1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of New World. According to my guests today, 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: we're a quote nation of victims, and I have to 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: tell you I wondered a little bit what he meant 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: by that. The premise of his new book is quote, 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: hardship is now equated with victimhood. The pursuit of excellence 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: and exceptionalism at the heart of the American identity, and 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: the disappearance of these ideals in our country leaves a 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: deep moral and cultural vacuum in its wake. But the 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: solution isn't to simply complain about it. It's to revive 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: a new cultural movement in America that puts excellence first again. 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: I've always agreed we are a country founded by American exceptionalism, 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: and I also believe that instilling those values in future 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: generations will continue America's competitive leadership in the world. Here 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book, I'm really pleased to welcome 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: back my guest, Vivak Ramaswami, somebody who I really enjoyed 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: about thirteen months ago. Well, we discussed his first New 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller, Woke inc. He is the author of 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: the new book Nation of Victims, Identity, Politics, The Death 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: of Merit, and the Path back to excellencebo Vek, Welcome 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me again on news World. 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,919 Speaker 1: When we last spoke, you had created an instant bestseller. 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: What do you think it was about Woke Inc. That 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,919 Speaker 1: really resonated with people? 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: Well, you know, with Woke Inc. I actually told a 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: lot of just personal stories. 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: Right. 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: I had been a CEO in elite corporate America. I 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: had founded a biotech company, built it to a multi 30 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 3: billion dollar business, had been a hedge fund partner before that. 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: And you know, I wasn't a political writer. I wasn't 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: a political commentator. 33 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: I was someone who was lifting the veil on my 34 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: own experiences out of a sense of obligation. 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: Right. 36 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 3: I had been educated in America's elite institutions, had built companies, 37 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: had built personal wealth as relatively young person. So I 38 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: think the part of the personal narrative around that is 39 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: what made the book interesting to others. 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: For me, Actually, the heart of the book, though, was. 41 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 3: In its thesis that companies were cynically exploiting these progressive, 42 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: one sided agendas to aggregate power, sometimes to make an 43 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 3: extra back, but at the expense of American democracy, And 44 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 3: at the end of the book, I have to admit 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: I didn't fully address the other side of this, which 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: is that it takes two to tango. Yeah, businesses can 47 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 3: exploit a populace, but at the end of the day, 48 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: why is the general populace. 49 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: Buying into it? 50 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 3: What is it about our culture and our national psyche 51 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: that causes us to fall for this otherwise obvious trick 52 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: they're playing. That's what this new book is about, was 53 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 3: the spread of that victimhood identity. But in any case, 54 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: I think of it as a sequel to Woke Ink 55 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: and the second step of a journey for me out 56 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 3: of the world of biotech and into the new world 57 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: that I'm in now. 58 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: Well, you talk about how you became conservative in the 59 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: sixth grade because of Jack Welch, who was then the 60 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: CEO of General Electric. I mean, not many sixth graders 61 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: are paying attention to Jack Welch. What happened. 62 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: There's a bit of an oddity. 63 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 3: I mean, my dad was working at the ge plant 64 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 3: in Evendale, Ohio. My dad's one of the smartest people 65 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: I've ever met, probably always will be. But he wasn't 66 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 3: somebody who was particularly career ambitious, He enjoyed his job 67 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 3: as an engineer. He went in, did his part, did 68 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 3: his job, didn't complain, didn't gripe that somebody else got 69 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 3: the job because of their factors that were not as 70 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: good as his, and complain about it now. He just 71 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: went in, put your head down, work, do a great job, 72 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 3: the ideal employee for any business. At the same time, 73 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: Jack Welbs then took over GE apply his protocol to 74 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: be able to cut costs increase profitability of the firm. 75 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 3: My dad went into work one day and they said, 76 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: look to your left, look to your right. Everyone in 77 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 3: the room, one of you will be left standing by 78 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: the end of the layoffs. And for him, that was 79 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: a first generation immigrant, did not come here with more 80 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: than ten dollars in his pocket. He had two kids. 81 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: This was a curveball that GE threw into his life. 82 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: And we knew that that came from on high on 83 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: Jack Welbs. So my dad didn't know him. I didn't 84 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: know him, but he played a big role in our 85 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: family's life. So my dad decided to go to night school. 86 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: He went forty minutes each way to northern Kentucky to 87 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: take law classes. 88 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 2: Because it turned out there was a shortage at ge 89 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: of patent attorneys. 90 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: So he went spotted that opportunity for himself and rolled 91 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: in night school. Thought this was going to bring greater 92 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: job security, less risk of putting food on the dinner 93 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: table for the family. And you know what, my mom 94 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 3: had to watch my little brother. So he took me 95 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: with him to the law classes. And so I would 96 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: sit in the back of the class and listen to 97 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 3: him ask questions, and then we'd drive back at ten 98 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: thirty eleven o'clock at night, back to Cincinnati from Kentucky. 99 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: And you know, my dad's pretty. 100 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: Liberal, and so he would sound off on Antonin Scalia 101 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: and Clarence Thomas. And there's something about being in sixth 102 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 3: grade that makes you want to take the other side 103 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: of your dad. 104 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: And in a certain way. 105 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 3: That's kind of how I backed into accidentally becoming the 106 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: conservative in the family, because I had to play counterpart 107 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: to my dad. And it's funny, that's the story of 108 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: how Jack Welsh turned me into a conservative. I never 109 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: met the guy, but that's how it happened. 110 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I mean, some people could have looked 111 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: at that ruthlessness and said that makes me a socialist 112 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: if only government owned General Electric. 113 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: He did begin with a complicated relationship with capitalism for me, right, 114 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 3: you know, GE didn't actually do well in the years 115 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: that followed Jack Welch, and I don't respect him as 116 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 3: a business leader. But if we're just going to describe 117 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 3: some of the facts here, he cashed out big. 118 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: He made out you know, nine figure maybe. 119 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 3: More in personal wealth out of that, but he cashed 120 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: out at the top where GE was loaded with a 121 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 3: lot of debt, a lot of the businesses that had 122 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: had a lot of the innovative juice squeezed out of 123 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 3: them because of the cost cutting, and GE was on 124 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: a one way decline ever since the moment he left 125 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: my dad's you know, whatever amount they gave for pensioners 126 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: of stock in the company, I mean, it was slashed 127 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 3: to a tiny fraction of what it was at the 128 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 3: time that my dad decided to go to law school 129 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: because of Jack Welch's laoffs, which supposedly accounted for the 130 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 3: stock price increase. 