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Speaker 1: Hey, hey, va fam, Welcome to Brown Ambition. I have

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Speaker 1: a very special guest today and I just want to

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Speaker 1: dive right into this conversation. Let me first do a

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Speaker 1: proper introduction for today's guest. Her name is I'm Gonna Altai.

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Speaker 1: She's an executive coach in a now best selling and

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Speaker 1: celebrated author. I'm Gonna has coached Olympians, fortune one hundred

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Speaker 1: leaders and founders, and shows us in this book. Her

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Speaker 1: new book, The Ambition Trap, how to reconnect with ambition

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Speaker 1: that's rooted in purpose instead of exhaustion. In her book

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Speaker 1: again The Ambition Trap, if you haven't gotten your copy,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're waiting for. It has the

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Speaker 1: most gorgeous, beautiful what to be calling this like kind

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Speaker 1: of a sunset tie dye moment kind of cover. I

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Speaker 1: love the art, I love the colors in this book,

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Speaker 1: which I'm going to go ahead and say it's like

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Speaker 1: the anti hustle guide for anyone who's sick of chasing

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Speaker 1: success and in the process, as a byproduct of that

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Speaker 1: that that's cess chasing has to meet, we end up

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Speaker 1: burnt out, feeling unfulfilled, chasing our own tale, which I

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Speaker 1: can relate to so deeply, so deeply, so deeply, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so honored to have Amana here today. She's going

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Speaker 1: to share how her own journey from burnout to breakthrough

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Speaker 1: created this guide and how she's come up with practical

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Speaker 1: tools for making ambition a source of joy not stress.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Brown Ambition, Omana. I'm so happy to have

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Speaker 1: you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I had my

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Speaker 2: fan girl moment before we hit record. I have been

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Speaker 2: a long point listener of the show.

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Speaker 1: Love your work.

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Speaker 2: So happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about the title. When did you

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Speaker 1: have the title for the book? Was that the title

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Speaker 1: from the beginning?

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Speaker 2: That was the title from the beginning, And I don't

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Speaker 2: mean to be annoying, but it dropped in on my

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Speaker 2: meditation cushion. Now, the subtitle was another story. We probably

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Speaker 2: had like fifty versions of the subtitle, but the.

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Speaker 1: Title started on subtitles. I know, I'm on, I'm not

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Speaker 1: about fifty. I think I probably brainstormed about fifty subtitles.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even give your as any You need to

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Speaker 1: shine on the subtitle the ambition trap, how to stop

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Speaker 1: chasing and start living? There you go. That came to

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Speaker 1: you on the meditation pillow.

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Speaker 2: The ambition trap did how to stop chasing and start

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Speaker 2: living was a little bit of a different process, okay.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, was that something that you had

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Speaker 1: experienced or were as a coach yourself and you know

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Speaker 1: coaching leaders. Was it just something that you were confronted

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Speaker 1: with time and time again, like helping people work through

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Speaker 1: their own version of the ambition trap.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I actually feel like my whole life was a

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Speaker 2: bit of a walking ambition trap. So I am the

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Speaker 2: child of immigrants and I was told to just like

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Speaker 2: put your head down, work really hard. And I took

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Speaker 2: a lot of cues from my dad. So my dad

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Speaker 2: is a brown man named Mohammad, and you know, was

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Speaker 2: trying to find his place in the world of work.

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Speaker 2: And I just noticed him struggling so much, and I

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Speaker 2: just picked up a lot of cues from him. And

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Speaker 2: I carried a lot of that programming into the workplace,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it served me until it didn't serve me.

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Speaker 2: I had this like ice on paper life, and six

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Speaker 2: years into my marketing career, I burned out and developed

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Speaker 2: two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in this really dramatic

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Speaker 2: fashion where I'd started to feel really sick, and I'd

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Speaker 2: been to seven different doctors, because if you're a person

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Speaker 2: of color, medical gas lighting is super real. And it

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Speaker 2: was the seventh doctor who called me on a Friday

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Speaker 2: while I'm going to work and she says, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: if you don't go to the hospital today instead of

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Speaker 2: going to work, you will be days away from multiple

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Speaker 2: organ failure. So I had gotten so sick. My relationship

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Speaker 2: to success and ambition was so dysfunctional that it was

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Speaker 2: almost taking me out for good. And so that was

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Speaker 2: the beginning of it. That was the beginning of me

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Speaker 2: realizing that I needed to renegotiate, reevaluate my relationship to

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Speaker 2: success and ambition. And then as I became a coach,

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Speaker 2: I just had a front row seat to all of

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Speaker 2: these people that were highly ambitious but navigating very similar

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Speaker 2: traps to me. And then it was really interesting. It

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Speaker 2: all kind of came to this boiling point. In twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: at the head of the Social Justice uprisings, I was

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Speaker 2: collaborating with this organization called Inspired Justice, where I was

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Speaker 2: doing social impact empowerment coaching, and I ended up coaching

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Speaker 2: a handful of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled, and

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Speaker 2: it was a really interesting experience. My book is not

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Speaker 2: about cancel culture. That's a whole other thing. But what

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Speaker 2: I was noticing was these patterns alive in these folks

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Speaker 2: that had also been alive in my life and had

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Speaker 2: been alive in my other clients' lives, and I'd seen

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Speaker 2: in my dad. And I was like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: a conversation that I really need to dig deeper into.

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Speaker 2: And that's where the ambition framework.

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Speaker 1: Came from, celebrity girl bosses who had been canceled coaching

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Speaker 1: them on how to uncancel themselves or basically like where

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Speaker 1: to take their businesses from there.

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Speaker 2: Know how to make amends and how to lead differently

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Speaker 2: and how to show up in the world differently.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, were they receptive to that? I mean they

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Speaker 1: must be, they were doing the coaching, but they.

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Speaker 2: Were receptive to it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you're going to take me down a path. I

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Speaker 1: don't think. Let's focus on the book. I'm just like,

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Speaker 1: ooh what.

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Speaker 2: People hear that and then they want to go down

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Speaker 2: that path, and you know, it's definitely a path.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, Okay for another time, that's path for like,

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Speaker 1: let's get some cocktails, you know, get the kids away,

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Speaker 1: all right. It's interesting that, you know, I hear what

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Speaker 1: you're saying about watching your dad. I think in my career,

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Speaker 1: I'm fine. I'm starting to realize how much of an

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Speaker 1: influence my own dad had on my relationship to ambition.

