WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 250 0:00:00.910 --> 0:00:02.910 Call zone media. 0:00:03.350 --> 0:00:03.990 Hey, everybody. 0:00:04.210 --> 0:00:06.080 Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know 0:00:06.100 --> 0:00:09.860 this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:00:09.900 --> 0:00:13.680 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:00:13.740 --> 0:00:17.000 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.330 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:00:19.370 --> 0:00:21.370 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going 0:00:21.390 --> 0:00:23.430 to be nothing new here for you, but you can 0:00:23.450 --> 0:00:24.390 make your own decisions. 0:00:29.050 --> 0:00:32.019 Hello and welcome to the show. It's It Could Happen 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.900 Here today. I am James and I'm very lucky to 0:00:34.940 --> 0:00:36.620 be joined by Margaret Kiljoy. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:37.320 Hi, Margaret. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:37.919 Hello. 0:00:38.979 --> 0:00:42.180 What a good day to talk about good stuff. It's 0:00:42.220 --> 0:00:42.940 good stuff, right? 0:00:43.340 --> 0:00:46.640 Unfortunately, Margaret, I hate to break it to you. It's 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.559 the government declaring left groups terrorists again. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.300 Oh, that seems bad. 0:00:52.860 --> 0:00:55.580 Yeah, it does seem bad, especially in this case, like 0:00:55.620 --> 0:00:59.980 it's an attempt to destroy drive autonomous left organizing off 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.620 the internet. And so if people are not familiar, we 0:01:03.660 --> 0:01:09.990 are talking today about Autistici Inventati. There's a forward slash 0:01:10.610 --> 0:01:14.589 in between those two groups because on the 26th of August, 0:01:15.030 --> 0:01:17.590 the Office of Foreign Assets Control added them to a 0:01:17.630 --> 0:01:23.039 list of specially designated global terrorist groups because it alleged 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.380 that A slash I services were designed to facilitate violent attacks. 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:28.760 I think I'm going to refer to them as A 0:01:29.020 --> 0:01:31.520 slash I just for brevity and also because I don't 0:01:31.540 --> 0:01:34.060 want to use AI because sadly that's already taken. 0:01:34.550 --> 0:01:36.120 That's what I was thinking too, is I'm either going 0:01:36.190 --> 0:01:39.100 to call them Autostiti or A slash I. 0:01:39.830 --> 0:01:40.090 Yeah. 0:01:40.410 --> 0:01:42.390 So we can go through a little bit of blow 0:01:42.430 --> 0:01:44.330 by blow of what's happened since then in a minute. 0:01:44.350 --> 0:01:46.690 But I first thought, Margaret, perhaps you could explain a 0:01:46.690 --> 0:01:49.730 little bit about the role this organization played. Why does 0:01:49.790 --> 0:01:52.090 it have a forward slash in its name? When did 0:01:52.130 --> 0:01:53.730 it come about and where's it from? 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:54.810 Yeah. 0:01:55.390 --> 0:01:57.800 So there is a group that is made up of 0:01:57.860 --> 0:02:00.800 two groups. And the name of the single group is 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.860 Autastici slash Inventati. And you might be able to guess 0:02:05.340 --> 0:02:08.760 that the two groups that make it up are Autastici 0:02:09.300 --> 0:02:13.600 and Inventati. They've been around since 2001. I want to 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.220 say March 2001. If I was at the right place 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:17.490 in my own script, I would be able to tell 0:02:17.500 --> 0:02:21.110 you that for certain. And they came about during the 0:02:21.190 --> 0:02:23.810 ultra-globalization movement, which is something that I've talked about a 0:02:23.830 --> 0:02:26.630 bit on my show, Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. 0:02:27.030 --> 0:02:29.149 And it is one of the things that, I mean, 0:02:29.169 --> 0:02:30.750 if you were there, you know what I'm talking about. 0:02:31.250 --> 0:02:36.280 But basically, there was a massive movement against the stripping 0:02:36.310 --> 0:02:40.060 of resources from the developing world by the developed world. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.440 There was basically a massive attempt by people all over 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.900 the world, kind of spurred on by the Zapatistas and 0:02:45.940 --> 0:02:50.859 Chiapas to get everyone together. to say, stop using free 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.180 trade agreements to take all of the wealth of the 0:02:54.220 --> 0:02:56.440 global South and give it to the global North. It's 0:02:56.460 --> 0:02:58.420 a really important idea to wrap your head around, but 0:02:58.500 --> 0:03:00.880 complicated right now in this era where tariffs are the 0:03:00.930 --> 0:03:04.650 bad thing and free trade is the lesser evil, right? 0:03:05.150 --> 0:03:08.350 We weren't fighting against, this is the movement that I 0:03:08.389 --> 0:03:12.490 came up in. We weren't fighting specifically against free trade, 0:03:12.530 --> 0:03:14.810 although we were fighting against the free trade agreements, so 0:03:14.830 --> 0:03:18.060 much as specifically that we were fighting for Fair trade. 0:03:18.180 --> 0:03:21.619 And we were fighting for people getting paid decently and 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:23.960 stopping the economic extraction of the world. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.120 Fair trade's a proper noun, right? But it's also a 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.700 concept and they differ. And that's all I think I 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:30.440 need to say about it. 0:03:30.970 --> 0:03:31.410 Yeah. 0:03:32.290 --> 0:03:34.810 And so during this period, activists from all over the 0:03:34.870 --> 0:03:38.330 world created all of these massive protests, bringing people all 0:03:38.390 --> 0:03:41.870 together and creating horizontal decision-making structures and doing all this 0:03:41.890 --> 0:03:44.430 important work. And one of the things that came of that, 0:03:44.810 --> 0:03:48.390 for better and for worse, is the concept of social media. 0:03:48.430 --> 0:03:51.690 We can trace it directly back to the hacking groups 0:03:52.270 --> 0:03:56.790 of this era. Community journalists, citizen journalists would go out 0:03:56.930 --> 0:04:00.390 and work with, especially something called Indymedia. And they would 0:04:00.430 --> 0:04:03.750 go out and they would film what was happening. And 0:04:03.770 --> 0:04:06.930 so there was this international network of people who created 0:04:06.970 --> 0:04:11.790 a structure called Indymedia, where Indy has like I-N-D-Y media, right? And- 0:04:12.470 --> 0:04:15.930 be able to report on what was happening in their regions, 0:04:15.990 --> 0:04:18.270 but have it all networked together. And it kind of 0:04:18.420 --> 0:04:22.660 created microblogging, which is what created Twitter. And there's actually 0:04:22.700 --> 0:04:26.179 like direct lineages with some of the people. So sorry 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.160 about that, that we did that. I was a part 0:04:29.180 --> 0:04:32.680 of indie media for a long time. And a group 0:04:33.140 --> 0:04:36.440 in Italy, two groups in Italy, among many others, came 0:04:36.500 --> 0:04:39.380 together to do indie media work in Italy. Italy was 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.660 an important part of the ultra-globalization movement. Unfortunately, it's where 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.180 we first saw police kill a protester, RIP Carlo Giuliani. 0:04:48.140 --> 0:04:49.580 I was like, oh, I'm going to really quick read 0:04:49.620 --> 0:04:52.500 their own history that they set. But what they did 0:04:52.630 --> 0:04:54.970 is that 10 years, like 2011 or so, they put 0:04:55.010 --> 0:04:58.250 out 140 page book that describes the like oral history 0:04:58.290 --> 0:05:00.510 of the creation of their project. And so I have 0:05:00.570 --> 0:05:03.049 not fully read everything in this yet. But in general, 0:05:03.430 --> 0:05:06.800 Autostici is from Milan and it was started by basically 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:07.600 like cyberpunks. 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.480 Although one of the people was like, I'm not a cyberpunk, 0:05:10.020 --> 0:05:11.020 you know? Of course. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.660 But literally, it was coming out of groups that would 0:05:13.860 --> 0:05:17.290 use concepts from William Gibson's books intentionally. It was a 0:05:17.350 --> 0:05:22.380 consciously cyberpunk movement. And then you also had, in Florence. 0:05:22.970 --> 0:05:23.330 or. 0:05:23.190 --> 0:05:26.620 In Firenze, if you're wanting to pretend like you've been there, 0:05:27.300 --> 0:05:31.400 you have a group called Inventati. Now, Autistici, you're like, 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.000 that sounds like the word autistic. It means autistic. It's 0:05:34.020 --> 0:05:37.750 the autistics, right? And what their concept was, I don't know, 0:05:37.930 --> 0:05:40.690 I'm not holding this up to today's lens of how 0:05:40.730 --> 0:05:43.370 we want to talk about this neurodivergence. What they were 0:05:43.410 --> 0:05:46.570 saying is we're all interacting with computers instead of each other. 0:05:47.210 --> 0:05:49.479 So that's what we're going to call ourselves are the autistics. 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:56.530 Inventati is, was the self-invented. And these were the citizen journalists. 0:05:56.650 --> 0:06:01.270 And they came out of a group of basically protest 0:06:01.310 --> 0:06:07.020 journalists that were mostly students in Fidenze, in Florence. So 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.279 they came together and they formed a thing. Why does 0:06:09.300 --> 0:06:13.540 this matter 25 years later? Well, on some level, That's 0:06:13.580 --> 0:06:16.740 a good question. It kind of shouldn't. The thing is 0:06:16.940 --> 0:06:20.330 that these groups, when we call them hackers and hacktivists, 0:06:20.710 --> 0:06:22.469 actually one of the things that they talk about is 0:06:22.490 --> 0:06:27.299 that they basically do the reproductive labor thing. of social movements. 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.010 They're not out there hacking places. They are creating infrastructure 0:06:32.050 --> 0:06:36.110 for people to talk to each other in non-corporate ways. Like, 0:06:36.290 --> 0:06:39.050 because the corporate environment owns so much of the internet 0:06:39.430 --> 0:06:41.409 and they have from the beginning, they are so. 0:06:41.310 --> 0:06:43.120 Much older than all of their enemies, right? 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:48.920 2001 is ancient in internet terms. And they created ways 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.440 to have websites called NoBlogs, which is a WordPress platform. 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.560 They created email servers and they created listservs, right? And 0:06:56.580 --> 0:06:59.340 they kept doing it. And every now and then, the 0:06:59.580 --> 0:07:02.200 government would fight them. They'd say, someone that you are 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.370 giving a blog to has done something bad. And every 0:07:05.390 --> 0:07:08.070 single time, they would take it to court. They're not 0:07:08.690 --> 0:07:13.510 underground people. This isn't a shadowy organization. They have names 0:07:13.630 --> 0:07:17.040 and legal... This is a legal thing that they... pay 0:07:17.100 --> 0:07:20.600 for internet services, and host website servers. So they are 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.050 trying to have a free internet. And that is what 0:07:24.090 --> 0:07:26.870 the government is coming for. So when they are being 0:07:26.890 --> 0:07:31.370 designated this way, they hosted approximately 10,000 blogs on the 0:07:31.430 --> 0:07:34.790 NoBlogs platform. And that is from people all over the world. 0:07:35.170 --> 0:07:38.330 So they are basically stripping away the platform by which 0:07:38.330 --> 0:07:44.920 10,000 people or groups do their communication and do their publication. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.020 That's what I got. Yeah, I think that's a really good... 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.400 I'll just give some example. There were groups in Myanmar 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.320 who used no blogs, for instance, right? Like, it's very 0:07:52.420 --> 0:07:56.640 easy to see this from an American lens because it's 0:07:56.660 --> 0:07:58.760 the American government doing it, or the United States government, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.880 I should say, right? America, two continents. United States, one country. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:02.220 Yeah. 0:08:02.580 --> 0:08:06.550 Lake America, not a thing. But let's... look at it 0:08:06.590 --> 0:08:08.670 a bit more broadly right because like you and i 0:08:08.710 --> 0:08:10.830 can remember this era of the internet because we're old 0:08:10.910 --> 0:08:14.370 now the free internet when the internet was cool and 0:08:14.430 --> 0:08:16.250 we were really hoping that it would be a liberatory 0:08:16.310 --> 0:08:18.190 force for humanity. 0:08:17.710 --> 0:08:20.380 Right yeah we gave it a good shot. 0:08:20.500 --> 0:08:22.840 We gave it a fucking try like people may not 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.320 remember the arab spring right but like there was this 0:08:25.380 --> 0:08:28.680 idea that like twitter i think it's rather myopic to 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.200 say that twitter gave us arab spring right like like 0:08:31.710 --> 0:08:34.250 Decades of oppression and people wanting to live free and 0:08:34.470 --> 0:08:37.410 bravely standing up against state violence gave us the Arab Spring. 0:08:37.790 --> 0:08:41.429 But Twitter played a part in people communicating. But before 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:46.520 we had that, we had things like Hushmail is another example. 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:52.620 There was an independent internet structure that wasn't always explicitly 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.620 anything politically apart from anti-corporate. Let's take a break here 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:10.930 and come back after we've heard some advertisers. All right, 0:09:10.970 --> 0:09:14.610 we are back. The internet is dead. Let's talk about 0:09:15.090 --> 0:09:23.010 what an SDGTO is, Specially Designated Global Terrorist Organization. These 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.140 come from an executive order. I think it's 13324 I've 0:09:26.179 --> 0:09:30.640 written down here. It was signed by George W. Bush 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:35.560 in the wake of September the 11th, right? September the 11th, 2001. 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.750 If you're wondering if I'm talking about the Catalan National Day, no, 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.489 I'm not. I'm talking about the attacks on the World 0:09:41.510 --> 0:09:42.390 Trade Center, yeah. 0:09:42.730 --> 0:09:43.390 Oh, interesting. 0:09:43.410 --> 0:09:44.530 Oh, okay, okay. 0:09:44.610 --> 0:09:44.810 Yeah. 0:09:45.110 --> 0:09:46.929 Have you heard that Trump is claiming that he was 0:09:46.950 --> 0:09:49.069 at Ground Zero and got dragged away by firemen? 0:09:49.330 --> 0:09:52.080 No, that's a new one for me. It's a complete lie. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:53.600 He was further away from. 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:54.479 Ground Zero than I was. 0:09:54.860 --> 0:09:55.000 Yeah. 0:09:55.580 --> 0:09:57.690 I looked it up before we started recording. I was 0:09:57.750 --> 0:10:00.000 much closer to ground zero than he was. Perfect. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:01.140 Anyway, whatever. 0:10:01.620 --> 0:10:01.880 Great. 0:10:02.100 --> 0:10:02.400 Okay. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:03.220 Yeah. 0:10:03.260 --> 0:10:04.300 Well, what a guy. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:04.660 Yeah. 0:10:05.890 --> 0:10:08.829 Again, I don't want to harp on being old or whatever, 0:10:09.170 --> 0:10:12.929 but the world changed after September the 11th, 2001 in 0:10:13.010 --> 0:10:15.929 so many ways. One of them was the United States' 0:10:16.510 --> 0:10:22.970 pursuit of these new anti-terrorism laws and these new anti-terrorism sanctions. 0:10:23.710 --> 0:10:26.929 An SDGTO is a sanction. There were a series of 0:10:26.970 --> 0:10:28.750 executive orders from between 2001 and 2003 which kind of 0:10:28.770 --> 0:10:30.910 amended how they did this. I guess the first example 0:10:30.929 --> 0:10:39.700 of of how the SDGTO sanction was supposed to work 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.240 would be the Holy Land Foundation, right? 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.090 Yeah, it's the largest Muslim charity in the United States. 0:10:44.450 --> 0:10:48.910 It was at one point, yeah, a huge Palestinian-American charity. 0:10:48.970 --> 0:10:51.990 Its offices were raided, its assets were seized, and it 0:10:52.010 --> 0:10:56.570 was closed. Previously, it collected, we're talking... tens of millions 0:10:56.610 --> 0:10:59.570 of dollars here, or more than $ 10 million, I can 0:10:59.610 --> 0:11:03.270 pretty confidently say. This is a big organization, right? And 0:11:03.490 --> 0:11:08.630 what the SDGTO sanction does is it can list individuals 0:11:09.030 --> 0:11:13.320 or organizations, but it effectively makes them sanctioned so that 0:11:13.340 --> 0:11:16.720 people cannot transfer assets to them, right? So that makes 0:11:16.740 --> 0:11:19.380 them more or less unbankable. And that is what, as 0:11:19.420 --> 0:11:22.179 we'll see, has happened to A slash I, right? It 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.020 is a different designation. This is important from an FTO. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.150 FTO is a foreign terrorist organization, right? The difference there 0:11:29.250 --> 0:11:34.050 is that this is an economic sanction, whereas an FTO 0:11:34.130 --> 0:11:37.860 also contains the State Department itself, as well as the Treasury. 0:11:38.530 --> 0:11:40.440 Right, like they're probably not going to drone strike people 0:11:40.500 --> 0:11:40.860 over this. 0:11:41.300 --> 0:11:44.780 Yeah, exactly. An FTO designation does a couple of things, 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:46.420 but one of them, as you say, is it gives 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:51.400 them that, like, pretext for more physical, kinetic, if you 0:11:51.420 --> 0:11:54.060 want to use the term that people in the industry use, violence, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.390 as opposed to economic attacks like we're seeing here. The 0:11:58.510 --> 0:12:03.350 FTO is the highest level of designation. With it comes 0:12:03.490 --> 0:12:07.170 a series of things that become illegal for any US individual, 0:12:07.710 --> 0:12:11.320 US person, or indeed anyone globally who is involved with 0:12:11.340 --> 0:12:17.819 that organization. In practice, what this does is it removes 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.439 their ability to interact with the global banking system, right? 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.319 And being an FTO does too, right? The FTO designations 0:12:25.340 --> 0:12:29.569 that we saw earlier in the Trump administration that impacted Greek, German, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.280 was there also an Italian organization in those? I don't 0:12:32.450 --> 0:12:32.950 think so. 0:12:32.970 --> 0:12:33.609 I don't know. 0:12:33.710 --> 0:12:36.490 Certainly, it has made it very hard for a number 0:12:36.510 --> 0:12:39.750 of organizations in Germany to have bank accounts, period. 0:12:40.110 --> 0:12:40.350 Yeah. 0:12:40.809 --> 0:12:44.130 And what happened was no one tells you, apparently, No 0:12:44.170 --> 0:12:45.670 one gives you a call to be like, hey, just 0:12:45.700 --> 0:12:49.420 so you know, you're a specially designated global terrorist now. 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:51.040 They learned that this. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.160 Was coming because of Marco Rubio tweets. 0:12:53.740 --> 0:12:56.679 It had already happened. And then immediately their PayPal gets 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.520 shut down. There's some irony to this because theoretically PayPal 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.570 was created in order to kind of be a libertarian 0:13:02.610 --> 0:13:05.349 way of getting past government interference with money or whatever. 0:13:05.710 --> 0:13:07.930 But that's probably long gone and probably was never good in. 0:13:07.910 --> 0:13:11.770 The first place. Their PayPal got shut down immediately. There's 0:13:11.809 --> 0:13:12.470 no reason. 0:13:12.910 --> 0:13:15.150 why their PayPal had to be shut down immediately. Because 0:13:15.290 --> 0:13:19.809 in this designation, there was a specific exemption given for 0:13:19.950 --> 0:13:23.140 a month. There was a 30-day or one month to 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.199 September 25th. Hey, if you have business dealings with this group, 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:32.100 you have until September 25th to stop. Now, theoretically, this 0:13:32.300 --> 0:13:37.670 only applies to United States people, right? There is no method. Well, 0:13:37.710 --> 0:13:40.510 there is a method. There's no legal method by which 0:13:40.610 --> 0:13:47.490 this necessarily applies. more broadly, but pretty much immediately Banca Etica, 0:13:47.850 --> 0:13:51.050 which I am not certain, I believe means ethical bank, 0:13:51.590 --> 0:13:55.390 is a specific cooperative bank. It is an independent cooperative 0:13:55.429 --> 0:13:58.890 bank working for the highest interest, that of everybody, including yours, 0:13:59.290 --> 0:14:02.370 according to their website. And the bank that is basically 0:14:02.429 --> 0:14:07.170 meant to be the less evil bank of Italy shut 0:14:07.210 --> 0:14:11.030 them down pretty much immediately. And they released as of 0:14:11.070 --> 0:14:15.160 this morning, as of recording, Tuesday, September 8th, Autistici slash 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.980 Inventati released a statement saying like, this is what happened. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:20.020 They shut down our bank. 0:14:21.260 --> 0:14:24.740 Because after they received this order, after they got told 0:14:24.780 --> 0:14:28.680 that they are this designation, and they had to tell 0:14:28.740 --> 0:14:32.650 they're more than 10,000, not customers, because they're all volunteers 0:14:32.790 --> 0:14:34.810 and no one had to pay to use their services. 0:14:35.350 --> 0:14:38.790 They had to tell all those people like, hey, this 0:14:38.850 --> 0:14:42.250 is what's happening. And when it first happened, they came 0:14:42.330 --> 0:14:43.510 out and they were like, look, we're going to fight 0:14:43.550 --> 0:14:47.750 this because they have fought in court all the time, right? 0:14:48.010 --> 0:14:50.290 But the thing that is important and different in this 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:51.360 particular situation. 0:14:51.860 --> 0:14:55.320 They have no legal recourse. They've been accused of. 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.700 Kind of similar things like, hey, you hosted a website 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.860 that included a manifesto about some people who did some crimes, right? 0:15:02.980 --> 0:15:04.740 Is a thing that gets used against them a lot. 0:15:05.330 --> 0:15:06.710 And they go to court and they're like, this is 0:15:07.170 --> 0:15:07.630 who we are. 0:15:07.650 --> 0:15:08.270 This is what we do. 0:15:08.310 --> 0:15:10.770 We don't have fucking anything to do with the people 0:15:10.790 --> 0:15:13.840 who we publish or whatever. That is not an option 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.100 in this situation. And so they were waiting for their 0:15:16.140 --> 0:15:20.000 bank to give them a chance to fight, to argue. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.440 And their bank just didn't because of basically a fear 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.660 of secondary sanctions. So no EU court, no Italian court 0:15:28.900 --> 0:15:31.200 has accused them of any wrongdoings. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.000 The intention is not to pin a crime on them 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.080 so much as it is to remove this infrastructure from 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:38.020 the internet, right? 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:38.220 Yes. 0:15:38.820 --> 0:15:41.400 So like what the State Department is alleging in its 0:15:41.460 --> 0:15:44.330 press release here is that, I'm quoting here, it provides 0:15:44.350 --> 0:15:47.690 encrypted tools and services to numerous violent far-left extremist groups 0:15:47.770 --> 0:15:50.650 operating in the United States and around the world. And 0:15:50.690 --> 0:15:53.030 then they say that groups have relied on the collective's 0:15:53.070 --> 0:15:56.650 digital infrastructure to plot or incite violent attacks, recruit others 0:15:56.690 --> 0:16:00.060 to engage in criminal activity, and publish official communiques by 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.200 US-designated FTOs, and disseminate maps of critical infrastructure. They go 0:16:04.220 --> 0:16:06.960 on for other stuff, right? But they are not alleging, 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.620 the State Department itself is not alleging that A-slash-I themselves 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:15.250 did anything. It's that they hosted a platform where people 0:16:15.290 --> 0:16:18.590 who they are saying did terrorist things could either recruit 0:16:18.610 --> 0:16:21.450 to do those or talk about them or claim credibility 0:16:21.470 --> 0:16:25.250 for them. In amongst the examples it gives, right, sabotage 0:16:25.270 --> 0:16:28.720 of the Trans-Alpine Pipeline that's in Europe, They talk about 0:16:28.780 --> 0:16:32.080 Jane's Revenge in the United States, which it calls a 0:16:32.700 --> 0:16:36.470 violent far left extremists. It talks about Stop Cop City. 0:16:36.990 --> 0:16:42.190 They list a number of like listed FTOs, right? But 0:16:42.210 --> 0:16:45.220 they're saying a far left extremist group claiming to be 0:16:45.260 --> 0:16:48.440 a tool for global violence. militants relies on ai so 0:16:48.460 --> 0:16:52.440 they're not saying the ftos do directly they're saying a 0:16:52.500 --> 0:16:56.060 group claiming to be a tool for those people relies 0:16:56.140 --> 0:16:59.280 on the a slash i infrastructure so it's it's always 0:16:59.330 --> 0:17:03.090 i guess like one tier removed from them right but 0:17:03.150 --> 0:17:06.109 i think that that in a sense is what the 0:17:06.470 --> 0:17:09.920 point is here right Back in the day, they used 0:17:09.980 --> 0:17:13.660 to smash printing presses, right? The state. Yeah, the state 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.000 would smash printing presses, the cops would smash printing presses, 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:17.300 so would bosses, right? 0:17:17.340 --> 0:17:17.510 Yeah. 0:17:18.140 --> 0:17:20.510 When I look at my own research, right, when I'm 0:17:20.609 --> 0:17:24.690 doing archival research and I'm writing about, specifically about Spanish anarchism, 0:17:24.869 --> 0:17:29.030 about union organizing, my first research project was on like 0:17:29.070 --> 0:17:32.410 the Catalan Builders Union. You see this, right? Like they're 0:17:32.450 --> 0:17:36.070 putting out publications and their means of communication is being 0:17:36.109 --> 0:17:37.210 destroyed by the state. 0:17:37.550 --> 0:17:39.570 And it's, It's one of the most essential parts of 0:17:39.630 --> 0:17:44.090 any resistance movement, right? Is the ability to communicate. I 0:17:44.130 --> 0:17:48.950 remember reading a biography, an autobiography by someone who survived 0:17:49.050 --> 0:17:53.379 the Warsaw Ghetto, right? And the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. And 0:17:53.540 --> 0:17:57.420 there were three things that the Warsaw Ghetto fighters were 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.399 smuggling in from outside. The three things that mattered, food, 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:07.010 small arms, and printing presses. Like, the ability to have 0:18:07.130 --> 0:18:10.149 printing presses, we see it over and over again as 0:18:10.190 --> 0:18:13.320 an essential part, and not just of resistance movements, but 0:18:13.340 --> 0:18:17.740 also social movements, and also just free exchange of cultural ideas. 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.140 Yeah, like, I'm reading a lot about the Mexican Revolution 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.560 right now, and I'm thinking about, like, magazines like Vespa, right, 0:18:23.580 --> 0:18:27.990 which was an anarcho-feminist magazine. Even Flores Magón was a journalist, right? Like, 0:18:28.330 --> 0:18:32.350 he came to St. Louis to try and continue writing safely. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.919 You can specifically look at Porfirio Diaz if you want 0:18:34.940 --> 0:18:39.020 to look at the state attacking people's ability in that 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.280 instance to communicate freely with each other. The reason this 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.420 is important is because it's one of the last parts 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.680 of that old internet. I'll give the example of, and 0:18:51.740 --> 0:18:55.700 I know there are no blogs, pages about Kurdistan as well, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:00.300 but if I give the example of Myanmar, everybody in 0:19:00.340 --> 0:19:03.929 Myanmar who talked to them apart from people who are 0:19:03.990 --> 0:19:06.330 really part of the spring revolution who will talk to 0:19:06.350 --> 0:19:09.530 me on Signal, I have to use Facebook, right? Because 0:19:09.609 --> 0:19:13.550 Facebook is the internet there. Because in some cases, you 0:19:13.590 --> 0:19:15.790 don't pay for data if that data is going through 0:19:15.810 --> 0:19:18.170 the Facebook app, but you do pay for data if 0:19:18.190 --> 0:19:21.370 you're using it through a browser or an email client, right? 0:19:21.670 --> 0:19:25.900 So Facebook is synonymous with the internet. Therefore, Facebook controls 0:19:25.940 --> 0:19:28.379 the internet. And so we get to this situation with 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:32.100 the beginning of the genocide against the Rohingya people where... 0:19:32.230 --> 0:19:35.670 The military is running a massive bot network and we 0:19:35.770 --> 0:19:40.100 have NLD government officials trying to call Facebook being like, yo, 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.940 like a genocide is actively beginning and you are complicit 0:19:44.020 --> 0:19:47.810 in it. And Facebook not responding until they shut it down. 0:19:48.310 --> 0:19:49.770 They shut down Facebook entirely, right? 0:19:49.790 --> 0:19:49.869 Yeah. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.139 And then in doing so, basically disconnect a large portion 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.649 of their population from the world. And like the people 0:19:57.710 --> 0:20:01.649 who had the tools to stop that genocide were in 0:20:02.150 --> 0:20:05.470 offices in California. And I think they had one Burmese 0:20:05.510 --> 0:20:08.690 language content moderator. What I'm getting at here is that like, 0:20:09.550 --> 0:20:14.670 The corporate internet is not equipped. It just doesn't care 0:20:14.910 --> 0:20:18.650 about the consequences of lots of things, including misinformation, right? 0:20:19.369 --> 0:20:24.939 And at least the autonomous internet, people could speak freely, right? 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.600 They weren't controlled by the policies of Facebook. They weren't 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.639 controlled by the policies of Google. Yes, what the government 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.420 is alleging is part of the consequences of that free 0:20:33.500 --> 0:20:36.340 speech were that they are saying that people who were 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.889 doing violence were organizing on it. Free speech is also 0:20:39.950 --> 0:20:43.070 like to just go like super liberal American, right? Like 0:20:43.090 --> 0:20:44.929 it is a very first amendment that they made to 0:20:44.950 --> 0:20:49.510 the constitution. The printing press and pamphlets were integral to 0:20:49.990 --> 0:20:52.590 the revolution here, right? Like if you just want to 0:20:52.650 --> 0:20:54.750 be super fucking patriotic. 0:20:54.869 --> 0:20:55.169 Yeah. 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:55.990 Yeah. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:56.230 Yeah. 0:20:56.450 --> 0:21:00.140 Like it's a betrayal of the concepts that like this country, 0:21:00.580 --> 0:21:03.040 many other of those concepts are bad things like slavery. 0:21:03.060 --> 0:21:04.940 Well, but do you know what else is a foundational 0:21:04.980 --> 0:21:06.540 concept of the American economy? 0:21:06.980 --> 0:21:08.820 Oh, is it the sale of products and services? 0:21:09.460 --> 0:21:12.490 That's true, and the advertisement of products and services, of 0:21:12.530 --> 0:21:14.869 which we are proud, continuing that tradition. 0:21:14.990 --> 0:21:27.400 That's true. All right, we're back. 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.200 So, as we discussed before we started recording, neither of 0:21:32.260 --> 0:21:37.030 us are total internet understanders. I read a blow-by-blow Noblogs.org, 0:21:37.070 --> 0:21:39.730 et cetera, have gone down. If you want to keep up, 0:21:40.330 --> 0:21:45.730 inventati.org is still up as of this recording. And keepitfree.ai, 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.080 which is probably the only good. ai in existence, is 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.040 where you can find press releases and things like that, right? 0:21:53.619 --> 0:21:55.859 And they did, as of a couple days ago, as 0:21:55.900 --> 0:21:58.550 of two days ago, A slash I was like, all right, 0:21:58.920 --> 0:21:59.290 we're done. 0:21:59.530 --> 0:22:01.560 We don't exist anymore. You beat us. 0:22:02.180 --> 0:22:03.639 And a lot of that has to do with the 0:22:03.700 --> 0:22:05.600 taking down of all of their infrastructure. 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:06.440 And it's interesting. 0:22:06.770 --> 0:22:09.129 And part of the reason it's so chilling is that 0:22:09.450 --> 0:22:11.330 back in the day, when we thought of the internet 0:22:11.369 --> 0:22:13.470 as a very resilient thing, it was very decentralized, it 0:22:13.490 --> 0:22:17.280 was very resilient. If you own your own server, unless 0:22:17.340 --> 0:22:20.320 it gets seized in a raid by the police like 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:24.080 a physical computer as a server right yeah and these 0:22:24.140 --> 0:22:26.520 days it's even hard to imagine that like a lot 0:22:26.540 --> 0:22:28.800 of people used to just have servers like under their 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.790 desk you know or in their closet right they were 0:22:31.830 --> 0:22:33.869 like I run an extra cooling fan in there and 0:22:33.890 --> 0:22:36.430 I have a website in there yeah you know my 0:22:36.490 --> 0:22:41.950 first website was on my boss's server living at his 0:22:41.990 --> 0:22:45.129 house you know yeah and so you would defend the 0:22:45.170 --> 0:22:49.070 physical server and fairly regularly the police would raid and 0:22:49.190 --> 0:22:51.949 capture physical servers in various places around the world, you know? 0:22:52.570 --> 0:22:54.710 And it was usually seen as an overreach and often 0:22:54.750 --> 0:22:57.510 found later in court to be an overreach. But what's 0:22:57.550 --> 0:23:00.169 happening here is they got censored off of the internet 0:23:00.250 --> 0:23:02.830 in a different way, in a way that's a little 0:23:02.850 --> 0:23:06.109 bit frightening. And again, I read all of the data 0:23:06.170 --> 0:23:08.609 about this, and I even have some technical background, and 0:23:08.690 --> 0:23:11.830 I don't fully understand all of it. But even if 0:23:11.890 --> 0:23:15.450 you have your physical computer and you own your. 0:23:15.730 --> 0:23:16.610 Org, right? 0:23:16.650 --> 0:23:22.730 You own noblogs.org. The concept of. org is owned in America. 0:23:23.170 --> 0:23:23.330 Yeah. 0:23:24.090 --> 0:23:25.830 I know this isn't totally what you asked me to do, 0:23:26.050 --> 0:23:28.090 but I think this is what's really important for everyone 0:23:28.109 --> 0:23:29.850 to understand, even if you don't care about any of 0:23:29.890 --> 0:23:35.490 this stuff. Tyranny in America can fundamentally gut the internet. 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:35.840 Yeah. 0:23:36.260 --> 0:23:40.740 Because there are American parts on a lot of this stuff. 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:43.240 You know, it's kind of like how the UN is everywhere, 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:44.379 but it's also in New York City. 0:23:44.780 --> 0:23:45.200 Yeah. 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.240 Like, I think it is really important to reinforce that, right? Like, 0:23:48.619 --> 0:23:51.400 Because there's somebody sitting in the mountains of Myanmar right 0:23:51.420 --> 0:23:53.840 now who can't communicate to the world anymore. 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:54.160 Yeah. 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:57.260 Who probably doesn't know what A slash I are. 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:57.620 Right. 