1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,199 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: It was really the forensic evidence that led to conviction, 3 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: the kind of meticulous work that Thomas Nabucci produced. 4 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 7 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 8 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 9 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 10 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. When you write a biography 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: about a man dubbed Corner to the Stars, it's bound 15 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: to be a compelling story. Who doesn't want to read 16 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: about the coroner who performed the autopsies on Marilyn Monroe 17 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: RFK and Natalie Wood author and soon Choi tells me 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: about her book La Corner. I have never read a title, 19 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: a review, or an article that I felt was so 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: fascinating where they describe the subject of your book as 21 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: a controversial corner, which I've never put those two words together. 22 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: So I guess this is a great way to introduce him. 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: Tell me about doctor Thomas Noguchi, you know, start wherever 24 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: you think it makes sense. 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: Well, he was the first Asian American chief corner of 26 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: one of the biggest jurisdictions in the country, Los Angeles County. 27 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: You know, I always call him the og inflow answer, like, 28 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: he was the master of the media, how to use 29 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: the press, how he knew what a SoundBite was before 30 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: sound bites. He had this real instinct for self promotion 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: at a time when we're first seeing that emerge. I mean, 32 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: his early career especially parallels the emergence of both television 33 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: and television news, but particularly tabloid news, and I think 34 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: it goes hand in hand. And his career also mirrors 35 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: the post war fascination with death investigation and psychology. And 36 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: I think without Thomas Negucci, you wouldn't have, for example, 37 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: the entire CSI franchise. If there's any TV procedural that 38 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: includes a corner, that's Thomas Negucci's influence. In particular, his 39 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 2: sort of emergence in this time period in southern California 40 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: was also a larger conversation about race. You know, where 41 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 2: Japanese Americans after World War Two were going to fit 42 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: into the racial and social landscape. And you know the 43 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: fact that Thomas Nagucchi did not have a smooth career 44 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: like within LA County, and because he took his role 45 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: seriously as the corner and demanded that his office be independent, 46 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: he was not easily controlled by political interests. But at 47 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: the same time he was really invested in making the 48 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: corner's office as important and visible as the DA's office. 49 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: And so it is a real shift and also the 50 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: rise of the corner as this really kind of important 51 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: figure is tied into and particularly the corner in LA 52 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: the model is the corner medical Examiner, and that is 53 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: kind of rooted in post war science. The historical landscape 54 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: is really complicated. But also at the same time, you 55 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: layer celebrity over this because this is Los Angeles. And 56 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: what I think is really fascinating is that Thomas Nagucci 57 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: was not immune. And you know, he becomes at first 58 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: celebrity adjacent by being the person who autopsies very famous 59 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: people including Marilyn Monroe, Robert Kennedy, you know, and the 60 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: list goes on. He's involved in the tape La Bianca murders, 61 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: and so he becomes famous himself. And I think it 62 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: is only in La after World War Two can a 63 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: corner become a celebrity. And he really predates all these 64 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: people who go on to have these careers commenting on 65 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: whether they are paid experts in various lawsuits and legal proceedings. 66 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: But also there's so many of these shows now that really, 67 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 2: you know, follow death investigation, both fictionalized and not. And 68 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: I think he was really critical. But at the same time, 69 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: it's really strange because he disappears from the historical narrative 70 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: like in the eighties. I was really fascinated that, like 71 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: his entire story was right there in plain sight in 72 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: terms of all the historical records, interviews, and so that 73 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: was also really interesting to sort of see. 74 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you a side note. My other show, 75 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: Buried Bones. I'm with a forensic investigator, Poll Holes, and 76 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: he says it was quincymy who inspired him to go 77 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: into forensics, and doctor Noguchi is the inspiration for Quincy, right. 78 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: He is the inspiration and unfortun fortunately in Quincy Evy, 79 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: the Japanese American character is relegated to a sidekick character, 80 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: with Robert do playing the support role for Jack Lugman. 81 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: But doctor Nigucci was friends with Jack Plugman. It was 82 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 2: something that he valued and you know, was very public 83 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: about and I think he got a real kick out 84 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: of being sort of the inspiration for the show. 85 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: One of the things that you and I had talked 86 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: about before we started the interview was the conspiracy theory. 