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Speaker 1: He's very much you know, you know, a black man

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Speaker 1: grew up in the Deep South, and I have a

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Speaker 1: lot of like complex feelings about him and his in

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Speaker 1: his career because I do feel like in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways he was he underrealized or wasn't able to

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Speaker 1: like realize his own ambitions for himself. And so when

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Speaker 1: I approached my career, I sort of looked at it like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do all the things I say I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do, and I'm going to like fulfill those

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Speaker 1: ambitions and goals for them for myself. And now that

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, at this stage, you know, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I've been five years into entrepreneurship kind of full time,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I have I now, I'm finding this fear

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Speaker 1: that I'm going to end up like that as well,

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Speaker 1: that it won't like I won't get there, do you

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Speaker 1: like do you talk about that in the book. I

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Speaker 1: know that's about like the trap, but is that one

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Speaker 1: of the traps, Like this feeling of like we're on

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Speaker 1: this path and all of a sudden there's this fear

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Speaker 1: that what if this doesn't work out? Yes, what if

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Speaker 1: I fail?

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Speaker 2: This is so real, right, But I think failure is

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Speaker 2: part of the process. Obviously as people of color, as

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Speaker 2: a black woman, you're held to completely different standards, and

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Speaker 2: so we also have to be really conscious of the

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Speaker 2: like telling us to feel fast and often I think

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Speaker 2: can be problematic sometimes. But I think that this idea

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Speaker 2: of like, my biggest fear in life is my unrealized potential, right,

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Speaker 2: and so I sit.

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Speaker 1: With that all. That's what I was trying to say.

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Speaker 1: That's a much more eloquent and succinct way of saying it.

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Speaker 2: But I think that when we live from that place, right,

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Speaker 2: it's I think it's a bit of a fight or

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Speaker 2: flight thought. Well it is for me anyway, right, And

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Speaker 2: so but it does elucidate the trap because you know,

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Speaker 2: so many of us are told to take up space

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Speaker 2: and to speak truth to power, and when we do,

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Speaker 2: we're told that our stories aren't we real or we're

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Speaker 2: told to throw our hats in the ring. And we're

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Speaker 2: told we're both like too much and not enough at

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Speaker 2: the very same time. And this is the trap, right that,

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Speaker 2: like we could somehow be both too much and not enough,

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Speaker 2: and then we try to outwork a broken system. And

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Speaker 2: so the ambition trap and overcoming the ambition trap is

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Speaker 2: about living into purposeful ambition versus painful ambition. So I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you what I mean by that. So painful ambition

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Speaker 2: is driven by the core wounds, and it has a

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Speaker 2: couple of signatures. So there are five core wounds. They

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Speaker 2: are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And as a

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Speaker 2: result of each of the wounds, we are a corresponding mask.

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Speaker 2: So if we have a betrayal wound, the mask we

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Speaker 2: were as control. If we have an injustice wound, the

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Speaker 2: mask we wear as rigidity or perfection. And then you

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Speaker 2: can imagine that if we build our ambitions upon that,

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Speaker 2: it can be a bit of a house of cards.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I did, right, That's kind of like

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Speaker 2: how my life came tumbling down, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: true for a lot of the people that I've coached

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Speaker 2: as well. And so painful ambition the signatures are moving

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Speaker 2: at unsustainable urgency black and white either or thinking hyper

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Speaker 2: focus on individualism versus collaboration, instrumentalizing our minds and bodies

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Speaker 2: to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And so the invitation really is to look at the

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Speaker 2: wounds that are driving our relationship to ambition and that

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Speaker 2: painful ambition and see if we can do some work

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Speaker 2: on them and pivot into that more purposeful relationship with ambition,

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Speaker 2: the more wide driven ambition.

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Speaker 1: And was all this knowledge that you have now, like

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Speaker 1: understanding like the wounds that the ambitions coming from, did

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Speaker 1: you have that before prior to this health scare? Or

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Speaker 1: was that part of your journey post scare? Like how

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Speaker 1: did this work start for you after you had that?

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Speaker 1: You know, that health scare and moving forward from there.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I was one hundred percent a mess when I

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Speaker 2: had the health scare. And I think it's like life

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Speaker 2: looks great, Like I look like I had it together. Right.

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Speaker 2: When I use the word mess, people are kind of like,

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Speaker 2: is that the right word? But it was so messy

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Speaker 2: in my head because I had all of these ideas

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Speaker 2: about what success looked like, how I needed to show up,

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Speaker 2: and I was absolutely coming from a place of pain.

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Speaker 2: So I have a betrayal wound, which is when we

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Speaker 2: feel like our caregivers don't live up to expectations, so

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Speaker 2: we try to control everything. I have a rejection wound

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Speaker 2: because I grew up a brown kid in a larger

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Speaker 2: body and was just like ruthlessly bullied growing up. And

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Speaker 2: so I was like, Okay, I'll avoid if I don't

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Speaker 2: throw my hat in the ring for things, I never

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Speaker 2: have to be heard again. And those patterns were playing

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Speaker 2: out so big in my work life, especially the control one,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's the one that was making me

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Speaker 2: the sickest because I was trying to dot every eye,

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Speaker 2: cross every tea, control everything to feel safe, and you

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Speaker 2: just can't. And so I after my health scare, I

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Speaker 2: went on what I call my eat Prey love here,

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Speaker 2: and I was still working, but I basically would like

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Speaker 2: went to study nutrition. I went to study mindfulness, somatics,

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Speaker 2: all these things just to kind of feel better for myself.

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Speaker 2: And when I did, I was like, Oh, this is amazing.

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Speaker 2: I don't have to suffer through work. I need to

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Speaker 2: teach this. So it was a couple of years after

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Speaker 2: that that I put together my curriculum and started coaching.

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Speaker 1: So you're working and when we talk about your corporate career,

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Speaker 1: you said, six years in you're kind of having this

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Speaker 1: health scare. But I'm curious, like, was some of that

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Speaker 1: driven from the career path that you chose? So can

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Speaker 1: you take me back to where you were at in

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Speaker 1: your career at that point. You're in New York City,

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Speaker 1: You're in marketing, but what were you what was your

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Speaker 1: day to day like?

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Speaker 2: So I had started my career in marketing and I

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Speaker 2: initially worked on the brand side. So I worked at Cartier.

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Speaker 2: That was my first job. And then while I was

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Speaker 2: at Cartier, I got this really cool opportunity to work

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Speaker 2: on their Women's Initiative Awards, which is this contest and

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Speaker 2: they work with female entrepreneurs and you basically they give

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Speaker 2: funding and mentorship to these female entrepreneurs and nobody was

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Speaker 2: doing anything like that at the time. I was like,

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Speaker 2: this is so cool. I want to figure out a

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Speaker 2: way to do this full time. So I wrote a

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Speaker 2: business plan and I pitched it to someone that I'd

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Speaker 2: gone to school with, and I was like, let's start

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Speaker 2: this agency where we work with emerging female entrepreneurs and

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Speaker 2: one side can be traditional agency, so we can pay

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Speaker 2: the bills. The other side can be will take sweat

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Speaker 2: equity in these companies to help build them. And I

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Speaker 2: had no boundaries, and I was deep rest dependent and

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Speaker 2: so imagine starting a business with some of those traits.