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.480 Let's go through like exactly what happened. Margaret and I 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:01.920 have spoken about this a couple of times. Neither of 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.700 us are internet understanders. I'm sure some of you listening 0:24:04.740 --> 0:24:07.310 to this have a better grasp on the nuts and 0:24:07.330 --> 0:24:10.170 bolts of this than we do. But essentially on the 0:24:10.430 --> 0:24:13.229 28th of August, so that's two days after they were 0:24:13.250 --> 0:24:15.510 declared by the Office of Foreign Assets, for all to 0:24:15.530 --> 0:24:19.810 be especially designated global terrorist organization. There was a DNS 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:24.409 level issue with their website. From what I understand, the 0:24:24.430 --> 0:24:29.149 domain status was on something called server hold. The level 0:24:29.170 --> 0:24:32.250 at which this happened, I guess, is attributable, they believe, 0:24:32.290 --> 0:24:34.209 to the public internet registry. 0:24:34.890 --> 0:24:35.050 Yeah. 0:24:35.070 --> 0:24:40.310 So like your website's address isn't coolzonelover.org, right? 0:24:40.790 --> 0:24:42.850 Right. Your website address is, I'm. 0:24:42.810 --> 0:24:50.590 Making this number up, don't put it in your computer, 148.2.994.255.0.1. 0:24:50.590 --> 0:24:50.770 Right? 0:24:50.990 --> 0:24:51.150 Yeah. 0:24:51.270 --> 0:24:52.730 That's your actual address. 0:24:52.780 --> 0:24:53.910 That's your IP. 0:24:53.580 --> 0:24:54.840 Address of the server. 0:24:55.580 --> 0:24:55.760 Right? 0:24:55.859 --> 0:24:57.959 And that is what goes to that. But no one 0:24:57.980 --> 0:25:01.710 wants to walk around remembering whatever number I just made up. 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.120 I don't remember it anymore, even though it's my website, 0:25:04.260 --> 0:25:07.980 even as coolzonedumber.org. And so what we have is we 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:13.550 have domain name registries, which is basically... an agreed-upon list of, well, 0:25:13.590 --> 0:25:14.510 this point's here. 0:25:14.869 --> 0:25:15.010 Yeah. 0:25:15.410 --> 0:25:15.590 Right? 0:25:16.010 --> 0:25:18.040 And so there used to only be a couple of 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:21.300 this TLD, top-level domains. 0:25:21.700 --> 0:25:25.859 They used to only be. com,. net,. org,. edu,. gov,. mil. 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.139 I'm probably missing a couple. And then there's all the 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:30.770 nation ones,. us. 0:25:30.810 --> 0:25:31.230 whatever. 0:25:31.550 --> 0:25:32.770 co. uk, yeah. 0:25:33.470 --> 0:25:37.710 But those are not centrally owned, right? Those are not 0:25:37.790 --> 0:25:40.230 coming from one place. But so if you take down 0:25:40.270 --> 0:25:43.560 someone's DNS, I believe that this is the same thing 0:25:43.619 --> 0:25:50.000 as saying you're disconnecting from the registry where coolzone lover.org 0:25:50.180 --> 0:25:53.460 goes to that string of numbers. But yeah, I'm actually 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:55.960 a little confused about what's happening in this particular case. 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.030 Because I, and I, some of the stuff I read 0:25:59.070 --> 0:26:00.930 says like, it's actually kind of not known. 0:26:00.950 --> 0:26:02.030 And maybe by the time this comes out. 0:26:02.050 --> 0:26:05.609 It'll be a little bit clearer because there's also discussion 0:26:05.670 --> 0:26:08.629 that they have probably been hacked at some point. And 0:26:08.750 --> 0:26:13.890 also very importantly, there was no official declaration that everyone 0:26:13.950 --> 0:26:16.629 had to stop. If nothing else, they had a month 0:26:16.910 --> 0:26:19.760 to comply, right? So it seems like there's been some 0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:23.179 compliance in advance. And I know that they were in 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:27.439 the process of basically trying to DUS themselves, right? When 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:28.919 it first came out, they said, all right, we're going 0:26:28.940 --> 0:26:31.159 to fight this. And they planned on fighting it. And 0:26:31.180 --> 0:26:33.250 they started doing the work of fighting it. And they 0:26:33.310 --> 0:26:36.530 started looking to say, where else can we host our 0:26:37.330 --> 0:26:38.430 domain names and. 0:26:38.390 --> 0:26:39.290 Stuff like that, right? 0:26:39.330 --> 0:26:41.969 Because the physical servers aren't in America. And they're like, 0:26:42.010 --> 0:26:44.880 all right, how do we get clear of this? But 0:26:45.060 --> 0:26:47.520 they were not given the chance because of the advanced 0:26:47.540 --> 0:26:51.229 compliance of organizations like their bank, right? Because you can't 0:26:51.490 --> 0:26:55.090 run an above-ground organization where you all say, hey, this 0:26:55.150 --> 0:26:58.770 is my name, and you pay for internet services if 0:26:58.830 --> 0:27:02.040 you can't give those people money. And that is very 0:27:02.170 --> 0:27:04.840 often the choke point. That is like why sex workers 0:27:04.900 --> 0:27:07.419 are so fucked in America is that all of the 0:27:07.619 --> 0:27:10.780 payment process– it's not illegal to sell nudie pics on 0:27:10.820 --> 0:27:12.180 the internet. Everyone knows that. 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:12.680 Mm-hmm. 0:27:13.500 --> 0:27:14.490 But you can't do it. 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:16.119 You can do it, but you have to put a 0:27:16.180 --> 0:27:19.070 lot of work into it because even if it's not 0:27:19.109 --> 0:27:24.170 against a site's content moderation, the payment processors won't let 0:27:24.210 --> 0:27:26.590 you do it because they're afraid of getting anywhere near 0:27:26.650 --> 0:27:28.850 anything that could possibly be a crime. So they're going 0:27:28.869 --> 0:27:30.949 to destroy people's way of life and cut them off 0:27:31.109 --> 0:27:33.750 from the banking institutions. And so it's just more of 0:27:33.810 --> 0:27:38.260 a problem about how all of these centralized infrastructure can 0:27:38.300 --> 0:27:41.119 be seized by fascists. Again, that only partly answers it. 0:27:41.420 --> 0:27:44.520 So by, what was it, September 6th, they threw in 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.460 the towel, essentially. And they said, like, we've been talking 0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:50.920 to everyone and this just isn't working. We can't do this. 0:27:51.340 --> 0:27:53.280 And I actually think that's a way of being responsible 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.780 to the people who rely on them instead of trying 0:27:55.820 --> 0:27:57.919 to pretend like they're going to soldier on. If I 0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:00.520 sound defensive, it's because I think some people are kind of... 0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:04.060 curious about why they gave up, but they write very 0:28:04.140 --> 0:28:08.620 eloquently about why they stopped. And on September 8th, they 0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:12.270 wrote a statement about the banking situation. Quote, we are 0:28:12.330 --> 0:28:14.950 undergoing US sanctions without any kind of hearing in a 0:28:14.990 --> 0:28:18.109 court of law, without any possibility to defend ourselves, and 0:28:18.150 --> 0:28:21.130 without ever receiving a request to take down specific contents 0:28:21.250 --> 0:28:22.450 or abide by laws that. 0:28:22.350 --> 0:28:23.990 We may have been deemed to infringe upon. 0:28:24.650 --> 0:28:26.780 Yeah, I think that's a very good summary of like 0:28:26.820 --> 0:28:29.330 where we're at with this. I'll just say like, A 0:28:29.369 --> 0:28:30.889 couple of things. One, if we want to look for 0:28:30.910 --> 0:28:34.950 places where violence is coordinated and organized, x.com, the Everything website. 0:28:35.150 --> 0:28:37.570 Yeah, totally. Everything including organized violence. 0:28:37.630 --> 0:28:38.790 Yeah. Yeah. 0:28:38.890 --> 0:28:41.550 I mean, it's where the violent right has organized for years, right? 0:28:41.710 --> 0:28:41.950 Yeah. 0:28:42.370 --> 0:28:46.130 And then increasingly since Elon Musk purchased it. The other 0:28:46.190 --> 0:28:48.620 thing that I wanted to say is that these are 0:28:48.780 --> 0:28:52.040 WordPress sites, right? WordPress, to be clear, if you're not familiar, 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:54.820 is not owned by A slash I. It's a software 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:58.980 that can be used on other platforms. blog hosting platforms. 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:01.940 So some of these people will be able to host 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.460 their blog somewhere else. I imagine that given what has 0:29:05.500 --> 0:29:08.600 just happened, it will be hard for them to include 0:29:08.640 --> 0:29:11.480 groups that have nothing to do with those mentioned in 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:15.830 this executive order. But the fact that it is WordPress 0:29:15.910 --> 0:29:20.590 makes that movement to another platform a little bit easier 0:29:20.970 --> 0:29:21.370 for them. 0:29:21.390 --> 0:29:21.470 Yeah. 0:29:22.770 --> 0:29:25.530 If they were able to download their data, there's been 0:29:25.570 --> 0:29:28.330 a lot of complicated things about whether or not data 0:29:28.350 --> 0:29:29.230 has been accessible. 0:29:29.630 --> 0:29:30.890 Okay. Yeah, that sucks. 0:29:30.950 --> 0:29:33.760 I don't have the current blow-by-blow of that. 0:29:33.860 --> 0:29:36.970 Yeah, that's really difficult. But yeah, because the entire banking 0:29:37.010 --> 0:29:40.440 system runs through America, no one will want to bank 0:29:40.760 --> 0:29:44.640 with a slash i and i imagine because of what 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:48.500 has just happened other places where they might otherwise put 0:29:48.540 --> 0:29:54.060 their blogs will be concerned yeah so we will see 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:57.700 how this plays out for those groups right like uh 0:29:58.350 --> 0:30:02.010 We'll see what happens to them. Again, people were not 0:30:02.230 --> 0:30:05.790 paying for this. So they weren't transferring money to an organization. 0:30:05.810 --> 0:30:08.600 And again, there was a time period in which these 0:30:08.620 --> 0:30:11.640 would be implemented. So these people are not directly impacted 0:30:11.700 --> 0:30:16.700 by the sanctions because A slash I stopped existing before 0:30:16.780 --> 0:30:18.600 those sanctions would have come into play. 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:20.790 Right, which is one of the things that they are 0:30:20.870 --> 0:30:25.120 doing by throwing in the towel is they're Not letting 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:29.030 people make a specific dangerous decision or even more so 0:30:29.710 --> 0:30:32.950 accidentally by not having not paid attention to the news. 0:30:33.350 --> 0:30:33.510 Right. 0:30:33.530 --> 0:30:36.290 You set up a blog like this 18 years. 0:30:36.070 --> 0:30:37.260 Ago and you forgot about it. 0:30:37.390 --> 0:30:37.550 Yeah. 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:41.020 And you're suddenly like, you know, being called a terrorist 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.540 by the US government. I think that they're saving a 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.300 lot of people a lot of trouble. I hate saying that. 0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:47.700 I think they made the right call, but I do. 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:47.940 Yeah. 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:49.040 Yeah. 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.680 Like, I don't quite know how because I'm not transferring money, 0:30:51.780 --> 0:30:53.600 but I'm not an expert in these things. But it 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:54.610 does seem like a risk. 0:30:55.030 --> 0:30:56.230 That's what's messy about it, right? 0:30:56.310 --> 0:30:56.530 Yeah. 0:30:56.690 --> 0:30:57.730 Yeah. 0:30:57.750 --> 0:30:59.910 The whole point, I think, is that you don't quite 0:30:59.930 --> 0:31:03.290 know how. This is one of the many things that 0:31:03.330 --> 0:31:08.760 the US began doing after 9-11, which were fundamentally betrayals 0:31:08.820 --> 0:31:09.930 of the Bill of Rights. 0:31:10.140 --> 0:31:10.340 Yeah. 0:31:10.900 --> 0:31:14.760 And we live with the consequences of them every day now. 0:31:14.820 --> 0:31:14.980 Yeah. 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.400 Like DHS. DHS is a post-9-11 thing. 0:31:17.420 --> 0:31:17.500 Yeah. 0:31:18.540 --> 0:31:21.340 This country did just fine without it for a very 0:31:21.380 --> 0:31:23.260 long while. It was doing just fine. Still lots of 0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:26.590 fucked up shit going down, but yeah, it didn't need DHS. 0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:29.190 But, you know, even if your goal is to be 0:31:29.230 --> 0:31:32.630 like a fucked up kind of center right guy, America was. 0:31:32.570 --> 0:31:37.670 Doing just fine. Didn't need all that shit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 0:31:37.870 --> 0:31:39.210 I think the part. 0:31:38.790 --> 0:31:41.510 About the open internet stuff is so essential because it's 0:31:41.550 --> 0:31:44.360 like everyone was starting to say with the rise of fascism, 0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:48.050 people were starting to say like, hey- we should probably 0:31:48.070 --> 0:31:51.209 get off meta, right? And I'm not telling people what 0:31:51.250 --> 0:31:54.240 to do. I have an Instagram still, I hate it. 0:31:54.770 --> 0:31:57.290 But people are starting to say like, how do we 0:31:57.390 --> 0:32:00.820 organize outside of this? And in ways that have been 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:04.260 perfectly legal since the internet existed, right? It's just like 0:32:04.540 --> 0:32:07.520 the kind of thing that seems like such a non-issue, 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:08.160 you know? 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:08.900 Yeah. 0:32:09.780 --> 0:32:12.850 And it's a way of keeping all of us trapped 0:32:13.470 --> 0:32:14.450 on platforms. 0:32:14.850 --> 0:32:14.990 Yeah. 0:32:15.330 --> 0:32:20.690 Where we have to abide by their moderation standards, which 0:32:20.710 --> 0:32:23.170 of course change all the time and become never in 0:32:23.230 --> 0:32:27.880 positive ways, you know? And it's a real, they come 0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:29.340 for them in the morning, they come for you at 0:32:29.380 --> 0:32:33.700 night kind of thing. I think that this is a 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:37.480 pretty serious statement by the federal government that they are 0:32:37.500 --> 0:32:43.180 interested in attacking autonomous infrastructure. And not just structure for 0:32:43.220 --> 0:32:47.500 autonomous Marxists, but I mean... Infrastructure that is autonomous from 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:52.680 the corporate world that everyone is aware of being pretty dystopian. 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:53.540 Yeah. 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:58.770 And again, this will have global implications, right? Just real 0:32:58.790 --> 0:33:01.370 quick to sum up the other stuff that they talked 0:33:01.410 --> 0:33:04.670 about in that sanctioned document, talk about how violent acts 0:33:04.710 --> 0:33:08.150 and acts dangerous to human life are exempt from the 0:33:08.230 --> 0:33:11.270 First Amendment. Again, we've been over how AI was not 0:33:11.330 --> 0:33:12.690 doing violent acts, right? 0:33:13.050 --> 0:33:13.830 A slash I, yeah. 0:33:14.130 --> 0:33:16.670 Yeah, A slash I, sorry. AI itself actually is doing 0:33:16.710 --> 0:33:20.470 violent things by proxy, and that's sad. They also mentioned 0:33:20.770 --> 0:33:24.040 in this sanctions document, Palestine Action, they referred to it 0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:26.940 as a foreign terrorist organization. I think what is important 0:33:27.140 --> 0:33:29.640 is that if you're hearing this, not reading it, those 0:33:29.900 --> 0:33:33.440 letters are used in lowercase. So it is an organization 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:36.570 which the United Kingdom has prescribed as a terrorist group, 0:33:37.170 --> 0:33:40.710 as opposed to a listed FTO. There is a list 0:33:40.750 --> 0:33:43.050 of foreign terrorist organizations. We talked about that before, right? 0:33:43.070 --> 0:33:46.280 That's kind of the highest level. That's To my knowledge, 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:47.690 not what they're saying here, because it's not on the 0:33:47.710 --> 0:33:52.020 FTO list. And because the use of lowercase text, I 0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:55.180 am taking to mean that it's... And also because it 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:57.440 is factually true that it's prescribed by the United Kingdom. 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:01.420 And then they also sanctioned a group which they claim 0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:03.500 acts as a front for the PFLP, the Popular Front 0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:06.200 for Liberation of Palestine, during that time. All of which 0:34:06.340 --> 0:34:11.400 they bundled together under far-left extremists and violent far-left terrorist networks. 0:34:12.060 --> 0:34:14.779 The internet continues to get more dystopian every day. 0:34:15.700 --> 0:34:15.859 Yep. 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:20.200 But learning some of the hacker type stuff. And again, 0:34:20.219 --> 0:34:22.280 I don't mean breaking into computers when I say hacking. 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:24.540 I'm talking about like, although, you know, do. 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:24.960 Whatever you want. 0:34:25.300 --> 0:34:28.140 But the way that they built this kind of infrastructure 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.279 was that they got together and they said, we want 0:34:31.300 --> 0:34:32.500 to build this kind of infrastructure. 0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:34.060 What does that look like? And people did it all 0:34:34.100 --> 0:34:34.640 over the world. 0:34:35.540 --> 0:34:38.180 One advantage of being not a very centralized movement, this 0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:40.930 is a big blow and it sucks. 0:34:41.550 --> 0:34:43.100 But like, if you want to. 0:34:43.489 --> 0:34:44.950 Fight back, one of the ways you can do it 0:34:45.650 --> 0:34:48.990 is get together with your friends and learn about how 0:34:49.090 --> 0:34:53.300 to use the internet at a pretty fundamental level to 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.560 put up websites and things like that, host servers, a 0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:00.640 bunch of people who weren't even necessarily technically savvy when 0:35:00.660 --> 0:35:04.040 they started, just started teaching themselves. Especially the Inventati seems 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:06.140 like they just were like, we're going to teach ourselves 0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:08.560 how to do this, and they did it. And it 0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:10.060 sucks when we have to fight the same battles over 0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:13.950 and over again, but that's life, baby. 0:35:14.170 --> 0:35:16.300 Imagine Sisyphus happy. Perfect. 0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:19.259 Margaret, you have another podcast if people want to hear 0:35:19.300 --> 0:35:21.660 about life and some of the nice things that have 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:23.479 happened during people's lives. 0:35:23.860 --> 0:35:25.479 I have a show called Cool People Who Do Cool Stuff. 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:28.930 James is often a guest on that. Sometimes I think 0:35:29.030 --> 0:35:31.770 even a host teaches me the thing. And it is 0:35:31.810 --> 0:35:35.290 a radical history podcast. And I did a long series 0:35:35.489 --> 0:35:38.010 on the ultra-globalization movement somewhat recently. 0:35:38.030 --> 0:35:38.730 You can look in the. 0:35:38.730 --> 0:35:42.089 Archives for that. And I'll probably be talking more about 0:35:42.130 --> 0:35:45.290 this issue on there. I just finished a four-parter on 0:35:45.610 --> 0:35:49.690 flock and the fight against flock and the popular revolt 0:35:49.750 --> 0:35:52.410 that is currently winning against flock yeah so that's up 0:35:52.430 --> 0:35:53.170 your alley. 0:35:52.969 --> 0:35:55.910 Cool people who did cool stuff yeah yeah. 0:35:55.830 --> 0:35:59.170 If people want to understand anti-globe a relatively short summary 0:35:59.270 --> 0:36:01.660 if you like reading more than listening uh i get 0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:03.819 you've made it 40 minutes into a podcast is the 0:36:03.860 --> 0:36:07.500 new anarchist by david graber yeah graber writes accessibly i'll 0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:09.500 put it in the show notes yeah that's all i 0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:12.500 got thank you margaret yeah thanks for having me thanks 0:36:12.520 --> 0:36:13.100 for coming. 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:28.430 Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a show about everything 0:36:28.489 --> 0:36:35.350 being totally fine and great, always, right now. I'm Garrison Davis. 0:36:35.410 --> 0:36:40.089 I'm joined by Dr. Kafei Oda. Everything is great. You're 0:36:40.130 --> 0:36:45.259 doing great. I'm doing great. Things are fantastic. Oh, ketamine. 0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:46.610 Ha ha! 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:52.120 It's good to see you again, Kaveh. Last time we 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:55.080 spoke was on your podcast, House of Pod. 0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:59.600 Yes, about looks maxing. Yeah, thank you for having me. 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.100 First of all, it's just nice to see you. And 0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:04.080 it's nice to see your face. And it's nice to 0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:05.340 hear your voice. And I know we're going to be 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:08.980 talking about some stuff that I actually am very curious 0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:12.219 to hear your thoughts on. I exist very much in 0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:15.500 the doctor, science, public health world online. And I hear 0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:17.950 a lot of those voices. I have a good sense 0:37:18.030 --> 0:37:21.609 of the variety of voices coming out of those spaces 0:37:21.860 --> 0:37:24.259 on the topics we're going to touch on today. But yeah, 0:37:24.420 --> 0:37:26.600 I mean, I really want to hear your thoughts about it. 0:37:27.060 --> 0:37:28.680 Oh, I want to hear your thoughts on it, not 0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:30.680 just because you're a doctor, but because you have also 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:34.370 done a decent bit of research or have spent some 0:37:34.750 --> 0:37:38.110 time in the digital Maha universe. 0:37:38.230 --> 0:37:39.330 Yeah, I have. 0:37:39.770 --> 0:37:41.010 As an outsider. Yeah. 0:37:41.430 --> 0:37:43.790 We talked about Maha not too long ago on your 0:37:43.830 --> 0:37:45.810 show as well. We kind of talked about some of 0:37:45.830 --> 0:37:50.330 like the class dynamics of Maha, how the sort of 0:37:50.390 --> 0:37:53.839 healthier lifestyles that some of these influencers push for is 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:56.920 unaffordable to a lot of working class people. 0:37:57.180 --> 0:37:57.379 Right. 0:37:57.620 --> 0:38:00.900 And we're going to talk about Maha once again today. 0:38:01.780 --> 0:38:05.290 And because of how much time you've spent watching those 0:38:05.370 --> 0:38:07.070 horrible Maha podcasts. 0:38:07.270 --> 0:38:10.070 Too much Maha. I listen to a lot of RFK Jr. 0:38:10.070 --> 0:38:12.190 's podcasts. I think it might have hurt my brain. 0:38:12.210 --> 0:38:14.629 I think I did things to myself that I have 0:38:14.710 --> 0:38:16.070 not fully recovered from. 0:38:16.090 --> 0:38:20.950 But because of your experience, I want to... briefly ask 0:38:20.969 --> 0:38:25.410 you what Maha is. What do you understand Maha being? 0:38:25.450 --> 0:38:29.010 Before we talk about this whole idea, which this episode 0:38:29.030 --> 0:38:30.649 is about, it's in the title, about if you should 0:38:30.670 --> 0:38:33.969 do outreach to these people, what are the risks of that? 0:38:33.989 --> 0:38:36.810 What are the benefits of that, potentially? Who actually are 0:38:36.830 --> 0:38:38.450 these people? What is Maha? 0:38:39.130 --> 0:38:42.890 That's a really great question and something I have been 0:38:42.950 --> 0:38:46.430 trying to figure out myself. I largely, like a lot 0:38:46.450 --> 0:38:48.859 of people when I first heard of it, was kind 0:38:48.900 --> 0:38:51.800 of hoping it would go away. It wasn't. It didn't. 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:54.939 And it is a actual factor now that we have 0:38:54.980 --> 0:38:57.060 to take into account and discuss. It's real and it's 0:38:57.120 --> 0:39:02.400 very important. And what I have learned from going into 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:05.450 these Maha spaces is which I tragically have done. And 0:39:05.530 --> 0:39:08.480 also not just Maha spaces, but sort of the Maha 0:39:08.660 --> 0:39:09.760 adjacent spaces. 0:39:09.820 --> 0:39:10.040 Yes. 0:39:10.260 --> 0:39:15.060 Things like the Andrew Huberman podcast and the Peter Attia stuff. 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.100 I've done a lot of work into that for episodes. 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.609 And that has given me, I think, a pretty broad 0:39:21.650 --> 0:39:24.089 sense of what's going on. Now, I think the easy 0:39:24.110 --> 0:39:26.689 thing for most people when they hear Maha, they think 0:39:27.510 --> 0:39:29.250 anti-vaxxer because, you know, RFKJ. 0:39:29.270 --> 0:39:29.390 RFKJ. 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:32.420 RFK Jr. anti-vaxxer. That's like the first two associations. 0:39:32.460 --> 0:39:32.620 Right. 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:36.020 But it is important to know that they are not monolithic. 0:39:36.260 --> 0:39:39.500 There's a lot of variation there. And actually, if you 0:39:39.620 --> 0:39:41.600 poll them, if you ask them, which I think we're 0:39:41.620 --> 0:39:45.660 going to get into, Maha supporters... of which there are 0:39:46.160 --> 0:39:51.420 varieties of from mild to severe supporters, they will actually 0:39:51.700 --> 0:39:54.509 not say that vaccines are their top issue. Now, I 0:39:54.550 --> 0:39:56.790 don't believe that. If I'm being totally honest, I just 0:39:56.830 --> 0:39:59.509 don't believe that. I mean, there are Maha people who 0:39:59.590 --> 0:40:01.660 vaccines are their top issue. Absolutely. 0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:01.879 Right. 0:40:02.010 --> 0:40:03.760 And they are very vocal online. 0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:05.660 I think what we'll kind of get to in a 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:08.799 bit is that there's other Maha people or people in like, 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.180 as you say, this kind of Maha extended universe who 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.480 maybe do not list vaccines as their top issue. 0:40:14.540 --> 0:40:14.820 Yes. 0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:18.190 But obviously, this is like culturally like a big part 0:40:18.210 --> 0:40:19.390 of the Maha Association. 0:40:19.930 --> 0:40:21.950 That's right. And when you ask them what is their 0:40:21.969 --> 0:40:24.569 top priority, the thing that comes up the most is 0:40:24.670 --> 0:40:27.589 actually the cost of health care. And then that's sort 0:40:27.610 --> 0:40:31.790 of followed by other things like, you know, chemicals in food. Yes. 0:40:32.090 --> 0:40:38.410 Restricting environmental pollutants, limiting corporate influence in food policy and limiting, 0:40:38.850 --> 0:40:44.190 you know, malfeasance by health care institutions and insurance, which, 0:40:44.350 --> 0:40:47.390 you know, when you say that, it all sounds actually 0:40:47.730 --> 0:40:51.719 pretty reasonable. And pretty, if you take it out of 0:40:51.760 --> 0:40:56.330 its current context, left-coded. These are all sort of relatively 0:40:56.770 --> 0:41:03.850 traditionally leftist ideas. Now, that being said, aside from ushering 0:41:03.930 --> 0:41:08.390 in the golden age of diarrhea, undermining vaccines has really 0:41:08.469 --> 0:41:13.009 been at the core of Kennedy's HHS. And one of 0:41:13.030 --> 0:41:17.669 the few things he's actually successfully accomplished is dismantling that. 0:41:18.450 --> 0:41:20.150 And so even I, we're going to talk about it. 0:41:20.170 --> 0:41:21.850 And I see the polling that says, no, it's not 0:41:21.910 --> 0:41:25.160 only about 4% of Maha really care about vaccines. I've 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:26.440 definitely seen other polling, which. 0:41:26.500 --> 0:41:26.820 Yeah. 0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:29.520 And I would just say from my personal experience online again, 0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:31.660 and I am, I am an old, as you are 0:41:31.700 --> 0:41:34.620 very well aware, Garrison, you have helped me out in 0:41:34.660 --> 0:41:37.870 the ways young people do with old people online. In 0:41:37.890 --> 0:41:38.750 the ways of looks facts. 0:41:38.830 --> 0:41:39.190 Yeah. 0:41:39.250 --> 0:41:40.410 You helped me out a lot of this stuff, but 0:41:40.430 --> 0:41:44.350 I have, when I am online or even IRL, as 0:41:44.430 --> 0:41:47.730 I hear the kids say, if you push them on vaccines, 0:41:47.750 --> 0:41:50.210 it becomes pretty clear that there are really only very 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:55.000 few pro-vaccine Maha folks. And even then, it's usually like, oh, well, 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:58.279 the polio vaccine was fine. And they don't even think 0:41:58.340 --> 0:42:02.160 that's necessary anymore. So Maha is a big, diverse group 0:42:02.200 --> 0:42:02.680 of people. 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:03.200 It is. 0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:07.940 And the movement itself is really powerful and has done 0:42:08.340 --> 0:42:11.799 a lot in two years. And if nothing else, they 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:14.540 have done an amazing thing with their branding and being 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:17.299 able to draw in people to this big tent. So 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:20.880 that's the best I can do to explain Maha, I think. 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:24.839 Yeah, I really understand why this question of should you 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:29.419 do outreach to these people is so charged because this 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:31.319 really is a life and death issue, like in like 0:42:31.340 --> 0:42:34.549 a literal sense, right? This sort of like movement that's 0:42:35.090 --> 0:42:39.570 come up, like up and around RFK Jr. has caused 0:42:39.610 --> 0:42:41.719 a lot of deadly harm Yes. 0:42:41.980 --> 0:42:42.480 In the world. 0:42:42.540 --> 0:42:42.680 Right. 0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:45.460 In the name of make America healthy again. 0:42:45.480 --> 0:42:45.780 Yeah. 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:46.489 RFQ Jr. 0:42:46.530 --> 0:42:49.810 Has rolled back childhood vaccine recommendations, has overseen massive budget 0:42:49.870 --> 0:42:53.690 and staffing cuts at HHS, CDC and the FDA. The 0:42:53.770 --> 0:42:57.950 administration has cut snap food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid. And the 0:42:58.210 --> 0:43:02.330 anti-vax movement more broadly has contributed to measles outbreaks in 0:43:02.350 --> 0:43:05.460 multiple states, right? This is real, real harms that have 0:43:05.500 --> 0:43:07.080 been done in the name of health. 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:10.140 Yeah, that's the funniest part about it. That's the great 0:43:10.200 --> 0:43:11.100 part about all this. 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:13.759 And as something that we'll kind of get to in 0:43:13.820 --> 0:43:18.190 a bit, any sort of potential outreach, and I'm not recommending... 0:43:18.510 --> 0:43:20.950 my listeners to do this outreach at all. That's not 0:43:20.989 --> 0:43:24.190 what this episode is for. But because all of these 0:43:24.270 --> 0:43:26.690 things that RFK and Trump has done in the name 0:43:26.730 --> 0:43:29.350 of health, because of how bad they are, that does 0:43:29.390 --> 0:43:31.430 also open up a lot of opportunity for people to 0:43:31.930 --> 0:43:36.660 attack RFK Jr. on this massive level of failure, including 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:40.020 failing on a lot of things that MAHA people largely 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.719 believe in. And I think something that's really unique and 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:46.440 interesting about MAHA compared to other aspects of the Trump world, 0:43:46.500 --> 0:43:49.530 is that Maha doesn't have the exact same kind of 0:43:49.969 --> 0:43:54.310 cult of personality around RFK Jr. the way MAGA does 0:43:54.489 --> 0:43:57.850 around Trump. And Maha is also just not nearly as 0:43:57.930 --> 0:43:59.970 loyal to Trump himself. 0:44:00.570 --> 0:44:02.770 Well, actually, let me ask you that, because that is 0:44:02.870 --> 0:44:06.000 the narrative now, is that Maha and MAGA are headed 0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:09.080 for a divorce and that they are diverging. But I 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:12.080 don't really see the evidence of that. What you say, 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:14.830 I think, is really interesting, though, in that Even though 0:44:15.070 --> 0:44:17.370 Maha is a pretty popular movement, and we'll talk about 0:44:17.430 --> 0:44:19.610 the numbers of people that support it, at least in 0:44:19.690 --> 0:44:24.360 some way, RFK Jr. is not viewed largely by the 0:44:24.380 --> 0:44:29.560 American population as trustworthy and someone that they rely on. No, 0:44:30.140 --> 0:44:33.069 Maha is much more popular than RFK Jr. 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:33.299 Is. 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:34.569 Yeah, right. 0:44:34.950 --> 0:44:37.890 And I think it is really important in this discussion 0:44:37.930 --> 0:44:42.750 to understand that Maha isn't even uniformly Republican. Right. And 0:44:42.870 --> 0:44:44.830 the movement and its goals are actually much more diffuse. 0:44:45.790 --> 0:44:49.250 According to a Politico poll from June of 2026, so 0:44:49.350 --> 0:44:53.330 fairly recently, just under one-third of U.S. adults identify as 0:44:53.690 --> 0:44:57.819 a part of Maha, 31%, and 20% of respondents said 0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:00.779 that they support the movement but don't identify as a 0:45:00.900 --> 0:45:05.140 part of it. So that's 50% of Americans who say 0:45:05.160 --> 0:45:08.759 they at least support the movement, only 30% of which 0:45:08.820 --> 0:45:11.320 wants to actually openly identify with the movement. 0:45:11.340 --> 0:45:11.720 Right. 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:15.939 And of the people who Politico polled, 20% of those 0:45:15.980 --> 0:45:20.030 who identified as Maha also voted for Kamala Harris. 0:45:20.350 --> 0:45:22.010 That's interesting. It's actually more than expected. 0:45:22.890 --> 0:45:26.930 And 17% of respondents who support the movement but don't 0:45:26.969 --> 0:45:30.069 identify as a part of it in name also voted 0:45:30.110 --> 0:45:32.690 for Harris. And you can compare these results to a 0:45:32.710 --> 0:45:36.540 poll from the KFF, formerly the Kaiser Family Foundation. Their 0:45:36.580 --> 0:45:41.120 poll was from May 2026. They found that 41% of U.S. 0:45:41.160 --> 0:45:47.740 adults are Maha supporters, half of which identify as Republicans, 30% independent, 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:49.380 and 15% Democrat. 0:45:49.860 --> 0:45:53.020 There's a lot of interesting things about this polling. One, 0:45:53.500 --> 0:45:58.310 that it's more common, commonly you'll see online people refer 0:45:58.350 --> 0:46:02.230 to the 4 in 10 American support Maha, but there 0:46:02.290 --> 0:46:05.170 is a variation of how much support that means. And 0:46:05.370 --> 0:46:08.050 if you're going to ask somebody, yeah, do you want 0:46:08.590 --> 0:46:12.290 chemicals in your food? Most people will say, no, not really. 0:46:12.610 --> 0:46:16.189 Or they'll say, do you want stricter food monitoring? I mean, 0:46:16.450 --> 0:46:18.529 most people are going to say yes, unless you're some 0:46:18.550 --> 0:46:22.319 weird libertarian that's just like the marketplace of diarrhea will 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:25.920 solve those problems. So it's understandable. Again, the branding is 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:28.420 really good and it works for a lot of people. 0:46:29.140 --> 0:46:33.319 It is interesting that so many people who may believe 0:46:33.340 --> 0:46:35.120 in at least some degree of it don't want to 0:46:35.140 --> 0:46:40.460 be labeled. as Maha. I think they realize how it looks, largely. 