131 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: I'm not going to bear. 132 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: An illusion about the fact that my relationship with capitalism 133 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: and my views of it were at least somewhat complicated, 134 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: even in my high school and college years. I then 135 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 3: got my first job after I graduated in two thousand 136 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: and seven, in the fall of two thousand and seven, 137 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: at a hedge fund in New York City on the 138 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: eve of the eight financial crisis. And I will tell 139 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 3: you that having been through that one two three punch, 140 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 3: it would leave someone possibly quite disillusion with capitalist but 141 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 3: for me, it actually had the opposite effect, And especially 142 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: the two thousand and eight piece of this for me 143 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: was a wake up call to the fact that what 144 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 3: we saw play out in the aftermath of that crisis 145 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: that was not capitalism. That was some distortion of state 146 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: force combined with capitalism to create a new form of corporatism. 147 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: I don't know where you were on this new I 148 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: mean I was at the time and remain a staunch 149 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: opponent to the government bailout. It's under a republican administration 150 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: at the time, by the way, that saved the banks 151 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: when times went bad. But when times went good, the 152 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: bankers made a lot of money where everyone else was 153 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: making an ordinary salary. 154 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: But when times went bad. 155 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 3: You know, the rest of the country had to bail 156 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: out the bankers at the public fisk. 157 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: That was when I really woke up. 158 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: It was the first start of the journey that I've 159 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: since been on to say that you know what, that's 160 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 3: not capitalism. That is a new form of crony capitalism. 161 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: And what we might want to revive is the true 162 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: system of free market capitalism that allows people to win 163 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 3: and lose based on their successes and achievements, rather than 164 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: government picking favorites. 165 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: It's really a form of corporate welfare. I mean, you 166 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: had the secondary treasury came from Goldman Sachs. The light 167 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 1: House chief of staff came from Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs 168 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: was in the meetings with the Federal Reserve in New York. 169 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the challenge having part is that both parties 170 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: had too much corruption, the same thing that happened with 171 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: nine to eleven. Both parties were too guilty to actually 172 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: publicly get to the bottom because each had a deal. 173 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: I'll protect you, you protect me. 174 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: That's exactly, and that was the thesis at the heart 175 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 3: of Woke Ink. You mentioned Goldman Sachs. The first chapter 176 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: of my last book was called the Goldman Rule, which 177 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: refers to not the Golden rule that you and I know, 178 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: but the Goldman rule, as I called it, that he 179 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: who has the gold makes the rules. In two thousand 180 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: and eight, it was Goldman Sachs. Today it's Blackrock. But 181 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 3: it's the same story in new clothing. I think that 182 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 3: calling it out is half the battle. After I did 183 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: write Woke Ink and rolled it out, I did start 184 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: a new business. You know, you may be familiar with 185 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: this as well, Strive that's competing with Blackrocks. So I 186 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: don't want to just be writing books. I want to 187 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 3: be solving this through the market. But writing the books 188 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: is important too because it also reveals the why, the philosophical. 189 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: Worldview for why I'm doing what I'm doing. 190 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: And then that's what led me to this new book 191 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: with the Nation of Victims and the Path back to Excellence. 192 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm curious, because you're so obviously bright and driven. How 193 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: do you divide your time between your market free enterprise 194 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: activities and your intellectual book writing activities. 195 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it varies, so I have a lot of trouble 196 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: new to have to admit switching the channel quickly between 197 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: the two. 198 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: It doesn't work for me. 199 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: When I'm in day to day business building mode to 200 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: have the kinds of ideas to write a book like 201 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: Nation of Victims that I did, so. The text for 202 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: this book was mostly submitted around January February of this year, 203 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 3: subject to some tweaks. You know how this works from 204 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 3: writing your own books too. It takes a long time 205 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 3: to publish. Turned out, it was around January February that 206 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: I got my new business off the ground, Strive, and 207 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 3: so I've probably been working about one hundred and twenty 208 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: hour weeks ever since then. The first break that I 209 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: took from that was this week, and that break constituted 210 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: doing a book tour for this book. 211 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: But that's what my break from the business looked like. 212 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: But right now I'm definitely in a phase of between 213 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: one hundred and hundred and twenty hours a week, hunker 214 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: down building the team here in Columbus, Ohio around the clock, 215 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: getting Strive off the ground. 216 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: But I did take a little vacation to launch this 217 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: book this week. 218 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: I always tell young people you are guaranteed by your 219 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: creator the right to pursue happiness, which is an active verb, 220 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: and you can have the biggest dream you want, but 221 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: just to remember the big dream takes a lot of 222 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: work to become a big reality, and everybody I know 223 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: who's successful works hard. I don't know anybody successful. It 224 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: doesn't work hard. 225 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 3: You know, it might work that way in other countries, 226 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: where success is bestowed upon you through intergenerational means. 227 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: That was the old world European way. In some ways, 228 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: it's the modern Chinese way, right. 229 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: China doesn't have the great tradition of philanthropy, doesn't have 230 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 3: the great tradition of the self made man that you 231 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: see in the United States. But at least in the 232 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: American way, the way the American dream works is you 233 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 3: can pretty much achieve anything you ever want with your 234 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 3: own hard work, your own commitment, your own dedication. 235 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: That is the American dream. I think we have forgotten 236 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: that dream. 237 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 3: As I sometimes say, when you wake up from a dream, 238 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: you remember what it felt like, but you forget what 239 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 3: it was all about. I feel like we're in a 240 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: phase in our national history where you can still remember 241 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: what that dream felt like, but you forgot what the 242 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: dream actually was. And if I have one goal above 243 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: all else, you're not going to have to tell you 244 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: it is reviving that dream for the next generation of Americans. 245 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: Part of that is by living it. And I didn't 246 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 3: think I was going to start another business. 247 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: I thought I was done. 248 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: After I had built my biotech business, I thought I 249 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 3: was moving on to writing books. But at the end 250 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: of the day, I said, look, we can shine a 251 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: spotlight on the problem and complain about it all we want, 252 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: we also have to lead by example, and for me, 253 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: much more appealing than politics was to do this through 254 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: the private sector, where you're actually in charge and able 255 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: to bring competition to the market. So you know, that's 256 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: what led me to the second career phase of mine, 257 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: where I guess I'm back at it in the business 258 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: world again. 259 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: So tell us intellectually, how did you migrate from woke 260 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: to nation of victims? What was the thought process? 