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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to the All Ball Podcast. You boy, Doug Gottlieb. Here,

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Speaker 1: My man Steve Hawkins is gonna join us. A long

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Speaker 1: time twenty years. He was a coach seventeen years, the

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Speaker 1: head coach at Western Michigan. UM was relieved of his

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Speaker 1: duties in March, actually during or right before quarantine. Uh,

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Speaker 1: He's gonna join us kind of reflect on his time

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Speaker 1: getting to know the late great John Wooden and what

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Speaker 1: what his run was like at Western Michigan. I want

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Speaker 1: to give a couple of thoughts though on the last

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Speaker 1: Last dance. First thing is this, can we stop with

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Speaker 1: the Scottie Pippen was made to look bad? Scottie Pippen

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Speaker 1: was actually, I think made to look good. He was

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Speaker 1: made to look like his contract was terrible. He was

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Speaker 1: made to look like, uh, he was a warrior at

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Speaker 1: the end when they won the title and he was

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Speaker 1: playing with a bad back, and that he was the

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Speaker 1: one who had the class class to say. Jerry, Uh,

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Speaker 1: Jerry Krauss was the great a general manager of all time.

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Speaker 1: So those parts made him look good. Some of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, his own words were you know, did that.

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Speaker 1: But the only negative parts were real stories. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: He was the guy who was considered soft. He did

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Speaker 1: have the Migraine against the Pistons in Game seven. He

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Speaker 1: was the one who refused to go in the game

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Speaker 1: in ninety four and look when they asked him about it,

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Speaker 1: he said, I wish it didn't happen, but I would

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Speaker 1: do it again. No one, no one made him say that,

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Speaker 1: No one. This is not Michael Jordan calling him out.

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Speaker 1: And when Jordan did call him out for being selfish,

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Speaker 1: he was being selfish. Jordan also said that he's the

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Speaker 1: greatest teammate he has ever had, and there would be

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Speaker 1: no Jordan without Pippen. Like, what what are we supposed

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Speaker 1: to do? What? What kind of documentary did you want?

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Speaker 1: Is it a perfect, you know, even middle of the road,

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Speaker 1: not taking any side documentary. No, it's not, it's not,

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Speaker 1: and I told you and be But Scottie Pippen is

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Speaker 1: not too made to look like anything other than Scottie Pippen.

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Speaker 1: And much like Horace Grant, he got a huge paycheck

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Speaker 1: when he left town. That's what championships do. I think

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Speaker 1: that's really the part that has changed in the NBA.

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Speaker 1: For the most part. Guys who got rich got rich

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Speaker 1: after they want a title. That's why Jordan's mentality was

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Speaker 1: it was all worth it if you to finally win,

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Speaker 1: right to go all in to win, because he was

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Speaker 1: never making a bunch of money in his NBA salaries,

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Speaker 1: all on endorsements. He didn't get an endorsements, Lest you

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Speaker 1: want something that changed after he left because of what

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Speaker 1: they built and because of what the new CBA looked like.

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Speaker 1: And so now guys they make so much money that

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Speaker 1: if they lose it hurts them, especially the real competitors.

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Speaker 1: It hurts them, but it is not as devastating to

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Speaker 1: their livelihood and their long term financial success. That I

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Speaker 1: think is the biggest change. And do I think Jordan's

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Speaker 1: start and stitch on anybody for the cocaine weed and

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Speaker 1: women of his first NBA team didn't name any names.

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Speaker 1: Orlando Woolridge was on the team. We all know he

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Speaker 1: was in that room, right, No, one, that's not a surprise.

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Speaker 1: These are not breaking stories. The horrorce Grant thing. He

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Speaker 1: thought hors Grant was the snitch, But it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: they didn't give a horse Grant a chance to reply

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Speaker 1: and respond. Of course they did. We just don't believe

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Speaker 1: him because well why would you be friends with the writer.

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Speaker 1: The writer's writing a book, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: you won't talk to the writer. Stop it, stop it.

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Speaker 1: I loved it though. It reminded me of just how

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Speaker 1: good the NBA was back then, and I hope we

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Speaker 1: can get back to that place. In regards to Horrorce Grant,

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Speaker 1: I mean I like Horrce Grant in their first run. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he was the snitch, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't do. I think he was a source absolutely.

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Speaker 1: He even said he had a long relationship with Sam Smith,

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Speaker 1: the writer, So he has a long relationship Sam Smith

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Speaker 1: writes a book. You don't think any of the none

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Speaker 1: of the stuff came from horse Grant. Come on, I

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Speaker 1: was born night last night. And Jordan has the ability

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Speaker 1: to to compartmentalize, like, you can be a snitch and

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Speaker 1: not be a horrible teammate for pipping, you can be

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Speaker 1: selfish and not be a horrible teammate. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what he means. And if you think Jordan's too harsh

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Speaker 1: on a guy who he played with, keep in mind

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Speaker 1: that even though he got paid and he got a

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Speaker 1: huge contract, horse Grant went to play for a division

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Speaker 1: rival a team that ultimately vanquished Michael Jordan's in the

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Speaker 1: NBA playoffs when he just came out from baseball. So Jordan,

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Speaker 1: who's competitive as hell with his own teammates, let alone

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Speaker 1: his opposition. You don't think that if one of his

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Speaker 1: teammates left mid career and went to an opposition he

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Speaker 1: played the playoffs, that he would have something for him.

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Speaker 1: Of course he would. Why because that's Michael Jordan's look.

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Speaker 1: I I I like the documentary. Was it perfect? No?

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Speaker 1: Did miss something? Sure, But guys are acting like no

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Speaker 1: one got in a fight in practice, like or that

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Speaker 1: Jordan was a bullier. I don't know, or that he

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have said, you know, bitch, fuck you to Larry Bird.

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Speaker 1: What are we all supposed to be saints? Nobody speaks

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Speaker 1: this way, not the sport. I know the sport. I

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Speaker 1: know that even your friends you can call the B

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Speaker 1: word too. Like I play the guy Brett Robisch Dave.

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Speaker 1: His dad played in the NBA with a great player

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Speaker 1: in Kansas, and Brett used to score and I'd be like,

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Speaker 1: good bucket, Brett, and He's like, yeah, you bitch, give

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Speaker 1: me the ball some more. Come on, bitch, stop being scared,

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Speaker 1: give me the ball right like this is in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a game. When I played in Russia, I

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Speaker 1: had a couple of teammates and literally the first word

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Speaker 1: out of their mouth was blit where you going, Blit

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, Blitz what you eat? Blitz, which is

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Speaker 1: blot his bitch. That's what they would do. I don't

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Speaker 1: if this is one of those Hey, I understand you

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Speaker 1: think you're looking at people who are like you and

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Speaker 1: talk like you, but they aren't. They absolutely aren't. They're

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Speaker 1: not wired like you. Jordan definitely isn't wired like you.

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Speaker 1: How George's not wired like me, and that's okay. But

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Speaker 1: but his purely driven competitiveness based upon success being measured

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Speaker 1: by if you win or lose, He's a success and

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Speaker 1: I loved hearing every minute of it. I was fascinated

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Speaker 1: by it. I can't believe that the Jazz didn't just

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Speaker 1: outright double team and once across half court if you

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Speaker 1: had well, they had to call a time out. Why

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Speaker 1: do you have to call it time out? Why don't

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Speaker 1: you have a signal for if Michael's isolated at the

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Speaker 1: end of the game, we're automatically doubling. Let's just get

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Speaker 1: make somebody else beet us. Scottie Pippen can't move dead,

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Speaker 1: Robin can't make anything other than a layup. Let's make

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Speaker 1: somebody else beat us. And conversely at the offensive end

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Speaker 1: on the Malone turnover, that was actually mostly on John Stockton.

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Speaker 1: Back in the old days of the NBA, where you

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Speaker 1: had to clear the paint to follow your guy, to

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Speaker 1: stay within a couple feet of your guy, John Pack.

