1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Kshatrati. This week the future

2
00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 1: of the grid. Today we have part two of the

3
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: grid series for Zero and if you got last week's episode,

4
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,720
Speaker 1: you heard from Sunjeet Sanghera, a grid expert who used

5
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 1: to work for Bloomberg NEF and recently moved to the

6
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:29,880
Speaker 1: National Grid.

7
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 2: When I picture the grids, I picture driving on a

8
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 2: long road trip in Canada. On the side of the highway,

9
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 2: you'd see these power lines stringing across the countryside, and

10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,040
Speaker 2: I remember thinking like, we can't possibly be connecting everything

11
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,520
Speaker 2: together with these wires. That is exactly what we're doing.

12
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 1: The question of grid readiness is fundamental to the energy transition,

13
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: Why we need to update it, how we update it,

14
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,560
Speaker 1: and who is leading the way. This week we talked

15
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: to Keith Anderson, the CEO of Scottish Power, a utility

16
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: here in the UK, facing these questions as the UK

17
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: ushers in a new government, one which is pledged to

18
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,080
Speaker 1: create a new entity called gb Energy that's supposed to

19
00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: give the state a more hands on approach to the

20
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: energy transition. Keith has a few ideas about how to

21
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:40,559
Speaker 1: get the UK back on track from meeting its climate goals. Keith,

22
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

23
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's great pleasure to be here now.

24
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 1: As the CEO of Scottish Power, you're responsible for supplying

25
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 1: electricity to four point six million households around the UK.

26
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: And one of the things we are going to get

27
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 1: into is what you want to see from the UK government.

28
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,720
Speaker 1: But before we do that, I wanted to ask some

29
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:07,000
Speaker 1: broader questions around the grid, around utilities. If you look

30
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 1: at someone in a role like yours, whether it's here

31
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 1: in the UK, or in Indonesia, or in Mexico or

32
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: in Croatia, there is something different about being a CEO

33
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,679
Speaker 1: of a utility company in twenty twenty four. This is

34
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,359
Speaker 1: a very different job from say ten or twenty years ago.

35
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: How different is it?

36
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 3: Well, A lot has changed over the last five ten

37
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 3: years in particular, and I think one of the biggest

38
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 3: things that's changed is people have kind of woken up

39
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 3: to the importance of the grid, woken up to the

40
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 3: importance of how is it we get power to people's homes,

41
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 3: how is it we reconfigure, redesign the grid system for

42
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 3: modern society, and how is it we reinvest in a

43
00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,919
Speaker 3: grid that was built a long time ago to make

44
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,440
Speaker 3: it fit for the future. And I think one of

45
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 3: the biggest things that has changed that debate is this

46
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 3: march towards electrification. If you think about everything that's going

47
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,240
Speaker 3: on in modern society, whether it's eves, whether it's the

48
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:21,600
Speaker 3: electrication of heat, data centers, AI, digital technology, everything is

49
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,359
Speaker 3: about electrification. And that's why one of the constant phrases

50
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 3: that we use when we're speaking to politicians to governments

51
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 3: is now we're saying to everybody, electrification is unstoppable, because

52
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 3: that's the way we're going. And so the more and

53
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 3: more you realize that, the more and more you realize

54
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 3: how important the grid system is. The other great analogy

55
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 3: we use. It's wonderful having an iPhone, and no point

56
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 3: in having an iPhone if you don't have a charger.

57
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,280
Speaker 3: It's the same with an EV it's the same with

58
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 3: a wind farm. If you don't have that grid system,

59
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 3: and you don't have the grid system ready and capable

60
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 3: of dealing with all of that, then none of this works.

61
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 1: But if we look at the grid, electricity has been

62
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 1: the biggest form of energy being consumed in developed countries

63
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 1: for more than thirty years now, so it's not like

64
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 1: electricity or electrification is new. It's the rate of growth

65
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 1: of electricity use that is new. So is it just that,

66
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, developed countries have kind of forgotten how to

67
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,599
Speaker 1: build a grid, and now that electrification is causing demand

68
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 1: to grow much faster than it has over the past

69
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 1: few decades, you're facing these new challenges.