261 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 3: I had some incomplete work at the end of wokinc right, 262 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 3: Wokink was all about spotting the problem. The final chapter 263 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 3: of Wokink was a chapter titled who are We? That 264 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 3: was the name of the chapter, and the thesis of 265 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 3: that chapter was that actually the real diagnosis for all 266 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: of the woke epidemic was a black hole of identity 267 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: at the heart of the American soul, where I'm part 268 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: of a generation of millennials. People younger than me are 269 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 3: part of a generation of gen Z that is hungry 270 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: for a cause. 271 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: Hungry for purpose and meaning and identity. 272 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: Yet in a moment in our history where the kinds 273 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: of things that used to fill that hunger for purpose, 274 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: things like faith or patriotism or hard work for that matter, 275 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 3: or family, whatever it might have been, those concepts have 276 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 3: receded in American life. And that's what leaves this black 277 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: hole of a vacuum that allows wokeism or scientism or 278 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: climate religion or whatever it may be to fill that 279 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: hunger for purpose and meaning. Well, that was a diagnosis, 280 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 3: but the solution I didn't really get to in woking. 281 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: And I think the solution to me. 282 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: Was how do you then fill that void with something 283 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 3: more rich and more meaningful that dilutes the poison to irrelevance. 284 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 3: And in a certain way, I have to say that 285 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 3: it was a look in the mirror where I was 286 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: looking in the mirror and I was doing a great job. 287 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 3: Cable television have me on every other night and you know, 288 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 3: pointing out some hypocrisy or other on the other side. 289 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 2: But if I look in the mirror and ask myself, 290 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: how much am I actually. 291 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: Moving the ball forward for the American revival just by 292 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 3: intellectualizing easy hypocrisies I could point out on the other side, 293 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: that's easy to do. The hard part is actually offering 294 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: an affirmative vision for what it means to fill that 295 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 3: vacuum of American identity. That's what I wanted to do, 296 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: and that you're not going to do that in a 297 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: five minute hit on television. I had a best shot 298 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: about doing it in a book. That's what this new 299 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: book is about. The way I described the fact that 300 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: victimhood has become the new American national identity, but we 301 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 3: can fill that void of national identity with a new 302 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 3: one the shared unapologetic pursuit of excellence, and the unapologetic 303 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: piece of this new is pretty important. 304 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: It's not just the pursuit of excellence. 305 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 3: It is the pursuit of excellence without having to apologize 306 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: for it, because it is that apologist culture that I 307 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: think infects the heart of the American soul and has 308 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 3: caused us to abandon this idea that we call American exceptionalism. 309 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: If you could have written a book on becoming a 310 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: nation of winners again. 311 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 3: That's effectively witness is Actually the second half of this 312 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 3: book is that I think that it's important before you 313 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: offer a solution to see the problem with clear eyes. 314 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 3: So what I do is I first lay out the 315 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 3: victimhood cancer across America. 316 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: That's the first third to the first half of the book. 317 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: What I then do is, though I take a step 318 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: back and say, let's take and you'll like this given 319 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: your academic background, we take a tour through history dating 320 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 3: back to post Civil War Reconstruction era history in the 321 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: United States, when a lot of these victimhood narratives began 322 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: in the back of jurisprudence that caused people to see 323 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: themselves as victims, starting in the reconstruction era on the 324 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 3: back of fourteen Amendment jurisprudence substantive due process. 325 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: We go through all of that, but I even go 326 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: further back. I go to Roman history. 327 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 3: I hadn't remembered this since I studied Latin for the 328 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: first time in junior high school. I could hear my 329 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: Latin teacher from eighth grade. In my ear, there was 330 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: no one rise or one fall of Rome. There were 331 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: many rises and many falls. And to those who try 332 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 3: to make the lazy analogy to say the fall of 333 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 3: the American experiment is like the fall of Rome, maybe 334 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 3: you'd actually be well served to study the actual history, 335 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: and what I say is, we're not quite with this 336 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: American experiment yet. We might be at a nator here, 337 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 3: but just like there were many rises in many falls, 338 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: it depends on actually what we do in those moments. 339 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: And so one of the things I loved about going 340 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 3: back to history is it takes the controversy, the partisan controversy, 341 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: out of the proximal present. And I tell the story 342 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: of emperor known as Septimius Severus, for example, one of 343 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 3: many stories I tell. He was known to me when 344 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: I first studied him in high school as the Black Emperor. 345 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: One of the things I discovered when doing research for 346 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: this book is it wasn't until the last few decades 347 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: that he was actually named the black Emperor. It's true 348 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: that he had dark skin, but to the Romans, that 349 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: was like having dark eyes or having dark hair. It 350 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: was just another visual feature of a person. What the 351 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 3: Romans cared about wasn't whether you were a member of 352 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 3: a particular race. They didn't even see it in that urn. 353 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 3: They cared about whether you were a citizen of a nation. 354 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: And I think that that was a telling attribute for 355 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: how the Romans were able to use the concept of 356 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: the nation as something that got them through their toughest times, 357 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: rather than resorting to fractious, genetically defined differences. And the 358 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: funny thing about it is he only became the Black 359 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: Emperor when a TV series in the last twenty years 360 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: you know, had this tagline for this great television special 361 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 3: they wanted to promote where they said the first black 362 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: man to walk the shores of England came not as 363 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: a slave but as a conqueror. 364 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: With some inspiring music in the background. 365 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: In some sense, he was the black Emperor we needed 366 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: in our time of being obsessed with identity politics, rather 367 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: than recognizing actually he happened to have been one of 368 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: the most brutal conquerors in Roman history, including of African slaves, 369 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 3: a part that they didn't tell you. But the funny 370 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: thing is that the positive message we ought to have 371 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: taken away from it is the didn't care how we looked. 372 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 3: He was a Roman. And one of the things I 373 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: asked in this book is when did Rome fall? Was 374 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: it at the end of the Western Roman Empire? Did 375 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: it live on for another thousand years, continuing with the 376 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: Eastern Roman Empire. Maybe Rome was reincarnated in seventeen seventy six. 377 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: You know, nations don't die the way human beings do. 378 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: They have a chance to be constantly reborn as something else, 379 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 3: especially nations like Rome and nations like America that are 380 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: built on ideas rather than on arbitrary geographic boundaries. And 381 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: so when you go through history, then you come back 382 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: in the second half of the book about this pathed excellence, 383 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: the path back to winning. You know, it doesn't land 384 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: on deaf ears, but hopefully I use the history in 385 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 3: the middle of the book to open up some hearts 386 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 3: and minds, which is what I was at least trying 387 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 3: to do with this. 388 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: I have to take you to one Tricklary, because I've 389 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: written three novels built around the Gettysburg campaign, and you 390 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: use Gettysburg as a turning point in a fascinating kind 391 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: of way that I think's worth taking a minute for 392 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: you to sort of share how you see Gettysburg as 393 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: being in a way a launching point for victimhood. 