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Speaker 2: And so I would put my clients before myself, I

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Speaker 2: would put my employees before myself. And I just didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to take care of myself and grow a

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Speaker 2: business at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And then I think it happens, like in your mid

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Speaker 1: twenties at this time, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: I'm an elder millennial, and I feel like that's such

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Speaker 2: a millennial thing to do too.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what's the millennial thing to do? Well?

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Speaker 2: You know, just I like look back off and I

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Speaker 2: was like, wow, the hubris of being like, I'm twenty six,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to start a company, you know.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, Sometimes I see I'm an elder millennial too,

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Speaker 1: And one of my ambition traps now is starting to

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Speaker 1: feel like, wait, should I have done things differently ten

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Speaker 1: years ago? Should I have done this more early in

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Speaker 1: my career that more? It's such a useless train of thought.

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Speaker 1: It's like that, yeah, the mind part of the mental

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Speaker 1: part of it, like these little side quest that your

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Speaker 1: brain tries to take you on as one of the

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Speaker 1: the biggest challenges I found of like being at this

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Speaker 1: stage like the I don't know what you call it,

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Speaker 1: Like you're not You're definitely not in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: your career. You're not a brand new, bright eyed, bushytail

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Speaker 1: entrepreneur anymore. But you're like not where you want to

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Speaker 1: be yet. I don't know what this messy middle is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it is some bullshit. It is hard. It is hard.

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Speaker 2: It is hard. I find myself even thinking about like

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Speaker 2: the fourth quarter of my career too, because I do

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Speaker 2: feel like, well, I know, and I've seen it with

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Speaker 2: my clients, like agism is so real, and so I'm

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Speaker 2: putting a lot of pressure on myself to like knock

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Speaker 2: it out of the park in my forties because I

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Speaker 2: just feel like agism is the realist and that's not

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Speaker 2: a helpful thought for me either. And so I do

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Speaker 2: think the mindset work is such a big part of it,

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Speaker 2: the mindset work the nervous system work, because they go

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Speaker 2: hand in hand.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, the agism. Yeah, I mean I think that you

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Speaker 1: you don't really feel it until you think it gets

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Speaker 1: right to get in your forties. I'm not quite there yet,

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Speaker 1: but I will be. And for me, I just think

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Speaker 1: about the studies I used to cover as a journalist

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Speaker 1: that were, like women reach their peak earning years at

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Speaker 1: like forty four or forty three, whatever it is. I

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Speaker 1: forget what it is now and you haven't looked up recently.

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Speaker 1: And then what I have found that helps is I

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Speaker 1: will try to listen to as many women over fifty

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Speaker 1: as possible, So I will like actively go go and

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Speaker 1: search them, like where are they talking about? Like where

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Speaker 1: are they? Where are they? Where they at? And where

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Speaker 1: can I listen to them? And then I find my

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Speaker 1: my sources of inspiration, especially ones who like didn't hit

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Speaker 1: it big until like their forties and fifties. That helps

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Speaker 1: a lot. It's like that opposite action side of things. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So back to your your your not your year of yes,

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Speaker 1: your eat prey love year. Okay. So, and this is

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Speaker 1: happening in tandem with the pandemic ors is like before that,

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Speaker 1: this is.

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Speaker 2: This is pretty pandy a long time.

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Speaker 1: So you're in your twenty you're girl bossing yourself and

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Speaker 1: you have you know, and then you're you're struggling. You

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Speaker 1: said you have like boundary issues and you're putting everyone

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Speaker 1: before yourself, and then it starts to manifest as like

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Speaker 1: you're stopping feeling well and then you have this health scare.

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Speaker 1: So then do you just leave the business? What do

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Speaker 1: you end up doing with the business?

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Speaker 2: Over the course of a year, I figured how to

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Speaker 2: transition out. So it was the first time i'd gone

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Speaker 2: to life coaching as well. So I remember like coming

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Speaker 2: home and getting this diagnosis and talking to my roommate

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Speaker 2: at the time, and very serendipitously, she was like, well,

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Speaker 2: this woman that I work with just started this life

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Speaker 2: coachi Berger and I was like, I don't I need it.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to know anything about it. I'm going like,

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Speaker 2: where's the sign up sheet? Like literally, I didn't do

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Speaker 2: any research. I just signed up. And I think it

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Speaker 2: was one of those it was such an important moment.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that I said yes. They really helped

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Speaker 2: me transition out of the business. At first, they were like,

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Speaker 2: are you sure, Like, let's not jump from the frying

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Speaker 2: pan into the fire. But I just had this deep

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Speaker 2: knowing that that wasn't the place that I could thrive.

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Speaker 2: That I just made such a mess of things that

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Speaker 2: I needed to do over and I had made choices

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Speaker 2: from a not aligned space. I'd made choices from like

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Speaker 2: what I thought my life should look like, and what

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Speaker 2: I thought would be shiny and wonderful, and what I

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Speaker 2: thought would get me celebrated and all the things right

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Speaker 2: really from my wounds. And so over the course of

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Speaker 2: a year, I wrote my transition plan, I hired a

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Speaker 2: replacement for myself, and then there was a couple of

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Speaker 2: months where I was job hunting and had nothing lined

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Speaker 2: up and like it was just my job to find

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Speaker 2: a job and just keep working on my own mindset

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Speaker 2: and well being. And then I ended up taking two

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Speaker 2: roles consecutively as head of marketing for different wellness companies.

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Speaker 2: And it was because the wellness space had kind of

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Speaker 2: like brought me back to life in lots of ways,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, okay, like maybe this is

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Speaker 2: where I want to be spending my heart beats. But

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Speaker 2: it was kind of me dragging my feet. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: quite ready yet to jump into coaching, and so I

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Speaker 2: needed these two experiences before I was ready. But then

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Speaker 2: the last corporate America experience I had was so hilacious

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Speaker 2: and I won't name names, but I think sometimes things

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Speaker 2: need to be really terrible so that you will jump

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Speaker 2: off the cliff. And I just kind of felt like

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Speaker 2: I was like, it is now or never. I feel

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Speaker 2: like I don't have a choice, Like I can't stay

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Speaker 2: here every day, pulling on my life size callous to

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Speaker 2: get through the day. Like I think it's time to

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Speaker 2: do my own thing. And so I did. I jumped

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Speaker 2: off the cliff. And then that year was a year

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Speaker 2: of transition, and I was doing some marketing consulting because

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Speaker 2: I knew that's what I could pay the bills with,

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Speaker 2: and then I was building my coaching practice at the

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Speaker 2: same time. And then over the course of a year,

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Speaker 2: I was able to let go of those marketing clients

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Speaker 2: and step fully into coaching.