70
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 3: Well, I said, it's a good question and a good challenge.

71
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,479
Speaker 3: I think there's a couple of things going on. I

72
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 3: think in a lot of developed countries, whether it was

73
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 3: an established grid system built your forty fifty, sixty seventy

74
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 3: years ago, there's been a little bit of a maintaining

75
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 3: the assets, if you like, sweating the assets, getting the

76
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 3: best value for money out of those assets, and continuing

77
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 3: to use the assets. What what's then happened is the

78
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 3: generation feeding into them has started to change quite dramatically.

79
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,359
Speaker 3: We were most of us reliant on systems where we

80
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,000
Speaker 3: had big centralized power stations, and we're moving to a

81
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,359
Speaker 3: system now of much more distributed generation. So that starts

82
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: to create challenges on the grid and the way the

83
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 3: grid system works. The other thing that has gone on

84
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,600
Speaker 3: is switching from carbon fuels fossil fuels to renewable energy.

85
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,919
Speaker 3: And again that changes the way the entire system works

86
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 3: and the entire system functions because you have to start

87
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,920
Speaker 3: balancing in a different way. You need more interconnection, so

88
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,479
Speaker 3: you need to start developing your grid. And then the

89
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 3: third bit of it is the electrification. You know, if

90
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,240
Speaker 3: you take a country like the UK, UK is quite

91
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 3: often held out quite rightly as being a leader in decarbonization,

92
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 3: but we are not a leader in electrification. With quite

93
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 3: rightly and very importantly focused on decarbonizing the electricity system.

94
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,160
Speaker 3: But what we now need to focus on is electrifying

95
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,480
Speaker 3: the economy because all of these new technologies and new

96
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:21,679
Speaker 3: industries will look for electricity, data center investors, electrical connection.

97
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,280
Speaker 3: And at the same time you've got older industries, more

98
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 3: established industries, and you've got things like the transport system

99
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 3: moving from carbon to non carbon and electrification as well.

100
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,920
Speaker 1: But if we go back to the point you were making,

101
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 1: which is that because of the distributed nature of electricity

102
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 1: generation today and also the variable nature of electricity generation,

103
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 1: the challenges are different. But you know, about a decade

104
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: ago when renewables became cheap enough to start to replace

105
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,240
Speaker 1: for sol fuel power, either through subsidies or through natural

106
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 1: cost declines. There was this fear that how are we

107
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 1: going to handle thirty forty percent renewables on a grid

108
00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 1: that is variable? And now there are days when the

109
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: grid is completely powered by renewables. So was that fear

110
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 1: mongering overblown? Was the fear just not rightly placed?

111
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 3: You always have a when you're moving for one system

112
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 3: to another, you're about to have a bit of uncertainty

113
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 3: and a bit of concern about how do you deal

114
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 3: with that? How do you manage that? I mean, I

115
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 3: can remember back to when people were getting worried about

116
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 3: ten percent renewables in the system or fifteen percent renewables

117
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 3: in the system. But grid technology moves on as well.

118
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 3: The technology, the way you build the grid, the way

119
00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,119
Speaker 3: you manage the grid, the way you utilize the grid,

120
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,640
Speaker 3: the way you design the grid is all changing at

121
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 3: the same time. And also what you've seen lots of

122
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 3: countries do is more and more interconnection, so making the

123
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,120
Speaker 3: grid system much much more flexible, allowing you to shift

124
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 3: and move power about. You've also seen the rapid growth

125
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 3: in some countries like the UK offshore wind which helps

126
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 3: to balance off some of the intermittency of onshore when

127
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,040
Speaker 3: you've seen the growth of solar, which again helps to

128
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 3: balance that off. So all of these technologies are coming through.