394 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: It's an interesting story and we probably won't even do 395 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: it justice here in a conversation. I'd really encourage everyone 396 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: to take a look at my take on it in 397 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: the book, and competing historians can have competing views of this. 398 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: But I tell the story of general known as General Longstreet. 399 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: And you know, people remember Stonewall Jackson in the South 400 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: as a hero, Robert E. 401 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: Lee as a hero. 402 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: Well, this was actually the guy who won most of 403 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: the battles in the Civil War for General Lee through 404 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: a tactical offense, through defense. He was patient, he wasn't 405 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 3: as flashy as Stonewall Jackson, he wasn't as much about 406 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 3: building his own name up. But at the end of 407 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 3: the day, he was the one who actually encouraged Lee. 408 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: He begged him to a fault, to exercise discretion at Gettysburg, 409 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 3: to not fall prey to the hubris of making that push. 410 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: Lee overruled him. 411 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: Lee recognized he was wrong, and in fact he was 412 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: riding his horse as his men were being shot, saying, 413 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 3: this was my fault, this was my fault. But actually, 414 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 3: as the story got told, in some ways, history isn't 415 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 3: just written by its winners. History is often written by 416 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: its losers. And at the end of the day, Lee 417 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: and Jackson were Southern Confederate heroes, while Longstreet, the guy 418 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: whose advice might have actually led them to be more 419 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 3: successful effectively, was bearing the cross as the guy who 420 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 3: bore the responsibility as the victim of that story, and later. 421 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: On he was actually great friends with Grant. 422 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: This is one of the things I didn't know until 423 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 3: refreshing my history for writing this book. 424 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: I mean, these guys were friends. 425 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: I mean even at the point where they they were 426 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 3: negotiating the terms of surrender, they were playing cards with 427 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 3: each other. You know. Grant actually made a case for 428 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 3: long Street to be pardoned. It's a beautiful story where 429 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 3: you think about these generals on either side, the iconic 430 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 3: generals as enemies. Actually they were each just doing their 431 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 3: job for their respective sides, who they saw their national 432 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: loyalty to. 433 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, there were human 434 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: beings that still had deep respect for one another. 435 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 3: But it turned out that long Street actually he ended 436 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 3: up being, in the post Civil War era, one of 437 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 3: the people who actually quelled a rebellion by a number 438 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: of KKK predecessors in Louisiana, and he became. 439 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: Very unpopular in the South as a consequence. 440 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: Where in some ways we create the villains through history 441 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 3: that we need. We tell ourselves the story we need 442 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: about the Black Emperor, even though that wasn't the story 443 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: at the time. The South then for half a century 444 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: told itself the stories about how they lost the Civil 445 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: War because of James Longstreet, when in fact he might 446 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 3: have been their hero, the hero that they actually needed, 447 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: instead creating the villain that they needed instead. And in 448 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: the wake of this, and it's a longer story to 449 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: how this kind of gave rise to the start of 450 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 3: American victimhood narratives. I think I talk about the lost 451 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 3: Cause narrative in the South in some ways is the 452 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: first true modern American victimhood narrative, the victimhood narrative of 453 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 3: the post Civil War South. But how that then gave 454 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: rise to new black victimhood narratives in response, which then 455 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 3: created new victimhood narratives that then created a cascade getting 456 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: us to it are today. So I love going through 457 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: the history though, because in a certain sense, that gets 458 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 3: us past the conservative liberal boundaries through which we're committed 459 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 3: to viewing every issue today, to sort of take a 460 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 3: more holistic American perspective. This is book is made for 461 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: people who enjoy history much more than woking caise. 462 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: Let's just say that. 463 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: But if that fits you, then I hope it's a 464 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: book that you'll enjoy and learn something from. 465 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the fascinating points you make that 466 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: I had not thought about the way you wrote it 467 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: is that the Fourteenth Amendments due process clause open up 468 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: sort of a whole bag of worms that were so 469 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: all trapped in exactly. 470 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 3: So this is an interesting and untold story. I don't 471 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 3: believe any of the legal historian has covered this ground. 472 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 3: But you know, there was the privileges in Immunity's. 473 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: Clause in the fourteenth Amendment. 474 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 3: And this is what I thought the writers of the 475 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 3: Fourteenth Amendment actually intended to be the most important of 476 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: the clauses. Is the reason they put it first, What 477 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: are the privileges and immunities of citizenship? And I think 478 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 3: that is the question we have yet to answer. We 479 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: need to answer today. What does it mean to be 480 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: a citizen of this country? What are the privileges, what 481 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: are the immunities, and what are the duties. 482 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 2: Associated with citizenship? 483 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, we never had a chance to answer that question 484 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: because of a really bad decision in the case called 485 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 3: the Slaughterhouse Cases, where the Supreme Court effectively said that 486 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 3: was just an administrative clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. But 487 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 3: what that created was a need for the court to 488 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: then find all of its answers through the substantive due 489 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: process clause. And I think that was the beginning of 490 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: the death of our jurisprudence in this country. Speaking of 491 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 3: antonin Scalia, who we spoke about before, in the context 492 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: of my father, this was probably one of his life's work, 493 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: was to point out the legal betrayal at the heart 494 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 3: of what you call substantive due process. That's what ultimately 495 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: led to Roe v. Wade identifying substantive rights in the 496 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: due process clause that never existed in the Constitution. 497 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: But what the due. 498 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 3: Process clause and substantive due process says is that, okay, 499 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: there's certain rights that the Constitution basically has to guarantee. 500 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: The Court could have gone to the Privileges and Immunity's 501 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. 502 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: That would have made more sense. That if you're a 503 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: citizen of this country. 504 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 3: And by the way, the beauty of that is it 505 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 3: didn't say all persons, it said all citizens. 506 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 2: So what are the rights that you gain as a. 507 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: Citizen of this country. That's not just a human right. 508 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 3: Human rights are a different thing. Human rights aren't codified 509 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 3: in the Constitution. Human rights are a colloquial discussion, but 510 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 3: what are the rights that if you're a citizen of 511 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: this country you ought to enjoy. 