87 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: You can tell me if he resolves these successfully for 88 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: the conspiracy fans, but he's involved with RFK, Marilyn Monroe, 89 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: Manson Family, Natalie would all of these conspiracies that people 90 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: latch onto, I know, particularly with Marilyn Monroe and RFK. 91 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: Is that typical for a medical examiner, let's say in 92 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: New York, which might have the same amount of celebrity 93 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: or was it just bad luck on his part? Was 94 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: he able to climb out of these conspiracies that were 95 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: surrounding him. 96 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: I think he's forever tied to these conspiracy theories, and 97 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,119 Speaker 2: in fact, you know, he in an interview talks about 98 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: sort of the recurring thought that he has that like 99 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: after he autopsies Marilyn Monroe and gets embroiled in that 100 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: for decades. Maybe they're going to come after him as 101 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: the killer. It's something that generates, I think, a certain 102 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: heaviness for him, but he is determined, not necessarily to 103 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: feed into it, but he's very resolute about sticking to 104 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: the science, and I think that sort of is his 105 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: guide post. But he's also not above capitalizing on it 106 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: for his career and his sort of public persona. He 107 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: freely uses, you know, the phrase the coroner to the stars, 108 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: like I think in that context, you know, you can't 109 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: pick and choose, you take all of it. And so 110 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: by being associated with celebrity and becoming a celebrity, then 111 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: he's tied to these things. And I think this time 112 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: period also like the time period wherein now conspiracy theories, 113 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: you know, tied to the Cold War. Conspiracies come about 114 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: when people are frightened, when people don't have accurate information, 115 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: and there are definitely stark parallels in this time period 116 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: to what is happening now. But the really interesting thing 117 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: is that these conspiracies don't go away. I mean, this 118 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: is why for example, people aren't you know, they just 119 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: release a bunch of papers around Martin Luther King, and 120 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: you know, they recently released additional papers from the JFK case, 121 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: and so they have an ongoing hold on American culture 122 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: in various ways. Thomas Mgucci is tied to these things. 123 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: For better or worse. Was there credibility with these conspiracy theorists? 124 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: Were they just convinced that he was under somebody's thumb 125 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: in the instance of let's say Marilyn Monroe. 126 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. You know, there were a lot of people 127 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: immediately who felt like this was a cover up, and 128 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: then there had to be a connection to the Kennedys. 129 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's tied to both, you know, Cold War fear, 130 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: but also any kind of mistrust in a medical examiner. 131 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: I mean, if you kind of go up the food chain, 132 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: what that really tells you is there is a mistrust 133 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: of the government. In the height of the Cold War, 134 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: the government was doing a lot of things they shouldn't 135 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: have been doing, right. You know, I don't think the 136 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: critique of the government, the mistrust of the government, I 137 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: don't think it's unfounded, but I think there's something about 138 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: the appetite for conspiracy increases. You know, there's tabloid journalism, 139 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: and I think it in many ways becomes a genre 140 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: of itself, a cultural kind of genre, touchstone in and 141 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: of itself. And I think each subsequent sort of time 142 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: period kind of reinvents those Oliver Stone reinvents it, right like, 143 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: so there, I mean, it has this ongoing, this ongoing effect. 144 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: And I also think, you know, people gravitate towards these 145 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: kinds of conspiracy theories oftentimes when you don't know what 146 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: to make of the world too, yeah, right, and you're 147 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 2: trying to understand the world and things are so unstable 148 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: in so many ways, and I think this makes conspiracy 149 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: theories really attractive. 150 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: I've have two teenagers who consume True crime, and I've 151 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: asked them about RFK and of course Marilyn Monroe Manson, 152 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: and they all know the names, you know, both my kids. 153 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: They understand the names, they don't understand the conspiracy or 154 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: what actually happened, and they really don't know. Natalie would 155 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: so let's start with Marilyn Monroe and just give me 156 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of a summary of who she was. 157 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: I would think that most of our audience is aware, 158 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: but maybe just get a little summary and then why 159 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: this would have been a conspiracy and what doctor Nuga 160 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: she found that led to some issues later on, like 161 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: discarded organs. So these conspiracies keep going and going. 162 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe, she was a movie star and when you 163 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: know her death happens, she is a woman, and you 164 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: know that is in her late thirties. And for Thomas 165 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: Negucci for death, he felt very deeply because they were 166 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: the same age. And also you know, she was described, 167 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: even at the height of her fame, as the most 168 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: beautiful woman in the world, but she also was deeply troubled. 169 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: And from the get go, I think if it had 170 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: been a straightforward autopsy, I think there might have been 171 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: less conspiracy around it. But the chief corner at the time, 172 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: this man named Theodor Kurfey, was really interested in death 173 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 2: by suicide and he wanted to really understand why people 174 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: chose to kill themselves, and so he gets involved with 175 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: a team of psychologists and he launches what's called a 176 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: psychological autopsy, and so basically it is this interviewing of 177 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: all of the decedent's friends, you know, to figure out 178 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 2: really what unfolded. And I think what happens is like 179 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: this time period is very different from ours in some ways. 180 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 2: Before like someone would launch like a psychological tool, it 181 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: would have to be vetted and tested, there be human 182 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: subject regards, so there'd be a lot of safeguards in place. 