WEBVTT - Can the Blockchain Have a Good Use Case for Gaming? 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.360 I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:10.400 and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I hard podcast. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:28.000 It's Monday, August eighth. I used to argue, I still 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.720 sometimes argue, that you could divide folks into two categories, 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:39.080 people who play video games and everybody else. Gaming is 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:43.160 bigger in revenue terms worldwide than the film and television 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.760 industries combined. It's also a complex universe that's dealing with 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.120 hard and necessary conversations about things like who benefits from 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.160 those record breaking profits, whose work and whose labor, and 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.400 under what conditions are these profits being made? And as 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.160 always there's tough questions about things like intellectual property. And 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.760 that's before you even add blockchain and n f t 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.479 s into the mix. Joining me now is Bloomberg Reports 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.520 to Cecilia Donastasio, the bigger question is do gamers want 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.400 their teams to look like capitalism. She's going to discuss 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.000 why and how crypto is showing up in video games 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.760 and why much of that gaming community isn't necessarily a 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:29.640 big fan of either technology. Cecilia, thank you so much 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:31.920 for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you so 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.960 much for having me. You are a video games reporter 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.600 at Bloomberg, And once I got over my jealousy of 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.280 the existence of a video games reports at Bloomberg doing 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.639 jobs that I was not doing, I started asking the question, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.960 what is the intersection of crypto and n f t 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.480 s and video games? Yeah, it's a huge question. So 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.080 over the last couple of years, people who have been 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.560 involved in both the video game industry and the world 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.600 of crypto have looked at games and thought to themselves, well, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.320 games have virtual currency and games have virtual items. Crypto 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.560 is a virtual currency and n f t s are 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.720 technology underpinning virtual items. What if these two things were married. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.519 And it's been very interesting to see how that has 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:19.000 and has not played out. How has it played out? Yeah, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.480 So we have seen crypto games for several years. People 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.800 say Crypto Kitties was one of the first ones in 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:30.320 two thousand and seventeen. Basically, um, there are these virtual 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.320 cats that were sort of symbolic of real life value 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.280 through crypto. And one of the things that was pretty 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.800 interesting with crypto Kitties was that despite the fact that 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.680 one pet might self for a hundred thousand dollars, the 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.160 equivalent of that in Crypto, players really bled out of 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.480 Crypto Kitties because, and we've seen this several times since then, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.799 there was an increasing division between richer players who had 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.720 enough money to buy high value assets early on in 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:02.399 the game, high volume, high value cats, calling cats assets 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:08.160 people too. Yeah, and these poorer players, though, who also, um, 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.959 who were not able to kind of scale the ladder 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.440 and have as much fun with the game. I want 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.440 to kind of go into a little bit more detail 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.040 here because I think it's fair to say we both 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.400 play a reasonable amount of video games, or perhaps an 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:27.760 unreasonable amount. I was about it depends on your perspective really, um. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:29.960 And one of the things about video games is, you 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.120 know a lot of them involve some kind of grind, right, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:38.000 some kind of not fun, repetitive activity that you do 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.680 over and over again in order to get the loots 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:42.480 that lets you buy the swords, that lets you do 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.960 the thing that you want to do. With Crypto, there's 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.600 a dynamic in there that is also that also already 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.000 exists in traditional video games, which is the idea of 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.320 or you could spend money and buy the sword and 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.760 skip the grind. So you know, there's there's an existing 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.640 dynamic of the haves and the have nots in traditional 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.080 video games. Are you saying that it's it's worse in 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.120 crypto or that it's like more aggressive in some way. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.960 I love this question because I think that a lot 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.880 of gamers feel that are attracted to video games because 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.680 of this egalitarian element where you know, everyone bought the game. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.120 People you know, go in with various skill levels, but 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.640 you know, if you spend enough time trying to grind 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.320 for gold in World of Warcraft, you're gonna get golden 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.960 in World of Warcraft, regardless of how how good you 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.960 are at the actual fighting in the game a lot 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.400 of the time. Um Crypto is a little bit different 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.560 because you do need that initial financial buy in a 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.800 lot of the time. So while there are people who 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.440 play Axie Infinity who are able to grind their way 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:50.200 into more and more valuable axes, people who start out 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.279 with a lot of money upfront do automatically have a 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.080 head start. But I think it's worth noting that people 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.240 have been purchasing high value assets in selling them inside 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.680 of video games for like a decade. So if that 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:07.719 is the case, and we we both know that to 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.200 be true, I will not confess which online video games 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:12.599 I may have spent too much time and im possibly 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.600 too much money and in a prior life, Why then, 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.359 do we need things like blockchain based economies and games. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.000 What are the arguments that these developers are making. There 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.280 are some really interesting arguments out there that you know, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.520 because micro transactions have become such a prominent business model 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.840 for video games, particularly ones where there's no initial buy 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.479 in free to play, you know, free to play exactly. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.279 Players love these in game cosmetics. I too, am unwilling 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.760 to admit um what games I spend what money in 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.440 in this regard. But ultimately there's this argument that you know, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.359 you don't really own your those cosmetics. You don't own 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.720 the really awesome dragon mount in, for example, of Final 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.599 Fantasy four tea, and that you might have, for example, 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.720 spent some money on in this store. So if you know, 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.520 Square Annex the publisher which one day say all right, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.640 we're done here with this game, like your mount disappears 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:14.599 even though you spent fifteen dollars, which has happened. Yes. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.080 The idea of the blockchain technology is that it would 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.760 allow you to own the assets somehow, and maybe you 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.760 could even transfer that asset into another game. So if 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.440 you have your cool dragon mountain Final Fantasy fourteen, maybe 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.839 you could play with it in World of Warcraft. I 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.960 have also seen some game developers, and particularly people who 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.839 draw assets for video games, pulling their hair out on 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.840 Twitter over this argument, because God, what an ownerous thing 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:50.279 to do to redraw everything. Let's just take a completely 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.599 not related to something I may have done in my 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.599 own life example, and let's say you had spent some 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:01.440 large amount of time building an extravagant apartment complex in 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:07.040 you know the sims on desktop PC, and later in 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.200 life you spent some similarly extravagant amount of time customizing 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:16.160 your island on animal crossing on switch. In the idealized 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.080 version of the world pitched by these pro blockchain FLU 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.320 and f T developers, I would be able to move 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.920 to buy that real estate and move it between games. Right, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.600 Nothing should stop me from being able to move these 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.200 things between each other. In reality, those are totally different platforms, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.320 they're totally different game publishers, they're totally different art styles, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:43.160 they're completely different ecosystems. There's just no practical way that's possible. Yes, 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:48.160 and there is an argument that some gamers, do you 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.760 want things that they work for in video games since 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:56.240 they grind for it to be redeemable for real life money, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.280 and so I could sell my island, so you could 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:03.440 sell your eye end, and there is the argument that 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:09.960 that end is worth those complicated means. I haven't seen, however, 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.960 a lot of gamers be particularly excited about that. There 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.120 have been big publishers who have launched initiatives along those 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.160 lines that have received um as. My colleague Jason Shire 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.480 puts it more vitriol than anything he's seen in the 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.760 games industry since he started reporting on it, which is 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:34.120 a very high bar. So here's here's the thing about that, though. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:41.040 If you do something that is hard, labor intensive, time consuming, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.480 and then you make money at the end, typically that 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:50.760 is considered work. And I played video games to be 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:55.160 the opposite of work. I don't want to monetize my 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.480 video gaming because then it becomes a job. And if 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.840 I'm in an escapist universe US in which I'm spending 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.280 dozens of hours on a building houses, it's because I'm 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.560 not trying to work. So what is going on with 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.640 this mechanic here where everything is just becoming label? That's 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.320 a really awesome thing to bring up. You know. I 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.160 think it's worth noting that there are a lot of 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.120 gamers out there who do approach video games very seriously 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:20.880 as if they were work. When I go on a 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.680 raid in Final Fantasy fourteen and I'm with seven of 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.040 my friends and we're trying to be the same fight, 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:36.520 you know, like eighty times, that does require a kind 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.079 of like work approach, but it's for fun. I think 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:44.280 you're right, and people really do attach monetary compensation to 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.280 the idea of labor. I think the bigger question here 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.679 isn't do gamers want to approach their games as if 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.280 their jobs, because I think a lot of gamers really do. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.360 The bigger question is do gamers want their games to 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.640 look like capitalism? There are in these block handing games 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.360 and particularly Acts in Affinity, there have been these guilds 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.920 that have sort of spawned where players who have more 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.880 resources and higher value axes or assets are able to 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.880 farm out the actual gameplay of these games. Two players 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.200 who don't have as many monetary resources, particularly in countries 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.839 like the Philippines that were hit quite hard by the pandemic, 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:31.560 and those players kind of sharecropper style will increase the 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:36.840 value of the richer players assets by playing video games. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.280 And I think, you know, that's a different kind of 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:44.760 work relationship that is exacerbated by the fact that do 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.160 you think that this is a fact that a lot 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.040 of these blockchain based games right now aren't very fun yet. 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.520 We'll be right back with more on video games from 0:10:51.559 --> 0:11:02.880 Bloomberg Report to Cecilia Denistasu. I want to go back 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.400 to something that you said earlier about you know, folks, 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.839 we've been doing this for a long time. So Second Life, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.880 which is you know, much like much like Eve, one 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.240 of the very earliest online spaces. The folks who take 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.200 Second Life very seriously, and there's still a lot of them, 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.000 would argue it was never really a game. It was 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:27.199 much more metaversey than necessarily video gaming. But you interviewed 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.199 there the executive chairman of Linden Labs, which is the 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.640 developer of Second Life, for the a tech summit hosted 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.920 by Bloomberg in San Francisco, and he was, you know, 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.720 less than convinced that blockchain and crypto had a role 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.440 not even justin video games, but also in the metaverse. 