1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I hard podcast. 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: It's Monday, August eighth. I used to argue, I still 4 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: sometimes argue, that you could divide folks into two categories, 5 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: people who play video games and everybody else. Gaming is 6 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: bigger in revenue terms worldwide than the film and television 7 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: industries combined. It's also a complex universe that's dealing with 8 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: hard and necessary conversations about things like who benefits from 9 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: those record breaking profits, whose work and whose labor, and 10 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: under what conditions are these profits being made? And as 11 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: always there's tough questions about things like intellectual property. And 12 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: that's before you even add blockchain and n f t 13 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: s into the mix. Joining me now is Bloomberg Reports 14 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: to Cecilia Donastasio, the bigger question is do gamers want 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: their teams to look like capitalism. She's going to discuss 16 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: why and how crypto is showing up in video games 17 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: and why much of that gaming community isn't necessarily a 18 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: big fan of either technology. Cecilia, thank you so much 19 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you so 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: much for having me. You are a video games reporter 21 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg, And once I got over my jealousy of 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: the existence of a video games reports at Bloomberg doing 23 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,639 Speaker 1: jobs that I was not doing, I started asking the question, 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: what is the intersection of crypto and n f t 25 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: s and video games? Yeah, it's a huge question. So 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: over the last couple of years, people who have been 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: involved in both the video game industry and the world 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: of crypto have looked at games and thought to themselves, well, 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: games have virtual currency and games have virtual items. Crypto 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: is a virtual currency and n f t s are 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: technology underpinning virtual items. What if these two things were married. 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: And it's been very interesting to see how that has 33 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: and has not played out. How has it played out? Yeah, 34 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: So we have seen crypto games for several years. People 35 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: say Crypto Kitties was one of the first ones in 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen. Basically, um, there are these virtual 37 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: cats that were sort of symbolic of real life value 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: through crypto. And one of the things that was pretty 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: interesting with crypto Kitties was that despite the fact that 40 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: one pet might self for a hundred thousand dollars, the 41 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: equivalent of that in Crypto, players really bled out of 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: Crypto Kitties because, and we've seen this several times since then, 43 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: there was an increasing division between richer players who had 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: enough money to buy high value assets early on in 45 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: the game, high volume, high value cats, calling cats assets 46 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: people too. Yeah, and these poorer players, though, who also, um, 47 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: who were not able to kind of scale the ladder 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: and have as much fun with the game. I want 49 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: to kind of go into a little bit more detail 50 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: here because I think it's fair to say we both 51 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: play a reasonable amount of video games, or perhaps an 52 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: unreasonable amount. I was about it depends on your perspective really, um. 53 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: And one of the things about video games is, you 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: know a lot of them involve some kind of grind, right, 55 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: some kind of not fun, repetitive activity that you do 56 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: over and over again in order to get the loots 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: that lets you buy the swords, that lets you do 58 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: the thing that you want to do. With Crypto, there's 59 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: a dynamic in there that is also that also already 60 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: exists in traditional video games, which is the idea of 61 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: or you could spend money and buy the sword and 62 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: skip the grind. So you know, there's there's an existing 63 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: dynamic of the haves and the have nots in traditional 64 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: video games. Are you saying that it's it's worse in 65 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: crypto or that it's like more aggressive in some way. 66 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: I love this question because I think that a lot 67 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: of gamers feel that are attracted to video games because 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: of this egalitarian element where you know, everyone bought the game. 69 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: People you know, go in with various skill levels, but 70 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: you know, if you spend enough time trying to grind 71 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: for gold in World of Warcraft, you're gonna get golden 72 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: in World of Warcraft, regardless of how how good you 73 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: are at the actual fighting in the game a lot 74 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: of the time. Um Crypto is a little bit different 75 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: because you do need that initial financial buy in a 76 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: lot of the time. So while there are people who 77 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: play Axie Infinity who are able to grind their way 78 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: into more and more valuable axes, people who start out 79 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: with a lot of money upfront do automatically have a 80 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: head start. But I think it's worth noting that people 81 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: have been purchasing high value assets in selling them inside 82 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: of video games for like a decade. So if that 83 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: is the case, and we we both know that to 84 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: be true, I will not confess which online video games 85 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: I may have spent too much time and im possibly 86 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: too much money and in a prior life, Why then, 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: do we need things like blockchain based economies and games. 88 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: What are the arguments that these developers are making. There 89 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: are some really interesting arguments out there that you know, 90 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: because micro transactions have become such a prominent business model 91 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: for video games, particularly ones where there's no initial buy 92 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: in free to play, you know, free to play exactly. 