0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:41.739 There is a stink to it. 0:46:42.180 --> 0:46:44.900 And there is a very strong kind of anti-science component 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:49.160 to Maha in name proper, most of which, but not exclusively, 0:46:49.700 --> 0:46:53.390 most of which revolves around vaccines. And like you said, 0:46:53.430 --> 0:46:57.690 there actually is broad support for many components of Maha, 0:46:57.730 --> 0:47:02.170 things that Maha influencers talk about pretty often, regardless of 0:47:02.190 --> 0:47:04.989 whether people actually identify with or agree with the movement 0:47:05.030 --> 0:47:07.910 as a whole. There's broad support for improving our diets 0:47:07.950 --> 0:47:12.029 and increasing fitness, for reducing exposure to harmful chemicals, and 0:47:12.170 --> 0:47:16.050 limiting the influence of pharmaceutical companies. There is general broad 0:47:16.070 --> 0:47:18.530 support for all of those issues in this political poll, 0:47:19.010 --> 0:47:23.190 regardless of whether the respondents were MAHA or not. So 0:47:23.210 --> 0:47:27.489 there is this broad support, with the exception for vaccines. 0:47:27.590 --> 0:47:29.770 And that is where all of these kind of polls 0:47:29.830 --> 0:47:37.030 and stats take a really big divergence in this political poll. 65% 0:47:37.510 --> 0:47:41.700 of Maha said that they support reducing how many vaccines 0:47:41.820 --> 0:47:48.060 Americans receive, compared to 23% of non-Maha. And those who 0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:51.680 support the movement but don't identify it in name are 0:47:51.820 --> 0:47:55.880 kind of in the middle at 45%. So that is 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.799 like the clearest split in all of this polling. But 0:47:59.820 --> 0:48:02.660 what's interesting is that this vaccine question also has, in 0:48:02.700 --> 0:48:05.670 terms of all of the Maha priorities, that people in 0:48:05.690 --> 0:48:08.980 Maha support themselves, this has the least amount of support 0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:13.359 among their own movement. This is 65%, as opposed to 0:48:13.540 --> 0:48:16.800 limiting the influence of pharmaceutical companies, which had 80% support. 0:48:17.460 --> 0:48:21.580 So that is an interesting peek into the fractures within 0:48:21.660 --> 0:48:22.920 this Maha brand itself. 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:26.120 Yeah, it is. It is interesting as it's becoming bigger 0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:29.770 and becoming more like they're trying to codify it a 0:48:29.790 --> 0:48:33.509 little bit as an organization or as a group. how 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:36.270 you're starting to see some of those little cracks form. 0:48:36.710 --> 0:48:40.969 I mean, getting to the question, which has been coming 0:48:41.030 --> 0:48:43.930 up about this, does this mean that we should be 0:48:43.969 --> 0:48:46.950 reaching out to these people? Because there is this variation 0:48:46.969 --> 0:48:50.270 in beliefs and that we have the opportunity as people who, 0:48:50.910 --> 0:48:53.830 I don't know, believe in vaccines to talk to these 0:48:53.870 --> 0:48:57.250 people and bring them back. Is it politically something that's 0:48:57.290 --> 0:49:01.120 worthwhile to bring those people into the margins? That Last part, 0:49:01.200 --> 0:49:03.779 I don't know, because I don't really have a great 0:49:03.860 --> 0:49:07.660 sense of, you know, how politically this group will function 0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:10.690 in the next coming elections. I don't really know if 0:49:10.790 --> 0:49:14.510 AOC has to do the outreach that she's been doing 0:49:14.550 --> 0:49:17.290 and that's been getting a lot of press. I do 0:49:17.330 --> 0:49:19.890 think the question from just the public health standpoint is 0:49:19.930 --> 0:49:22.899 a really interesting one. It's one I'm really grappling with. 0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:27.400 What do we do? Do we in this country need Maha? 0:49:27.420 --> 0:49:31.380 Does public health need Maha? That's a literal question that 0:49:31.420 --> 0:49:35.140 has been asked by some very smart public health people online, 0:49:35.180 --> 0:49:37.020 some of which I know very well and have been 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:39.080 on the podcast like Craig Spencer and got a lot 0:49:39.100 --> 0:49:41.890 of grief for it. It's a tough question. And honestly, 0:49:41.910 --> 0:49:45.629 I may have a different answer in a month. My 0:49:45.710 --> 0:49:49.089 belief is we don't need Maha, but we do need 0:49:49.130 --> 0:49:53.030 the people in Maha to reconsider some of their voting 0:49:53.070 --> 0:49:56.290 patterns and their vaccine choices. And it's a tough call 0:49:56.330 --> 0:49:58.430 for me. I really have two minds about it. On 0:49:58.530 --> 0:50:01.089 one hand, I do believe it's important to reach out 0:50:01.170 --> 0:50:03.410 and convince as many people as we can that Maha 0:50:03.590 --> 0:50:06.609 is making people less healthy overall. while all the things 0:50:06.630 --> 0:50:08.870 that have been enacted in the name of Maha, even 0:50:08.910 --> 0:50:11.190 despite all these things that they seem to be interested in, 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:13.120 haven't really done that. 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:13.460 Yeah. 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:16.580 And then on the other hand, yeah, historically, we've probably 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:19.460 done a poor job of explaining the point and the 0:50:19.540 --> 0:50:22.580 safety of vaccines. You know, to be fair, it didn't 0:50:22.600 --> 0:50:24.360 always used to be the issue that it currently is. 0:50:24.380 --> 0:50:28.640 There's always been this anti-vaccine sense, but public health officials 0:50:28.780 --> 0:50:32.969 and doctors were not really trained in political persuasion the 0:50:33.010 --> 0:50:36.180 way a lawyer is. And I understand that. I might 0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:39.100 be a little condescending when I say all this stuff, 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:41.060 and I don't mean to be, but two things. I 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:43.870 refuse to believe... that we're in the situation that we're 0:50:43.910 --> 0:50:46.310 in now because we somehow messed up and we weren't 0:50:46.430 --> 0:50:49.710 nice enough to like the Jim Carys and the Jenny 0:50:49.750 --> 0:50:53.390 McCarthy's of the world. And yeah, maybe that your doctor 0:50:53.430 --> 0:50:55.129 was a jerk at some point and made you feel 0:50:55.190 --> 0:50:58.450 bad about not getting a vaccine, but that's not the 0:50:58.510 --> 0:51:00.940 reason we have the situation we're in. And even if 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:04.620 it was, it doesn't mean that everything that we have 0:51:04.660 --> 0:51:07.420 to do in terms of Maha is changed. Our outreach 0:51:07.440 --> 0:51:10.610 is does not need to change because of that. We should, 0:51:10.989 --> 0:51:12.529 I do think that, I think we need to be 0:51:12.910 --> 0:51:14.850 talking about these people. We need to be connecting on 0:51:14.870 --> 0:51:16.629 the things that we can totally connect on. And these 0:51:16.690 --> 0:51:19.650 polls show us that there are a lot of varieties 0:51:19.750 --> 0:51:21.710 of what we can connect with. We can connect with 0:51:21.730 --> 0:51:25.160 the cost of healthcare. We can talk about improving public 0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:31.630 health infrastructure. And we, our politicians who are a clear 0:51:31.670 --> 0:51:34.250 that President Trump not only didn't run on it, him 0:51:34.270 --> 0:51:38.050 and RFK Jr. haven't advanced any credible benefit to lowering 0:51:38.110 --> 0:51:41.029 healthcare costs. In fact, the big, beautiful bill is only 0:51:41.050 --> 0:51:43.950 going to make things worse and going to destroy rural hospitals. 0:51:44.010 --> 0:51:46.300 I think there are things in these polls that show 0:51:46.380 --> 0:51:49.390 us we can address some of those points with people 0:51:49.430 --> 0:51:54.060 without having to capitulate. And that's key. That is the 0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:57.359 key aspect. Right. And I know people are worried about that, 0:51:57.420 --> 0:51:59.380 that this could be like the Trojan horse if we 0:51:59.420 --> 0:52:04.870 try to embrace... these Maha people, then it'll shift AOC 0:52:04.910 --> 0:52:08.089 or all other politicians or even public health officials sort 0:52:08.110 --> 0:52:11.470 of to be more, you know, open to the anti-vax perspective. 0:52:11.910 --> 0:52:13.650 I don't think that's the right attitude. I mean, as 0:52:13.750 --> 0:52:15.870 distasteful as it may be, and again, I'm probably not 0:52:15.890 --> 0:52:18.130 the right person for this because I don't have the sophistication, 0:52:18.770 --> 0:52:22.390 but as distasteful as it might be, this movement is 0:52:22.430 --> 0:52:25.330 just two years old and it draws some level of 0:52:25.370 --> 0:52:28.640 support from four and ten Americans and And it's something 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:31.200 that we have to take seriously and we have to 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:35.340 try and connect where we can, try to be empathetic 0:52:35.380 --> 0:52:37.339 when we can, try to understand what we can, but 0:52:37.360 --> 0:52:40.340 we cannot, and I think this is super duper important, 0:52:41.030 --> 0:52:45.950 we cannot give an inch on our scientific principles. And 0:52:45.969 --> 0:52:48.190 I think those two things are manageable. I think we 0:52:48.230 --> 0:52:51.070 can do those two things at the same time. 100%. 0:52:51.070 --> 0:52:56.029 And I honestly, I don't see anyone arguing anything the 0:52:56.090 --> 0:53:00.319 alternative to that, that we should compromise those things. And 0:53:00.480 --> 0:53:03.080 the type of outreach the rest of this episode will 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:06.759 focus on and what prompted so much debate and discussion 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:11.910 online last week has not been based on appealing to 0:53:12.050 --> 0:53:17.319 or validating pseudoscientific beliefs or conspiracy theories on vaccines, but 0:53:17.469 --> 0:53:21.629 rather focused on some of those other Maha priorities that 0:53:21.690 --> 0:53:25.689 may overlap with some concerns that you, the listener, may 0:53:25.790 --> 0:53:30.370 have too. And if left-wing politicians actually address those concerns, 0:53:30.989 --> 0:53:35.670 how that could perhaps undermine the monopoly Maha currently has 0:53:36.010 --> 0:53:40.689 on those issues in our attention economy. And so next, 0:53:40.830 --> 0:53:45.470 we will discuss and debate AOC's approach to this outreach 0:53:45.489 --> 0:53:49.610 and and the pros or cons that may have. But first, 0:53:50.170 --> 0:54:03.820 here's some ads. Now, I do want to go a 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:08.060 little bit more into AOC's kind of version of this outreach, 0:54:08.140 --> 0:54:10.980 which has kind of sparked a lot of debate online 0:54:11.500 --> 0:54:14.500 regarding this topic, is how she has approached this problem, 0:54:14.520 --> 0:54:17.750 because she is seen the same things that I've been 0:54:17.810 --> 0:54:20.090 kind of talking about, and she's decided to act on it. 0:54:21.030 --> 0:54:25.430 About a week ago, Politico ran this story about AOC's 0:54:25.489 --> 0:54:30.100 outreach to Maha, both influential figures within the movement, but 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:33.700 then also trying to put out content to appeal to 0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:35.640 normies who. 0:54:35.520 --> 0:54:36.680 See themselves as Maha. 0:54:37.780 --> 0:54:39.500 This reporting from Politico seemed to be prompted by an 0:54:39.580 --> 0:54:43.580 interview on the Majority Report, leftist best, between Emma Vigeland 0:54:43.660 --> 0:54:48.560 and AOC last July, where she talked about environmental policy. 0:54:49.180 --> 0:54:51.560 AOC had recently been to Tennessee to help campaign for 0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:54.840 Justin Pearson, and she said that people there in Tennessee 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:58.219 are quote-unquote pissed off about data centers. Mm-hmm. And she 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:00.540 talked about how her constituents in the Bronx are a 0:55:01.140 --> 0:55:05.480 less ideologically driven electorate. They're very working class and racially diverse, 0:55:06.260 --> 0:55:08.759 but they might not have all the same concerns as 0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:12.930 a tree-hugging activist. Mm-hmm. And so when she was first elected, 0:55:12.989 --> 0:55:15.400 she did a quote unquote deep canvas of the community 0:55:15.580 --> 0:55:19.560 to learn how to talk about climate issues in a 0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:23.200 way that isn't just academic and theoretical. That actually points 0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:25.600 to day to day issues in people's lives. 0:55:26.300 --> 0:55:29.640 So eight years ago, it was me doing teachings in 0:55:29.700 --> 0:55:34.520 public housing, saying the lead in our water, the sky 0:55:34.540 --> 0:55:39.120 high asthma rates that we deal with. That is environmental. 0:55:39.570 --> 0:55:46.009 And this is directly contributed to with the gas infrastructure 0:55:46.050 --> 0:55:48.470 that we have in our public housing that is leaching 0:55:48.650 --> 0:55:52.390 into our air and all of the other environmental issues 0:55:52.430 --> 0:55:54.440 that are going on. And so with the data center fight, 0:55:55.680 --> 0:56:00.700 I think that this is, it's the similar analog. People 0:56:00.780 --> 0:56:03.480 are seeing how all of this is wrecking their health, 0:56:03.739 --> 0:56:09.290 wrecking their communities, and It makes environmental issues not academic, 0:56:09.410 --> 0:56:14.170 but very real in people's everyday lives. 0:56:14.190 --> 0:56:16.830 She later said, quote, We always have to be making 0:56:16.969 --> 0:56:20.130 three arguments at the same time for any issue, a 0:56:20.210 --> 0:56:24.090 moral argument, an economic argument, and also a political argument. 0:56:24.550 --> 0:56:26.590 And when we're able to argue for something in a 0:56:26.670 --> 0:56:30.189 chorus of all those three, then we're able to build 0:56:30.230 --> 0:56:35.250 a majoritarian coalition to actually win on them, unquote. And 0:56:35.290 --> 0:56:38.090 this is something she's been animated about for the past 0:56:38.130 --> 0:56:41.739 two years, is building these sorts of majoritarian coalitions to 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:44.440 actually win the things we believe in, not just endlessly 0:56:44.460 --> 0:56:45.420 scream about them online. 0:56:45.840 --> 0:56:47.660 Yeah, one thing in there that I think is really 0:56:47.719 --> 0:56:50.540 astute is, and this goes for us in public health 0:56:50.620 --> 0:56:53.080 as well, is that we need to show people that 0:56:53.100 --> 0:56:56.040 we are fighting for them, even for the people in 0:56:56.060 --> 0:56:58.640 the Maha movement. Because we do, still no matter what, 0:56:59.460 --> 0:57:03.370 they are our responsibility. to take care of. And their 0:57:03.390 --> 0:57:06.290 public health is also our responsibility. But something in there 0:57:06.330 --> 0:57:08.089 that's interesting is we have to also show them that 0:57:08.110 --> 0:57:12.180 we're not just fighting to preserve our precious institutions. It's 0:57:12.219 --> 0:57:15.080 not just that we're fighting for the CDC and FDA 0:57:15.120 --> 0:57:18.980 to retain some sense of normalcy, which, you know, we are. 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:22.220 But we need to show them that we're fighting for them. 0:57:22.500 --> 0:57:24.820 And I think that's a really important thing that if 0:57:24.860 --> 0:57:27.460 she can do that, I honestly don't follow her career 0:57:27.500 --> 0:57:29.520 well enough to know her as a politician, but she 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:31.360 seems very smart and very savvy. So I don't see 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.260 why she couldn't. I feel like that is not that 0:57:34.340 --> 0:57:37.620 that's a really reasonable approach. I think to, to, to 0:57:37.660 --> 0:57:40.010 doing this is to try and connect with them on 0:57:40.030 --> 0:57:40.620 those levels. 0:57:41.490 --> 0:57:45.090 And one thing she's, she's talked about trying to appeal 0:57:45.130 --> 0:57:50.210 to Maha supporters through is not by, you know, capitulating 0:57:50.250 --> 0:57:53.530 to their crazy stuff, but by pointing out to them that, 0:57:54.140 --> 0:57:57.780 how the administration has completely turned their back on a 0:57:57.820 --> 0:58:03.230 whole bunch of very base, popular policies that Maha also supports. 0:58:03.930 --> 0:58:07.430 Yeah. I mean, but here's also where I get cynical, 0:58:07.450 --> 0:58:09.830 because there's a part of me that's sort of like, yes, 0:58:09.850 --> 0:58:11.650 we need to be doing this, and we absolutely need 0:58:11.670 --> 0:58:15.610 to be showing people that not only are other people 0:58:16.210 --> 0:58:19.510 that you're not voting for, apparently, fighting for these exact 0:58:19.590 --> 0:58:21.750 principles you care about, but the people that you're now 0:58:21.790 --> 0:58:26.720 aligned with are actively doing things to dismantle the regulations 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:29.510 that are the things you care about. And there's a 0:58:29.550 --> 0:58:32.190 part of me that's just like, how can you not 0:58:32.410 --> 0:58:36.390 know already? And that is something I have to deal with. 0:58:36.950 --> 0:58:39.390 I have to sort of get past because we have to. 0:58:39.410 --> 0:58:42.410 I mean, we just sort of have to grow past 0:58:42.430 --> 0:58:44.270 that point. But I also don't see how it's not 0:58:44.450 --> 0:58:48.220 apparently obvious to everyone at this point. That these people 0:58:48.550 --> 0:58:51.190 are doing all the things you don't want. You think 0:58:51.230 --> 0:58:54.130 the environment has gotten any better? Do you think that 0:58:54.150 --> 0:58:58.729 there's been any meaningful like food safety or improvements? Yeah, 0:58:58.750 --> 0:59:00.650 a couple of red dyes. Now you can get like 0:59:00.690 --> 0:59:04.010 very pale Cheetos. But like people have to see past that, 0:59:04.070 --> 0:59:06.930 I think. And I don't think they are. I think 0:59:06.950 --> 0:59:08.510 in order to see past it, they have to be 0:59:08.550 --> 0:59:10.490 presented with that argument. Yes. 0:59:10.860 --> 0:59:13.600 And if no one in their media orbit is doing that, 0:59:13.700 --> 0:59:16.680 or if they feel like anyone who would make that 0:59:16.720 --> 0:59:20.740 argument is like, you know, actually against them, is hostile, 0:59:21.020 --> 0:59:22.440 then they're not going to listen to that person. And 0:59:22.460 --> 0:59:24.040 I think that's the needle that she's trying to thread. 0:59:24.500 --> 0:59:27.000 Something she's talked about specifically in this Majority Report interview 0:59:27.020 --> 0:59:29.420 is is that if Dems end up taking back the 0:59:29.460 --> 0:59:32.000 House in the midterms, they have to go after, quote, 0:59:32.380 --> 0:59:36.060 not just corruption generally, but corruption in the ways that 0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:37.600 undermine their base. 0:59:38.120 --> 0:59:38.390 Right. 0:59:38.570 --> 0:59:42.710 And a big factor that contributed to Trump's win in 2024, 0:59:42.710 --> 0:59:45.310 which was a blind spot to the Democrats and the 0:59:45.350 --> 0:59:49.370 media analyzing the election results, was the Maha movement. 0:59:49.950 --> 0:59:51.730 I actually think a lot of it was Maha. 0:59:52.650 --> 0:59:53.530 I think that. 0:59:54.440 --> 1:00:00.000 There was very little political analysis done on how they 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:07.720 really focused on women, on moms, on radicalizing and doing 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:12.980 a lot of persuasion in an electorate that was much 1:00:13.120 --> 1:00:20.510 more swingy than, you know, to be frank, white male voters. 1:00:20.550 --> 1:00:25.169 Those are generally broken more strongly towards Republicans. But they 1:00:25.310 --> 1:00:28.430 really focused a lot on women, and they have had 1:00:28.550 --> 1:00:34.930 probably the biggest betrayals with the glyphosate rulings, with their 1:00:35.770 --> 1:00:40.050 complete throwing in with Big Ag and Monsanto and Bayer, 1:00:40.770 --> 1:00:44.800 including coordinating with the Supreme Court and all of that. 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:49.080 And so I think their political vulnerabilities are in— we want 1:00:49.100 --> 1:00:52.580 to focus on corruption in the ways that undermine their promises— 1:00:54.490 --> 1:00:58.030 And we want to go after investigations that cut off 1:00:58.490 --> 1:01:02.890 the supply of their illicit money flows. 1:01:03.570 --> 1:01:06.170 Adding on to that, like the food safety cuts at 1:01:06.190 --> 1:01:09.810 the FDA, right, leading to this massive food safety crisis 1:01:09.870 --> 1:01:12.990 that people in like half the country are dealing with. Yeah. 1:01:13.150 --> 1:01:15.050 It's a very easy thing to point to. 1:01:15.090 --> 1:01:15.270 Yeah. 1:01:15.650 --> 1:01:15.870 Yeah. 1:01:16.410 --> 1:01:19.950 You know, I think that's it's great. We should. You're right. 1:01:20.050 --> 1:01:22.830 You're right. It is easy these days to be in 1:01:23.070 --> 1:01:26.860 a echo chamber where all the people who are getting 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:31.160 this information are getting it solely from wellness influencers on 1:01:31.380 --> 1:01:35.160 Instagram or TikTok. They're solely getting it from their news 1:01:35.520 --> 1:01:38.200 station that they listen to, Fox or One News or 1:01:38.220 --> 1:01:40.900 wherever they're getting that stuff from. I think it's great. 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:43.420 And I do appreciate when someone tries to get out 1:01:43.580 --> 1:01:47.880 into that and break through that bubble. I actually did 1:01:47.940 --> 1:01:51.800 watch a clip of Fox talking about AOC in this 1:01:51.860 --> 1:01:54.640 interview and the outreach. And there is a little truth 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:56.840 to it. You can kind of tell that they are 1:01:56.900 --> 1:01:59.280 taking it seriously because I think they know on some 1:01:59.300 --> 1:02:03.209 level that it is a smart strategy. These are like 1:02:03.430 --> 1:02:07.450 easy touch points. I will say, though, I do see 1:02:07.470 --> 1:02:10.350 a little danger in it. And again, this doesn't mean 1:02:10.370 --> 1:02:12.150 we shouldn't do it, but we have to discuss it. 1:02:12.510 --> 1:02:16.000 And there is a little bit of of real danger 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:18.960 to doing this. And you're right. Very few people are saying, Hey, 1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:22.760 we need to capitulate totally on science, but it doesn't 1:02:22.780 --> 1:02:26.130 require that much. What I see, what really bothers me 1:02:26.750 --> 1:02:29.430 is that we just aren't fighting and pushing back on 1:02:29.590 --> 1:02:34.010 all this COVID revisionism that's been happening. And it's because 1:02:34.050 --> 1:02:37.800 it's easier, but like, that's part of what I think 1:02:37.840 --> 1:02:40.380 we need to be doing is while we are making 1:02:40.420 --> 1:02:44.410 these outrows, while we're, someone like AOC is focusing on 1:02:44.450 --> 1:02:48.630 those exact issues, cost of healthcare. They also need to 1:02:48.670 --> 1:02:54.260 be very clear that the science and the vaccines works 1:02:54.450 --> 1:02:58.260 and it's sound. And this COVID revisionism is hard because 1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:00.880 I think a lot of people, doctors, I'm talking about 1:03:00.940 --> 1:03:03.880 public health professionals, they just don't push back on it 1:03:03.920 --> 1:03:06.560 because it's too hard to do. The people that have 1:03:06.620 --> 1:03:08.620 come out with like, oh, see, it was all, we 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:11.420 were all lied to. Fauci lied to us. It's all lies. 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:14.910 And it's just this narrative that is so strong out 1:03:14.950 --> 1:03:17.320 there that people just kind of step away from it. 1:03:17.350 --> 1:03:19.200 And now they're like, hey, well, let's focus on things 1:03:19.220 --> 1:03:22.169 we can focus on. I say, no, let's do that, 1:03:22.210 --> 1:03:24.790 but let's also be very clear that those were not 1:03:24.870 --> 1:03:31.150 all problems. Sure, there wasn't completely perfect practice with Fauci 1:03:31.190 --> 1:03:34.180 and with the rolling out of vaccines and talking about masks. 1:03:34.340 --> 1:03:37.680 Mistakes were made, as oftentimes there is in a novel 1:03:38.100 --> 1:03:40.980 disease crisis. People were moving as fast as they could 1:03:41.020 --> 1:03:44.160 with what information they could, and things weren't perfect. But 1:03:44.500 --> 1:03:48.230 there is this real asymmetry. to what people will tolerate 1:03:48.270 --> 1:03:50.870 with Maha versus what they tolerate from someone like Fauci. 1:03:51.350 --> 1:03:53.810 Like Maha makes mistakes all the time, proven wrong all 1:03:53.850 --> 1:03:55.870 the time, and people forgive them because, oh, they take 1:03:55.950 --> 1:03:59.170 big swings. They're at least trying to help the American 1:03:59.190 --> 1:04:03.080 healthcare system. But then if Fauci made a mistake talking 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:08.100 about masks, then he is the literal devil. So there 1:04:08.140 --> 1:04:11.040 is this asymmetry. We have to be very vocal about that. 1:04:11.420 --> 1:04:14.760 We have to push back on COVID revisionism the same 1:04:15.180 --> 1:04:18.210 exact time We are doing this outreach. And I think 1:04:18.250 --> 1:04:21.090 that I think it's great. There are young people in 1:04:21.150 --> 1:04:26.070 politics like Mamdani and what I see with her that 1:04:26.350 --> 1:04:30.510 are getting really good about staying on target with the messaging. 1:04:30.570 --> 1:04:34.600 I think that is message discipline. Yeah. Message discipline. Yeah. 1:04:35.100 --> 1:04:36.720 I think we're seeing more of it these days, which 1:04:36.780 --> 1:04:38.220 is nice. I agree. 1:04:38.240 --> 1:04:40.360 I agree with everything you say there. And I think 1:04:40.380 --> 1:04:42.800 that all has to be done like in conjunction with 1:04:42.940 --> 1:04:48.200 addressing the base problems that cause people. To be compelled 1:04:48.260 --> 1:04:50.940 by the crazier parts of Maha in the first place. 1:04:51.320 --> 1:04:51.500 Right. 1:04:51.740 --> 1:04:55.130 And this is something that that Vigeland and AOC talked 1:04:55.190 --> 1:04:57.670 about how like Maha charlatans. 1:04:57.870 --> 1:04:58.070 Yeah. 1:04:58.250 --> 1:05:00.630 Have been able to like tap into some issues and 1:05:00.650 --> 1:05:04.169 then manipulate people. Right. Based on their like anxieties around 1:05:04.210 --> 1:05:06.590 our totally broken health care system. Right. They're able to 1:05:06.630 --> 1:05:09.540 tap into this. notion that everyone has that we're all 1:05:09.560 --> 1:05:11.640 being fucked over and our healthcare system is broken. 1:05:11.700 --> 1:05:11.919 Yes. 1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:14.720 And so if it's broken, maybe I'll look for solutions 1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:17.880 outside the healthcare system. Maybe I'll listen to what people 1:05:18.340 --> 1:05:21.710 outside of this industry are saying. And that can lead 1:05:21.750 --> 1:05:24.590 you down some very dangerous roads, as we've been talking about. 1:05:24.610 --> 1:05:25.170 Yeah. 1:05:25.730 --> 1:05:30.330 And this part specifically is why AOC mentioned that she's 1:05:30.390 --> 1:05:34.820 actually been meeting with some Maha advocates and activists. It's 1:05:34.860 --> 1:05:38.890 to understand the issues that they're tapping into. And this 1:05:38.950 --> 1:05:43.230 is like the clip that has sparked this whole discourse. 1:05:43.270 --> 1:05:44.570 And I'll play it here for you in case you 1:05:44.610 --> 1:05:45.650 haven't actually heard the whole thing. 1:05:46.170 --> 1:05:51.230 A lot of them really don't believe that their fight 1:05:51.330 --> 1:05:55.070 is partisan. And it's not in many ways. 1:05:55.370 --> 1:05:57.230 We do have. 1:05:57.180 --> 1:06:02.620 Extraordinary corruption in our agricultural system, in our big corporate 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:08.070 system as well. And This is an area where both 1:06:08.290 --> 1:06:11.320 parties in our entire political system has been compromised. Like 1:06:11.410 --> 1:06:15.520 one of the first things I did was be part 1:06:15.560 --> 1:06:17.060 when I first got to the House was be part 1:06:17.220 --> 1:06:20.540 of these congressional investigations on PFAS dumping. 1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:21.520 Right. 1:06:21.540 --> 1:06:27.280 And you have companies like 3M and others that, you know, 1:06:27.340 --> 1:06:31.040 and this goes back decades where you have a big 1:06:31.160 --> 1:06:34.570 company that is doing manufacturing of some kind. And they 1:06:34.590 --> 1:06:38.550 just dump whatever cancerous byproduct that they have and poison 1:06:38.590 --> 1:06:42.170 communities around them. And then they just pay off our 1:06:42.230 --> 1:06:45.070 political class to ignore it and to let it continue 1:06:45.090 --> 1:06:48.210 to happen or to shield them legally, like with glyphosate, 1:06:49.450 --> 1:06:51.650 from everyday people trying to get that back. 1:06:52.230 --> 1:06:54.320 So that's an example of one of these very real 1:06:54.410 --> 1:06:59.700 issues that then has been used to on-ramp people into 1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:03.680 these much more cultic milieu, kind of dangerous information spaces. 1:07:04.470 --> 1:07:06.830 But it is based on a real material issue. Same 1:07:06.850 --> 1:07:09.730 thing with cost of healthcare, right? If you look at 1:07:09.770 --> 1:07:14.230 that KFF poll that breaks down, what does MAHA people, 1:07:14.310 --> 1:07:16.780 whether they're Republican or Democrats, what do they rank as 1:07:16.800 --> 1:07:21.960 their top issue? Among Republican MAHA voters, the most frequently 1:07:22.060 --> 1:07:25.420 cited top issue was lowering the cost of healthcare, including 1:07:25.460 --> 1:07:29.540 prescription drugs. The second top issue for, again, Republicans, not 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:33.060 just Democrats, but for Republican MAHA voters- was restricting the 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:35.120 use of certain chemical additives in the food supply. 1:07:35.140 --> 1:07:39.570 Right. I mean, the PFAS thing is a very interesting discussion, 1:07:39.620 --> 1:07:43.350 these forever chemicals. I've actually done two episodes on it 1:07:43.430 --> 1:07:47.010 with authors of these really well-researched books on the matter. 1:07:47.150 --> 1:07:50.390 And I still left that with more questions than I 1:07:50.450 --> 1:07:53.790 had answers. And that requires a bit of a nuanced 1:07:53.830 --> 1:07:57.110 conversation on what the real risks are to the general population. 1:07:57.750 --> 1:08:00.780 But I will say this, The more you learn about 1:08:00.860 --> 1:08:03.940 those companies, 3M, she didn't mention it, but DuPont is 1:08:03.960 --> 1:08:06.050 the other big one. There's a number of them. The 1:08:06.090 --> 1:08:08.890 more you learn about them, the more you just realize 1:08:08.950 --> 1:08:11.910 the real villain is... I mean, if anything was going 1:08:11.950 --> 1:08:14.390 to radicalize me, it's that sort of stuff. You learn 1:08:14.430 --> 1:08:17.450 about these corporations. They're truly awful. 1:08:17.689 --> 1:08:17.910 Yeah. 1:08:17.970 --> 1:08:20.660 Truly awful. As a quick aside, you've got to watch 1:08:20.720 --> 1:08:23.280 the show, The Boys. I love it so much. And 1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:27.400 the major reason is it's like a superhero movie. It's 1:08:27.460 --> 1:08:32.400 a superhero show, but really... The villains are the corporations. 1:08:32.620 --> 1:08:36.450 And that's really, I think more Americans should watch that show. 1:08:36.490 --> 1:08:39.110 I think it's super important. Anyways, so you will learn 1:08:39.130 --> 1:08:41.450 about those things, but you learn about the people behind 1:08:41.490 --> 1:08:45.660 those companies. And it's not the people that Maha is 1:08:45.760 --> 1:08:48.020 fighting against right now. It's the people that are currently 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.540 aligned with are the people that are behind these corporations. 1:08:51.939 --> 1:08:54.120 That's the part that gets me. And I don't know 1:08:54.200 --> 1:08:56.410 how to educate them, but that is going to be 1:08:56.470 --> 1:08:59.600 the important thing. If the cost of healthcare and those 1:08:59.660 --> 1:09:03.889 regulations are important to them, then I think we need 1:09:03.900 --> 1:09:08.050 to hammer that as much as possible and get on 1:09:08.070 --> 1:09:10.610 those points. And people like, I hate to say this, 1:09:10.650 --> 1:09:14.860 but people like me and other healthcare people's, We need 1:09:14.900 --> 1:09:17.840 to get into those spaces to have those conversations. But 1:09:17.860 --> 1:09:20.150 we're also not trained to do so because we don't 1:09:20.229 --> 1:09:23.189 have like, if I go on like a talk show 1:09:23.229 --> 1:09:25.890 with RFK Jr. and he gish gallops me, I'm going 1:09:25.910 --> 1:09:28.050 to get pissed and I'm going to like say something 1:09:28.090 --> 1:09:31.150 mean about his voice. And then I'll feel like a jerk. Like, 1:09:31.170 --> 1:09:33.309 you know, like we're not trained. Totally. 1:09:33.430 --> 1:09:36.850 And like, to be completely clear, when I ask, should 1:09:37.170 --> 1:09:41.340 we do outreach? I'm using we in this royal we sense. 1:09:41.479 --> 1:09:44.680 I am not proposing that you or any of the 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:48.770 listeners actually need to go out and do this stuff yourself. 1:09:49.450 --> 1:09:55.110 And I'm certainly not proposing that guesting on Maha podcasts 1:09:55.130 --> 1:09:59.070 or debating on Jubilee to find your common ground is 1:09:59.140 --> 1:10:03.580 the way that we should do outreach at all. Public 1:10:03.680 --> 1:10:06.729 outreach can be done completely on your own terms, either 1:10:07.010 --> 1:10:11.530 through your own social media accounts or your own health 1:10:11.570 --> 1:10:16.110 podcast where you can talk about these issues that Maha 1:10:16.150 --> 1:10:19.439 adjacent people claim to care about, but in an actually 1:10:19.520 --> 1:10:23.960 scientifically backed way. According to KFF, more Maha voters say 1:10:23.979 --> 1:10:26.400 that healthcare costs and food safety will have a major 1:10:26.500 --> 1:10:31.130 impact on their vote than vaccine policy. Which is, I think, 1:10:31.189 --> 1:10:35.340 not something your average blue sky user would be aware of. 1:10:36.780 --> 1:10:41.340 There is this sort of idea of the average maha 1:10:41.420 --> 1:10:45.620 person who's this eugenics-crazed anti-vaxxer. 1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:47.710 And some of them are that, yes. 1:10:48.390 --> 1:10:52.250 But there's also a lot of normie moms who, for 1:10:52.270 --> 1:10:55.530 whatever reason, have had a bad experience with the medical system. 1:10:55.550 --> 1:10:55.650 Right. 1:10:55.900 --> 1:10:57.260 Or maybe they have too much time on their hands 1:10:57.400 --> 1:11:02.680 and they're going into crazy internet rabbit holes. Both are 1:11:02.960 --> 1:11:05.920 things that happen. But there is a lot of kind 1:11:05.960 --> 1:11:08.510 of normal moms who will fall into this stuff because 1:11:08.930 --> 1:11:11.530 they do care about their children's health and they feel 1:11:11.550 --> 1:11:13.830 like the world that their kids are being raised in 1:11:14.530 --> 1:11:17.030 is not one that's actually set up to prioritize the 1:11:17.070 --> 1:11:22.250 health of their kids. And without people, including politicians, speaking 1:11:22.290 --> 1:11:26.210 to that accurately and backed by real science, It opens 1:11:26.229 --> 1:11:28.189 the door to people who will speak to them about 1:11:28.229 --> 1:11:31.700 these concerns, but without that scientific background. And it can 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:35.160 funnel them into these places that are not actually going 1:11:35.180 --> 1:11:37.640 to benefit the health of anyone as we're now living 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:38.900 in the national consequence of. 1:11:38.939 --> 1:11:39.880 You're absolutely right. 1:11:39.900 --> 1:11:42.219 And I recognize that. And it is something that. 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:43.870 I think is important. And that's a big part of 1:11:43.950 --> 1:11:48.860 why I– a simple– country doctor decided to become, you know, 1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:52.040 active online and have a podcast and do this sort 1:11:52.060 --> 1:11:54.019 of stuff because I felt it was a good way 1:11:54.100 --> 1:11:58.120 to fight misinformation and to connect with people. And it 1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:01.720 is very important that we do that. I do think 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:05.730 that's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. I mean, it is hard. 1:12:05.780 --> 1:12:08.670 It's a challenge, a real challenge. But we all can 1:12:08.710 --> 1:12:11.610 find our own ways to do it. And God, I really, 1:12:11.630 --> 1:12:17.660 I hope that these outreaches have some Some positive benefit. 1:12:18.300 --> 1:12:21.180 I become a little bit, and this is not mean 1:12:21.220 --> 1:12:23.300 by my nature, I'm an optimist, but I become a 1:12:23.460 --> 1:12:27.960 little bit pessimistic about the ability to win back some 1:12:27.979 --> 1:12:32.639 of these people with at least the current democratic leadership. Oh, 1:12:32.650 --> 1:12:36.610 I mean, certainly, yes. I'm much more hopeful that with 1:12:36.729 --> 1:12:39.900 the younger people that are much more savvy or net 1:12:39.939 --> 1:12:42.540 savvy and know how to speak to people, I'm much 1:12:42.560 --> 1:12:46.339 more hopeful that they will be able to connect broadly 1:12:47.100 --> 1:12:50.380 on some major level in a way that Chuck Schumer 1:12:50.420 --> 1:12:53.360 never could or care to. I should also say something else. 1:12:53.780 --> 1:12:59.179 I also recognize fully that there are real problems with 1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:02.729 our healthcare system. I am not here to say that like, hey, 1:13:02.870 --> 1:13:05.310 our medical healthcare system is awesome in this country. Why 1:13:05.350 --> 1:13:08.290 would people be dissatisfied? No, people, you're totally right. There 1:13:08.370 --> 1:13:11.570 is real dissatisfaction with our healthcare, the cost of it, 1:13:11.950 --> 1:13:14.400 the delivery of it, the access of it. All these 1:13:14.439 --> 1:13:19.019 things are real. And there are issues that we have 1:13:19.060 --> 1:13:21.400 to show people that we're championing or we're trying to 1:13:21.439 --> 1:13:24.240 champion because there are real problems. And that's why it's working. 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:26.439 It's people are easy. I mean, you're right. There's some 1:13:26.479 --> 1:13:30.240 degree of just bored people like getting down internet like 1:13:30.340 --> 1:13:34.599 conspiracy theories about this stuff. But there's real issues that 1:13:34.700 --> 1:13:38.990 are plaguing our public health care that we need to address. 1:13:39.410 --> 1:13:41.490 And we need to show that we are not. I mean, 1:13:41.530 --> 1:13:43.250 it's so funny. Like I get accused of being like 1:13:43.290 --> 1:13:46.310 a pharma shill all the time because I'm like for vaccines. 1:13:46.710 --> 1:13:49.650 And I'm like, I hate pharma companies more than you. 1:13:49.670 --> 1:13:51.950 I guarantee it. And I have good reason to. Yeah. 1:13:51.970 --> 1:13:53.870 Because I see what they do to patients. And I 1:13:53.890 --> 1:13:56.550 see what they do to the cost of health care. 1:13:56.950 --> 1:14:00.810 So we have to show people that we are on 1:14:00.850 --> 1:14:04.050 their side. And this is the right place to start. Absolutely. 1:14:04.070 --> 1:14:06.769 And that's also something AOC talked about on the majority 1:14:06.810 --> 1:14:11.889 report as a reason why people are getting pulled into Maha. 1:14:12.370 --> 1:14:16.870 My mom's side of the family is evangelical. And I 1:14:17.050 --> 1:14:20.880 see how all of these issues... That have been at 1:14:20.920 --> 1:14:25.450 their surface level expressed as right wing are actually very 1:14:25.550 --> 1:14:30.450 much just the anxieties that we have as working people 1:14:31.729 --> 1:14:35.570 not being able to afford health care. And so it's 1:14:35.630 --> 1:14:39.490 also like, how do I stop being sick? How do 1:14:39.530 --> 1:14:42.360 I prevent being sick by limiting my exposure to things 1:14:42.400 --> 1:14:45.840 that I think are toxic? And then which there are 1:14:45.860 --> 1:14:48.660 things that are actually toxic and things that aren't actually toxic. 1:14:49.790 --> 1:14:52.050 that get taken advantage of? And then also, when I 1:14:52.110 --> 1:14:55.910 do get sick and I can't afford medicine, what are 1:14:56.010 --> 1:15:02.050 the holistic and low-cost alternatives that I can turn to 1:15:02.170 --> 1:15:04.870 because I know that I can't afford to see a doctor? 1:15:05.770 --> 1:15:09.750 So yeah, those were AOC's comments on the majority report, 1:15:09.810 --> 1:15:13.429 which then served as the basis for a Politico piece 1:15:13.750 --> 1:15:18.400 earlier this month, digging into her quote-unquote MAHA outreach. and 1:15:18.620 --> 1:15:22.939 the varieties of issues that she was discussing with Maha advocates. 1:15:23.850 --> 1:15:28.050 This newsletter also clarified the sequence of events in terms 1:15:28.090 --> 1:15:32.730 of why she started this outreach when she did. She 1:15:32.770 --> 1:15:37.030 started this effort last spring ahead of some hearings with 1:15:37.430 --> 1:15:42.910 the EPA head Lee Zeldin. And the political reporting does 1:15:42.990 --> 1:15:46.580 know that AOC, quote, still has significant differences with the 1:15:46.640 --> 1:15:51.479 broader Maha movement, including its vaccine skepticism. But she sees 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:55.420 overlap on things like pesticides, corporate power, and access to 1:15:55.460 --> 1:15:57.980 safe food, according to a person close to AOC, unquote. 1:15:58.460 --> 1:16:03.720 So in spring, her office began specifically working around the 1:16:03.820 --> 1:16:08.280 issue of glyphosate and pesticides and ended up contacting some 1:16:08.580 --> 1:16:14.769 Maha organizers, quote, who together helped FOIA some emails and correspondence, 1:16:15.370 --> 1:16:21.050 which then influenced how AOC addressed and questioned EPA Administrator 1:16:21.310 --> 1:16:24.710 Lee Zeldin. And this produced a lot of viral clips. 1:16:25.450 --> 1:16:28.630 In fact, tens of thousands of lawsuits in the United States, 1:16:29.210 --> 1:16:34.190 many issued by farmers with high exposure, have been filed 1:16:34.250 --> 1:16:38.270 against Bayer for failing to warn them about the cancer 1:16:38.330 --> 1:16:46.180 risk of exposure. Now, interestingly, Administrator Zeldin, on February 18th 1:16:46.540 --> 1:16:50.750 of this year, President Trump released an executive order to 1:16:50.910 --> 1:16:54.049 increase the production of glyphosate in the United States, correct? 1:16:55.530 --> 1:16:55.769 Yes. 1:16:56.710 --> 1:17:00.210 And not only did that executive order call to increase 1:17:00.270 --> 1:17:06.130 the production of glyphosate, it also called for legal immunity 1:17:06.729 --> 1:17:11.100 for Bayer from the tens of thousands of Americans who 1:17:11.160 --> 1:17:15.240 are seeking justice in court for their toxic exposure. 1:17:16.140 --> 1:17:19.320 So a lot of people in the Maha world saw 1:17:19.439 --> 1:17:23.799 clips from this hearing and found them compelling and then thought, 1:17:24.380 --> 1:17:28.620 maybe AOC isn't all that bad. Maybe I could listen 1:17:28.689 --> 1:17:30.830 to some of the stuff that she's talking about. I 1:17:30.870 --> 1:17:34.210 think that is the crux of why she is doing this. 1:17:34.770 --> 1:17:38.900 She can address some of these issues around glyphosate, around 1:17:39.140 --> 1:17:43.480 specifically these internal EPA emails showing that the pharmaceutical company 1:17:43.540 --> 1:17:47.540 Bayer was in communication with the EPA about the then-upcoming 1:17:47.580 --> 1:17:52.000 Supreme Court case regarding the carcinogenic weed killer Roundup. 1:17:52.400 --> 1:17:52.639 Yeah. 1:17:53.340 --> 1:17:58.269 And that Bayer sought information regarding EPA's regulatory review of Roundup. 1:17:58.939 --> 1:18:02.309 And to quote this internal email, quote, Bayer will provide 1:18:02.330 --> 1:18:06.990 a small thanks... for updating the glyphosate webpage from the 1:18:07.110 --> 1:18:09.670 EPA and work on Maha. 1:18:09.990 --> 1:18:10.530 Unquote. 1:18:11.150 --> 1:18:12.759 Insane. An insane thing. 1:18:13.140 --> 1:18:16.979 This glyphosate update that they're referring to seems to be 1:18:17.140 --> 1:18:21.440 correlated to the EPA agency withdrawing its support for California's 1:18:21.540 --> 1:18:25.139 cancer warning on glyphosate. Now, this is important because five 1:18:25.200 --> 1:18:28.810 days after the EPO this year, Bayer filed their opening 1:18:28.900 --> 1:18:30.090 brief to the Supreme. 1:18:29.860 --> 1:18:31.710 Court, citing.... 1:18:32.600 --> 1:18:35.670 Trump's executive order and hinging their case on the EPA's 1:18:35.710 --> 1:18:40.709 warnings or lack thereof of glyphosate. So we have internal 1:18:40.890 --> 1:18:44.790 emails from your agency saying that Bayer wanted to thank 1:18:45.130 --> 1:18:50.560 you and your agency for removing support for California warning 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:55.840 because their case before the Supreme Court right now hinges 1:18:56.380 --> 1:19:00.280 on you not warning the American people and withdrawing your 1:19:00.300 --> 1:19:04.520 support on glyphosate. Do you understand the conflict of interest 1:19:04.540 --> 1:19:06.770 that is before the American people right now, Mr. 1:19:06.810 --> 1:19:07.310 Secretary? 1:19:07.330 --> 1:19:07.689 I understand. 1:19:07.710 --> 1:19:09.850 The gentlelady's time has expired. Thank you. 1:19:10.500 --> 1:19:14.540 So after this sort of viral moment, a few other 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:17.580 people in the Maha world started to get into communication 1:19:17.880 --> 1:19:22.340 with AOC to address issues around pesticides and chemicals, which 1:19:22.500 --> 1:19:27.099 someone close to this situation told Politico were the issues that, quote, 1:19:27.479 --> 1:19:30.750 the traditional left has cared about for decades, unquote. 1:19:31.070 --> 1:19:32.990 Well, I mean, for your listeners also, I should probably mention, 1:19:33.010 --> 1:19:36.460 so In case you're wondering, glyphosate is the weed killer 1:19:36.580 --> 1:19:39.440 in Roundup. And there is this big question about whether 1:19:39.460 --> 1:19:42.460 or not it can cause cancer. And this is something 1:19:42.500 --> 1:19:44.639 that I'm glad that she's addressing this. I think this 1:19:44.740 --> 1:19:47.650 is low hanging fruit and she should. And this is 1:19:47.660 --> 1:19:49.090 the kind of thing we can all agree on. Like 1:19:49.250 --> 1:19:51.130 if there's a chance of it, why not try to 1:19:51.170 --> 1:19:53.469 get rid of it? But it also, I think we 1:19:53.729 --> 1:19:56.590 should be careful because these can be just like PFAS, 1:19:56.990 --> 1:20:01.730 these gateways to greater conspiracy theories. And we should be 1:20:02.170 --> 1:20:04.120 careful about what we do and do not know. We 1:20:04.140 --> 1:20:07.160 should say that, like, the honest answer is, you know, 1:20:07.200 --> 1:20:08.610 we don't know how much of a risk it is 1:20:08.689 --> 1:20:11.610 for cancer. probably a very small risk for people who 1:20:11.710 --> 1:20:14.520 use it rarely. And then a more moderate risk of 1:20:14.560 --> 1:20:17.660 developing non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is the thing that seems to 1:20:17.680 --> 1:20:19.759 be connected to it in people who use it a lot. 1:20:20.200 --> 1:20:23.519 So yeah, it's bad. If there's any way we can 1:20:23.580 --> 1:20:26.350 make sure it's not around and we need to follow 1:20:26.400 --> 1:20:29.210 it and find out how it slipped through the cracks 1:20:29.290 --> 1:20:31.950 of testing. And those are all questions that we need 1:20:31.990 --> 1:20:37.469 to address. But I also would say, let's also caution 1:20:37.750 --> 1:20:40.680 making that our new boogeyman. I would love for the 1:20:40.720 --> 1:20:44.420 people in charge to be adults about the stuff and 1:20:44.460 --> 1:20:47.059 to talk about these things, like what we do actually 1:20:47.100 --> 1:20:51.250 know and don't know and not to score points based 1:20:51.330 --> 1:20:53.689 on just the fact that we want it gone. We should, 1:20:53.750 --> 1:20:56.070 it should be gone. But I mean, like it's, again, 1:20:56.090 --> 1:20:58.050 it's one of these, like we have a lot of 1:20:58.150 --> 1:21:01.790 fish to fry. And if this is what it takes 1:21:01.830 --> 1:21:05.350 to get Maha thinking that she's cool, great. But I 1:21:05.430 --> 1:21:09.769 also have much bigger health related issues that I, would 1:21:09.850 --> 1:21:11.190 love for her to be focused on. 1:21:11.720 --> 1:21:13.540 Yeah, it's like kind of one kernel at a time. 1:21:13.580 --> 1:21:16.260 I mean, this became an issue because of Trump's executive 1:21:16.320 --> 1:21:21.040 orders trying to give companies, you know, complete immunity for 1:21:21.180 --> 1:21:25.650 any possible health risks as a result of people using 1:21:25.689 --> 1:21:28.049 these products. And so, you know, a part of politics 1:21:28.090 --> 1:21:31.230 is both being proactive, but then it's also responding to 1:21:31.330 --> 1:21:34.060 things happening in the world. And this Supreme Court case 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:36.000 was one such instance. 1:21:36.660 --> 1:21:39.780 I'm just saying it's good to score some easy points. 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:43.260 These are layups talking about stuff like this. We should 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:46.430 take care of it. But I also don't want it 1:21:46.470 --> 1:21:47.049 to stop there. 1:21:47.100 --> 1:21:47.320 Sure. 1:21:47.430 --> 1:21:49.479 I don't want this to be like where the limit 1:21:49.520 --> 1:21:51.590 of where our public health discussion ends, you know? 1:22:02.910 --> 1:22:07.320 Something else we learned in this Politico newsletter is exactly 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:11.200 who some of these MAHA advocates are that AOC has 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:15.800 been meeting with. According to Politico, in late July, AOC 1:22:15.820 --> 1:22:20.950 met with Zen Honeycott of Moms Across America, Joe Maxwell 1:22:21.030 --> 1:22:26.930 of Farm Action, and government consultant Emily Steinbridge. Moms Across 1:22:26.970 --> 1:22:31.810 America is a very influential kind of MAHA adjacent organization, 1:22:31.850 --> 1:22:36.030 especially on Facebook. The main four petitions, hosted on the 1:22:36.130 --> 1:22:41.729 Moms Across America website currently, relate to data centers, glyphosate, 1:22:41.870 --> 1:22:47.190 and pesticide manufacturers. There's also pages on independent food testing, 1:22:47.479 --> 1:22:50.840 tox screenings. A whole section of the website is actually 1:22:50.900 --> 1:22:54.140 on data centers. But there are also web pages on 1:22:54.220 --> 1:23:00.050 things like genetically engineered food, EMF wireless radiations, and a 1:23:00.090 --> 1:23:05.110 page promoting vaccine skepticism. The founder, Zen Honeycott, believes that 1:23:05.670 --> 1:23:10.190 autism can be partially caused by childhood vaccines, and claims 1:23:10.250 --> 1:23:15.530 that an organic diet helped her son's autism symptoms. Honeycott 1:23:15.610 --> 1:23:19.269 told Politico that her meeting with AOC was a quote-unquote 1:23:19.490 --> 1:23:25.810 thorough conversation touching on pesticides, PFAS, and environmental health. She's 1:23:25.880 --> 1:23:29.850 quoted in the newsletter saying, quote, I don't agree with socialism, 1:23:30.220 --> 1:23:34.260 and most moms across America also don't. But we do 1:23:34.320 --> 1:23:38.740 believe in corporate responsibility. Even if someone isn't a socialism 1:23:38.900 --> 1:23:41.730 or a conservative, I think we should agree that everyone 1:23:41.770 --> 1:23:46.410 should have access to non-toxic food, unquote. There has also 1:23:46.470 --> 1:23:51.550 been some recognition among certain MAHA figures that a connection 1:23:52.030 --> 1:23:57.700 with AOC could hurt their own access to the Trump administration. 1:23:58.250 --> 1:24:04.269 Vani Hari, the food babe influencer, had, quote-unquote, trepidations about 1:24:04.330 --> 1:24:08.540 meeting with AOC because she, quote, wants access to the 1:24:08.580 --> 1:24:13.960 administration still, according to someone familiar with the matter. Considering 1:24:14.180 --> 1:24:18.840 the variety of beliefs, many harmful, that some of these 1:24:19.000 --> 1:24:23.490 Maha influencers have, I do want to mention a variety 1:24:23.530 --> 1:24:27.590 of the risks of talking to these people. And again, 1:24:27.650 --> 1:24:30.889 to reiterate, I am not arguing that you, the listener, 1:24:31.430 --> 1:24:34.870 do this. I'm not calling on you to debate your 1:24:35.070 --> 1:24:39.290 unpleasant family member about vaccines at Thanksgiving. I'm not saying 1:24:39.330 --> 1:24:42.490 that you have to go on Maha podcasts to argue 1:24:42.550 --> 1:24:46.070 these things. But there are people in positions of power 1:24:46.470 --> 1:24:50.269 whose job it is to navigate politics in this way. 1:24:50.860 --> 1:24:54.019 And there are some real risks from doing that. The 1:24:54.060 --> 1:24:58.440 main one being... capitulating on your values and beliefs for 1:24:58.570 --> 1:25:03.320 political benefit, right? Compromising with people, compromising with, in some cases, like, 1:25:03.340 --> 1:25:08.080 you know, eugenicists in Maha in hopes of winning some votes. 1:25:08.140 --> 1:25:11.280 And I don't believe that's what AOC is doing. But 1:25:11.340 --> 1:25:14.439 for people who are extremely skeptical of like AOC's political motivations, 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:16.300 I can see how that would. 1:25:16.200 --> 1:25:16.860 Be a concern. 1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:21.820 Another risk factor is that in your communications with these people, 1:25:21.939 --> 1:25:26.580 you end up platforming. people with genuinely harmful beliefs, right? 1:25:26.620 --> 1:25:29.320 Stuff that causes active harm to the public health through 1:25:29.640 --> 1:25:32.769 kids not being vaccinated. And by extension, if you end 1:25:32.850 --> 1:25:36.510 up promoting some of the justifications for those anti-vax beliefs, 1:25:36.590 --> 1:25:40.690 which are very dehumanizing against people with autism, sometimes with 1:25:40.729 --> 1:25:45.250 this like soft eugenics component, right? That is a real 1:25:45.850 --> 1:25:50.189 possible danger of talking with people influential people in this world. 1:25:50.689 --> 1:25:54.550 There's also this factor that just by talking with them, 1:25:55.510 --> 1:25:58.290 you might end up legitimizing some of. 1:25:58.250 --> 1:26:01.490 Their crazy beliefs, right? This is an idea that people have. 1:26:02.010 --> 1:26:05.620 My counter to that is that they don't need to 1:26:05.660 --> 1:26:09.880 be further legitimized. Donald Trump is the president. The Republicans 1:26:09.920 --> 1:26:11.920 control the whole of the federal government. 1:26:12.340 --> 1:26:13.820 RFK Jr. runs HHS. 1:26:14.260 --> 1:26:18.240 They have received institutional legitimation already. 1:26:18.640 --> 1:26:21.880 Yeah, right. You're right. It's not about you can't platform 1:26:21.900 --> 1:26:24.700 these people. These people are the platform at this point. 1:26:24.820 --> 1:26:27.150 And AOC's not platforming these people. 1:26:27.510 --> 1:26:30.690 She isn't telling her followers or supporters to seek out 1:26:30.750 --> 1:26:34.729 these Baja activists. She isn't live streaming with them. She's 1:26:34.770 --> 1:26:39.729 doing outreach in private to pull people from their side, 1:26:40.330 --> 1:26:42.070 maybe back towards reality. 1:26:42.310 --> 1:26:44.550 And I think it's working. I think it's actually working 1:26:44.630 --> 1:26:46.730 for her, at least. I mean, assuming that this is 1:26:46.770 --> 1:26:50.040 going to be for a potential presidential run, or at 1:26:50.080 --> 1:26:53.280 least for some sort of political maneuvering, for whatever reason 1:26:53.320 --> 1:26:56.429 she's doing it, I think as long as she's able 1:26:56.560 --> 1:27:01.410 to collaborate with clear boundaries, addressing the legitimate concerns like 1:27:01.689 --> 1:27:07.470 the PFAS, pesticide exposures, cost of healthcare, while really clearly 1:27:07.550 --> 1:27:11.870 addressing the scientifically unsupported claims like these these chronic disease things, 1:27:11.910 --> 1:27:15.809 the soft eugenics, the vaccine narratives. I think that's important. 1:27:16.030 --> 1:27:19.229 But what's important to me, though, those have to be 1:27:19.430 --> 1:27:23.309 vocally addressed. Because like I was saying before, with all 1:27:23.370 --> 1:27:26.650 these people that have been pushing these COVID revisionist thoughts, 1:27:27.220 --> 1:27:30.960 like just letting those people say those things without responding, 1:27:31.479 --> 1:27:37.200 it does build this narrative overall that COVID vaccines were 1:27:37.220 --> 1:27:40.410 a mistake and that they're dangerous, etc., We have to 1:27:40.870 --> 1:27:44.310 not just, you know, focus on things that we agree on, 1:27:44.450 --> 1:27:47.269 but she has to clearly set boundaries and say that 1:27:47.490 --> 1:27:49.410 the things we did were really good. The one good 1:27:49.430 --> 1:27:52.910 thing that Trump ever is connected to really in my perspective. 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:59.010 is Operation Warp Speed, the worst name for a vaccine 1:27:59.050 --> 1:28:02.290 project that you could have made. But still, you know, 1:28:02.810 --> 1:28:05.990 we have to be really clear about those two things. 1:28:06.050 --> 1:28:08.690 And I think if she can do that, that's great. 1:28:08.910 --> 1:28:11.930 And people should take the lead. And I'm going to 1:28:11.970 --> 1:28:13.910 get hurt for saying some of this, because I know 1:28:13.930 --> 1:28:17.170 a lot of my, you know, doctor friends, public health 1:28:17.229 --> 1:28:20.830 friends who have a much different perspective about MAHA and 1:28:21.600 --> 1:28:24.599 don't feel there's really any benefit to talking with them 1:28:24.700 --> 1:28:28.020 for all the reasons that you mentioned. Maybe I'll get there. 1:28:28.080 --> 1:28:30.050 I'm not there right now. I'm just not. I feel 1:28:30.060 --> 1:28:31.360 like we need to be able to connect. 1:28:31.770 --> 1:28:33.770 I mean, yeah, I would like to kind of touch 1:28:33.770 --> 1:28:35.410 on that for a sec, because like there is this 1:28:35.550 --> 1:28:39.800 idea that you can maybe ignore the problem away. 1:28:39.820 --> 1:28:40.280 Right. 1:28:40.479 --> 1:28:43.019 That instead of, instead of trying to talk to these people, 1:28:43.380 --> 1:28:45.000 we just want them to go away. So you should 1:28:45.040 --> 1:28:48.400 not acknowledge them. You should not, you should just pretend 1:28:48.439 --> 1:28:50.019 they aren't there until they go away. 1:28:50.040 --> 1:28:53.660 Yeah. How well has that strategy worked for us thus far? 1:28:53.680 --> 1:28:56.980 Has it, has it worked that well? Has it worked 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:58.509 that well? It has, it has. 1:28:58.689 --> 1:29:02.490 And, To me, this idea that you can just not 1:29:02.650 --> 1:29:05.850 acknowledge this whole problem is just like a rejection of 1:29:06.290 --> 1:29:08.920 politics to me. Like, that is just rejecting what politics is. 1:29:08.930 --> 1:29:11.250 And again, I'm not saying that you have to do this. 1:29:12.130 --> 1:29:15.640 But to say that our solution is going to be 1:29:16.020 --> 1:29:19.900 just making fun of them until they go away, to me, 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:24.340 that feels like a kind of liberal bourgeois position from 1:29:24.400 --> 1:29:28.410 someone with enough privilege to just reject politics real politics 1:29:28.910 --> 1:29:32.410 through pretending that a very big group of people simply 1:29:32.510 --> 1:29:37.080 do not exist. And I don't think that's how we're 1:29:37.100 --> 1:29:39.320 going to get ourselves out of this problem. And when 1:29:39.340 --> 1:29:43.320 I said this online, someone said, well, yeah, but I mean, 1:29:43.500 --> 1:29:46.179 if you're going to talk about real politics, real politics 1:29:46.240 --> 1:29:48.320 is when I asked my dad to see a doctor 1:29:48.340 --> 1:29:50.940 about his stomach problems. And he said he's not going to, 1:29:50.979 --> 1:29:52.870 and he's just going to use cod liver oil. 1:29:52.890 --> 1:29:53.430 Yeah. 1:29:53.550 --> 1:29:55.660 The one trick that I don't want you to know. 1:29:55.680 --> 1:29:58.040 I personally don't want you to know that, folks. You're 1:29:58.060 --> 1:29:59.180 going to put me out of business. 1:29:59.460 --> 1:30:01.940 And like, that's a huge problem. Like, that is a 1:30:02.020 --> 1:30:06.030 huge problem that someone's dad said that. But that problem 1:30:06.090 --> 1:30:08.810 won't be solved by ignoring the problem. 1:30:09.010 --> 1:30:10.110 Correct. Right? 1:30:10.310 --> 1:30:12.890 This is the end point of what we're trying to 1:30:12.930 --> 1:30:17.050 do is reach people who have this reaction. And that's 1:30:17.070 --> 1:30:21.470 going to require massive health care reforms and building public 1:30:21.490 --> 1:30:24.670 trust in state capacity and in our ability to actually 1:30:24.689 --> 1:30:28.340 help people. And this is going to be a long-term project. 1:30:28.360 --> 1:30:30.840 I'm not saying this is going to be fixed by 2028, 1:30:30.840 --> 1:30:33.460 but towards the end of this Politico article, there's a 1:30:33.460 --> 1:30:36.780 really interesting quote. Quote, AOC's outreach comes at a moment 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:38.460 when the Maha vote itself appears to be up for 1:30:38.500 --> 1:30:42.240 grabs ahead of the 28th presidential election amid ongoing frustrations 1:30:42.320 --> 1:30:46.350 with the Trump administration. Alex Clark, a Turning Point USA 1:30:46.390 --> 1:30:49.729 personality and the host of the health and wellness podcast, 1:30:49.830 --> 1:30:55.250 Culture Apothecary, told Politico she's, quote, certainly concerned about the 1:30:55.290 --> 1:30:59.570 possibility of the influential bloc of voters slipping away. Clark 1:30:59.610 --> 1:31:03.410 said she's already seeing interest in AOC among her own 1:31:03.530 --> 1:31:08.880 viewers after AOC began publicly talking about pesticides. Clark said 1:31:09.020 --> 1:31:13.380 audience members sent her clips with reactions along the lines of, wow, 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:17.990 this is crazy. Agree with AOC? To quote Clark, Maha 1:31:18.050 --> 1:31:21.229 voters are not Republican. And this sort of movement points 1:31:21.250 --> 1:31:22.769 to why I think it might be a good idea 1:31:22.830 --> 1:31:25.189 for someone like AOC to talk to some of these 1:31:25.210 --> 1:31:28.840 people and disrupt the pipeline from the alternative health industry into. 1:31:41.229 --> 1:31:42.010 Give them an off ramp. 1:31:42.410 --> 1:31:45.059 Give them an off ramp because the alternative is that 1:31:45.080 --> 1:31:47.720 they're just going to get even more insular into this 1:31:47.780 --> 1:31:51.740 world of conspiracism and eventually like eugenic style fascism. So 1:31:52.080 --> 1:31:54.780 for someone who's doing outreach, you have to first like 1:31:54.820 --> 1:31:58.559 figure out what the variety of concerns are that are 1:31:58.780 --> 1:32:00.320 held by these big groups, right? 1:32:00.360 --> 1:32:01.780 Where do these concerns come from? 1:32:02.220 --> 1:32:04.839 And if there's any overlap between some of the material 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:09.130 concerns that they actually have with scientifically based environmental issues 1:32:09.189 --> 1:32:13.950 or left-wing critiques of corporate interests. And this might lead 1:32:13.970 --> 1:32:15.880 someone to kind of question, okay, but then why would 1:32:15.910 --> 1:32:19.020 you do outreach to influencers and leaders of Maha rather 1:32:19.040 --> 1:32:22.700 than just regular normie moms? Well, AOC is also doing 1:32:22.740 --> 1:32:26.140 that through her own social media channels. But how do 1:32:26.160 --> 1:32:29.390 you think she can reach normie moms in the first 1:32:29.439 --> 1:32:31.430 place who are very bubbled, right? Who are in their 1:32:31.510 --> 1:32:34.710 own information silos. It is through, you know, talking with 1:32:34.750 --> 1:32:37.630 some of these movement leaders in private that can help 1:32:37.670 --> 1:32:41.730 you learn about their political operation, about how their ideas 1:32:41.770 --> 1:32:44.790 are disseminated, what their leaders believe, what their followers believe, 1:32:45.090 --> 1:32:48.000 the range of their politics and like what's exactly being sold. 1:32:48.380 --> 1:32:50.439 And also you can learn things that they might only 1:32:50.520 --> 1:32:51.299 say in private. 1:32:51.320 --> 1:32:52.019 Yeah. 1:32:52.140 --> 1:32:54.960 All of that information can help inform how to target 1:32:55.060 --> 1:32:58.580 regular people. which AOC does from time to time on Instagram, 1:32:58.900 --> 1:33:01.559 and also through visits to data centers, which get picked 1:33:01.640 --> 1:33:05.759 up on local news coverage. And these Maha influencers command 1:33:06.220 --> 1:33:09.150 very large audiences that ordinarily would not be exposed to 1:33:09.189 --> 1:33:12.910 the substance of what AOC's politics actually are, but now 1:33:13.010 --> 1:33:15.490 they might be. And if AOC can position herself as 1:33:15.530 --> 1:33:17.730 a figure that someone in the Maha world can go 1:33:17.810 --> 1:33:21.540 to for takes outside their regular bubble... Ideally, over time, 1:33:21.600 --> 1:33:24.000 she might be able to off-road them away from the 1:33:24.020 --> 1:33:27.160 crazy stuff towards health policies that actually make us healthier. 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:30.229 And I think there really is value in attempting to 1:33:30.280 --> 1:33:34.330 pull these followers away from the Maha side and educate 1:33:34.390 --> 1:33:38.920 them on real harms being perpetuated by people profit-seeking industries. 1:33:38.979 --> 1:33:42.430 And part of a politician's job is learning how to 1:33:42.490 --> 1:33:46.410 talk to people, right? Talking to these politically lost parents 1:33:46.430 --> 1:33:48.790 who have concerns about the health of their kids might 1:33:48.870 --> 1:33:53.880 mean different things than talking to a leftist, right? AOC 1:33:53.900 --> 1:33:56.420 has to learn, or anyone has to learn how to 1:33:56.500 --> 1:34:00.080 talk to different types of people. And building a base 1:34:00.100 --> 1:34:04.300 that's capable, a coalition, a majoritarian coalition that's capable of 1:34:04.500 --> 1:34:08.920 challenging capital, challenging these big corporations, will mean talking to 1:34:08.960 --> 1:34:11.460 people that you disagree with or might even have some 1:34:11.500 --> 1:34:16.630 harmful beliefs. This happens in unions all the time, right? 1:34:16.689 --> 1:34:20.750 There's people in working class unions who might believe some 1:34:20.790 --> 1:34:24.349 things that are bad. But if you're going to build 1:34:24.390 --> 1:34:26.770 worker power, you're going to have to talk with them 1:34:26.890 --> 1:34:30.650 and maybe then through the process of building solidarity, you 1:34:30.670 --> 1:34:33.310 can address some of those harmful beliefs that they have. 1:34:33.400 --> 1:34:36.099 Once you have that solidarity kind of built, once you 1:34:36.140 --> 1:34:39.280 realize you actually do have shared interests and these sorts 1:34:39.300 --> 1:34:42.120 of harmful beliefs are actually working against those shared interests. 1:34:42.360 --> 1:34:45.260 Agreed. We need a bigger tent. I mean, people who 1:34:45.320 --> 1:34:47.240 want to make these fights, we need as big a 1:34:47.260 --> 1:34:49.780 tent as we can. I agree with that. This is 1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:51.930 the same thing with the data center battle, right? Yeah. 1:34:52.160 --> 1:34:55.910 Like that has a lot of conservatives supporting it. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. 1:34:55.970 --> 1:34:58.430 And it's a very interesting topic to bring up along 1:34:58.470 --> 1:35:00.270 with the same thing. I, you know, with the same 1:35:00.689 --> 1:35:04.549 people whose perspectives on this, how it aligns with MAHA 1:35:04.630 --> 1:35:06.950 and how that aligns with the greater MAGA picture is 1:35:06.979 --> 1:35:10.920 really interesting. And you're exactly right. It's about listening, about 1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:13.980 being empathetic for what it's worth. There are studies that 1:35:14.060 --> 1:35:18.059 show if you want to change public opinion on healthcare 1:35:18.080 --> 1:35:20.920 and the healthcare infrastructure, that's what is required. And what 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:24.440 does seem to work is listening, showing empathy. It is 1:35:24.520 --> 1:35:27.960 difficult to scale is really the issue. That's the kind 1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:31.370 of thing that is a challenge To scale, but it 1:35:31.490 --> 1:35:35.100 is exactly what you're talking about. It's coalition building whenever 1:35:35.110 --> 1:35:38.380 you can. And we're at a crisis moment where I 1:35:38.400 --> 1:35:40.820 think that's necessary. And when we talk about, I talk about, 1:35:40.840 --> 1:35:43.660 you know, building a bigger tent. For me, that means 1:35:43.720 --> 1:35:46.059 we're bringing in these people, but it doesn't mean abandoning 1:35:46.100 --> 1:35:46.780 the other things. 1:35:47.450 --> 1:35:53.110 Our tent does have rules. Our tent has rules for 1:35:53.130 --> 1:35:56.070 its continued operation. And if you're going to come in 1:35:56.110 --> 1:35:59.090 here and start assaulting people in our tent, if you're 1:35:59.110 --> 1:36:01.150 going to start, you know, hitting down the stick. 1:36:01.170 --> 1:36:05.560 Throwing trans kids under the bus for it. Yeah, then 1:36:05.760 --> 1:36:08.229 our tent should not be for those people. I agree. No. 1:36:09.060 --> 1:36:11.759 But there is legitimate problems that if the left doesn't 1:36:12.700 --> 1:36:16.360 address in actually substantive ways, which the right can never 1:36:16.420 --> 1:36:19.240 do because the right's whole ideology is very contradictory. They 1:36:19.280 --> 1:36:21.320 have these kind of populist maha things that they can 1:36:21.340 --> 1:36:24.479 never actually fulfill, as you see with the Trump administration. 1:36:24.820 --> 1:36:30.230 But there is some legitimate issues or anxieties that motivate issues, 1:36:30.270 --> 1:36:31.250 both legitimate and not. 1:36:31.270 --> 1:36:31.370 Yeah. 1:36:32.860 --> 1:36:35.920 If the left doesn't address those, then we give the 1:36:36.080 --> 1:36:38.900 opening to the right to sell crazy bullshit. 1:36:38.939 --> 1:36:42.099 Yes. And like, that is the thing that needs to 1:36:42.140 --> 1:36:43.600 be disrupted. 1:36:43.620 --> 1:36:45.479 Yes. To kind of show my cards at the end here, 1:36:45.600 --> 1:36:47.340 the reason why I kind of like care about this 1:36:47.900 --> 1:36:50.600 is because like, I grew up with like a crunchy mom. 1:36:50.900 --> 1:36:54.970 I'll use that kind of terminology. And I have seen 1:36:55.090 --> 1:36:58.890 her shift politically to the left over. 1:36:59.170 --> 1:36:59.810 The years, right? 1:36:59.830 --> 1:37:02.590 Like, if Maha was a thing 20 years ago, she 1:37:02.610 --> 1:37:05.729 would have been like a Maha person. It's all the 1:37:05.770 --> 1:37:09.380 same types of stuff around like some legitimate issues, some 1:37:09.420 --> 1:37:13.360 kind of borderline issues, like is organic food necessarily better 1:37:13.439 --> 1:37:15.120 than non-organic tomato? 1:37:15.520 --> 1:37:16.340 Maybe, maybe not. 1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:20.320 And then also vaccine hesitancy. That was a big thing 1:37:20.380 --> 1:37:23.979 in my family. And I saw my mom change her 1:37:24.060 --> 1:37:28.250 opinions as I grew up. And for me, it can 1:37:28.270 --> 1:37:34.380 be really sad to see... so many people assume that 1:37:34.500 --> 1:37:38.720 large swaths of just regular people must have to be 1:37:38.760 --> 1:37:45.960 these completely unreachable lunatics. Not all Maha-sympathetic people are crazy anti-vaxxers, 1:37:46.280 --> 1:37:51.270 but there are some. And even those people, I think, 1:37:51.310 --> 1:37:54.269 are still people that should be reached. I'm not saying 1:37:54.290 --> 1:37:56.330 that you have to do that. I'm not saying that 1:37:56.950 --> 1:38:00.210 AOC doing a congressional hearing is going to do that immediately. 1:38:00.900 --> 1:38:03.720 But when you start writing off so many people as 1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:07.460 just like beyond saving, then again, you have kind of 1:38:07.560 --> 1:38:08.720 given up on politics. 1:38:08.960 --> 1:38:09.120 Yeah. 1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:11.500 We are still responsible for those people. 1:38:11.740 --> 1:38:11.900 Yeah. 1:38:12.260 --> 1:38:15.019 We are still responsible for those people's public health. Even 1:38:15.040 --> 1:38:17.600 the people who don't believe in vaccines, I feel responsible 1:38:17.700 --> 1:38:20.930 for their health. So that's really well said. And it 1:38:20.970 --> 1:38:23.110 gives you an interesting perspective on it. And it's good. 1:38:23.130 --> 1:38:27.210 And I think if most of us really think about it, 1:38:27.250 --> 1:38:29.850 we probably have someone in our lives like that as well. 1:38:30.410 --> 1:38:32.930 A lot of your listeners probably are people who grew 1:38:33.010 --> 1:38:35.560 up with parents who have pretty different ideas. Some of 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:37.500 them probably haven't shifted that much, but a lot of 1:38:37.520 --> 1:38:39.780 them probably have. There's someone in your life that probably 1:38:39.820 --> 1:38:43.099 has shifted over time. I think it's important that we 1:38:43.160 --> 1:38:45.560 keep trying to. I mean, these are people that we 1:38:45.620 --> 1:38:47.300 have to, to some degree. I think the bottom line 1:38:47.320 --> 1:38:50.930 is we have to keep communicating with And we have 1:38:50.950 --> 1:38:52.870 to show that we're listening. And it doesn't matter how 1:38:52.910 --> 1:38:56.710 much we know if it doesn't show that we care. 1:38:56.729 --> 1:39:00.900 And that's super cheesy, but it is true. And I 1:39:00.939 --> 1:39:04.040 think that's at the core of what AOC is doing. 1:39:04.520 --> 1:39:06.760 And again, I don't know her politics that well. I 1:39:06.760 --> 1:39:08.860 haven't followed her that closely, but she seems pretty savvy. 1:39:09.220 --> 1:39:11.960 And I feel like that empathy thing she nails. And 1:39:11.979 --> 1:39:14.090 I think that's great. And I think that's probably something 1:39:14.130 --> 1:39:16.510 more of us need to do, more politicians should be doing. 1:39:17.390 --> 1:39:20.640 The empathy aspect is fascinating. really important. 1:39:21.140 --> 1:39:24.480 And of course, something that just doesn't get encouraged on 1:39:24.760 --> 1:39:28.080 social media because of the way those platforms are structured 1:39:28.100 --> 1:39:30.840 and the way the algorithms work. But in trying to 1:39:31.060 --> 1:39:35.720 answer this question of should we, the royal we, do 1:39:35.880 --> 1:39:38.780 outreach to Maha people, I think we first really need 1:39:38.800 --> 1:39:42.969 to ask ourselves, do we actually want to understand this 1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:46.400 problem or Or do we just want to feel superior 1:39:46.590 --> 1:39:49.750 to anti-vaxxers? Because if we just want to feel better 1:39:49.770 --> 1:39:53.610 than other people, then yeah, ignoring the issue and just 1:39:53.729 --> 1:39:56.910 making fun of these people online, that's enough to fulfill 1:39:56.930 --> 1:39:58.979 your goal. But if your goal is to actually address 1:39:58.990 --> 1:40:01.720 these problems and their root causes, you're going to actually 1:40:01.740 --> 1:40:04.939 have to try to understand the diffuse nature of Maha, 1:40:05.360 --> 1:40:08.100 the variety of issues it tries to address, and the 1:40:08.160 --> 1:40:12.280 anxieties it feeds on. Because if you don't, your understanding 1:40:12.340 --> 1:40:15.559 of the people in Maha will not just be incomplete, 1:40:16.140 --> 1:40:20.200 but politically useless. A lot of regular people in the 1:40:20.240 --> 1:40:24.920 world don't vote or shape their beliefs based on deeply 1:40:25.080 --> 1:40:31.020 held ideological or partisan conviction, but through trying to respond 1:40:31.100 --> 1:40:34.840 to the material conditions in their lives. Now, sometimes that 1:40:34.900 --> 1:40:37.990 means they may get tricked by a con man. And 1:40:38.050 --> 1:40:40.830 it's really easy to just laugh and shame those people 1:40:41.270 --> 1:40:44.430 as gullible fools. But like, how is that useful? Or 1:40:44.470 --> 1:40:48.010 is it just a way to make yourself feel superior 1:40:48.189 --> 1:40:52.610 amidst a public crisis? It's worth remembering that one out 1:40:52.650 --> 1:40:58.170 of 10 Mamdani voters voted for Trump in 2024. And 1:40:58.229 --> 1:41:03.070 Mamdani started his campaign by talking with Trump voters in 1:41:03.110 --> 1:41:05.519 the Bronx on Fordham Road. That was like his first 1:41:06.050 --> 1:41:10.970 campaign video in November of 2024 after the presidential election. 1:41:11.950 --> 1:41:15.320 Rebuilding faith in public health will take a long time. 1:41:15.340 --> 1:41:16.260 Oh, boy. 1:41:16.439 --> 1:41:18.900 I think passing universal health care would be a huge 1:41:18.979 --> 1:41:20.440 step towards that. 1:41:20.920 --> 1:41:23.120 Having people occupying. 1:41:23.080 --> 1:41:25.640 The government that is actually transparent, doesn't just lie about 1:41:25.660 --> 1:41:29.880 being transparent, will be steps towards that goal. And I 1:41:29.900 --> 1:41:33.620 guess I hope to see that goal one day. even 1:41:33.689 --> 1:41:35.370 if it is not right now. But you know what 1:41:35.390 --> 1:41:38.650 you can do right now is listen to House of 1:41:38.710 --> 1:41:42.350 Pod if you want some real information about public health. 1:41:42.790 --> 1:41:45.030 You sure can. As soon as you're done listening to this, 1:41:45.070 --> 1:41:47.070 and I mean including the ads that come at the 1:41:47.110 --> 1:41:49.610 end of this podcast, once you're done listening to all 1:41:49.650 --> 1:41:52.210 of those, then go listen to my podcast, The House 1:41:52.270 --> 1:41:54.700 of Pod. where we talk about a lot of these 1:41:54.740 --> 1:41:56.939 same issues. I bring on experts from all kinds of 1:41:56.960 --> 1:41:59.920 different fields because I don't know everything about medicine, although 1:41:59.939 --> 1:42:02.720 I am pretty smart. I don't know everything. So I 1:42:02.780 --> 1:42:04.900 bring on people smarter than me whenever I can. And 1:42:04.920 --> 1:42:10.280 we'll cover things from wellness grifters, Dr. Oz, Peter Attia, 1:42:10.740 --> 1:42:13.930 more obscure people that you probably haven't heard of, to 1:42:14.030 --> 1:42:18.270 what RFK Jr. is currently doing to our healthcare infrastructure. 1:42:18.910 --> 1:42:22.680 And it's a pretty fun show. It's not too science-y. 1:42:22.729 --> 1:42:25.000 So I think if you like this podcast, there's a 1:42:25.060 --> 1:42:27.099 very good chance you're going to like the House of Pod. Also, 1:42:27.380 --> 1:42:29.280 if I may plug, I have a new podcast coming 1:42:29.340 --> 1:42:31.719 out that I'm very excited about. It's a little different. 1:42:32.100 --> 1:42:34.840 It is called Persian of Interest. It's going to be 1:42:35.020 --> 1:42:38.320 a Persian history podcast. It's going to take a look 1:42:38.340 --> 1:42:43.179 at stories of Persian contributions to the arts, to music, 1:42:43.240 --> 1:42:46.349 to philosophy. Going to look at stories that Persians have 1:42:46.410 --> 1:42:49.870 largely been written out of or minimized in where the 1:42:49.890 --> 1:42:52.090 role is more prominent. And I think it's going to 1:42:52.110 --> 1:42:54.390 be a lot of fun. So stay tuned for Persian 1:42:54.450 --> 1:42:56.760 of Interest as well, which should be coming out at 1:42:56.770 --> 1:42:57.439 the end of this month. 1:42:57.910 --> 1:42:59.760 Thank you so much for coming on and talking about 1:42:59.860 --> 1:43:05.020 a very, very challenging topic for, geez, an hour. 1:43:05.300 --> 1:43:07.580 Bring me back in like a month and let me 1:43:07.600 --> 1:43:11.080 see if I'm still feeling as open to talking to Maha. 1:43:11.580 --> 1:43:12.439 Will do. Thank you. 1:43:22.689 --> 1:43:25.350 Hello, everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My 1:43:25.370 --> 1:43:28.190 name is Dana Elkurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of 1:43:28.330 --> 1:43:31.350 Arab and Palestinian politics. Today's episode is going to be 1:43:31.410 --> 1:43:33.389 about the role of the U.S. in the Middle East 1:43:34.070 --> 1:43:37.980 and the debate around that that's happening in D.C. and 1:43:38.140 --> 1:43:41.820 policy circles at the moment. Very smart people are debating 1:43:42.120 --> 1:43:45.099 because of the Trump administration's disastrous policies, including the war 1:43:45.120 --> 1:43:50.820 on Iran, whether Washington's decades-long position as essentially top dog 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:54.380 in the Middle East is just died, or is dying, 1:43:54.780 --> 1:43:58.180 or was never quite what everybody said it was. So 1:43:58.439 --> 1:43:59.860 here it is. I'm going to give you the definitive 1:43:59.979 --> 1:44:01.920 answer on what the role of the U.S. in the 1:44:01.939 --> 1:44:06.639 Middle East is and is going to be. Okay, just kidding. Obviously, 1:44:07.060 --> 1:44:09.099 what I would want might piss a lot of people off, 1:44:09.140 --> 1:44:11.549 but I'm going to summarize for you what the debate is. 1:44:12.290 --> 1:44:15.630 So the different arguments that capture this debate can be 1:44:15.650 --> 1:44:18.930 encapsulated in the next three sentences. They were published within 1:44:18.950 --> 1:44:24.200 a serious, well-credentialed people who studied the Middle East for 1:44:24.220 --> 1:44:28.930 a living. So the first sentence is, quote, Outsiders continue 1:44:28.939 --> 1:44:31.170 to play their balance of power games within the borders 1:44:31.210 --> 1:44:34.350 of weak Arab states. Overall, the Middle East emerging out 1:44:34.370 --> 1:44:36.790 of this upheaval looks a lot like the one that 1:44:36.830 --> 1:44:40.879 existed before. The second sentence is, quote, The American Middle 1:44:40.920 --> 1:44:45.120 East is finished. And the third sentence is, quote, It 1:44:45.180 --> 1:44:47.700 is no longer possible to talk about a U.S.-led order 1:44:47.740 --> 1:44:50.450 in the Middle East. These are all from articles published 1:44:50.490 --> 1:44:53.070 in Foreign Affairs or directly on the Council on Foreign 1:44:53.090 --> 1:44:56.910 Relations website by Greg Goss, Mark Lynch, and Stephen Cook. 1:44:57.700 --> 1:44:59.840 They're all looking at the same set of facts and 1:44:59.880 --> 1:45:04.200 arriving at some opposed conclusions about whether something around the U.S. 1:45:04.220 --> 1:45:07.680 role has actually ended. I think there's a lot here 1:45:07.780 --> 1:45:12.480 that is accurate and worthy of engagement, but the focus 1:45:12.540 --> 1:45:15.160 for me is a little off. Not because they're wrong 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:18.480 about the facts. The facts are mostly right. It's because... 1:45:18.660 --> 1:45:22.740 The question of, is the order over, misses how the 1:45:22.810 --> 1:45:25.750 order functioned to some degree, and that its functioning was 1:45:25.830 --> 1:45:28.750 predicated not just on a tolerance of repression, but the 1:45:29.310 --> 1:45:34.009 generation of authoritarianism. So these scholars and analysts do acknowledge 1:45:34.070 --> 1:45:35.980 the impact on people in the Middle East to some degree. 1:45:36.060 --> 1:45:40.280 They reference what happened in Gaza and Lebanon and other places. 1:45:40.400 --> 1:45:42.900 But I think the scope of the American impact on 1:45:42.920 --> 1:45:47.099 the region isn't necessarily emphasized enough. Just in the last year, 1:45:47.200 --> 1:45:49.590 hundreds of Iranians have been killed in the war. The 1:45:49.630 --> 1:45:52.130 Lebanese have been displaced for like the third or fourth time. 1:45:52.430 --> 1:45:54.830 In 20 years by a war they didn't start and 1:45:55.150 --> 1:45:57.990 they can't seem to end. And Palestinians continue to die 1:45:58.090 --> 1:46:01.270 even during a so-called ceasefire. And these are referenced sometimes 1:46:01.330 --> 1:46:03.229 in the discussion. So they do talk about that in 1:46:03.470 --> 1:46:07.660 these articles. But when policy people reference these things, they 1:46:07.700 --> 1:46:11.220 reference them as kind of casualty figures on the way 1:46:11.260 --> 1:46:14.350 to maybe a bigger argument about primacy. And I think 1:46:14.390 --> 1:46:17.480 this captures kind of what's off about the discussion and 1:46:17.490 --> 1:46:22.320 encapsulates maybe how the American order works. As I've argued 1:46:22.720 --> 1:46:27.260 endlessly before, talking about this American order ending misses the point. 1:46:27.920 --> 1:46:29.820 For the people who actually live in the region, there 1:46:29.840 --> 1:46:32.050 was never a legitimate order there to lose in the 1:46:32.060 --> 1:46:32.509 first place. 1:46:33.530 --> 1:46:33.730 And U.S. 1:46:34.110 --> 1:46:37.330 Hegemony, key to the quote unquote liberal order that people 1:46:37.350 --> 1:46:40.740 are now talking about saving, was established in on the 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:43.520 Middle East being the way it was, and sustaining American 1:46:43.560 --> 1:46:46.580 hegemony all these years. Okay, so let's start with the 1:46:46.600 --> 1:46:49.990 article by Greg Goss titled The New Old Middle East 1:46:50.630 --> 1:46:55.790 and subtitled Wars of Sound and Fury. His argument is essentially, yes, 1:46:55.910 --> 1:46:59.470 the last three years have been transformative looking. The U.S. 1:46:59.490 --> 1:47:02.880 and Israel fought an actual direct war against Iran. Iran's 1:47:02.920 --> 1:47:06.160 supreme leader of 36 years is dead. Bashar al-Assad in 1:47:06.200 --> 1:47:09.939 Syria is gone. Hezbollah has been decimated. Gaza has been flattened. 1:47:10.500 --> 1:47:15.400 These are all real, all enormous impacts. But, and this 1:47:15.439 --> 1:47:18.339 is his real point, none of it changed the underlying structure. 1:47:19.300 --> 1:47:21.519 So outside powers are still playing a balance of power 1:47:21.560 --> 1:47:25.740 game inside weak Arab states. The Iranian-Israeli conflict is still 1:47:25.780 --> 1:47:29.349 unresolved and the Palestinian question is still unresolved. And the U.S. 1:47:29.410 --> 1:47:31.670 is still stuck in the position it's occupied for years now, 1:47:31.710 --> 1:47:35.630 which is characterized as unable to actually order the region 1:47:35.650 --> 1:47:38.490 the way it wants, but too enmeshed to leave. So 1:47:38.550 --> 1:47:40.910 his evidence is strong. You know, Iran, despite losing its 1:47:40.930 --> 1:47:45.410 senior leadership, despite watching their, you know, infrastructure get pounded, 1:47:45.600 --> 1:47:48.820 despite Israel and the U.S. going after it directly, Iran 1:47:48.860 --> 1:47:51.559 came out the other side still standing. It's still running its, 1:47:51.620 --> 1:47:54.720 you know, quote unquote, resistance foreign policy. It's still engaged 1:47:54.760 --> 1:47:57.320 in Iraq and Lebanon through its allies and now has 1:47:57.340 --> 1:48:00.330 a chokehold on the Strait of Hormuz that it's used extensively. 1:48:01.070 --> 1:48:03.630 Gaza's phrase for it is, it's still got it. And 1:48:03.650 --> 1:48:05.390 it's a good phrase. The regime that the war was 1:48:05.430 --> 1:48:09.000 supposedly going to topple is... by his account, arguably more 1:48:09.060 --> 1:48:13.000 entrenched afterward. Because it can now tell its own public that, 1:48:13.120 --> 1:48:14.670 you know, we took a direct hit from the two 1:48:14.729 --> 1:48:18.770 most powerful militaries aligned against us, and we're still here. Now, 1:48:18.860 --> 1:48:22.500 Ghaz talks about the Iranians killed. He says this, according 1:48:22.520 --> 1:48:25.400 to the human rights activist news agency, Iranian security forces 1:48:25.460 --> 1:48:28.189 killed at least 7,000 protesters during a wave of unrest 1:48:28.229 --> 1:48:31.309 in December of last year. Other organizations put the number 1:48:31.370 --> 1:48:33.969 in the tens of thousands. The fact that the regime 1:48:34.030 --> 1:48:36.450 killed that many and got away with it essentially functions 1:48:36.510 --> 1:48:40.090 as evidence for a claim about regime durability. So it's 1:48:40.100 --> 1:48:43.190 there to explain why Trump thought Iran looked weak enough 1:48:43.210 --> 1:48:46.610 to bomb. And that's the through line of the whole 1:48:46.630 --> 1:48:50.470 kind of continuity thesis. Gauze, of course, mentions the human cost. 1:48:50.890 --> 1:48:53.630 He does so repeatedly. I would say more than a 1:48:53.650 --> 1:48:57.470 lot of his peers in these circles. So he talks 1:48:57.490 --> 1:49:02.770 about Lebanon over, you know, 4,200 people killed, a million displaced, 1:49:03.050 --> 1:49:06.290 the West Bank. But the analytical weight of the piece 1:49:06.729 --> 1:49:10.290 sits somewhere else on the whether weak states can produce 1:49:10.330 --> 1:49:14.150 durable peace, and whether Iran retains regional influence on whether 1:49:14.170 --> 1:49:16.990 the U.S. can restore a more, quote, stable region. So 1:49:17.050 --> 1:49:19.990 it's all about stability, order, primacy. These are the units 1:49:20.030 --> 1:49:24.280 of account. And this isn't a problem with this particular author. 1:49:24.380 --> 1:49:27.460 I think this is what the genre requires. Foreign Affairs, 1:49:27.500 --> 1:49:30.660 as a publication, is, you know, asking what should Washington do, 1:49:31.439 --> 1:49:34.500 which means its whole vocabulary is built around a subject, 1:49:34.520 --> 1:49:37.770 the U.S. government, or occasionally the Israel or Iran as 1:49:37.790 --> 1:49:41.230 fellow state actors, and everyone else becomes the terrain that 1:49:41.270 --> 1:49:46.479 that subject acts on. Palestinians, Lebanese civilians, Iranian protesters, Yemenis, 1:49:46.570 --> 1:49:51.979 they appear as like populations, undifferentiated, something that gets caused 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:54.460 to suffer by the real actors doing the actual politics. 1:49:55.360 --> 1:49:57.920 In the end, Ghaz concludes that the region, quote, looks 1:49:57.960 --> 1:50:01.139 a lot like it did before the war. I'd actually 1:50:01.180 --> 1:50:03.440 push on that a different way than he does. What 1:50:03.500 --> 1:50:05.760 he means is the balance of power hasn't shifted, the 1:50:05.800 --> 1:50:09.160 conflicts are the same conflicts. But I'd say the region 1:50:09.260 --> 1:50:11.220 also looks a lot like it did before in this 1:50:11.300 --> 1:50:13.420 other sense, that the people living in it are still 1:50:13.460 --> 1:50:16.800 structurally objects of a debate about state power rather than 1:50:16.860 --> 1:50:31.879 participants in it. And that continuity is real too. Okay, 1:50:31.910 --> 1:50:34.380 now we move on to Mark Lynch's quote, the end 1:50:34.400 --> 1:50:36.759 of the American Middle East. It's also in Foreign Affairs. 1:50:37.660 --> 1:50:40.380 Lynch's argument is the opposite of Gaza's. He says, no, 1:50:40.460 --> 1:50:43.840 something did actually end. The regional order that's existed since 1:50:43.880 --> 1:50:48.220 the first Gulf War in 1991, built by George H.W. Bush, 1:50:48.280 --> 1:50:52.340 sustained through five presidencies, organized around Israeli security and the 1:50:52.380 --> 1:50:55.660 flow of oil and American hegemony, that order is dead. 1:50:56.229 --> 1:50:58.309 And the Iran war is what killed it alongside the 1:50:58.350 --> 1:51:01.980 destruction of Gaza. And it's not because Washington lost the battle. 1:51:02.540 --> 1:51:05.660 It's because the bargain at the core of this order 1:51:05.860 --> 1:51:10.580 stopped functioning. So the bargain, you know, in Lynch's estimation 1:51:10.620 --> 1:51:14.190 was align with us. Basically, the United States saying this 1:51:14.270 --> 1:51:19.150 to other Arab and non-Arab state actors, align with us 1:51:19.270 --> 1:51:21.930 and we'll protect you. And then when Iran shut the 1:51:21.950 --> 1:51:25.270 Strait of Hormuz and bombarded the Gulf states that had 1:51:25.870 --> 1:51:28.920 both signed the Abraham Accords and didn't, So they've been 1:51:29.000 --> 1:51:32.860 attacking many of their neighbors. And the United States and Israel, quote, 1:51:33.540 --> 1:51:36.360 with all their military might, simply failed to dislodge the 1:51:36.400 --> 1:51:39.840 Iranian regime. That bargain kind of broke in front of everyone. 1:51:40.200 --> 1:51:44.720 So Gulf leaders watched that bargain break and made that 1:51:44.780 --> 1:51:47.439 assessment that it was broken. I want to be clear 1:51:47.460 --> 1:51:49.860 about what I really appreciate in this piece, because there's 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:51.730 a lot and it's rare to see it in this venue. 1:51:52.479 --> 1:51:54.589 Lynch writes, and I'm just going to read this directly 1:51:54.630 --> 1:51:57.900 because I don't want to paraphrase it into something softer. Quote, 1:51:58.100 --> 1:52:01.880 for Washington, the strategic benefits accrued from this order seem 1:52:01.900 --> 1:52:04.280 to justify the cost of the war required to sustain it. 1:52:04.900 --> 1:52:06.580 But the price was much higher for those who live 1:52:06.620 --> 1:52:08.690 in the region. For most people, the U.S. order meant 1:52:08.740 --> 1:52:12.890 only violence, hopelessness, and deprivation. By nearly every economic, political, 1:52:12.910 --> 1:52:15.630 and developmental indicator, the Middle East under American domination has 1:52:15.670 --> 1:52:19.389 performed far worse than any other region, end quote. So 1:52:19.550 --> 1:52:25.500 for this publication, it's a genuinely, you know, bold, radical sentence. 1:52:25.680 --> 1:52:28.860 He's naming the thing plainly. that this wasn't a stabilizing 1:52:28.900 --> 1:52:32.500 project that had some unfortunate externalities, and that it was 1:52:32.540 --> 1:52:34.670 predicated on violence for the people who live inside it. 1:52:34.820 --> 1:52:37.780 And he goes farther than that, too. He talks about, quote, 1:52:37.800 --> 1:52:41.610 the moral hazard built into American security guarantees, how they 1:52:41.650 --> 1:52:45.810 let autocratic allies disregard Washington's stated interests because they knew 1:52:45.830 --> 1:52:49.430 they were untouchable, and how U.S. support for neoliberal economic 1:52:49.470 --> 1:52:53.970 reforms essentially let regimes loot their own populations under the 1:52:54.030 --> 1:52:57.099 cover of privatization. and how the war on terror gave 1:52:57.120 --> 1:53:00.900 Washington's allies a permission structure to build surveillance states. If 1:53:00.930 --> 1:53:02.980 you've listened to me talk before, you know that's basically 1:53:03.970 --> 1:53:06.309 very close to the argument I've spent my career making 1:53:06.370 --> 1:53:09.370 about U.S.-backed regimes in the Arab world, that Washington's security 1:53:09.410 --> 1:53:12.229 relationships didn't just fail to prevent repression, they were often 1:53:12.250 --> 1:53:15.430 the delivery mechanism for it. But of course, and understandably 1:53:15.470 --> 1:53:18.550 for this publication, the fix on offer is still a 1:53:18.710 --> 1:53:21.809 fix for Washington. Lynch's closing argument is that the next 1:53:21.850 --> 1:53:24.870 American president has a, quote, real chance to build something better, 1:53:25.689 --> 1:53:28.830 renounce military intervention as a first resort, pressure Israel on 1:53:28.870 --> 1:53:31.889 settlements and annexation, stop pushing Iraq and Lebanon to disarm 1:53:31.910 --> 1:53:35.570 the militias before they're ready, recommit to international human rights norms, etc. 1:53:36.010 --> 1:53:39.850 But essentially everything on this list is the US as 1:53:39.890 --> 1:53:42.450 a subject. I don't say that to be glib. A 1:53:42.510 --> 1:53:45.089 US government that actually did those things would matter enormously. 1:53:45.750 --> 1:53:49.630 And domestic US politics is showing a shift. It's showing 1:53:49.670 --> 1:53:53.009 that two-thirds of Democrats now think Washington is too supportive 1:53:53.050 --> 1:53:55.099 of Israel, and there was a House vote to cut 1:53:55.180 --> 1:53:58.180 military aid to them. So in this context, he's right 1:53:58.220 --> 1:54:00.560 that there's more room now than there's ever been for 1:54:00.620 --> 1:54:03.160 a shift. But again, the theory of change, it still 1:54:03.260 --> 1:54:06.880 runs entirely through whether an American administration decides to be different. 1:54:07.620 --> 1:54:12.460 It's not, for example, Palestinians get self-determination because Palestinians have 1:54:12.500 --> 1:54:14.350 built the power to demand and win it. It's that, 1:54:14.550 --> 1:54:17.090 you know, they might get relief from Washington if the 1:54:17.660 --> 1:54:21.979 Washington decides it's in its interest to provide relief. It's 1:54:22.040 --> 1:54:26.660 not nothing, but it's not the same thing as like agency. Additionally, 1:54:26.890 --> 1:54:30.550 Lynch's frame as like order versus disorder or old order 1:54:30.590 --> 1:54:35.190 versus new order reaches for the Suez analogy, for example, 1:54:35.850 --> 1:54:38.830 in 1956, the last kind of gasp of British and 1:54:38.870 --> 1:54:42.590 French imperial power. But his argument is essentially the American 1:54:42.650 --> 1:54:44.810 empire in the Middle East is following the same arc 1:54:45.390 --> 1:54:48.780 that the European ones did, decaying kind of for structural reasons. 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:52.980 And eventually that would recede too. Now I'm sympathetic to 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:55.930 this historical analogy, but I want to flag something about it, 1:54:56.000 --> 1:54:58.000 which is that it's still a story about the transition 1:54:58.040 --> 1:55:01.830 between empires or between an empire and a vacuum or 1:55:02.130 --> 1:55:05.690 between an empire and some future multipolar agreement. It's not 1:55:05.770 --> 1:55:07.690 on its own a story of what the people of 1:55:07.710 --> 1:55:11.370 the region actually want, which, and this is the part that's, 1:55:11.750 --> 1:55:16.510 you know, available if you go looking in a it's 1:55:16.550 --> 1:55:20.650 not usually, please replace American hegemony with a different hegemony. 1:55:21.150 --> 1:55:23.710 You know, it's just people in the region want very 1:55:23.850 --> 1:55:27.040 basic things. They want accountability from their own governments. They 1:55:27.080 --> 1:55:29.620 want an end to being treated as a security theater 1:55:29.640 --> 1:55:32.120 for other people's conflicts. They want actual sovereignty over the 1:55:32.160 --> 1:55:35.660 decisions that get made about their countries in Washington or 1:55:35.700 --> 1:55:39.140 Riyadh or Tehran without them in the room. So Lynch 1:55:39.200 --> 1:55:43.060 is closer to writing about this than anyone in this genre. 1:55:43.100 --> 1:55:46.300 But again, he is focused on what Washington should do next. 1:55:46.320 --> 1:55:49.060 And I'm wondering if we should start also asking what 1:55:49.080 --> 1:55:51.320 it would take for the people living in this region 1:55:51.520 --> 1:55:54.640 to be the ones deciding. And finally, the third piece 1:55:54.720 --> 1:55:58.080 by Stephen Cook at the Council on Foreign Relations, published 1:55:58.100 --> 1:56:02.280 just this past week. I'm recording on August 21st. So 1:56:02.340 --> 1:56:04.380 it's about something that I think a lot of people 1:56:04.420 --> 1:56:06.940 outside the region or those who study the region haven't 1:56:06.980 --> 1:56:10.180 fully clocked yet, which is the Mecca Joint Defense Agreement. 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:15.400 So here's the quick version. On August 7th, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, 1:56:15.510 --> 1:56:18.250 and Turkey signed a mutual defense pact they called the 1:56:18.290 --> 1:56:21.730 Mecca Agreement. The full text hasn't been released, but reporting 1:56:21.770 --> 1:56:25.550 indicates it functions like kind of a NATO Article 5 clause, 1:56:25.630 --> 1:56:27.610 which is an attack on one is treated as an 1:56:27.650 --> 1:56:30.570 attack on all. On paper, it obligates Saudi Arabia and 1:56:30.610 --> 1:56:33.450 Turkey to come to Pakistan's defense in a war with 1:56:33.490 --> 1:56:36.390 India or Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to back Turkey if 1:56:36.430 --> 1:56:39.620 it comes to blows. with Israel over Syria or any 1:56:39.680 --> 1:56:44.500 other adversary. 48 hours after the signing ceremony, the Houthis 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:48.620 hit a Saudi Aramco refinery. Now, Saudi Arabia didn't invoke 1:56:48.640 --> 1:56:52.800 the pact. And Cook reads that, correctly, I think, as 1:56:52.840 --> 1:56:56.600 less about whether the treaty's security guarantee is credible and 1:56:56.660 --> 1:57:00.440 more about what its existence signals, which is that Saudi 1:57:00.460 --> 1:57:03.960 Arabia is building an alternative to relying on Washington full stop. 1:57:04.960 --> 1:57:08.180 Cook's argument is very similar to Lynch's, that the U.S.-led 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:10.860 order is over, but he gets there kind of in 1:57:10.900 --> 1:57:14.180 a different way. For him, he's not emphasizing the moral 1:57:14.240 --> 1:57:17.870 bankruptcy or the violence against ordinary people. It's a straightforward, 1:57:17.910 --> 1:57:21.130 realist account. After the U.S. failed to defend Saudi Arabia 1:57:21.150 --> 1:57:25.390 directly when Iran hit its oil facilities in 2019, and 1:57:25.490 --> 1:57:28.140 after kind of the whiplash of Obama signing the Iran 1:57:28.150 --> 1:57:31.460 deal and then Trump tearing it up, and all of 1:57:31.500 --> 1:57:34.500 the disasters of the Biden administration pushing the Abraham Accords, 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:39.460 even as Gaza was being erased. After Trump's own kind 1:57:39.500 --> 1:57:46.020 of Iran war, the Saudis simply stopped believing that Washington's 1:57:46.040 --> 1:57:48.660 guarantees were reliable. And so they went and built their own. 1:57:49.620 --> 1:57:52.060 And the part I find most striking about Cook's argument 1:57:52.180 --> 1:57:53.760 is the picture he draws in the end, which is 1:57:53.980 --> 1:57:57.520 a Middle East splitting into two competing blocks, the Abraham 1:57:57.560 --> 1:58:01.710 Accords bloc versus the Mecca Agreement bloc. So the Emiratis 1:58:01.770 --> 1:58:05.060 staying tight with Israel and the United States, and then 1:58:05.080 --> 1:58:08.070 the Saudis, Turks, and Pakistanis building something that explicitly competes 1:58:08.090 --> 1:58:10.960 with that. And he calls it, quote, a major change 1:58:11.540 --> 1:58:15.540 and says it's hard to overstate its significance. And honestly, structurally, 1:58:15.590 --> 1:58:17.910 I think he's right that something has shifted. But here's 1:58:17.950 --> 1:58:20.110 where maybe I would slow down a little because I 1:58:20.150 --> 1:58:25.030 think the piece has a missing question. Cook frames the 1:58:25.070 --> 1:58:27.230 whole thing as a story about whose order it's going 1:58:27.270 --> 1:58:30.770 to be. So American order giving way to kind of 1:58:30.810 --> 1:58:35.560 regional multipolarity and Riyadh and Ankara shaping the region instead 1:58:35.580 --> 1:58:40.200 of Washington. And okay, sure, but shaping it how and 1:58:40.280 --> 1:58:43.320 for whom? The three signatories to the Mecca Agreement are, 1:58:43.340 --> 1:58:46.370 and I just want to say this plainly, all authoritarian. 1:58:46.970 --> 1:58:51.510 One is an absolute monarchy. Another is a rapidly authoritarian, 1:58:51.590 --> 1:58:55.050 an increasingly authoritarian state run by a man who jailed 1:58:55.110 --> 1:58:58.550 his last serious electoral rival, and then a military-dominated national 1:58:58.570 --> 1:59:01.370 security state that's fought multiple wars against its own populations. 1:59:02.090 --> 1:59:04.110 So this is not a coalition of the region's publics 1:59:04.170 --> 1:59:07.530 asserting themselves against outside domination. This is three governments, each 1:59:07.570 --> 1:59:09.880 of which has spent considerable energy over the past decade 1:59:10.540 --> 1:59:13.360 surveilling and jailing and in some cases killing its own dissidents. 1:59:14.080 --> 1:59:16.580 They're deciding they'd rather coordinate their security agreements with each 1:59:16.620 --> 1:59:19.500 other than depend on Washington's. And that might genuinely be 1:59:19.540 --> 1:59:21.840 bad news for American hegemony. I just don't think it's 1:59:21.880 --> 1:59:24.510 automatically good news for anyone living under these three governments 1:59:24.520 --> 1:59:27.690 or anyone in the region. Multipolarity is not a synonym 1:59:27.750 --> 1:59:32.320 for liberation. Sometimes it's just another table with more authoritarians 1:59:32.400 --> 1:59:35.300 on it, none of whom actually answer to the people 1:59:35.340 --> 1:59:39.480 they govern any more than American hegemon did. Now, Cook's piece, 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:41.940 to its credit, doesn't claim otherwise. He's writing a narrow, 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:46.270 careful analysis of this security architecture shift, and he says so. 1:59:47.190 --> 1:59:50.610 But it's worth noting that, quote, the US-led order is 1:59:50.770 --> 1:59:54.770 over and something better is emerging are two completely different claims, 1:59:55.510 --> 1:59:57.470 And only one of those three pieces that I talked 1:59:57.490 --> 2:00:00.560 about today even gestures at the second one. And even 2:00:00.620 --> 2:00:03.960 that piece, which is lynches, gestures at mostly by asking 2:00:04.060 --> 2:00:19.070 Washington to be nicer. So here's my synthesis. Gaza says 2:00:19.130 --> 2:00:21.330 nothing structural has changed. The game is the same game. 2:00:21.790 --> 2:00:23.650 Weak states are still weak. Iran and Israel are still 2:00:23.690 --> 2:00:26.760 locked in. The Palestinian question is still open and the U.S. 2:00:26.810 --> 2:00:28.580 is still stuck playing a role it can't fully commit 2:00:28.620 --> 2:00:31.800 to or walk away from. And Lynch says something did change. 2:00:32.380 --> 2:00:35.240 The moral and material bankruptcy of the American security bargain 2:00:35.300 --> 2:00:38.720 has been fully exposed. And now there's a narrow window 2:00:39.160 --> 2:00:41.340 for Washington to build something less violent in its place. 2:00:42.000 --> 2:00:44.010 And then Cook says something has changed, but it's not 2:00:44.290 --> 2:00:47.930 about morality or bankruptcy. It's about credibility. American guarantees stopped 2:00:47.950 --> 2:00:50.430 being trusted, so regional powers built their own. And now 2:00:50.470 --> 2:00:53.770 we're watching this kind of bipolar regional order emerged that 2:00:53.790 --> 2:00:56.670 doesn't run through Washington at all. And all three, I think, 2:00:56.710 --> 2:00:58.770 have a real and important argument. I don't want to 2:00:58.800 --> 2:01:02.380 flatten that. The difference between nothing changed and the empire 2:01:02.400 --> 2:01:06.160 is ending or something more competitive is taking its place, 2:01:06.460 --> 2:01:09.220 that's not a trivial disagreement. It has real implications for 2:01:09.260 --> 2:01:11.400 what happens next in Gaza and Lebanon and in the Gulf. 2:01:12.240 --> 2:01:15.280 But again, notice what all three arguments hold in common 2:01:15.380 --> 2:01:18.880 underneath that disagreement is they're all arguing about whether an 2:01:18.920 --> 2:01:22.590 order existed and whether it's ending. And Maybe we don't 2:01:22.730 --> 2:01:26.230 emphasize enough existed for who and ending for who and 2:01:26.410 --> 2:01:29.840 according to whose clock. So I want to back up 2:01:29.860 --> 2:01:32.100 a little bit further from the three essays we just 2:01:32.140 --> 2:01:35.140 walked through. All three of them write as though the 2:01:35.160 --> 2:01:37.800 story starts with the Iran war or with Gaza's destruction 2:01:38.000 --> 2:01:40.940 or with the Mecca agreement. So a story that begins 2:01:41.440 --> 2:01:45.520 in the last two, three years. But let me go 2:01:45.590 --> 2:01:48.130 back to December, 2023, just a few weeks after October 7th. 2:01:50.150 --> 2:01:52.940 Hamas attacks in Israel and then the start of the 2:01:52.960 --> 2:01:56.180 war on Gaza. Back then, the working assumption in a 2:01:56.200 --> 2:01:58.700 lot of Washington rooms was that this could still be contained. 2:01:59.680 --> 2:02:02.420 I wrote a piece about that in December of 2023 2:02:02.420 --> 2:02:05.280 for the Foreign Policy Research Institute, and I called it 2:02:05.320 --> 2:02:08.590 the re-emergence of the Palestine question in world politics. The 2:02:08.610 --> 2:02:12.170 argument had three parts. Part one was that Palestine functions 2:02:12.210 --> 2:02:15.010 for Arab publics as what I call a gateway to dissent, 2:02:15.800 --> 2:02:18.340 not because everyone in the region is single-mindedly obsessed with 2:02:18.380 --> 2:02:21.620 Palestine at the expense of their own politics. It's because 2:02:21.640 --> 2:02:23.760 organizing around Palestine is one of the few forms of 2:02:23.820 --> 2:02:28.240 political mobilization that Arab authoritarian regimes historically had a hard 2:02:28.280 --> 2:02:31.740 time fully criminalizing because the regimes themselves had claimed to 2:02:31.780 --> 2:02:35.100 support the cause rhetorically, even if they worked with Washington 2:02:35.160 --> 2:02:37.940 or maybe sometimes Israel behind the scenes. And there's all 2:02:38.010 --> 2:02:41.410 sorts of examples about this, like Egyptian revolutionaries in 2011 2:02:41.410 --> 2:02:45.160 during the Arab Spring, they pointed directly to their earlier 2:02:45.230 --> 2:02:47.230 organizing around Palestine as kind of the training ground for 2:02:47.250 --> 2:02:51.370 their work. In 2023, after October 7th, the same dynamic reappeared. 2:02:51.390 --> 2:02:54.770 There was protest that Arab governments, several of them, you know, 2:02:54.950 --> 2:02:57.990 allied with Washington that they struggled to contain around Palestine. 2:02:58.610 --> 2:03:02.900 Because for once, you know, the people's anger and the 2:03:02.940 --> 2:03:06.460 regime's professed position were pointed in the same direction, which 2:03:06.520 --> 2:03:09.280 made it very hard to police. Now, part two of 2:03:09.320 --> 2:03:12.080 my argument was Palestine and violence. This is the part 2:03:12.100 --> 2:03:15.060 I think is particularly useful now. I argued then that 2:03:15.130 --> 2:03:19.140 Israeli military conduct, plus very visible American acquiescence to it, 2:03:19.830 --> 2:03:22.870 was functionally handing the Palestinian cause over to the actors 2:03:22.930 --> 2:03:27.330 most willing to escalate around it. So Iran and its proxies, 2:03:27.950 --> 2:03:31.770 who explicitly positioned themselves as the keepers of the Palestinian cause. 2:03:32.650 --> 2:03:35.700 At the time, the Iranian officials and others used the 2:03:35.720 --> 2:03:39.780 term unifying the fields, meaning they coordinated the attacks with 2:03:39.840 --> 2:03:42.920 Hezbollah and the Houthis and the militias in Iraq and Hamas. 2:03:43.780 --> 2:03:47.600 So I cited an Arab barometer polling at that time 2:03:47.860 --> 2:03:51.990 that was already showing growing public traction for, you know, 2:03:52.130 --> 2:03:55.990 quote unquote, the resistance access. And I flagged that shift 2:03:56.050 --> 2:03:59.010 in how Israel was fighting itself. There was reporting at 2:03:59.050 --> 2:04:01.310 that time that was coming out of 972 Mag on 2:04:01.350 --> 2:04:05.550 the use of AI targeting systems that basically were enabling, 2:04:05.570 --> 2:04:08.470 in their words, these wars of, quote, massive scale rather 2:04:08.510 --> 2:04:13.770 than precision. So my worry was that when extremist actors 2:04:14.310 --> 2:04:17.610 and militias are the only actors that are left actually 2:04:17.670 --> 2:04:21.230 representing the Palestinian cause by force, you get a zero-sum 2:04:21.270 --> 2:04:25.350 dynamic that produces exactly the kind of mass multi-front violence 2:04:25.450 --> 2:04:28.170 that becomes very hard to de-escalate. That was the argument 2:04:28.190 --> 2:04:31.210 I made in December 2023. And it's, I think, more 2:04:31.250 --> 2:04:35.510 or less a summary of what's occurred. The 2026 Iran war, 2:04:35.530 --> 2:04:40.450 the Houthis re-engaging, Iran's whole regional strategy still oriented around 2:04:40.970 --> 2:04:44.590 this kind of unifying the field logic I was describing before. Now, 2:04:44.650 --> 2:04:46.810 part three of my argument was Palestine and the world order. 2:04:47.570 --> 2:04:51.850 I argued that Washington's simultaneous position, the kind of full-throated 2:04:52.550 --> 2:04:57.390 backing at the time for Ukrainian sovereignty against occupation paired 2:04:57.450 --> 2:05:01.010 with material and diplomatic cover for Israel's actions in Gaza 2:05:01.050 --> 2:05:04.870 was doing serious damage to the credibility of the entire 2:05:04.890 --> 2:05:07.730 liberal international order and not just to just, you know, 2:05:07.880 --> 2:05:12.620 America's regional reputation. I use this term from the literature 2:05:12.640 --> 2:05:16.980 in international relations of recognitional justice, which is the idea 2:05:17.040 --> 2:05:19.680 that a global order's legitimacy depends not just on power, 2:05:20.400 --> 2:05:23.050 but on whether it's perceived to deliver justice on longstanding, 2:05:23.350 --> 2:05:27.090 unresolved sovereignty claims. Palestine is like the textbook case of 2:05:27.130 --> 2:05:32.230 an unresolved claim that sovereignty was never granted and never addressed. 2:05:32.990 --> 2:05:35.590 And I pointed out then that Arab officials were already, 2:05:35.970 --> 2:05:40.290 in December 2023, showing up in Moscow or Beijing, and 2:05:40.390 --> 2:05:44.750 treating Washington's mediating role as compromised beyond repair. And I 2:05:44.770 --> 2:05:49.350 close with a very specific historical contrast. Ronald Reagan in 1982, 2:05:49.350 --> 2:05:53.080 when Israel was attempting to destroy Lebanon, he picked up 2:05:53.100 --> 2:05:56.980 the phone and told Menachem Begin to stop bombing Beirut. 2:05:57.720 --> 2:06:00.780 And the bombing stopped. So there was like real leverage applied. 2:06:01.360 --> 2:06:05.620 Now compare that to Biden's approach back in 2023, which 2:06:05.690 --> 2:06:09.790 reporters called, you know, bear-hugging Netanyahu. My argument then was 2:06:09.990 --> 2:06:13.910 nothing short of abandoning this model and treating Palestinian self-determination 2:06:13.950 --> 2:06:16.790 as a genuine sovereignty question rather than just like a 2:06:16.830 --> 2:06:19.760 security management problem was going to prevent exactly the kind 2:06:19.800 --> 2:06:22.840 of regional escalation that's consuming all of us now. Now, 2:06:22.860 --> 2:06:25.140 I'm not saying this to claim like how great I 2:06:25.200 --> 2:06:27.500 was to have said this. I didn't have a crystal ball. 2:06:27.520 --> 2:06:31.260 A crystal ball is not really required here. The mechanism 2:06:31.460 --> 2:06:33.580 for how this was going to function was very clear 2:06:33.660 --> 2:06:36.600 in December 2023 for anyone who was willing to look 2:06:36.860 --> 2:06:40.300 at Palestine and or the cause of Arab publics, as 2:06:40.340 --> 2:06:43.480 a cause rather than just a footnote. And two years later, 2:06:43.500 --> 2:06:46.860 you know, Gregory Goss, for example, is describing Hezbollah and 2:06:46.880 --> 2:06:50.480 the Houthis reengaging exactly along this logic that I described. 2:06:51.120 --> 2:06:53.640 And Lynch is describing Gulf states starting to hedge towards 2:06:53.680 --> 2:06:57.060 Russia and China. And Cook is describing how Saudi Arabia, Turkey, 2:06:57.080 --> 2:07:00.470 and Pakistan are building this alternative security structure because the 2:07:00.890 --> 2:07:04.370 bear hug model of American reassurance stopped being credible. And 2:07:04.430 --> 2:07:08.330 Arab public sentiment now has more interest in Washington. because 2:07:08.350 --> 2:07:10.510 of what's happened in the last few years. There was 2:07:10.550 --> 2:07:12.570 also this piece in Foreign Affairs by Amani Jamin and 2:07:12.610 --> 2:07:15.950 Michael Robbins, and they talked about survey data from Arab 2:07:15.970 --> 2:07:19.669 respondents that showed how lots of Arabs, you know, a majority, 2:07:19.790 --> 2:07:23.510 don't think the United States upholds international law. And single 2:07:23.550 --> 2:07:26.129 digits in these surveys picked the U.S. as an acceptable 2:07:26.170 --> 2:07:30.129 mediator for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And in every country surveyed, 2:07:30.530 --> 2:07:33.050 more people said China does a better job protecting freedoms 2:07:33.090 --> 2:07:37.040 and rights than the United States does. So, Jamal and 2:07:37.100 --> 2:07:39.500 Robbins read that as kind of a recent collapse, something 2:07:39.520 --> 2:07:44.840 that had become lost for the United States after October 2023. 2:07:44.840 --> 2:07:48.770 I'd go further. We know from survey data since 2011, 2:07:48.770 --> 2:07:50.850 you can look up the Arab Opinion Index, for example, 2:07:51.510 --> 2:07:54.630 that this wasn't a cliff, it's a slope. It's been 2:07:54.650 --> 2:07:58.690 a steady, years-long trajectory of Arab publics souring on the 2:07:58.710 --> 2:08:02.720 United States that predates what's happened in Gaza and the 2:08:02.760 --> 2:08:07.920 genocide by over a decade, at least. Between 21 and 2:08:07.920 --> 2:08:10.340 29 percent of respondents across these nine rounds of the 2:08:10.360 --> 2:08:13.360 Arab Opinion Index have consistently named the U.S. as the 2:08:13.400 --> 2:08:16.780 greatest threat facing Arabs, second only to Israel. And the 2:08:16.820 --> 2:08:19.190 share who reject the idea that the U.S. genuinely cares 2:08:19.210 --> 2:08:23.270 about human rights, climbed from 49% in 2014 to 55% 2:08:23.270 --> 2:08:28.030 in the most recent round. And finally, 76% hold a 2:08:28.070 --> 2:08:31.030 negative view of U.S. policy towards Palestine. And none of 2:08:31.070 --> 2:08:32.930 that is just a reaction to the last three years. 2:08:34.090 --> 2:08:36.760 This double standard that the United States has upheld wasn't 2:08:36.800 --> 2:08:38.880 a failure of the liberal international order in the Middle East. 2:08:39.440 --> 2:08:43.220 It was the order. It was operating as designed. The 2:08:43.260 --> 2:08:47.380 post-World War II architecture of multilateral institutions with democratic norms 2:08:47.440 --> 2:08:51.300 and open markets and rules that you know, supposedly applied 2:08:51.340 --> 2:08:55.080 to everybody. That's the version that the European publics and 2:08:55.140 --> 2:08:59.340 European states were sold and experienced. The Middle East, as 2:08:59.360 --> 2:09:03.350 I've argued in a variety of different pieces, was governed 2:09:03.370 --> 2:09:05.590 through a different logic from day one. It was about 2:09:05.630 --> 2:09:08.510 securing the flow of oil. It was about guaranteeing freedom 2:09:08.530 --> 2:09:12.030 of navigation through strategic choke points and propping up whichever 2:09:12.070 --> 2:09:15.610 regime would sign on to that bargain. Democratic issues were 2:09:15.770 --> 2:09:19.490 completely optional. And of course, unconditional backing for Israeli governments, 2:09:19.550 --> 2:09:22.770 regardless of conduct. There's actually a companion statistic in the 2:09:22.810 --> 2:09:25.630 piece that I wrote from the Arab Barometer. 40 to 50% 2:09:25.630 --> 2:09:28.990 of respondents believe that the United Nations sides more often 2:09:29.010 --> 2:09:33.780 with Israel than with the Palestinians. And the conclusion is plain. Quote, 2:09:34.240 --> 2:09:36.580 many Arab citizens no longer see the problem as one 2:09:36.620 --> 2:09:39.040 of double standards alone. The root cause is the bankruptcy 2:09:39.060 --> 2:09:41.700 of the entire international system. So it's not just Washington, 2:09:42.140 --> 2:09:44.300 it's this whole architecture that people were told to place 2:09:44.320 --> 2:09:47.970 their faith in, the UN, the rules, the institutions, basically 2:09:48.250 --> 2:09:50.110 read by the people who are supposed to be protected 2:09:50.270 --> 2:09:53.750 by it as functionally captured. Now, an important caveat, because 2:09:53.790 --> 2:09:55.370 I don't want to leave you with the wrong takeaway here. 68% 2:09:55.370 --> 2:09:59.390 of respondents in that latest Arab Opinion Index still say 2:09:59.410 --> 2:10:02.830 they support democracy as their preferred system of governments. This 2:10:02.890 --> 2:10:05.650 isn't a story about people giving up on democratic values 2:10:05.680 --> 2:10:08.260 or self-determination or accountability or rule of law. It's a 2:10:08.280 --> 2:10:11.960 story about people concluding, based on 15 years of consistent data, 2:10:12.440 --> 2:10:15.840 that the American-led vehicle claiming to deliver those values was 2:10:15.920 --> 2:10:18.370 never actually built to deliver them in the Middle East. 2:10:19.030 --> 2:10:21.730 And then, of course, there's the Trump administration's contribution to 2:10:21.770 --> 2:10:24.350 all of this, which I've been fairly blunt about, you know, 2:10:24.510 --> 2:10:29.210 in previous episodes. Previous administrations at least maintained the pretense. 2:10:29.750 --> 2:10:32.530 You know, there were the summits and they gave lip 2:10:32.560 --> 2:10:35.640 service to the rules-based order and they like performed that 2:10:35.660 --> 2:10:39.480 they cared about democracy sometimes. But stripping away this performative 2:10:39.520 --> 2:10:43.560 rhetoric doesn't just look bad. It removes a tool. As 2:10:43.600 --> 2:10:46.140 long as Washington claimed to believe in a rules-based order, 2:10:46.900 --> 2:10:49.540 Arab reformers and Democrats had something to point at. Like, 2:10:49.800 --> 2:10:53.340 there's a gap between your stated standard and the actual conduct. 2:10:53.820 --> 2:10:55.900 And so maybe we can name and shame you and 2:10:55.920 --> 2:10:59.100 like you'll change your opinions or change your policies. Once 2:10:59.120 --> 2:11:01.540 the U.S. stops even claiming that standard, you know, that 2:11:01.600 --> 2:11:06.200 lever disappears. There's nothing left to leverage. So what's the prescription? 2:11:06.940 --> 2:11:10.060 I don't think the prescription can anymore be wait for 2:11:10.090 --> 2:11:13.490 a better administration. Maybe we need to stop centering Washington 2:11:13.530 --> 2:11:16.540 as the mechanism of repair at all. Instead, maybe we 2:11:16.580 --> 2:11:20.680 need to support international accountability mechanisms that Washington is currently 2:11:20.720 --> 2:11:23.640 trying to defund and sanction into irrelevance, like the ICC, 2:11:24.440 --> 2:11:27.220 or build multilateral efforts to uphold something like a rules-based 2:11:27.280 --> 2:11:30.570 order without waiting for the American establishment, and develop civil 2:11:30.590 --> 2:11:32.970 society strategies that don't depend on the outcome of U.S. 2:11:32.990 --> 2:11:33.750 Domestic politics. 2:11:33.870 --> 2:11:36.890 Because any order that eventually replaces this one has to 2:11:36.950 --> 2:11:39.970 actually reckon with the injustices that this one spent decades 2:11:40.010 --> 2:11:43.900 systematically ignoring. There's a really interesting article in The Guardian 2:11:44.140 --> 2:11:47.720 titled What Should Replace the American-Led Order by Asli Bali 2:11:47.820 --> 2:11:50.700 and Samuel Moyn. I'll put them in the show notes. 2:11:51.280 --> 2:11:55.000 And I think it's an interesting argument about how to 2:11:55.180 --> 2:11:58.340 stop mourning what they call the old order and build 2:11:58.360 --> 2:12:01.270 the foundations of a new world. But when we go 2:12:01.310 --> 2:12:04.450 back to kind of the DC policymaking space, the honest 2:12:04.470 --> 2:12:06.470 through line of all the articles I engage with today 2:12:06.630 --> 2:12:09.490 is that the system is failing. But it's been failing. 2:12:09.550 --> 2:12:11.690 It's been happening for a very long time. The debate 2:12:11.730 --> 2:12:15.380 in Washington is just finally grudgingly catching up to admitting it. 2:12:15.530 --> 2:12:18.490 And even now, it's mostly catching up on Washington's terms, 2:12:18.710 --> 2:12:21.450 asking what Washington should do about it, rather than asking, 2:12:21.950 --> 2:12:24.030 you know, who's been trying to tell it this entire time. 2:12:25.300 --> 2:12:27.180 Thanks for listening to another episode of It Could Happen Here. 2:12:27.580 --> 2:12:27.900 Stay safe. 2:12:39.220 --> 2:12:44.080 Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm your host, Mio Wong. 2:12:45.660 --> 2:12:49.530 For a decade now, I've been seeking the answer to 2:12:49.570 --> 2:12:53.790 a single question. How does history move? 2:12:55.190 --> 2:12:56.830 It is not, as it. 2:12:56.830 --> 2:13:02.630 First appears, an abstract question. In it is the answer 2:13:02.970 --> 2:13:06.900 to a more immediate query. How did we get here? 2:13:08.130 --> 2:13:13.470 to a decade defined by war, by dictatorship, and by genocide. 2:13:15.090 --> 2:13:19.390 How did we live to see a world where India, China, 2:13:19.770 --> 2:13:23.020 and the United States, the three largest countries that have 2:13:23.110 --> 2:13:28.660 ever existed, ruling over three of the world's eight billion people, 2:13:29.460 --> 2:13:33.440 are ruled by different forms of fascist governments? And is 2:13:33.460 --> 2:13:36.840 there any way out of the endless nightmare? that every 2:13:36.920 --> 2:13:40.610 summer sets the world on fire, only to leave it 2:13:40.670 --> 2:13:46.610 the same, but somehow worse. To understand this, to understand 2:13:46.990 --> 2:13:50.640 how we live to see these days of horror, we 2:13:50.690 --> 2:13:56.060 must understand why history moves at all. What is it 2:13:56.500 --> 2:14:00.960 that drives history forward? Is it great men, and they 2:14:01.000 --> 2:14:05.430 always seem to be men in such formulations, seizing the 2:14:05.490 --> 2:14:08.930 stage of history and driving it according to their great will? 2:14:10.350 --> 2:14:14.570 Is it a moral arc of progress, forever bending and 2:14:15.410 --> 2:14:20.990 forever pushing the world, however slowly, towards a kinder, gentler 2:14:21.110 --> 2:14:26.710 form of liberal democracy? Is it the inexorable unfolding of 2:14:26.750 --> 2:14:31.629 the internal dynamics of capital, acting, depending on your position 2:14:31.670 --> 2:14:35.180 and political faction? as either the material basis of history 2:14:35.720 --> 2:14:39.920 or a kind of god in potentia, leading inexorably to 2:14:39.960 --> 2:14:44.350 either communism or something worse? Is it the movement of 2:14:44.390 --> 2:14:49.890 the working class storming onto the historical stage? Are all 2:14:49.930 --> 2:14:54.490 of these simply a series of irrelevant metanarratives? My answer 2:14:55.290 --> 2:15:00.580 is this. The great Marxist historian C.L.R. James said, a 2:15:00.640 --> 2:15:03.900 man as intimately involved in the process of revolution as 2:15:04.080 --> 2:15:08.000 any of the men he spent his life depicting, once 2:15:08.100 --> 2:15:14.600 wrote in Black Jacobins, his magisterial account of the Haitian Revolution, that, quote, 2:15:15.060 --> 2:15:17.690 the rich are only defeated when they are running for 2:15:17.730 --> 2:15:21.870 their lives. And even in this darkest hour of the 2:15:21.930 --> 2:15:27.640 working class, with fascism ascendant and a movement rising, break 2:15:27.700 --> 2:15:32.580 its power, failing to materialize every day. I have lived 2:15:32.600 --> 2:15:36.060 to see them run. I have lived to see their 2:15:36.100 --> 2:15:41.040 shield walls break, their armies falling back street by liberated street, 2:15:42.300 --> 2:15:45.140 seeing those streets turn to cities and those cities turn 2:15:45.160 --> 2:15:48.940 to whole provinces. I have lived to see ancient and 2:15:49.020 --> 2:15:54.690 terrible ruling classes reduced to huddling like rats besieged in 2:15:54.700 --> 2:15:58.470 their own capitals. to see a commune that outlasted the 2:15:58.490 --> 2:16:02.610 commune of Paris. I have lived to see the President 2:16:02.650 --> 2:16:06.430 of the United States hide in a bunker where protesters 2:16:06.490 --> 2:16:09.190 fought the Secret Service outside the gates of the White House. 2:16:10.290 --> 2:16:13.400 I have lived to see history come not on horseback, 2:16:14.180 --> 2:16:17.230 but to the sound of an upturned bucket beaten as 2:16:17.270 --> 2:16:21.360 a drum, and the thunder of a million voices of 2:16:21.400 --> 2:16:24.960 a thousand peoples who could not live to see another moment. 2:16:25.670 --> 2:16:29.190 of a world like this one. And whether you realize 2:16:29.230 --> 2:16:32.100 it or not, you have lived to see it too. 2:16:33.620 --> 2:16:36.420 And just as surely, I have lived to see what 2:16:36.459 --> 2:16:40.680 came after. I have lived to see the firebombs, the 2:16:40.720 --> 2:16:45.900 machine guns, the all-night courts filling, the prison cells just 2:16:45.959 --> 2:16:49.679 as surely as the army filled the abattoirs. I have 2:16:49.730 --> 2:16:52.710 lived to see them build the wall and fill the camps. 2:16:53.310 --> 2:16:57.330 an attempt to wipe whole peoples from existence. And this, too, 2:16:57.420 --> 2:17:03.060 is history. But the trick, the secret, the pattern so 2:17:03.200 --> 2:17:08.000 obvious that it cannot be named, is that these are 2:17:08.040 --> 2:17:14.380 the same history. History moves in and is driven by 2:17:14.480 --> 2:17:19.760 cycles of uprising and repression, cycles of revolution and counter-revolution. 2:17:21.379 --> 2:17:24.030 It is an insight into so obvious that it does 2:17:24.070 --> 2:17:29.970 not seem profound. The implications are easy to miss. But 2:17:30.010 --> 2:17:34.640 if what drives history is cycles of our uprisings and 2:17:34.690 --> 2:17:40.380 their repression, it means that history is not driven purely 2:17:41.140 --> 2:17:46.920 by cyclopean forces outside of even the possibility of our imagination, 2:17:47.850 --> 2:17:53.220 much less our control. It means that those forces, those 2:17:53.260 --> 2:17:59.039 impossible abstractions, capitalism and the state and the white supremacist order, 2:18:00.160 --> 2:18:04.510 the systems and institutions that rule the world, are reacting 2:18:05.030 --> 2:18:10.090 to us. Capital is forced to maneuver around our advances, 2:18:10.750 --> 2:18:13.450 just as we are forced to maneuver around its development. 2:18:14.270 --> 2:18:19.230 The state builds its own capacity against our movements, not 2:18:19.330 --> 2:18:23.590 from their own desire, but from their own necessity. The 2:18:23.650 --> 2:18:28.410 ruling class, for all its power, does not simply rule, 2:18:28.930 --> 2:18:34.400 it is forced to react to us. The material reality 2:18:35.200 --> 2:18:38.560 of a world of uprisings is that we are a 2:18:38.640 --> 2:18:44.660 force of history. This is a dangerous idea to even express, 2:18:45.360 --> 2:18:48.820 much less to analyze. For if you take the idea 2:18:48.920 --> 2:18:53.179 seriously that history is not driven by the pure will 2:18:53.220 --> 2:18:57.619 of great men or the inexorable movement of capital, then, 2:18:58.100 --> 2:19:01.600 just to start, elites are not, as they would have 2:19:01.650 --> 2:19:06.900 you believe, the only people who matter. It means that 2:19:06.980 --> 2:19:10.539 history is driven by ordinary people who, in an hour 2:19:10.600 --> 2:19:13.890 of crisis like their mothers before them, pick up a 2:19:13.970 --> 2:19:18.510 brick and throw it at the nearest symbols or personages 2:19:18.970 --> 2:19:23.369 of the ruling class. It is of such struggles, from 2:19:23.390 --> 2:19:25.750 the gates of Versailles to the gates of the White House, 2:19:26.650 --> 2:19:32.100 that history is made. Regular people, individuals like you and 2:19:32.160 --> 2:19:34.379 me and your neighbor across the street with the cute 2:19:34.440 --> 2:19:38.400 cat you see sometimes, changed the course of human history. 2:19:39.280 --> 2:19:44.640 It seems almost impossible. And yet, I know it's true, 2:19:45.700 --> 2:19:49.680 because I've met them, the ordinary people thrust into the 2:19:49.740 --> 2:19:54.600 fulcrum of history. There was David Graeber, the late anthropologist, 2:19:55.280 --> 2:19:59.140 who helped steal a crowd from an otherwise largely pointless 2:19:59.200 --> 2:20:03.420 protest in a park in New York. There was Vicki Osterweil, 2:20:04.290 --> 2:20:06.910 A writer who many of you have heard on this show, 2:20:07.650 --> 2:20:12.789 who facilitated the first meeting of a movement called Occupy 2:20:12.910 --> 2:20:16.610 Wall Street. These were people, just like you and me, 2:20:17.450 --> 2:20:20.720 who showed up to a meeting. And after that meeting, 2:20:21.580 --> 2:20:26.040 the whole world was different. This is the reality of history. 2:20:27.200 --> 2:20:30.900 It is driven by ordinary people who, in retrospect, are 2:20:30.940 --> 2:20:34.939 remembered as something greater. as a movement, or a class, 2:20:35.240 --> 2:20:38.660 or a world historical force, who at the beginning of 2:20:38.720 --> 2:20:42.160 the day rolled out of bed as nothing. 2:20:41.900 --> 2:20:42.500 Of the sort. 2:20:44.200 --> 2:20:48.060 And yet, we are a historical force, and we belong 2:20:48.560 --> 2:20:51.539 on the stage of history just as much as their 2:20:51.600 --> 2:20:55.750 rulers and oppressors. It is in fact the great task 2:20:56.470 --> 2:20:59.970 of the political order, the state, the politician, the social 2:20:59.990 --> 2:21:03.650 media company, the fascist, to convince us that we can 2:21:03.750 --> 2:21:07.740 only be observers to history, that the best we can 2:21:07.780 --> 2:21:12.420 aspire to is, as Walter Benjamin described, to have a 2:21:12.480 --> 2:21:16.840 fascist dictator represent and act out our feelings. Thus, the 2:21:16.879 --> 2:21:20.580 task of counter-revolution is to clear us from the stage 2:21:20.600 --> 2:21:23.860 of history that we have seized in the streets. And 2:21:23.900 --> 2:21:27.250 it is here, perhaps, that the kind of revolutionaries who 2:21:27.330 --> 2:21:31.470 rule the world have had the greatest success. They have 2:21:31.550 --> 2:21:35.650 crushed the idea that we can shape history so thoroughly 2:21:36.310 --> 2:21:39.429 that the very idea of us changing the world seems 2:21:39.470 --> 2:21:43.610 like a joke. In order to wrestle back that place 2:21:43.670 --> 2:21:46.910 in history, in order to take back our autonomy and 2:21:46.950 --> 2:21:51.850 our ability to change the horror that is the present world, 2:21:53.370 --> 2:21:56.529 we must come to understand what it looks like when 2:21:56.590 --> 2:22:00.030 we take the historical stage, how we have failed to 2:22:00.620 --> 2:22:04.180 and how we succeeded, we must know at the most 2:22:04.260 --> 2:22:19.510 basic level that it is even possible at all. And 2:22:19.610 --> 2:22:23.030 so in this series, we turn to the last three 2:22:23.129 --> 2:22:27.750 cycles of uprisings. An old man with a beard once said, 2:22:29.240 --> 2:22:32.520 Men make their own history, but they do not make 2:22:32.580 --> 2:22:34.980 it as they please. They do not make it under 2:22:35.040 --> 2:22:41.460 self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted 2:22:41.720 --> 2:22:45.459 from the past. Marx, of course, was writing of the 2:22:45.640 --> 2:22:50.350 18th Brumaire, of an earlier set of revolutions and counter-revolutions, 2:22:51.830 --> 2:22:56.690 different in many ways than our own. Each uprising cycle 2:22:56.750 --> 2:23:00.289 is shaped by its material conditions. the social and economic 2:23:00.350 --> 2:23:04.890 structures of the age. We are to examine the last 2:23:04.970 --> 2:23:09.490 three cycles of uprisings in an age defined not, as 2:23:09.570 --> 2:23:13.610 Marx spoke of, by the triumphant rise of the industrial proletariat, 2:23:14.090 --> 2:23:18.890 but by the death of that very working class. I 2:23:18.930 --> 2:23:22.750 have spoken elsewhere about the death of the old working 2:23:22.800 --> 2:23:26.520 class at Tiananmen, and I will leave those details to 2:23:26.560 --> 2:23:30.340 that previous work. We are going to be looking here, 2:23:30.959 --> 2:23:33.939 in the episodes to come, at the cycles of uprising 2:23:34.120 --> 2:23:39.450 that came next, beginning roughly with the cycle known as 2:23:39.570 --> 2:23:47.129 Ultra-Globalization and the Zapatista Uprising. Now, periodization, or the task 2:23:47.310 --> 2:23:52.129 of putting these cycles firmly into lists of dates in 2:23:52.170 --> 2:23:55.690 which they begin and end, is always a troublesome process. 2:23:57.300 --> 2:24:03.359 It is never quite historically precise. Movements persist and die 2:24:03.379 --> 2:24:07.020 in a hundred forms in a hundred places. And the 2:24:07.120 --> 2:24:11.860 waves of global uprising and global suppression that we are 2:24:11.930 --> 2:24:16.850 tracking are more complicated than can be fully captured by 2:24:17.170 --> 2:24:22.410 start date here and date here. But for our purposes, roughly, 2:24:22.430 --> 2:24:26.720 this initial period of uprisings, the first we will examine... 2:24:27.220 --> 2:24:33.180 begins roughly with the Zapatista uprising in 1994, but really 2:24:33.220 --> 2:24:37.119 kicks off with the Battle of Seattle in 1999, through 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:41.520 Argentina in 2001, through the water and gas wars in Bolivia, 2:24:41.540 --> 2:24:47.380 and travels, I think, to unexpected places, like post-Katrina New Orleans, 2:24:48.220 --> 2:24:51.859 before eventually ending with the Oaxaca Commune in 2006. The 2:24:53.100 --> 2:24:58.180 second wave, the so-called Movement of the Squares, that starts 2:24:58.480 --> 2:25:02.990 in 2011 with the Arab Spring, continues with Occupy Wall 2:25:03.000 --> 2:25:08.789 Street and its myriad successive movements across the world, and ends, 2:25:09.350 --> 2:25:15.770 I think thematically, with Trump coming down the escalator in 2:25:15.770 --> 2:25:18.670 2015 with the crushing of Ferguson and the uprising in Baltimore, 2:25:19.350 --> 2:25:22.550 and finally will turn to the more recent wave of 2:25:22.670 --> 2:25:27.610 uprisings best remembered for Hong Kong and George Floyd that 2:25:27.670 --> 2:25:33.370 stretched from Lebanon to Ecuador, and roughly from late 2017, 2:25:33.370 --> 2:25:40.860 early 2018, to probably about 2021. The periodization here is 2:25:41.060 --> 2:25:45.660 obviously more difficult, because unlike with the movements of the 2:25:45.720 --> 2:25:48.330 previous two cycles, we do not have the luxury of 2:25:48.410 --> 2:25:52.190 seeing where they led. We are, you know, still living 2:25:52.610 --> 2:25:53.369 through them in. 2:25:55.200 --> 2:25:58.490 A number of ways we are still living in the 2:25:58.510 --> 2:26:00.910 sort of kind of revolution from that cycle in ways 2:26:00.950 --> 2:26:04.730 that make periodization difficult. It's possible the cycle of uprisings 2:26:04.890 --> 2:26:08.830 after that has begun already. I simply cannot say we 2:26:08.850 --> 2:26:11.890 will not be able to periodize it until after the 2:26:12.209 --> 2:26:17.960 period has sort of ended. Now, these uprisings, save for 2:26:17.980 --> 2:26:21.900 the special case of Argentina 2001, which we will talk 2:26:21.940 --> 2:26:25.490 about at length since it is I guess the origin 2:26:25.550 --> 2:26:29.750 of the conception of Occupy that would become the core, 2:26:30.350 --> 2:26:36.679 if in extremely different forms, of the 2011 uprisings. These 2:26:36.780 --> 2:26:40.080 uprisings do not look like the uprisings of the past. 2:26:41.060 --> 2:26:44.830 The working class has stubbornly refused to cohere into its 2:26:44.990 --> 2:26:51.110 old fighting forms. Because those forms— the mass party, the workers' council, 2:26:51.750 --> 2:26:56.000 the mass syndicalist union— were born of structures and conditions 2:26:56.060 --> 2:26:59.379 of production that no longer exist as they once did. 2:27:00.240 --> 2:27:04.270 The old identity of the working class, that of a 2:27:04.330 --> 2:27:07.110 class that was building the future with its own hands 2:27:07.290 --> 2:27:09.590 and will one day inherit its own creations. 2:27:10.490 --> 2:27:11.010 Is dead. 2:27:11.030 --> 2:27:15.950 In its wake, workers have tried over and over and 2:27:16.050 --> 2:27:19.769 over again to forge a new identity. In some cases, 2:27:20.250 --> 2:27:26.030 they found limited success. Mostly, they have failed. But in 2:27:26.070 --> 2:27:30.600 those successes and in those failures, they have defined the 2:27:30.640 --> 2:27:34.900 modern world. And that is the story we tell in 2:27:34.920 --> 2:27:38.769 this series. It is the story of Oaxaca and Argentina, 2:27:39.250 --> 2:27:44.120 of Boston and Bosnia, of 30 years of uprisings and 2:27:44.160 --> 2:27:47.200 the worlds we built and lost together. It is the 2:27:47.240 --> 2:27:50.830 story of how the old working class died and how 2:27:50.860 --> 2:27:54.410 a new class struggles to be born in its wake. 2:27:55.690 --> 2:27:57.950 It is the story of how conflict with the state 2:27:58.690 --> 2:28:01.840 came to be the sole force that could put us 2:28:01.940 --> 2:28:05.650 back into the streets. Once we had abandoned the occupation 2:28:05.670 --> 2:28:08.490 of the factories that had been our domain for almost 2:28:08.550 --> 2:28:12.289 a century. And it is a story that even though 2:28:12.390 --> 2:28:15.470 many of us lived through most or even all of 2:28:15.530 --> 2:28:21.010 its components, is already being forgotten. So that today, when 2:28:21.060 --> 2:28:24.039 I speak of the time that workers took a major 2:28:24.100 --> 2:28:28.620 North American city and held it for several months, people 2:28:28.640 --> 2:28:33.209 don't simply don't know that I'm talking about Oaxaca, and 2:28:33.250 --> 2:28:38.650 that those events happened this century, in 2006, a time 2:28:38.830 --> 2:28:43.050 almost all of you listening to this were alive. And 2:28:43.090 --> 2:28:46.929 the economic and social fuels that built these last three 2:28:47.000 --> 2:28:52.440 cycles of uprisings have not gone away. In fact, the 2:28:52.459 --> 2:28:55.860 repression has only grown worse, and whether we like it 2:28:55.920 --> 2:28:59.820 or not, there will be be another cycle of uprisings. 2:29:01.120 --> 2:29:05.510 The question, the question that we all face is this. 2:29:06.830 --> 2:29:08.090 What are you going to do about it? 2:29:20.760 --> 2:29:24.119 This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly 2:29:24.160 --> 2:29:27.520 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and. 2:29:27.459 --> 2:29:29.740 What this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. 2:29:29.780 --> 2:29:33.180 Today I am joined by James Stout, Robert Evans, and 2:29:33.560 --> 2:29:35.600 special correspondent Kim Kelly. 2:29:36.080 --> 2:29:36.420 Hello. 2:29:36.620 --> 2:29:37.170 That's right. 2:29:37.180 --> 2:29:38.170 For me. 2:29:38.190 --> 2:29:41.090 Oh, wait, no, sorry, you're Kim Kelly. I forgot for 2:29:41.129 --> 2:29:41.450 a second. 2:29:42.370 --> 2:29:44.869 Yeah, that's not, no, you're not Kim Kelly, Robert. 2:29:45.350 --> 2:29:45.510 Yeah. 2:29:46.170 --> 2:29:49.000 This episode, we are covering the week of September 9th 2:29:49.060 --> 2:29:54.120 to September 16th. Big news week. Oh dear, where do 2:29:54.140 --> 2:29:54.780 we even begin? 2:29:55.840 --> 2:29:56.580 Where indeed? 2:29:57.340 --> 2:30:00.520 Let's start with a quick update on mail-in voting because 2:30:00.660 --> 2:30:04.140 we've been covering this story the past few weeks. And 2:30:04.500 --> 2:30:09.060 on Sunday night, a second federal judge... blocked the postal 2:30:09.080 --> 2:30:13.349 services newly appointed. It wasn't actually on 9-11. 2:30:13.360 --> 2:30:13.840 I'm sorry. 2:30:13.860 --> 2:30:15.600 Yeah, I thought you were going to do a 9-11 joke. 2:30:16.260 --> 2:30:19.420 It happened like two days after 9-11, so that would 2:30:19.440 --> 2:30:19.990 have been cool. 2:30:20.000 --> 2:30:20.360 Damn it. 2:30:21.510 --> 2:30:23.790 The Justice Department never gives us what we deserve. 2:30:24.770 --> 2:30:25.609 That's certainly true. 2:30:25.990 --> 2:30:29.630 But this second federal judge blocked the newly adopted final 2:30:29.690 --> 2:30:32.129 rule designed to be in compliance with Trump's executive order 2:30:32.170 --> 2:30:36.040 to restrict mail-in voting. This rule laid out new requirements 2:30:36.080 --> 2:30:40.060 for mail-in voting, including standardized envelopes and voter verification through 2:30:40.140 --> 2:30:45.450 a newly created online federal ballot mail portal. And if 2:30:45.530 --> 2:30:47.990 these new requirements, which were announced just a few months 2:30:48.050 --> 2:30:51.310 before the midterms, were not met, the Postal Service said 2:30:51.330 --> 2:30:54.060 that they would not accept or mail out ballots. 2:30:54.720 --> 2:30:55.480 But on Sunday. 2:30:56.150 --> 2:31:01.690 Trump appointee Judge Carl Nichols found USPS lacked the authority 2:31:01.950 --> 2:31:04.990 to require states to submit a list of eligible voters 2:31:05.090 --> 2:31:08.289 to this online portal and only transport ballots to voters 2:31:08.330 --> 2:31:12.369 verified via this portal. Nichols wrote that if the rules implemented, 2:31:12.570 --> 2:31:15.650 there would be a, quote, increased risk that a significant 2:31:15.690 --> 2:31:19.670 number of otherwise appropriate absentee or mail-in ballots will ultimately 2:31:19.810 --> 2:31:24.000 not be counted in the upcoming elections. And this was 2:31:24.040 --> 2:31:26.140 kind of a double whammy for the Trump administration because 2:31:26.180 --> 2:31:30.140 then the next day on Monday, the Supreme Court issued 2:31:30.240 --> 2:31:33.550 a shadow docket ruling, which usually means bad news. But 2:31:33.580 --> 2:31:37.570 in this case, they denied the Trump administration's request to 2:31:37.650 --> 2:31:41.530 lift the first injunction, blocking the implementation of the Postal 2:31:41.570 --> 2:31:44.750 Service's final rule, finding that the government is unlikely to 2:31:44.790 --> 2:31:48.730 succeed on the merits of its challenge. And this appears 2:31:48.790 --> 2:31:52.680 to be a 7-2 ruling. with Clarence Thomas and Samuel 2:31:52.700 --> 2:31:58.859 Alito dissenting. Though, Justice Kavanaugh wrote a one-paragraph concurring opinion, 2:31:59.330 --> 2:32:02.910 which states, there is at least a fair prospect that 2:32:02.930 --> 2:32:06.350 the final rule falls within the Postal Service's statutory authority, 2:32:06.830 --> 2:32:09.910 but applying the rule in the 2026 elections would be 2:32:09.970 --> 2:32:13.810 arbitrary and capricious in violation of the Administrative Procedure Act 2:32:13.890 --> 2:32:16.660 because state and local election officials do not have sufficient 2:32:16.690 --> 2:32:20.740 time to reasonably implement the rule before the elections. So 2:32:20.820 --> 2:32:23.879 that kind of goes against what Trump appointee Judge Carl 2:32:23.940 --> 2:32:29.100 Nichols found in his other separate injunction. But this rule 2:32:29.140 --> 2:32:34.119 will not be implemented, at least for the upcoming midterm elections. Okay. 2:32:34.140 --> 2:32:35.220 Do we want to move on to some of the 2:32:35.240 --> 2:32:35.780 small things? 2:32:36.360 --> 2:32:37.240 Yeah. Yeah. 2:32:37.440 --> 2:32:37.680 Yes. 2:32:38.080 --> 2:32:39.220 Let's do all the small things. 2:32:39.440 --> 2:32:39.580 Yep. 2:32:40.020 --> 2:32:42.800 We found out this week that some of the drone 2:32:42.840 --> 2:32:48.600 attacks on Saudi Arabia's east-west oil pipeline had come from 2:32:48.879 --> 2:32:52.099 inside Iraq. as opposed to coming from Yemen, right? Which 2:32:52.140 --> 2:32:53.760 is where many of the other attacks on Saudi Arabia 2:32:53.780 --> 2:32:56.039 that we're going to cover later have come from. Today, 2:32:56.080 --> 2:32:58.379 I heard that these weren't coming from like the large 2:32:58.820 --> 2:33:01.440 militia groups that you would expect, but from allegedly smaller 2:33:02.050 --> 2:33:07.029 IRGC aligned groups. And a regional operations chief in Iraq 2:33:07.070 --> 2:33:09.110 has been fired as a result of this, right? Like 2:33:09.170 --> 2:33:11.450 as a result of the, I guess, the failure to 2:33:11.790 --> 2:33:16.449 address this. Secondly, the Yebeche, that's Yekine and Beshwadana Shingale, 2:33:16.870 --> 2:33:21.350 the Sinjar resistance units. have agreed to hand over their 2:33:21.370 --> 2:33:24.310 weapons to the Baghdad government and be integrated into the 2:33:24.430 --> 2:33:27.670 security forces. We'll find out if it's kind of a 2:33:27.790 --> 2:33:31.640 similar thing to when the SDF, as the SDF are 2:33:31.670 --> 2:33:34.700 now integrating into the Syrian military. If you're not familiar 2:33:34.720 --> 2:33:38.340 with the YPG, they are a Yazidi armed group with 2:33:38.459 --> 2:33:43.180 close ties to the YPG, so the SDF in Syria 2:33:43.240 --> 2:33:46.960 or the Kurdish elements of the SDF specifically, I guess. 2:33:47.290 --> 2:33:49.950 The Yabashi grew significantly during the battle against the Islamic 2:33:50.030 --> 2:33:53.480 State and, of course, the Islamic State's genocide of the 2:33:53.500 --> 2:33:58.570 Yazidi people. Since then, it's been a pretty complicated security 2:33:58.600 --> 2:34:01.949 situation in the part of Iraq where they reside in 2:34:01.990 --> 2:34:02.550 their homeland. 2:34:03.090 --> 2:34:06.100 Yeah, especially since... As a result of what happened in 2:34:06.120 --> 2:34:09.119 the early stages of the Sinjar campaign, they have no 2:34:09.180 --> 2:34:12.800 reason to trust either the Peshmerga in Kurdistan or the 2:34:12.959 --> 2:34:13.740 government in Baghdad. 2:34:13.800 --> 2:34:15.879 Yeah, because both of them left them more or less 2:34:15.940 --> 2:34:16.760 on their own, right? 2:34:16.780 --> 2:34:17.379 Yeah, to die. 2:34:17.830 --> 2:34:18.000 Yeah. 2:34:18.680 --> 2:34:20.629 Left to die is what people told me when I 2:34:20.670 --> 2:34:21.890 was in the camps they fled to. 2:34:22.150 --> 2:34:23.970 Yeah, left to die is what they told me as well. 2:34:24.570 --> 2:34:26.030 And of course, this is one of the moments when 2:34:26.129 --> 2:34:29.270 the SDF kind of, I guess, really entered the global. 2:34:30.070 --> 2:34:32.800 They weren't the SDF then, right? They were the YPG. No, 2:34:33.020 --> 2:34:35.580 everyone called them just the PKK. That's what all the 2:34:35.600 --> 2:34:38.240 Yazidis I talked to said. Well, some of the people 2:34:38.320 --> 2:34:42.440 who were those initial guerrillas who entered onto the mountain 2:34:42.459 --> 2:34:46.099 there probably had come from the HPG and the PKK. 2:34:46.440 --> 2:34:48.949 We can argue that at length, but it doesn't matter. 2:34:49.610 --> 2:34:52.430 It was not the Iraqi government nor the KRG, the 2:34:52.470 --> 2:34:54.890 Baghdad government nor the KRG. This is something that I'm 2:34:54.930 --> 2:35:00.250 going to keep following. Moving to Iran, the DOD this 2:35:00.310 --> 2:35:03.630 week declassified footage of the rescue of the weapons safety 2:35:03.670 --> 2:35:07.030 officer from Iran. This is the backseater in the plane 2:35:07.050 --> 2:35:09.090 that got shot down, right? The guy who was in 2:35:09.670 --> 2:35:12.369 Iran for a couple of days there where they did 2:35:12.410 --> 2:35:16.940 this crazy search and rescue mission. Interestingly, they didn't blur 2:35:17.020 --> 2:35:19.140 out like the people rescued, well, the people rescued him 2:35:19.160 --> 2:35:21.779 were just visible as human shapes on like a thermal. 2:35:22.580 --> 2:35:24.690 They did blur out the helicopter image. We know they 2:35:24.730 --> 2:35:28.029 have several secret helicopters, but I found that kind of interesting. 2:35:28.610 --> 2:35:30.570 He did an interview where he claimed he hit the ground, 2:35:30.750 --> 2:35:32.610 or they claimed he hit the ground between 70 and 2:35:32.610 --> 2:35:35.510 100 miles an hour. He's looking pretty good for hitting 2:35:35.530 --> 2:35:39.250 the ground that hard. He had a parachute malfunction, apparently. 2:35:40.030 --> 2:35:41.349 I don't know how we could ever confirm any of 2:35:41.390 --> 2:35:46.910 that's true. A FPV drone from Natogy PDFs. They have 2:35:46.950 --> 2:35:49.810 a gender integrated drone unit, right? People have been saying 2:35:49.870 --> 2:35:52.390 it's an all women's drone unit. That's not true. But 2:35:52.410 --> 2:35:53.790 there are certainly women in the drone unit. 2:35:54.300 --> 2:35:58.900 There's many gender-integrated drone units across various militaries. 2:35:58.959 --> 2:35:59.900 Drones love gender. 2:36:00.180 --> 2:36:00.920 You've heard it here, folks. 2:36:00.959 --> 2:36:05.500 Yes. The drone doesn't know gender. It struck a Burmese 2:36:05.550 --> 2:36:08.310 military yacht aircraft on the ground this week. This is 2:36:08.350 --> 2:36:11.110 a significant turning point for the Spring Revolution. They have 2:36:11.129 --> 2:36:14.270 been trying to do this for years. Following the Barmer 2:36:14.310 --> 2:36:17.450 flotilla's demise and the captures of positions the junta has 2:36:17.470 --> 2:36:21.500 held since the 1990s by Karen forces this week, The 2:36:21.510 --> 2:36:24.140 fighting season has really begun in Myanmar, and it's not 2:36:24.320 --> 2:36:27.960 starting that well for the junta. They're also having pretty 2:36:28.660 --> 2:36:32.279 mixed success in attempting an offensive in Rakhine State against 2:36:32.300 --> 2:36:37.300 the Arakan army there. In Syria, protests have begun all 2:36:37.360 --> 2:36:41.119 over the country as fuel and bread prices have risen 2:36:41.160 --> 2:36:44.860 this week. So previously, and certainly in the parts of 2:36:44.879 --> 2:36:47.080 Syria where Robert and I have been, these were subsidized. 2:36:47.820 --> 2:36:51.230 The government has hiked prices because fuel prices are more 2:36:51.250 --> 2:36:55.650 expensive everywhere, right? Because of the war in Iran. But nonetheless, 2:36:55.930 --> 2:36:58.530 this is making things very hard for people. The price 2:36:58.590 --> 2:37:01.470 of petrol went up about 29%. Cooking gas went up 2:37:01.550 --> 2:37:04.390 about 9%. Diesel went up more, like 40%, I think. 2:37:04.510 --> 2:37:06.209 And people have been leading with like 40% fuel hike. 2:37:07.680 --> 2:37:10.040 But we should be honest and talk about the fuel 2:37:10.060 --> 2:37:14.520 that most people are using. Nonetheless, this is making things 2:37:14.600 --> 2:37:16.840 very difficult for people, which is why they're in the streets. 