512 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: The Court never really took that up. 513 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 3: Even though that's what the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment 514 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: wanted them to take up, and instead the Court just 515 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: started making up all kinds of invisible rights, like the 516 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 3: right to privacy or whatever that was codified in the 517 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 3: right to have an abortion in Roe v. 518 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: Wade. 519 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 3: Then, I think led us down a path to say that, 520 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: you know, a lot of the victimhood narratives and identity 521 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: politics narratives, and even the racial equality that we have 522 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 3: to locate into some of the jurisprudence came from this 523 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: idea of substantive due process, which I think in this 524 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 3: new court now is maybe in the process of being 525 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: turned around. If you look at the kinds of things 526 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas has been saying in the wake of Rose overturn. 527 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 3: The problem is that took us a century and a 528 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 3: half to get there. But a lot of the victimhood 529 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 3: narratives that were created in the last century and a 530 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 3: half I trace back to some of the failed jurisprudence 531 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: around substantive due process. Relating to the early cases around 532 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: the fourteenth Amendment. 533 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: One of the things you point out in terms of 534 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: people who in effect have been substantively cheated is that 535 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: Asian Americans are being discriminated against in college applications. But 536 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: the left, which was historically against discrimination, says and does 537 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: nothing about it. 538 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 539 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 3: And look, I think that there is an anti white 540 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 3: discrimination problem in top universities, but the anti Asian discrimination 541 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 3: problem is even bigger. 542 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 2: If you just look at the numbers, and the average 543 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: SAT score. 544 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: Required to get into a top college if if you're 545 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 3: an Asian American applicant relative to a black one is 546 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: over four hundred points and for a test that's only 547 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 3: sixteen hundred, where you can't get less than five hundred 548 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 3: if you try or you have to try really hard 549 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 3: to get less than five hundred. That's a huge swing 550 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 3: at the end of the day. And they call it, 551 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: you know, Harvard, this is one of my alma maters. Certainly, 552 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: we used to call this version of the problem the 553 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: Jewish problem. 554 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: They effectively say the same thing about Asians. Now they 555 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: have an Asian problem. 556 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 3: And my view is, you know what, if you apply 557 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: meritocratic criteria to get the best athletes, the best musicians, 558 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: and of course the best academics, and they all turn 559 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 3: out to be one skin color or another. I could 560 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 3: care less at the end of the day, because you 561 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: know who isn't applying DEI criteria to their college admissions. China, Okay, 562 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: China is applying the meritocratic principles that used to describe 563 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 3: this country, and a certain sense, it makes me both 564 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: sad and worried as a country to see our culture 565 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 3: of excellence and exceptionalism leap oceans to lift up places 566 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 3: like China. Well, ironically, the maoist culture of victimhood in 567 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 3: China has now left to depress the United States. But 568 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: you know, I think part of the goal of identifying 569 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: the problem is to see it with clear eyes. 570 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: Once you see it with clear eyes, you can say. 571 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 3: That, all right, if not out of desire, then out 572 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: of necessity, we're going to have to find that path 573 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: back to meritocracy and excellence. 574 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: And that's the case I'm making the book. 575 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: I happen to agree with you about this importance of 576 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: meritocracy and the idea that you know, people who work 577 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: hard and succeed ought to be able to work hard 578 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: and succeed. It's fascinating to me that none of these 579 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: principles of quotas are applied in athletics. 580 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: It's interesting, right, yeah. 581 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have a quota for short white 582 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: basketball players. 583 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 3: Or for skinny Asian kids with glasses to be on 584 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: the football field either. 585 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: Think about it. So athletics in a way is the 586 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: last stand of a kind of meritocracy of achievement. I mean, 587 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: if you can do it, you can do it, and 588 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: if you can't, you can't. 589 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 3: Everyone told me I wasn't allowed to write in this chapter, 590 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 3: but I have a chapter on black victimhood in this book. 591 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: I think you cannot have a thorough book about victimhood 592 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 3: culture in the United States without taking a clear ride lens 593 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: at black victim They say you can't write that because 594 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: you're not black. 595 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: I don't believe in those kinds of distinctions. 596 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: I think if you actually care about black lives in 597 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 3: this country, you're going to have to talk openly about 598 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 3: the culture of victimhood that permeates much of Black America, 599 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 3: especially in the inner city and other poor and disempowered communities. 600 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 3: And I can go into that newt but one of 601 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: the things I do in the chapter that comes I 602 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 3: think right after that is I have a separate concern 603 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 3: about the spread of victimhood culture to the right. And 604 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 3: just as much as we have a black victimhood culture 605 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 3: in this country, we also have an emerging version of 606 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 3: white victimhood culture to say, well, you know what, you 607 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 3: guys claim those grievances, Well, guess what we're going to 608 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: claim bigger grievances in response. And then you know what, 609 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 3: the Asians are now getting in on the game too. 610 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: So my parents came to this country as immigrants. 611 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: I was first generation. 612 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 3: When I look at my kids generation, the second and 613 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 3: third generations, they're coming up with their own victimhood narratives saying, well, 614 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: I'm actually a person of color and I've been through 615 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 3: all kinds of hardships. That, by the way, is your 616 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 3: grandparents who went through the real hardship, coming halfway around 617 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 3: the world without a dime in their pocket to be 618 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 3: able to make the life that you enjoy today. 619 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: You're the ones spinning up the victimhood narrative. 620 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: And so my concern is that rather than seeing for example, 621 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: the conservative movement rise up, or even second generation Asian 622 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: Americans rise up and said, you know what, We're gonna 623 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 3: defeat victimhood with excellence and meritocracy. Instead, it's going the 624 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: other way around. The spread of victimhood is defeating the 625 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 3: spread of excellence. And everyone is playing the Victimhood Olympics 626 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 3: and there is no gold medalist in the American Victimhood Olympics. 627 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 3: America as a nation is the loser in the end. 628 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 3: And that was another chapter that people told me not 629 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 3: to write about. Right, well, you know your conservative base 630 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 3: isn't going to like this chapter about conservative victimhood. I 631 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 3: don't care if if liberals don't like my black victimhood chapter, 632 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: or people who follow me today don't like me talking 633 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: about conservative victim wood. I think we all have to 634 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 3: take a look in the mirror, take a long, hard 635 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 3: look at ourselves, dig deep, and ask ourselves what it 636 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 3: is that defines our agency as individuals, What is it 637 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 3: that defines our identity as Americans. Let's answer that question 638 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 3: first before just pointing out the hypocrisies on the other side. 639 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: And I say this as someone who's actually been guilty 640 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 3: of this myself. I'm great at pointing out hypocrisies and 641 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: wokink of the other side, But how much what are 642 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: we actually doing to revive American identity only a little 643 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 3: bit by playing the hypocrisy on the other side game. 644 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: I think we need to look inside and ask ourselves. 