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: Players love these in game cosmetics. I too, am unwilling 94 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: to admit um what games I spend what money in 95 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: in this regard. But ultimately there's this argument that you know, 96 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: you don't really own your those cosmetics. You don't own 97 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: the really awesome dragon mount in, for example, of Final 98 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: Fantasy four tea, and that you might have, for example, 99 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: spent some money on in this store. So if you know, 100 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: Square Annex the publisher which one day say all right, 101 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: we're done here with this game, like your mount disappears 102 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: even though you spent fifteen dollars, which has happened. Yes. 103 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: The idea of the blockchain technology is that it would 104 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: allow you to own the assets somehow, and maybe you 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: could even transfer that asset into another game. So if 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: you have your cool dragon mountain Final Fantasy fourteen, maybe 107 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: you could play with it in World of Warcraft. I 108 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: have also seen some game developers, and particularly people who 109 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: draw assets for video games, pulling their hair out on 110 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: Twitter over this argument, because God, what an ownerous thing 111 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: to do to redraw everything. Let's just take a completely 112 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: not related to something I may have done in my 113 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: own life example, and let's say you had spent some 114 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: large amount of time building an extravagant apartment complex in 115 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: you know the sims on desktop PC, and later in 116 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: life you spent some similarly extravagant amount of time customizing 117 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: your island on animal crossing on switch. In the idealized 118 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: version of the world pitched by these pro blockchain FLU 119 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: and f T developers, I would be able to move 120 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: to buy that real estate and move it between games. Right, 121 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: Nothing should stop me from being able to move these 122 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: things between each other. In reality, those are totally different platforms, 123 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: they're totally different game publishers, they're totally different art styles, 124 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: they're completely different ecosystems. There's just no practical way that's possible. Yes, 125 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: and there is an argument that some gamers, do you 126 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: want things that they work for in video games since 127 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: they grind for it to be redeemable for real life money, 128 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: and so I could sell my island, so you could 129 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: sell your eye end, and there is the argument that 130 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: that end is worth those complicated means. I haven't seen, however, 131 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: a lot of gamers be particularly excited about that. There 132 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: have been big publishers who have launched initiatives along those 133 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: lines that have received um as. My colleague Jason Shire 134 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: puts it more vitriol than anything he's seen in the 135 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: games industry since he started reporting on it, which is 136 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: a very high bar. So here's here's the thing about that, though. 137 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: If you do something that is hard, labor intensive, time consuming, 138 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: and then you make money at the end, typically that 139 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: is considered work. And I played video games to be 140 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: the opposite of work. I don't want to monetize my 141 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: video gaming because then it becomes a job. And if 142 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: I'm in an escapist universe US in which I'm spending 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: dozens of hours on a building houses, it's because I'm 144 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: not trying to work. So what is going on with 145 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: this mechanic here where everything is just becoming label? That's 146 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: a really awesome thing to bring up. You know. I 147 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: think it's worth noting that there are a lot of 148 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: gamers out there who do approach video games very seriously 149 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: as if they were work. When I go on a 150 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: raid in Final Fantasy fourteen and I'm with seven of 151 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: my friends and we're trying to be the same fight, 152 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, like eighty times, that does require a kind 153 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: of like work approach, but it's for fun. I think 154 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: you're right, and people really do attach monetary compensation to 155 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: the idea of labor. I think the bigger question here 156 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: isn't do gamers want to approach their games as if 157 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: their jobs, because I think a lot of gamers really do. 158 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: The bigger question is do gamers want their games to 159 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: look like capitalism? There are in these block handing games 160 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: and particularly Acts in Affinity, there have been these guilds 161 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: that have sort of spawned where players who have more 162 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: resources and higher value axes or assets are able to 163 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: farm out the actual gameplay of these games. Two players 164 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: who don't have as many monetary resources, particularly in countries 165 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: like the Philippines that were hit quite hard by the pandemic, 166 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: and those players kind of sharecropper style will increase the 167 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: value of the richer players assets by playing video games. 168 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, that's a different kind of 169 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: work relationship that is exacerbated by the fact that do 170 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: you think that this is a fact that a lot 171 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: of these blockchain based games right now aren't very fun yet. 172 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more on video games from 173 00:10:51,559 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Report to Cecilia Denistasu. I want to go back 174 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: to something that you said earlier about you know, folks, 175 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: we've been doing this for a long time. So Second Life, 176 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: which is you know, much like much like Eve, one 177 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: of the very earliest online spaces. The folks who take 178 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: Second Life very seriously, and there's still a lot of them, 179 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: would argue it was never really a game. It was 180 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: much more metaversey than necessarily video gaming. But you interviewed 181 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: there the executive chairman of Linden Labs, which is the 182 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: developer of Second Life, for the a tech summit hosted 183 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: by Bloomberg in San Francisco, and he was, you know, 184 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: less than convinced that blockchain and crypto had a role 185 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: not even justin video games, but also in the metaverse. 