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Speaker 1: Our journeys are very similar.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, I love you so much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish you know, sometimes I'm like, damn, do

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Speaker 1: we have to burn out so? Or does it have

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Speaker 1: to be so sometimes that You're right, A lot of

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Speaker 1: the stories of women who launch your own business is big.

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Speaker 1: You know, they start with some sort of like corporate

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Speaker 1: you know, experience that's so toxic, or they get laid

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Speaker 1: off or they get fired or it's just so toxic

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Speaker 1: they have to leave, or it's just like such a

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Speaker 1: you know, there's some kind of like big dramatic traumatic

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Speaker 1: event that then that starts. That is that in and

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Speaker 1: of itself? Like does does that mean that I started

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Speaker 1: my business from a space of like a wound that

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Speaker 1: I need to unpack, Like is that you know because

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Speaker 1: it or is it like what I always I don't

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Speaker 1: really know. I don't know if I would have always done.

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Speaker 1: It felt very natural to start the business the way

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Speaker 1: that I did, but in a way, and I used

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Speaker 1: to say, well, I'm so grateful that that didn't work

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Speaker 1: out because I had told myself I needed the validation

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Speaker 1: of that brand that business to like prepare me to

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Speaker 1: do the thing like and almost like you just said

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Speaker 1: a second ago, like you need those two jobs before

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Speaker 1: you were ready to coach. But yeah, I wonder now,

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Speaker 1: like I guess maybe because it's like five years back

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Speaker 1: and I'm looking and I'm like, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: if things would be different had I had I not

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Speaker 1: had that sort of like you know that that forced

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Speaker 1: you know, start that or that forced like come to

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Speaker 1: Jesus moment where I had an opportunity to make a choice.

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Speaker 1: Am I going to go choose another corporate path or

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Speaker 1: am I going to take a chance on myself? And

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Speaker 1: a lot of the women that I were where they're

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Speaker 1: also coming from that space as well, Like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do this anymore, And so is the option

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Speaker 1: like doing my own thing or should I try and

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Speaker 1: take a bet on another corporate role? And it's even

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Speaker 1: though I chose my own thing, it's I find it

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Speaker 1: hard to like give a clear direct answer to that

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Speaker 1: because you know, there's pros and cons to either side,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to guide anyone into a path

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Speaker 1: of entrepreneurship because it's so hard and it's so stressful

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Speaker 1: when maybe sometimes the comfort or at least like the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote security of corporate might be you know, fine

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Speaker 1: for them. Right now, Does that make any sense at all?

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Speaker 2: It makes complete sense. And I think each of our

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Speaker 2: risk profiles are different depending on our lived experience and

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Speaker 2: our financial status, right, Each of our risk profiles are different,

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Speaker 2: and I think each of our skill sets are different too,

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Speaker 2: and so bumping those two things up against each other,

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Speaker 2: for somebody, it might make sense to actually take the

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Speaker 2: next corporate role, but in a place that's more aligned

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Speaker 2: with their values. But for somebody else that really needs

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Speaker 2: it's freedom and that's a top ranking value for them,

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Speaker 2: Maybe it is entrepreneurship, and they're willing to meet the

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Speaker 2: toughness of it because the other side of it gives

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Speaker 2: them everything that they want. I think it's really different

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Speaker 2: for each of us. And just going back to your

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Speaker 2: question about the pain piece, it's like, I don't think

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Speaker 2: that there is one universal right answer, but for most

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Speaker 2: of the people that I coach, they do have to

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Speaker 2: have these moments of deep pain because the pain has

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Speaker 2: to be big enough that then we're willing to navigate

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Speaker 2: the fear. Right has to be so uncomfortable that we're

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Speaker 2: willing to cross the cap to the other side. Listen,

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Speaker 2: I've met some people and I think that they're rare

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Speaker 2: that they're like I didn't need the deep pain, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, blessings to you, like, write a book, teach

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Speaker 2: us how But most of the people that I know

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Speaker 2: need to experience extreme discomfort so they can choose another way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just think about like the tech bros that

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Speaker 1: I would encounter earlier in my career. You know, I

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Speaker 1: came up in like business finance, journalism and you know,

436
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: working at Business Insider and I'm unpacking all that in

437
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: the book now that I'm working on, and and that

438
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 1: culture of just like you know, they didn't have some

439
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: deep trauma. They just were like, I'm want to start

440
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 1: a business everyone, you know, I'm just gonna like get

441
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of dous together. We're gonna start this, We're

442
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: gonna get funding, and it's just like fine. And then

443
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 1: like women, the women of color that I work with,

444
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,959
Speaker 1: there is that deep pain and trauma. Maybe that's I mean,

445
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 1: I understand it's racism, it's sexism. It's just like the

446
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 1: cards that were dealt. But part of me is like, dang,

447
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,640
Speaker 1: can't it just be like we just had a lot

448
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 1: to offer, We just wanted to do this, and we

449
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 1: just la la la. But that is that like even possible.

450
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 1: We usually have so much on our shoulders. The stakes

451
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: are so high, Like you said, it has to be

452
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 1: we have to have something that drives us past that

453
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 1: fear because we have so much to lose.

454
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I feel like that's the thesis.

455
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 1: Right.

456
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 2: It's like the tech bros. And I talk a little

457
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 2: bit about them in my book too, Right, they have

458
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of privilege, right, they were getting the

459
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: venture funding. We're getting our tiny slice of the two

460
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 2: point seven percent, right, and so the ways are going

461
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 2: to part for them in a way that they won't

462
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 2: part for us. And because we meet so much resistance,

463
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 2: we need few and fire for the resistance, and sometimes

464
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 2: that is the pain, right to get us over this threshold.

465
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 2: I wish it were different, and I think that's I

466
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 2: think I remain hopeful. I remain hopeful that it can

467
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 2: be different, and that the next generation will get to

468
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: stand on our shoulders and that it can be different.

469
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: But we meet our shadows in entrepreneurship more so than

470
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: anywhere else. We meet such headwinds in the workplace right

471
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 2: that I think we have to use that to fuel

472
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 2: us forward.

473
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,719
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about, like you said, that big shift

474
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 1: and that passion, but you also talk about the book

475
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: in the book, how that's not always enough, and I

476
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 1: would agree. I think that if it's whatever that wound

477
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: is and you're fighting against it, like that sense of betrayal,

478
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 1: we'll all get back or I'll control everything that can't

479
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: last forever. So is that one of the traps, like

480
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: you kind of start to peter out like that whatever

481
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: that was that was driving you, and then you kind

482
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: of are are you stuck then? Trying to figure out

483
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,479
Speaker 1: what's going to drive me now? And then what's your

484
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: advice to people who are who are feeling that like

485
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: that lack of drive, like whatever was fueling me as

486
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 1: run out? Now, how do I keep going?