183 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 2: And in this time period, you know, he surprised everyone 184 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: by saying that this was what's going to happen. You know, 185 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: he suspected it was a suicide. Let's do the psychological 186 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: autopsy along with the physical autopsy. But the problem is 187 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: they're not careful. They don't really keep track of who 188 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: they're interviewed. Some really crucial people were not interviewed until 189 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: years after the fact. No, there was no particular protocol 190 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: or training, so it was all very haphazard. But Thomas 191 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: Nagucci does do the autopsy, and they decide, for example, 192 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: not to run all the necessary tests because of the 193 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: psychological autopsy. They have determined, right, they come to this 194 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: conclusion that indeed it is most likely a suicide, and 195 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: that was preemptive in a lot of ways. And then 196 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: because of that, you know, the toxicologist decides to dispose 197 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: of all the organs like that's something that would never 198 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: happen today, right, Like everything is sort of cataloged and 199 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: kept in tissue samples. But this is also happening in 200 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: the early sixties when forensic science is really being established, 201 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: so it's kind of this transition period. I think if 202 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe had died a decade later, it would have 203 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: been quite different in terms of, you know, the protocols 204 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: and things around it. And then because those tissue samples 205 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: are not available, there is you know, a huge flurry 206 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: of conspiracy around that. And then I think the other 207 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: thing that and then Thomas Nagucci of course is tied 208 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: to it. But I think the other part is that 209 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: the public knew less about Marilyn Monroe. I think we 210 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: tend to have readers and people who consume true crime 211 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: today will tell me, oh, absolutely, it had to be 212 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: a conspiracy, right because you know, we knew all these 213 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: things about well, I'm like, actually, no, not in the 214 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: time period, we don't see the whole I call it 215 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: the tmzing of America, where we literally know everything, right, 216 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: we think we do, But we certainly have more access 217 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: to celebrity life, and I think there were lots of 218 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: things about Marilyn Monroe that people did not no. And 219 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: I think about her struggles with depression and mental illness 220 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: and her previous suicide attempts, right, and so but when 221 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: this unfolded, it was a real shock to a lot 222 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: of people without having that knowledge. And then of course 223 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: there's all the conjecture around her involvement with both JFK 224 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: and RFK, who are brutally assassinated in a very short 225 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: period of time, and then that adds to another layer 226 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: to all this. 227 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: So right, there is the connection, and that's where I 228 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: think a lot of the conspiracy comes from. Again, you 229 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: went back to distrust of the government that you know, 230 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: the Kennedys are responsible one way or another for this? 231 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: Am I right in that when I don't think it was. 232 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: Nagucci was a Kurfey who looked and saw the high 233 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: levels of a couple of different kinds of drugs where 234 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: he kind of said, we don't need to go any further. 235 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: This would have killed her number one. But then Nagucci said, 236 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: I don't see pills in her stomach? Is that right? 237 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: Is that that he doesn't see hills, particularly because a 238 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: substantial amount of time had passed before the automsy, so 239 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: that she had already ingested it. You know, later he 240 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 2: theorizes that because she was already habituated to these levels 241 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: of drugs that her body most likely absorbed them more quickly. 242 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: But I think the real issue is that curfe was 243 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: deeply invested in the psychological autopsy, and Thomas Negucci becomes 244 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: invested in it later as well in his career, and 245 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: in some ways Curfey creates this firewall around Nogucci, right, 246 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: like saying, you know, I'm not doing the autopsy even 247 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: though I'm the chief corner. I have this other person 248 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: doing it in my office. Again, I think it is 249 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: really about the fact that the public was so shocked 250 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: by her death and without this other knowledge about her, 251 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: that it seemed she was in the middle of a 252 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: comeback right for her career. This is what her friends 253 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 2: are saying. It's the idea that all these things can 254 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: be true. She could have made plans with friends, she 255 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: could have been in the middle of a career comeback 256 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: and she was striving for that. But she could also 257 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: have been an addict. And I think in conspiracy theories 258 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: that's very hard to hold. Conspiracy theories are almost always 259 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: sort of well, you know, it's a zero sum game, yeah, 260 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: like it has to be this, And I think that's 261 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 2: why this particular conspiracy theory continues. 