186 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna play that clip really quickly, right the 187 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: whole point of blockchain is that everybody knows everything. It's 188 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: a huge word document. Um So, if you if you 189 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: talk about an n f T and you put that 190 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: by definition and mt is on the blockchain, we've got 191 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,119 Speaker 1: two point two billion items we transact. We can transact 192 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: in a one fifty of a penny that does not 193 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: work on the blockchain. So, and the other thing about 194 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: blockchain is it is it dovetails with crypto, which we've 195 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: talked in the past, which, as you know, i'll use 196 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: the word because I ask permission, is the apocalypse and so, 197 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: um So when I start thinking about metaverse, blockchain, crypto, 198 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 1: I see that as a future, but I think it's 199 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: as much of a risk as it is a positive. 200 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: I do want to just talk about that idea of 201 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: the metaverse a little bit more because when Microsoft announced 202 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: that it was going to try to buy Activision Blizzard, 203 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: one of the very first things that they said was like, 204 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: this is a big play on the metaverse. And you're like, how, like, 205 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: what is what is the relationship from your perspective between 206 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: video games and the metaverse, even if you ignore n 207 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: f t s and crypto. That's a great question. So 208 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: we have seen articles for publications like the New York 209 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Times that will for two metaverse and virtual world kind 210 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: of interchangeably. There was, um notably, a New York Times 211 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: article in which two individuals got married in a so 212 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: called metaverse. Never mind those individuals happened to work for 213 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: the company. It was a real estate company that created 214 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: the virtual world. Details. It's in details, you know. This 215 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: really great book by venture capitalist named Matthew Ball came 216 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: out just called The Metaverse, and he has the definition 217 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: of like the most a metaverse is a persistent virtual 218 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: world that is connected to other virtual spaces, that has 219 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: an economy, and also is able to be kind of 220 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: immersed in in some way. So whether that's through you know, 221 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: operating an avatar, or maybe we're walking around it in 222 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: virtual reality. That's that's how he defines a metaverse. And 223 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: by that definition, there is no metaverse. Not yet. Tech 224 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: companies don't really aren't really making moves to kind of 225 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: partner with each other as equals, to kind of hitch 226 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: their different virtual spaces together, or what we see more 227 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: of is, of course, consolidation, one big tech company kind 228 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: of absorbing a smaller one. Metaverse right now is a 229 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: way for a lot of tech companies to describe their 230 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: sprawl of digital and physical apps, hardware that they used 231 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: to construct their virtual spaces, and their technological products that 232 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: they sell. And I would be really excited to see 233 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: if that ends up advancing into a true metaverse at 234 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: any point in any future, hopefully not a dystopian one, 235 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: just as a as a closing thought, games that get 236 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: described as metaverses are often like Fortnite, which has you know, 237 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: the consumables and the cosmetics that you described. You can 238 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: buy skins, you can buy suits, you can buy cool stuff, 239 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: you can create spaces, you can have a persistent character 240 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: that represents you, and then you could like party and 241 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: listen to real world DJs, um Minecraft Roadblocks similar sorts 242 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: of things, and those are also often the games that 243 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: are held up as well. What if you could take 244 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: your Fortnite outfit or the things you made in micraft 245 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: or roadblocks and you know, import those into other places. 246 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: What I'm hearing from you is those might have metaverse 247 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: like elements, but they don't fully fit the description yet, 248 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: they're not like fully realized entities in that way. Absolutely. Actually, 249 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: Minecraft developers came out really recently to say that they 250 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: will not be allowing n f t s in in 251 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: that game at all. That is a metaverse element to it, 252 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: the connecting video games in virtual worlds through assets that 253 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: you can kind of share for them. I would be 254 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: more curious to see. And this is more of like 255 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: this is more of a vestige of a truer metaverse. 256 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: Whether people will be able to bring avatars across different 257 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: video game properties. That feels a little bit unlikely, just 258 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: considering the fact that everything from art styles to video 259 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: game engines that provide the kind of software infrastructure for 260 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:04,359 Speaker 1: video games to exist aren't necessarily synonymous between these properties. 261 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: But you know, people really believe in this thing. True. 262 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: Great place to stop. Thank you so much, Ceilia, thank 263 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: you for having me on the next episode of Bloomberg. 264 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: Crypto venture capitalists and certain people in the music industry 265 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: seem to be enthusiastic about the potential for artists to 266 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: benefit from crypto technologies like the blockchain and n f 267 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: t s, but there isn't universal agreement, especially among musicians themselves, 268 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: that any of this is necessarily a good idea. Bloomberg reports. 269 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: Lucas Shore will join me from Los Angeles as we 270 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: continue our discussion about the decentralization of the music industry. 271 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and 272 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, 273 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 274 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or 275 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net 276 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising 277 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our senior 278 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Mohammed Farup. Our 279 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: producer is Sharon Barrier. Our associate producers are Zanam Sidiki, 280 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: Thai Buffalo and Moses and um Desta wonder At is 281 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Stacy Maria Shmaal. 282 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow.