 1: designated a terrorist organization. And then because it's a terrorist organization, essentially,

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Speaker 1: you see him, he's making the case, Hey, they're beyond

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Speaker 1: this is They're not a nation state, They're not one nation.

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Speaker 1: He's not. It's fascinating that he does not mention the

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Speaker 1: word Venezuela here, because if if he was talking about

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Speaker 1: a country, he'd have to go to Congress. But they're

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Speaker 1: trying to make the case that this is this is

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Speaker 1: not about a specific country, but a specific country hasn't

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Speaker 1: done any work, and therefore there's a threat to the

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Speaker 1: United States and taking out this ship, not boarding it,

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Speaker 1: not sending the message that way, not arresting these individuals

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Speaker 1: or boarding the ship or frankly, to make sure you

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Speaker 1: know what you know they quote just decide to send

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Speaker 1: a message. This is what Secretary Reviews said. And again,

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Speaker 1: I know politically this is going to seem popular and

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Speaker 1: justifies the means. We're getting rid of these bad narco traffickers.

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Speaker 1: This is good Venezuela. If Maduro's upset, this is good.

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Speaker 1: But we have a constitution, we have a process. We're

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Speaker 1: sitting here behaving no different than Putin's been behaving in

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Speaker 1: his region. He designated Ukraine is essentially a threat like this.

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Speaker 1: They were not. He used the word Nazis, and all

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Speaker 1: of this has been his rationale for invading this country

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Speaker 1: in their own sort of again claiming some version of

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Speaker 1: self defense. This is the same crap that Putin's pulling,

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Speaker 1: except he's not in a democracy. And we are show

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Speaker 1: us your evidence that you knew what was on that

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Speaker 1: boat before you blew it up. You just decided to

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Speaker 1: blow it up. Are they going to share this intelligence.

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Speaker 1: When we have a Congress that's acting as if it

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Speaker 1: is an equal, coequal branch of government, there'd be some

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Speaker 1: immediate hearings. I haven't heard anything. It's been crickets on this,

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Speaker 1: and it appears we're going to do more. And it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know, you see the political fallout from this was,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jade Vance is sort of the social media defender,

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Speaker 1: mainstream social media defender. Trump does this crazy truth social

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Speaker 1: posts that you make it into sort of mainstream social

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Speaker 1: media with retreats and all this stuff. But Vance is

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Speaker 1: the one. He actively is on there and he basically

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Speaker 1: said he thought this was the highest and best use

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Speaker 1: of the military. And he had this back and forth

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Speaker 1: with an anti Trump, a guy named Brian Crassenstein, and

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Speaker 1: who denounced the strike then called it a war crime,

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Speaker 1: and then Vance just simply wrote back, I don't give

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Speaker 1: a shit what you call it. Well, what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: that statement, because again, what we did and our lack

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Speaker 1: of rationale and our lack of justification before we did

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Speaker 1: the attack and just waiting until after the fact, because

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Speaker 1: we have to take the Trump administration's word for this.

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Speaker 1: His word is not good with the American people at best.

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Speaker 1: It's forty percent of the country that accepts things he

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Speaker 1: says at face value. Majority does not. Certainly a majority

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Speaker 1: of the world does not. So Vance basically says, I

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Speaker 1: don't give a shit. And that's when Rand Paul jumps in,

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Speaker 1: Republican senator from Kentucky, who's, of course more of a

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Speaker 1: libertarian and he's certainly somebody who believes that Congress has

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Speaker 1: a lot more authority to exert when it comes to

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Speaker 1: military decisions. And he called that statement, what a despicable

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Speaker 1: and thoughtless sentiment it is to glorify killing someone without

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Speaker 1: a trial. And that was the point. He even said

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Speaker 1: it was really interesting. He goes, I should read you

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Speaker 1: the whole tweet. Some of you may have seen it,

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Speaker 1: but let me read you the whole tweet. JD. I

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Speaker 1: don't give a shit, Advance says, killing people he accuses

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Speaker 1: of a crime is the quote highest and best use

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Speaker 1: of the military unquote. And then Paul goes here, he goes,

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Speaker 1: did he ever read to kill a mockingbird? Did he

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Speaker 1: ever wonder what might happen if the accused were immediately

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Speaker 1: executed without trial or representation? And then the next sentence,

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Speaker 1: which has gotten some mainstream play. What a despicable and

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Speaker 1: thoughtless sentiment it is to glorify killing someone without a trial.

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Speaker 1: So look, I don't expect this current makeup of Congress

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Speaker 1: to engage in this, right, I mean part of the problem. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is the whole. The Trump administration does five or

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Speaker 1: six things that deserve extra scrutiny. And messing with the

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Speaker 1: independence of the FED is another one. The use of

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Speaker 1: the military as domestic police officers is one. Then there's

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Speaker 1: this and with essentially conducting military action against a foreign country.

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Speaker 1: We didn't say it here that it's Venezuela. Venezuela sees

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Speaker 1: it as an attack. So are we at war with Venezuela?

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Speaker 1: Are we about to go to war? Are we about

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Speaker 1: to do regime change? Now? Trump was smart enough. Some

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Speaker 1: lawyer his White House Council got to him. He did

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Speaker 1: not go down that road. He can be very sloppy

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Speaker 1: with his argument, with his statements sometimes, but he did

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Speaker 1: not say anything about that. He said no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: because the minute he says that, then he essentially lied

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Speaker 1: in the Statement of Congress when he informed them based

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Speaker 1: on the Warpowers Act. So this is one of those stories.

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Speaker 1: It should be consuming Washington in a world without social

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Speaker 1: media algorithms that are more obsessed about Jeffrey Epstein. And

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Speaker 1: I sit here and I understand this, But when you

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Speaker 1: look at all the stories that we're all dealing with

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Speaker 1: right now, it's still Jeffrey Epstein that seems to be

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Speaker 1: where traditional media is trying to go because it trends better,

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Speaker 1: or because social media algorithms report it. Whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: this has totally warped the news cycle a little bit.

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Speaker 1: This issue with Venezuela should be first and foremost right now.

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Speaker 1: The economy is right there, and law enforcement in our cities,

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Speaker 1: these sort of collectively here, this is sort of challenges

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Speaker 1: to the constitution right in front of our face, right

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Speaker 1: in front of our face, and most of the obsession

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Speaker 1: and the coverage and even political attention elected leaders, where

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Speaker 1: are they gravitating to? They're not gravitating towards many of

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Speaker 1: these stories on this anyway. But what have we learned

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Speaker 1: from sort of all of this? Over the weekend, we'll

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Speaker 1: say this, a vance Rand Paul primary is going to

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Speaker 1: be fascinating, It's going to be interesting, and it's going

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Speaker 1: to be We'll see how far we get there. We'll

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Speaker 1: see whether Rand Paul his what his political standing looks

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Speaker 1: like in two years. But he's now. It's interesting to

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Speaker 1: me watching him. He is been a bit more combative

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Speaker 1: with the Trump administration. He doesn't do it as much

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Speaker 1: sort of on the floor of the Senate. And he's

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Speaker 1: not really been you know, it's not like he's organic.

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Speaker 1: It's not like he went out of his way to

432
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: try to get more people to stop the One Big

433
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: Beautiful Bill, even though he wasn't a fan of it.

434
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: But he does seem to be carving out a place

435
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: he's trying to He's going to try to make an

436
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: ideological argument. Now the question is whether the party is

437
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: interested in an ideological debate or this is a cult

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: of personality debate. And I think, you know, Rand Paul

439
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: was hoping to have this ideological debate in twenty fifteen,

440
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: and a guy came down the escalator and turned it

441
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: into a cult of personality debate and the rest is history.

442
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: But it's I wonder if Rand Paul's criticism, specifically with

443
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: what's going on here with Venezuela and in the Caribbean,

444
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: stiffens the spine of more Democrats to call for something

445
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: a bit more because we're not we are not getting

446
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: a lot of information here about our defense out of

447
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: our Defense Department. And the yes, I'm going to call

448
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: it the Defense Department because Congress hasn't voted to change it.

449
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of a it can I just put it

450
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: this way, And before we get to this interview here

451
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: in a minute. And by the way, I've got a

452
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: new segment that I'm starting after that will come in

453
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: after the interview. So Wednesday's I got my top five,

454
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: which can go on all sorts of topic. Mondays, I'm

455
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: going to do sort of this week in history, and

456
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: it'll be something that has happened in the political historical

457
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: sense that's relevant today or certainly in pack did where

458
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: things stand today. I got a fascinating one that I've

459
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: picked out to you for my inaugural one, but I'm

460
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: going to wait on that here a second on that,

461
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: all right? And coming up, like I said, is my

462
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: interview with Abdul l Sayed. And it comes after a

463
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: weekend of more hand ringing inside the Democratic Party over

464
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: what to do about Mom Donnie, the Democratic nominee in

465
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: New York City Mayor Bernie Sanders, has been complaining that

466
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: the rest of the Democratic Party hasn't rallied around him.

467
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: It's interesting, this is a topic I asked Chris Murphy

468
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: about and you know it. Look, the issue is the

469
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: S work and it's socialism. And I will tell this,

470
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't think the Progressive Left is going to succeed

471
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: in becoming the majority, sort of the north star of

472
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party unless they get rid of the S word.

473
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: They've got to re define it, the word socialism. I

474
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: think the reason Bernie doesn't quite understand why it's so

475
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: why it's so lethal politically, is one he comes from

476
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: New England, and I do think when he's talking about

477
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: is European socialism, and many in New England see it

478
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: that way and they're not is. And it doesn't reflexively,

479
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't reflexively make make make people uncomfortable. But in

480
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: the South, particularly in South Florida, the S word socialism

481
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: is associated with a lot of these Latin American dictatorships

482
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: or authoritarians, you know, sort of borderline you know, democracies

483
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: that slip away from being a democracy. And when they've

484
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: done that in Latin America, it's been to the left

485
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: more often than it's been to the right. At least recently,

486
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: although we're seeing sort of you know, if you ask me,

487
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: the difference between a socialist and a and a nationalist

488
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: really is is just on how they treat and how

489
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: they treat the criminals. That's about it. There's a bit

490
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: more due process on the left than there is on

491
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: the right. But they want both both of them want

492
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: to nationalize the economy, both of them want to control

493
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: the economy. Both of you know, both of these movements

494
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: get into into ways of just sort of having government

495
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: more involved with the economy one way or the other,

496
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: which Donald Trump is embracing. That's the irony here, right,

497
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: which is, in fact, the Democrats would be smarter sort

498
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: of flipping the script here, not only dropping this you know,

499
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: sort of appeasement of democratic socialism, which again just doesn't

500
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: if the swing vote in American politics is first and

501
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: second and third generation Latinos, just trust me, the S

502
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: word is a disaster. Just ask Democrats in South Florida.

503
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: It's it's unrebrandable at the moment. You know, it might

504
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: take you know, if mom Donnie gets elected and has

505
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: extra ordinarily great run at mayor and builds all this

506
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: housing and everybody's you know, and there's this beautiful utopia

507
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: and it's all under the umbrella of democratic socialism. Okay maybe,

508
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: but count me very skeptical that that's going to happen.

509
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: Number one, But it's just not going to play. So

510
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: that is is going to And then there's one other

511
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: aspect to this debate. I just find it ironic, particularly

512
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: with Bernie. Is it Bernie Sanders lectures Democrats are not

513
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: rallying around progressives. He's still not a member of the

514
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: Democratic Party. He has made the promise to become a

515
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: member of the Democratic Party a couple of times when

516
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: he's run for president, and then he's broken those promises.

517
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: After his campaigns for president have been over, he is embraced.

518
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to lose that independent status. By the way,

519
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: what politician does want to give up in that status

520
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: these days? But I think it makes it harder the

521
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: pressure campaign that many in the left are trying to

522
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: put on. You're Acheim Jeffreys and your Chruck Schumer's and

523
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream Democratic donors to just shut up and

524
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: take it with mom. Donnie. You know, if it's okay

525
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: for Bernie to declare his independence and pick and choose

526
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: his spots. It's okay for any member of the Democratic

527
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: Party who invokes some independence to pick and choose their spots. Ultimately,

528
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: it might be a healthier exercise if this is a

529
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: larger debate or not. But I throw this in there

530
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: because I think it's a pretty good sort of primer here,

531
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: because I think this is going to inform the primary

532
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: campaign in Michigan, which is probably the best example of

533
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: this fight between sort of left center and outside right.

534
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: There's sort of you can look at the Michigan Democratic

535
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: Party as inside or outsider. You can look at the

536
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: Michigan Democratic primary as Washington versus Michigan. You can look

537
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: at it as progressive versus business interests. What I do

538
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: know is that it's engaging. It's engaging voters quite well.

539
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: And these are three very very good candidates for the Senate.

540
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: To be perfectly frank okay, and I certainly have my

541
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: points of view, but I do look at this, as

542
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: many of you know, as I try to see this

543
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: through the prism of political athletes, and there's three really

544
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: good political athletes in this race. So that will sneak

545
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: in a break. Like I said, We'll have the interview

546
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: and then after my new segment this week in History, we'll.

547
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: Be right back. Well.

548
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: As many of my listeners note, if I were running

549
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: a newsroom, a national newsroom, and said I needed to

550
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: open a bureau on the mid terms and have a

551
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: bureau that was just focused on how the midterms were

552
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: going to go, what were the most important races, I

553
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: would be in one state and one state only, and

554
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: it is the state of Michigan, whether it's the governor's race,

555
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: the Senate race. I think a lot of our political confrontations,

556
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: whether it's left and right, progressive, centrist, a fight on

557
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 1: the right between the right, independence, you name it. Michigan's

558
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: got it all. So you know I'm going to over

559
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: index on all things Michigan. Joining me today is one

560
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: of the candidates in the senate race. It is a candidate.

561
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: Then in my conversation with Ron Fournier, who is a

562
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: Michigan native, he was screaming from the rooftops, don't overlook

563
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: this candidate. The candidate's name is Abdul Lsied. He joins me. Now, Abdul,

564
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: nice to meet you virtually here, and welcome to the podcast, Chuck.

565
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: It is a privilege in and honor to be with you,

566
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 2: grateful to you.

567
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: And also if you had that bureau in Michigan, you

568
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 3: would It's the greatest fall that America has to offer,

569
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: not just because you get to watch my Wolverines. Yeah

570
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: play in the Big House from time to time. But

571
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: you know, y'all in Miami don't have a bad team either.

572
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: No, it's the it's the you know, it's U M

573
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: versus you of M as I. As I've learned over

574
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: the years, you've run for office before. But and look,

575
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: your people may not know your background a physician. You're

576
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: an epidemiologist, You've worked in public health, you've worked in academia.

577
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: And I guess I'm gonna say this. Look, you're you know,

578
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: you're you're in your early forties. Why a career in

579
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: politics now?

580
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: Now?

581
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: And I say career? You know, let's you've run twice,

582
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: so the career is? Why politics now? Why give me

583
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: your your origin story as to what got you in

584
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: to this side of the arena.

585
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't think of it as a

586
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 2: career per se.

587
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: I grew up wanting to be a doctor, and that's

588
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: in large part because of my own experiences growing up.

589
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: My folks immigrated to this country from Egypt, and I

590
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: was raised by my father, who's an Egyptian immigrant, and

591
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: my stepmom, Jackie, who's a daughter of the American Revolution,

592
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: from the middle of the state of Michigan. And I

593
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: would get sent off to Egypt often in the summers,

594
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: where I'd hang out with my grandmother. Why is this

595
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: most intelligent person I ever met, who never got to

596
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: go to school. She raised six kids of eight to

597
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 3: whom she gave birth to, having died before the age

598
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: of one. I would go fifteen hours and in that

599
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: time I am the language for it then, but I

600
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 3: would travel about ten years difference in life expectancy. I

601
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,479
Speaker 3: grew up just outside of the city Detroit. I didn't

602
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: have to go fifteen hours. I could go fifteen minutes

603
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 3: into the city and travel the same ten year life

604
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 3: expectancy gap. And I wanted to do something about that.

605
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 3: Growing up, my all my mentors always told me, someday

606
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 3: you're going to run for office. I was like, that's nuts.

607
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 3: I don't know if you all have seen my name,

608
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: Abdul is just like a truncated version of my whole

609
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: first name, which has got sounds in it that come

610
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 3: out of parts of people's throats they don't know they have,

611
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: so like that's off limits for me, Like so much

612
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: so that when I graduated from Michigan in two thousand

613
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: and seven, I was the senior speaker alongside President Bill Clinton,

614
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: and he comes up to me after the speech. He's like, look,

615
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 3: you've got a gift for communicating. Maybe we'll run for office.

616
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: A lembits are president. I don't know if you saw

617
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 3: my name, but like there are eleven letters in my name,

618
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: and that's just the first.

619
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: Have you met Barack Usain Obama? Yes, a lot of people,

620
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: including this guy here who thought, ooh, Hussein, is that

621
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: going to be an electable? I was wondering if youuld

622
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: get elected to the Senate. So I think he disproved this. No,

623
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: So that's exactly it.