262 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: What about RFK And then I definitely also want to 263 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: talk about some of the lesser known stuff, the thing 264 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: that he had discovered that was the controversial part. And 265 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: tell me if I'm wrong about this is the direction 266 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: in which the bullet came and hit RFK, Right, And 267 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: I quite don't. I don't know if I understand what 268 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: the thinking there was with the conspiracy theory. So set 269 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: that up for me. Yeah, Robert Kennedy was a up 270 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: center MISSUS senator. 271 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was not going to run at the time, 272 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: but then he changes his mind and it becomes a 273 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 2: really big deal because he has this appeal for people 274 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 2: like as not just a politician but a person. Right. 275 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: It is also the legacy of the assassination of his brother. 276 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: It is at a moment of deep social unrest in 277 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: the US, and increasingly people who had felt quite hopeless 278 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: about politics and about the US and about the American 279 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: political system imbued him with all this kind of hope 280 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 2: and optimism. And when he is assassinated, the conspiracy theories 281 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: start almost immediately because of his brother's assassination, right, you know, 282 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: they are a political dynasty and if the US ever 283 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: had anything akin to royalty, it would be the Kennedy family, right, 284 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: but it just wasn't that. It was also in the 285 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: wake of the assassination of Malcolm X, So this is 286 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: a time of you know, real political unrest. But when 287 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: this happens, I think part of it is that there 288 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: were so many people who were so sure about what 289 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: they saw, right, because this happens, you know, in the 290 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: ambassador a hotel, it happens right in the in the kitchen. 291 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: There are eyewitnesses and that's the key here, And what 292 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: subsequent research has revealed is eyewitness accounts are really unreliable. 293 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: So these people were there, of course it must be true. 294 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: And you know it was always the issue what there 295 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: were second gunmen? Right? So is this some kind of plot? 296 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: Was you know, like who else is involved? It just 297 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 2: can't be sir Hunter and there has to be something 298 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: bigger involved. I think what's very clear though for Thomas 299 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: Nagucci is that, well you have to look at this 300 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: through not just eyewitness accounts, but also through science. He 301 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: dem streets very clearly that what had happened with the 302 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 2: bullet trajectories, there was no one that close, right, all 303 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: the eyewitnesses said, so there has to be another gunman, Sir, 304 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: answer him, wasn't that close to cause the kind of 305 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: injury and the bullet trajectories that RFK suffered. But then 306 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 2: you know, during the trial, Thomas Dagucchi demonstrates, if you 307 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: were standing here and if you were turning, indeed, this 308 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: is what could be the trajectories. But if you have 309 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: that kind of level of mistrust in the government, that 310 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: scientific explanation will not land. But what he is known 311 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: for though, because it was agreed on even at that 312 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: time that JFK's autopsy was largely botched because they did 313 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: not have forensic pathologists who did the autopsy, et cetera. 314 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: And so Thomas Noguchi was under a great deal of 315 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: pressure and he executed WHATEO will now call the perfect autopsy. 316 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 2: And he was also in his mind was also what 317 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: had happened with Marilyn Monroe's autopsy as well, and so 318 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: everything was saved like it was a six hour autopsy. 319 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: And the fact that I think that he was even 320 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: able to secure the autopsy prevented any additional speculation because 321 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: initially the Kennedy family didn't even want an autopsy because 322 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: they're like, we know exactly what killed him. He was shot, right, 323 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 2: and so he helps to convince the family. And then 324 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: part of it is also just logistics too. You know, 325 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 2: Nagucci is talking to his fellow you know, National Corner 326 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 2: colleagues and friends, and then he makes the decision and 327 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: I think this is pivotal not to move the body 328 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: to you know, the coroner's office to the Corner's suite 329 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: to do the autopsy. They actually set up an autopsy 330 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: suite in Good Samaritan Hospital to do the autotopsy, and 331 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 2: so that also shuts down a lot of potential conspiracy theories. 332 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: It is very straightforward for the family, right because you 333 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: can do the autopsy then release the body for burial. 334 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: And that he's pivotal to this. Well, you know, without 335 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: Thomas Negucci, there's a good chance there would be no 336 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 2: autopsy of RFK. 337 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: So he learned from the scrutiny that came under him 338 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: on Marilyn Monroe to try to do did he keep 339 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: this up? Was he able to keep up the quote 340 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: unquote perfect autopsy? Like then, when we're talking about the 341 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: Manson family victims Lecher and Tate. 342 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: It becomes part of his reputation, and you know, people 343 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: still talk about it today, like you know, if you 344 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: read contemporary work and forensic science, they point to the 345 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: autopsy of RFK as what sets right, This is kind 346 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: of the gold standard autopsy. But and this becomes really 347 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: important for Thomas Ningucci because this kind of otopsy becomes 348 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: these very very high standards, begins to undergird the legal system. 