487
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: Right? That's when I think that we really need to

488
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: look at the bigger purpose question, the bigger why.

489
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 1: Right.

490
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 2: So so many people talk about passion, and listen, passion

491
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: is great, we need it. But passion is fickle. It

492
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: is meant to shift for every stage of our life.

493
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 2: Right when I was going through my prey love here,

494
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: I was like really passionate about nutrition. Actually went to

495
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: nutrition school for a stint. Right, That's I didn't become

496
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: a nutritionist, right, didn't ancher my life in it. And

497
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: so it's important to make space for passion, but not

498
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: to anchor everything to it because it is by nature transient.

499
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 2: It's supposed to change over time, which is why I

500
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 2: think purpose is more important. So that deeper why, And

501
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: in the book, I have this five part framework for

502
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: building purposeful work, and I think that it needs to

503
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: leverage our zone of genius. It needs to be aligned

504
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: with our values. It needs to be connected with the

505
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 2: impact that we want to have, whether that is with

506
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: our family, community, or the greater good. It needs to

507
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: be contentment based, and it needs to meet our needs.

508
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: And when we are cultivating work that touches on all

509
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 2: five of those areas, that gives us fuel and fire

510
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: to keep going. Right, the impact piece. I think about

511
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: this so much with your work, with my work. Right,

512
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: we came here to help a very specific population and

513
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: that's the thing that gets me out of bed every

514
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: single day. Right, It's like, I cannot let these people down. Also,

515
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: when we're showing up in our zones of genius, right,

516
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: that is innate for us. So we don't actually have

517
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 2: to use the same push and effort that we do

518
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: if we're showing up in our zone of excellence, it

519
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 2: just flows a little bit easier. So these are things

520
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: that we can tap into that allow us to kind

521
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: of be carried with the waves and the current versus

522
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: you know, fighting that uphill battle.

523
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: Heyba, fam, We're going to take a quick break, pay

524
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: some bills and we'll be right back. Well, can we

525
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: talk about like just sort of the not sexy side

526
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: of like, you know, being in business or even in leadership.

527
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: I mean you talk about Before I ask that question,

528
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to get more clarity on, like the kind

529
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: of clients that are working with. Are these are they entrepreneurs,

530
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: Are they you know, leaders and executives in a corporate

531
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: world or are they a little bit of both.

532
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: A little bit of both. It's actually a fifty to

533
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: fifty split. So ninety six percent of my practice identify

534
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: as women, seventy percent are women of color. And then

535
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: they're split across entrepreneurship and what I call entrepreneurship. And

536
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: so the ones that are inside of corporate, they're the first,

537
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: the few, the only right. So they might be the

538
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: first CEO of their venture fund, they might be the

539
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: first one in the c suite at their Fortune five

540
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 2: hundred company. And then for the entrepreneurs, they are usually

541
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: VC backed, sometimes service based, and they are solving a

542
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: very specific problem, usually based on their lived experience.

543
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: Okay, and then what when it comes to the leaders

544
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: who are in corporate, the first of few is the onlies.

545
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: What are the challenges that they're coming to you to

546
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: help them get over?

547
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: You know, I feel like every season's a little bit different,

548
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: and I feel like my clients kind of your back

549
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: things that I'm navigating, And so one thing that a

550
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: lot of them are navigating in this particular season seems

551
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: to be authenticity, Right, So how can I not code switch?

552
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: How can I show up in my highest and fullest

553
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: and cultivate internal stability so it feels safe to do that.

554
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: That's something that quite a few of my my clients

555
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: are navigating in this moment, And I was like, Oh,

556
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: I feel like this is so interesting. Themes definitely come

557
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: up in different seasons.

558
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: Is that having to do with like, are they trying

559
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: to figure out how much of their thoughts on like

560
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: politics and policy to be authentic about or like, yeah,

561
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: can you say more about that? Yeah? And you know,

562
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: there's so much happening in the news right now, assassination

563
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: on what's his face? I don't want to say, and

564
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: you know, there's everything happening in the Middle East, and Jesus, like,

565
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: I actually deleted Instagram off my phone this morning, wow,

566
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: because of the things I was encountering when I went

567
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: on too, like IG in these spaces where I have

568
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: to show up and anyway, Yeah, I'm wondering what is

569
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: it that they're wanting to be authentic about but not sure.

570
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I have one client that is transitioning. They like,

571
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: but it's something like they are in the Midwest. They're

572
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 2: in sort of the belly of the beast of capitalism,

573
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: and they're like, how do I show up every day

574
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: in my values and true to myself and say a

575
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: thing where it doesn't feel safe to say a thing

576
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: where I could lose my income if I say a thing.

577
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 2: They're also a person of color, and so there's just

578
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 2: so much complexity to that and there's no right answer

579
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: to that, and sort of supporting them through finding their

580
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: own way in it, but it's really complex. I also

581
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: have another client who woman of color in banking, again

582
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: sort of like in the belly of beasts of capitalism

583
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: and wanting to support queer folks and people of color

584
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 2: and just being able to bring some white folks on

585
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 2: the journey and help them understand how the experiences are

586
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 2: different and cultivate more spaces where people can have community

587
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: spaces and practice being more in their authenticity. And so, yeah,

588
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: I think it's a wild time for all of my

589
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: clients because a lot of them want to say the thing,

590
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: and they don't feel safe to say the thing, and

591
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: they have families that they have to feed, and so

592
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: they're navigating that space of you know, how do because

593
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: I feel like everything that we go through in the

594
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: day is asking us can we rise to meet our

595
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: authenticity and our self worth or not? Right? And I

596
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: don't think there's any right or wrong answer, because I

597
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: think sometimes it just is not safe, and so I

598
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: feel like each of them are navigating that in different ways,

599
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: if that makes any sense.

600
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: It's so freaking hard. I mean, it doesn't feel Maybe

601
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, there was a sense

602
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: of like the corporations were at least that they weren't

603
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: completely sincere We know that now, but there was more

604
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: tall a little bit more tolerance for the kinds of conversations.

605
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: But today everything feels like so like everyone's on tenter hooks,

606
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: And I don't even know what advice I would have

607
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: for someone in that situation. Honestly, I might be like,

608
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, talk to your therapist, talk to your community,

609
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: and don't bring that shit to work. Right now, it's

610
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: like nothing is so safe. So yeah, I'm glad that

611
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: it's you and not me being asked those questions. But

612
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: what have you found yourself saying in some of these

613
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: if you can share a little bit of you know,

614
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: some of the advice you've given them.

615
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and okay, and I want to add one thing

616
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: into after that. Okay, Okay. So I do this thing

617
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 2: with my clients where they have unlimited voice messaging support

618
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: with me, because I feel like, especially if you're a first,

619
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: if you the only, there are so few spaces where

620
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: you have somebody that links arms with you and is

621
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: willing to partner with you, right, because it's so lonely

622
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: in those spaces, it's so lonely at the top. So

623
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: we'll be voice noting about a lot of these challenges.