624
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: This was seven in a way, I got to watch

625
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: him run for and win the presidency, and so you know,

626
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: I went on had my career in medicine, only to

627
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: realize that the things that we're making people sick had

628
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 3: a lot to do with access to some very basic things.

629
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: Do you get to drink clean water, breathe clean air,

630
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: A forge your groceries, which led me to career in

631
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: public health. I got to rebuild Detroit's health department. I

632
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: got to lead Wayne County's Department of Health Human Veterans Services.

633
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: Across my work, we did everything from put glasses on

634
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of kids' faces, take on some of

635
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: the biggest corporate ruters in our state, erase upwards of

636
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: seven hundred million dollars in medical debt for three hundred

637
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: thousand people, and over and over, and you start to

638
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: come up against the hard issues of politics, the decisions

639
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: that policymakers make that too often put the kinds of

640
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: kids that I was trying to serve behind. And so

641
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: for me, a lot of this work is about trying

642
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: to lead in politics that centers the people that we

643
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: say we care the most about, which is our children.

644
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter who their parents are, what they do

645
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: for work, what side of the tracks they grew up on.

646
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: I think we want in America where every single kid

647
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 3: has the best shot at a dignified life. And for me,

648
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: that's personal, right, Like I got to have these amazing

649
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 3: opportunities that kids growing up just fifteen minutes away from

650
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 3: me did not get to have.

651
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: And I think America.

652
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 3: Would be a better place if every kid got those

653
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 3: same opportunities and that we built our government around them.

654
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: And so for me, this run for office is about

655
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: trying to have the conversation that I think sits at

656
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: the core of politics, who are we and who do

657
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 3: we want to be around centering those folks in the

658
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 3: kind of public policy that would dignify them.

659
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think it's pretty clear healthcare depends

660
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: on your status, right how good your health care is,

661
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: if you've got the ability to find specialists, if you've

662
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: got the and sometimes that's sometimes it's financial, sometimes it's time,

663
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's location, it's geography, it's all of these things.

664
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: So obviously to me, I now understand why you're a

665
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: Medicare for All person, right, which is that this is

666
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: about you've got to rip off the class issue when

667
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: it comes to healthcare, because right now, your health outcome

668
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: depends on your status on the economic ladder almost more

669
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: so than it does race or gender. Is that is

670
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: that fair? Yeah?

671
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 3: And Chuck, I'll just you know, take it a step further.

672
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: You and I might have the same insurance and I

673
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: just know enough people that I could get access to different.

674
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: Right, you make the right phone call, who knows the

675
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: right person. Look, I experienced this firsthand. My dad was

676
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: on the liver Transparent list and couldn't get on the list.

677
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: And it turns out I remember that same year when

678
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: he was on it. And this is way back in

679
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: the late eighties early nineties, like Mickey Mannel got three

680
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: livers or two livers, if I'm not mistaken, And it

681
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know his doctor, and then you

682
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: learn it's everybody's on the same list. But does your

683
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: doctor know how to word it correctly? Sometimes it's not

684
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: even the right call, it's do you know how to

685
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: word it in such a way that it gets you

686
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: higher on the list? Right?

687
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: And that issue, Chuck, is exactly it, right, Like we're

688
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 3: talking about differences at the elite opportunities of having health

689
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: insurance in the first place, But the reality of it

690
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: is that there are a lot of people who don't

691
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: have health insurance at all, a lot of folks who

692
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: have second class or third class healthcare citizenship through something

693
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: like Medicaid.

694
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: Kind of stuff basically, And that's it, you know, right, Yeah, And.

695
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: Then even if you have private insurance, the experience of

696
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: that is getting worse and worse. I mean the deductible,

697
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 3: the median deductible, right, which is the money you pay

698
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: to get access to the healthcare you already thought you

699
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: paid for in the quote unquote premium every two weeks

700
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: or four weeks. That median deductible for a family of

701
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: four is about four thousand dollars. So you're doing the

702
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: math right. That average family of four makes about eighty

703
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. That means they are forging a paycheck to

704
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 3: get access to the health insurance that every paycheck has

705
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 3: been garnished to pay for in the first place. That's

706
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 3: if you have private health insurance. I mean, the system

707
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: is so broken and you ask yourself why, Well, it's

708
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: because everyone's got to get paid, right. The health insurance

709
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: company gets paid, the hospitals get paid, the pharmaceutical or

710
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 3: the medical device companies get paid. And I just think

711
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 3: that in America, we ought to have a system where

712
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: getting paid isn't the operative goal. It's that you get

713
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 3: health care to the patient who needs it. And I

714
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: trained as a doctor to practice in a system where

715
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 3: I could take care of patients, not get huge corporations paid.

716
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 3: And we don't have to live this way. But it's

717
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 3: getting worse and worse and harder and harder deal with this. Look,

718
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: it's a straw man argument. I'm not saying I ascribe

719
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: to this argument. But you've been to medical school. You

720
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 3: know the cost of medical school.

721
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: There's it's this belief that because it costs so much

722
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: money to become a doctor, therefore doctors should expect to

723
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: make a lot of money.

724
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: And you know, if it was the doctor's pay that

725
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: was the issue, we could have that conversation.

726
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: That's not where the inflation in healthcare is.

727
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: In fact, if you were to actually adjust a physician's

728
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 3: pay for inflation between now in the nineteen nineties, it

729
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: would be as if physicians took a collective thirty five

730
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 3: percent pay cut. So it's not that physicians are getting

731
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: paid so much. It's that health insurers and hospitals have

732
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: colluded in a system where they can mutually gatekeep for

733
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: each other to make sure that they extract more and

734
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 3: more from us and more and more of the value

735
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: in health care. So I don't want to Folks leave

736
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: this conversation thinking, well, healthcare so expensive because those doctors

737
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 3: get paid so much.

738
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: That's just not what's happening.

739
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: It's that those health insurance CEOs get paid so much.

740
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: It's that those hospital CEOs get paid so much. It's

741
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: that you have a system of mergers and acquisitions in

742
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: health care that empower all of them to suppress people's wages.

743
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: Just this weekend was at a nurse's strike in Flint, right,

744
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: because they're not able to actually negotiate with their hospital,

745
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: because they're just so few players in town that if

746
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 3: you're a nurse, you kind of got to work for

747
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 3: one of two different corporations who collude together to suppress wages.

748
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: It's the way that these really, really big players have

749
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: come together.

750
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: And this is the thing, Chuck, is.

751
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 3: I think people understand that, whether it's healthcare, or the

752
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: price of keeping the lights on your utilities, or it's

753
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 3: the price of a plane ticket, that you've got so

754
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 3: few players, huge corporations that have been able to ineffect

755
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: use their money to corrupt our political system to make

756
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: sure that they end up getting paid more and you

757
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 3: have to pay more for the things you buy from them,

758
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: and you end up getting paid less for the work

759
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 3: that you have to do for them. That is the

760
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: essential challenge of our system. Healthcare just happens to be

761
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 3: the most obvious, most blatant, and frankly, most corrupting and

762
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: saddening version of all of it.

763
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: Let me throw another strong man argument about the cost

764
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: of healthcare with from the angle of the pharmaceutical companies

765
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: that hey, it costs a lot of money to try

766
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: to bring good prescription drugs to market. Therefore, there's a

767
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: lot of drugs that fail and they've got to eat

768
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: those costs. So when they have one that succeeds, it's

769
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: got to pay for all the failures as well. What's reasonable?

770
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: What should be what should be the expectation on that

771
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: part of the cost of heblicare because that's a contributor.

772
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Chuck, I'd say that's a fair argument. If

773
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: the marketing budget at almost every fortune five hundred pharmaceutical

774
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: company wasn't larger than the research and development budget, so

775
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: you know, you know, fewer glossy ads on TV, more

776
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: research and development, then maybe I could like squint and

777
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: see the point. But the hard part is that in

778
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: this country we pay exorbitantly more more pharmaceuticals than other countries,

779
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: and the difference is that, frankly, our government is barred

780
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 3: in most cases from being able to negotiate those prices downward.

781
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 3: And if you look at how much their CEOs make,

782
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 3: how much their c suite makes, how much they return

783
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 3: in stock buybacks, I worry right that too often the

784
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: ways that these corporations work is about trying to play

785
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: finance games around having to sell you pharmaceuticals that you

786
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 3: don't have a choice about where you get them. And

787
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 3: of course, you know, we can nerd out here a

788
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: little bit, right, but we know that pharmaceuticals are right

789
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 3: the classic as we say, inelastic demand curve. That's a

790
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: fancy economics way for saying there are things you kind

791
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: of have to buy when you need them, right. So unfortunately,

792
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 3: they've always played this game where they just raise their

793
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: prices because they can, because you're going to buy those

794
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 3: medications anyway, because it's literally life and death. And so,

795
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 3: you know, it's a talenting situation that we have in

796
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: this country because the fact that healthcare has become so

797
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 3: expensive for so many people has actually undermined trust in

798
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 3: medicine and public health or at large. It's the reason

799
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: that the likes of an RFK Junior can go light

800
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: all of HHS on fire, because folks know that they

801
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: couldn't get the medications they needed in the context of

802
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 3: disease they knew they had. And then all of a sudden,

803
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: we're inventing new vaccines for a disease that didn't exist

804
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 3: a year ago, and we're saying, here, take these for free,

805
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: and they're like, look, I know I need insulin, but

806
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: nobody's ever come up to me and be like, here,

807
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 3: take the insulin for free, right, And so it's kind

808
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 3: of weird to me that you all don't give me

809
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: the drugs for the diseases I know I have, when

810
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you're giving me the vaccine for

811
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 3: a disease I don't yet have that didn't exist a

812
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: year ago. And it's the way that we've kept healthcare

813
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 3: that people know they need out of their hands because

814
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 3: the prices are so expensive. That has really undercut the

815
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 3: knees out of the public health arguments that folks like

816
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: me have been making for a very long time. And

817
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: it's sad to watch a guy like RFK Junior, who

818
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: shouldn't have his hands on, frankly, anything having to do

819
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 3: with science and health in this country, now come and

820
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 3: use that very premise to destroy so much of what

821
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: so many.

822
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: People have tried to build actually broaden that issue out

823
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: a little bit in this respect, which is you were

824
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: practicing medicine sort of at the arguably at the beginning

825
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: stages of when doctor Internet would intervene. Right, your patient

826
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: would come in and say, hey, I read this, doctor,

827
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 1: what can you tell me about this? Right? And now,

828
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: of course, doctor Internet is a gigantic problem, and it's

829
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: so much bigger, and it's created this misinformation is sort

830
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: of now it's becoming public policy and public health. But

831
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: when did you first start to notice that this was

832
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: that essentially, and I think you know what I mean

833
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: when I say doctor Internet right where this was really

834
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: starting to get into the way of healthcare.

835
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I want to be clear, I took my

836
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 3: career right as soon as I graduated med school into

837
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 3: public health, so I didn't practice day to day. I'll

838
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 3: tell you though, that the impact of the Internet, frankly,

839
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 3: the impact of algorithmic amplification of health information, I think,

840
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 3: really started to take hold in the early twenty tens.

841
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: I mean, you had the advent of Facebook.

842
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 3: I remember being one of the first ten thousand people

843
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: on Facebook when it came to my university my freshman year, right,

844
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 3: And then that when I graduated college, went mobile on

845
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 3: the new invention called the iPhone, and I think at

846
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 3: that point the Internet company started to realize that they

847
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 3: could sustain your attention on that device by feeding you

848
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: things they knew would create some sort of emotional response.

849
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: And health information is one of those things, because of course,

850
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: you want to keep yourself super healthy, and you know,

851
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: it's kind of a broken system, and all of the

852
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 3: exorbitant ways it's broken can wow and astound, and so

853
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: this was bound to go viral on the internet when

854
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 3: I think about you know, I graduated in med school

855
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, and I remember having conversations with patients

856
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: whose care I was involved in as a medical student,

857
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: and already they'd say, well, I googled my symptoms and

858
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 3: here's what I found. But when I talked to my

859
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: colleagues in practice, they tell me that the real like,

860
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 3: the moment that all of this started to really really

861
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: take off, was in the early twenty twenties during the pandemic, right,

862
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 3: And that was a moment where folks were really paying

863
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: attention to health and healthcare because it was in the news.

864
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 3: Folks felt like they had zero control over their circumstances,

865
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: and that the powers that be didn't give them the

866
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 3: kind of confidence that they wanted to be able to

867
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: have the kind of control that they needed in this

868
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 3: really scary moment. And I think it opened Pandora's box

869
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 3: in a way where you had a profound platforming of

870
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: folks like RFK Junior in ways that they hadn't had

871
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 3: in the past.

872
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: So talk to me about some ways to look this

873
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: is a this is a crisis. I think it's a crisis.

874
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm shocked that there aren't more people alarmed at what's

875
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: happening at the CDC. When I say more people inside

876
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: the Republican Party sort of whatever's left of the non

877
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: Trump wing of the party. I mean, this is a

878
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: national security problem. This is a risk to our economy,

879
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: let alone an actual risks to both young and old.

880
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: Right that the ones that are most likely to fall

881
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: victim to a virus or a disease that we had

882
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: once irracated are those with weaker immune systems again, children elderly.

883
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: And you've been in the space of public health, you

884
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: saw the distrust grow. Do you have good best practices

885
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: that you think would help restore trust. If you were

886
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: put in charge of the CDC tomorrow, you know you

887
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: would have to work on trying to build trust. What

888
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: does that look like? What are some good what are

889
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: some good ideas that you've put into practice that has

890
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: helped at least in one on one conversation.

891
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say a couple of things. Number one, you know,

892
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: it's funny. I have two terminal degrees in health. I

893
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: graduated in medical school. I did a PhD in public health.

894
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 3: And if I walk up to people and say, well,

895
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: as a double doctorate, your doctor doctor plain to you.

896
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: They consider and call you doctor doctor.

897
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, but like that's actually not the play most

898
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: often is like, hey, look, I'm a father of a

899
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 3: seven year old and a two year old. I also

900
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: happen to have a medical degree and a PhD in

901
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: public health, and I've worked as a health commissioner, but

902
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 3: as a father, let me tell you what I was

903
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 3: so excited to do when my kids turn one, Who's

904
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: give them these vaccines?

905
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: Why?

906
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: Because I've seen what it looks like when somebody gets measles.

907
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: I know what it looks like to see a kid

908
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: struggling to breathe because they got the flu. And I

909
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 3: don't hesitate to get my kids vaccinated. Now you do you,

910
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: But let me just tell you what I did with

911
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 3: the things that I know. I think that's Number one.

912
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 3: We need to communicate as people before we communicate as experts, because.

913
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: The lead with doctor, doctor, They're literally not going to

914
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: listen to you, Right, that's what you're concerned.

915
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 3: Right. If I have to choose between doctor and dad,

916
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to pick dad every single time. Number Two,

917
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 3: I think we need to recognize that there is no

918
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 3: difference in the minds of most people between health care

919
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: and public health. And I think people are really frustrated

920
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: by health care, and that bleeds into whether or not

921
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 3: they're willing to trust public health. And I think we

922
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: need to be very very smart in public health about

923
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: advocating for a health care system that gets people the

924
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 3: medications they need when they need them, that does not

925
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 3: cost them an arm and a leg. It is a

926
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 3: crazy thing that in this country, if you get answer

927
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 3: two thirds of the time, you are going to end

928
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: up in some sort of some sort of bankruptcy. That's

929
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: a crazy thing. And I think that's a public health issue.

930
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: And I think when people don't see us talking about

931
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 3: the obvious things they have to deal with every single day.

932
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 3: They're less likely to listen when we come to them

933
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 3: in the moment of crisis and say, hey, we really

934
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 3: need you to pay attention to us. They're going to say,

935
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 3: where were you when I was struggling for my insulin?

936
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 3: Where were you when my mom got sick with cancer

937
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 3: and we lost our home over it? And I think

938
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 3: we've got to be able to say we were right

939
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 3: there and we were working on the problem.

940
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: I think the third thing.

941
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 3: Though, is that I think we've got to really really

942
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 3: get smart about the question of agency. And I think

943
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 3: what makes the MAHA thing so exciting to people is

944
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 3: the notion real or not, that you can control your

945
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: health future. And their whole thing is right. I mean

946
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: you've seen the videos, right, they don't want you to know,

947
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 3: and you're like, why don't they want you to know?

948
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: But like, also, what don't they want you to know?

949
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: And you're always like, okay, don't want me to know it?

950
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 3: Like I should probably know this. And so there's this

951
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 3: idea that if you like, you know protein max and

952
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 3: you you fibermax and you know, you take all the

953
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 3: right peptides, even though there's no evidence for them that

954
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 3: you can buy yourself out of the uncertainty that comes

955
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 3: with living in the world with respect to your health.

956
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: And I think we need to be able to understand

957
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 3: that instinct in this moment and recognize that what we're

958
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 3: asking is for folks to be able to have agency

959
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 3: through the collective effort that we put in to protect

960
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 3: each other.

961
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: Look, this is the challenge. You know, this challenge in

962
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: health is similar to education. Right. People want more personal

963
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 1: choice in where they how they how to educate their kids.