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Speaker 1: John Stockton was only being pressured by Steve Kurl. It's

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Speaker 1: not act like it's Michael Cooper or some freak defensive athlete. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you're you're drobbling the ball up to court, You're

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Speaker 1: John Stockton. Take your time, take a look, wait till

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Speaker 1: Jordan clears before you feed the ball in the post.

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Speaker 1: He didn't. Malone played soft and at the ball stolen

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Speaker 1: from them. That's how it happened. I think that one

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Speaker 1: other part that's missed from from the talk of the

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Speaker 1: Bulls management and UM and even Horse Grant or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Look at the look at the contracts that Horse grants.

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Speaker 1: On a huge contract, he was one of the top

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Speaker 1: five played players in the NBA for the next couple

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Speaker 1: of years. After leaving the Bulls, and obviously Scottie Pippen

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Speaker 1: made like a hundred million dollars after leaving the Bulls,

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Speaker 1: and I understand that the Bulls look cheap. All you

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Speaker 1: have to do is research what Jerry Krause apparently wrote

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Speaker 1: in an unfinished memoir that he was writing, and I

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Speaker 1: tweeted it out. Essentially, it's this like one they met

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Speaker 1: after the season, okay, and after the season they had

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Speaker 1: all the doctors, all the medical people, front office people

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Speaker 1: would ever try to assess things like, look, Luke Longley's done.

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Speaker 1: Phoenix offered him a five year deal. Three years later.

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Speaker 1: I think he was out of the league. He just

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Speaker 1: wasn't moving the same. Now is a center replaceable? Sure? Sure,

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Speaker 1: Dennis Roblin was done. He played two more years of

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Speaker 1: two different teams, Lakers and Mavericks, but he was washed.

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Speaker 1: So now you gotta place those two players, you'd you'd

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Speaker 1: have to beg and plead pipping. And though Pippin played

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Speaker 1: all fifty games after the lockout short in season and

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Speaker 1: played forty minutes of Game one, he was never really

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Speaker 1: the same. And two, and this is maybe most important

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Speaker 1: the information they had at the time, not only was

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Speaker 1: Pippin ticked and wanted to be paid really really well,

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Speaker 1: and it would have taken a lot of cajoling. Also

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Speaker 1: considered that Pippen had a surgery, had surgery two consecutive years,

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Speaker 1: like his body was then he hurts his back, you

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Speaker 1: know in the player hurts his back in the playoffs,

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Speaker 1: had ankle surgery the year before. So are you gonna

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Speaker 1: sign huge money? Just pay a bunch of money to

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Speaker 1: Scottie Pippen when you don't know of his health status.

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Speaker 1: And then he had Jordan's and I don't know how

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Speaker 1: people remember he cut his finger. Look at his retirement

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Speaker 1: thing is right index finger he cut badly with on

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Speaker 1: a cigar cutter, like that's an all timer, right, kind

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Speaker 1: of a cigar hunter. But he did. So we look

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Speaker 1: at it like the the Bulls were just Ron Harper

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Speaker 1: was basically washed up. Um we make Steve Kerr out

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Speaker 1: to be and kur as an incredible leader, an incredible player,

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Speaker 1: but he never started a game for the Bulls, like

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Speaker 1: he was just a shooter off the bench to fit

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Speaker 1: with what they did. So I think they left at

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Speaker 1: the perfect time. I just do would you have rather

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Speaker 1: them getting beaten in the playoffs? This is This is

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Speaker 1: like a Jordan is basically the boxer that says, I

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Speaker 1: want to go out of my sword, you know, don't

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Speaker 1: throw in the towel. I want you to beat knock

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Speaker 1: me out. And you're like, you know what, You've had enough,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, by the way, you go out as

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Speaker 1: the best player, hit in the game winning shot on

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Speaker 1: the road. You know, good night, drive home safely. I

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Speaker 1: think it ended perfectly. Was the documentary the greatest documentary

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Speaker 1: ever seen? No, was the entertaining. Absolutely, did I learned something? Sure?

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Speaker 1: And uh there's some things to emulate their look. Let

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Speaker 1: me just kind of sum up the last dance first.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the game action, I still I still

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Speaker 1: can't believe that Utah didn't double team Jordan's. Like, I

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Speaker 1: just I can't believe it. You know, rule number one

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Speaker 1: in basketball, make somebody else beat you. Yes, Steve Kerr

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Speaker 1: hit the shot in the previous year. Okay, Now in

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Speaker 1: this particular year, you had Dennis Robin couldn't score if

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Speaker 1: you locked him in the gym, Scottie Pippen couldn't move. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it was really smart that out of the time out

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Speaker 1: you had, you know, even defensively, remember the Bulls had

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Speaker 1: gone small. They had Rodman, but then they had cou

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Speaker 1: Coach and Kerr and Jordans and Pippin, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: if anybody wants to argue how the Bulls will be today,

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Speaker 1: they'd be awesome because that would be their small ball lineup.

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Speaker 1: And Robin was an unbelievable defensive player. Could couldn't score,

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Speaker 1: but could pass, could hand dribble, handoff, could do all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. They'd be fine. They would be absolutely fine.

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Speaker 1: And you would have to think that Ku Coach and

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Speaker 1: Kur and Jordan and Pippen would extend their range and

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Speaker 1: shoot at a higher percentage. It was interest you to

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Speaker 1: watch those guys before Game six take you know what

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Speaker 1: looked like thirty ft threes, and they were all casting

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Speaker 1: them instead of shooting the basketball. Like It's really remarkable

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Speaker 1: how guys have improved their range even over the last

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Speaker 1: five to ten years. That's the Steph Curry effect more

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Speaker 1: than anything. Now, Damian Lillard famous for his his range,

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Speaker 1: his ability to shoot shots, you know step inside mid

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Speaker 1: court's crazy. But I can't believe that they didn't make

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Speaker 1: Scottie Pippen beat you at the jump shot. To tell

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Speaker 1: me the jump shot that Scottie Pippen made to win

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Speaker 1: a big playoff game, and he's got a bad back, Like,

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Speaker 1: are you that's fucking coaching mal practice. Make Scottie Pippen

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Speaker 1: beat you, Make Dennis Rodman beat you. This is basketball,

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Speaker 1: one oh one. I still I I can't believe it.

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Speaker 1: I Also I thought Stockton, you know, didn't read the

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Speaker 1: defense and it was at least partially his fault. And

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Speaker 1: you gotta wait till Jordan's clears. Remember the old you know,

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Speaker 1: illegal defense, legal defensive rules. You got you can there

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Speaker 1: was no there was no uh five second count dribbling

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Speaker 1: the basketball. You can hold the hand of Steve Kerr

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Speaker 1: so he can't reach in there. You actually grab his hand.

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Speaker 1: You'll wait till he's open. You wait till he clears,

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Speaker 1: and then you feed the basketball and then you either

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Speaker 1: cut through or wait it just spot up and wait.

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Speaker 1: But he didn't. He kind of got rid of it quick.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it reflected well on stock Now stock

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Speaker 1: And also got a good look out of the out

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Speaker 1: of the time out in the last play, and and

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Speaker 1: Robin was late to close on the switch. There was

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Speaker 1: some basketball analysis stuff that that I thought was missed

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Speaker 1: there that was kind of disappointed in Bum didn't get

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Speaker 1: to talk talks Tech to talk talk to text Winner,

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Speaker 1: didn't talk to Peter Vesti was weird, but I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, all the guys who are in the stories,

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Speaker 1: most of them got to speak and defend themselves, with

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Speaker 1: the exception of Jerry Krauss, who Look, it's a complicated legacy.

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Speaker 1: It really is um And you know though there are

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Speaker 1: there have been other dynasties since the Spurs is the

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Speaker 1: most is really interesting, which is not really a dynasty

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Speaker 1: because they went back to back. They could have went

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Speaker 1: back to back when they beat the Heat. They lost

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Speaker 1: eat the first year, beat the Heat, then the next year.

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Speaker 1: It's a complicated legacy with with the Bulls and with Krause,

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Speaker 1: but it's not like and they're not so that the

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Speaker 1: only one. Obviously we see what let's see what happens

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Speaker 1: in Golden State. Uh, we saw what happened with Miami.

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Speaker 1: With Boston only winning one, it's really hard to win

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Speaker 1: multiple at alone six titles and eight years. Think about

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Speaker 1: I think about what what Phil Jackson was able to accomplish, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean he won three in a row with the Lakers,

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Speaker 1: so in six consecutive seasons he won an NBA championship.

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Speaker 1: That's that. That's crazy. But I I walk away thinking

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Speaker 1: Jordan's the greatest ever. I thought he was beforehand. Um,

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Speaker 1: he had an indomitable will. He forced guys to work hard,

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Speaker 1: he forced them to get in line, and if you're

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Speaker 1: offended by his way of leadership, then they probably got

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Speaker 1: rid of you. If he couldn't, he couldn't do it,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't hack it. It's not for everybody. It's it's

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Speaker 1: not and it's a sacrifice. But the sacrifice is worth

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Speaker 1: it because those teams go down, as you know, the

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Speaker 1: greatest run of the modern era just does. And what's

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Speaker 1: crazy is that a lot of those guys, you forget.

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Speaker 1: They weren't on all six teams. Some of them weren't

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Speaker 1: on three teams. That's my take. Alright, let's get to

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Speaker 1: Steve Hawkins, the now former head coach at Western Michigan.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to catch the live edition of The Doug

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Speaker 1: Gottlieb Show weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific

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Speaker 1: on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio app.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's buckle him in. Um in a long

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Speaker 1: time rankly legendary coach at Western Kentucky and now looking

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Speaker 1: for what's what's the next thing? Remember they won two

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Speaker 1: MAC Tournaments, two regular season MAC championships that they won

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Speaker 1: the MAC West eight times over during his tenure. He's

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Speaker 1: won four games during his college coaching career. And uh

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Speaker 1: Steve Hawkins joins us here on the All Ball Pod Hawk.

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Speaker 1: How are you? I'm doing well, douself. I'm good. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to think back, um, Snow Valley, but I don't

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Speaker 1: remember remember what year, And I don't remember if you

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Speaker 1: were actually my head coach or simply a coach there

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Speaker 1: because and I'll tell you why I want to get

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Speaker 1: to but do you what what do you remember that

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Speaker 1: first Snow Valley basketball Westmont College in Santa Barbara? What

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Speaker 1: are your memories when I bring that camp up? Do

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Speaker 1: you really want me to say it? Yeah? Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you can say you go, like everybody knows, I was

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Speaker 1: an asshole when I was a kid. I'm an asshole now.

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Speaker 1: So what's the difference. Okay, well then good. You can't

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Speaker 1: say it about yourself. Um No, it was Snow Valley

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Speaker 1: basketball camp and gosh almighty, I'm gonna say late eighties,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe early nineties and Charlie Sands and Herb Lizzie

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Speaker 1: the outstanding the directors of the camp. Uh come to

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Speaker 1: me after about day one, um of this particular week,

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Speaker 1: and today, listen, we got a kid, okay, and I'm

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Speaker 1: telling you now he's a pain in the ass, um,

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Speaker 1: but we think you're the guy to handle them. And

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Speaker 1: I said, okay, so they put you, They put you

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Speaker 1: on my team, and you weren't an issue. You question things,

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Speaker 1: but you weren't an issue at all. So from then on,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know how old you were. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say middle school. Maybe, yeah, I went there.

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Speaker 1: I went there. I think from like time I was

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven probably till I was like fourteen. Maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe they let me in. Part of the deal was this, Um,

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Speaker 1: I think I was a freebee. Right, So it's one

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Speaker 1: It's it's one thing to be a pain in the ass.

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Speaker 1: Like I was more of a pain the ass in

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Speaker 1: the dorms, just playing pranks and being a jackass, you

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Speaker 1: know whatever, taking out the slats of bunks, putting icy

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Speaker 1: hot in in in like the roommates underwear like that,

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, right, Like not not only came

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Speaker 1: to the work, like when it came I love basketball,

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Speaker 1: like that wasn't the issue. It was just you know,

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Speaker 1: I like that. That was my way of having a

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Speaker 1: good time. Um, but it's one thing to be a

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Speaker 1: pain in the ass. It another thing when everybody else's

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Speaker 1: parents paying probably at the time three hundred bucks and

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Speaker 1: you're not. You know, your your dad's getting you in gratis.

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Speaker 1: And and I don't know if you remember, there used

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Speaker 1: to be two sessions, and so you know, one session

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Speaker 1: would end on like a Saturday midday and the next

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Speaker 1: session would start on a Sunday afternoon, and so I

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Speaker 1: would stay for my dad. My dad would just take

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Speaker 1: me up and drop me off and then hey, we'll

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Speaker 1: come get him in two weeks. Right, So then, you know,

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Speaker 1: so like they're doing a solid of letting you stay

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Speaker 1: for that extra day when no one's around doing all

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Speaker 1: these things for you, doing it for free, and then yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're paying the ass in the dorm. So I I

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Speaker 1: think that's why I irritated Herban and Charlie more than

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Speaker 1: more than anything else. Um, I think it was it

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Speaker 1: was a boot camp. It was unbelievable. I've been working

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Speaker 1: for a company called sports World. Um that ran all

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Speaker 1: of John Wooden's camps and as well as pat Riley's

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Speaker 1: at the time. Well yeah, um, people like that. And

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Speaker 1: I was worked. That was my that was my summer job.

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Speaker 1: And then I and then I uh found out about

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Speaker 1: snow Valley through a neutral friend that had also worked

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Speaker 1: these camps, went up there. It was like, holy cow,

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Speaker 1: uh country club nothing. Coach Wooden's camps were country club.

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Speaker 1: But the first session of snow Valley was six am,

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Speaker 1: you know. In the last game went off at midnight,

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Speaker 1: you know. So it was I remember Charvis Sam's coming

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Speaker 1: out saying ay lesson to campers as four campers there, Um,

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Speaker 1: sleep is overrated. That was for first line every week

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Speaker 1: at camp and the camp to go crazy and and

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Speaker 1: um yeah it was. It was solid, that's for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The first day and a half no basketball, right you

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Speaker 1: do shooting drills and no basketball, footwork, defense, spacing, all

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Speaker 1: the all the little things. Oh yes, so this isn't

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Speaker 1: This is an honest question. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: know the answer. They still have They sold snow Valley, um,

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Speaker 1: the Westmont version of it, and to the Nike camps whatever.

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Speaker 1: And there's also one of you, sar, but there's one

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Speaker 1: in Iowa. I've been told some of the same coaches

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Speaker 1: run it. Are there like this summer? Are there any

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Speaker 1: basketball Are they basketball camps like that around period? And

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Speaker 1: are there any basketball camps that are gonna be around

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Speaker 1: this summer? No, UM, I don't think that there are

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Speaker 1: Number one on Snow Valley. I'm not sure what happened

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Speaker 1: to it. I believe and I I don't want to

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Speaker 1: speak completely out of place here, Doug, but I believe

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Speaker 1: that Snow Valley there was a guy named Don show

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Speaker 1: Walter who was very, very heavy with UH, with USA

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Speaker 1: basketball and he used to work tremendous person and I

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Speaker 1: used to work UM coach Wooden's camps with him as well,

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Speaker 1: and I believe that he got involved with Snow Valley

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Speaker 1: and that may be the eye because he was a

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Speaker 1: high school coach in Iowa. But in terms of camps,

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Speaker 1: I don't know of anybody UM that has been cleared

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Speaker 1: because of COVID. I don't know of anybody that has

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Speaker 1: been cleared to have basketball camps UH this summer. UM.

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Speaker 1: I spoke with mc cronin how did U c l

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Speaker 1: a UM? And we texted back and forth, and I

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Speaker 1: know they weren't having any And that was as of Casalmady,

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Speaker 1: maybe three four weeks ago. Um, how did what was that?