349 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 2: And remember, right for the Manson family murders, that the 350 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: charges brought against the various members there was no direct 351 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: evidence tying anyone in many of the instances of people 352 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: who were prosecuted, Charles Manson included, But it was really 353 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: the forensic evidence that led to conviction. The kind of 354 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: meticulous work that Thomas Negucci and you know, the rest 355 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: of the death investigation produced, you know, was the foundation 356 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: of these convictions. And this kind of forensic evidence will, 357 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 2: as time progresses, will become even more important. I don't 358 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: think Thomas Negucci was surprised at all, For example, when 359 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 2: DNA becomes, you know, so essential to this kind of 360 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: investigating work. I think people don't have always a good 361 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: grasp of how important forensic work is. 362 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: Incredibly so he was born in Japan in nineteen twenty seven. 363 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: He's ninety eight. What are the years when he, you know, 364 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: really starts working. Maybe when he gets to LA and 365 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: is he retired. I'm assuming he has to be retired 366 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: at this point. 367 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: Is he still attends medical conferences, he still does research, 368 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: He's still quite active. I just saw him a few 369 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: weeks ago. I took him a copy of the book. 370 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: I unfortunately did not make contact with him. He had 371 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: a very good firewall around him. But I met him 372 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 2: just by chance at my eye surgeon's office. I was 373 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: having eye surgery and my husband had taken me to 374 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: my appointment, and he heard Thomas Nagucci's name being called, 375 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: and he looked up and there he was. Immediately after 376 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: I had eye surgery, I'm in an I hatch and sweatpants, 377 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: and I'm meeting you know, doctor Nagucci and the person 378 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: who helps to take care of them. They invite me 379 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: for coffee. You know, when I tell him, you know, 380 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: I just finished a book about you, and and he's 381 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: been nothing, nothing but gracious. And you know he's kind 382 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: of having, you know, a moment. You know, there's a 383 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: documentary out about him. You know, he was in a musical, right, 384 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: his character like someone had based on some forensic work 385 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: he had done, and so plus my book, and so 386 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 2: it's kind of everything is about Thomas Dagucci at the moment. 387 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, incredibly gracious. But his career, right, the height 388 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: of his career is really in the sixties and seventies. 389 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: But it's not easy. Nobody wanted a Japanese American corner. 390 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: In fact, the medical establishment in Los Angeles worked against him, 391 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 2: said he was not an acceptable person. My favorite thing 392 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 2: is that here the University of Southern California USC was 393 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: absolutely opposed to his appointment as corner because he would 394 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: not be qualified to teach at the medical school at USC. 395 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 2: But they did not realize that he was already teaching. 396 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: But why would he not be qualified. 397 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: Because they did not want someone of Japanese descent. You know, 398 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 2: when he starts his career in the sixties, you're not 399 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: even twenty years out from the incarceration of Japanese Americans. 400 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: And much of that anti Asian sentiment is just because 401 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: the war ends doesn't mean that sentiment disappears, and it 402 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: still has a ripple out effect today. And they were determined, 403 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, the medical schools were determined that they wanted 404 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 2: one of their and it was always a guy. They 405 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: wanted their man in the office because the corner was, 406 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: you know, an influential person. But what saves Thomas Naguchi 407 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: and this is the thing, like I never knew that 408 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: the civil service was so exciting. He ultimately gets the 409 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: LA County Employees Association with thirty five thousand people behind him. 410 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 2: And it's not because they were racially progressive. They might 411 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: have been, I don't know, but there was no way 412 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: that they were going to have someone interfere with the 413 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: civil service process, which means, you know, taking an exam, 414 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: the person with the highest score is advanced for the position. 415 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: They understood very clearly, if you compromise the civil service system, 416 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 2: then that's the end of it. Later, though, you know, 417 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: it's not surprising he does get fired, and you know, 418 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: the motivations are clearly you know, political and racial. And 419 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: what happens, I think, which is amazing, is that the 420 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: Japanese American community mobilizes to rally that Thomas and Gucci 421 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: gets his position back. But they also establish these kind 422 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: of cross racial alliances in LA in the sixties, right, 423 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: they align with Mexican Americans, African Americans. You know, you 424 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: have people involved like Tom Bradley, you have Johnny Cochran involved, 425 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: you know, all before they're really famous. But the idea 426 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: that you know, people of color, you know, come together 427 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: because this is the thing people are so outraged because 428 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: government jobs were sort of the pathway to middle class 429 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: stability for people, and the perception is that these jobs 430 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: are fair, everyone abides by the same rules. This is 431 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: not like private industry or in la even in the sixties, 432 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: you know, people just couldn't live wherever they wanted. There 433 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: was you know, strict racial policing of where people lived 434 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: and country club like all these things. But people deeply 435 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: believe that county and federal and state employment was supposed 436 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: to be fair. And I think this becomes a real 437 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: rat point for people to establish these kinds of alliances. 