964
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: At the same time, they want to make sure if

965
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 1: they choose the public schools that the public schools are amazing.

966
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: Yet the more money you take out of the public

967
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: schools to give people choice in their kids education ends

968
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: up weakening the entire system. I think healthcare is a

969
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: similar issue. This is one of those in the Look,

970
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: this is the larger debate about you know, you know,

971
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: when do you sort of act as a collective and

972
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,479
Speaker 1: when do you sort of act as an individual? Right?

973
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: And what is and if you can you can sell

974
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: a collective if you're saving the individual right. But this

975
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: is a tricky I mean, this gets it to sort

976
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: of the large divide of large government, small government, right,

977
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: the old debates we used to have pre Trump. With Trump, right,

978
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: Trump wants a strong he doesn't want a small government.

979
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: If he you know, he wants an organization he gets

980
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: to control. He wants a strong gover, the jackbooted government, right,

981
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: and he wants to be in charge of all of it.

982
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: But he doesn't want a small government. So we're not

983
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: having that debate. But the remnants of that debate is

984
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: why it's been so difficult to sell medicare for all politically. Right,

985
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: It's the and it's the fear of losing the choice.

986
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: It's not the cost. I've always I know cost is

987
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: an I think cost is the excuse. I think the

988
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: harder thing because you said something else really important that

989
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: I think makes health care policy so hard politically, which

990
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: is because we all use the system. We think we're experts, right.

991
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: We are because our personal experience. We are experts at

992
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 1: you know, my father's experience, you know your experience as

993
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: a father with your kids. We're experts at those experiences.

994
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: But we actually don't know anything else. But we think

995
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: we know a lot, which is why politically this is

996
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: such a difficult thing to sell.

997
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 2: I'll say a.

998
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 3: Couple of things on that Right, on the education side,

999
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 3: there actually is a zero sum investment of money, right,

1000
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 3: like either the money goes in or it doesn't go in.

1001
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 3: But like when it comes to maximizing your own health,

1002
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: like I fiber Max, I protein Max, like I wear

1003
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 3: two health tractors. Right, And that's not to say that

1004
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 3: I think think that I can protect myself from ever

1005
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 3: being exposed to the flu when I happen to be

1006
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 3: out and about in the world. So I value a

1007
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 3: public health care system that protects me out and about,

1008
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 3: while I also do the things that I can do

1009
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 3: to control my own destiny. And the reality of it

1010
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 3: is that I think one of the mistakes we make

1011
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 3: is we actually fall into this this thought this not

1012
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 3: that trap. It's not this or it's not this, not

1013
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 3: that it's this or that it's this and that. Right,

1014
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: you can actually do both things like yes, go work out. Yes,

1015
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 3: if you want to, you know, take so and so supplement,

1016
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 3: Like there might not be much evidence for it, but

1017
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:34,479
Speaker 3: if you want to, like as long as it doesn't

1018
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 3: hurt you and you spend the money on it, go ahead.

1019
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 3: And also we can also get vaccinated to protect ourselves

1020
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: and others, and actually we want to live in a

1021
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: world where other people are vaccinated because it decreases the

1022
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 3: probability that we're exposed. The other point I'll make just

1023
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 3: on Medicare for All, which you made about choice, which

1024
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 3: I think is a really important one. I think the

1025
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: industry has played this radical game where they trick us

1026
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 3: about the choice we actually want. I don't think the

1027
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 3: choice we actually want is in October or November to

1028
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 3: choose between three plans that kind of look the same,

1029
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 3: that force us to play Russian roulette with the probability

1030
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 3: of getting sick based on how big or deductible is.

1031
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: I think the choice we want is to get to

1032
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: walk into whatever doctor we want to go see and

1033
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 3: to know that we're going to be able to get care.

1034
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 3: And the system that we have right now literally robs

1035
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 3: us of that choice. Right, the idea that you have

1036
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 3: in network versus out of network, or you could go

1037
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 3: and get a surgery and the anesthesiologist who is appointed

1038
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 3: to your case is now out of network, which means

1039
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 3: that you have to pay exorbitantly for a choice you

1040
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 3: didn't get to make. Right, that's not choice at all.

1041
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 3: What Medicare for All does is it's basically like healthcare citizenship.

1042
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 2: You now get to walk.

1043
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: It's like when you go to Disneyland, right you pay

1044
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 3: the entry price and then you get to pick which

1045
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 3: ride you want to ride. Not everybody's choice or experience

1046
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 3: of Disneyland is the same. Some of somebody rode Splash Mountain,

1047
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 3: somebody rode Thunder Mountain, somebody rode whatever else mountain there

1048
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: is in Disneyland nowadays. But you got to pick which

1049
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 3: one want you got to go to because you've got

1050
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 3: to walk in. And the problem right now is a

1051
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 3: lot of folks are locked out of that system. And

1052
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 3: it's like, depending upon what ticket you buy, you can

1053
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 3: only get to some rides but not other rights. And

1054
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 3: I just think that if the government said, hey, everybody

1055
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: gets a ticket. Now you get to decide what experience

1056
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 3: you want, that's the choice we all want, and the

1057
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 3: system that we have right now is taking that away.

1058
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 3: And I think we need to be able to be

1059
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 3: very honest with people about what that choice is and

1060
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 3: how we actually get it.

1061
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: And I think Medicare for All would be critical to

1062
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: doing that.

1063
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: So would you have a semi privatehized healthcare system still

1064
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: under a Medicare for All insurance system.

1065
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, chuck, So under Medicare for All health insurance is public.

1066
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 3: Health care stays private, So private hospitals, private practices, private,

1067
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 3: whatever right they're selling health care on the market. You

1068
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 3: just get to take your healthcare dollar that's given to you.

1069
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 3: Similarly like Medicare itself, right, that's given to you because

1070
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 3: you literally paid your taxes into the system and you

1071
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 3: got access to it. You get to go and decide

1072
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 3: where you get to go. Right now, depending upon what

1073
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 3: health insurer you have, you are locked out of some

1074
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: providers and not others well, and therein lies the problem.

1075
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: Aren't you still going to have Aren't you still going

1076
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: to be locked out anyway? Isn't there still going to

1077
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: be a tiered system? You know, if you raise the floor,

1078
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: you're still going to have some that leave the system

1079
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: and go fully private. Or we've seen the the advent

1080
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: of the concierge doctors and all of that business. Right now,

1081
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: I would argue that no matter what system you have,

1082
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: you're always going to have right that the elite is

1083
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: that super wealthy or might manufacture their own system anyway,

1084
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: no matter what system you create, because they have the

1085
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: resources to do it, but I feel like we're always

1086
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: chasing that that that would be a semi concern.

1087
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 2: Let me say a couple of things.

1088
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 3: I'm not as concerned about theoretical questions of super elite

1089
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: people opting out of the system and creating on I'm

1090
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 3: more concerned with whether or not everybody in our society

1091
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 3: can get access to the health care they need and

1092
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 3: that their experience of it gives them quality healthcare and

1093
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 3: does not cost them a fortune and or potentially their

1094
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 3: financial livelihood.

1095
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you in my.

1096
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 3: Articulation of Medicare for all, if your union or your

1097
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 3: employer has a bump over Medicare or whatever, we end

1098
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 3: up calling the public health insurance system, and you want

1099
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 3: to use that and you can get health care through that, Okay,

1100
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 3: that's okay to me. But I think right now is

1101
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 3: that we're using this false idea of choice to keep

1102
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 3: us from actually having the choices that we actually want.

1103
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 3: Because the vast majority of people right are not going

1104
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 3: to opt into some Conde concierge service. They're going to

1105
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 3: want to go and see the doctor or the clinic

1106
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 3: of their choice, and under this system, you actually can't

1107
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 3: do that. Under the private health insurance system, you are

1108
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 3: relegated to what is quote unquote in network. And I

1109
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 3: want people to understand what in network means. It means

1110
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 3: that your health insurer has negotiated, negotiated a buddy price

1111
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 3: with that particular system, so that the transaction, the financial

1112
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 3: transaction that happens, is beneficial to both parties. So if

1113
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 3: you want your choices curtailed by what's financially beneficial to

1114
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 3: your health insurer and the hospital that you're allowed to

1115
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 3: go to, Okay, that's the system we have. But if

1116
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: you want to be able to say, hey, look I

1117
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 3: think that hospital or that clinician down the street would

1118
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: serve me better and I could get a better experience

1119
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 3: getting a kolonoscopy or a better experience because I have

1120
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: to have gall bladder surgery, I want to go there.

1121
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 3: Medicare for All gives you the best shot at that. Now,

1122
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 3: if you're somebody in that system who wants to say, look,

1123
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to take I'm gonna pay cash and go

1124
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 3: into concierge source system, fine, if that's something somebody wants

1125
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 3: to do, But like, that's not of concern to me.

1126
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 3: That theoretically that'll happen, right because under this system, the

1127
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 3: fact that the vast, vast, vast majority of American public

1128
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 3: will have access to this medicare based system means that

1129
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: the vast, vast, vast majority of healthcare providers are going

1130
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 3: to take it, which means that now you can kind

1131
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 3: of go anywhere and you're free to choose based on

1132
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: what the market was supposed to do. Better service, you

1133
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 3: get more patients, and you grow. That's how the system

1134
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 3: is supposed to work.

1135
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: This is why I love this format so much better

1136
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: than the old eight to ten minute interview. You know,

1137
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: we went we went twenty five minutes on this one topic.

1138
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: Because you need twenty five minutes to talk about it,

1139
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: it's not easy to get the nuance I want to move.

1140
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a little more hardcore politics with

1141
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,479
Speaker 1: you here a little bit. Let's talk about your twenty

1142
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: eighteen race for governor. What did you learn from it

1143
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: and why did you think you were a better candidate

1144
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 1: than Gretchen Wimmer.

1145
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I learned a lot from it.

1146
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 3: It was a really intense experience getting to you know,

1147
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 3: my understanding of politics at the time was sort of

1148
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: similar to what you would have in high school Civics

1149
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 3: and based a lot in the advice I'd gotten from

1150
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: people who knew politics better than me.

1151
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: Trump had just been elected.

1152
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 3: I was aghast at what that said about our country.

1153
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 3: I happened to grow up in a home where I

1154
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: watched two people from very different walks of life build

1155
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: something that was special and greater than some of its parts.

1156
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: And I knew I had a story to tell about

1157
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: who we are.

1158
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 3: And I knew that I had the capacity to lead

1159
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 3: government agencies to do good work. I'd had that experience.

1160
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 3: I didn't appreciate just how important it is that people

1161
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 3: kind of know your name. And I didn't realize how

1162
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 3: powerful a lot of the party institutions would be when

1163
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 3: I ran. At the time, I knew that Governor Whitmer

1164
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 3: was going to be running than State Representative Whitmer was

1165
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 3: going to be running. And I knew I just had

1166
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 3: a different story to tell, and I knew I had

1167
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 3: executive experience in government that was different than the experience

1168
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 3: that she brought to it. I learned a lot, though,

1169
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 3: about just how important those relationships in the party could be.

1170
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 3: And ultimately we had our primary. We finished second of

1171
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 3: three out spent seven to one but earned thirty percent

1172
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 3: of the votes, and coming back at it, I'll be

1173
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 3: honest with you, I didn't quite appreciate just how big

1174
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 3: a swing I had taken. I was thirty two, had

1175
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 3: never run for office in my life. I've had maybe

1176
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 3: two years of public So there.

1177
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: Is a little bit of who do you think you are? Really?

1178
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 4: You're showing up here at thirty two. Some of us

1179
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 4: had to wait twenty years for this shot, right, and

1180
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 4: this time around, I'm forty years old. I was living

1181
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 4: in my in law's basement. Now I have two kids

1182
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 4: in a mortgage. I've been around in public service now

1183
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 4: for about ten years, and folks know who I am.

1184
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 4: And the thing that folks always kind of say is that,

1185
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 4: like I do, what You've been saying the same thing

1186
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 4: for as long as we've been hearing your name, and

1187
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 4: I have. And I think that consistency really matters, particularly

1188
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 4: when it is honest about the structures of our politics

1189
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 4: that have failed us. I said something in twenty eighteen

1190
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 4: I think folks weren't quite ready to hear at the time,

1191
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 4: and it's that Donald Trump himself is not.

1192
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: The disease of our politics.

1193
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 3: He's just the worst symptom of the disease, and the

1194
01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 3: disease of our politics is the system that allows huge

1195
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 3: corporations to buy and sell access to politicians to help

1196
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 3: write legislation that rigs the rules for them and against us.

1197
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 3: And you see it happening in every part of our life.

1198
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 3: Donald Trump was very good at weaponizing the pain that

1199
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 3: comes out of that system into a certain nihilism about

1200
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 3: our politics generally. And that's exactly what he did. He

1201
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 3: did twice. And like I hate to say it, right, Like,

1202
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 3: that's what happens with symptoms. When you treat a symptom,

1203
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 3: you don't treat the disease, it always comes back worse.

1204
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 3: And we're dealing with the worst case of these symptoms

1205
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 3: now well.

1206
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: And I always say this about the voter, which is

1207
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: to go back to a sort of a healthcare metaphor

1208
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: I used to use, which is, you know, why was

1209
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 1: somebody willing to take a risk of Donald Trump? Because

1210
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 1: they didn't want to take care of the disease. They

1211
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: wanted to cure it. They either die or cure it,

1212
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: so they'll take something that is extreme because they'd rather

1213
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: have either end it or total relief. I don't want

1214
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: to manage it right, And there was a time and

1215
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: I think the alternative to Trump was no, no, no, no,

1216
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: we can manage the disease. It's you know, I think

1217
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: people get frustrated with that. Maybe I'm botching it. So

1218
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: if you if you want to check, if you want

1219
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: to go for it. Yeah, no, I think, I think.

1220
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 3: I think the metaphors is a very good one because

1221
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 3: the other side of it is it tells us a

1222
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 3: lot about what people were frustrated about Democrats, particularly now,

1223
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 3: if you have a choice between one doctor who says

1224
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 3: your pain is real, I see it, and I know

1225
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 3: how frustrating it is for you. Here's some crazy ass

1226
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 3: medication you could take versus someone who just says, I

1227
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 3: don't think your pain is real. I think, look look

1228
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 3: at look at the summary statistics of the economy. Of course,

1229
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 3: the economy is doing great under my leadership. Which one

1230
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 3: do you go to? And one of the first things

1231
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 3: they teach you in medicine, And you know, folks ask me, like,

1232
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 3: I don't practice medicine day today. What is the applicability

1233
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 3: of your work in medicine to politics. It's two things

1234
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,479
Speaker 3: I learned how to listen to people in profound pain.

1235
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 3: And I learned how to have a conversation with people

1236
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 3: in profound pain. And I'll tell you that the thing

1237
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 3: about pain is that it leads to, especially when it's ignored,

1238
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 3: a certain level of cynicism about the possible ability of

1239
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 3: cure at all. And so we've got to be really

1240
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 3: good at meeting people about where they are and what

1241
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: they tell us about their pain, and being honest about

1242
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 3: what's causing it and how we work together, because that's

1243
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 3: the other thing in medicine you have to do, is like, look,

1244
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 3: I wish I could stap my fingers and make the

1245
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 3: pain go away. But here's what we actually can do

1246
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 3: within the bounds of what we understand. Here's what we

1247
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 3: can do together. And I promise you right, we're going

1248
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 3: to do all we can to make this feel better.

1249
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 3: And I think too often Democrats have said we're not

1250
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 3: actually like, let's be clear, our donors are part of

1251
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 3: the problem, and we don't want to face them down,

1252
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 3: So let's just ignore the pain and pretend like it

1253
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 3: doesn't exist, which is the best way never to get

1254
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 3: your patient to pay attention to you ever again.

1255
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: Assess Governor Witmer's governorship. Was it better than you thought

1256
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 1: it would be worse exactly what you thought? Is there

1257
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: something you would have done differently?

1258
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 3: I mean it's impossible to go back eight years and

1259
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 3: say I would have done things differently. Look, I think

1260
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 3: she did a great job leading through the pandemic. Obviously,

1261
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 3: I'm a physician epidemiologist who ran health department, so that

1262
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 3: probably would have been something I would have had a

1263
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 3: level of insight into that. It's unfair to ask anybody

1264
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 3: else in public service to have just given my training

1265
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 3: and experiences. But I think she was strong where she

1266
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 3: needed to be strong, she was reasonable where she needed

1267
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 3: to be reasonable, And I think that by and large,

1268
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 3: folks have been really grateful for her leadership. You know,

1269
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 3: no two people are the same. You're always going to

1270
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 3: deal with things differently. And you know, right now, to

1271
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 3: be honest in some respects, like when I look at

1272
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 3: this race and where we are in this moment, I

1273
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 3: kind of, you know, maybe this is just the person

1274
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:36,639
Speaker 3: of faith in me, like it wasn't my time.

1275
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:37,719
Speaker 2: It was my time for a reason.