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Speaker 1: How did you get to go to work John Wooden's camp,

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Speaker 1: because I know you got a chance to be really

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Speaker 1: close with Coach Wooden, especially in the summers. Did that

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Speaker 1: come to me? Yeah, there was. I was coaching in

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Speaker 1: southern California. I was I just graduated from high school.

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Speaker 1: Uh fledgling football career was was done because of knee

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Speaker 1: injuries and and um so I was going to enter

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Speaker 1: junior college and I had to get into and my

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Speaker 1: parents were on my bot about getting a job. And

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Speaker 1: I always knew I always wanted to coach, and and

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Speaker 1: not to get too deep into the wood weeds on this,

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Speaker 1: but basically I found a job board and there was

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Speaker 1: a a freshman coach spot available at Villanova Prep High

401
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Speaker 1: School up and Ohio, California. And then I did that

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Speaker 1: for a year and and I met a guy there

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Speaker 1: that had worked Coach Wooden's camps, and he gave me

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Speaker 1: a brochure and and I applied. I usually I went

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Speaker 1: to Coach Wooden's camps as a kid, and I applied

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Speaker 1: to to work there. The first summer as a counselor.

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Speaker 1: Then the next summer, about halfway through, they promoted being

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Speaker 1: too what was called the head counselor, which is basically

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Speaker 1: the assistant director of the camps. So about four and

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Speaker 1: there was more than one of us. I was that

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Speaker 1: I did it. I ended up doing it the rest

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Speaker 1: of the entirety of the time that he had the

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Speaker 1: camps there, um and that California luther In College in

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Speaker 1: Thousand Oaks, and UM, that's really how it came to be. Now,

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Speaker 1: the big perk working Coach Wooden's camps for me when

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Speaker 1: I was when you're that title, when you have the

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Speaker 1: head counselor job, the big the big perk was you

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Speaker 1: picked him up every morning and you took him home

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Speaker 1: every afternoon. And it was during that time that we

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Speaker 1: got to be. We got to be pretty close. That's

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Speaker 1: about a half hour drive from Thousand Notes to his

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Speaker 1: condo and Encino, and um, so we got to know

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Speaker 1: each other pretty well. It was during that time also

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Speaker 1: his beloved wife now had passed away, and so Coach

425
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: was uh, Coach was very open during that time, and um,

426
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: we got to be. He obviously was a confident, He

427
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 1: obviously was my mentor. In many ways, he was like

428
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: my second father. But at the same time, UM, he

429
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: became a friend, and we brought him back here to

430
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: Kalamazoo UM as a matter of fact, to Western Michigan.

431
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: UM he spoke at a fundraiser for US and two

432
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: thousand six help help our team to take a foreign trip,

433
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: and and it just became a wonderful relationship that it

434
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: got to a point where, oh gosh, there was probably

435
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: a time where you know that two or three weeks

436
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: went by that I didn't speak to him, whether it

437
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: be about life, whether it be just checking in with them,

438
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: or whether it be basketball lives. And I'll tell you that.

439
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you have ever spent any

440
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: time around coaching, what most people know him now as

441
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: his is the pyramid of success. You know, that's what

442
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: has really carried over as part of his legacy. And

443
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: there are people teaching, you know, the pyramid of success

444
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: everywhere in different versions of it. UM And certainly and

445
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: rightfully so. But at the same time, when you got

446
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: coach involved, even as he got a lot older, when

447
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: you've got coach involved in a conversation about basketball, his

448
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: eyes changed. I mean the competitiveness really came back. His

449
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: jaw got set and he became competitive again, and he

450
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: loved to talk basketball still. It was the most interesting

451
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: thing he said about basketball. Oh boy, you know, where

452
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: do you begin there? I think I think that the

453
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: biggest things that I took away from from him on

454
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: the basketball fund was one time he told me it

455
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: took him about the inn where between three and four

456
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: hours to plan a two hour practice. And and he

457
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: put as much time planning his practices, uh, much longer

458
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: planning his practices than he did actually conducting him and

459
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, that was one thing that

460
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: had so the preparation part. Um he took careful, here's

461
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: something crazy. You've been around basketball your whole life. It's

462
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: to here's something crazy to think about you have you know,

463
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: back then practice has started on October, you know, and

464
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: whenever the games began, I don't know, but let's say

465
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: you at a month before before practice, they never scrimmaged

466
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,719
Speaker 1: except for one day a week. U. He felt like

467
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: playing was a privilege, and so it was all about

468
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: preparation and um. Then when he um and during those

469
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: scrimmages leading up to the first game, he would make

470
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: sure that everybody you know, of course this is back

471
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: also when you had a freshman team, energy B team.

472
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: He would make sure that everybody had played the exact

473
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: same amount of minutes in scrimmage time against everybody else

474
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: and and with everybody else. Um. He didn't want anybody

475
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: to have an unfair advantage. For instance, Okay, well you

476
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: get to play with at that time, Lewis al Sindor,

477
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: so you looked a lot better, um or Bill Walton,

478
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: so you looked a lot better. He made sure that

479
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: everybody had the exact same amount of times. Preparation was

480
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: something that really stood out to me. Why are you

481
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: retired when he did? He feel like he retired so early,

482
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: you had so much more to offer. You know, I've

483
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: heard him answer that a million times. I don't have anything,

484
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: I really you know, in all of those conversations in

485
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: the car, I mean in the morning, we were we

486
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: were together, we were alone a lot because it was

487
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: so early when you picked him up, and it was

488
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: just as the majority of the time it was simply

489
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: the conversation about what had happened, giving him an update

490
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: on camp. But in the afternoon, that was the time

491
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: that you were almost never along with him. That's when

492
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: he used that amount of time for interviews. It could

493
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: be it could be a sportswriter, it could be a coach,

494
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 1: it could be anybody that wanted to do an interview

495
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: with him. UM. I would pick him up, Derek Kyle

496
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: Lutheran and and we would drive to and you know,

497
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: and I got to hear all of those questions asked

498
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: and UH, and to hear him answer all of those

499
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: And whenever it came to that question about retirement, his

500
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: answer was unwavering. UM. He said that until that game,

501
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: then until the semi final game UH that year in

502
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: seventy five, I believe it was that he retired. UM.

503
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: When they won, he was on his way to the media,

504
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: and before he went into the media, he said that

505
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: he really he told the team that he that he

506
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: loved him and that UM, they had been one of

507
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: the easiest teams he had ever had to coach, and

508
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: that was something to say for the very last team

509
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: that he would ever coach at U C l A.

510
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: And everybody was shocked. And he said that he did

511
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: not know he was even going to say it until

512
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: he said it, and he knew it was the right

513
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: thing to do and he never regretted it, never looked back. Uh,

514
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: what so you get there in the morning? Was he

515
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: a coffee guy? Was he a te guy? He smoked cigarettes?

516
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: Like like what like? I like to me, that's more

517
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: interesting than anything else. Like what was you pick up

518
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: the old coach in the morning. I know he had

519
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: a new I'm sure he had a newspaper at the time.

520
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: What was what was that like? Yeah, no, it was

521
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: am to the best of myne not. I don't know

522
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: if he woke up and in his in his condo,

523
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 1: if he drank a cup coffee or anything along those lines.

524
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: But the reason I picked him up so early is

525
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: he wanted to have he wanted to eat breakfast with

526
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: the campers. So we would be back in time and

527
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: in the cafeteria when the campers came down, um for breakfast,

528
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: and so he would eat. He would go table to table,

529
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: he talked to coaches, talked to players, the campers there,

530
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: and but he would actually eat breakfast there. Um. He

531
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: never drank, never smoked. As a matter of fact, it

532
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: was shortly one of the most memorable, one of the

533
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: most memorable days I ever had. Was the first time

534
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: really in my life was the first time I got

535
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: invited into coaches condo, and it was shortly after his

536
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: wife had passed away, and um, we were that we

537
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: were in the middle of the conversation and it was

538
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: one of the rare afternoons that I took him home

539
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: with with nobody else in the car. And so as

540
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: we approached his condo, he said, well, Steve, do do

541
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: you have do you have to get back to camp?