438 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 2: And so he gets his job back. 439 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: Well, did you ever get the impression from anything that 440 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: you looked at, Did you ever get the impression that 441 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: he had been pressured to change a finding or push 442 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: a finding that he maybe didn't believe it In one 443 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: of these high profile or low profile cases. 444 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: I think definitely they would have liked him to be 445 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: less public, so he really transforms the Coroner's office. Never 446 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: in the history of the Corner's Office did the office 447 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: routinely have press conferences until Thomas Legucci becomes the chief corner. 448 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: And part of the reason that he does, especially when 449 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: he loses his job for the second time, is because 450 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: he can't be controlled, and anything negative about his approach 451 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: I think was ameliorated because he was very much he 452 00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: thought of alcohol as something dangerous. Alcohol compromises people's judge 453 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 2: and can lead to all sorts of, you know, terrible 454 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: things happening. In fact, if I remember correctly, like a 455 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: year ago, the New York Times pointed out, wow, right, 456 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: like there now there are a lot of people who 457 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: think that there should be a warning on all alcohol 458 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: sold in the US that it's dangerous to your health. 459 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: What he does, though, is he was very quick to 460 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: point out, you know, like when William Holden died, he 461 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: died actually right because of a blow to the head, 462 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: but he also pointed out that it was because of 463 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: his drinking. He pointed out how much Natalie Wood had 464 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 2: to drink. And this makes people so mad because these 465 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: are not supposed to be things that you talked about. 466 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: But he was not willing to compromise this. He's like, 467 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: this is science, right, this compromise you know, even if 468 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: you're famous, this compromises your your judgment. I was so 469 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: surprised when I found it in the archive. But he 470 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: made Frank Sinatra so mad that Frank Sinatra had a 471 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: hand delivered note to the Board of Supervisors. Here right, 472 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 2: ran Ellie Kenny complaining about Thomas Nugoe. Something had to 473 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: be done because he had pointed out that Natalie Wood 474 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: had consumed so much alcohol, which certainly compromised, right, her 475 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: judgment and contributed to, you know, most likely contributed to 476 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: her drowning. And then he enrages the screen actors' guild. 477 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is that he was 478 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: very clear that the coroner's office was independent, and that 479 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: doesn't win him a lot of friends at times. 480 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: And if you're looking at somebody like Natalie Wood, who 481 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: again just as a reminder of people who like my kids, 482 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: who don't know who that is, you know, famous actress 483 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: married to Robert Wagner, boy, I talk about a conspiracy, 484 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: a story that can go down conspiracy lane. They're arguing, 485 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, her husband is arguing with Christopher walken over 486 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: presumably Natalie Wood. She ends up in the water. And 487 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: I was telling you this before. I had just read 488 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: an article I think it was in January that were 489 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: quotes from your book saying the title literally was like 490 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: Natalie Wood would not have died had she not been 491 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: wearing that red parka per La corner. And I just thought, 492 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: this woman, who I don't think most people know, is 493 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: still making headlines in a major newspaper. And it is 494 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: the conspiracy part. It absolutely, You've got these three stars. 495 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: You know, she has a hard marriage with Robert Wagner, 496 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: and then this is what ends up happening. And so 497 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: that was amazing that he's making headlines decades and decades 498 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: later on this kind of thing. 499 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. But I think ultimately Thomas Nakichi does 500 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: lose his job for a second time, and he is 501 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: unable to get his teeth not reappointed, and you know, 502 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: because lots of things have changed, she doesn't have the 503 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: same kind of community support. His office also had suffered 504 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: from significant underfunding and mismanagement. He also is beguiled by 505 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: the media. He you know, engages I think Hubri swins 506 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: out at times, and in some ways he loses track 507 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: of the science, and I think when he kind of 508 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: loses that touchstone or that compass, right, things don't go 509 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: well for him. But I think what's amazing, though, is 510 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: that losing his job then dramatically changes his career, and 511 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: I think it serves his better nature. He works at 512 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: you know, USC County General. He ultimately becomes the chief pathologist, 513 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: but he winds up educating several generations of forensic pathologists. 514 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: He turns to research and teaching, and what's amazing is 515 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: that he retires in nineteen ninety nine. In his career 516 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 2: right is just marked with all kinds of strife and conflict, 517 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: you know, with the county, and just some really terrible 518 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: things had happened. And then but he is so changed 519 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: by teaching and doing research that he's able to say 520 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine that working for the county has 521 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: been the best thing that ever happened, Like he loved 522 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: every minute of it. I think that's why for me, 523 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: the story was so compelling to tell, because no one 524 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: wants to write like a true kind biography of like 525 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: I don't know someone who does all the right things 526 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: that that would be like ten pages, and that would 527 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: be the end. But like, because he's so human, he 528 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: makes mistakes. You know, when I was working, you know, 529 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: in the archives or interviewing people, I'm like, oh, no, 530 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: don't say that, don't do that, don't do that, and 531 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: then he does it. I think readers in general, but 532 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 2: Asian American readers, you know, deserve these kinds of stories 533 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: of you know, failure and redemption and how to reinvent 534 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: yourself and that things aren't always easy. And then also 535 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: like Asian American folks were part of the cultural narrative 536 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: as well, and I think that's what Thomas Magucci's stor 537 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: kind of restores to this kind of historical moment. 538 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: I interviewed a woman who wrote a book about the 539 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: rape kit, the first conception of the rape kit, which 540 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: was done by a woman, but it was named after 541 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: a man because they knew that in that time period, 542 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: which I think was early seventies, that that was going 543 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: to make it more successful. And so I was thinking 544 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: about that when you were talking. You know, when he's 545 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: working in the sixties and the seventies and in the eighties, 546 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: how much of the doubt the conspiracy theories around like 547 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: an RFK or Marilyn Monroe. How much that really did 548 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: come down to, you know, he being Japanese American. Was 549 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: it connected specifically to that, or is it this guy 550 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: works for the county. The county's the government, and everybody 551 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: has a stake in killing this person off. 552 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: I think it's both. I think there's definitely the mistrust 553 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 2: of the government as always, and sometimes the government also 554 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 2: kind of stoked these kind of stereotypes that Asian Americans, 555 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: but Japanese in particular, were not trustworthy, could not be 556 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 2: relied on. I mean, these are stereotypes that have existed, 557 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: you know, for a very long time. The one that 558 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: came up right, because being a corner is sort of ghoulish, right, 559 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you're working with the dead, and I think 560 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 2: there were more kind of social prohibitions around it in 561 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies. But at various times people would 562 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: question Thomas Lagucci's objectivity right as a scientist and as 563 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 2: a pathologist, because the idea that Asian Americans, Japanese Americans 564 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: were bloodthirsty and monstrous. I mean, these stereotypes emerged over 565 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: and over when people were talking about Thomas Lagucci. He 566 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: can't escape that and I think it was surprising for 567 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: him because you know, he was a Japanese immigrant. He 568 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: came after the war. He was part of that new 569 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: migration of immigrants called the shiny Si that included students 570 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: and war brides. And you know, he was not incarcerated 571 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: during the war, but his wife was. And he thought somehow, 572 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: I think because he was a very good student, he 573 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: worked very hard that he would be exempt from this 574 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 2: kind of racial vitriol, but he wasn't. And I think 575 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 2: that really has, you know, a deep impact on him 576 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: and how he understands his place in the world. And 577 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 2: it certainly impacted right the shape and trajectory of his career. 578 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: And if you also even just kind of look at 579 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: the early history of pathology it as a medical discipline, 580 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: you know, it's not surprising if you look in the 581 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: fifties and sixties, Right, this was supposed to be a 582 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: time where we've won the war, right, Like it's supposed 583 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 2: to be this golden flowering of technology. But who's tracked 584 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: into pathology more so than any other group. It's primarily 585 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 2: physicians of color because they would never work with the living. 586 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: What's the case or cases we maybe have never heard 587 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: of that you just thought when you read about him, 588 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: you just thought, what, this guy is smart. I mean, 589 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: this was clever what he did. Can you think of those? 590 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the one that really stuck with me 591 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: is Leonard Deadweiler, which happens very early for him in 592 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: sixty six. And Leonard Deadweiler is he's this young man 593 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: who he thinks his wife is going into labor and 594 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 2: she feels like she's going into labor. And they are 595 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: driving to USC County General. They need a general hospital 596 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: and they're leaving South Los Angeles because there is no 597 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 2: hospital there. They're a black couple who have migrated from 598 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: the South and he's speeding and he gets pulled over 599 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 2: and an officer approaches them. It's not exactly one hundred 600 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,439 Speaker 2: percent clear what has happened, but he shot to death 601 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 2: and he dies in his wife's arms. The dead Weiler case, 602 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 2: in particular, for Thomas Nogucci, right, like, the forensic work 603 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: is pretty straightforward, right like, oh, you know the person, 604 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 2: you know, it's horrible if he died of a gunshotmound 605 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 2: and right, and he testifies to this fact, but it 606 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: opens his eyes to the fact that science can't explain 607 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: everything about the legal system and about justice, and that 608 