1276
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 3: And I think about where we are today and the

1277
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 3: message that I have, and I'm bringing the same message

1278
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 3: I brought in twenty eighteen. I think the ability to

1279
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 3: actually govern on the message that you bring is not

1280
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: just a function of that message. It's also a function

1281
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 3: of whether or not people recognize it and see the

1282
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 3: structural features as you talk about them around what needs

1283
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 3: to be done now. And so I just think that

1284
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 3: this is the right time for a candidate like me,

1285
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 3: and this is the right moment. I'll be honest with you, right,

1286
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 3: I see that everywhere I go. I've been to fifty

1287
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 3: some cities now, Chuck, I've probably done about one hundred

1288
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 3: public events, and no matter where I go, right, people

1289
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 3: are like, it just shouldn't be this hard. And they

1290
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 3: see in my candidacy both a message that is as

1291
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 3: urgent as the moment and also a consistency that demonstrates

1292
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 3: that when I tell you I'm going to show up

1293
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 3: and I'm going to take that fight on, you're going

1294
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 3: to believe that I'm going to show up and take

1295
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 3: that fight on, because you can't look at me and say, oh,

1296
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 3: that's a guy who doesn't believe what he's saying. So

1297
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 3: I think this is the right time for my leadership.

1298
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 3: And you know, twenty eighteen just wasn't What do you.

1299
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: Make of her governing style right now, where she has

1300
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: worked with Trump where she felt like it was in

1301
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: the best interest of Michigan.

1302
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 2: So yeah, well I'll tell you this.

1303
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what is that line for you? Because even

1304
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 1: you get elected to the Senate, there's still going to

1305
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 1: be a Donald Trump in the White House, and that

1306
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: is a basic question. Do you try to work with

1307
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 1: them where you can or not.

1308
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 3: I will just say this, I've I've been around for

1309
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 3: forty years now, and I've learned that I have a

1310
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 3: bit more of an instinct for a fight than most people.

1311
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 2: So you know, I am not going there to make peace.

1312
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:23,480
Speaker 3: I'm going there to win the peace, and I recognize

1313
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 3: that winning the piece requires one to be actively engaged

1314
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 3: in the battle.

1315
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: So you're there to confront Trump, and Trump is on

1316
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 1: almost every level. So I'm let me just I don't

1317
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: want to put words in your mouth, but let me

1318
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: try and push back. If I have done this, maybe

1319
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 1: you think Governor Whitmer hasn't confronted him the way you

1320
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: would have in this moment.

1321
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 2: No, I don't know.

1322
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I've been in public service now long enough

1323
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 3: to know that you don't really know everything that's on

1324
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 3: another public servants plate, right, you just don't, and so

1325
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:57,719
Speaker 3: I doubt I can't say that I understand the equities

1326
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 3: that she's trying to balance. And she's been governor long

1327
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 3: enough now that she both has the trust of the

1328
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 3: people she governs, and I believe that she's doing her

1329
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 3: best to try and manage the very difficult circumstance on

1330
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 3: her plate. I'm running for US Senate, and at the

1331
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 3: Senate it's a very different responsibility than as a governor. Right,

1332
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 3: As a governor, your responsibility is you know that you

1333
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 3: really do have to make sure budgets balance and that

1334
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 3: you're able to sustain the critical public services that your

1335
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 3: government offers.

1336
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 2: As a senator, I am one of one hundred offering

1337
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 2: critical legislative leadership and accountability to the executive branch. Accountability

1338
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 2: on Donald Trump. People in Michigan, if they elect me,

1339
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 2: they will be electing me to go and hold him

1340
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 2: accountable because he's clearly running in excess of any article

1341
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 2: to rights that the Constitution or privileges that the Constitution

1342
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 2: has given him. And so you know, I may be

1343
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,520
Speaker 2: more purpose fit for this particular job in this particular

1344
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 2: time against this particular president. But I'm not getting sent

1345
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 2: out there to a peace I'm not getting out sent

1346
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 2: out there to tell RFK Junior he's doing a great job,

1347
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 2: because he's not. I'm not getting sent out there right

1348
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 2: to allow Donald Trump to continue to run rough shot

1349
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 2: over the Constitution. I will be sent by voters in

1350
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 2: the state of Michigan to reassert the power of the

1351
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 2: US Senate and in the Congress more generally, and to

1352
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,480
Speaker 2: hold Trump and the people he's appointed two key executive

1353
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 2: office roles accountable for their malfeasans. And I take that

1354
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 2: job really seriously.

1355
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 3: And it just may be that like this was the

1356
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 3: right time for somebody like me, because I just don't

1357
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 3: back down on a fight. And I'll just tell you this, chuck,

1358
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:45,759
Speaker 3: like you know, my name's been Abdul my whole life.

1359
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 3: You can imagine that data school. I've dealt with bullies,

1360
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 3: right and I've learned that if you let the bully

1361
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:53,759
Speaker 3: take your lunch money once, you're not going to eat lunch.

1362
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,759
Speaker 3: So I made a habit right of never letting bullies

1363
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:57,679
Speaker 3: take my lunch money.

1364
01:12:57,960 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 2: And so I think we need a lot more of

1365
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 2: that in DC. Right now.

1366
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:04,560
Speaker 1: I find your primary opponents, the three of you, I

1367
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 1: think these are three really interesting candidates. All of you

1368
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: on your own are interesting, and I'm going to it

1369
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,560
Speaker 1: almost feels like the story of the Three Bears, and

1370
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 1: it's different different porridges, right, one's hot, one's cold, and

1371
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 1: I don't know which one of the voters are going to

1372
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: decide is just right. We don't know who Goldilocs is

1373
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,919
Speaker 1: right now for the primary because you have one. Basically,

1374
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 1: you guys are making three different i'd argue more stylistic

1375
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: arguments versus. There's some substantive differences. I'm not going to

1376
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,759
Speaker 1: say there isn't. But my guess is that this feels

1377
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 1: more to me like a sentiment vote. You know, a

1378
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 1: fighter conciliator, right, whatever it is that you think the

1379
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 1: moment needs, is that how you see your two opponents?

1380
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 2: No, chack, I'm not going to push back on that.

1381
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 2: Quite okay.

1382
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 3: I think there are some very serious substantive differences. I

1383
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 3: have never taken a dime of corporate money. I ran

1384
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 3: for governor in twenty eight team. I didn't touch a

1385
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 3: dime of corporate money. Then you've got a candidate who

1386
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 3: is taking oodles and oodles of corporate money and another

1387
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 3: candidate who decided, you know, a couple of months ago,

1388
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 3: that maybe this corporate money thing is really actually part

1389
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 3: of the problem. I think if that is not central

1390
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 3: to your assessment of what's what's at stake and what

1391
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,520
Speaker 3: the issues are, there's a fundamentally different thesis.

1392
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: That for you, so that in your mind almost eliminates

1393
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: one candidate for you.

1394
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 3: In your head, I mean, I think in my mind,

1395
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 3: I think it highlights the difference between me and almost

1396
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 3: anybody else. Okay, if like, if you're I mean, I

1397
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 3: told you my thesis on this is that Donald Trump

1398
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 3: is the symptom of a broader disease. That disease is

1399
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 3: the way that corporations and special interests can dominate our politics.

1400
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:39,839
Speaker 2: If you don't.

1401
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:41,640
Speaker 3: See that as the disease, and we're just we're just

1402
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 3: dealing with with fundamentally different issues.

1403
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:46,799
Speaker 1: We're not to talk is in your mind, like whatever

1404
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:47,879
Speaker 1: it is, we're not having.

1405
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 3: The same conversation right right, like and and I think, like,

1406
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 3: I think that the hard part is it really comes

1407
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 3: down to do you think that Trump himself is the

1408
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,639
Speaker 3: fundamental issue or do you believe that when Trump came

1409
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,280
Speaker 3: down that hideous escalator back in twenty fifteen. There were

1410
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,679
Speaker 3: structural features in our society that people were really, really

1411
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 3: frustrated by that he was able to exploit to come

1412
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 3: to power. And my point is, yes, you've got to

1413
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 3: be Donald Trump. I don't back down to bullies. But

1414
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 3: the second point is this, what are you for? Everybody's

1415
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 3: against Donald Trump? What are you actually for? Right I

1416
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 3: can say Medicare for all because I've never taken a

1417
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 3: dime from a corporate health insurance company or a pharmaceutical company.

1418
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 3: I can talk about taking on DT and our local

1419
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 3: utilities because they spent two hundred thousand dollars to beat

1420
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 3: me in my last election and I've never touched a

1421
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 3: dime of their money.

1422
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 2: So it is a substantive. It's not even substantive.

1423
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 3: It is philosophically different about what we think the issue

1424
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 3: in our public policy and our politics are. So if

1425
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 3: you want somebody who's going to stand up to Donald

1426
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 3: Trump and on the next day understand how to address

1427
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 3: someone like him ever coming to power again, then I'm

1428
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 3: probably your guy. The other thing I'll say is this,

1429
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 3: right now they are tearing upart government as we know it,

1430
01:15:57,560 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 3: And ask yourself, what are the skill sets that you

1431
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 3: want rep resented in the US Senate, right, I am

1432
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 3: categorically different than anybody else in the US Senate.

1433
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 1: There is never you're not a lawyer state, so that

1434
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:10,640
Speaker 1: automatically makes you a minority of when it comes to

1435
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: Democratic candidates. That I mean. There was a great little

1436
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: stat over the weekend about just how many Democrat elected

1437
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: members of Congress or lawyers versus the other side, which

1438
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 1: is a lot more diverse backgrounds at least, and I

1439
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:25,720
Speaker 1: say neither of.

1440
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 3: And I want to be clear, I have a lot

1441
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 3: of respect for both of my opponents, and I think

1442
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 3: anybody running for office right now takes a lot of

1443
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 3: courage and a lot of effort, and I commend them

1444
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,759
Speaker 3: and anyone running for office right now. But I also

1445
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,839
Speaker 3: say that it's not just that neither of them are lawyers.

1446
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 3: It's that we are watching the desecration of health and

1447
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,800
Speaker 3: human services, the destruction of a critical piece of national

1448
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 3: security infrastructure in health and human services get destroyed. So

1449
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 3: ask yourself, what don't we have at the US Senate

1450
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 3: and what will we need to be able to build

1451
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 3: our government back to what we should have had, right,

1452
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 3: I just want to be clear about this. I don't

1453
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 3: think that CDC, FDA and IH were serving the best

1454
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 3: of what they could have been.

1455
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:09,200
Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of reform that was possible.

1456
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 3: So ask yourself, like, who do you want in the

1457
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 3: room to build what we should have moving forward for

1458
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 3: the twenty first century? And I think I offer a

1459
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 3: very different set of skills. And the third point I'll

1460
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 3: just make here is this, I don't I'm not a

1461
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: career politician, right, It's not something that I grew up

1462
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:26,640
Speaker 3: saying I really want to do this.

1463
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:28,640
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me push back. Someone's going to say, well,

1464
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: you ran for office at thirty two and all this,

1465
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:35,520
Speaker 1: So I take your point, but somebody might own dispute

1466
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: that what I would say, I.

1467
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 3: Also rebuilt a health department. I led a different one.

1468
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 3: I wrote the book on Medicare for All. I trained

1469
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 3: as a physician and an epidemiologist. And so if you

1470
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:51,639
Speaker 3: ask yourself what makes people sick, at some point you're

1471
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 3: probably going to get to that question of maybe it's

1472
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 3: our politics. So for me, this is like a logical

1473
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,160
Speaker 3: continuation of what I set out to do when I

1474
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 3: decided I wanted to to make my life about improving

1475
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 3: people's health.

1476
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 1: You know, it'd be really interesting if you and Amy

1477
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 1: actin over in the state next door end up over performing,

1478
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 1: they're both sort of she you know, she was not

1479
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 1: a politician and then saw what happened and decided to

1480
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:20,000
Speaker 1: jump into It's interesting to get see more people with

1481
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 1: public health experience decide, Okay, you know, maybe maybe we

1482
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: had to cut out the middleman here.

1483
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 2: And it's not a you know, it's not a coincidence.

1484
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 1: True.

1485
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 2: I think I think enough of us see what's happened.

1486
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,640
Speaker 3: You get into these rules where you're like, oh, I

1487
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 3: can really improve the health and well being of my community.

1488
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 2: And you start to see how political it all is.

1489
01:18:39,400 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 1: Then you realize how hard it really is, and you're like, really,

1490
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:42,640
Speaker 1: why is this so difficult?

1491
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 2: Right right?

1492
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 3: And I just think that like all of this kind

1493
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 3: of goes together. If you're serious about building the kind

1494
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:53,599
Speaker 3: of America that dignifies the well being of its children,

1495
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 3: you do things very differently. And that's you know, when

1496
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 3: people ask like how come you, how come you buck

1497
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 3: these trends, I'm like, look, if I never get into

1498
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,720
Speaker 3: public office, that's okay, But I swore an oath and

1499
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 3: I've tried to do the work that is that that

1500
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 3: oath implies, and so I would rather not get elected

1501
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 3: than get elected and hamstring myself to do the work

1502
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,080
Speaker 3: that I got elected to do. So you know, I'm

1503
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 3: going to run the campaign the way that I think

1504
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 3: it ought to be run. The last thing that hasn't

1505
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 3: come up here, Chuck, is just this our values. When

1506
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 3: we talk about values should apply in all places, in

1507
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 3: all times, should be on your values.

1508
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: You're transitioning to the topic I was about to get to,

1509
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: But go ahead, Yeah.

1510
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't steal your thunder.

1511
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:35,720
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, no, no no.

1512
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that.

1513
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 3: You know, there's the difference between a political position and

1514
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 3: a principle. And the difference is this, if your principles

1515
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 3: are get kept by space and time, they're not principles,

1516
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 3: They're just political positions. So, you know, when I think

1517
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:53,800
Speaker 3: about our responsibility abroad, and maybe part of this is

1518
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,759
Speaker 3: the fact that, like I actually have experiences being abroad

1519
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 3: and seeing how people see America because of the things

1520
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 3: that to often our policymakers do in very wayward ways.

1521
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 3: It's a crazy thing to me that we in an

1522
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 3: era where our kids schools are crumbling, we can barely

1523
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 3: afford healthcare for our kids, and they're trying to rip

1524
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 3: it away. We send blank checks to foreign militaries to

1525
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,600
Speaker 3: drop bombs on other people's kids and their schools and

1526
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 3: their infrastructure. And to me, like, you can't say that

1527
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 3: because you're too afraid of what that might mean for

1528
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 3: some special interest coming and spending against you, then it's

1529
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 3: just you are playing politics. I don't play politics, and

1530
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,839
Speaker 3: that is a huge difference between me and Frankly, Unfortunately,

1531
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 3: too many people running for us and anywhere, particularly here

1532
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:34,879
Speaker 3: in Michigan.

1533
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:48,120
Speaker 1: You know, look, in some ways, I know a lot

1534
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 1: of national reporters are going to parachute into this race

1535
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,639
Speaker 1: and do the Democratic primary story through the prism of Gossam.

1536
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: That that's going to be how this is done, pure

1537
01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 1: and simple. I think the conversation we've had, it's obvious

1538
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,200
Speaker 1: that if you pay attention to this campaign, it's it's

1539
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 1: it's well, let me ask you this. How much has

1540
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 1: got what percentage of this campaign in your mind is

1541
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,559
Speaker 1: about Gaza in the primary? How much do voters care

1542
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:13,679
Speaker 1: and how much of it do you think it should

1543
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: be a voting issue in this prime?

1544
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:17,679
Speaker 3: Let me, I'm going to push back on the premise

1545
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 3: of the question for a second. Okay, and because we're

1546
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 3: in a long form here, just let me just nerd

1547
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:26,640
Speaker 3: out for a second. In epidemiology, oftentimes what you do

1548
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 3: is you fit a graph to a set of data,

1549
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,839
Speaker 3: and then you ask about the impact of anyone variable

1550
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:36,120
Speaker 3: in a particular outcome, as if those variables don't architect

1551
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 3: on top of each other, and so we end up

1552
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 3: being implicitly reductive with any lens that we apply to

1553
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:46,400
Speaker 3: analyze the situation. So the question that is asked is

1554
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 3: often how much of a vote share does Gaza control

1555
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 3: because of what people think about Gaza? And I think

1556
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 3: in Michigan quite a lot to answer that question. But

1557
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 3: I actually think that the operational rule of the question

1558
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 3: of calling a genocide when you see it is as

1559
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 3: a values rar shock test.

1560
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:10,679
Speaker 2: It is foundational to whether or not I can believe

1561
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 2: that you're serious when you tell me that you're going

1562
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 2: to stand up to a corporate CEO or you're going

1563
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 2: to stand up to Donald Trump, because if you can't

1564
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 2: call what is happening when they kill eighteen five hundred kids,

1565
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 2: sixty thousand people total, render their entire homes unlivable, kill journalists,

1566
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 2: destroy hospitals and then try and push them into a

1567
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 2: different country because they happen to speak the same language.

1568
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:32,000
Speaker 2: If you can't call that a genocide, then I question

1569
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: your moral judgment generally or your understanding of the English language.