624
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: And so one of the things that I was saying

625
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: to my clients the other day is like, there's no

626
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: right or wrong answer.

627
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: Right.

628
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: You have to cultivate internal stability.

629
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: Right.

630
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 2: You have to support your nervous system to feel as

631
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: safe as you can in a room. Right, But we

632
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: don't know what we're going to encounter in that room.

633
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: All we wanted what we can do is support our

634
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: nervous systems so that it can act appropriately right where

635
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: it might be like a fight or flight response, because

636
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: that space is not safe, right, So I'm trying to

637
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: support them to find that internal stability and find the

638
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: most resonant action in that space without putting their lives

639
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: on the line, right, And a lot of the times,

640
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: my invitation for them is cultivating community and finding their

641
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: allies and advocates because they're safety in numbers, right, and

642
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: in those spaces, that's kind of the best thing that

643
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: we can do. And so who are those people that

644
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: if you're going to say something in a room, they're

645
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: going to have your back, or they're going to have

646
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: your back afterwards, or they're going to second whatever you're saying.

647
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: And really seeing if you can find those pockets of

648
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: community to create the external stability to mirror the internal

649
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: stability that you're creating for yourself.

650
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: What was the thing that you were going to add?

651
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: So my book came out in May, and I started

652
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: to think about my marketing plan last November, and I

653
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: kind of got on the court with a lot of

654
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: my asks in early twenty twenty five. And so as

655
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: soon as I started planting seats, I'm a you know,

656
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: executive coach, leadership coach. I do a lot of work

657
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: with ergs, specifically for women's groups, four people of color.

658
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: And so when I was talking to these ergs was

659
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: right around the time of the executive orders and dismantling

660
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: all of the ergs literally happening at exactly the same time.

661
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: And there was a moment where well, one, of course,

662
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: like I was outraged, and I also went to victim mode.

663
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,479
Speaker 2: I felt personally victimized by this in the way that

664
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: so many people do. And I was like, okay, but

665
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: if I stay in victim mode, they win.

666
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: Right.

667
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: If I stay in victim mode, this work doesn't get

668
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: into the hands of the people that need it, and

669
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: they win. And I was like, okay, I have to

670
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: find the ways, the different ways to get this work

671
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: into people's hands. Because I had organizations that I had

672
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: spoken to at the end of twenty twenty four and

673
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: they're like, okay, we'll buy two hundred books for this conference.

674
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: We'll buy five hundred books for this talk. And I

675
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: was like great. And then literally in February, I had

676
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: them calling me being like, we can't take your books,

677
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: find some other place to donate them, like we can't

678
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: have your books in our four walls. And so then

679
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: I had to get really agile about Okay, well, what

680
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: are the other pockets and spaces that I can find

681
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: to get this work out? And that's my invitation for

682
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: my clients too, Right, if we can't do it in

683
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 2: the four walls, what are the other ways and what

684
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: are the other spaces and places we can get this

685
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: work out? Because the work doesn't stop necessary.

686
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry that that happened. So how did you

687
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: pivot or did you pivot in your strategy? Because I

688
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: know for a lot of authors, getting those you know,

689
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: getting those speaking opportunities and getting corporations to make these

690
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: big orders is is like a key part of success.

691
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: So then I looked for community groups. I looked for

692
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: the women's groups, the you know, I did a group,

693
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: I did a talk for the Arab American Association of Bankers. Right,

694
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: I looked for all of the spaces in the pockets

695
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: of where my people were. And sometimes there were twelve

696
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: people in a room versus two hundred people in a room,

697
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: and it required more energy and effort from me. But

698
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: I also think I probably got more nourishment back being

699
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: in those rooms than I ever would have gotten in

700
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: the five hundred person room. And so you know, there

701
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: definitely was a rub in the beginning, and I think

702
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: that it all works out the way that it's supposed to.

703
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: And I was worried, like I'm a chronic illness early,

704
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: so I was worried. I was like, Okay, am I

705
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: going to be able to lift this?

706
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: Right?

707
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: This is asking more of me? But I ended up

708
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: getting so much more back being in those rooms that

709
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: I think I think it worked out.

710
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: I mean, damn, your book is I mean, it's not giving.

711
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 1: It doesn't have any of like the trigger words that

712
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 1: I feel like it would get, you know, deleted by

713
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: the government these days, Like I talk.

714
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: About white supremacy culture, like I opened the.

715
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Book, but you got to open the book and read

716
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: the words to get to that good stuff, you know

717
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, I don't think the thing a

718
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: lot of people in power are like opening books and

719
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: looking at the words, you know, Like I can't imagine

720
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: being on a banned book list because it's so so

721
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: look it's cute, it's all it's pig.

722
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: No.

723
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: But I mean obviously, I mean, since then it's become

724
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: a best seller, right, you had the was it the US?

725
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: You made the US to USA today bestsellers list. Congratulations

726
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: that I know that doesn't matter, but it matters.

727
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: I thought was like, it'll move my flywheels. So I

728
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: was working really hard not to come from a core

729
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: wound with this book, right, So I was like, you know,

730
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: rejection wound. Right, So I was working really hard not

731
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: to come from that place. And so my thought process

732
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: with the best seller list was like, if I hit

733
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: the best seller list, more people will see it, more

734
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: people see it, more people will buy it, more people

735
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: will recommend it, more people will buy it, and round

736
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: and round and round will go.

737
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

738
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's worked out that way, but

739
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm glad that I was able to shift my come

740
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: from and not come from a place of pain.

741
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh I yeah, I girl. The things I've heard

742
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: about like how how to think about the lists and

743
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: how to and these like these rewards or these like

744
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: trappings of success and list should I mean, I signed

745
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: with a big podcast network in March, and even then,

746
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: I know, I'm like, just because you get the thing

747
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: that looks like success, it doesn't always end up being

748
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: the thing. And and I'm like, dang, I would like

749
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: to learn a different lesson, Like I'd like now that

750
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: I've had enough of those, like the accolade, like the

751
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: like the trapping of successes does not always lead to

752
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: the big whatever breakthrough moment that you're expecting. I would

753
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: like one of those. I think I've had enough disappointments,

754
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: like by now, you know what I mean, Like, can

755
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: we get some like wins that actually are like a win, Yeah,

756
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: like game changers for you.

757
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: That's my intention for you, that you get some game

758
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: changing wins.