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.240 I'm just gonna play that clip really quickly, right the 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.960 whole point of blockchain is that everybody knows everything. It's 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.080 a huge word document. Um So, if you if you 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.000 talk about an n f T and you put that 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.679 by definition and mt is on the blockchain, we've got 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.119 two point two billion items we transact. We can transact 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.000 in a one fifty of a penny that does not 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.120 work on the blockchain. So, and the other thing about 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.960 blockchain is it is it dovetails with crypto, which we've 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.240 talked in the past, which, as you know, i'll use 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.400 the word because I ask permission, is the apocalypse and so, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:23.160 um So when I start thinking about metaverse, blockchain, crypto, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.719 I see that as a future, but I think it's 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.360 as much of a risk as it is a positive. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.880 I do want to just talk about that idea of 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.800 the metaverse a little bit more because when Microsoft announced 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.640 that it was going to try to buy Activision Blizzard, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.920 one of the very first things that they said was like, 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:48.120 this is a big play on the metaverse. And you're like, how, like, 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.640 what is what is the relationship from your perspective between 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.400 video games and the metaverse, even if you ignore n 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.679 f t s and crypto. That's a great question. So 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.240 we have seen articles for publications like the New York 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.800 Times that will for two metaverse and virtual world kind 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.400 of interchangeably. There was, um notably, a New York Times 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.680 article in which two individuals got married in a so 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.000 called metaverse. Never mind those individuals happened to work for 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:15.520 the company. It was a real estate company that created 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.319 the virtual world. Details. It's in details, you know. This 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.959 really great book by venture capitalist named Matthew Ball came 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.439 out just called The Metaverse, and he has the definition 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:29.200 of like the most a metaverse is a persistent virtual 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.240 world that is connected to other virtual spaces, that has 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:38.400 an economy, and also is able to be kind of 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.440 immersed in in some way. So whether that's through you know, 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.319 operating an avatar, or maybe we're walking around it in 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.720 virtual reality. That's that's how he defines a metaverse. And 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.880 by that definition, there is no metaverse. Not yet. Tech 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.160 companies don't really aren't really making moves to kind of 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.080 partner with each other as equals, to kind of hitch 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:03.680 their different virtual spaces together, or what we see more 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.760 of is, of course, consolidation, one big tech company kind 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.560 of absorbing a smaller one. Metaverse right now is a 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.120 way for a lot of tech companies to describe their 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:17.560 sprawl of digital and physical apps, hardware that they used 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.960 to construct their virtual spaces, and their technological products that 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.480 they sell. And I would be really excited to see 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.360 if that ends up advancing into a true metaverse at 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.040 any point in any future, hopefully not a dystopian one, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.560 just as a as a closing thought, games that get 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.960 described as metaverses are often like Fortnite, which has you know, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.520 the consumables and the cosmetics that you described. You can 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.560 buy skins, you can buy suits, you can buy cool stuff, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.160 you can create spaces, you can have a persistent character 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.080 that represents you, and then you could like party and 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:56.280 listen to real world DJs, um Minecraft Roadblocks similar sorts 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.160 of things, and those are also often the games that 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.080 are held up as well. What if you could take 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.240 your Fortnite outfit or the things you made in micraft 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.320 or roadblocks and you know, import those into other places. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.240 What I'm hearing from you is those might have metaverse 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.800 like elements, but they don't fully fit the description yet, 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.920 they're not like fully realized entities in that way. Absolutely. Actually, 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.760 Minecraft developers came out really recently to say that they 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.960 will not be allowing n f t s in in 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.800 that game at all. That is a metaverse element to it, 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:33.640 the connecting video games in virtual worlds through assets that 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.960 you can kind of share for them. I would be 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.720 more curious to see. And this is more of like 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.040 this is more of a vestige of a truer metaverse. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.920 Whether people will be able to bring avatars across different 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.240 video game properties. That feels a little bit unlikely, just 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.640 considering the fact that everything from art styles to video 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.240 game engines that provide the kind of software infrastructure for 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:04.359 video games to exist aren't necessarily synonymous between these properties. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.000 But you know, people really believe in this thing. True. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.400 Great place to stop. Thank you so much, Ceilia, thank 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.960 you for having me on the next episode of Bloomberg. 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.840 Crypto venture capitalists and certain people in the music industry 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.120 seem to be enthusiastic about the potential for artists to 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.320 benefit from crypto technologies like the blockchain and n f 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:31.360 t s, but there isn't universal agreement, especially among musicians themselves, 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.880 that any of this is necessarily a good idea. Bloomberg reports. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.320 Lucas Shore will join me from Los Angeles as we 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:43.240 continue our discussion about the decentralization of the music industry. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.200 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.200 I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.560 visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.160 you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.200 suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:10.480 or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.879 producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our senior 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.520 producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Mohammed Farup. Our 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.960 producer is Sharon Barrier. Our associate producers are Zanam Sidiki, 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.359 Thai Buffalo and Moses and um Desta wonder At is 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:33.440 our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Stacy Maria Shmaal. 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:34.680 We'll be back tomorrow.