1570
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 2: So I just think that at some point it tells

1571
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 2: you whether or not people are actually serious about the

1572
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 2: values that they purport to have. So how can I

1573
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,759
Speaker 2: trust you when you can't even push against the enforced

1574
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,439
Speaker 2: language of your own party being enforced by maga billionaires,

1575
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 2: by the way, to actually show up and fight against

1576
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:53,479
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, or to show up and fight against the

1577
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical lobby, or to show up and fight against the

1578
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 2: corporate insurance CEOs. It undercuts all of those things. So

1579
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 2: as a direct issue, yeah, it is profound.

1580
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 3: This is a genocide that's paid for buyer tax dollars

1581
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 3: that are not being used to spend on our kids.

1582
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,559
Speaker 3: But as an indirect issue, it is become such a

1583
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 3: moral lens to see the world, because if you can't

1584
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 3: see the obvious thing in front of you, how can

1585
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 3: I trust you to see the other things as well?

1586
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 3: How can I trust you when you tell me you're

1587
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 3: going to fight for me?

1588
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:21,920
Speaker 1: Do you believe Israel was justified to go after Hamas

1589
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 1: after October.

1590
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 3: So I think I think the question is, I mean,

1591
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 3: let me step back. When we talk about justified, right,

1592
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 3: I don't know what that means in the context of

1593
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 3: all of this, because you know, I condemned Hamss on

1594
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,719
Speaker 3: day one, and I condemned ha Mass because they killed

1595
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 3: innocent people. They kidnapped children. Anybody who kidnaps innocent people

1596
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 3: or kills children is wrong. That's wrong, right, But then

1597
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 3: the question of how many then people, right, twelve hundred

1598
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 3: people were killed innocent people, and that is wrong. It

1599
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:58,720
Speaker 3: is condemnable, and that's why I condemned it. But then

1600
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 3: the question then becomes Okay, so what then becomes justified

1601
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 3: in the context of that awful atrocity. I think it's

1602
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 3: really really difficult to answer what a line would have

1603
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 3: been because I think a lot of us who've been

1604
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 3: watching that situation for a very long time would say,

1605
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,639
Speaker 3: we all knew where this was going, and we all

1606
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 3: knew that there were people like Smotrich and Benevier and

1607
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 3: Netanyahu who were going to see in that in opportunity

1608
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:28,680
Speaker 3: to answer to a base that sees this as a

1609
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:33,840
Speaker 3: messianic issue, not just one around protecting innocent people.

1610
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 1: Look, I would argue the extremes want each other, right,

1611
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: Hamas would love a further to the right Israeli government

1612
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 1: and vice versa. It's sick to say it that way,

1613
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,639
Speaker 1: but in some ways the extremes strengthen each other, which

1614
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:50,800
Speaker 1: is part of the problem.

1615
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:54,799
Speaker 3: And I think that you are exactly you are exactly correct,

1616
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 3: and then I think about what how do we get

1617
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 3: to a place or we can imagine an ultimate peace.

1618
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 3: And that's the worry that I have is that every

1619
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 3: president before this guy, who's ever been president in the

1620
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,600
Speaker 3: United States since the existence of the State of Israel,

1621
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:15,920
Speaker 3: has said that they believe in a two state solution.

1622
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 3: And then the problem with it is that we aid

1623
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 3: arm in a bet the very people who then want

1624
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:26,960
Speaker 3: to foreclose on the possibility of a Palestinian state. And

1625
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 3: yet we're sitting here saying what we believe in a

1626
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 3: two state solution, and then our money goes in a

1627
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 3: different place. And so to me, I find some of

1628
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 3: these questions kind of incoherent because they are decontextualized from

1629
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 3: the circumstance on the ground.

1630
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:40,639
Speaker 2: Right, what Hames did is awful, It's terrible.

1631
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 3: It's wrong, it's condemnable, and what the Israeli government has

1632
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:48,839
Speaker 3: been doing is wrong, awful, contemptible and should be condemned.

1633
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 3: And the problem is is that you know I'm running

1634
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,040
Speaker 3: for senator from Michigan, right, I'm not running for senator

1635
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 3: from anywhere else. My responsibility is to where we spend

1636
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 3: our tax dollars. And my point is, it's not my job.

1637
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,680
Speaker 3: There's too much hubrius, frankly among American policymakers to get

1638
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 3: to think that they get to dictate what the ultimate

1639
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 3: piece looks like.

1640
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 2: It's not my job.

1641
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 3: My job is to make sure that American taxpayers gets

1642
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 3: what's best for the taxes that they pay. And I

1643
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:16,280
Speaker 3: think sending blank checks to foreign militaries and by the way,

1644
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:20,160
Speaker 3: not just Israel, but Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia

1645
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:25,480
Speaker 3: and Pakistan, right, all of whom have sustained military dictatorships

1646
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 3: over their own people. I just don't think that's a

1647
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:31,599
Speaker 3: good value for pay for Michigan taxpayers, which is where

1648
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,559
Speaker 3: I sit. And I don't want my tax dollars going

1649
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,599
Speaker 3: to fund a genocide. I want my tax dollars funding

1650
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:40,519
Speaker 3: my kids' school. I want them funding my healthcare I

1651
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,719
Speaker 3: want them funding my roads and bridges, and that shouldn't

1652
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:45,599
Speaker 3: be so difficult to communicate while also saying, hey, look,

1653
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,719
Speaker 3: this thing of killing this many people is an obvious genocide.

1654
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 3: They said they were going to do it, and then

1655
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:52,040
Speaker 3: they did it. So what else do we want to

1656
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:54,840
Speaker 3: start speak to the issue? And I think this is

1657
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 3: where a lot of it has been very difficult for

1658
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,719
Speaker 3: Jewish Americans frankly, no different than it was for Muslim

1659
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 3: Americans after nine to eleven, which is, you get thrown

1660
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 3: into one bucket, and every Jewish American feels like they're

1661
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 3: being there, you know. And I always say, you know what,

1662
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 3: there's plenty of Jewish Americans who condemned BB but are

1663
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 3: pro Israel, and you can have this nuanced position. Except

1664
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:26,960
Speaker 3: it doesn't look like you can, right. It feels like

1665
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 3: in our politics today it's very difficult to have that position.

1666
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 3: I hope that folks can find space. Right, What is

1667
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 3: it we all want? We all want everybody to have

1668
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 3: peace and dignity and the right to self determination. And

1669
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:47,600
Speaker 3: I think here what we want is not to be

1670
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:51,479
Speaker 3: assumed to believe anything based on the color of our skin,

1671
01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 3: or our faith, or our ethnic background, and so I've

1672
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:59,680
Speaker 3: been very very clear to say that the government of

1673
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:03,560
Speaker 3: Israel does not speak for the Jewish people or for Judaism,

1674
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 3: and I think we have to always differentiate between the

1675
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 3: Jewish people and Judaism and the government of Israel, and

1676
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 3: any effort to try and muddle those two things up,

1677
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,920
Speaker 3: I think verges on the risk of anti Semitism. And

1678
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:20,080
Speaker 3: so I think we have to be very very very

1679
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,680
Speaker 3: honest about sustaining the space where people can have a

1680
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 3: multiplicity of opinions, and also that we can engage in peaceful,

1681
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,559
Speaker 3: in honest, in direct, in vulnerable conversation with each other

1682
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 3: about what we think the best course of American action

1683
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 3: ought to be to beget the outcomes that we want,

1684
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 3: which is peace, dignity, and the right to self determination

1685
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:48,639
Speaker 3: for Palestinians and Jewish Israelis alike. And I just think

1686
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 3: that if you start with those principles, it becomes a

1687
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:53,639
Speaker 3: lot easier from there to step forward and say, okay,

1688
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 3: then what ought to be done right?

1689
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:56,479
Speaker 2: How do we actually do this thing?

1690
01:28:57,200 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 3: Moving from this really difficult situation, and Chuck, i' just

1691
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 3: go back to the point, which is you've got extremes

1692
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:06,240
Speaker 3: that have dominated the conversation because they can always hijack

1693
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 3: that conversation and force people to respond to the most

1694
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:12,400
Speaker 3: extreme thing they just did. And I hate to say it,

1695
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 3: but like you've got those extremes winning the day. And

1696
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:17,640
Speaker 3: I don't know where we go from here, but I

1697
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 3: do hope that more of us, regardless of our ethnic

1698
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 3: or our faith backgrounds, can have the courage to both

1699
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 3: differentiate between groups of people and principle, and the courage

1700
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 3: to have an honest, vulnerable, and direct conversation about what

1701
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,080
Speaker 3: the best course of action for the American public is.

1702
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 2: Now.

1703
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 3: Look, there's a lot of money spent in our politics,

1704
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,240
Speaker 3: mainly by maga billionaires with very particular opinions, to try

1705
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 3: and keep us from having a direct and honest conversation.

1706
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:44,559
Speaker 3: Like I told you, I've been all over my state

1707
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 3: and wherever I go, like I'll be an Escanaba in

1708
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 3: the up when I talk about the obvious trade off

1709
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:53,839
Speaker 3: around our tax dollars. It's one of the biggest applause

1710
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 3: lines I get. I've had people come up to me like,

1711
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:57,840
Speaker 3: how come I've never heard a politician say the things

1712
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 3: that you say? And I'll say, well, because you know

1713
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 3: that point I always make I'm running on three things,

1714
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 3: getting money out of politics, putting more money in your pocket,

1715
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 3: and passing Medicare for all. That first one, right, makes

1716
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 3: it really, really difficult to have a direct conversation about

1717
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 3: where our tax dollars go because people are too worried

1718
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 3: that maga billionaire money is going to flow into a

1719
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 3: Democratic primary and dictate who gets to win and who

1720
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:17,760
Speaker 3: gets to lose.

1721
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: Let me ask one question on a word you use.

1722
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:22,760
Speaker 1: Some people hear the word genocide and they think, well,

1723
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:24,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have be able to have a

1724
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:26,920
Speaker 1: nuanced conversation with that person. Why are they wrong?

1725
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:32,240
Speaker 3: I had a really meaningful experience. I was invited to

1726
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 3: speak with the Jewish caucus of the Michigan Democratic Party

1727
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 3: and there were a lot of questions about whether or

1728
01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:43,200
Speaker 3: not I would show And of course I was going

1729
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 3: to show up because I love and revere the Jewish people.

1730
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,320
Speaker 3: I care a lot about my ability to make sure

1731
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 3: I understand their perspective and that I can serve them.

1732
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 3: Because wants to be clear, like the fight against Islamophobia

1733
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 3: is the same as the fight against anti Semitism.

1734
01:30:58,000 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 2: Those those those those very cool to run.

1735
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 1: Always said we're awesome, right, and by the way.

1736
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:06,720
Speaker 3: And I had a really well meaning gentleman. You know,

1737
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:09,040
Speaker 3: he kind of came up to me afterwards. He said, first,

1738
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:12,000
Speaker 3: I want to tell you you've got some chutzpat for

1739
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 3: having showed up. I said, well, thank you. I appreciate that.

1740
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,240
Speaker 3: He's like, you know, you're real much. I was like,

1741
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,400
Speaker 3: you're really in the in the get all out there

1742
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 3: we go. I was like, and he was like, but

1743
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:23,559
Speaker 3: I disagree with you. I was like, that's not surprising

1744
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 3: to me, but can you share where you disagree? He said,

1745
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:27,200
Speaker 3: you use the word genocide.

1746
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 2: I said I do. He said why. I was like, well,

1747
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 2: because the word has a technical meaning and I was

1748
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 2: trained as a scientist to use the word for the

1749
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 2: thing that I am seeing. And he said, but how

1750
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 2: can you call this a genocide in the face of

1751
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 2: something like the Holocaust? And I said, I can understand

1752
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:51,560
Speaker 2: why the lived experience, or the shared familial, intergenerational experience

1753
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 2: of the Holocaust and the insane, profound, almost incalculable degree

1754
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 2: of pain that was inflicted upon the Jewish people by

1755
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 2: a madman, dictator, genocidal, maniac and Hitler. I can understand

1756
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:18,719
Speaker 2: why the pain of that my echo in ways where

1757
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:20,679
Speaker 2: my use of that word could be painful.

1758
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,840
Speaker 3: I understand that, and I appreciate you sharing it. And

1759
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:30,280
Speaker 3: at the same time, if the only historical moment to

1760
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 3: which we can use the word genocide is the Holocaust,

1761
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 3: then we're setting an extraordinary high bar which basically renders

1762
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 3: the word how genocide unusable in any other situation. And

1763
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:45,519
Speaker 3: so I don't know how to both talk about this

1764
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 3: and say that this is not the Holocaust. Let's be clear, right,

1765
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:52,480
Speaker 3: six million people did not were not killed or exterminated

1766
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 3: in gas chambers, and yet the word was meant to

1767
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 3: protect innocent people from being rendered subjects of war so

1768
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:09,760
Speaker 3: profound that it targeted them based on ethnicity in a

1769
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:15,240
Speaker 3: particular place and intended specifically to bring about their particular demise.

1770
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:19,320
Speaker 3: I think, in the memory of the Holocaust is our

1771
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 3: responsibility to make sure that nothing like that, even to

1772
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 3: a far, far lesser degree, happens again. And so I

1773
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 3: just think that we have to be willing to use

1774
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 3: it when we believe that it meets those technical criteria,

1775
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 3: And that is to me, the best way to dignify,

1776
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:42,480
Speaker 3: right that awful, terrible memory in a way that renders

1777
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:46,640
Speaker 3: it meaningful and protects other people from ever having to

1778
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 3: befall something like that again. But I honestly understand that

1779
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 3: this is a painful, challenging scenario. So I hope that

1780
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:55,559
Speaker 3: folks who are listening and folks who hear me use

1781
01:33:55,600 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 3: that word understand that I do not in any way

1782
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 3: or demean the incredible crime against humanity that the genocide

1783
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:07,160
Speaker 3: of the Holocaust was. But we don't have the past

1784
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 3: to control. We have the future to control. And the

1785
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:11,879
Speaker 3: question of the way we use words to move the future,

1786
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 3: I think that's the that's the way we ought to.

1787
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:14,960
Speaker 2: Be all think human.

1788
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,560
Speaker 1: So should we be saying more directly that China is

1789
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 1: committing genocide on the leakers?

1790
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:22,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we should.

1791
01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:24,080
Speaker 3: And the thing the reason that we don't is because

1792
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 3: China is massively powerful, correct, and they swing their weight

1793
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,559
Speaker 3: around to make sure that we don't use that word, which.

1794
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:30,400
Speaker 2: Is exactly why we should.

1795
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:34,000
Speaker 3: I mean, like, this is the word that is used

1796
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 3: by definition among people with some modicum of power to

1797
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 3: protect the powerless. If you're if you're a powerful people,

1798
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 3: you don't have genocide inflicted on you. By definition, you

1799
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:46,800
Speaker 3: are powerless when you have genocide inflicted on you. So

1800
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:49,040
Speaker 3: it is our responsibility as people with some modicum of

1801
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 3: power to have the courage to use it. Now, the

1802
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:53,680
Speaker 3: reason that a lot of people don't is because you

1803
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 3: often are talking about far more powerful actors.

1804
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:00,040
Speaker 2: Well, and that reason it isn't cost.

1805
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:02,640
Speaker 1: Well, there's another reason sometimes not to use it is

1806
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 1: that it suddenly the person turns off the head, right,

1807
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:08,680
Speaker 1: they turn you off. I'm not listening to you if

1808
01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:11,519
Speaker 1: you're going to use that right some words. That's why

1809
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:13,719
Speaker 1: I ask. I mean, and I think you gave it. Look,

1810
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: if every voter gets an opportunity to hear your explanation,

1811
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,120
Speaker 1: then I think you're you're, you're, you're going to have

1812
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 1: a leg up. But there are some people there's the

1813
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:27,240
Speaker 1: use of a word right. You know sometimes what do

1814
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 1: they call him? What is it Godwin's law on the

1815
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:32,320
Speaker 1: internet about Hitler? Right? And you know when an argument

1816
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 1: certain words. That's why I ask, because that word can

1817
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:41,720
Speaker 1: just somebody may just literally turn it off. Up, I'm

1818
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:44,439
Speaker 1: not listening to him anymore. What do you say to

1819
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 1: that the night?

1820
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 2: I understand that is an instinct that's there. I think

1821
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 2: my job is to if I do my job well,

1822
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 2: it is to create the space in our public conversation

1823
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:02,600
Speaker 2: in our civic de that enables us to do the

1824
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:05,519
Speaker 2: things we need to do to create the kind of

1825
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:07,360
Speaker 2: future we all want to live in. That's the work

1826
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 2: like that, That's what at its best, that's what politicians

1827
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 2: are supposed to do. And I think if we shy

1828
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:16,559
Speaker 2: away from using the words as they're defined, I don't

1829
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:18,439
Speaker 2: know that we are doing the thing we need to

1830
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,880
Speaker 2: do to do and to beget that future in the

1831
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:24,960
Speaker 2: right way. And I understand that there's a trade off there,

1832
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:29,400
Speaker 2: and I think that there is this ability that we

1833
01:36:29,439 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 2: all have to also master, which is to be able

1834
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 2: to use words responsibly, but use words correctly and always

1835
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:41,639
Speaker 2: always use them lovingly, which is to say, it's out

1836
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 2: of my love for Palestinian people and my love for

1837
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 2: Jewish Israeli people that when I see people hurting other people,

1838
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:53,599
Speaker 2: that I stop that thing from happening.