2:37:17.160 --> 2:37:20.170 And this is one of the first big protest movements. 2:37:20.370 --> 2:37:23.790 This new protest movements, I should say, in places it 2:37:24.010 --> 2:37:26.670 considers to be part of its constituency that this new 2:37:26.709 --> 2:37:29.930 government has had to deal with. Obviously, it's dealt with protests. 2:37:30.750 --> 2:37:33.939 and has had armed conflict with other people within Syria 2:37:34.500 --> 2:37:38.500 since the transitional government came to power. Finally, in the US, 2:37:38.660 --> 2:37:43.320 a Massachusetts district court judge has blocked the Trump administration's 2:37:43.360 --> 2:37:48.000 attempt to reduce student visas to four years. Previously, it 2:37:48.020 --> 2:37:51.359 seemed that they were trying to restrict F1 visas period 2:37:51.420 --> 2:37:53.359 to four years from what I read in this judgment. 2:37:54.010 --> 2:37:56.750 And then you'd have to apply for an extension, like 2:37:56.810 --> 2:37:58.910 if you're doing a PhD or if you're undergraduate, it 2:37:58.930 --> 2:38:01.090 just takes more than four years, right? The court went 2:38:01.170 --> 2:38:03.390 on a great length about how this was a bad idea. 2:38:03.450 --> 2:38:05.960 And then went, we can't actually rule on whether it's 2:38:05.980 --> 2:38:07.480 a bad idea or not, but we can say it 2:38:07.520 --> 2:38:10.340 violates the Administrative Procedure Act, which it does. So that 2:38:10.379 --> 2:38:11.720 was the grounds on which they blocked it. 2:38:13.030 --> 2:38:16.030 All right, and now it's time for undeniably our biggest 2:38:16.050 --> 2:38:18.890 story of the week. Kim Kelly, please, what do you 2:38:18.910 --> 2:38:19.420 have for us? 2:38:20.110 --> 2:38:23.959 So, in pop culture news, everyone's talking about the Ed 2:38:24.000 --> 2:38:30.330 Sheeran-Macklemore controversy. Early this week, Sheeran, who comedian Zach Woods 2:38:30.930 --> 2:38:35.490 accurately described on Instagram as an internationally tolerated acoustic. 2:38:35.190 --> 2:38:44.099 Guitarist wow i wouldn't put it quite that far what 2:38:44.160 --> 2:38:45.920 a precision hit. 2:38:46.040 --> 2:38:48.900 I love zack wood so much he man if i 2:38:48.920 --> 2:38:50.959 was single daddy call me that's all i'm gonna say 2:38:51.060 --> 2:38:54.850 but okay also british so first problem there honestly. 2:38:54.970 --> 2:38:55.570 Okay, rude. 2:38:56.010 --> 2:38:56.670 Okay. 2:38:56.709 --> 2:38:57.670 Same with Ed Sheeran. 2:38:57.870 --> 2:39:00.250 No, not that cool. Ed Sheeran is British. I would 2:39:00.310 --> 2:39:01.590 never lust after an Englishman. 2:39:01.750 --> 2:39:02.170 Wow. 2:39:03.290 --> 2:39:04.710 Jeez, ouch, James. 2:39:04.770 --> 2:39:07.780 Taking strays left and right. My God. 2:39:07.800 --> 2:39:08.300 Brutal. 2:39:08.440 --> 2:39:10.400 Keep entering the chat hard. 2:39:10.840 --> 2:39:11.340 Brutal. 2:39:11.379 --> 2:39:14.600 My first husband was from Wigan, so I know a 2:39:14.640 --> 2:39:15.860 lot about what y'all get up to. 2:39:15.940 --> 2:39:18.280 I want you to understand that you have not picked 2:39:18.340 --> 2:39:19.520 a representative sample. 2:39:19.540 --> 2:39:19.720 Okay. 2:39:21.810 --> 2:39:24.710 Smacked the bomb. I know what y'all get up to. 2:39:24.950 --> 2:39:30.130 That accent does not fool me. But anyway, hard-hitting political news, James. 2:39:31.750 --> 2:39:37.830 This Jinhoo man made headlines earlier this week when he 2:39:37.870 --> 2:39:42.340 announced that Seattle rapper Macklemore was out as the supporting 2:39:42.459 --> 2:39:48.020 act on Sheeran's current Loop World Tour. And the reason... Apparently, 2:39:48.040 --> 2:39:52.560 Macklemore's vocal support for Palestine and refusal to stay silent 2:39:52.600 --> 2:39:56.210 about a genocide was just a bridge too far for 2:39:56.290 --> 2:40:01.410 the self-identified non-political pop star, as well as the consortium 2:40:01.430 --> 2:40:04.890 of wealthy venue owners who are backing his tour. So 2:40:05.070 --> 2:40:08.220 here's what happened. During the tour's first two shows, which 2:40:08.260 --> 2:40:11.320 took place at New Jersey's MetLife Stadium on September 4th 2:40:11.340 --> 2:40:15.500 and 5th, Macklemore said the words, free Palestine on stage. 2:40:15.860 --> 2:40:20.740 First problem. and performed his pro-Palestine song, Heinz Hall, which 2:40:20.780 --> 2:40:24.440 he released in 2024 in memory of Heinz Rajab and 2:40:24.480 --> 2:40:26.840 in support of the Gaza Solidarity encampment that was then 2:40:26.959 --> 2:40:31.240 active at Columbia University. As you'll remember, Rajab, a five-year-old 2:40:31.260 --> 2:40:34.959 Palestinian girl who was brutally killed by the Israeli military 2:40:35.040 --> 2:40:37.260 along with six of her family members in January of 2:40:37.300 --> 2:40:40.240 that year, has become one of the many symbols of 2:40:40.260 --> 2:40:43.619 the ongoing genocide in Gaza, about which Macklemore has been 2:40:43.670 --> 2:40:47.500 extremely vocal. Not a big secret there. And at the 2:40:47.540 --> 2:40:50.879 second MetLife show, he used his platform to directly address 2:40:50.940 --> 2:40:54.760 his Jewish brothers and sisters, as he said in the audience, saying, 2:40:54.780 --> 2:40:59.670 I quote, Criticism of Israel, criticism of apartheid, being against 2:40:59.730 --> 2:41:03.430 genocide is in no way a criticism of you. This 2:41:03.510 --> 2:41:07.250 message is for peace, love, for all human beings to 2:41:07.270 --> 2:41:13.140 be treated with dignity, respect, and equality. So the Israeli-American 2:41:13.180 --> 2:41:16.900 council did not agree. They were like, no, absolutely not. 2:41:17.890 --> 2:41:21.410 and publicly called on Sheeran to drop Macklemore from the tour. 2:41:21.430 --> 2:41:26.349 And then Robert Kraft, who owns the New England Patriots, boo, 2:41:26.610 --> 2:41:30.910 go birds, as well as Gillette Stadium, a venue which 2:41:30.950 --> 2:41:33.820 the tour was scheduled to stop later this week, informed 2:41:33.860 --> 2:41:37.540 Sheeran that Macklemore had to go. The rapper noted in 2:41:37.600 --> 2:41:40.340 his public Instagram statement about the matter that Sheeran had 2:41:40.420 --> 2:41:43.279 told him that Kraft called on his other stadium owner 2:41:43.340 --> 2:41:46.539 pals to increase the pressure to get Macklemore out of there. 2:41:47.570 --> 2:41:51.470 And it worked. According to Rolling Stone, the tour promoter, 2:41:51.570 --> 2:41:54.470 Messina Touring Group, was informed by the owners of these 2:41:54.550 --> 2:41:57.550 venues that, quote, they will not allow a concert to 2:41:57.590 --> 2:42:00.550 take place with Macklemore on the lineup, which would result 2:42:00.610 --> 2:42:03.070 in the cancellation of the tour and impact hundreds of 2:42:03.110 --> 2:42:08.090 thousands of fans. So Macklemore got dropped. and he released 2:42:08.129 --> 2:42:09.950 a very good statement about it, in which he was 2:42:10.230 --> 2:42:12.670 really generous to his old buddy, Sheeran. Like, this was 2:42:12.730 --> 2:42:15.830 not just a ring appearing. Like, they're homies. 2:42:16.090 --> 2:42:19.060 Yeah, as hard as that is to imagine. Although, I 2:42:19.090 --> 2:42:21.760 guess I can imagine Matthew Horne and Sheeran getting along. 2:42:21.820 --> 2:42:22.619 I just don't like to. 2:42:22.640 --> 2:42:25.119 Yeah, there's some overlap there. 2:42:25.760 --> 2:42:28.760 The Seattle vibes are very strong. 2:42:29.300 --> 2:42:32.500 Yeah, like, just having a shitty tattoo off, like, it 2:42:32.520 --> 2:42:32.880 makes sense. 2:42:32.900 --> 2:42:34.160 Yeah, get Ben Affleck in there. 2:42:34.620 --> 2:42:37.490 Kim has shared a picture of Ed Sheeran's tattoos that 2:42:37.530 --> 2:42:40.070 has rendered me speechless for the entire time. 2:42:40.270 --> 2:42:41.290 I had not seen these. 2:42:41.550 --> 2:42:41.850 Oh, dude. 2:42:41.870 --> 2:42:42.530 They're real. 2:42:43.030 --> 2:42:45.529 Unreal, man. Like, I'm going to put them in the 2:42:45.570 --> 2:42:49.270 Zoom chat. Like, is there a fucking Ghana flag on 2:42:49.300 --> 2:42:49.699 this guy? 2:42:49.720 --> 2:42:53.379 There's so many things. He's got Irish stuff. 2:42:53.440 --> 2:42:54.339 It's a big lion. 2:42:54.420 --> 2:42:55.720 He has a ketchup bottle. 2:42:56.140 --> 2:42:58.080 Lads on tour, fuck off. 2:42:58.480 --> 2:43:02.070 As a tattoo American, I am just so excited. mad 2:43:02.110 --> 2:43:04.050 when I see this stuff because like this man has 2:43:04.090 --> 2:43:04.930 more money than. 2:43:04.870 --> 2:43:08.330 God a poke bowl also he is so bad at 2:43:08.400 --> 2:43:10.480 finding people to do good line work that poke bowl 2:43:10.520 --> 2:43:14.240 looks like shit the pizza the proportions are fucked everything's 2:43:14.620 --> 2:43:17.820 like bled like fucking blown out on those those weird 2:43:17.900 --> 2:43:21.019 picture frame pieces on the back like it's just bad. 2:43:20.959 --> 2:43:24.120 Ink look like there's a difference between a dumb tattoo 2:43:24.160 --> 2:43:28.400 and a shitty tattoo and this man because I had 2:43:28.459 --> 2:43:31.700 dumb tattoos but like The lines work. 2:43:31.910 --> 2:43:34.910 I've gotten tattooed in war zones, but at least they're competent. 2:43:35.030 --> 2:43:37.970 I've watched you with a guy with a car battery. 2:43:40.290 --> 2:43:42.370 The lip tattoo I got in a West Philly kitchen 2:43:42.390 --> 2:43:46.330 when I was 19 looks better than this man's entire situation. 2:43:46.350 --> 2:43:48.630 The stick and poke my buddy gave me. 2:43:50.030 --> 2:43:52.670 Some of these are watercolor guys as well, so they're 2:43:52.709 --> 2:43:55.050 not likely to get better over time. 2:43:55.730 --> 2:43:57.350 Is that a lion on his heart? 2:43:57.530 --> 2:43:57.650 Yes. 2:43:58.060 --> 2:43:58.620 Oh, yeah. 2:43:58.920 --> 2:44:00.620 Dude, I feel a little bad because I found his 2:44:00.640 --> 2:44:03.580 tattoo artist on Instagram because I'm a nosy bitch. And 2:44:03.620 --> 2:44:07.160 the guy's like, he just knows his career's kind of over. 2:44:07.260 --> 2:44:09.320 I feel like Ed Sheeran is just paying his rent 2:44:09.360 --> 2:44:12.850 with his bad tattoos because you can't come back from that. 2:44:13.709 --> 2:44:14.790 Yeah, wow, man. 2:44:15.190 --> 2:44:15.570 God. 2:44:16.230 --> 2:44:18.030 Yeah, I could do a whole, you could do a 2:44:18.070 --> 2:44:19.110 dissertation on this shit. 2:44:19.190 --> 2:44:19.869 Someone should. 2:44:20.209 --> 2:44:22.110 Someone should, yeah. Hit us up if you already have. 2:44:22.129 --> 2:44:25.510 I mean, I will do an entire episode about celebrity tattoos. 2:44:25.879 --> 2:44:28.279 I'm wondering if maybe my grandparents were right about tattoos. 2:44:29.879 --> 2:44:33.060 I could do a solid hour on Ben Affleck's back tattoo, 2:44:33.080 --> 2:44:38.140 but that's a respectable, that's a respectable shitty tattoo. That's 2:44:38.200 --> 2:44:41.340 a whole back piece that's just a phoenix and like 2:44:41.440 --> 2:44:44.150 nothing else on his body. Like that's a beautiful choice 2:44:44.490 --> 2:44:47.590 that says only good things about Ben Affleck, in my opinion. 2:44:47.830 --> 2:44:50.150 That's an honest man's tattoo. That's for him. 2:44:50.190 --> 2:44:52.629 That's an honest man's God awful tattoo. 2:44:55.020 --> 2:44:55.920 You know that's for him. 2:44:57.480 --> 2:44:58.750 Yeah, yeah. 2:44:58.830 --> 2:45:01.070 No one else ever got a moment of enjoyment out 2:45:01.100 --> 2:45:01.650 of that piece. 2:45:02.260 --> 2:45:08.730 Oh, my God. Poor J-Lo. So, Ed Sheeran, very bad tattoos, 2:45:08.770 --> 2:45:12.830 but also a worm person. Like, oh, this is happening. 2:45:12.850 --> 2:45:18.270 And Ed Sheeran takes to Instagram... Because everyone's extremely mad 2:45:18.310 --> 2:45:22.550 at him for doing something really just not cool and 2:45:22.610 --> 2:45:27.800 wimpy and unfortunate and embarrassing. So his response, he sold 2:45:27.959 --> 2:45:31.620 out his boy. He blamed the concert promoters for dropping 2:45:31.660 --> 2:45:34.080 Mack Moore saying it wasn't me. It was these big, 2:45:34.120 --> 2:45:35.900 mean people that I pay lots of money to book 2:45:35.920 --> 2:45:36.480 my shows. 2:45:36.959 --> 2:45:37.199 Yeah. 2:45:37.540 --> 2:45:39.200 And then I have leverage over it because they also 2:45:39.220 --> 2:45:39.640 they want. 2:45:39.520 --> 2:45:40.000 To make money. 2:45:40.830 --> 2:45:41.270 Yeah. 2:45:41.400 --> 2:45:45.560 He wrote in one section, I am not complicit, which 2:45:45.620 --> 2:45:48.920 is absolutely what someone who is complicit would say. 2:45:49.200 --> 2:45:51.279 My I am not complicit shirt has a lot of 2:45:51.320 --> 2:45:52.680 people asking questions. 2:45:53.120 --> 2:45:54.840 Yeah, man, I don't know. 2:45:55.020 --> 2:45:57.789 Remember the SNL skit with ScarJo that was making fun 2:45:57.830 --> 2:45:59.670 of Ivanka Trump being like, complicit. 2:46:00.680 --> 2:46:01.520 Oh, God, yeah. 2:46:01.560 --> 2:46:01.779 Right? 2:46:01.820 --> 2:46:03.680 Yeah, deep cut. Like, if you have to say, I 2:46:03.740 --> 2:46:05.480 am not complicit, like, dog. 2:46:05.740 --> 2:46:06.840 Yeah, you already fucked up. 2:46:07.180 --> 2:46:12.260 But absolutely, like, complicit in trying to silence pro-Palestinian sentiment, 2:46:12.350 --> 2:46:14.650 just because he's a coward, and also in bowing to 2:46:14.690 --> 2:46:18.629 pressure from billionaires like his buddy Robert Kraft, who casually, 2:46:18.650 --> 2:46:22.770 a former Epstein associate, and also an old pal of Sheeran's, 2:46:23.170 --> 2:46:25.500 he performed at Kraft's wedding in 2022 to a very 2:46:25.510 --> 2:46:26.030 much younger woman. 2:46:26.080 --> 2:46:26.200 So. 2:46:29.770 --> 2:46:32.610 You know, I guess that's being nonpolitical, hanging out with 2:46:32.629 --> 2:46:37.010 those type of people. And, you know, Shirin, he can't 2:46:37.050 --> 2:46:41.870 pretend to have been blindsided, right? Like, Nakamura's pro-Palestinian stance 2:46:41.930 --> 2:46:44.320 is kind of like all he's known for. It's like 2:46:44.379 --> 2:46:47.020 the thing that he's doing right now, which is cool. 2:46:47.080 --> 2:46:50.660 We don't need another fish shop. One was enough. He's 2:46:50.680 --> 2:46:54.020 had a successful career. Like, he had his big 2010 hits. Like, 2:46:54.740 --> 2:46:57.119 as Nakamura said in his statement, like, he can afford 2:46:57.160 --> 2:46:59.510 to take this kind of hit. he can afford to 2:46:59.610 --> 2:47:02.730 use his platform to speak out for Palestinian people, for 2:47:02.770 --> 2:47:07.620 people who are being murdered and just destroyed, while some 2:47:07.660 --> 2:47:10.960 people would rather keep politics out of everything. And his 2:47:11.000 --> 2:47:14.340 relationship dates back to that era. The two have collaborated 2:47:14.450 --> 2:47:17.209 on songs, like Ed Sheeran was on a song that 2:47:17.270 --> 2:47:19.930 Macklemore released for his daughter when his first kid was 2:47:19.959 --> 2:47:24.580 born in like 2015. So Ed Sheeran knows Macklemore pretty well. 2:47:25.080 --> 2:47:27.180 He's definitely aware that the rapper's become one of the 2:47:27.320 --> 2:47:31.720 loudest pro-Palestine voices in mainstream pop. And Sheeran is worth 2:47:31.780 --> 2:47:33.820 like $ 400 million. 2:47:34.490 --> 2:47:36.930 My God, how did we let that happen? 2:47:36.990 --> 2:47:40.110 Internationally tolerated pop star. Oh my God. 2:47:40.540 --> 2:47:43.080 All I knew is he had that song in that 2:47:43.140 --> 2:47:45.119 Hobbit movie, which is how I heard of him. And 2:47:45.150 --> 2:47:47.410 then suddenly he's got almost half a billion dollars. What 2:47:47.420 --> 2:47:49.390 the fuck did you people do in between? 2:47:49.470 --> 2:47:50.390 Dude, the radio. 2:47:50.430 --> 2:47:51.189 How did this happen? 2:47:51.209 --> 2:47:53.590 There's wild stuff happening on the radio, dude. It's like 2:47:53.650 --> 2:47:56.550 a whole other world. He is very much like America 2:47:56.590 --> 2:48:02.370 Beast's pop star. It's dicey, right? But one of the 2:48:02.430 --> 2:48:05.090 reasons he reached for to explain why he kicked his 2:48:05.129 --> 2:48:07.830 old buddy off of this tour for saying the forbidden 2:48:08.410 --> 2:48:12.080 words is was that he had to keep touring because 2:48:12.120 --> 2:48:14.460 his crew depends on him. Ed Sheeran employs a lot 2:48:14.500 --> 2:48:17.430 of people to bring his nonsense on the road. And 2:48:17.550 --> 2:48:19.550 it is good to acknowledge that workers need to be 2:48:19.590 --> 2:48:22.920 paid no matter what kind of nonsense is happening. But like, Eddie. 2:48:23.390 --> 2:48:24.770 I feel like you could just pay him. You could 2:48:24.790 --> 2:48:28.000 just give him money. You got $ 400 million. I mean, 2:48:28.010 --> 2:48:29.220 that is quite a lot of money. 2:48:29.400 --> 2:48:33.300 You got a smorg pile of cash at your house. 2:48:33.740 --> 2:48:36.200 I'm not casual about the creators, oh, just pay for 2:48:36.220 --> 2:48:38.940 it yourself thing, but $ 400 million, you could pay everyone's 2:48:38.959 --> 2:48:41.619 salary for that show and still have. 2:48:41.500 --> 2:48:42.300 Basically $ 400 million. Also forever. 2:48:43.560 --> 2:48:43.920 Right? 2:48:45.420 --> 2:48:46.580 Send him to Bali. 2:48:46.940 --> 2:48:47.420 Yeah. 2:48:47.640 --> 2:48:50.340 You could also just score a huge dub. I don't 2:48:50.360 --> 2:48:52.600 think I've ever consciously heard an Ed Sheeran song, but 2:48:52.620 --> 2:48:54.470 if he'd done that, I'd have been like, okay, cool. 2:48:54.730 --> 2:48:57.430 Here's the thing. I don't like Macklemore, but I have 2:48:57.450 --> 2:48:59.670 been forced to be like, oh, wow, that's a respectable 2:48:59.709 --> 2:49:02.230 person with moral courage. And I'd have to say that 2:49:02.290 --> 2:49:05.129 about Ed Sheeran if he hadn't fucked up his response. 2:49:05.209 --> 2:49:07.980 You could make me I could be miserable right now, Ed. 2:49:08.100 --> 2:49:10.380 I could be acknowledging you have worth as a human being, 2:49:10.420 --> 2:49:12.160 but I don't have to. Thank God. 2:49:12.360 --> 2:49:13.280 Well, no, the. 2:49:13.160 --> 2:49:15.580 Way the ways in which he has fumbled this are 2:49:15.600 --> 2:49:18.800 just it's becoming not just like a blip. It's becoming 2:49:18.840 --> 2:49:23.869 a generational fumble because his entire tour is just in 2:49:23.950 --> 2:49:24.610 the toilet. 2:49:24.770 --> 2:49:25.690 Like, oh, yeah. 2:49:25.770 --> 2:49:30.300 Hours after the news broke that Macklemore got got. Four 2:49:30.480 --> 2:49:33.279 of Ed Sheeran's other supporting acts dropped off the tour 2:49:33.480 --> 2:49:35.099 in solidarity with Macklemore. 2:49:35.180 --> 2:49:38.260 Including his backing band. Yeah, his own band. 2:49:38.040 --> 2:49:38.440 Quit his tour. 2:49:38.459 --> 2:49:42.170 That's the funniest part. Like, it's so good. And they 2:49:42.290 --> 2:49:45.710 also were all like, yeah, also Free Palestine, you fucking idiot. 2:49:47.629 --> 2:49:50.410 He came out looking so bad. He lost Aaron Rowe, 2:49:50.450 --> 2:49:54.500 who's Irish, Lucas Graham, Danish, French. Guy named Phineas, who 2:49:54.620 --> 2:49:55.859 is American, but, you know. 2:49:56.080 --> 2:49:58.080 He's Billie Eilish's brother. 2:49:58.120 --> 2:50:00.710 Yeah, I learned this against my will yesterday as well. 2:50:00.930 --> 2:50:02.230 There you go. Well. 2:50:02.550 --> 2:50:02.970 Okay. 2:50:03.410 --> 2:50:05.670 I'm clearly up on the pop men. 2:50:06.209 --> 2:50:06.529 Yeah. 2:50:06.730 --> 2:50:10.800 And Billie Eilish has spoken out against the genocide in 2:50:10.879 --> 2:50:13.180 Gaza and is pro-Palestine. 2:50:13.400 --> 2:50:14.020 So it makes sense. 2:50:14.040 --> 2:50:14.220 Sick. 2:50:14.770 --> 2:50:17.130 You got to wonder, like, he hired a bunch of 2:50:17.370 --> 2:50:19.670 Irish musicians, first of all, and I was like, surely 2:50:19.709 --> 2:50:21.810 they'll be quiet about politics. 2:50:22.010 --> 2:50:22.400 Yeah. 2:50:22.660 --> 2:50:24.959 If the Irish have a reputation, it's for being quiet 2:50:25.000 --> 2:50:26.000 about stuff like this. 2:50:26.840 --> 2:50:27.040 Yeah. 2:50:27.100 --> 2:50:31.540 Famously, especially Palestine, there isn't any kind of, you know, overlap, 2:50:31.600 --> 2:50:35.710 any current solidarity efforts. One of his backing band, I 2:50:35.730 --> 2:50:38.750 found out through their statement, is that they're founding members 2:50:38.810 --> 2:50:40.830 of the Irish Artists for Palestine movement. 2:50:40.850 --> 2:50:41.410 Yeah. 2:50:43.000 --> 2:50:43.700 What did you think? 2:50:43.720 --> 2:50:45.080 Probably could have Googled that, Ed. 2:50:45.100 --> 2:50:51.080 I love he literally didn't Google anyone before making his 2:50:51.150 --> 2:50:55.610 cowardly little thing. Where does everyone else stand on this? 2:50:55.629 --> 2:50:58.050 And you've got to wonder, this has never come up 2:50:58.090 --> 2:51:01.410 when you're at the bar. Literally no one you've ever 2:51:01.470 --> 2:51:04.250 spoken to is like, oh, yeah, so the news. 2:51:04.550 --> 2:51:06.949 You're going to Robert Craft Stadium, right? The guy who 2:51:07.070 --> 2:51:10.459 rents his plane to ICE to deport people. Like, the 2:51:10.500 --> 2:51:15.020 fucking rapt Patriot Jets takes people to be fucking deported. 2:51:15.080 --> 2:51:18.359 It tears families apart. Like, you think your buddies aren't 2:51:18.379 --> 2:51:19.600 going to have a problem with this? 2:51:19.660 --> 2:51:20.940 Like, wild. 2:51:21.100 --> 2:51:24.000 It's that, like, so many of the statements all said, like, 2:51:24.040 --> 2:51:27.300 we know he's giving us this huge opportunity. Like, it's 2:51:27.360 --> 2:51:29.519 a stadium tour. Like, there's going to be all these 2:51:29.580 --> 2:51:34.220 hundreds of thousands of fans. And it's really impressive that 2:51:34.260 --> 2:51:37.600 all these bands were just like, look, this is kind 2:51:37.620 --> 2:51:40.850 of going to fuck us, but... Some things are more important. 2:51:41.850 --> 2:51:43.990 And it also just makes Ed Sheeran look like even 2:51:44.030 --> 2:51:46.330 more of a bitch because he has so much money. 2:51:47.150 --> 2:51:52.640 And you can't be cool for one minute. All of 2:51:52.680 --> 2:51:55.879 your friends just bailed on you. Everyone can see you 2:51:56.040 --> 2:51:59.620 being the worst. And Macklemore just today, I think it 2:51:59.640 --> 2:52:02.670 was today, he posted that he's donating all the money 2:52:02.680 --> 2:52:06.110 that he got paid for those two shows to six 2:52:06.209 --> 2:52:10.590 organizations that are working to help Palestinian people. So Macklemore 2:52:10.650 --> 2:52:13.610 is like Mackling even harder and better. 2:52:14.209 --> 2:52:15.830 He's Mackling more. 2:52:16.170 --> 2:52:16.990 God damn it. 2:52:17.010 --> 2:52:18.029 God damn it. 2:52:18.050 --> 2:52:21.860 He's Mackling the correct amount, man. Like we were all wrong. 2:52:21.900 --> 2:52:25.200 Yeah, we were all wrong. Not familiar with his game. 2:52:26.040 --> 2:52:28.440 But thankfully we were all pretty much right about Ed Sheeran. 2:52:28.540 --> 2:52:29.240 At least there's that. 2:52:30.530 --> 2:52:32.629 I guess maybe I'll do a full episode about this 2:52:32.670 --> 2:52:35.109 at some point, but I have found some people on 2:52:35.129 --> 2:52:37.790 the internet left's response to this to be frustrating, which 2:52:37.850 --> 2:52:41.340 is shocking, right? People who are never wrong. Culture is important. 2:52:41.760 --> 2:52:44.100 Anyone who is arguing with you seriously that culture is 2:52:44.140 --> 2:52:47.539 not important is not a serious person. If we look 2:52:47.560 --> 2:52:50.500 at the movement against apartheid and the role that culture 2:52:50.860 --> 2:52:55.780 and music and sport played in that, almost every other 2:52:56.200 --> 2:52:59.680 liberation movement in the 20th century had a cultural element 2:52:59.730 --> 2:53:01.370 to it. if you're going to really get a bit 2:53:01.390 --> 2:53:05.610 like a fucking crass materialist in, in 2026, just like 2:53:06.370 --> 2:53:08.230 don't engage with those people. I know I'm engaging with 2:53:08.250 --> 2:53:10.690 them here, but like it's a deeply unserious response. 2:53:11.250 --> 2:53:14.720 Like there's not everyone lives on Twitter or discord, like 2:53:14.820 --> 2:53:18.580 seeing this news is on ESPN. This news has broken 2:53:18.640 --> 2:53:20.360 containment from the lefty internet. 2:53:20.520 --> 2:53:20.840 Yeah. 2:53:21.220 --> 2:53:24.060 And like any normal person who reads, Oh, this guy 2:53:24.100 --> 2:53:26.400 just said some nice stuff and said free Palestine. And 2:53:26.440 --> 2:53:28.570 he got kicked off this big tour. Like that's kind 2:53:28.600 --> 2:53:31.060 of weird. Like, why is that? Why can't you just 2:53:31.080 --> 2:53:31.520 say that? 2:53:31.780 --> 2:53:32.100 Yeah. 2:53:32.160 --> 2:53:34.640 Like, I think they're even discussing it on Fox News. 2:53:34.740 --> 2:53:38.460 And Jesse Waters, that, you know, sentient douchebag was like, well, 2:53:38.480 --> 2:53:41.320 you just said free Palestine. I mean, that's allowed freedom 2:53:41.340 --> 2:53:41.720 of speech. 2:53:42.520 --> 2:53:44.539 Tucker Carlson's going to endorse Michael Moore next. 2:53:44.780 --> 2:53:50.220 Oh, fuck. This is the trouble, right? All's left to say, 2:53:50.260 --> 2:53:54.240 you know, so what have we learned? It's always free Palestine. 2:53:54.260 --> 2:53:58.160 Ed Sheeran is a worm person, again, to quote, our 2:53:58.220 --> 2:54:01.840 internet daddy, Zach Woods and Macklemore, you know, just, just 2:54:01.920 --> 2:54:03.740 keep on Macklin, babe. You're doing amazing. 2:54:04.560 --> 2:54:04.990 You know what? 2:54:05.000 --> 2:54:07.209 There's a, there's a non-zero chance we will have an 2:54:07.350 --> 2:54:09.770 advert that includes a music of Ed Sheeran after this. 2:54:10.890 --> 2:54:13.370 If that happens to you, it's your own fault for 2:54:13.410 --> 2:54:14.510 the cookies in your browser. 2:54:14.810 --> 2:54:14.970 Yeah. 2:54:27.580 --> 2:54:32.420 And we're back. Let's start with Saudi Arabia. On September 8th, 2:54:32.540 --> 2:54:35.540 Saudi oil structure in the Jizan region was targeted and 2:54:35.600 --> 2:54:38.880 struck by Houthi missiles. At least 73 people were wounded, 2:54:38.959 --> 2:54:41.859 and oil assets in the Abha and Najran regions were 2:54:41.879 --> 2:54:45.180 hit as well. NASA satellites show significant damage to the 2:54:45.220 --> 2:54:49.570 Jazan refinery and other infrastructure. This is significant because Jazan 2:54:49.650 --> 2:54:52.289 is located on the Saudi side of the Red Sea, 2:54:52.370 --> 2:54:54.850 which provides an alternate route for them to transit their 2:54:54.890 --> 2:54:57.960 fuel and avoid the Strait of Hormuz. Despite the Trump 2:54:58.000 --> 2:55:01.080 administration's claims and some reports that, you know, the traffic 2:55:01.120 --> 2:55:04.650 has been trending up as the U.S. Navy escort ships through, 2:55:05.030 --> 2:55:09.910 traffic at the strait is still disastrously unreliable. In 2025, 2:55:09.910 --> 2:55:12.590 about 21 million barrels a day were moving through the 2:55:12.629 --> 2:55:15.280 strait at this point that year. And right now we're 2:55:15.420 --> 2:55:17.840 barely breaking 5 million barrels most days. 2:55:18.200 --> 2:55:18.440 Right. 2:55:18.820 --> 2:55:22.170 So that's a significant drop still. Any infrastructure that has 2:55:22.230 --> 2:55:25.390 allowed Saudi Arabia to bypass the Strait of Hormuz has 2:55:25.410 --> 2:55:28.160 thus assumed extra importance in the last couple of months. 2:55:28.560 --> 2:55:31.760 So these strikes have at least temporarily forced Saudi Arabia 2:55:31.800 --> 2:55:35.160 to shut down their east-west pipeline. And this is one 2:55:35.180 --> 2:55:38.359 of the largest pieces of oil infrastructure on the planet. 2:55:38.480 --> 2:55:41.620 It goes across some very high mountains, and it's effectively 2:55:41.680 --> 2:55:45.630 impossible to defend in its entirety, right? It is too 2:55:45.709 --> 2:55:49.750 big to to be adequately defended, either from small infiltration teams, 2:55:49.770 --> 2:55:52.020 which hasn't happened yet, but very well might at some 2:55:52.060 --> 2:55:54.240 point in the future. You know, they've got some options 2:55:54.260 --> 2:55:57.480 for that. But right now, they're doing quite well, striking 2:55:57.520 --> 2:56:01.160 them with ballistics and drones. Per an article in the 2:56:01.220 --> 2:56:03.570 New Arab, quote, the kingdom is still able to export 2:56:03.590 --> 2:56:05.470 part of its oil, which is piped to Yanbo, and 2:56:05.510 --> 2:56:08.670 then exported either via the Suez Canal or Egypt's Ain Sukhna, 2:56:08.990 --> 2:56:11.709 where it is carried by another pipeline to the eastern Mediterranean. 2:56:12.310 --> 2:56:14.310 The other option for Saudi Arabia is embarking on a 2:56:14.390 --> 2:56:17.070 dangerous journey through the Hormuz Strait, where Iran has repeatedly 2:56:17.129 --> 2:56:21.490 attacked commercial shipping. And, you know, how long is the 2:56:21.570 --> 2:56:24.929 east-west pipeline going to be shut down? I think you'll 2:56:24.990 --> 2:56:27.510 probably hear fairly soon, maybe even by the time you 2:56:27.550 --> 2:56:31.029 hear this, that they've got it going again. The problem 2:56:31.110 --> 2:56:33.250 is we're not likely to see it returning to anything 2:56:33.330 --> 2:56:36.750 like full capacity, and it's going to be going off again. Like, 2:56:36.930 --> 2:56:40.050 they're going to keep hitting it, right, is my contention. 2:56:40.580 --> 2:56:42.379 So this is not, and it's like the straight, right? 2:56:42.400 --> 2:56:45.300 This doesn't mean that the pipeline shut down for good. 2:56:45.440 --> 2:56:47.820 And likewise, when you hear they're shipping stuff through it again, 2:56:48.160 --> 2:56:50.560 that doesn't mean the problem is over, right? It means 2:56:50.580 --> 2:56:53.830 this is yet another piece of world critical oil infrastructure 2:56:54.230 --> 2:56:57.490 that is kind of flickering on off like your router 2:56:57.590 --> 2:57:01.350 when the internet's fucked up, right? Like that's the problem 2:57:01.390 --> 2:57:04.850 the world is dealing with right now. So this adds 2:57:04.910 --> 2:57:07.390 fuel to what has already been a long building calamity. 2:57:07.410 --> 2:57:09.070 And I don't need to inform anyone of like how 2:57:09.170 --> 2:57:11.600 critical oil and gas is to the basic infrastructure that 2:57:11.640 --> 2:57:14.830 makes civilization possible. The thing I am focusing on a 2:57:14.890 --> 2:57:17.030 lot right now because it really concerns me is what 2:57:17.050 --> 2:57:21.150 we're seeing happen with fertilizer costs. Fertilizer costs have skyrocketed 2:57:21.230 --> 2:57:23.070 as a result of the shedding off of the strait already. 2:57:23.560 --> 2:57:25.800 Earlier this year, there were serious worries that this would 2:57:25.820 --> 2:57:28.560 cause a massive food crisis in parts of Southeast Asia 2:57:28.620 --> 2:57:31.820 and Africa, which relied heavily on nitrogen shipped through the 2:57:31.840 --> 2:57:34.660 Strait of Hormuz to make fertilizer. And the good news 2:57:34.720 --> 2:57:37.500 is that the worst of this immediate crisis may have 2:57:37.520 --> 2:57:39.530 been averted, or at least has been averted for the 2:57:39.570 --> 2:57:42.539 present time. although not without cost, as this piece in 2:57:42.560 --> 2:57:46.590 the Financial Times explains. Egypt and Nigeria increased their urea 2:57:46.709 --> 2:57:50.890 exports by 98% and 81% respectively over that period, according 2:57:50.910 --> 2:57:53.050 to the International Trade Center, a joint agency of the 2:57:53.150 --> 2:57:54.110 UN and the WTO. 2:57:54.590 --> 2:57:54.950 The U.S. 2:57:54.990 --> 2:57:57.070 And Russia grew their share in key markets, the data shows, 2:57:57.090 --> 2:58:00.540 while China also increased its exports. Analysts warned that fertilizer 2:58:00.580 --> 2:58:03.060 prices were rising to unsustainable levels for some of the 2:58:03.100 --> 2:58:06.879 world's poorest countries. New suppliers emerged and supply chain adjusted 2:58:06.940 --> 2:58:08.779 to a certain degree, but there has been a cost. 2:58:09.080 --> 2:58:11.850 For many developing countries, the challenge has shifted from finding 2:58:11.890 --> 2:58:15.290 supplies to being able to afford them, Pamela Koch-Hamilton, executive 2:58:15.310 --> 2:58:18.560 director of the ITC, told the Financial Times. And so 2:58:18.820 --> 2:58:21.680 what you're seeing here is basically a number of countries, 2:58:21.740 --> 2:58:25.850 including Nigeria, the United States, China, have kind of responded 2:58:25.890 --> 2:58:28.609 to this crisis by massively increasing the exports of like 2:58:28.670 --> 2:58:31.470 things that are ingredients to fertilizer that have been cut 2:58:31.590 --> 2:58:35.050 off by the strait. And that's allowed farms to keep 2:58:35.129 --> 2:58:38.130 going and the immediate beers to be sort of allayed. 2:58:38.170 --> 2:58:41.430 But it's come with a tremendous cost, right? And as 2:58:41.450 --> 2:58:44.290 a result, you are seeing import prices rise for urea 2:58:44.350 --> 2:58:48.770 alone amongst about 70% in Q2 of 2026. And in 2:58:48.820 --> 2:58:50.420 some parts of the world, like Brazil, the cost of 2:58:50.440 --> 2:58:54.500 importing sulfur has risen by almost 200%. What we're looking 2:58:54.550 --> 2:58:58.270 at here is basically we can keep food production at 2:58:58.330 --> 2:59:02.010 the levels that are necessary to sustain the population, which 2:59:02.070 --> 2:59:05.190 was something people were worried about. But cost of food 2:59:05.250 --> 2:59:07.490 is going to rise and keep rising massively. 2:59:07.750 --> 2:59:07.950 Right. 2:59:07.990 --> 2:59:11.110 And this is not just tied to like fertilizer. One 2:59:11.129 --> 2:59:13.629 of the other issues for in terms of ag prices 2:59:13.690 --> 2:59:15.609 right now is that diesel has jumped up by an 2:59:15.850 --> 2:59:17.629 absolutely insane amount. 2:59:17.709 --> 2:59:17.910 Right. 2:59:17.950 --> 2:59:20.610 Like diesel fuel has gotten way more expensive than other 2:59:20.670 --> 2:59:23.690 kinds of fuel. And diesel fuel is what big ag 2:59:23.730 --> 2:59:26.330 in the United States uses to fuel combines and tractors 2:59:26.350 --> 2:59:28.109 and everything else that you need to grow and harvest 2:59:28.150 --> 2:59:30.830 two of the largest commodities that our country produces, soybeans 2:59:30.900 --> 2:59:34.000 and corn. Per an article by the AP, American diesel 2:59:34.040 --> 2:59:36.560 prices are now 60% higher than they were before the U.S. 2:59:36.600 --> 2:59:39.039 and Israel launched their war against Iran in late February, 2:59:39.080 --> 2:59:42.220 when the national average was about $ 3. 76 per gallon, according 2:59:42.260 --> 2:59:45.099 to AAA. Prices quickly climbed as the cost of crude oil, 2:59:45.150 --> 2:59:48.400 the main ingredient in diesel, as well as gasoline, skyrocketed 2:59:48.440 --> 2:59:50.879 amid disruptions to tanker traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. 2:59:51.200 --> 2:59:53.180 Farms that are cash-strapped, they're the ones that are having 2:59:53.200 --> 2:59:55.019 to figure out what to cut to make this work, 2:59:55.100 --> 2:59:58.300 Paul Mitchell, an agriculture professor at the University of Wisconsin, said. 2:59:58.680 --> 3:00:02.470 There are a lot of farms facing that. And this is, again, 3:00:03.430 --> 3:00:06.670 there's not going to be food in the immediate future problem, 3:00:06.690 --> 3:00:09.250 but this is a food is going to continue getting 3:00:09.270 --> 3:00:11.320 more expensive. And you're also, this is going to contribute 3:00:11.360 --> 3:00:13.260 to a number of problems that like agriculture has been 3:00:13.280 --> 3:00:16.000 having for a while. Like when fuel costs increase, you 3:00:16.020 --> 3:00:19.779 start seeing maintenance deferred. When fertilizer gets more expensive, you 3:00:19.800 --> 3:00:23.279 start seeing like farms use less of particularly phosphates. And 3:00:23.300 --> 3:00:25.680 that kind of builds up like a level of debt that, 3:00:25.780 --> 3:00:27.930 you know, you can do that for a few seasons, 3:00:27.970 --> 3:00:31.190 but eventually it's going to start affecting yields, right? And 3:00:31.770 --> 3:00:34.490 that's all kind of colliding with the fact that as 3:00:34.510 --> 3:00:37.950 a result of climate change, particularly in Europe, you've had 3:00:37.990 --> 3:00:40.959 like massive amounts of crops like wheat, barley, maize, and oats, 3:00:41.200 --> 3:00:43.800 not just Europe, the United States too. You've seen huge 3:00:43.860 --> 3:00:47.320 crop losses that are kind of unprecedented in recent times 3:00:47.400 --> 3:00:49.640 almost as a result of climate change. So all these 3:00:49.680 --> 3:00:52.740 kinds of things are forming together into a perfect storm 3:00:52.820 --> 3:00:55.640 for what I think is going to be both increasing 3:00:56.020 --> 3:00:58.840 for the foreseeable future food costs in the United States, 3:00:58.940 --> 3:01:01.270 not really shortages in the United States, but there are 3:01:01.310 --> 3:01:03.689 going to be shortages increasingly in other parts of the world. 3:01:03.730 --> 3:01:07.500 This is not a gets better soon problem or collapses 3:01:07.980 --> 3:01:10.160 right away problem. This is a things are going to 3:01:10.220 --> 3:01:12.199 keep trickling worse and worse than you're going to see 3:01:12.280 --> 3:01:15.750 sudden food shocks kind of thing. So I have my 3:01:16.290 --> 3:01:19.269 eyes on this situation quite a lot. It does worry me. 3:01:19.650 --> 3:01:22.930 And it is all rooted back fundamentally, not just to 3:01:23.150 --> 3:01:24.990 our war of choice in Iran, but to climate change 3:01:25.030 --> 3:01:27.290 as well, although those are both very tied. 3:01:28.110 --> 3:01:28.390 I don't know. 3:01:28.530 --> 3:01:31.869 In less depressing and existentially frightening news, the Houthis shot 3:01:31.890 --> 3:01:35.000 down a Saudi F-15 today. There's a photo of the wreckage, 3:01:35.160 --> 3:01:37.240 and I don't think there's a lot of doubt that 3:01:37.400 --> 3:01:41.520 it's legitimate. In a statement, a Houthi military spokesman, Yahya Sari, 3:01:41.560 --> 3:01:43.800 said that the group shot down a Saudi F-15 fighter 3:01:43.820 --> 3:01:46.709 that was carrying out hostile operations in the airspace of 3:01:46.750 --> 3:01:48.890 Marib province and that the jet had been targeted by 3:01:48.910 --> 3:01:52.210 a locally made air-to-air missile. It doesn't look like, and 3:01:52.230 --> 3:01:55.190 I certainly haven't seen any convincing evidence that this had 3:01:55.270 --> 3:01:58.430 anything to do with the anthropic story James mentioned earlier. 3:01:58.650 --> 3:02:02.970 There's other kinds of locally made air-to-air missiles, right? We're 3:02:02.990 --> 3:02:05.320 not talking about that. We're probably talking about something that 3:02:05.330 --> 3:02:09.450 was rebuilt or repurposed, right? Yeah, they have a history 3:02:09.500 --> 3:02:12.080 of doing that. Yeah, they've been doing that for a while. 3:02:12.180 --> 3:02:15.900 It's not all AI. Don't just conflate these two stories 3:02:15.940 --> 3:02:17.520 in your head and think that they're evidence of the 3:02:17.560 --> 3:02:18.340 same thing, right? 3:02:18.620 --> 3:02:19.220 Yeah, agreed. 