542
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: And then he goes, well, what am I thinking? The

543
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: camp is named after me? He said, you can come

544
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: on him. He said, I just tell the two directors

545
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: and named Hector Massis and another one named how Mintrovitch.

546
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: He said, just tell Hector and how that I kept you.

547
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: So I went into his continent and we talked and

548
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: he introduced me to his favorite cocktail um that day,

549
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: which was Welch's Grape Juice with seven out, and and

550
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: that was that was That was about his heavily as

551
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: he ever drank. UM. What about his coaching style did

552
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: you use in the way in which you've coached? Not

553
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: a lot of it, Um, you know, in terms of style,

554
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: there were a lot of the teachings UM here Western

555
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: Michigan that that that I base things on his definition

556
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: of success. I actually have tattoo on my right arm

557
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: of his definition of success. And so we based and

558
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: we took it to recruiting, We took it to everything

559
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: we did, and I've tried to do what I could

560
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: to base my life around it. Um. And and it

561
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: drives me, It really drives me daily. Um. We put

562
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: it on everything in the locker room and so forth

563
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: and so on. But so his teachings and then his fairness,

564
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: his sense of fairness. UM. So, So the general things

565
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: were the takeaways the specifics. It wasn't likely ran the

566
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: high post offense. Um, I was not able to stay

567
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: away from the cursing that the coach wouldn't the coach

568
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't stayed away from me, would never curse things like that,

569
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: And so I wasn't able to stay away from that. Um.

570
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: But but um, in terms of the general principles, yes,

571
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: I mean there's definition of success. The success is peace

572
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: of mind, which is a direct result of self satisfaction,

573
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: which comes from knowing you did the best to become

574
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: the best you're capable of becoming. Um. That that you know,

575
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: We've tried to you know, and I've tried to live

576
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: by that. It doesn't meant the scoreboard, as you know,

577
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: the scoreboard can lie to you. Um, you can win

578
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: a game and play terribly. You know, if you play

579
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: an inferior opponent, you know, you can lose a game

580
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: and so great because you you know, I don't want

581
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: to say great, but you can feel better about it

582
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: because you know, if the Western Michigan Broncos were to

583
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: play the l A Lakers a hundred times, they're gonna

584
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: lose a hundred and one games. Um, but in some

585
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: games you can play better than in the others. You

586
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: have no control over your opponent. You do have control

587
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: over your effort, your concentration, your desire, your preparation. Those

588
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: are things. Those are standards. Those aren't goals. Those are standards,

589
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: and and there's a major difference between the two. And

590
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: so living up to a standard was way more important

591
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: than reaching the goal of twenty wins. You know, you

592
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: have no control over injuries things like that. Um, you know,

593
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: you just so preparation and desire and things along those

594
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: lines were the main things that took away from coach.

595
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: You were the head coach at Quincy. And it's in Illinois.

596
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: For people who don't don't know where Quincy University is.

597
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: You've been assistant there, you left one to St. Andrews,

598
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: you came back. Um, you've been you know, a college assistant.

599
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: You've been a coach in high school and then a

600
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: college assistant for a long time. What was it like

601
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: to get your first head coaching job at Quincy and

602
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: get to call your own plays, make your own team. Oh,

603
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: it was humbling. Um, you know, it's something that you

604
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: really thought was twenty eight Um, when I got the job.

605
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: It's a division to school in Illinois, Quincy University. I

606
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: was the head coach there for nine years and it

607
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: was in the best Division two league in the nation,

608
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: the Southern Indiana. When I was at Quincy, Southern Indiana.

609
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: Bruce Pearl was a coach at Southern Indiana UMU Kentucky

610
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: Wesleyan and he had won the national championship there. Uh

611
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: Ray Harper was the head coach Kentucky wesley They had

612
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: won championships there. Bob Valvano, Jim Valvano's brother, was the

613
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: head coach of bellerman Um. There were just some outstanding.

614
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: Jim Whitezel now the coaches at Buffalo. He was at

615
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: Lewis University, so outstanding coaches in in in a great league,

616
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: and and Northern Kentucky was in the league. They were

617
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: division to school at that time, now Division one in

618
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: the Horizon Conference. And um, it was very humbling because

619
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: you think you're ready, uh in in what what really

620
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: happened there? And this is one of the reasons why

621
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: I think whatever success I had here at Western Michigan

622
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: while I was coaching here, there's so much of it.

623
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: I made so many mistakes early. Um, there wasn't a

624
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: rung on the ladder. Um that I missed coming up.

625
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: You mentioned some of the stops, and there wasn't you know,

626
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: from being a freshman coach to a j V coach,

627
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: to a student assistant at a D one to U

628
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: a graduate assistant that a D two, to a n

629
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: AI school as an assistant, back to a D two

630
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: as a assistant, and then a head coach at the

631
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: D two and Quincy University for the next nine years

632
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: before I came to Western Michigan as an assistant for

633
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: three years and then finally a head coach as a

634
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: at a Division one school. So there weren't too many

635
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: runs on the ladder that I that I missed. I've

636
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: slept in cars, um, you know, on recruiting trips because

637
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: we didn't have the budget. And um, when you start

638
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: making mistakes at the Division two level, especially in that

639
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: first year that you're talking about, Um, there wasn't there

640
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't social media at the time, and sometimes the

641
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: media just missed it altogether, you know, like calling the

642
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: time out you shouldn't have called, or making a substitution

643
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't have made. And you learned from some

644
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: of those things, um early on that might have cost

645
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: you some games, you know at the time, and hopefully

646
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: those mistakes you don't make later on. But I remember

647
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: being extremely humbled. You know, you think you know it all, um,

648
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: and you're ready for the job, and then you get

649
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: over there and you find out, no, no, this is

650
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: much more difficult. And in Quincy, you know, it doesn't

651
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: sound like my Quinty was a basketball crazy city and

652
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: community and so it was the show. There's two big

653
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: high schools there and the university was really so it

654
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: was it was. It was. It was being put into

655
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: the fire in my own way, in my own little

656
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: small world. Uh. You left Quincy to be an assistant

657
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: at Western Michigan under Robert McCullum, while Eve being a

658
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: head coach to be a Division one assistant UM for

659
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: the means and this is one of the things that

660
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: makes coaching so difficult, UM at the college level, and

661
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: that a lot of a lot of folks don't really

662
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: understand you're you're so reliant on everybody else to do

663
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: their job. Also and and UM at Quincy University, budget

664
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: cuts were taking place. UM there were major budget cuts

665
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: taking place. There was a change in the athletic director spot,

666
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: and there was a change in the president's spot. And

667
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: UM the university had falling enrollment and and it was

668
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: in some trouble financially, and they weren't investing in basketball.

669
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: And as I said, Y had place like Southern Indiana

670
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: with Bruce pro they were they were investing. And so UM,

671
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: I just did not see a good future they're UM

672
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: losing literally affects my health, I mean, mental, physical, all

673
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: of it. UM is the losing. And so we we

674
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: just weren't We've been to a lot of n C

675
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: Double A tournaments. We just weren't heaving in the right direction.

676
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: I felt like I was UH in a losing situation.

677
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: So I decided to make the jump. Um okay, So,

678
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: but what's that like? You go from being a head

679
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: coach where you call your own shots. Now you're somebody's assistant.

680
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: Some of you've done before, but something you hadn't done

681
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,479
Speaker 1: in nine years. How difficult was that part of the transition? Yeah,

682
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: the first week is like, what the hell have I done?

683
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: You know, because I've given up all that control, you know,

684
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, you know, you you You've

685
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: got The biggest adjustment is you go from working on

686
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: your own schedule to somebody else's schedule. Um, you know,

687
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: if coach, if a coach gets piste off, and and

688
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: you know, if your head coach gets piste off, kicks

689
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: everybody out of practice. Uh, you know at four thirty

690
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: and says, okay, we're coming back tonight at eight and

691
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna finish practice. Well, you're gonna show up, you know,

692
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter if you had a dinner date

693
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: plan with your wife or not. Um, a daddy daughter

694
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: dance something like, it's all off, you know. And so

695
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: one of the biggest adjustments is just going back to

696
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: working on somebody else's schedule. Now, that was a bad

697
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: part of things. A good part of things was that

698
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: it's back to just being basketball. It was great to

699
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: not have to go in too meetings with the president

700
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: or the athletic director and try and fight for your program.