1839
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 1: Look, I don't believe Israel safe until Palestinians are safe.

1840
01:36:57,200 --> 01:36:58,799
Speaker 2: There's a tradition a word in our tradition.

1841
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:01,960
Speaker 3: There's it's aang of the prophet Hummed piece me upon

1842
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:04,840
Speaker 3: him where he said, give victory to your to your brother,

1843
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 3: meaning you're like companion the person you're with whether they're

1844
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 3: right or they're wrong. And they said, wait, what do

1845
01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 3: you mean by like they're right or they're wrong? He said,

1846
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,720
Speaker 3: if they're wrong, protect them, And I'm sorry. If they're right,

1847
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 3: protect them right. But if they're wrong, then correct them.

1848
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:22,840
Speaker 3: That's how you give somebody who's wrong victory. And I

1849
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 3: just think that we would do well. It's not out

1850
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:27,360
Speaker 3: of a you know, obviously, I'm Arab. I know I

1851
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:29,080
Speaker 3: know that, and so when it comes from my mouth

1852
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,599
Speaker 3: with my name, people assume that it's a tribal thing.

1853
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:35,439
Speaker 3: It really is not. And this is why, like you know,

1854
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:38,240
Speaker 3: I have taken it on the chin. When I condemned

1855
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:40,280
Speaker 3: Hamas on day one, folks are like, well, you're not

1856
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 3: contextualizing it within the broader occupation, et cetera, et cetera.

1857
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:44,519
Speaker 3: I was like, look, at the end of the day,

1858
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 3: if you hurt kids, there's no context needed. And folks

1859
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:50,160
Speaker 3: will be like, well, like you must you must be

1860
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:52,840
Speaker 3: a self hating Arab, etcetera, etcetera. Like no, I am

1861
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,719
Speaker 3: just a human loving Arab. Okay, I'm a human loving person.

1862
01:37:56,080 --> 01:37:58,519
Speaker 3: And when I think I innocent people are hurt, I'm

1863
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:00,479
Speaker 3: going to show up and I'm going to the thing

1864
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 3: I think needs to be said, and so I hope

1865
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:07,479
Speaker 3: folks can understand that sometimes your experience set may give

1866
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:10,120
Speaker 3: you an insight that's a little bit different. But ask

1867
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:12,439
Speaker 3: people where their principles are and then ask them to

1868
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 3: apply their principles in all situations. And when folks ask me,

1869
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 3: they're like, well, what about Egypt? Then that's the first

1870
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:18,559
Speaker 3: question always get. Don't you do you think we should

1871
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 3: stop sending money to Egypt? I'm like, absolutely, we should, right,

1872
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 3: absolutely we should. And folks are like, wait, so, so

1873
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:26,479
Speaker 3: explain that. I'm like, they're like, Egyptian people like you.

1874
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 3: I'm like, yes, you think I'm coming at this as

1875
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:32,120
Speaker 3: a tribalist, I'm not like. I spent childhood summers in Egypt.

1876
01:38:32,160 --> 01:38:36,519
Speaker 3: I watched as that tax money made Egyptians less free

1877
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 3: and less safe.

1878
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:38,800
Speaker 2: From their own government. It's a correct government.

1879
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 3: I don't think us sending our money abroad is helping

1880
01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:43,519
Speaker 3: us or helping them, And I think it's the same

1881
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:45,639
Speaker 3: story when it comes to Israel. And I just think

1882
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:47,200
Speaker 3: that we should apply our principles everywhere.

1883
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:49,720
Speaker 1: I could keep going on. You're the exact kind of

1884
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:53,639
Speaker 1: candidate that I love seeing out there, which is you're

1885
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:59,640
Speaker 1: unafraid to have a straightforward conversation, you explain yourself. And

1886
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, I always say this politics is not about

1887
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:04,000
Speaker 1: finding somebody you agree with one hundred percent of the time.

1888
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 1: It's finding someone who you think is willing to hear

1889
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:12,719
Speaker 1: you out here and simple, right, I say, civilization invented

1890
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 1: politics so that we would resolve conflicts without death and

1891
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:20,480
Speaker 1: without violence. You know, that is why we have politics,

1892
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,840
Speaker 1: That is why we created it. We were tired of

1893
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:28,920
Speaker 1: making every dispute resolve, resolving every dispute with violence. So look,

1894
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 1: I see why my friend Ron Fortyer was putting up

1895
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:37,160
Speaker 1: the putting up the neon sign to saying, pay attention

1896
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:40,720
Speaker 1: to this guy. He may get some traction. This has

1897
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 1: been a pleasure. It's good to get to know you.

1898
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:46,639
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why I love this long form

1899
01:39:47,680 --> 01:39:50,439
Speaker 1: medium because we can have the nuance which I think

1900
01:39:50,479 --> 01:39:52,519
Speaker 1: we just did both on healthcare and Israel, which was

1901
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:56,879
Speaker 1: it's needed more and more in our politics, and unfortunately

1902
01:39:56,960 --> 01:39:59,400
Speaker 1: our media environment doesn't always reward that.

1903
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I appreciate you creating the space for it.

1904
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:05,920
Speaker 3: Appreciate Ron, I mean Ron, Ron has been Ron told

1905
01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:09,799
Speaker 3: me something when I in twenty eighteen, which I'll never forget.

1906
01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 2: You know.

1907
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 3: I was out there kind of like doing my thing.

1908
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 3: I was thirty two and like, you know, I don't

1909
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:17,519
Speaker 3: know if you remember feeling thirty two, but you feel

1910
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:18,799
Speaker 3: your emotions a lot more intensely.

1911
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 1: And when I had my first kid, Yeah, and then

1912
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,080
Speaker 1: I know you have all sorts of stuff going on.

1913
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you feel it right. He pulled me aside to

1914
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:25,640
Speaker 3: do I want you to know something? I was like,

1915
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:28,080
Speaker 3: we say. He's like, look, I watched I watched Brock

1916
01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:31,280
Speaker 3: with Obama when he was young and coming up. I

1917
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 3: watched Bill Clinton when he was young and coming up.

1918
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:35,280
Speaker 3: He's like, you're not gonna win this race. I was like,

1919
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:37,080
Speaker 3: And of course my response was like, how do you.

1920
01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 1: Know they have after you?

1921
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:38,240
Speaker 4: Man?

1922
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 1: They run the race the first time they ran. Yeah.

1923
01:40:40,360 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 3: Right, And he's like, you're not going to win this race,

1924
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 3: but you need to keep going at this because you

1925
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:48,639
Speaker 3: got something to share and I'm looking forward to watching

1926
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 3: what you do next. And it was fascinating because I

1927
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 3: didn't win the race. And I've stay close to Ron

1928
01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:57,400
Speaker 3: because he's the kind of person who is both extremely

1929
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,679
Speaker 3: astute at sort of reading the tea leaves more experienced

1930
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 3: and forgot more about politics than I've ever known. But

1931
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 3: he's also someone who has that rare gift for mentorship

1932
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 3: and I've just been really grateful to him for, you know,

1933
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 3: being able to share some of that with me. So

1934
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:14,920
Speaker 3: and I know there's been many many journalists that he's

1935
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,400
Speaker 3: helped mentor so I'm grateful. And you know, anything Ron

1936
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:19,280
Speaker 3: said nice about me is more because honest nice than

1937
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 3: it is because me.

1938
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,560
Speaker 2: But I'm grateful that that he introduced me to you.

1939
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 3: We've got to share some time and have some really

1940
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 3: good conversations about things that you know, I wish we

1941
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 3: had more space and time to have conversations the community.

1942
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:34,320
Speaker 1: And uh, we'll do it again. And when Miami and

1943
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:36,760
Speaker 1: Michigan meet in the playoff, maybe i'll see it one

1944
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:37,640
Speaker 1: of those games.

1945
01:41:38,240 --> 01:41:41,560
Speaker 2: Hey, well that'll be a lot of fun. That'll be

1946
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:43,839
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. And I'm I'm sorry for the outcome.

1947
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:44,880
Speaker 2: But here's I will say this.

1948
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:47,360
Speaker 3: Just on the college football front, Like I told you,

1949
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:49,840
Speaker 3: I rooted for the Hurricanes back when I was a kid.

1950
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:53,280
Speaker 2: Well, continue, the Michigan was always my team, but like

1951
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:55,600
Speaker 2: but but but but.

1952
01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 3: But Miami was number two, and you know, Miami very

1953
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 3: much at that at that time time, and you remember this,

1954
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:02,040
Speaker 3: they were like the bad.

1955
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: Boys college football were the rebels, yep.

1956
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:08,040
Speaker 3: And like I keep watching all the fallout of you know,

1957
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 3: the controversy of Machine. I'm like, are we the bad

1958
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:11,719
Speaker 3: boys of college football?

1959
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:11,920
Speaker 2: Now?

1960
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:14,640
Speaker 3: Like it's not something I understand Michigan to be, but

1961
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 3: like I know, well, you know.

1962
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:19,280
Speaker 1: It's look look at look at our perverted way. How

1963
01:42:19,320 --> 01:42:21,160
Speaker 1: often we root for the person wearing the black hat

1964
01:42:21,160 --> 01:42:23,479
Speaker 1: and the movies, right, we love Darth Vaders. We know,

1965
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:26,240
Speaker 1: we know Darth Vader's name. More people know Darth Vader's

1966
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:28,040
Speaker 1: name than Luke Skywalker's name. Think about that.

1967
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:31,200
Speaker 3: More people know Donald Trump's namean almost anybody else in

1968
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:31,880
Speaker 3: American politics.

1969
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:35,280
Speaker 1: So there you go. That's a drop the mic. All right,

1970
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 1: I'm to be safe on the trip.

1971
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:50,439
Speaker 2: You need to appreciate it. Thank you well.

1972
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:53,040
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that interview, And it's a uh.

1973
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: The best part of the podcast format is the fact

1974
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:02,120
Speaker 1: that we can get at nuance. We can do uncomfortable

1975
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:07,520
Speaker 1: conversations where you at least you can be fully informed

1976
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:10,960
Speaker 1: on where someone stands. And that's all to me. You

1977
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:16,360
Speaker 1: should ask for you know, sometimes folks would like a

1978
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:18,920
Speaker 1: lot of times, would like the interloker, right, whether it's

1979
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:21,000
Speaker 1: me doing the interview or somebody else doing the interview,

1980
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:24,000
Speaker 1: to sort of force somebody to take a position that

1981
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:30,120
Speaker 1: they don't have. When to me, it's more about making

1982
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:34,120
Speaker 1: them defend their position, explain their position, and defend their position.

1983
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: But their position is their position. And like like, I

1984
01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:41,240
Speaker 1: want to preach, and I'm going to continue to preach.

1985
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:46,720
Speaker 1: Why did the human civilization invent politics because we were

1986
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:53,839
Speaker 1: tired of resolving disputes by violence and political compromise. Essentially,

1987
01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:56,760
Speaker 1: why we politic is just to find a way to

1988
01:43:56,960 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 1: come to some sort of resolution with it in order

1989
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 1: to minimize violence, pure and simple. That's at its core,

1990
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:09,280
Speaker 1: at its crux of why politics is still a good

1991
01:44:09,320 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 1: thing and why I believe in it no matter how

1992
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 1: ugly it seems at times, how horrible you think it

1993
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:19,880
Speaker 1: is at times. Without it, trust me, things would be

1994
01:44:20,000 --> 01:44:24,439
Speaker 1: a whole lot worse, all right, I told you before

1995
01:44:24,439 --> 01:44:27,599
Speaker 1: I get to my little sports page for the week,

1996
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:31,240
Speaker 1: I'm daybewing a new segment, and I am calling this

1997
01:44:31,320 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 1: segment this week in history, basically your history, Chuck Todd's

1998
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:41,280
Speaker 1: history lesson one of the things that I find shocking

1999
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:45,679
Speaker 1: is how often I see, really, you know, this current generation,

2000
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:49,559
Speaker 1: whether it's political reporters, elected officials, sometimes how little they

2001
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:54,720
Speaker 1: know about information about things that happen in the twentieth century. Now,

2002
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 1: not everything I'm going to do is this going to

2003
01:44:56,200 --> 01:44:59,600
Speaker 1: be twentieth century, But each week I'm going to be

2004
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:04,919
Speaker 1: looking for an event that happened in that week sometime

2005
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:08,640
Speaker 1: in the last one hundred years, and we're going to

2006
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:14,320
Speaker 1: do a quick little explainer about it and go from there.

2007
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:18,720
Speaker 1: So this week and by week is September eighth through

2008
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:22,160
Speaker 1: the fourteenth. That's the window. And each week it'll be

2009
01:45:22,240 --> 01:45:24,479
Speaker 1: Monday through the Sunday. That's the window. I'm going to

2010
01:45:24,520 --> 01:45:27,920
Speaker 1: choose each week. Well, September eighth, nineteen seventy four is

2011
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 1: one of the more momentous occasions in the history of

2012
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:38,120
Speaker 1: American of the American legal system. On October eighth, nineteen

2013
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:42,680
Speaker 1: seventy four, just one month after Richard Nixon's resignation, the

2014
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: new President Gerald Ford issued a full and preemptive pardon

2015
01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:49,720
Speaker 1: for all federal crimes that Richard Nixon quote committed or

2016
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 1: may have committed during his presidency. The decision at the

2017
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 1: time was unprecedented, it was controversial, and it was probably

2018
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:03,040
Speaker 1: the defining moment of Ford's very short presidency. My longtime mentor,

2019
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:06,360
Speaker 1: Doug Bailey, May he rest in peace. I don't think

2020
01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 1: he's I worry sometimes if he sees what's happening right now.

2021
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,679
Speaker 1: It's not a he's not at the piece he would

2022
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:19,200
Speaker 1: like to be at. But uh, Doug Bailey was Gerald

2023
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 1: Ford sort of chief, one of his chief media strategists

2024
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 1: in that seventy six campaign. And when you look at

2025
01:46:27,960 --> 01:46:30,759
Speaker 1: all of the baggage that Nixon was carrying into that campaign,

2026
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:37,839
Speaker 1: inflation was a big one, right, stagflation. Being Nixon's vice president,

2027
01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:40,800
Speaker 1: it was the parton it was the part, and they

2028
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 1: came with it. Look, when you only lose by a

2029
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 1: percentage point in the national popular vote, it's pretty easy

2030
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 1: to look at anything and say, oh, jeezs Bob Dole

2031
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 1: hadn't accused the Democratic Party of starting World War Two,

2032
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:56,400
Speaker 1: that would have maybe that was worth a point, maybe,

2033
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:01,559
Speaker 1: but that the the the the issue that was hanging

2034
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:03,560
Speaker 1: over the head. Why did Jimmy Carter end up the

2035
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 1: nominee on somebody else in the Democratic Party because he

2036
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:10,800
Speaker 1: was completely from outside Washington. A man of faith, right,

2037
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:15,280
Speaker 1: So it was Nixon informed the entire political environment at

2038
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:18,200
Speaker 1: the time, and he lost for the part. Now here

2039
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 1: was the case for the part at the time. Ford

2040
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: made the argument for national healing right, our long national nightmare,

2041
01:47:25,439 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: although that was mixing my speeches there, but essentially that

2042
01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:30,599
Speaker 1: was the message. He argued the country needed to move

2043
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 1: beyond Watergate focus on the economic and the Cold War

2044
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 1: challenges that were very real in the seventies. This country

2045
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:40,560
Speaker 1: was very We had really crappy economy, so that was

2046
01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:44,400
Speaker 1: a problem, and there was a real belief that a

2047
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:47,639
Speaker 1: war with Russia with the Soviet Union wasn't an if

2048
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:53,920
Speaker 1: it was simply a win. Another case for it was

2049
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:57,960
Speaker 1: that the there would have been endless trials, and this

2050
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:00,560
Speaker 1: is the political reason for if You're and Ne're the

2051
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:02,639
Speaker 1: Ford wine House, it would have been a complete utter distraction.

2052
01:48:03,400 --> 01:48:06,040
Speaker 1: The prosecution would have dominated his presidency, and it would

2053
01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:11,639
Speaker 1: have probably destabilized our politics. How well did the Trump trials?