645 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: How we are going to overcome hardship, rather than claim 646 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 3: to be victims in the face of the hardship that 647 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 3: we face. And I think that's a mistake that we 648 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: conservatives sometimes make too often. 649 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the really important points 650 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: you make that contributes to this whole sense of the 651 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: decay of meritocracy is that government policies have created a 652 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: culture of laziness. I happen to think that's true. And 653 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: I was one of the lead authors of welfare reform, 654 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: which even the New York Times this week has admitted 655 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: had a huge impact. The biggest break in children in 656 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: poverty comes directly as a result of the welfare reform 657 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: bill that Clinton and I got passed in nineteen ninety six. 658 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: But it was all aimed at work. Our response to 659 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: welfare was work, and as Ronald Reagan once said, a 660 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: job is the best social policy. From your perspective, though, 661 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: when you say in your book, government policies have created 662 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: a culture of laziness, What are you thinking of? What's 663 00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: your focus? 664 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: At a bigger picture focus? And in a nearer term focus. 665 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 3: The nearer term focus was just to point out the 666 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 3: laughably predictable pandemic policies that incentivized people not to work. 667 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 3: But the government bore this illusion that Okay, well, that's 668 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 3: going to be temporary. But even if we give people 669 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 3: a disincentive to work for a year or two, once 670 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: we stop giving them those benefits and take them away, 671 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: suddenly people are going to get off their butts and 672 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 3: go back to work again. And one of the facts 673 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 3: that surprised a lot of those policymakers is once human 674 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: beings form a certain habit, once they've grown a culture 675 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 3: to living their life in a certain way, they don't 676 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: respond to economic incentives in quite the same way on 677 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 3: the rebound as they did on the decline. And I'm 678 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 3: a big fan of making my audience is a little 679 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: bit uncomfortable here, and. 680 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: I use this section of the book to do that. 681 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 3: Let's remind ourselves that Kamala Harris and Bernie Sanders, who 682 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 3: said that they would oppose a COVID stimulus package that 683 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 3: did not include two thousand dollars in aid in families 684 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: instead of sixteen hundred dollars. 685 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: That was Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, but. 686 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: Two people supporting that right alongside them were Josh Holly 687 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 3: and Donald Trump. And I think that while this is 688 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 3: a problem that mostly lands at the feet of the Democrats, 689 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 3: I think that this is another one where concertis have 690 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: to look themselves in the mirror and say what role 691 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 3: did we play in also pandering to the Roman version 692 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: of bread and circuses. Okay, if the government aid is 693 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: the bread, then the identity politics is the circus. 694 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: And I think the left. 695 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: Definitely has more of a monopoly on the identity politics, 696 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 3: but both parties have a little bit of blame on 697 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: the bread problem of throwing bread to the masses. As 698 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: we often joke, it's never legal to bribe a citizen 699 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 3: to vote for you, unless you're using government money to 700 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 3: do it. And at the end of the day, we 701 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 3: have created this culture of laziness. Now why has that 702 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: had such staying power? And this is the other part 703 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 3: I hit in the book is that victimhood fits laziness 704 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: like a glove. And what I mean by that is 705 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 3: actually what's at the heart of this is generational sloth. 706 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: People are lazy. It is one of the human vices. 707 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: As I even bet in making my business decisions, never 708 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 3: bet against the principle of human laziness. When you're doing 709 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: a partnership with another company, figure out what gets the 710 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 3: guy on the side to get home at five o'clock. 711 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: That's what's going to get your deal done. But at 712 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 3: the end of the day, now, this is in people 713 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 3: admitting their laziness. 714 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: Take a woman like Daren Ford. 715 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 3: Okay, she was one of the leaders of the so 716 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 3: called anti work movement over the last couple of years 717 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: during the COVID nineteen pandemic, multiple gender identities, whole nine 718 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: yards exactly fits a certain stereotype that you might expect 719 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 3: of someone leading this kind of anti work crusade with 720 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 3: a veneer of social justice behind it. 721 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: But I think that the thing that she says is 722 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: and it's worth taking seriously. 723 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 3: This is not just about not working. This is about 724 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: dismantling the oppression of capitalism. This is about taking apart 725 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 3: the colonialism of capitalism. 726 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 2: That's what this is about. 727 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: And when you give this attitude of laziness, the moral legitimacy, 728 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 3: the moral sanctimony of actually having a moral mission behind it. 729 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: That's what gives it staying power. So it's not just 730 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: the people are lazy. They feel like they're morally justified 731 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 3: in being lazy. Dare I say, even morally obliged to 732 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: stick it to the system and dismantle the oppression of 733 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 3: capitalism this way. And the sad part about it is 734 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: government has subsidized exactly that psychological attitude. And even the 735 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: sadder part about it, it's not just the Democratic Party, 736 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: the Republican Party bears some responsibility too. Well. 737 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting. We have a program called the American New 738 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: Majority Project where we do a lot of polling and 739 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: a lot of focus groups. Seventy six percent of the 740 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: American people believe that you should have to work if 741 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: you get any federal aid, whether it's medicaid or it's 742 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,719 Speaker 1: food stamps or whatever it is. If you're not severely disabled, 743 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: you should have to be working in order to get it, 744 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: which would be of course a revolution and the whole 745 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: structure of the current system. 746 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: It's the obvious principle. 747 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 3: It's part of the welfare reform that you played a 748 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 3: role in passing, just as recently as what a couple 749 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: of decades and a half ago that has become a 750 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: controversial notion today, perhaps even systemically racist if you ask 751 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: the right people. 752 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: At the end of the day, though. 753 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 3: I think that we are dressing up what are basic 754 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 3: human frailties with moral legitimacy. And that's why I think 755 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 3: the cultural aspect of this discussion in this book is 756 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: so important, because we're able to then take off that 757 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 3: cultural veneer and smoke out what's actually going on once 758 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 3: we see that with clear eyes. I'm still an optimist 759 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 3: that we're going to be able to turn this around, 760 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 3: but it's. 761 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: Not going to happen automatically. It's part of why you 762 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 2: know I took the trouble to write the book. 763 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: If you look out, say twenty years, and you imagine 764 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: that we have re established meritocracy, We've re established American exceptionalism. 765 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: How do you think it happens. 