129
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,239
Speaker 3: We're seeing a huge growth and battery technology again helping

130
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 3: to balance and manage fluctuations in the system and voltage

131
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 3: control issues in the system. So all those technologies, all

132
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 3: the variability of the technology, all of that investment interconnections

133
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 3: just making it more and more possible and easier and

134
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 3: easier to up the level of renewables in the system

135
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 3: and manage a system in that way. So now you

136
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 3: rarely hear people talk about the concern of what will

137
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,959
Speaker 3: happen if the wind doesn't blow one day because the

138
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 3: system is run in such a different way. And that's

139
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 3: been part of the big, big investment program that's going on,

140
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,080
Speaker 3: and part of the big investment program that still needs

141
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,040
Speaker 3: to come on the grid.

142
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,040
Speaker 1: Now let's come to Great British Energy. This is a

143
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 1: pledge that the Labor Party has made about what it

144
00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 1: wants to do in energy. Now, the Labor Party has

145
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 1: been quite veig about what exactly GB energy is going

146
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,199
Speaker 1: to be. But from what you know, is this a

147
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,280
Speaker 1: welcome development.

148
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 3: The concept of Great British Energy is fine. I have

149
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 3: absolutely no issue with it at all. In fact, it's

150
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 3: great to have anything being set up or created that

151
00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 3: brings a bigger focus on the future of energy and

152
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,880
Speaker 3: what energy can do to drive the future of economic

153
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,760
Speaker 3: growth in the country. Is a really positive good thing.

154
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 3: So that's brilliant.

155
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 1: I'm very much focused on electricity, not all that.

156
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's the critical thing. Again, it goes back

157
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 3: to the conversation about electrification. Electrification is unstoppable, okay, So

158
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 3: that's great and brilliant. It's now just about where does

159
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 3: it add greatest value and in which processes, And that's

160
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 3: the debate we need to have and get into the

161
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 3: detail of okay. And that's where the expression comes about.

162
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting this is what it is. But

163
00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,959
Speaker 3: if all it ended up becoming was a bank, then

164
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,199
Speaker 3: I'm kind of sitting here, Well, you know what, there's

165
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 3: a hundred banks out there already. I don't need another bank.

166
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 3: If it's involved in looking at policy, if it's involved

167
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 3: in looking at how do we set up the mechanisms

168
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 3: to deliver the hydrogen economy, How do we set up

169
00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 3: and encourage the transfer from gas boilers to heat pumps,

170
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 3: How do we make sure there's a better effective rollout

171
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 3: of ev charging and changing ev charging. How do we

172
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,319
Speaker 3: use existing schemes like the energy efficiency scheme to direct

173
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,000
Speaker 3: the money more to heat pump conversion, etc. Then those

174
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 3: things start to add a huge amount of value. They

175
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,600
Speaker 3: start to unlock a huge amount of investment. Right now,

176
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,920
Speaker 3: if what the program did was buy shares and offshore

177
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 3: wind farms or take stakes and offshore wind farms, fine,

178
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 3: that's not going to build them any faster. It's not

179
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 3: going to deliver them any faster. So it's really about

180
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 3: where you add best value and the kind of amounts

181
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 3: of money that are being talked about being made available

182
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 3: to bridge energy. Then it's about how do you focus

183
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,679
Speaker 3: that And I think innovation and research and development policy

184
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 3: creating the correct mechanisms, creating the right incentives right now,

185
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 3: I think that is where any government coming into power

186
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,480
Speaker 3: could add a huge amount of weight and a huge

187
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 3: amount of speed to what we want.

188
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,200
Speaker 1: Well, that doesn't sound like gb Energy Corporation's job. That

189
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: just sounds like the government's job. Now, Labor has promised

190
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 1: to decarbonize the grid by twenty thirty.

191
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,400
Speaker 3: Is that realistic targets get set all the time? Okay,

192
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 3: and different governments. Different parties bring along different targets. The

193
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 3: government and the run up to the election had targets.

194
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,960
Speaker 3: It changed targets, It made some targets more ambitious, it

195
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,599
Speaker 3: chopped others. I generally don't get overly excited about targets

196
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,040
Speaker 3: and dates. Having ambitious targets is good. If somebody sets

197
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 3: a target of decarbonizing the grid by twenty thirty or

198
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 3: somebody says there's a target of having fifty gigawats of

199
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,440
Speaker 3: offshow win by twenty thirty five, if we end up

200
00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 3: with forty eight gigawatts, is that a disaster.