2054
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:14,000
Speaker 1: How did the country handle that he wasn't a city

2055
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:21,479
Speaker 1: as a former president. Accepting the pardon meant that Nixon

2056
01:48:21,760 --> 01:48:24,280
Speaker 1: sort of confessed that that was one of the other

2057
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 1: arguments that the pardon worked. By accepting the pardon, Nixon

2058
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:33,559
Speaker 1: implied guilt under Burdick versus the United States in nineteen fifteen,

2059
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:36,160
Speaker 1: which is as if you accept the pardon, that essentially

2060
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 1: you're accepting you committed some crime. Now the question and

2061
01:48:43,000 --> 01:48:45,120
Speaker 1: it's and in two thousand and one he got the

2062
01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:49,120
Speaker 1: Kennedy Family gave him the Profile and Courage Award because

2063
01:48:50,080 --> 01:48:52,800
Speaker 1: it has been interpreted as if that it was politically

2064
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:57,880
Speaker 1: courageous because Ford did it even though knew would hurt

2065
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:01,680
Speaker 1: him politically, but he acted for what he viewed was

2066
01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:05,960
Speaker 1: the greater good. I think you could easily look at

2067
01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:07,479
Speaker 1: it as that he was trying to do what was

2068
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:10,760
Speaker 1: in the best interests of the Ford presidency, which was

2069
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 1: to get all things Nixon behind him. So I think

2070
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: it's sort of I really think it depends where you

2071
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:22,719
Speaker 1: sit on whether it was a courageous argument putting country

2072
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:26,400
Speaker 1: over party, or did you put his presidency over the

2073
01:49:26,479 --> 01:49:30,160
Speaker 1: rule of law as well? Right, But that to me's

2074
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:33,599
Speaker 1: debate points now well, the arguments against the pardon, both

2075
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 1: at the time and today are pretty much the same.

2076
01:49:37,640 --> 01:49:40,880
Speaker 1: The pardon mean you're going to lose accountability, right, that

2077
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,360
Speaker 1: it undermined the principle that no one is above the law,

2078
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: even the president, and that by issuing this pardon, we

2079
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:52,800
Speaker 1: essentially said political leaders are immune from the basic laws

2080
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:56,639
Speaker 1: of prosecutions because of who you know, right, I certainly

2081
01:49:56,640 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 1: think that over time this isn't aged well giving it

2082
01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:03,120
Speaker 1: away where I sort of lean on this, and there

2083
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 1: was a time twenty years ago I might have argued

2084
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,960
Speaker 1: that I might have accepted the historical verdict that said, oh,

2085
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:10,240
Speaker 1: this was the right thing to do with he of

2086
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 1: the country, allowed us to move on. But it's set

2087
01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:22,519
Speaker 1: a dangerous president. And I think now, in hindsight, we

2088
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:26,760
Speaker 1: have decided that trying to get political accountability is too

2089
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 1: hard right now. Look, I do think the founders were

2090
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 1: right that the best place to put a president on

2091
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:38,800
Speaker 1: trial was in the United States Senate, the Democrats, not

2092
01:50:38,880 --> 01:50:42,439
Speaker 1: just the Democrats Republicans obviously in the second one that

2093
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:46,040
Speaker 1: was attempted with Trump twice and he was acquitted in

2094
01:50:46,040 --> 01:50:49,920
Speaker 1: that court twice. Now I could argue that that should

2095
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:54,120
Speaker 1: have probably preempted that when you know, that was the

2096
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:59,120
Speaker 1: where the Founder said a president, an elected president is

2097
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:05,840
Speaker 1: held accountable. And I could make the case in hindsight

2098
01:51:08,080 --> 01:51:11,280
Speaker 1: that all those other independent jurisdictions should have laid down

2099
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:15,680
Speaker 1: their arms if that was the most appropriate place to

2100
01:51:15,760 --> 01:51:17,760
Speaker 1: try to hold them accountable was in the United States.

2101
01:51:21,960 --> 01:51:25,439
Speaker 1: But had Ford never pardoned Nixon and we'd had a

2102
01:51:25,520 --> 01:51:30,240
Speaker 1: trial and he had been convicted and had served time,

2103
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:33,960
Speaker 1: Here's what we don't know, right, there was an assumption

2104
01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:38,760
Speaker 1: that somehow it might have it might have created it

2105
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:42,040
Speaker 1: might have turned them into a political martyr in some cases.

2106
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 1: I guess we're seeing an alternative universe here in Brazil

2107
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:55,240
Speaker 1: right where instead of letting it go with Bolsonaro, the

2108
01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 1: current administration is deciding to go ahead with a prosecution

2109
01:51:58,360 --> 01:52:02,760
Speaker 1: on Bolsnaro and banning him from the ballot and all

2110
01:52:02,800 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 1: those things that come with it. Perhaps that's what could

2111
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:11,280
Speaker 1: have been done with Nixon. Was our system strong enough

2112
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 1: to handle it? Ford's decision implies that he didn't think

2113
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:18,639
Speaker 1: the country was going to be able to handle it.

2114
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:23,280
Speaker 1: But this was one of those cases where if you know,

2115
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:27,240
Speaker 1: and I go back to if you don't trust the voters,

2116
01:52:27,280 --> 01:52:29,639
Speaker 1: and what are we doing with this experiment anyway? Right?

2117
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:32,439
Speaker 1: Like the argument about the constitutional convention, Oh no, if

2118
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:35,639
Speaker 1: you do that, there might be some people who who

2119
01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:38,800
Speaker 1: may have some wacko wacko ideas that they introduced. Yeah,

2120
01:52:39,080 --> 01:52:44,000
Speaker 1: welcome to America. Okay, we we have people on every

2121
01:52:44,080 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 1: single notch of the political spectrum. Of course, there's going

2122
01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:50,760
Speaker 1: to be all sorts of but there's a process, and

2123
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:52,880
Speaker 1: there's there's a process that should make it so that

2124
01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:59,759
Speaker 1: it's fairly mainstream. But the minute you start making decisions

2125
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:04,439
Speaker 1: that take away the ability of the American voter or

2126
01:53:04,479 --> 01:53:10,679
Speaker 1: the American system to do its thing, to essentially usurp

2127
01:53:10,800 --> 01:53:15,080
Speaker 1: the democratic process, which is what Ford did. I think

2128
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 1: it turns out, specially given what we've gone through over

2129
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:24,360
Speaker 1: the last decade, that despite what was over time and

2130
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 1: what's interesting pulling over time right at the time, a

2131
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 1: majority of the country, including according to an exit poll

2132
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:34,559
Speaker 1: in the seventy six presidential race, a majority of the

2133
01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:37,240
Speaker 1: country thought the pardon was wrong. Fifty five percent thought

2134
01:53:37,240 --> 01:53:41,280
Speaker 1: it was a mistake. By the early eighties, it was

2135
01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:44,880
Speaker 1: sort of a split decision. In eighty six, it was

2136
01:53:44,920 --> 01:53:47,520
Speaker 1: the first time any pole ever showed a majority support

2137
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:50,640
Speaker 1: for the part. Part of that may have been sort of,

2138
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, Reagan's popularity helped the country had sort of

2139
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:56,840
Speaker 1: moved sort of into a center right situation. Maybe that

2140
01:53:57,000 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: is why Nixon had sort of re habed himself, had

2141
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:04,519
Speaker 1: become mister foreign dignitary, if you will, writing books, mister

2142
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:07,720
Speaker 1: forn policy advisor. A few months later, Bill Clinton, you know,

2143
01:54:08,760 --> 01:54:11,400
Speaker 1: I remember when Bill Clinton made the trek to visit

2144
01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:18,639
Speaker 1: with former President Nixon before he died. But I think

2145
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 1: when you think about the situation we're in now, where

2146
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:23,599
Speaker 1: it's not clear there's a rule of law where we've

2147
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:26,759
Speaker 1: now had a president, we've had a fear that presidents

2148
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 1: would issue preemptive pardons, and out of fear of a

2149
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 1: president weaponizing the legal system, a president went ahead and

2150
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: issued a preemptive pardon for a bunch of his family members.

2151
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:42,360
Speaker 1: And I'm referring, of course, to Joe Biden. Does any

2152
01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:45,320
Speaker 1: of this happen without the initial decision by Gerald Ford

2153
01:54:45,320 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 1: to pardon Richard Nixon. Some of you may say, obviously

2154
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:55,440
Speaker 1: the best I think the best outcome would have been.

2155
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:57,320
Speaker 1: I don't think the former president of the United States

2156
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 1: should serve time. I might have driven the line on

2157
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:06,200
Speaker 1: that you commute the sentence, but you let you make

2158
01:55:06,280 --> 01:55:10,120
Speaker 1: him go under on trial, you go through that whole process,

2159
01:55:12,600 --> 01:55:17,480
Speaker 1: then you commute the sentence. You see if he's guilty

2160
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:21,880
Speaker 1: or not, he should have his due process. Nixon never

2161
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:28,760
Speaker 1: got his due process. So I think it. You know,

2162
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:35,680
Speaker 1: it's interesting the Ford pardon, for the longest period of time,

2163
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:40,080
Speaker 1: aged very well, and I think when we look back

2164
01:55:40,120 --> 01:55:42,560
Speaker 1: on it, I look back on it and everything I

2165
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:47,960
Speaker 1: did when you it is just this. This was the

2166
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:51,760
Speaker 1: wrong action at the wrong time, in the wrong country.

2167
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:58,680
Speaker 1: You know it just it is if if you believe

2168
01:55:58,720 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 1: in the rule of law, you should have let it

2169
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:08,040
Speaker 1: work its will that everything about our system is supposed

2170
01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 1: to make us different, including that, but instead that pardon. Essentially,

2171
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:18,160
Speaker 1: what we've done is that was the beginning of treating

2172
01:56:18,160 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 1: the presidency like a monarchy where they're kind of untouchable.

2173
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:27,160
Speaker 1: All right, here's your history, lesson. It was September eighth,

2174
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:32,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four that this pardon was issued, and fifty

2175
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 1: one years later, let's just say I think it's now

2176
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:39,800
Speaker 1: a stain unpresidential decision making. Joe Ford was a good man,

2177
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:45,840
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. This was a patriot. They made

2178
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 1: the wrong call. All right, my quick little Before I

2179
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 1: get to a few questions, you gotta understand how I

2180
01:56:54,080 --> 01:56:57,760
Speaker 1: how I viewed college football. I mean, is it is

2181
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:01,320
Speaker 1: for me, It's everything. So I watched every second of

2182
01:57:01,360 --> 01:57:04,520
Speaker 1: the Miami Bethune Cookman game. Here are things that made

2183
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:07,760
Speaker 1: me extraordinarily excited. First of all, they unleash the offense

2184
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 1: a little bit. Carson Beck had zip on his ball.

2185
01:57:11,080 --> 01:57:14,000
Speaker 1: It now makes me think that the Notre Dame game

2186
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:17,400
Speaker 1: plan was very conservative, was very careful, and this is

2187
01:57:17,440 --> 01:57:21,520
Speaker 1: an offense that is very likely to get better as

2188
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:23,960
Speaker 1: they keep adding more things. So let's just say I

2189
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:28,280
Speaker 1: am cautiously enthusiastic. Miami plays at the University of South

2190
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:32,800
Speaker 1: Florida next week, which is just upended poor sunbuped Billy

2191
01:57:33,800 --> 01:57:35,800
Speaker 1: Billy Napier, the coach of the Gators. I just find

2192
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:38,280
Speaker 1: that they'd be the funniest nickname for it. That's one

2193
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:39,560
Speaker 1: of those I'm not going to explain if you know,

2194
01:57:39,640 --> 01:57:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, but sunbout poor Sunbup Billy losing to a

2195
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,200
Speaker 1: group of five team, and South Florida may be the

2196
01:57:45,240 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 1: best group of five team. Maybe not? Is Boise he

2197
01:57:48,120 --> 01:57:51,120
Speaker 1: stayed any good? You know? The thing that I had

2198
01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 1: to remind my own son, right, is lsu any good?

2199
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:57,320
Speaker 1: Clemson was losing to Troy. We don't know who's good

2200
01:57:57,400 --> 01:58:01,720
Speaker 1: or not yet. I think Miami's good. I think Florida

2201
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:06,320
Speaker 1: State's good. I think Ohio State's good. I think Penn

2202
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:09,120
Speaker 1: State's good. Looks like Texas is going to be pretty good.

2203
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:13,520
Speaker 1: What about Alabama? Alabama, man, they they certainly got their

2204
01:58:13,560 --> 01:58:15,800
Speaker 1: act together. And yes, it was you know, against the

2205
01:58:15,840 --> 01:58:19,640
Speaker 1: Little Sisters, you know, and there's Week two has a

2206
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:22,280
Speaker 1: lot of Little Sisters of the Poor games. It's amazing

2207
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:25,880
Speaker 1: how many, how many, how many teams the Little Sisters play.

2208
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:29,000
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite cliches to use in college football.

2209
01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:30,560
Speaker 1: So you're gonna hear me do it a lot.

2210
01:58:31,880 --> 01:58:32,160
Speaker 3: But I.

2211
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 1: The couple other things that jumped out of me from

2212
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:41,760
Speaker 1: over the weekend was I was bummed to see what

2213
01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:46,200
Speaker 1: happened with Duke. Financially, had I had a good week,

2214
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:49,480
Speaker 1: that would have been fantastic, had my my friend Manny Diaz,

2215
01:58:49,480 --> 01:58:52,360
Speaker 1: the head coach of the Duke Blue Devils, had showed up.

2216
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:54,560
Speaker 1: But man, every time I turned around, they were turning

2217
01:58:54,560 --> 01:58:58,160
Speaker 1: the ball over. That is one of the biggest misleading

2218
01:58:58,360 --> 01:59:03,480
Speaker 1: finals of the weekend. Be very careful, assuming you know

2219
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:05,680
Speaker 1: for sure that Illinois is good and is the new

2220
01:59:05,760 --> 01:59:10,800
Speaker 1: Indiana they were Duke gave away so many possessions in

2221
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:15,680
Speaker 1: that game, so be careful, be very, very careful. And

2222
01:59:15,680 --> 01:59:17,920
Speaker 1: then I have to close with the disappointment of my

2223
01:59:18,160 --> 01:59:19,640
Speaker 1: one of my new teams. The way we look at it,

2224
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:21,600
Speaker 1: anytime I have a family connection, it becomes one of

2225
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:23,600
Speaker 1: my teams that I keep an eye on and I

2226
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:25,680
Speaker 1: try to root for as long as they're not playing Miami.

2227
01:59:25,760 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 1: So Florida State is now back in there. That's my wife, Alum.

2228
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 1: I have now family connections to Auburn, So I'm I'm

2229
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:35,760
Speaker 1: trying to be nice and not say bad things about

2230
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:39,720
Speaker 1: coach Freeze. Obviously, I've got I'm paying money over at

2231
01:59:39,760 --> 01:59:44,280
Speaker 1: SMU these days that oh can't blow it to score lead.

2232
01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 1: As I said to my son, SMU has the offense

2233
01:59:47,160 --> 01:59:49,800
Speaker 1: of a playoff team, but the defense of a group

2234
01:59:49,840 --> 01:59:54,360
Speaker 1: of five teams. So that but fear not SMU fans.

2235
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 1: They're spending real money. They're going to be in the

2236
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:00,800
Speaker 1: top tier. They lost a whole whole bunch of great

2237
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:05,720
Speaker 1: defensive linemen to the NFL, so that's why they were

2238
02:00:05,760 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 1: so poorous and it was so easy to run on them.

2239
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:11,000
Speaker 1: They'll fix this, maybe not this season, maybe not in

2240
02:00:11,040 --> 02:00:13,560
Speaker 1: time to be playoff contender, but still don't sleep on

2241
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:17,480
Speaker 1: them because they can score a lot of points and

2242
02:00:17,520 --> 02:00:20,200
Speaker 1: it can be an exciting game. By the way, my

2243
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:23,080
Speaker 1: favorite game might have been the Kansas Missouri game, the

2244
02:00:23,240 --> 02:00:26,839
Speaker 1: old border war. Speaking of history lessons, I would encourage

2245
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:29,920
Speaker 1: you to take a look at the history of that.

2246
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it really was. When they first started playing,

2247
02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:37,440
Speaker 1: blood was really bad. It was Civil War blood, like

2248
02:00:37,720 --> 02:00:41,880
Speaker 1: the actual Civil War type of disputes. Still that was

2249
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:45,160
Speaker 1: still lingering when that rivalry began. So always fun when

2250
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:47,000
Speaker 1: you see a rivalry that hadn't been going on for

2251
02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 1: a while come back like that. That's what makes college

2252
02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:53,240
Speaker 1: football great. That's why I love college football so much,

2253
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:55,560
Speaker 1: and that's why I wish the two major conferences weren't

2254
02:00:55,600 --> 02:00:58,240
Speaker 1: trying to squeeze everybody else of this. All right, I'm

2255
02:00:58,280 --> 02:01:01,400
Speaker 1: off my quick sports box. So with that, let's take

2256
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:05,560
Speaker 1: a few questions. Let's sneak in some ass. Chuck ask Chuck.

2257
02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:12,760
Speaker 1: All right, I've gone all along with my little history

2258
02:01:12,760 --> 02:01:16,840
Speaker 1: thing today, so I'll probably do the lion's share of

2259
02:01:17,080 --> 02:01:20,720
Speaker 1: question answering for the Thursday episode, but let me sneak

2260
02:01:20,720 --> 02:01:24,200
Speaker 1: in a couple here this week. First question comes from

2261
02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:28,960
Speaker 1: overseas Dublin, Ireland. Comes from Danny Oh, Danny Boy from Dublin, Ireland.