759
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just you know, And I think it goes

760
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: back to like being an entrepreneur as a woman and

761
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: a woman of color, like and I in the book

762
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: that I'm working on, and I think you do a

763
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: great job of this too. There's this relationship with like

764
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: data and statistics and the reality the reality check that

765
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: you want people to like be grounded in, you know,

766
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: like a realistic expectation. But at the same time, the

767
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: expectations for us are usually on the lower side. And

768
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: my my mission is always to like find the optimism

769
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: and find the but what if there's an exception? And

770
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: what if you are the exception? To find that expectation,

771
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: And there's no way I can continue that without that

772
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: community around me echoing it in times when I start

773
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: to doubt myself. And with that, I want to talk

774
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: to you about your community and as you have had

775
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: these you know, different chapters of your career and you

776
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: know in your coaching, how have you gone about building

777
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: a support system for yourself to carry yourself through this

778
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: and how important has that been for you?

779
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to say something's your last point and

780
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: then I promise I'll answer this. Okay, But I was

781
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 2: when I was writing the book, what I learned is

782
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: that less than three percent of books sell more than

783
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: a thousand copies. And then I was looking at book

784
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 2: sales for my particular identity and just like publish authors

785
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: that are Arab it's like less than one percent of

786
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: published authors in the US are Middle Eastern, And I

787
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: was like, I had, like it is my mission to

788
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: beat the odds, Like this is unjust like we need

789
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: to take up space, right, And so I think sometimes

790
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 2: that can also be the fuel and the fire, and

791
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we find our ways

792
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: to really shift the numbers and the data.

793
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: Just going back too and congratulations, yes, amen, And I

794
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: know it was so much work.

795
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm here to support you every step of

796
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: the journey because it is wild.

797
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: I need it.

798
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: Community has supported me so big when I had my

799
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: book launch party and I took the stage and I

800
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: was telling people like, you know, I'm so happy to

801
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: be here. But literally, none of this is possible without community, right,

802
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: Like we are made of the people in the rooms.

803
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: We are made of the people that will have us

804
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: on the podcast, we are made of the editors that

805
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: say yes to us, and so none of this is

806
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: possible alone. And I think it's so important to remind

807
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: ourselves of that the toxic individualism is part of painful ambition, right,

808
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: that we have to do it all ourselves and nobody

809
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: is helping us, and that we're self made, right, nobody

810
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: is self made. We are made of people in these rooms,

811
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: and I just think it's so important that we remember that,

812
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: that we give gratitude for that, that we pour into

813
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: those people in the same way that they're pouring into us.

814
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: But I had all different kinds of communities supporting me

815
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: throughout the three year journey, from my best friend who

816
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: literally was such an important emotional support, like bless her,

817
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 2: she heard some wild parts of the story, like she's

818
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: incredible to my amazing editor, and my amazing agent, and

819
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: my family, my sisters. I have many sisters, and I'm

820
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: just grateful for each of them.

821
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: How many?

822
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: Well, okay, four from the same parents, so we're five.

823
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: And then my dad got remarried and has two more girls,

824
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: so I'm technically one of seven girls.

825
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: Wow, I only have one sister, and we're just like

826
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: clinging to each other, like like those orders that you

827
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: see in the mains, like holding on for dear life.

828
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: That's And where do you fall in the birth order?

829
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: I'm two of five?

830
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: Oh number two? Okay, so you're older but not the

831
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: oldest yea. But yeah, do you feel like your dynamic

832
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: and your siblings, Like how has that helped you? Or

833
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: I mean it's offered you that support, But how is

834
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: it being one of the older children? Is that part

835
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: of the drive? And like that gives you that sense

836
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: of like I'm going to be a boss.

837
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: It's interesting. So like we're mixed, and I think like

838
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: being mixed is a very particular lived experience, and so

839
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 2: having these five other humans that are navigating something similar,

840
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: I think is so so important. Just like even now,

841
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: like I'm noticing hormonal shifts in my life, but I

842
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: can't always go to my mom right because like, we're

843
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: not exactly the same, and so having these having sisters

844
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: who have a similar lived experience to me, I feel like,

845
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: is really really helpful. But I talk about this in

846
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 2: the introduction of my book Growing Up. My older sister

847
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: was really sick with type one diabetes, and so I

848
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: kind of assumed the older sister role. So though I'm

849
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: number two, I really feel like older sister vibes, but

850
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 2: then also sometimes feel like the middle child, and so

851
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: we have a separate middle sister group chat. Sorry, older

852
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: and youngest sister.

853
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: You get to be so you get the best of

854
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: both worlds.

855
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: I get the best of all worlds.

856
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, middle sister group chat.

857
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: Okay, we're like anybody else feel invisibleized This week.

858
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: I think I'm coming into my middle sister. I'm like

859
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: the oldest because I also have a blended fan family

860
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: or four. First, I have two older siblings, but I'm

861
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: the oldest of my dad's kids, a boy and a girl.

862
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: So I feel like the older sibling but also very

863
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: much a middle sibling. These days, I'm just like and

864
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: Peggy over here is kind of how I feel like. Yeah,

865
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: so shout out to the middle kids. Get that middle

866
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: kid chet girling.

867
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 2: It's very helpful.

868
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: It would just be me. There's not that many of

869
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: us sevens a lot. Do you and what kinds of

870
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: career paths have your siblings taken? Do they come to

871
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: you for advice or is it like, oh, that's amana,

872
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna you know. I was there when she

873
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: was into backstreet boys or whatever it was.

874
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 2: They came to you for advice sometimes. My older sister

875
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: is a lawyer, and I think she's had like a

876
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: bit of a love hate relationship with it, and so

877
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: there's definitely been seasons where she's like, I want to

878
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: be a stylist. What would that look like? And I'm like,

879
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: let's talk about it. And then my sister number four

880
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: is a social worker and therapist and when she was

881
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: navigating that change, was exploring what it could look like

882
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: to set up her own business. And so so I think,

883
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, they've seen me in all seasons of my life. Right,

884
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: so whether they take me quote unquote as seriously as

885
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: my clients take me, I think is a different story.

886
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: But I think that they know they have a resource

887
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: here if they need one.

888
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: Good, big sis good, big sis, that's all right, bixits energy,

889
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: what's your How do you define like the idea of

890
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: scarcity in a career in a career path, and how

891
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: does that play into how does that play into the

892
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: idea of an ambition? Trap? Is that part of it?

893
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: It is? Scarcity is a big part of it, right,

894
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: And I think scarcity is manufactured by the dominant in

895
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: group to maintain their power, and then it causes fighting

896
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: in the in group, right because we feel like there's

897
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: only space for one woman, one woman of color, one

898
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: person with a disability, one queer person. And so I

899
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: think actually scarcity is a tool of the oppressor.

900
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 1: And is it that?

901
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: So?

902
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: But how does that how do we get how do

903
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: we get over it? How do you get over that

904
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: sense of like there's only so much and if they're

905
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: not getting it, then I can't either. Or if I

906
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: get it, then that's all there is? Like how do

907
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: you get over that?