201
00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: No.

202
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 3: If we end up decarbonizing the system by ninety five

203
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,559
Speaker 3: percent instead of one hundred percent, is that a disaster.

204
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 3: It's great to have big ambition. It's great to show

205
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,680
Speaker 3: the industry, to show the supply chain, to show investors

206
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,960
Speaker 3: we are absolutely serious about this and we will put

207
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 3: in place the policies and the mechanisms to allow you

208
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 3: to invest to deliver it. We will focus on speeding

209
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 3: up the planning system and the clarity of the planning

210
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 3: system to allow your projects to come through, to allow

211
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,839
Speaker 3: you to push harder and go faster. That's what we

212
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 3: want that's what we like to see. Whether the targets

213
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 3: twenty thirty or twenty thirty three doesn't make much difference

214
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,720
Speaker 3: to me as long as I have that ambition, that clarity,

215
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 3: and the policies to back it up.

216
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,319
Speaker 1: Now, there are things that are just called natural monopolies

217
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 1: because of the way in which a particular asset operates.

218
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:54,440
Speaker 1: Typically utilities which are building cables or utilities that are

219
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,320
Speaker 1: building pipes, so water or electricity tend to be natural

220
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: monopolies that it is all only worth having one set

221
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 1: of pipes and one set of cables to do the job.

222
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 1: But natural monopolies should not exist in a proper capitalist

223
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 1: market where there is competition and that drives prices down

224
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,240
Speaker 1: and helps the consumer as well as helps innovation. So

225
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,840
Speaker 1: one way around the whole existence of natural monopolies is

226
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 1: to regulate them, and regulate them well. In this country,

227
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 1: poor regulation of water utilities has meant they're now dumping

228
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 1: sewage at scale and have been doing that for years

229
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:42,360
Speaker 1: into rivers into sea utility regulation has been running okay

230
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 1: so far, But what do you think the governments could

231
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,960
Speaker 1: do better in regulating your business that would enable the

232
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 1: transition to go faster?

233
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 3: I think one of the things when we look at

234
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 3: the UK economy and the balance of competition and regulated

235
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 3: our sets, you need to think very very carefully about

236
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 3: which model works best for what kind of investment. I

237
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,600
Speaker 3: think the regulated model for grid investment, the way it's

238
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 3: working now with the real system, the five year cycle

239
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 3: of investment is actually encouraging all of the right level

240
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 3: of investment to come through. The system are also built

241
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 3: into that mechanism. There's actually a huge amount of competition, okay,

242
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 3: because if you look at the way all of the

243
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,240
Speaker 3: work is procured and the tendering process, there's a massive

244
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 3: amount of competition, and tendering goes on feeding through to

245
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 3: make sure the price that's being paid is market driven

246
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 3: and incredibly efficient and effective, and that feeds into that system.

247
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 3: If you look at the regulator's job, they're managing that

248
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 3: balance between creating the incentive for companies to come forward

249
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 3: invest but managing the scale of that investment and the

250
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,160
Speaker 3: impact and the end customer and the fact that we've

251
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 3: got a model that then stretches that out over forty years.

252
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 3: So when you hear people talking about the billions of

253
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 3: pounds we need to invest in the grid that sounds

254
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 3: quite scary to the public about what's that going to

255
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 3: cost me? Well, you start spreading that out over forty years,

256
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 3: you minimize that impact on individuals, and again that's a

257
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 3: great model. And then what you also need to do

258
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 3: with other parts of the market is look at would

259
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 3: competition be a better answer or the correct answer? In

260
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 3: some cases yes and in other cases no. If I

261
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 3: give you a couple of examples, you look at smart

262
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,080
Speaker 3: metering or meeting and a decision was made several years

263
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 3: ago in the UK to do that as a competitive process.

264
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 3: I think most people now would look at that and go,

265
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 3: you know what, we made a mistake in the UK. Actually,

266
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 3: if ever there was an asset investment program and a

267
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 3: rollout program that was suited to regulated market, it was

268
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,560
Speaker 3: that and would have been far more successful and far

269
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 3: faster at doing it. Where we started the build out

270
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,280
Speaker 3: of offshore wind the regulator looked at creating the off

271
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 3: or the offshore transmission market and putting that those assets

272
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 3: out to a competitive process. It's not been bad. It works,

273
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 3: but the question is what benefit has it brought. It's

274
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 3: a lot more complicated, it's a lot more difficult to

275
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 3: do into marriage and I'm not too sure that there's

276
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,000
Speaker 3: been a massive upside or a massive benefit. So yeah,

277
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 3: what I always say in conversations with the regulators, don't

278
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 3: do competition for the sake of competition. There has to

279
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 3: be a clear, identifiable benefit in terms right now, when

280
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 3: I look at the future of the grid and what

281
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,000
Speaker 3: we're going through in the grid, and if I look

282
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 3: at the future of offshore wind and what we need

283
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 3: to do on offshore wind, the other thing you need

284
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 3: to take into account is we need such a huge

285
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,840
Speaker 3: uplift and investment. We're mapping out massive projects both in

286
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 3: the grid and an offshore. Is that a good time

287
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 3: to fundamentally change the model you're using. I would suggest no.

288
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 3: What you need more than anything else right now for

289
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 3: investors and for that kind of pace of growth is stability,

290
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,640
Speaker 3: transparency and sensible management of the costs and the returns.

291
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 3: And that I think is more critical right now than

292
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 3: worrying about whether it's regulated or whether it's competitive.

293
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 1: After the break, it's not just about the grid, it's

294
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,400
Speaker 1: also about the people who work on it. Keith explains

295
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: why the UK needs more engineers and by the way,

296
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,560
Speaker 1: if you like this episode, please take a moment to

297
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple and Spotify. It

298
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: will help others find the show. Now. You recently said

299
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: that when it comes to the UK making strides and

300
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: clean energy, there are easy answers which don't cost money,

301
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: and that it frustrates you when those avenues are now

302
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,199
Speaker 1: being used. What were you referring to.

303
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 3: That's it in the context of a conversation about how

304
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 3: much money does the government need to put into this

305
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 3: and into the future? Okay, And you know what I

306
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 3: would say is, you know, if you look at the

307
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 3: UK specifically, what is quite clear is that fiscally there

308
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 3: are constraints in terms of where our economy sits and

309
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 3: therefore how much money the government can put forward into

310
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 3: the economy. Okay, in terms of what's called Great British Energy.

311
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,679
Speaker 3: I don't need or want another bank, so I'm not

312
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 3: chasing this government looking for money. Okay. There are good

313
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 3: regulatory mechanisms in the UK that encourage and allow investment

314
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 3: to flow through the grid. There are some great market

315
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 3: mechanisms like the CFD that encourage and allow money to

316
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 3: flow through to allow the buildout of onshore wind, offshore

317
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 3: wind and solar. So those mechanisms are great. What is

318
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 3: it we need now is we need to look at

319
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,920
Speaker 3: what other blockages are in the system. If I look

320
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,200
Speaker 3: at this from the perspective of my company of Scottish Power,

321
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 3: we're part of the a Bodrolla Group. Right now I

322
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 3: can attract twenty to twenty five percent of the air

323
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 3: Bodrolla Group's capital into the UK to invest in the

324
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 3: UK system. I should be able to attract even more

325
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 3: of that. What's the constraint speed? What the speed come

326
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 3: down to? More often than not, it comes down to

327
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 3: things like the planning system. So let's invest in modernizing

328
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 3: the planning system. We've talked about modernization of the grid,

329
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 3: We've talked about modernization of the generation system. What's not

330
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: being modernized as the planning system. We're still operating the

331
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 3: same system of all was operated. We need to get

332
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 3: faster at getting things through that planning system. Now. Part

333
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 3: of that is more resource in the planning system. Part

334
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 3: of it's the coordination of the planning system with other

335
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,479
Speaker 3: bodies and other stakeholders. Part of it's not running it

336
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 3: as a serial process, run it as a parallel process.

337
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 3: There are a whole load of things like that that

338
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 3: can be massively improved. That will allow decisions to be

339
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 3: much clearer, decisions to be made much faster, and allow

340
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: projects to get up and be running much much quicker.

341
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 3: So those things you do not need hundreds of millions

342
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 3: of pounds to resolve those kinds of issues. Okay, they're

343
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 3: also things like new technologies coming into the market, and

344
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 3: that's where governments can really help is how do you

345
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 3: create the right policy framework and policy environment. How do

346
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: you create the right incentives to start allowing things like

347
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,199
Speaker 3: the rollout of ev charging. How do you do the

348
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 3: same thing for the rollout of heat pumps to shift

349
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 3: away from gas boilers to the electrification of heating. How

350
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 3: do you look at and encourage the growth and the

351
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 3: development of the hydrogen sector. Again, from that perspective, we're

352
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 3: not looking for huge amounts of money. A lot of

353
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 3: that is about policy frameworks, market incentives, obligations to start

354
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 3: invigorating those markets and encouraging investment in those markets.

355
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: Another missing piece that you've pointed out is skills. Now,

356
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 1: skills can mean lots of different things, and getting those

357
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: skills can also mean lots of different things. It could

358
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 1: be universities, it could be companies taking on reskilling programs,

359
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 1: but specifically, what skills are missing from the workforce right

360
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: now and who are the actors that can help bridge

361
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: that gap.

362
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, people, skills, jobs is a massive part of this

363
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,239
Speaker 3: conundrum and of the challenge and the opportunity. So what

364
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 3: do we mean by that? This is about getting people engineers.

365
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 3: That covers a multitude of sins or opportunities. But that

366
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 3: is from people who will be outfitting smart meters. It

367
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 3: will be people jointing cables. It will be people stringing gridlines.

368
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 3: It will be people designing and building wind turbines. It

369
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 3: will be people designing and building foundations. It will be

370
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 3: people designing and building converter stations. In HVD we see

371
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: subse cables, Okay. It covers a massive range of skills

372
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: what we see when we look at the growth even

373
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 3: if you just take the grid Okay. National Grid have

374
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: announced a sixty billion pound investment program. We've announced out

375
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 3: to twenty twenty six, a twelve to fifteen billion pound

376
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 3: investment program. There are massive programs of investment out there,

377
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 3: and one of the main parts we need the physical material.

378
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: The other bit is the people to do the work.

379
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 3: And there aren't enough of them right now, and there

380
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 3: aren't enough of them at the trainee level, and there

381
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 3: aren't enough of them at the fully skilled experienced level. Okay,

382
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 3: so what do we need to do? We as an

383
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 3: individual company, we have a big role to play in that.

384
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: So we run an apprenticeship scheme, we're on graduate training schemes,

385
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 3: we go out and do employment schemes, we do gray training,

386
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 3: and every company can look at doing that, but on

387
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 3: its own that's not going to be enough. So we

388
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: need a coordinated approach with the government. Local colleges. Colleges

389
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 3: play a massive part of this. You know, this isn't

390
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 3: just about universities, schools and universities, and we need to

391
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 3: look at the concept of setting up training academies, shared

392
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 3: training academies. Okay, because right now I'm looking to employ

393
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 3: another thousand engineers. My counterparts at SSEE are looking to

394
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 3: employ on other thousand engineers, and my counterparts on National

395
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: Grid are looking to employ another thousand engineers. In fact,

396
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 3: I think right now in and around central Scotland we're

397
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 3: all looking for about two and a half thousand engineers.