701
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: It was great to just be back with the guys,

702
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, to be back with players, player development, recruiting, um, film,

703
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: watching film, the stuff that you love to do as

704
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: a coach, and spend time with players and and getting

705
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: to know them better on a personal level. And so

706
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: that was the positive part of things. There's also there

707
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: was some good ants and bad that went along with him,

708
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: But I was really ready for the change. Uh, he

709
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: gets the South Florida job, rotell the head, He gets

710
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: a South Florida job. Um, What was the process like

711
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: of of getting the Western job? Yeah, that was that

712
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: was a difficult time right there, because Western Michigan wasn't

713
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: sure what they were going to do. It wasn't like

714
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: they elevated me immediately. And Robert wanted an answer um

715
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: pretty quick about whether or not I was going to

716
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: go with him to South Florida. And so I had

717
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: to kind of roll the dice a little bit, um,

718
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: and and I stuck around Western Michigan. We were close

719
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: to final exams, and so I stuck around Western Michigan

720
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: and I had talked to the athletic director. Her name

721
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: is Cathy Beauregard, still the athletic director. I had talked

722
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: to her and said, listen, I don't think it's a

723
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: good time to be leaving the kids. They're in the

724
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: middle of final exams. She agreed. I stayed on as

725
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: an interim while they've tried to figure it out. It

726
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: was about two weeks. About two weeks later, um Um,

727
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: with the players support, there were the ones that really

728
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: helped with the whole thing. It was about two weeks

729
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: later that I got the head coaching job. So it

730
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: was it was a little nerve racking. I wasn't sure

731
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: we had done our job. You know, we had built

732
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: the program. When coach McCollum was it was a extremely

733
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: driven man um part of the George Raveling family and

734
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: um it was a tremendous coach and a very hard

735
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: working coach, and it really willed the program from when

736
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: we first got here in two thousand to two thousand three,

737
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: from eight wins to then going to the n I

738
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: T and winning the game. Actually before we took South

739
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: Florida's job. So um, you know, it's one of those

740
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: deals where you do your job and you think you're

741
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: gonna be rewarded and I'll hang out a second and

742
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: maybe without a job altogether, Robert needs to make a

743
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: move down to South Florida. Um or and a Western

744
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: Michigan decides I'm not the guy. You know, where am

745
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: I gonna be? So um, that was it was. It

746
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: was a tenuous time for sure. Then you you get

747
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: the job and you immediately do an incredible job, and

748
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: you had the opportunity to go take other jobs, you

749
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: know what. Okay, so now you take over at Western.

750
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: It's different than uh even you took over a Quincy

751
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: because we take are Quincy. You've been there, but you

752
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: left for St. Andrews and you came back. So this

753
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: is a team where you know everybody, you're the stabilizing force.

754
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: You do end up getting the job and staying behind

755
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: to take me through your first year at Western. It

756
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: was surreal. The first year at Western, Western was our

757
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: best team, and so we built a team and then

758
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: um that year we ended up going six and five

759
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: and winning the MAC and going to the m C

760
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: Double a tournament. So my first year as a head

761
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: coach UM in Division one basketball, you know, all of

762
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: a sudden, you turn around and and we were a

763
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: bit of a story UM that year. And and one

764
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: of the you know, kind of the teams to watch

765
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: out for after we got in. And I remember we

766
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: beat Kent State in the in the MAC championship game

767
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: UM in two thousand four and and I remember the

768
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: relief more than anything else that we because we were

769
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: favorite obviously going into it. And I remember answering your

770
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: question in the press conference about you know, what seed

771
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: we were going to be in the n C Double

772
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: A Tournament. What I thought? I thought, And I said,

773
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't really care.

774
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: It's just going to be a relief two to not

775
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: be favorite again. UM. You know, there's been a lot

776
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: of pressure on on the guys and on us, and

777
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: everybody joked about it and UH. And then our first

778
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: round opponent was Vanderbilt, and UM, through the media types,

779
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: everybody started picking this as an eleven seed over Vanderbilt.

780
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: At the sixth we actually went into the game as

781
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: a favorite, and so it was a it was a

782
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: strange surreal year. All of a sudden, you walk, you know,

783
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: you dream of these kind of things, But the next thing,

784
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, you work out on the practice court, Um,

785
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: you know, and there's four or five thousand fans there

786
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: to watch you practice. And we were down in the

787
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: Orlando that you know. So it is a very strange feeling,

788
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: and it's almost an out of body experience, you know

789
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: when you're when you're walking out onto the court for

790
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: the first time. In the NT Double A Tournament, we

791
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: had a tremendous team with some great kids, kids that

792
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: I'm still in touch with this day. Um, you know,

793
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: talked talked with one of the guards on the team

794
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: just two days ago, Brian Snyder, and and so we

795
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: it was. It was just a very memorable year, a

796
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: very special year. Yeah, Mike Williams is great in that game. Uh, Mario,

797
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: Mario Moore's let you guys up a little bit. Um,

798
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: how much do you remember about the game? You mentioned

799
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: Snyder he obviously struggling one for I checked the stats,

800
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: one for nine, did have six assists? Um, you know

801
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: you had Ben Reid went on to become your best

802
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: player that the following year. Um, I'm here's what I'm

803
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: interested in. So the next year you go to the

804
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: n I t and then you have a very young

805
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: team for a couple of years. Was it more rewarding?

806
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: I think it was about four years later you end

807
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 1: up winning the MAC and you win twenty games, which

808
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: was more rewarding getting that n c A tournament the

809
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: relief in your first year, or rebuilding it and winning

810
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: the league about five years later, Yeah, we were winning.

811
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: We had won some some MAC West titles. I think

812
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: we won eight MAC West titles and uh, seventeen years

813
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: I was the head coach and uh, there's something like that,

814
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: seven eight I don't remember, um, but the two thousand

815
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: and fourteen was the last time we won the MAC

816
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: overall and in the MAC Tournament, and I think that

817
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: there was. Each of them are special in their own way.

818
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: The first one was always obviously special and it was

819
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: a crazy year me taking over as head coach. But

820
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: the two thousand and fourteen team UM was not favored

821
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: at all to win it, and we had some we

822
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: had some great players. Shame Winnington was our center went

823
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: on to play for the Pacers for a while. It

824
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: was still playing in Spain, with some outstanding players on

825
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: that team, um. And it was a great team. They

826
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: really shared the ball well, UM, And so that when

827
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 1: there was a relief, and there was certainly a pleasure,

828
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: I was able to enjoy that, I think more than

829
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: the first one. That because I remember sending the Larry Farmer,

830
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: Um was my assistant coach the the long time u

831
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: C L a legend. He was one of my assistant

832
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: coaches Western for six years with me, and we stood

833
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: on the court as the celebration was occurring and people

834
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: started to cut down nets and all of that kind

835
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: of thing, and both of us were able to really

836
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: kind of I take in the moment, you know, and

837
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: and uh and so I would say I appreciated that one,

838
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: probably a little bit more of The first one was

839
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: more fun. The second one was was probably more appreciated.

840
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting the fourteen squad I called your

841
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: games in Puerto Rico Winnington. I'm gonna say he was

842
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: a sophomore. You also had Matt Stainbrook, who went on

843
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: to be kind of a star at Xavier. You know,

844
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: lost some weight and he played, you know, so Um,

845
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I remember sitting with you and you said,

846
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 1: you said, look this, this kid Wittington is gonna be really,

847
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: really good in a couple of years. But you know

848
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: when you're calling and I hadn't called a ton of

849
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: Mac games, so you know, you kind of got to

850
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: trust your judgment on Just trust me in a year

851
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: or two, this this kid has a chance to be

852
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,959
Speaker 1: a prob. Like whoa hold on, coach, Wait a second.