3:02:20.280 --> 3:02:22.910 It's also worth noting that the same day that the 3:02:22.930 --> 3:02:26.150 Houthis shot down that F-15, Saudi Arabia accused the Houthis 3:02:26.209 --> 3:02:29.250 of attempting a drone-based attack on Mecca, which they say 3:02:29.270 --> 3:02:32.910 was shot down by Saudi air defenses. Colonel Turki al-Malki, 3:02:33.320 --> 3:02:35.820 a spokesperson for the Saudi coalition in Yemen, called attacks 3:02:35.860 --> 3:02:39.080 on Mecca a red line. The Houthis were previously accused 3:02:39.120 --> 3:02:40.859 of having tried to strike the Holy City back in 3:02:40.900 --> 3:02:43.260 July of 2017, but claimed to have been aiming for 3:02:43.300 --> 3:02:46.039 King Fahd Air Base. And they deny these new allegations 3:02:46.080 --> 3:02:47.959 as well, saying there is no threat from Yemen to 3:02:47.980 --> 3:02:50.330 the holy sites. Our operations target its oil facilities and 3:02:50.360 --> 3:02:53.190 military facilities and are far from holy sites. I don't 3:02:53.209 --> 3:02:55.209 know that I think the Houthis really try. I can 3:02:55.290 --> 3:02:57.670 certainly believe something like hitting Mecca because it fucked up 3:02:57.830 --> 3:02:59.910 or something. But like, I don't really think they would 3:02:59.950 --> 3:03:02.960 go after just like random shit in Mecca. That doesn't 3:03:03.240 --> 3:03:05.380 seem like the Houthi move. I don't think it would 3:03:05.400 --> 3:03:06.039 really help. 3:03:05.879 --> 3:03:06.780 Them in their cause. 3:03:06.900 --> 3:03:08.400 But, you know, I guess anything's possible. 3:03:09.100 --> 3:03:12.560 Yeah, it does seem like a weird one. So I'm 3:03:12.580 --> 3:03:14.220 going to talk a little bit about the United States 3:03:14.540 --> 3:03:17.420 war of choice on Iran and generally what's happening in Iran, 3:03:17.450 --> 3:03:19.210 I guess. I want to begin with on the day 3:03:19.230 --> 3:03:22.190 that we're recording, which is Wednesday, the 16th of September. 3:03:22.209 --> 3:03:24.250 I guess I'll just add a little note here. If 3:03:24.270 --> 3:03:27.210 you see things that are auto translated, especially on eggs.com, 3:03:27.230 --> 3:03:30.789 the Everything website to say the 25th of September, that 3:03:30.830 --> 3:03:34.689 is because Grok has not grasped that a different calendar 3:03:34.770 --> 3:03:38.370 is used in Iran. and so the months won't line up. 3:03:38.750 --> 3:03:43.270 But what we're looking at here is a general strike 3:03:43.410 --> 3:03:46.630 that was called today on the 16th of September by 3:03:46.690 --> 3:03:50.609 an alliance of Kurdish political groups. They started talking about 3:03:50.650 --> 3:03:54.250 this a few days ago. It's a coalition that includes 3:03:54.350 --> 3:03:59.310 the KDPI, the PAK, PJAK, Habat, and two of the 3:03:59.350 --> 3:04:04.230 Kamala parties. The strikes... which are happening today, right? And 3:04:04.250 --> 3:04:07.930 there are pictures of like closed markets, closed stores, chiefly 3:04:07.970 --> 3:04:11.420 in Eastern Kurdistan, right? The Kurdish region of Iran. The 3:04:11.500 --> 3:04:14.860 strikes are in part a memorial to Jinnah Amini. Jinnah 3:04:14.879 --> 3:04:17.760 Amini is sometimes referred to by her Persian name, which 3:04:17.800 --> 3:04:20.600 is Masha, but her family called her Jinnah, right? She 3:04:20.620 --> 3:04:23.879 was Kurdish and that is important. Today, the 16th is 3:04:23.900 --> 3:04:27.320 the anniversary of her murder by Iranian security forces. On 3:04:27.340 --> 3:04:30.939 the day before the anniversary of her murder, Iranian security 3:04:31.080 --> 3:04:34.720 forces began flooding her hometown. I mean that in both 3:04:34.740 --> 3:04:37.840 a literal and metaphorical sense. They released water from a 3:04:37.940 --> 3:04:41.140 nearby dam to block access to the cemetery where she 3:04:41.200 --> 3:04:44.610 is buried and then blocked access themselves with security forces 3:04:45.209 --> 3:04:48.890 to the main entrance. Previously, her own family have not 3:04:48.930 --> 3:04:50.949 been able to visit her grave on the anniversary of 3:04:50.990 --> 3:04:54.940 her murder. Meanwhile, in Iran's prisons, some women prisoners have 3:04:54.959 --> 3:04:59.150 gone on hunger strike to mark this anniversary. If you're 3:04:59.170 --> 3:05:03.029 not familiar with Gina Amini, she was 22 years old 3:05:03.090 --> 3:05:06.130 when she was killed by Iranian morality police after having 3:05:06.170 --> 3:05:08.890 been detained for improperly wearing her hijab on a trip 3:05:08.910 --> 3:05:11.709 to Tehran. She was Kurdish, and we can see from 3:05:11.750 --> 3:05:14.129 other photos that she only wore hijab when it was 3:05:14.170 --> 3:05:17.030 something she felt like she had to do. We can 3:05:17.060 --> 3:05:20.100 see her sometimes at family weddings and things in traditional 3:05:20.140 --> 3:05:25.310 Kurdish dress. Her murder, of course, sparked a massive protest cycle, 3:05:25.690 --> 3:05:28.830 which took up the Jindjan Azali slogan, which is used 3:05:28.870 --> 3:05:32.310 by the Kurdish freedom movement. It means woman, life, freedom. 3:05:32.670 --> 3:05:37.379 The words woman and life are etymologically connected in Kurdish. Unfortunately, 3:05:37.420 --> 3:05:41.020 the slogan has kind of been divorced from the revolutionary context. 3:05:41.360 --> 3:05:41.700 Yep. 3:05:42.280 --> 3:05:44.580 And kind of commodified by a lot of people who 3:05:44.620 --> 3:05:47.490 either think it came from Iran or are ignorant of 3:05:47.570 --> 3:05:49.930 the woman's revolution in Kurdistan, perhaps. 3:05:50.640 --> 3:05:53.240 Also, I mean, there was that Hillary Clinton thing, right? 3:05:54.020 --> 3:05:56.840 Hillary Clinton, yeah. Hillary Clinton has bought the film rights 3:05:56.879 --> 3:05:59.620 to the book Daughters of the Kobani, which is about 3:06:00.250 --> 3:06:03.750 the YPGA. Luckily, we have not seen a Hillary Clinton 3:06:03.790 --> 3:06:04.470 take on that yet. 3:06:04.790 --> 3:06:05.350 We'll see. 3:06:05.990 --> 3:06:06.670 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 3:06:06.690 --> 3:06:09.690 There's still time. It'd be real good if she could 3:06:09.730 --> 3:06:11.949 do something useful for people in Kobani. 3:06:12.220 --> 3:06:14.539 Finally, another perfect role for Chris Pratt. 3:06:15.100 --> 3:06:15.360 God. 3:06:16.400 --> 3:06:21.410 What's that lady, Gina Caruso? Hopefully not. The protest cycle 3:06:21.530 --> 3:06:24.920 resulted in a massive outbreak of state violence, right? I 3:06:25.020 --> 3:06:29.440 have met several people who lost friends, family members, loved 3:06:29.540 --> 3:06:34.539 ones who were tortured or threatened with torture themselves, both 3:06:34.740 --> 3:06:37.860 at the border here and in the Darien Gap. This 3:06:38.470 --> 3:06:42.910 call for protests is brave because the Iranian state hasn't 3:06:42.970 --> 3:06:45.810 lost its capacity for violence against its own people, right? 3:06:46.190 --> 3:06:49.370 It has continued to execute people It has continued to 3:06:49.430 --> 3:06:52.820 rule through fear throughout the United States bombing campaign. The 3:06:52.860 --> 3:06:55.040 United States, if that was even a goal, has not 3:06:55.060 --> 3:06:58.410 been successful in doing that. This call for strikes comes 3:06:58.450 --> 3:07:01.919 at the same time as Bafal Talabani head of the PUK, 3:07:02.420 --> 3:07:05.480 one of the most influential parties in southern Kurdistan, met 3:07:05.540 --> 3:07:09.400 with Iran's foreign affairs minister in Tehran. This will likely 3:07:09.500 --> 3:07:14.530 signal an even harder time to come for anti-regime Iranian 3:07:14.650 --> 3:07:18.150 Kurdish groups. So the Rojelati groups, groups from eastern Kurdistan 3:07:18.170 --> 3:07:22.150 that we've spoken about, have camps in southern Kurdistan, in 3:07:22.190 --> 3:07:26.250 Iraqi Kurdistan, in the Kurdistan Autonomous Region, right? Last time 3:07:26.270 --> 3:07:29.789 the Taliban had a meeting with Iran, they moved into 3:07:29.830 --> 3:07:33.090 their camps. Since then, Iran has bombed those camps, including 3:07:33.140 --> 3:07:36.000 this week. It seems like this time they might have 3:07:36.060 --> 3:07:39.300 to move entirely out of Kurdistan. I heard there's a 3:07:39.320 --> 3:07:41.440 plan to send them to Albania, but I haven't been 3:07:41.459 --> 3:07:43.340 able to confirm that. The PUK is in a very 3:07:43.360 --> 3:07:47.260 difficult position here, right? It got absolutely battered by Iranian 3:07:47.650 --> 3:07:51.140 drone strikes. And the United States did very little to 3:07:51.180 --> 3:07:53.769 help it, right? Trump has his whole animus against Kurdish 3:07:53.790 --> 3:07:56.610 people that we've discussed at length before here. And so 3:07:56.650 --> 3:07:59.390 it's really in a very difficult position. We also found 3:07:59.430 --> 3:08:02.310 out this week that the United States consulate in Erbil 3:08:02.350 --> 3:08:06.360 sustained damage during one of the Iranian drone attacks. This 3:08:06.500 --> 3:08:09.400 is part of a more broad realisation of the damage 3:08:09.440 --> 3:08:12.500 done to US bases and assets as the DoD's Inspector 3:08:12.560 --> 3:08:16.530 General report was released this week. We also learned that, quote, 3:08:16.930 --> 3:08:21.750 The Department of War estimated the cost of Operation... Fuck, 3:08:21.770 --> 3:08:22.390 what do they call it? 3:08:22.670 --> 3:08:22.920 Epic. 3:08:23.270 --> 3:08:24.880 It's not Epic Fail, but that's what it is in 3:08:24.900 --> 3:08:25.619 my head. Enduring Freedom? 3:08:25.640 --> 3:08:26.060 Epic Freedom? 3:08:26.080 --> 3:08:28.119 No, it's not. Fury! 3:08:28.240 --> 3:08:28.920 Epic Fury! 3:08:29.360 --> 3:08:32.199 Epic Fury, that's the one. Operation Epic Fury. 3:08:32.220 --> 3:08:33.380 Video game ass war. 3:08:34.020 --> 3:08:37.090 Yeah. Operation Epic Fury to be $ 33. 4 billion as of 3:08:37.129 --> 3:08:43.060 June 29th. And that From February 28th to June 30th, 3:08:43.140 --> 3:08:46.470 seven US service members were killed in action and seven 3:08:46.510 --> 3:08:50.130 were killed in non-hostile events during OEF combat operations. During 3:08:50.150 --> 3:08:54.690 that same period, 417 service members were wounded in action. 3:08:55.590 --> 3:08:58.930 As we commented, things have not been going great for 3:08:58.950 --> 3:09:02.119 the Saudi-backed government of Yemen. They lost the port city 3:09:02.140 --> 3:09:06.800 of Moher and Mayun, an island in the Bab al-Mandab Strait. 3:09:07.330 --> 3:09:09.470 This is obviously an issue, as Robert spoke about, right, 3:09:09.530 --> 3:09:12.390 because it will continue to see shipping harassed and will 3:09:12.410 --> 3:09:16.240 further lock down global trade. According to the United Nations, 3:09:16.240 --> 3:09:20.500 80,000 people have already been displaced by the sort of 3:09:21.220 --> 3:09:26.039 resumption of full-scale hostilities in Yemen. Talking of Yemen, this 3:09:26.080 --> 3:09:30.080 week we found out via Anthropic's Threat Intelligence report that 3:09:30.200 --> 3:09:34.800 the Houthis had been talking to Claude, Specifically, they'd been 3:09:34.840 --> 3:09:39.060 talking to Claude about the development of ballistic missiles. Their 3:09:39.100 --> 3:09:42.060 report identifies them as a group in northern Yemen. They 3:09:42.100 --> 3:09:44.760 tried to develop, quote, a guided rocket that used a 3:09:44.820 --> 3:09:48.860 commodity phone class flight computer with final phase homing guidance, 3:09:49.620 --> 3:09:52.450 as well as a multi-stage ballistic missile with a stated 3:09:52.570 --> 3:09:57.970 goal range above 2,000 kilometers and a multi-variant missile referred 3:09:58.010 --> 3:10:02.810 to as the R-2000 that included a hypersonic glide vehicle variant. 3:10:03.629 --> 3:10:06.670 Anthropic said our safeguard blocked many of their requests, but 3:10:06.720 --> 3:10:08.619 not all of them. The actors used a variety of 3:10:08.660 --> 3:10:11.840 tactics to evade our safeguards, including hiding their goals and 3:10:11.860 --> 3:10:14.420 the products the software was meant for. And they split 3:10:14.459 --> 3:10:17.740 their work across multiple sessions. So no single session revealed 3:10:17.760 --> 3:10:21.180 their full intent. This is fairly funny, right? Like they 3:10:21.200 --> 3:10:22.820 were like on there being like, what if I wanted 3:10:22.860 --> 3:10:26.629 to build a hypersonic glide food delivery vehicle for better 3:10:26.650 --> 3:10:30.870 door dashing? And off Claude went. They know that the 3:10:30.910 --> 3:10:32.869 group test fired a rocket and they know that it 3:10:33.010 --> 3:10:35.599 failed because a few hours after the test fire, they 3:10:35.660 --> 3:10:38.640 log back into Claude to ask why it had failed. 3:10:39.190 --> 3:10:39.590 Oh, dear. 3:10:40.110 --> 3:10:40.670 That's fun. 3:10:40.910 --> 3:10:43.830 That is very funny. It also doesn't point to surface-to-air missiles. 3:10:44.490 --> 3:10:46.940 This report is bonkers. I think we will do a 3:10:46.950 --> 3:10:50.380 whole episode on it. We see Chinese weapons companies pretending 3:10:50.420 --> 3:10:53.259 to be US firms trying to develop a whole pitch 3:10:53.320 --> 3:10:59.510 deck for an anti-torpedo system, including asking for a pitch 3:10:59.530 --> 3:11:02.890 deck slide and technical documents. We also see Russia trying 3:11:02.910 --> 3:11:05.949 to use it to build software from autonomous drone storm 3:11:06.230 --> 3:11:10.129 that they trained on combat footage. to avoid Russian systems 3:11:10.350 --> 3:11:14.450 and to geolocate and attack Ukrainian drone operators. This is 3:11:15.090 --> 3:11:17.740 the future that we live in now. 3:11:18.720 --> 3:11:19.740 That's super concerning. 3:11:20.720 --> 3:11:23.160 Yeah, Robert and I will do an episode on this 3:11:23.180 --> 3:11:25.459 because Robert and I have both spoken to people in 3:11:25.480 --> 3:11:29.000 Myanmar at great lengths who are attempting to develop weapon 3:11:29.040 --> 3:11:33.960 systems outside of the world of the military-industrial complex, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 3:11:34.040 --> 3:11:36.580 But yeah, this is pretty scary shit. 3:11:37.300 --> 3:11:40.939 There's been a lot of AI news and a frenzy 3:11:40.959 --> 3:11:44.390 around AI in the news this past week, especially in 3:11:44.410 --> 3:11:47.850 the wake of a high-profile employee resignation at Anthropic, citing 3:11:48.330 --> 3:11:53.230 safety alignment concerns, which also follows the widely publicized Hugging 3:11:53.270 --> 3:11:56.910 Face incident hack by OpenAI agents. Just this past week, 3:11:57.550 --> 3:12:02.560 multiple tech CEOs, including Dario Amadei, Sam Altman, and Elon Musk, 3:12:02.600 --> 3:12:06.859 have joined in calling for a regulatory quote-unquote slowdown of 3:12:06.879 --> 3:12:12.539 AI development. But not all tech CEOs agree on this. Others, 3:12:12.660 --> 3:12:17.129 like Palantir's Alex Karp and Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, as 3:12:17.170 --> 3:12:20.230 well as the NVIDIA CEO, have called for the opposite. 3:12:20.790 --> 3:12:24.369 Zuckerberg has said to accelerate rather than slow down AI development, 3:12:24.450 --> 3:12:27.590 as his own AI model muse has struggled to catch 3:12:27.720 --> 3:12:30.220 up to where Anthropic and OpenAI are at. 3:12:31.080 --> 3:12:32.640 Earlier this week, Alex. 3:12:32.459 --> 3:12:36.250 Karp told CNBC, we can't pause AI development because of 3:12:36.310 --> 3:12:39.030 the threat of China and because AI will be a 3:12:39.050 --> 3:12:43.330 quote-unquote bonanza for the US economy. But you see this 3:12:43.410 --> 3:12:45.570 China thing a lot as one of the main reasons 3:12:46.070 --> 3:12:49.870 why we cannot enforce a quote-unquote slowdown or a pause 3:12:49.930 --> 3:12:52.870 on development is because then China could get ahead. This 3:12:52.930 --> 3:12:54.370 is one of the justifications that people in the Trump 3:12:54.390 --> 3:12:58.730 administration have been saying to oppose efforts for a regulatory slowdown. 3:12:59.790 --> 3:13:02.630 Trump has very loudly been against this the past few days, 3:13:03.290 --> 3:13:07.670 truthing that the only, quote, controls or guardrails AI needs 3:13:07.790 --> 3:13:11.890 is a strong and smart, high IQ president, and has 3:13:12.190 --> 3:13:15.709 compared this, quote unquote, AI hoax to the global warming hoax. 3:13:16.770 --> 3:13:19.300 House Speaker Mike Johnson has repeatedly shut down calls this 3:13:19.379 --> 3:13:21.539 week for Congress to take action and regulate AI. 3:13:22.420 --> 3:13:23.740 They can self-police. 3:13:23.820 --> 3:13:26.160 They can self-regulate. They don't need the government to tell 3:13:26.200 --> 3:13:26.980 them to slow it down. 3:13:27.020 --> 3:13:28.140 If they want to slow it down, they should. 3:13:28.420 --> 3:13:33.340 But we cannot have a moratorium on the development of A.I. 3:13:34.180 --> 3:13:36.360 because then we will lose our edge to China. And 3:13:36.379 --> 3:13:39.600 that has serious national security implications for every American family. 3:13:40.360 --> 3:13:44.539 A few weeks ago, Bernie Sanders introduced legislation to ban 3:13:44.560 --> 3:13:50.070 the development and deployment of quote-unquote super-intelligent A.I., with penalties 3:13:50.180 --> 3:13:52.709 similar to those for the unlawful development. 3:13:52.350 --> 3:13:53.210 Of nuclear weapons. 3:13:53.870 --> 3:13:58.970 But this legislation also would temporarily pause advanced AI development 3:13:59.030 --> 3:14:02.730 until a federal regulatory body can establish safety guidelines. Now, 3:14:02.810 --> 3:14:05.450 the tech CEOs are against this idea for multiple reasons. One, 3:14:05.510 --> 3:14:07.230 it would hurt their bottom line. They don't actually want 3:14:07.430 --> 3:14:10.800 a pause. They want this quote-unquote slowdown. Also, they don't 3:14:10.830 --> 3:14:13.080 want to face 20 years in jail for developing this 3:14:13.160 --> 3:14:17.310 extremely dangerous technology, which they are already doing. In an 3:14:17.370 --> 3:14:19.630 episode next week, I'll go into some more detail about 3:14:19.670 --> 3:14:24.790 what this proposed quote-unquote slowdown actually amounts to. It's basically 3:14:24.870 --> 3:14:27.670 self-regulating while also trying to get the government to weaken 3:14:27.790 --> 3:14:32.690 antitrust laws to strengthen OpenAI and Anthropic's monopoly over this 3:14:32.730 --> 3:14:35.230 whole industry, right? Because obviously they have their own incentives 3:14:35.910 --> 3:14:39.110 when they're calling for regulation. This regulation that they're calling 3:14:39.150 --> 3:14:41.810 for is going to be friendly to them as the 3:14:41.890 --> 3:14:45.070 big titans in the industry. People on both the right 3:14:45.110 --> 3:14:48.120 and the left have accused OpenAI and Anthropic of trying 3:14:48.160 --> 3:14:51.379 to employ a form of regulatory capture. This is something 3:14:51.400 --> 3:14:54.460 that Linda Kahn has addressed, the former FTC chair, who 3:14:54.500 --> 3:14:59.640 posted a statement on Sunday explaining that even without new regulation, 3:14:59.840 --> 3:15:02.480 the government already has the authority to charge companies and 3:15:02.520 --> 3:15:06.560 their CEOs for, quote, creating and releasing dangerous, unvetted, or 3:15:06.600 --> 3:15:10.300 defective products. We can and must pursue any new efforts 3:15:10.720 --> 3:15:12.860 alongside enforcing existing laws. 3:15:13.900 --> 3:15:14.480 Unquote. 3:15:15.129 --> 3:15:16.550 So like I said, I'll go into more detail about 3:15:16.570 --> 3:15:20.160 this later next week in its own episode. But this 3:15:20.180 --> 3:15:21.780 is something that I'm sure you're going to hear a 3:15:21.959 --> 3:15:25.099 lot about these next few weeks leading into the midterms 3:15:25.640 --> 3:15:27.480 as the White House and Congress will start meeting with 3:15:27.520 --> 3:15:31.810 these tech CEOs about regulation and other even local municipalities 3:15:31.890 --> 3:15:34.390 are planning to do the same, including here in New 3:15:34.410 --> 3:15:37.230 York City. Let's go on an ad break and then 3:15:37.690 --> 3:15:41.190 have two more little news stories before we close. 3:15:53.530 --> 3:15:54.430 We are back. 3:15:55.790 --> 3:16:01.270 So last week, the Republicans held their first ever midterm convention. 3:16:01.420 --> 3:16:06.240 And unfortunately, none of us could attend. Or rather, fortunately, 3:16:06.280 --> 3:16:08.360 none of us could attend. We saved a little bit 3:16:08.379 --> 3:16:11.740 of our sanity. Senator John Fetterman sent in a video 3:16:11.780 --> 3:16:17.140 message to the midterm RNC. They showed Hassan Piker's thirst trap. 3:16:16.959 --> 3:16:18.820 On the Jumbotron. Oh, yeah. 3:16:20.490 --> 3:16:24.689 And during Trump's speech, the president promised to give every U.S. 3:16:24.770 --> 3:16:30.120 citizen adult $ 5, 000 if the Republicans win the midterms. 3:16:30.640 --> 3:16:34.100 If the Republicans win the House of Representatives and the 3:16:34.200 --> 3:16:35.280 United States Senate. 3:16:35.780 --> 3:16:41.640 Both of them, because of our economic, tremendous. 3:16:41.120 --> 3:16:44.990 Economic success, like in history, we've never had anything like 3:16:45.030 --> 3:16:50.820 what's happening. But because of our tremendous strength and success, economically, 3:16:51.879 --> 3:16:55.400 I will issue a dividend to every adult citizen in 3:16:55.420 --> 3:17:03.800 the United States of America for $ 5, 000. 3:17:01.890 --> 3:17:04.789 I'm definitely filing this on. How is this legal? Is 3:17:04.810 --> 3:17:06.930 this not just bribing the population? 3:17:06.950 --> 3:17:07.950 Oh, yeah. 3:17:08.430 --> 3:17:11.700 I mean, like Trump knows that it's literally impossible for 3:17:11.720 --> 3:17:14.720 the Republicans to hold on to the House or the Senate. 3:17:14.740 --> 3:17:18.379 So this will never actually happen. But still, it's crazy. 3:17:18.440 --> 3:17:21.750 And a few days later, House Speaker Mike Johnson told reporters, quote, 3:17:22.310 --> 3:17:24.690 If you want more money in your pockets, you got 3:17:24.709 --> 3:17:26.330 to keep Republicans in charge. 3:17:27.980 --> 3:17:30.380 It would be really funny if the Democrats won both 3:17:30.420 --> 3:17:33.680 houses and then pushed through a $ 5, 000 bribe to the 3:17:33.940 --> 3:17:35.480 American people. 3:17:35.720 --> 3:17:37.879 Biden bucks, baby. Just nuke the economy. 3:17:37.940 --> 3:17:41.150 Fucking a trillion and a half dollars in added spending. 3:17:41.629 --> 3:17:42.610 Crazy bullshit. 3:17:42.629 --> 3:17:43.710 Just see what happens. 3:17:44.170 --> 3:17:47.190 Another really interesting tidbit about this is that according to 3:17:47.209 --> 3:17:50.850 an Ipsos poll from September 14th, the public seems largely 3:17:50.970 --> 3:17:53.699 negatively polarized against a free $ 5, 000 bribe. 3:17:55.480 --> 3:17:59.500 Yeah because we know it's a scam because it's obvious 3:17:59.640 --> 3:18:01.240 because he's a liar. 3:18:00.780 --> 3:18:03.260 It is a remarkable place to have got when the 3:18:03.300 --> 3:18:06.600 economy is really shit when people are struggling to be 3:18:06.660 --> 3:18:08.880 polling badly of giving people free money. 3:18:08.680 --> 3:18:12.400 Because he's our lyingest lying ass president it's just like. 3:18:12.260 --> 3:18:17.320 Loan shark vibes yeah 63 percent of respondents said they 3:18:17.379 --> 3:18:21.110 oppose the $ 5, 000 dividend check from Trump. 3:18:21.350 --> 3:18:23.570 Only 17% said they support it. 3:18:23.670 --> 3:18:24.250 My God. 3:18:24.370 --> 3:18:25.410 Pretty wild. 3:18:26.010 --> 3:18:27.590 You got to be so bad at your job to 3:18:27.650 --> 3:18:35.190 get Americans to hate money. $ 10. 3:18:33.670 --> 3:18:35.230 Gasoline, price of eggs. 3:18:35.290 --> 3:18:37.910 They're trying to give away free puppies and people being like, no, 3:18:37.930 --> 3:18:39.980 there's something wrong with them. 3:18:41.770 --> 3:18:43.859 Now, there is one other thing that happened at the 3:18:43.900 --> 3:18:47.280 midterm convention, which It's something I've been keeping an eye 3:18:47.400 --> 3:18:50.730 on because this has been a kind of pet issue 3:18:50.790 --> 3:18:53.750 of the gross racist online right for years, and they're 3:18:53.890 --> 3:18:57.910 pushing it more right now. At the midterm convention, DHS 3:18:57.930 --> 3:19:02.160 Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen told right-wing podcaster Benny Johnson that 3:19:02.170 --> 3:19:07.080 Ilhan Omar married her brother, echoing the years-old conspiracy theory 3:19:07.560 --> 3:19:13.830 which Omar has called absurd and offensive. Markway-Mullen added, quote, 3:19:14.209 --> 3:19:17.920 something is going to happen. We know that she married 3:19:17.950 --> 3:19:20.460 her brother to try to bring him into the United States. 3:19:20.840 --> 3:19:23.740 There may be more to this, the whole family migration, 3:19:24.020 --> 3:19:26.660 and possibly some illegal activity for them to come to 3:19:26.680 --> 3:19:29.220 the United States to begin with. But all of this 3:19:29.500 --> 3:19:31.560 we're investigating, unquote. 3:19:31.900 --> 3:19:36.119 She's been a citizen for mad long, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, 3:19:36.180 --> 3:19:37.369 what could you even.... 3:19:39.120 --> 3:19:42.800 The conspiracy theory goes that she married someone to help 3:19:42.840 --> 3:19:44.560 bring them into the country before splitting. 3:19:45.160 --> 3:19:45.840 Like fraud. 3:19:45.959 --> 3:19:48.500 I'm fairly sure the form that you fill out for 3:19:48.540 --> 3:19:52.840 that has a question about that. I'm absolutely certain. Also, 3:19:52.860 --> 3:19:58.189 you can sponsor family members on a form I-130. If 3:19:58.550 --> 3:20:00.230 you're a US citizen, you don't have to marry them. 3:20:01.170 --> 3:20:03.010 A few weeks ago, Trump did.... 3:20:04.300 --> 3:20:08.780 Hint towards this by posting an article on Truth Social 3:20:08.980 --> 3:20:11.520 with a headline claiming that Omar was the subject of 3:20:11.550 --> 3:20:17.850 ICE quote-unquote enforcement proceedings, with this article detailing that ICE 3:20:17.910 --> 3:20:21.290 denied a FOIA request for documents related to the immigration 3:20:21.310 --> 3:20:27.369 fraud allegations against Omar, citing an ongoing investigation. Earlier this week, 3:20:27.450 --> 3:20:30.990 after the convention, both Tom Homan and H.E. Todd Blanche 3:20:31.050 --> 3:20:35.810 have also referenced this quote-unquote ongoing criminal investigation. 3:20:36.920 --> 3:20:39.439 So I guess to wrap up, I want to talk 3:20:39.459 --> 3:20:42.480 about a couple more DHS OIG reports that dropped this week. 3:20:43.420 --> 3:20:47.340 One was of the Chrome immigration facility in Georgia. What 3:20:47.379 --> 3:20:50.450 we saw was what we've seen there before, right? Overcrowding, 3:20:50.850 --> 3:20:56.890 disgusting conditions, absolutely atrocious food safety precautions, like literally just 3:20:56.910 --> 3:21:01.930 like ambient temperature stacked boxes of frozen chicken. Just vibing, 3:21:02.150 --> 3:21:04.950 which parallels what I have heard from many, many, many 3:21:04.990 --> 3:21:07.210 people who have been in immigration detention, which is that 3:21:07.250 --> 3:21:10.280 food is dangerously bad, not just like not tastes good, 3:21:10.300 --> 3:21:13.220 like dangerous for human consumption. The one I want to 3:21:13.260 --> 3:21:18.119 focus on is the OIG report. It's called, quote, unannounced 3:21:18.160 --> 3:21:23.860 inspection of ISIS Florida soft sided facility. Brackets, quote, alligator Alcatraz, unquote. 3:21:24.440 --> 3:21:27.860 They dropped this report on Friday, September the 11th, as 3:21:27.959 --> 3:21:29.720 one does when one wants to report to get loads 3:21:29.760 --> 3:21:33.879 of attention and coverage. The report found that employees had 3:21:34.140 --> 3:21:38.510 no idea what the standards for detainees were, let alone 3:21:38.650 --> 3:21:42.590 obeying them. Every housing unit was overcrowded, sometimes three times 3:21:42.709 --> 3:21:44.670 more than it should be in order to achieve the 3:21:44.670 --> 3:21:48.980 75 feet per square person standard. detainees were deprived of 3:21:49.180 --> 3:21:52.840 any stimulating leisure time and not given access to legal materials. 3:21:53.360 --> 3:21:56.320 Perhaps the most disgusting find is the use of these 3:21:56.459 --> 3:22:03.410 tiny cages. Quote, between July 17th, 2025 and January 18th, 2026, FSFF, 3:22:03.470 --> 3:22:07.490 that's Soft Sided Facility, Florida, right, confined 79 detainees in 3:22:07.570 --> 3:22:11.330 small metal enclosures, each offering about 18 square feet of 3:22:11.530 --> 3:22:14.879 floor space for periods ranging from several minutes to nearly 3:22:14.930 --> 3:22:19.310 two hours. a practice unlike any OIG team has observed 3:22:19.370 --> 3:22:22.629 in ICE facilities. The use of such restrictive spaces is 3:22:22.730 --> 3:22:26.129 highly unconventional and does not align with standards for humane treatment. 3:22:26.209 --> 3:22:29.110 That's one way of saying it. These are cages that 3:22:29.150 --> 3:22:31.109 are 4 feet 3 inches by 4 feet 3 inches 3:22:31.150 --> 3:22:34.000 by 7 feet 9 inches, and the staff called them 3:22:34.379 --> 3:22:35.599 calming areas. 3:22:35.940 --> 3:22:38.140 You have to see the pictures of these. You should 3:22:38.160 --> 3:22:40.200 put on yourself to look up, if you haven't already, 3:22:40.300 --> 3:22:42.500 look up pictures of these tiny cages. 3:22:43.100 --> 3:22:46.160 They're reminiscent of shit I saw in Saxon housing. outside 3:22:46.180 --> 3:22:48.869 of Berlin. Like, that's not an exaggeration. 3:22:48.990 --> 3:22:52.010 They sell bigger dog crates for training your dog than 3:22:52.050 --> 3:22:53.890 these plumbing areas. 3:22:54.150 --> 3:22:56.290 Yeah, like you couldn't lie down. 3:22:56.530 --> 3:22:58.550 And it's a metal crate in Florida. 3:22:59.310 --> 3:23:01.730 It's a cage, yeah. Some of them are outside. Yeah, 3:23:01.950 --> 3:23:04.480 exposed to the sun. Yeah, I think that the one 3:23:04.510 --> 3:23:06.300 I saw that was outside was under a little roof 3:23:06.440 --> 3:23:10.580 area that'd still be unbearably hot, right? They also state 3:23:10.640 --> 3:23:12.600 that detainees told us they did not have access to 3:23:12.660 --> 3:23:15.199 clean drinking water and could not clean their plastic cups. 3:23:15.680 --> 3:23:19.050 Potentially contaminated drinking water from unclean cups could negatively impact 3:23:19.070 --> 3:23:22.930 detainee health, something I have also heard myself from detainees. 3:23:23.410 --> 3:23:26.810 They were allowed to shower three times a week. They 3:23:26.830 --> 3:23:30.310 were only allowed toothpaste when staff members applied it to 3:23:30.330 --> 3:23:35.740 their issued toothbrush. This is a facility designed to dehumanize people, right? 3:23:36.300 --> 3:23:39.240 I have been to prison camps all over the world 3:23:39.260 --> 3:23:44.379 and no longer prison camps from brutal dictatorial regimes. That 3:23:44.420 --> 3:23:47.420 is what this is. This facility won't last long because 3:23:47.459 --> 3:23:50.340 it's already closed. But one day this shit will be 3:23:50.379 --> 3:23:54.080 a museum where we send our children to understand the 3:23:54.120 --> 3:23:56.750 fucked up shit that we did to people. And they 3:23:56.770 --> 3:24:00.930 will feel a sense of shame. But Florida does not. Indeed, 3:24:01.190 --> 3:24:05.270 it is not something that seems to concern DHS because, quote, 3:24:05.470 --> 3:24:08.650 DHS stated it did not have a contract with Florida 3:24:08.690 --> 3:24:13.840 to manage the detention space at FSSF. DHS indicated Florida 3:24:13.860 --> 3:24:18.280 detained illegal aliens at FSSF pursuant to its delegated authority 3:24:18.379 --> 3:24:21.850 under Section 287G of the Immigration Nationality Act, and therefore 3:24:21.870 --> 3:24:25.610 the state maintains authority of day-to-day operations at the facility, 3:24:26.310 --> 3:24:30.029 and that, quote, DHS stated, a Section 287G agreement does 3:24:30.090 --> 3:24:32.770 not give the federal government authority over the physical operation 3:24:32.810 --> 3:24:36.400 to any facility. Whereas the state employees accept to the 3:24:36.430 --> 3:24:39.259 extent in which they are performing the function of immigration officer. 3:24:40.120 --> 3:24:43.439 This is a crazy argument, right? Like there are ICE 3:24:43.600 --> 3:24:48.300 logos all over this facility. These people are in immigration 3:24:48.560 --> 3:24:53.360 detention for a federal reason. misdemeanor in some cases for 3:24:53.400 --> 3:24:57.220 other cases just for not compliance with with immigration regulations 3:24:57.320 --> 3:24:59.840 right maybe some have committed crimes or misdemeanors in florida 3:24:59.860 --> 3:25:01.800 but they are not being detained by a court in 3:25:01.840 --> 3:25:05.250 florida for an offense in florida florida is a contractor 3:25:05.310 --> 3:25:08.770 here just like geo group is a contractor. 3:25:08.490 --> 3:25:11.629 How are they not performing the function of an immigration officer. 3:25:11.570 --> 3:25:14.390 They're performing the function of a prison guard right so 3:25:14.410 --> 3:25:17.769 like someone like a geo group yeah prison guard, right? 3:25:18.500 --> 3:25:22.580 But there are ICE immigration officers there. There absolutely are, right? 3:25:23.040 --> 3:25:25.140 What's worrying about this is, yeah, this facility is closed, 3:25:25.220 --> 3:25:28.480 but the Baker facility, for example, is run under 287G. 3:25:29.040 --> 3:25:33.010 There are other people detained under 287G. And the line 3:25:33.050 --> 3:25:36.670 that DHS is taking is that there is no minimum 3:25:37.390 --> 3:25:40.129 other than that which the state decides to enforce in 3:25:40.170 --> 3:25:43.230 terms of the quality of these people's food, the way 3:25:43.250 --> 3:25:46.789 they can be mistreated the way they can be tortured. 3:25:47.530 --> 3:25:50.820 Like this is really alarming. And that is what I 3:25:50.860 --> 3:25:52.859 want people to take home from this. Like the conditions 3:25:52.879 --> 3:25:55.780 were bad and DHS is asserting that there's nothing they 3:25:55.820 --> 3:25:57.879 can do about it. Like it's one of these pie 3:25:57.900 --> 3:26:01.480 in the sky legal arguments that the Trump administration has 3:26:01.820 --> 3:26:05.260 increasingly been making and sometimes sticks a landing on. And 3:26:05.300 --> 3:26:06.039 this one is wild. 3:26:06.459 --> 3:26:09.200 There is no minimum is such a chilling phrase. 3:26:09.870 --> 3:26:11.990 Yeah, like I don't think it's possible to overstate how 3:26:12.070 --> 3:26:16.740 fucked this is. Immigration detention under Biden was fucking inhumane. 3:26:17.040 --> 3:26:19.490 Like I spoke to hundreds, I've interviewed someone on this 3:26:19.520 --> 3:26:22.390 show who had just left immigration detention and it was 3:26:22.450 --> 3:26:25.570 horrific then, right? They call it the icebox because they 3:26:25.590 --> 3:26:29.530 keep that place super cold. And it is something that 3:26:29.550 --> 3:26:34.119 I didn't, well, I mean, I'm constantly, I've underestimated how 3:26:34.220 --> 3:26:36.700 terrible shit could be in this country, but it has 3:26:36.720 --> 3:26:39.400 got worse and that should be a national shame. 3:26:40.629 --> 3:26:44.250 Well, that is all of our stories for this edition 3:26:44.420 --> 3:26:45.980 of Executive Disorder. 3:26:46.530 --> 3:26:46.750 Yes. 3:26:47.720 --> 3:26:50.680 Kim Kelly, where can people find more of your work 3:26:51.700 --> 3:26:52.959 anywhere online. 3:26:52.620 --> 3:26:54.540 Or maybe in a flesh space? 3:26:54.560 --> 3:26:54.840 I don't know. 3:26:55.379 --> 3:26:56.400 At a bookstore, perhaps. 3:26:56.680 --> 3:26:58.259 Oh, yeah. I have some books. 3:26:58.280 --> 3:26:59.020 Flesh Space. 3:26:59.100 --> 3:27:00.150 They're at Flesh Space. 3:27:00.170 --> 3:27:03.330 Give me a break, okay? Absolutely not. 3:27:03.350 --> 3:27:06.030 I don't know. Like, we're all internet people. 3:27:06.050 --> 3:27:08.170 I've been reading these anthropic reports all day. It's the 3:27:08.209 --> 3:27:09.390 only way I can think now. 3:27:09.410 --> 3:27:11.630 Back to the Matrix. 3:27:12.510 --> 3:27:12.910 Oh, my God. 3:27:13.030 --> 3:27:16.190 But if you do like old school analog books... I 3:27:16.230 --> 3:27:18.930 have created some of those. You can find Fight Like 3:27:18.950 --> 3:27:21.910 Hell and Fight to Win, the kids' version of my 3:27:21.950 --> 3:27:25.400 radical labor history. It is out there. The paperback is 3:27:25.440 --> 3:27:28.960 so much cheaper. Buy it for some kids. Radicalism. I'm freelance, 3:27:29.020 --> 3:27:32.420 so I am a labor journalism mercenary. You can find 3:27:32.440 --> 3:27:36.019 me all over the place. And as of fairly recently, 3:27:36.100 --> 3:27:39.610 sometimes I pop up here in the cool zone. So, yeah, 3:27:40.670 --> 3:27:42.810 you can Google me and we can argue about tattoos 3:27:43.110 --> 3:27:47.010 on Blue Sky or Instagram. And, uh, Also, I just 3:27:47.050 --> 3:27:49.129 wanted to say there was a little update from Robert 3:27:49.170 --> 3:27:50.530 Kraft and Gillette and all that. 3:27:50.550 --> 3:27:51.050 Oh, cool. 3:27:51.250 --> 3:27:54.660 After Macklemore had posted that he was going to donate 3:27:54.670 --> 3:28:00.040 a million dollars to these Palestinian organizations, Robert Kraft posted, actually, 3:28:00.459 --> 3:28:03.160 before that happened, I talked to Ed and we decided 3:28:03.180 --> 3:28:06.600 we're both going to donate $ 2 million. Also, I've been 3:28:06.780 --> 3:28:11.570 really cool to Palestinians. So, meh. So, internet bullying works 3:28:11.850 --> 3:28:15.789 is my final sort of takeaway for you guys. Yeah. 3:28:16.550 --> 3:28:16.750 Yeah. 3:28:17.550 --> 3:28:20.750 If you want to email us about Ed Sheeran's tattoos, don't. 3:28:20.770 --> 3:28:25.150 Send them to me. Yeah, you can find Kim at 3:28:25.350 --> 3:28:28.530 I Write OK on social media platforms everywhere. God damn it. 3:28:28.670 --> 3:28:29.530 Oh, no! 3:28:31.140 --> 3:28:34.000 But if you would like to email us about a 3:28:34.020 --> 3:28:38.000 story tip, you can do so. It is coolzontips at proton.me. 3:28:39.280 --> 3:28:40.180 We reported the news. 3:28:41.060 --> 3:28:44.320 I think the newsroom guy got like divorced or he's 3:28:44.340 --> 3:28:46.320 like broke up with his like girlfriend. He did. 3:28:46.360 --> 3:28:48.500 He and Amanda Seyfried are getting divorced. 3:28:49.620 --> 3:28:52.879 And the rumor is it's because she's actually into women. 3:28:52.900 --> 3:28:54.539 So good for her. 3:28:55.340 --> 3:28:56.300 So pour one out. 3:28:56.520 --> 3:28:59.340 Honey. Good for her. 3:28:59.690 --> 3:29:00.550 Godspeed. 3:29:02.150 --> 3:29:02.910 We reported the news. 3:29:08.580 --> 3:29:11.699 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:29:11.760 --> 3:29:13.599 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:29:14.490 --> 3:29:16.910 It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. 3:29:17.150 --> 3:29:21.490 For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, 3:29:21.930 --> 3:29:24.730 or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:29:25.110 --> 3:29:27.910 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find 3:29:27.970 --> 3:29:30.900 sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. 3:29:31.400 --> 3:29:32.080 Thanks for listening.