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: this influences him deeply. You know, he wants to know 609 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 2: why then so many black and brown men in Los 610 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 2: Angeles are being shot by the police. Right, and this 611 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 2: is in the nineteen sixties, before Rodney King. This is 612 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: right before you know what shapes most of our ideas 613 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 2: about police violence. Right start much much earlier, and he 614 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 2: works on you know, various tasks, courses, you know, to 615 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 2: bring attention, and then later he'll be involved also around 616 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 2: the use of the chokehold. So you see all these 617 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 2: things that are kind of laid out before these kind 618 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 2: of really big historic moments that we'll see, you know what. 619 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 2: Like Robey King, it makes clear for him that while 620 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 2: science has to be central to death investigation, but there's 621 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 2: also these other things that you know, are not measured 622 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: so easily. And this really kind of has, you know, 623 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 2: an impact on him. 624 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: I wrote a book about a forensic scientist who worked 625 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, and he between probably nineteen fifteen 626 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: and nineteen fifty three when he died, he had resolved 627 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: more than two thousand cases. And I had read, i mean, 628 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: just thousands of his personal letters to colleagues and all 629 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: of that, and the one thing that struck me, and 630 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: this is what I wonder about Thomas Nagucci. The one 631 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: thing that struck me about Oscar Heinrich was what I 632 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: never read ever in any of his letters, was I 633 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: might have been I don't know if this was the 634 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 1: right technique to use. I'm not sure if this technique 635 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: was right, or oh my gosh, they just came out 636 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: with something brand new about blood stain powdern analysis that 637 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,479 Speaker 1: I didn't have back then. Maybe I was wrong about 638 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: the David Lambsome case never and I always was disappointed. 639 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: And instead of me framing that as overly confident or 640 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: you know, somebody who who has a lot of confidence 641 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: in his work in the book, I basically said, this 642 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: is arrogance. You cannot say you haven't made a mistake. 643 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: In two thousand cases, he has certainly sent people to 644 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: death row. And I'm assuming to you know, at the time, 645 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: would have been maybe the electric chair on bad evidence 646 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: that he created. 647 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 2: I think he had less hubris in the early part 648 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 2: of his career, but at kind of the height of 649 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 2: it in the seventies. He's a celebrity in Los Angeles, 650 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: and that's no small thing. The Society page notes that 651 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 2: he was at like a department store shopping for a suit. 652 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,280 Speaker 2: He is like a person in la and he's competing 653 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 2: with Hollywood stars, right Like, so he's a big where 654 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 2: his work becomes compromises when he leaves his track of 655 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,439 Speaker 2: the science number one. The other part too, is that 656 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: he's not a super good manager. The chief corner has, 657 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 2: you know, responsibility for all the science, the research, all that, 658 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: but also the day to day running of the county office, 659 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: like how many staplers do we need to buy? And 660 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,240 Speaker 2: that kind of management. Eventually the job will be split 661 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: into two down down the road, you know, well after 662 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 2: Thomas de Gucci leaves the office. But I think what 663 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 2: is very interesting though he takes his cues, I think 664 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: very much at least he thinks of Theodore Kurfey as 665 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 2: a mentor, and Theodore Curfy is part of that. No apologies, 666 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 2: it's just the way he worked. And there are definitely 667 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 2: times when Thomas Negucci makes mistakes, and sometimes it is 668 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 2: because of mismanagement of the office. Sometimes it's because of 669 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 2: not having complete evidence, right, So they're are mistakes that 670 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 2: are being made. But what he recognizes very early is 671 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 2: that in terms of the publicity around it, that people 672 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 2: have very very short attention spans, and his mistakes are 673 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: never I think, egregious enough to jeopardize legal proceedings, and 674 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: he doesn't really stray from there. But the thing is, 675 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: like it's hindsight as well, like who doesn't make mistakes? 676 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 2: Being the corner was very hard fought and hard won 677 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 2: for him, and there was no way he was going 678 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 2: to give anything to his detractors, write any ammunition. But 679 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 2: what does ultimately, you know, unravel his career is an 680 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 2: investigative journalist at the La Times. He starts investigating him 681 00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 2: and brings all these things to light. 682 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 683 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The 684 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and 685 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,919 Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true 686 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, 687 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already. 688 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer 689 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: is Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. 690 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley Curtis Heath is 691 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga, Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, 692 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 693 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 694 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 1: tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime 695 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold 696 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: more Wicked, email thanks at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. 697 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 698 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: Wicked Words