2262
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, love the podcast. I don't think

2263
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:33,840
Speaker 1: Putin could handle Trump the way you suggested. He knows

2264
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:36,800
Speaker 1: Trump would spin even a short CeaseFire's proof of his influence.

2265
02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:39,560
Speaker 1: Putin granted a ceasefire because I asked him, and Trump

2266
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:42,760
Speaker 1: would never stop boasting about it. That would quickly become magadogma,

2267
02:01:43,040 --> 02:01:45,560
Speaker 1: which would be excruciating for Putin, worse than any short

2268
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:47,720
Speaker 1: lived credit he'd get for the ceasefire. Thoughts, keep up

2269
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:49,800
Speaker 1: the good work. It's an interesting way to look at it.

2270
02:01:49,840 --> 02:01:53,120
Speaker 1: But here's the other thing Putin has made him look ridiculous. Right,

2271
02:01:53,440 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 1: look at what Putin is doing now with Ukraine. He

2272
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:59,080
Speaker 1: is being more aggressive. He is going after government officials.

2273
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:02,080
Speaker 1: He's gone after europe officials, has gone after places in

2274
02:02:02,280 --> 02:02:05,560
Speaker 1: Ukraine that haven't been touched before. He's doing it with impunity,

2275
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:09,440
Speaker 1: and the United States is sitting here in silence. And

2276
02:02:09,480 --> 02:02:15,320
Speaker 1: that I mean, look, I go back. I think you know.

2277
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:19,720
Speaker 1: I am surprised that Putin didn't try to strengthen Trump

2278
02:02:20,240 --> 02:02:23,040
Speaker 1: the perception of Trump by giving him a short cease fire.

2279
02:02:23,080 --> 02:02:25,240
Speaker 1: That's why I think this is one of those if

2280
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:30,640
Speaker 1: you're the if you're the KGB operative portion of Putin's brain, right,

2281
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:35,160
Speaker 1: you give a little something so that the Europeans are

2282
02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 1: of no choice. But now by totally snubbing, he is

2283
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:45,120
Speaker 1: potentially making it. It's making it harder for Trump to

2284
02:02:45,240 --> 02:02:49,360
Speaker 1: somehow defend Putin and serve as this buffer that he's

2285
02:02:49,400 --> 02:02:52,800
Speaker 1: been serving as against the West. And I think, I mean,

2286
02:02:52,840 --> 02:02:55,880
Speaker 1: you're gonna have, uh, look, give a whole bunch of

2287
02:02:55,880 --> 02:02:59,040
Speaker 1: Republican senators who are spineless about going up against Trump

2288
02:02:59,040 --> 02:03:02,400
Speaker 1: on all these other things, but they are willing to

2289
02:03:02,400 --> 02:03:05,640
Speaker 1: to to to get tough on Russia. And I'm Putin.

2290
02:03:06,480 --> 02:03:09,960
Speaker 1: I think it's inevitable that this is coming. But I

2291
02:03:10,000 --> 02:03:12,280
Speaker 1: do think this has been what what when you just

2292
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 1: look at it as far as you know, people like

2293
02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:16,720
Speaker 1: to say, oh, Putin is such a chess player. It's

2294
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:20,560
Speaker 1: not a chess move. This is sort of dumb checkers.

2295
02:03:21,240 --> 02:03:23,960
Speaker 1: He's just counting on Trump being weak, and right now

2296
02:03:24,000 --> 02:03:27,800
Speaker 1: Trump is extraordinarily weak, and that's a you know, and

2297
02:03:27,840 --> 02:03:33,680
Speaker 1: that has emboldened that weakness is emboldened Putin. Now, if

2298
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:37,680
Speaker 1: you want to talk about political messaging, I don't know

2299
02:03:37,720 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 1: where the where the opposition to this is in the

2300
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:43,320
Speaker 1: in in you know, it's it's it's sort of there.

2301
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:45,480
Speaker 1: But the way to go after Trump on this is

2302
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:49,600
Speaker 1: he is weak. Putin has spit. He is he has

2303
02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:52,600
Speaker 1: done what Jalen Carter did to Dak Prescott. He has

2304
02:03:52,800 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 1: literally spit on Trump's red tie. And Trump's not doing

2305
02:04:00,760 --> 02:04:05,360
Speaker 1: anything about it. Not a thing, all right. Next question

2306
02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:09,080
Speaker 1: Sandro from Italy. Wow, we have a theme today. Hello check.

2307
02:04:09,080 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 1: I'm Sandro, a listener from Italy. The reason Epstein File's

2308
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:14,560
Speaker 1: discussion made me think about public trust in victims. Watching

2309
02:04:14,600 --> 02:04:17,200
Speaker 1: the Depth versus Herd trial at seventeen, I saw how

2310
02:04:17,240 --> 02:04:21,960
Speaker 1: misogynistic attacks and online trolling dehumanized Herd, turning serious abuse

2311
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:24,800
Speaker 1: allegations into jokes and fueling a one sided narrative. I

2312
02:04:24,840 --> 02:04:28,240
Speaker 1: warry Epstein's victims could face similar treatment, deformation, suits, tax

2313
02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:31,000
Speaker 1: and credibility, and a loss of political support. Why do

2314
02:04:31,040 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 1: female victims and even female politicians face this dehumanization while

2315
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:39,360
Speaker 1: Trump has avoided the same level of scrutiny from the media. Things, Well,

2316
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:43,080
Speaker 1: I think he's gotten I don't know if I agree

2317
02:04:43,080 --> 02:04:45,320
Speaker 1: that he hasn't gotten scrutiny from the media I think

2318
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:48,000
Speaker 1: he's gotten scrutiny from the media. That's not the issue.

2319
02:04:48,640 --> 02:04:51,760
Speaker 1: The question is why doesn't it stick, right? Why do

2320
02:04:51,840 --> 02:04:55,600
Speaker 1: these things stick to others but it doesn't to him. Now,

2321
02:04:55,640 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 1: in part he's got all sorts, you know. Part of

2322
02:04:58,400 --> 02:05:01,080
Speaker 1: it is, you know, he's he is missed distraction and

2323
02:05:01,120 --> 02:05:03,360
Speaker 1: everybody was thinking, so this is a distraction for this

2324
02:05:04,080 --> 02:05:07,800
Speaker 1: there's no one thing that's a distraction specifically for another thing.

2325
02:05:08,160 --> 02:05:10,800
Speaker 1: It is, this is how he rolls. He wants he

2326
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:14,600
Speaker 1: wants seven things, seven balls in the air, so that

2327
02:05:14,680 --> 02:05:18,440
Speaker 1: it looks like he's there's always something going on, and

2328
02:05:18,560 --> 02:05:20,720
Speaker 1: you know he can do is and and and it

2329
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:24,240
Speaker 1: has allowed them what what second term Trump is? Guys

2330
02:05:24,280 --> 02:05:29,320
Speaker 1: like to Stephen Miller and others have figured out how

2331
02:05:29,320 --> 02:05:32,960
Speaker 1: to use the fog of Trump, set a fog of war, right,

2332
02:05:33,320 --> 02:05:36,800
Speaker 1: using the fog of Trump to sort of manipulate and

2333
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 1: take advantage of him and get him to do things

2334
02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:44,720
Speaker 1: and extraordinarily aggressive actions like what he's doing right now

2335
02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:50,000
Speaker 1: in Venezuela. But I would argue, I mean, my goodness,

2336
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:55,560
Speaker 1: I mean the singling out Trump's misogynistic behavior and his character,

2337
02:05:56,520 --> 02:06:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean the entire access Hollywood tape. I mean we had,

2338
02:06:00,920 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's the problem sometimes with our politics.

2339
02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:05,800
Speaker 1: You know, you have such a high profile moment like that,

2340
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:12,600
Speaker 1: and it dominates a couple of weeks of the final

2341
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:16,720
Speaker 1: four weeks of that campaign, and then there's this sense

2342
02:06:16,760 --> 02:06:19,080
Speaker 1: so we got by it, so don't ever worry about

2343
02:06:19,160 --> 02:06:22,440
Speaker 1: using it again. Like, there's this weird mindset in political

2344
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:28,200
Speaker 1: campaigns that once you survive, if you get elected, and

2345
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:31,840
Speaker 1: the attacks thrown at you don't stick enough to cause

2346
02:06:31,880 --> 02:06:33,840
Speaker 1: you enough to win that election, to cause you to

2347
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:37,640
Speaker 1: lose that election, and you win for whatever reason, political

2348
02:06:37,640 --> 02:06:39,920
Speaker 1: opponents stop using the same material. They think, well, we

2349
02:06:40,000 --> 02:06:42,920
Speaker 1: can't like And there is an old news thing, right

2350
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:47,200
Speaker 1: that has been effective for corp of politicians in the

2351
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:49,280
Speaker 1: past have been able to say, oh, that's old news.

2352
02:06:50,800 --> 02:06:53,520
Speaker 1: I don't know why we're bringing that up. Well, I

2353
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:55,320
Speaker 1: know why you're bringing it up, because it deserves to

2354
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 1: be brought up. But the point is is that because

2355
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:02,480
Speaker 1: it's it, it's part of trying to figure out what

2356
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:06,600
Speaker 1: makes these politicians tick. But you're right, I mean, this

2357
02:07:06,680 --> 02:07:08,879
Speaker 1: hasn't gotten the same and I think in some ways,

2358
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, those that don't like Trump have their point

2359
02:07:12,360 --> 02:07:15,320
Speaker 1: of view those that do have decided to compartmentalize this.

2360
02:07:16,400 --> 02:07:18,200
Speaker 1: You know, it goes to it's sort of like, why

2361
02:07:18,200 --> 02:07:22,400
Speaker 1: did the character attacks. It's funny they never worked against Clinton,

2362
02:07:22,480 --> 02:07:24,400
Speaker 1: the Democrats when Clinton was in office, but when he

2363
02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:27,879
Speaker 1: was leaving office, the sort of the character stuck, stuck

2364
02:07:27,920 --> 02:07:30,320
Speaker 1: a little bit the gore, and he had to figure

2365
02:07:30,320 --> 02:07:32,720
Speaker 1: out a way to distance himself from it. Right. It

2366
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:34,040
Speaker 1: was like the country was like, we're not going to

2367
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:37,560
Speaker 1: do it again. And that's why I am skeptical of

2368
02:07:37,720 --> 02:07:40,200
Speaker 1: behaving like Trump. That the answer that I think the

2369
02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:44,800
Speaker 1: next president wins because they're they have higher they have

2370
02:07:44,840 --> 02:07:47,720
Speaker 1: a higher they have perceived higher character than Trump. I

2371
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:50,120
Speaker 1: say perceived because you can have people that can hold

2372
02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:53,200
Speaker 1: themselves up as high character and they're they're hiding low

2373
02:07:53,280 --> 02:07:57,640
Speaker 1: character tendencies. But my assumption is the public doesn't want

2374
02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:02,000
Speaker 1: this kind of self enrichment, amoral and immoral behavior out

2375
02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:04,600
Speaker 1: of their chief executives. I just I don't buy that.

2376
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:09,520
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna sneaking one more question here, uh,

2377
02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:11,680
Speaker 1: and this one comes We're going to go stateside here

2378
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:14,480
Speaker 1: Adam in Minneapolis. He said, I love hearing your discussion

2379
02:08:14,520 --> 02:08:17,200
Speaker 1: on the best comedy satirical writers a while back, and

2380
02:08:17,320 --> 02:08:19,760
Speaker 1: was very excited to hear you conclude with Trey Parker

2381
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:22,040
Speaker 1: and Matt Stone in south Park. Curious to hear if

2382
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:25,920
Speaker 1: you have tuned into the current season a spoiler alert.

2383
02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:26,240
Speaker 2: I have.

2384
02:08:27,120 --> 02:08:29,480
Speaker 1: Personally, I had to spit out my drink moment when

2385
02:08:29,480 --> 02:08:31,280
Speaker 1: I saw Trump with the classics that I'm cut out,

2386
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:33,600
Speaker 1: face and voice. I'd love to hear any thoughts on

2387
02:08:33,640 --> 02:08:42,080
Speaker 1: the political salience of the direction this season best Adam, Well,

2388
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:45,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, they're they're to me, they're

2389
02:08:46,000 --> 02:08:51,120
Speaker 1: calling card over the last decade has really been on

2390
02:08:51,400 --> 02:08:58,360
Speaker 1: trying to sort of call out cultural hypocrisy from both

2391
02:08:58,400 --> 02:09:02,840
Speaker 1: from the woke left and the grievance right, and and

2392
02:09:03,440 --> 02:09:08,280
Speaker 1: they've so effectively, I think culturally still even in these episodes,

2393
02:09:09,120 --> 02:09:12,920
Speaker 1: I think have mocked both quite well. You know, it's funny,

2394
02:09:13,000 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: I I what I've noticed is that the coverage of

2395
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 1: each South Park episode is almost done exclusively through the

2396
02:09:20,160 --> 02:09:24,880
Speaker 1: prism of Trump. But I thought I thought the uh

2397
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:32,640
Speaker 1: I thought the last episode or no, I think it

2398
02:09:32,640 --> 02:09:34,880
Speaker 1: was two episodes ago, the one that featured Tim Cook

2399
02:09:37,040 --> 02:09:39,040
Speaker 1: was as much about the tech world and the sort

2400
02:09:39,080 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 1: of the bowing down Anyway, the point is is that

2401
02:09:41,120 --> 02:09:44,920
Speaker 1: I think, what's I again, They're they're not They're not

2402
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:50,400
Speaker 1: late leaving anything untouched here at all. But it is

2403
02:09:50,440 --> 02:09:53,480
Speaker 1: a direct There's no doubt this is a direct response

2404
02:09:53,560 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 1: to sort of what I would say is almost maga

2405
02:09:57,120 --> 02:10:02,760
Speaker 1: and and sort of the a morality of Trump. But look,

2406
02:10:02,800 --> 02:10:07,280
Speaker 1: it's been let's just say, they've done things that I

2407
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:10,480
Speaker 1: can't even feel like I can repeat here. Obviously I could.

2408
02:10:10,520 --> 02:10:13,320
Speaker 1: There's you know, this is the world of independent media.

2409
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:17,400
Speaker 1: We can do what we want, but it feels next

2410
02:10:17,720 --> 02:10:21,840
Speaker 1: level over the top. But then I could also argue

2411
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:23,800
Speaker 1: that in this day and age, in order for anything

2412
02:10:23,840 --> 02:10:28,640
Speaker 1: to break through the algorithms and break through in some ways,

2413
02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:32,800
Speaker 1: do you have to go that far. So there's there's

2414
02:10:32,800 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 1: a there's a part of me that you know we

2415
02:10:35,440 --> 02:10:39,280
Speaker 1: have really I don't think we have fully appreciated how

2416
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:43,400
Speaker 1: much we've sort of gotten rid of every guardrail possible

2417
02:10:43,440 --> 02:10:47,720
Speaker 1: when it comes to sort of political satire and commentary.

2418
02:10:48,440 --> 02:10:52,000
Speaker 1: There's pretty much there's no line, there's no guardrail, there's

2419
02:10:52,000 --> 02:10:58,560
Speaker 1: no norm, and some of it is funny, but we're

2420
02:10:58,600 --> 02:11:01,840
Speaker 1: actually doing what I would say is satire, because the

2421
02:11:01,880 --> 02:11:04,560
Speaker 1: best satire should make you a little uncomfortable before it

2422
02:11:04,600 --> 02:11:08,920
Speaker 1: makes you laugh. And I think this season South Park

2423
02:11:09,520 --> 02:11:14,440
Speaker 1: is making you a little bit uncomfortable just before you laugh.

2424
02:11:15,720 --> 02:11:19,840
Speaker 1: All right with that, I think we can put a

2425
02:11:19,880 --> 02:11:22,840
Speaker 1: pin in this episode. Appreciate you out there. We've been

2426
02:11:23,000 --> 02:11:27,040
Speaker 1: by the way, response has been terrific, and people are

2427
02:11:27,080 --> 02:11:31,480
Speaker 1: out of their August duldrums. That's exciting. I'm having the

2428
02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying this, enjoying this medium, appreciate the opportunity it

2429
02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:40,680
Speaker 1: gives me to sort of complete whole thoughts and to

2430
02:11:40,760 --> 02:11:43,360
Speaker 1: sort of do, as Trump likes to say, my own

2431
02:11:43,400 --> 02:11:46,120
Speaker 1: little weave about sort of how I'm watching the current

2432
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:50,800
Speaker 1: American political system as it potentially unravels in front of

2433
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:55,320
Speaker 1: our very eyes. And so I feel like chronicling this

2434
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:57,960
Speaker 1: almost on a daily basis is necessary as we figure

2435
02:11:57,960 --> 02:12:01,520
Speaker 1: out how we can navigate our out of this mess.

2436
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:05,280
Speaker 1: And so with that, I will upload again in approximately

2437
02:12:05,320 --> 02:12:06,000
Speaker 1: forty eight hours