853
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: I know you love your kids, right um, I want

854
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: to ask you though about about about now the landscape.

855
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you were one of the first to lose

856
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: one of your best players to the transfer up right now.

857
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: A lot of times it's a grad transfer, but sometimes

858
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: it's a regular transfer, like like here here you are

859
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: at a max school and there's you didn't leave when

860
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: you had the opportunity to. Now student athletes are offered

861
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 1: the opportunity, whether it's grad transfer, regular transfer, to transfer

862
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: upper level from UNI MAC to Big ten or whatever.

863
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: What are your feelings about where we are now as

864
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: opposed to when you started at Western in terms of

865
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: the transfer culture. You know what, By the way, I

866
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: got a communa in your memory because I mean going

867
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: back to Haai and you're calling those games Puerto Rico.

868
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: It was Puerto Rico and I remember is Puerto Rico,

869
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 1: and we also, like what you don't know is we

870
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: we went out. I went out to dinner with like

871
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: the referees one night, and it was amazing, Like I

872
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: learned so much more about these referees that I've been

873
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: killing on air for like ten years and end up

874
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: loving these guys. Went out to we went out and

875
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: and you know we're having we're having a mohitos, and

876
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: they know everything about the teams. They know who's good,

877
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: who's not, who's an a hole, who's not. Like it

878
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: was amazing. But yes, of course I hadn't seen you

879
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: in forever and I got a chance to call through

880
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: year games. It was it was a lot of fun.

881
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: And I remember also you did if you remember going back,

882
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: you did uh tournament in Hawaii the Rainbow or not

883
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: the rainboall but the diamond Head. Diamond Head. Yeah, yeah,

884
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: and you were remember Captain you one morning you were

885
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: taking surfing lessons with my wife on Christmas Day. That's right,

886
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: with my wife and Christmas Day we took surfing lessons.

887
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: That's a good that's a good. See See I'm not

888
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 1: the only one the good memory. Well, we'll see I've

889
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: I've been doing my own research. I'm getting ready. I've

890
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: mentioned to you, I'm getting ready to start my own podcast.

891
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: Uh here in a couple of weeks most likely. And

892
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: obviously I'm hoping you returned the favor and come on.

893
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 1: But preparations the key. That's what I keep hearing. So

894
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: it absolutely, it absolutely is okay, So okay, So so

895
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: why didn't why didn't you ever leave? You had opportunities,

896
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: you had for like four team, you win the league,

897
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: You're doing a great job, you have no no, no

898
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: flaws in terms of you know, n c A stuff

899
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: where guys can't hire you. You've coached in the Midwest,

900
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: you have West Coast routs. What why day? Um, It's

901
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: it's harder to answer that question now and and be

902
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: honest with you because of what has taken place. You know,

903
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: I was like, go at Western Michigan, you know, on

904
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: March the eleventh, after twenty years after school. Had I

905
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: known that it was going to end that way, um,

906
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: I probably would have left a lot earlier. The So

907
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: that's the end of it. Um, The real part of it.

908
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: While I was going through it, it was Coach Wooden.

909
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: Coach Wooden's words came back to me over and over.

910
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: They still do come back to me. I remember when

911
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: I took over at Western Michigan and um all, I

912
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: kept hearing from the local fan base and this meant

913
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 1: something to me. And I'm I mean, I realized, you've

914
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: got a national audience. But it meant something to me.

915
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: And when the fans are coming to you and they're saying,

916
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: please don't use my school, the alumni, please don't use

917
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: my school as stepping stuff. Please please, please don't don't

918
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: do this, don't And I realized what the MAC was

919
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: and I had, I did have opportunities. Um, but I

920
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: remembered that, I remembered the loyalty part of things. I

921
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: remained loyal to the university. I like living in Kalamazoo.

922
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: For people that haven't been here, it's like the beer

923
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 1: capital of Michigan. Um there there's I mean, there's grow

924
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: pubs everywhere. Um. And so it's it's just and I'm

925
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: a I'm a beer drinker and a chicken wings kind

926
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: of guy, you know. And and so I was happy,

927
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,959
Speaker 1: and you know, the old thing, don't mess with happy.

928
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: And we were winning. Um. But over the course of time,

929
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: the facility became a real issue. Um, the investment in

930
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 1: the program, I just stopped. And and you know, it's

931
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 1: kind of one of those situations where if it, if

932
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: it isn't broken, don't fix it, you know. So, UM,

933
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: when I look back on it now, Doug, if I

934
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: were if I were to be able to forecast in

935
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: the future and I had a crystal ball, yeah, I

936
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: would have taken one of those opportunities a long time ago. UM.

937
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: But I also can't say that I regret it because

938
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: I you know, I read an interview with Jack Nicholson

939
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: of all people a long time ago, and it was

940
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: coming to as kind as they were throwing the topic

941
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: out at him, and it was in Esquire magazine. They

942
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: were throwing topics at him and he would just kind

943
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: of spout off about it, and the topic came up

944
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: I regret and he said, what's the point. He said,

945
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: I don't believe in regret. It's not productive and and

946
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: and that is always stuck with me. I've never I

947
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: feel the same way. UM, I don't regret it. I

948
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 1: would have missed out on coaching a ton of wonderful

949
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: kids that I have great relationships with to this day. UM.

950
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: That has meant as much to me as everything else.

951
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: But professionally speaking, um, you know, I think there's an

952
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: old adage and coaching, which is, you know, at the

953
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: at the it's a hell of a profession and it's

954
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: a terrible business. Um. And I would agree with that.

955
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's a tough business to be a part of.

956
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: If you go back to the first part of our

957
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 1: segment when we were just talking about it's winning, there

958
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: are so many elements that have to come together. There

959
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: are so many people that have to do their job.

960
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about just the coaches and the players,

961
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: all of the support people, athletic director, associated the marketing people,

962
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: everything that helps you with recruiting. It's all about recruiting,

963
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: you know. And that's why you see. You know, it

964
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: was Adolf for Up a long time ago that said,

965
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: you can't win the Kentucky Derby with the jackass. You know,

966
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: all of this comes down to recruiting and and um.

967
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: And you have to have the facilities in today's world, um,

968
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: to attract these sixteen year old kids that are on

969
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: your campus. I mean the old days of doing it

970
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 1: where you come in and you do a home visit

971
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: and you spend a lot of time maybe in the home.

972
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: You know, they have a full official visit and they

973
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: take the full forty eight hours. A lot of a

974
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: lot of the a lot of these kids make their

975
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: minds up on their unofficial visits. And so that I

976
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: mean there are very few kids now they take their

977
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: full five official visits. UM. So they come in on

978
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: an unofficial visit and they stand maybe a day, maybe

979
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: an afternoon on your campus. You've you've got to hope

980
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: that everything goes well, um during that time. Or maybe

981
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,959
Speaker 1: they come in for a football game. You really need

982
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: to show them and they need to see the right

983
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: things at that time, and they make their mind up

984
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: on a hurt. And so the bells and the whistles.