766 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it doesn't happen through our politics. So 767 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 3: I'll give you one or two paths to get there. 768 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: I'll give you the positive path that I'm hopeful for, 769 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 3: and then I'll give you the path that I think 770 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: is more likely. The path I'm hopeful for is that 771 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 3: it happens through non governmental institutions like companies, like the 772 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 3: private sector waking up to the fact that the companies, 773 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: in order to be competitive on a global stage, need 774 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: to revive that meritocratic culture within At Strive, this is 775 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 3: the competitor. 776 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: I founded a Blackrock. One of the model shareholder resolutions 777 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: we've said we would. 778 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 3: Support as a shareholder in Corporate America's boardrooms is to 779 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 3: say that hiring should be based on merit without regard 780 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 3: to race, sex, or politics period. 781 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: You'd think that's intuitive, but many companies. 782 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 3: Have adopted these racial equity proposals by shareholder force, voted 783 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 3: for in favored by Blackrock and others in their boardrooms. Well, 784 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 3: I think if we're able to solve this through the market, 785 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 3: where people are able to vote with their dollars every day, 786 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: you don't have to wait till November to vote, You're 787 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 3: voting with your. 788 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: Investment dollars every day. 789 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: To take this change to the private sector, we might 790 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: be able to use the market to get companies like 791 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 3: Netflix to do a one to eighty I mean, Netflix 792 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 3: earlier this year did a one eighty degree turn, and 793 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 3: you know what, I've been a critic of Netflix for 794 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: mentioned the last few years, but I'm a believer in 795 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: calling out good behavior when I see it too. Netflix 796 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 3: had a disastrous quarterly earnings reporter early this year. Subscriber 797 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: growth fell off a cliff, earnings, profits, revenue. 798 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: And you know what they did. 799 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 3: They added excellent to the top of their internal cultural 800 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,239 Speaker 3: document and they told their employees, look, some of you 801 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 3: may be asked to work on projects that we think 802 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 3: have artistic merits that our customers. 803 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: Want to see. 804 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 3: And if you don't want it, and you don't want 805 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 3: to work on it, great, show yourself the door and 806 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 3: feel free to work at a different company. That's a 807 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 3: company at the epicenter of Hollywood. I couldn't imagine this company, 808 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 3: which I've been a critic of for years, saying that 809 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 3: as recently as a year or two ago. So those 810 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 3: are the kinds of things that give me optimism, not 811 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 3: in our politics, but in the private sector. And maybe 812 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 3: i'm biased new because that's the front that I'm also, 813 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 3: you know, playing a role in hopefully helping to create 814 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: through my efforts in the private sector. 815 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: That's the good version. 816 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: Here's the realist version is that it may just happen 817 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 3: as a matter of necessity. 818 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: Okay, And what do I mean by that one word? China? 819 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 3: I go through in the book an Analogy, a deep 820 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: study of the Punic Wars. Which why do I do 821 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: this in the middle of a book about American victimhood 822 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 3: and American excellence? 823 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think history gives us a lens. 824 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 3: And you often hear you know the San Antonio Spurs 825 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: coach Greg Popovitch a legend. 826 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: I like the guy right. He often asks the question. 827 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 3: I sometimes think we're Rome. We're in the beginning of 828 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 3: our decline. One of the things I saying the book 829 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 3: is we would be so lucky as to be Rome. 830 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 2: The real question we ought to be asking is might 831 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: we be Carthage? Okay? 832 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 3: Roman Carthage are drawn into a conflict over a little 833 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 3: island called Sicily. I wonder whether Taiwan might end up 834 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 3: being the Sicily of our era. And we may indulge 835 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 3: ourselves through analogies humble brags, asking ourselves whether we're Rome 836 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 3: over a decline. The Roman Empire lasted thousands of years, 837 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 3: we're turning fifty years into our experiment. The question we 838 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 3: should be asking ourselves if we're really giving into these 839 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 3: victim of narratives and giving up on our meritocratic culture. 840 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 3: We might be closer to being Carthage than to be Rome. 841 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 3: And I think that it might be necessity that serves 842 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 3: us up the need to get our act together if 843 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 3: we do get drawn into either indirect or dare I say, 844 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 3: direct conflict with China over the course of the next decade. 845 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 2: I hope it's not too late. 846 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 3: But sometimes it is hardship, including on a geopolitical stage, 847 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 3: that provides the shock to the system, the kind of 848 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 3: catalyst we need to otherwise wake up from our culture 849 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 3: of sloth and being lulled into our sense of incumbency. 850 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 3: If we're going to break past the incumbency and the 851 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 3: victimhood narratives to winning U abashedly and restoring merit I 852 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 3: hope it doesn't come to it, but it may come 853 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 3: to it that a military occasion, in a geopolitical occasion 854 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: is what prompts us to get back on track. 855 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: No, I think that's a very good analogy. It actually 856 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: be a very interesting study of Carthage in Rome. I 857 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: had some friends who actually during the Cold War formed 858 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: a group that called uself the Carthaginians because they saw 859 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union as potentially being Rome, and they wanted 860 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: to get people to realize that this was a life 861 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: and death struggle. 862 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 3: I'm amazed I didn't come across that. Good for them, though, 863 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 3: because they lit a fire. That's kind of what I'm 864 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 3: trying to do in this book is I make a 865 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 3: provocative case that, you know what, maybe are we Carthage. 866 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 3: I want to light a fire under the feet of 867 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: the American soul and hopefully we wake ourselves up out 868 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: of this sense of entitlement that we otherwise suffer. 869 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: I think we have two very real patterns of threat. 870 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 1: One is a straight out military defeat, which I think 871 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: is more possible than the Pentagon things. The other is 872 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: just gradual decay, not just with China but also with India. 873 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: I mean, the capacity of both of those countries to 874 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: continue to invent the future is pretty powerful. 875 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 3: So here' where I'm gonna admit something to you, or 876 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 3: am gonna remind you of something you probably don't know. 877 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 3: You said we first met thirteen months ago. That was 878 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 3: sort of true. We actually first crossed paths about thirteen 879 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 3: years ago. But you know, you were on a stage 880 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 3: and I was in the audience, so you didn't know 881 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 3: we met, but I remember two things you actually said 882 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 3: during that speech. This might have been when I was 883 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 3: student at Harvard and you might have come to Kennedy School. 884 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 3: You probably don't even remember. 885 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: This, but you said two things. 886 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 3: One was, and I've used this phrase for the last 887 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 3: thirteen years of elegant decay in describing the American decline 888 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 3: that could follow the European way. 889 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: You described Europe's decline as one of elegant decay. 