398
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 3: There are not two and a half thousand unemployed engineers

399
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: in Central Scotland. So if we don't do anything differently,

400
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: we'll just run around stealing staff from each other. You

401
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: put on top of that all of the supply chain

402
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 3: companies we use, so the cable manufacturers, the civil engineering businesses,

403
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 3: the environmental consultancy businesses we use, and all of this

404
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 3: subcontractors we use. They're also all out looking for staff

405
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 3: as this workload roads grows. So this concept of creating

406
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 3: joint training academies where we put hundreds of people into them,

407
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 3: train them up, and then we can deploy them and

408
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 3: share the resource through the supply chain, share the resource

409
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: through the utility companies.

410
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: But if it's a shared resource for training, that could

411
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: just be done between companies, why do you need the

412
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: government involved.

413
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 3: I just think, you know, it's important to get the

414
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: government involved, just from the point of view, because you

415
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: need to then get all of the colleges involved. You

416
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 3: need to get the schools involved in feeding people into

417
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 3: that program as well. So that involves making sure that

418
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: the school program is set up and designed to feed

419
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: people into it, that the college programs set up and

420
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: designed to help train and run some of the training,

421
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 3: and that you aren't creating another initiative on top of

422
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: fifteen initiatives that are already be run by other bodies.

423
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: It needs a huge amount of coordination to deliver it.

424
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: I know you're not an education policy expert, but I

425
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: wonder what kind of specific interventions in schools, colleges, universities

426
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: you think need to be made to help reduce the

427
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: struggle that your company has to hire the right people.

428
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: A couple of things on that. I think will's talk

429
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 3: about stem about the sciences, about maths, about physics, and

430
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: it's a great thing to focus on. And the more

431
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 3: the more we can encourage children to be studying or

432
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: getting involved in those subjects is hugely beneficial to the

433
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 3: future of our economy, not just from the energy sector

434
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: or the electricity sector, right across the whole of the economy.

435
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: Those skills are fundamental in so many areas. What is

436
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: as important, I think, though, is getting into primary schools,

437
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: and I think you need to start this at primary

438
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 3: schools and also educating the teachers and educating parents about

439
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 3: what's happening and what opportunities there are in the future.

440
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 3: I think right now, if you wander around primary schools

441
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: or go and speak to parents and talk about Oh

442
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 3: have you thought about engineering? I think you would end

443
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: up if you asked ten parents or ten teachers what

444
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: they thought about the future of engineering, you would get

445
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: a very wide and weird array of answers from is

446
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: that something to do with getting your hands dirty fixing

447
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: the underneath of a car? In this country culturally, I

448
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: wouldn't fully appreciate and don't hold the engineering profession up

449
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: to the same level as the accountancy profession, the medical profession,

450
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 3: or the legal profession. It's almost at a level below it,

451
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: I would argue, and I'm not an engineer, I would

452
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 3: argue today that engineering profession should be above all of

453
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: those other professions because of its criticality to the future

454
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: of this country. Whether you're looking at it from things,

455
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 3: whether you're looking at from infrastructure, whether you're looking at

456
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: it from digital technology. We need more people learning those

457
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 3: skill sets, understanding those skill sets, and delivering the future

458
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: of the country.

459
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: Thank you, Keithan, thank you, thank you for listening to zero.

460
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: And next week, on the last installment of our grid series,

461
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: we'll hear from the founder and CEO of DS Conductor,

462
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: Jason Holan.

463
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 4: Fundamentally, progress in conductor is dependent on material science programs.

464
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 4: But when you have better conductors, you also have to

465
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 4: check the box for the utility in terms of their

466
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 4: concern on practicality, safety, reliability, longevity, easy to work with.

467
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 4: Value is not easy.

468
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: He explains why breakthrough technology is just step one when

469
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: it comes to updating the grid. And now, for those

470
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: who wait till the end, the sound of the week,

471
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: that is the sound of a win turbine turning slowly.

472
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to

473
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

474
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with a primary

475
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: school teacher. You can get in touch at zero pod

476
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mighty Lerau. Bloomberg's

477
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: head of podcast is Sage Bauman and head of Talk

478
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: is Brendan Nunan. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly

479
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Kira bindram Anamazarakis and Matthew Griffith, i

480
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: am Akshatrati back So