985
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: That's why you see what Cornerston football does, or or

986
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: what some of the practice facilities that have taken play,

987
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: um you know in in the basketball world. Uh, in

988
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: all the bells and whistles that go into those um

989
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: you know again um looking backwards, Yeah, it would be

990
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: easy for me to say to take take the money

991
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: at another place. UM. At one of the times that

992
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: I was offered to go someplace else, UM. But at

993
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: the same time I remained loyal and I can sleep

994
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: on a soft Pello because of that, tell me about

995
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: the podcast that you're developing. Podcasts, um, So I'm in

996
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: the process. One of the unfortunate situations is with being

997
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: let go in March during the middle of the pandemic,

998
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 1: is that no coaching jobs opened up, you know, And

999
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: and so I was one of the few fortunate how

1000
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: about to put it that way ones to be let

1001
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 1: go in the middle of the pandemic. Um, And so

1002
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: what what UH had to do? I mean, I'm not

1003
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: a guy that sits still well. And so I'm in

1004
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: the process of trying to figure out what I'm gonna

1005
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: do for the next year. Um, and whether or not

1006
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: I really do want to stay in coaching. And so

1007
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: the to cut all the way through a really long story,

1008
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: the thing that kept coming back with podcasts. People kept

1009
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 1: telling me start a podcast because of some of the

1010
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: observations you just thought up about referees, Like I want

1011
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: to pill back some of the layers of the basketball

1012
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: world of college about It will be basketball centric, but

1013
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: it will focus a little bit more on the eccentric

1014
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: than just basketball. So I'm gonna talk I'm going to

1015
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: talk with coaches certainly around the country, but get into

1016
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: more of the personal part of things. I want to

1017
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: talk with coaches wise, you know, what what's it like

1018
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: to what's it like to set up in the stands

1019
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: and hear people screaming at your husband's you know? Or

1020
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: what's it like when you what's it like when you

1021
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 1: when your husband loves a player and you don't think

1022
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: he's very good. Um, you know, kind of thing we'll

1023
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: get into the officiating world. So anyway, one of our

1024
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 1: big philosophies that I've got that here at Western Michigan

1025
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: and developed his next possession a metaphor for life. It's

1026
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: also obviously applicable in the in the basketball world. No

1027
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: matter what happens, you have to get to the next possession.

1028
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: If you score a bucket, you've got to get back

1029
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: on defense. And you know the same thing in life.

1030
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: You know, you get let go from a job, or

1031
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: god forbid that, the death in your family. Um, eventually

1032
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: you've got to get to the next possession. And so

1033
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: the podcast will be called The Next Possession with Steve Hawkins.

1034
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 1: And I'm in the process. I'm trying to do things

1035
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: that you're doing right now. I have no idea what

1036
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: kind of microphone to buy? Um, you know, I had

1037
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: no idea what a pop pat was. I don't know

1038
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: any of these things. So I'm in the process of

1039
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure that out right now. But we think

1040
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: we have a guest lined up, have some guys that

1041
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: are ready to go, and I'm really excited about I'm

1042
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: really excited about it. But uh yeah, it's gonna be

1043
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: a way to kind of kill back and then um

1044
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: hoping to do some games, hoping to get behind the microphone,

1045
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: UM and do some games, assuming we have a basketball

1046
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: season this year. I can't wait. I can't wait to

1047
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: hear it. I would love I would love to be

1048
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: a guest. Last thing, Um, how do how have you

1049
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: handled especially that first conversation when you come home. You've

1050
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: you've been in place twenty years. You know, it's all

1051
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: your You have two little girls, right, that's all they

1052
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: ever knew was Western Michigan Bronco basketball. And your wife.

1053
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: How do you like? You know, you've handled that with

1054
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: with players before, you know, giving them disappointing news, whatever,

1055
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: but when it's your wife who has been through all

1056
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: of it, you know, the good, the bad, Your and

1057
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: your kids that's all they ever know is Bronco basketball.

1058
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: How do you handle that at home? Um, it was

1059
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: it was very difficult, especially with the kids. UM. You

1060
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: know that my wife and I we knew, you know

1061
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: for a while, excuse me, my my wife and I

1062
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: knew for a while that this was a possibility. Um,

1063
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: there was the support was starting to go. Um they

1064
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: didn't offer me a contract two years ago. UM when

1065
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: I was up for renewal and um and and the

1066
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: school is in it was and is in some serious

1067
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: financial trouble, and so cutbacks were coming and major cutbacks

1068
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: were coming. We were being told by our abuotic director

1069
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: to all sports. Then this was before the pandemic. So

1070
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: when the pandemic actually hit, now it's now it's you know,

1071
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: probably three or four or five times worse. But it

1072
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: was still a possibility and we knew that. Um. But

1073
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: I was probably getting expensive for the cutbacks that we're

1074
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: getting ready to to happen, and um and so but

1075
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: it's the same so for me personally because of some

1076
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: of the things we talked about Doug earlier, where where

1077
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: you know you're having to go in and fight with

1078
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: the athletic director, the president every day about your program

1079
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: and what you need to succeed in the in the

1080
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: main team. UM. When when I got let go, it

1081
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well, there's some relief that I don't

1082
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: have to do that anymore. You know. I became happy.

1083
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: And now I've got a whole another set of problems. Um.

1084
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: You know. But but getting out of a loser and

1085
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: getting out of a losing situation now has just occurred.

1086
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: They've made the decision for me. Um. Now telling my

1087
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: kids that's a whole different thing. You're right, because when

1088
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: I tell them that we're no longer going to be

1089
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: at Western Michigan, my daughter Emily who's nine, and my

1090
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: my other daughter list of seven, and the might have

1091
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old steps on. You know, the tears

1092
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: were really really difficult to hand. I had to explain

1093
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: to him that this is and you've got to spend it,

1094
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, to your own family. This is gonna be

1095
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: a good thing. Daddy's gonna be home more. I'm I'm

1096
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: not I'm not going to be on the road as much. Um.

1097
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: That part of things, one of them that that was

1098
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: the single hardest thing that I had to do is

1099
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: to watch your family break into tears. And then the

1100
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: other hardest part was just the players. It was a

1101
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: very emotional locker room. I don't think they expected it

1102
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: um to happen. And so you know, you also have

1103
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: fourteen kids lives and their families that go up in

1104
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: the air with this. Also, all of their futures become uncertain.

1105
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: You basically have we had two sceniors. You basically have

1106
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: twelve free agents. You mentioned transfers, so you have twelve

1107
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: free agents in today's world as well. Two of those kids,

1108
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: even after uh they named the head coach, the new

1109
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: head coach, Um who was a former assistant Um, even

1110
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: after they named him, we had two players the I

1111
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: believe um Ben and Johnson is going to Minnesota and

1112
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: and my Flowers is going to South Alabama. Those where

1113
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: two leading scores. So it's very difficult to watch everybody

1114
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: go through all that. But yes, your family, UM by

1115
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: far the most difficult thing. With the kids. UM, you know,

1116
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: I'll survive. UM, you know, I'm surviving when it comes

1117
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: to that stuff, and really really looking forward to the

1118
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: next year of the podcast, whatever else comes my way,

1119
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: and then we'll get the next spring. If I'm really

1120
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: enjoying what I'm doing, then I'll stay in it um

1121
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: if if I'm not enjoying it and uh and coaching

1122
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: presents itself again, I don't think coaching. I know coaching

1123
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: is not out of my blood. You know, it's saving

1124
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: your your dad forever and uh and in your life,

1125
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,919
Speaker 1: so that that that part of things is still there

1126
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: for me for sure. Also talk you're a good man.

1127
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: You're bet you better coach or big good coaching better man.

1128
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you joining me. I can't wait to

1129
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,479
Speaker 1: be on your podcast and to find out what's next.

1130
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing it'll be a sideline somewhere in the

1131
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: uh in the future. In the meantime, take care of

1132
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: those kiddos and your wife. And thanks so much for

1133
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: joining me. Do You're the best, my friend. I appreciates

1134
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: you having me on. Enjoyed it. Be sure to catch

1135
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at

1136
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: three pm Easter noon Pacific. Great to catch up with

1137
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: Steve Hawkins. Really good dude, who obviously this is like

1138
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: a traumatic time right like you go through, you go

1139
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: through getting fired. I guess the good news is you

1140
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: go through getting fired. But all these years you had

1141
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: spent working and grinding and out in the road recruiting,

1142
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 1: and now you get to spend time with your kids.

1143
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: And now he's done it, and we'll see what happens

1144
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: in the future. I hope, I hope you enjoyed getting

1145
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: chance to know his story, which is really amazing being

1146
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: a sense of the show for for John Wooden right

1147
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: to be in the head coach for seventeen years at

1148
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: Western Michigan in his mid fifties, having a chance to

1149
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: go on to coach somewhere else in the near future. Hey,

1150
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: thanks so much for listening, downloading, subscribing. Don't forget to

1151
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: rate us. I'm Doug Gottlieb in this his all box