890 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: And that phrase stuck with me because that is the 891 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 3: second path that you just described right now. 892 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: And then this is just for fun. 893 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 3: But I don't know if you remember this, but the 894 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 3: second idea that you threw out for what we should 895 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 3: be doing in high schools was, you know, take the 896 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 3: nerdy guys who were good in math class and give 897 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 3: them money so they could go out on a date 898 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 3: and become the cool guys in school over the athletes, 899 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 3: and let's start the prize system. But you know, in 900 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 3: certain ways you've been thinking about reviving this culture of 901 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 3: merit and exceptionalism more than most, and so I didn't 902 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 3: quite use those ideas in this book, but I will 903 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 3: say the subtext of those ideas shows up all over 904 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 3: this book. 905 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: Actually, well, Mitch Daniel, when he was governor of Indiana 906 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: actually created an annual award for smart people with an 907 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: annual banquet with a letter jacket, et cetera. It's hard 908 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: to realize now, but the original warning about how bad 909 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: our schools was is a book called A Nation at Risk, 910 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: which was published in nineteen eighty three by the Reagan administration. 911 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: And here we are. We're almost thirty years later, and 912 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: if anything is worse, I mean we have not turned 913 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: it around. 914 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: If anything it is worse, it is worse. The good 915 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 2: news is, I think there's going to be a domino 916 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 2: effect across our culture. 917 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: It's not like we have to independently solve the market, 918 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 3: then we have to independently solve the culture and education, 919 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 3: then we have to independently do politics. There's a domino 920 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 3: effect where heir's trigger from all of these things going together. 921 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 3: But I think it's going to take leadership in each 922 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 3: of those institutions. We do have a leadership vacuum of 923 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 3: people who are afraid of saying the kinds of things 924 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 3: that you and I are saying in their boardrooms, in 925 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 3: their superintendent meetings, in school districts. I would say, in 926 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 3: corporate America, these are the places where we had this 927 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 3: culture of fear. I wrote a public letter to the 928 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 3: board of directors of Chevron. Last week there was a 929 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 3: shareholder letter to Chevron. I'm engaging with companies across corporate America, 930 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 3: and many of these engagements, and even in many of 931 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 3: my informal conversations that I'm having with directors and executives 932 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 3: across corporate America, is in private. They will tell you 933 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 3: how much they agree with me. For example, hire based 934 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 3: on merit rather than these other factors. Focus exclusively on 935 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 3: making products and services for profit. Don't apologize for make 936 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 3: a profit, be successful. That is the American way. It's 937 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 3: what your actual capital owners want you to do. Despite 938 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 3: what black Rock tells you. Privately, all of them will agree. 939 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 3: But publicly you look at many of their statements and 940 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 3: their carbon copy prints of what Larry Finks has. I 941 00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 3: mean literally carbon copy prints is like a cut and 942 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 3: and I think that that might sound depressing, but I 943 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 3: actually think it's an opportunity where once you change the 944 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 3: conversation even a little bit, you have a discontinuous leap. 945 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: It's a quantum leap to changing. 946 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,479 Speaker 3: The culture and That's why I'm so focused on doing 947 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 3: this through the private sector, because in doing the world 948 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 3: a partisan politics, you're confined by the jersey of the 949 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 3: team you wear. The other team's jersey tries to characterize 950 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 3: everything you say through a partisan lens. I thought of 951 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 3: running for office as I forget about that. Let's actually 952 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 3: pick the lower hanging fruit. And it's not just the 953 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 3: low hanging fruit that you then get. I think you 954 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 3: get pretty close to the whole tree because the domino effect, 955 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 3: when everyone else starts saying in public what they already 956 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 3: believe in private, we could turn this around quicker than 957 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 3: most people think. 958 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 2: It's not going to happen automatically. 959 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: Though, I think that's right. And of course you make 960 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: a point that I've thought really deserves a lot more 961 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: publicity and a lot more analysis, and that is Larry 962 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 1: Fink in many ways is more destructive than George Soros. 963 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: The amount of power he wields, his ability in essence 964 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: blackmail big corporation because of the weight of the number 965 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: of sheriff v votes is astonishing and is destructive in. 966 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: Two sentences, is it not even close? One? 967 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 3: Is just the scale of capital a right Blackrock manages 968 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 3: depending on the given day, close to ten trillion dollars 969 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 3: compared to what twenty thirty billion dollars that even most 970 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 3: of the wealthiest billionaires would have. 971 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 2: So that's a scale of capital. But the second part 972 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 2: is more important. In Larry Fink's case, it is not 973 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,280 Speaker 2: his money. 974 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 3: It is the money of everyday citizens that is being 975 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 3: used to advance these one sided political agenders. Say what 976 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 3: you will about George Soros or Charles Koch or anyone else. 977 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 3: They're using their money, this guy and Blackrock and his institution, 978 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 3: And I think it's true of Vanguard and State Street 979 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 3: and Investco too. They happen to be smaller, but there 980 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 3: every bit is bad. On these same metrics are using 981 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 3: other people's money, probably the money of most listeners of 982 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 3: this program, to advance values that most of the capital 983 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 3: owners would actually find anathemost. So I think that that 984 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,439 Speaker 3: betrayal is quite something else than a wealthy guy using 985 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 3: his money to advance a political agenda. 986 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: You're exactly right, But I have to ask, You've now 987 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: got both Woking and Nation of Victims. So what do 988 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: you begin to think about as your next book. 989 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 3: Well, you're the first person I'm sharing this with and 990 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 3: it's still subject to change, so don't hold me to it. 991 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 3: But I'm liking the title of my next book as 992 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 3: the heist actually in that book to the extent that 993 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: I find some of the time to write this, which 994 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 3: I hope, you know, we'll see if I can't do 995 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 3: this in the next year. My dream goal would be, 996 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 3: you know, to be as productive as someone like Jo 997 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 3: and I want to do one book a year. That 998 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 3: would be like my dream scenario. I don't know if 999 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: I can commit to that, but one of the things 1000 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 3: I would want to explore that book is what created populism. 1001 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I do want to let 1002 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: our listeners know we're going to have a link to 1003 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: your new book Nation of Victims, Identity Politics, The Death 1004 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: of Merit, and the Path Back to Excellence on our 1005 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: show page at Newtsworld dot com. And I want to 1006 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: right now extend an invitation to you when your new 1007 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: book comes out. I hope you'll come back and join 1008 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: us again because it's always so fascinating to talk with you. 1009 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate it. 1010 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, the vik Ramaswami. Newtsworld is 1011 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: Pretty by Gingerish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 1012 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: is Goernsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 1013 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 1014 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingridge three sixty. If you've 1015 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 1016 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 1017 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 1018 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consign up from my three 1019 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at gingerishthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 1020 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Nutsworld.