908
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: Because I think that's zero sum thinking, right, If I

909
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 2: get it, then there's none left for anybody else. Like

910
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: if I get a book deal, another woman of color

911
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: can't get a book deal.

912
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: No.

913
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: When I was actually negotiating my book deal, it was

914
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: really important that I negotiated because I was, like, the

915
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 2: advances we get tend to be lower than white women,

916
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: and so we need to expand the bands for anybody

917
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: that identifies similarly to us. And so I think that

918
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: me taking up space and makes space for other people, right,

919
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: We're actually just carving out a path, and so I

920
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: think that's one of the most important mindset shifts that

921
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: we can make. But we can internalize. Right, So scarcity

922
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: is perpetuated by the dominant in group, but we can

923
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: internalize that and weaponize it against ourselves and tell ourselves, well,

924
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: there is only space for this one person, and so

925
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get it or I have to

926
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: fight this person out right, But I actually think collaboration

927
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: can be even more helpful and even more supportive, so

928
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: we can make more space. So like, if you and

929
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 2: I negotiate together, then I think that we can both

930
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: win together. Rushia Katulshian, do you know her?

931
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: Oh? Do I know her? Oh? Yeah, It's crazy how

932
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: we know all the same people.

933
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: And I feel which she's just a bay book coming

934
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: out Uncompete exactly. Shout out to her book Uncompete, which

935
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: is all about that. And I think is such an

936
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: important and necessary work and interestingly so we've created a

937
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: little group with her, me and four other authors, mostly

938
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: women of color, to talk about, well, what are the

939
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 2: learnings that we've all had, and how can we support

940
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: each other so everybody can have a win, Like, just

941
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: because you're at the conference doesn't mean I can't be

942
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: at the conference the next year.

943
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a question that I get is like uh,

944
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: And especially it's one of the reasons why I created

945
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: the Mandy money Makers because when I was doing those

946
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: free coaching sessions, a theme that came up as like

947
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: isolation and feeling alone, and I just wanted to kind

948
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: of at least create a space where like I could

949
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 1: help counteract that in some way, shape or form. It's

950
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: not the only you don't have to like join a

951
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, a professional community like that, but just meeting

952
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: one person at an event or online and asking the question,

953
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: like my five year old and like ask if they

954
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: want to play, it's okay. But as an adult it's

955
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: sometimes I don't know, it's like more it's more intimidating.

956
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: But I have found like nine times out of ten

957
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: they're just love that you asked and the answer is

958
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: usually oh my god, yes, please, I need a friend.

959
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: How's that been for you? Similar?

960
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: Very similar?

961
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: Right?

962
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: I think it definitely feels awkward. It's not as natural

963
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: as it was on the playground, But I don't mind

964
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: being I've liked come to embrace my awkward and so

965
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: I'll just be like, I feel like we should be friends,

966
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: like can we hang out? And one of my dear

967
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: friends actually initiated this for me, like sort of invited

968
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: me into that because a couple of years ago she

969
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: kind of she asked me on a friend date. She

970
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 2: was like, you know, we've seen each other in these rooms,

971
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: we kind of move in the same circles, Like, can

972
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: we just have a friend date? And then it was

973
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: so funny because we had this friend date and it

974
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 2: actually felt like a first date where I was like,

975
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: do you want to sit on the inside? Should I

976
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: sit on the inside? I love your dress? Can we

977
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: share fries? Like it was yeah, that's precaus, But I think,

978
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: like make the awkward ask, because nine times out of

979
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 2: tenant you said it works out beautifully and then you

980
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: have this amazing friend that you wouldn't.

981
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: Have had you both like I go home and I'll

982
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: like text I'm like, this was so great, thank you

983
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: so much, Let's do it again? Or like should I

984
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: wait till the next day? Should I text now? Is

985
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: that too thirsty? Yeah? I think you just got to

986
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: be cringe, Like stop being afraid of being cringe and

987
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: just be cringe. All right. So obviously everyone listening, be

988
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: a family, needs to go get the ambition trap. I

989
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: wanted to ask, just to like wrap up the conversation,

990
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: how do you hope, like, what's the key takeaway from

991
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: the book that you hope that anyone who's reading it

992
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: kind of closes the book and they move forward with

993
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: this feeling inside or this idea that bost.

994
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: So essentially what I'm saying in the book is that

995
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: ambition is neutral and natural. It's for everybody. At its core,

996
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: I define it as a desire for more life. So

997
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: that can't be right for some people and wrong for others.

998
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 2: But we need to really shift the cultural narrative around ambition,

999
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: which is that the framework on the pivot from painful

1000
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: to purposeful ambition. And so my invitation for people is

1001
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: to find their right relationship with ambition, not that instrumentalizing hustle,

1002
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: painful scarcity driven version, but that generative why connected purposeful ambition,

1003
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: and it's going to look different than what we've seen

1004
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: in the world because what we've see in around ambition

1005
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: has been largely dysfunctional and doesn't support people with non

1006
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: dominant identities. But it needs to look different. And so

1007
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: my invitation is that you show up in your big ambitions,

1008
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 2: that you take care of yourself, because the only trap

1009
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: is believing that our dreams aren't possible, and I refuse

1010
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: to let any of us fall into that.

1011
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, Alm Gonna al Taie for joining me on

1012
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: Brown Ambition. Thanks for thanks for the pre show chat.

1013
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: I needed that, and Brown Ambition listeners be a fan.

1014
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: Please go pick up her book. I'm gonna. Where can

1015
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: they find you online? How can we support your on ig?

1016
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: I know that.

1017
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You can find me on Instagram

1018
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 2: at Amina Altai. I'm sure spelling will be in the

1019
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: show notes my website. I'm at Altai dot com and

1020
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: you can get the book everywhere you buy books. If

1021
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 2: they don't have it in your local bookstore, you can

1022
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: just ask that they order it.

1023
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: And are you taking new clients? Should we open that

1024
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: up for BA fam.

1025
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I would love that I always have to plase

1026
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: on my roster for amazing humans. So if you feel called,

1027
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: please connect please.

1028
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: All right, so, I'm sure we'll link to your websites.

1029
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,959
Speaker 1: People can go find you if they want to coach.

1030
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: But first and foremost, get the book. It'll be a

1031
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: great entry point. Maybe get the book and then you

1032
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: know that'll make you even better client for a'manna afterward.

1033
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much for taking the time,

1034
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: ba Fam. Until next time, take care, bye bye, okay

1035
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: va fam. Thank you so much for listening to this

1036
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: week's show. I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney,

1037
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 1: our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for ideas to launch productions.

1038
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and

1039
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together. It

1040
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: is not a one person project, as much as I

1041
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: have tried to make it so these past ten years.

1042
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able

1043
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: to put this team around me to support me on

1044
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: this journey. And to y'all, BA Fam, I love you

1045
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: so so so so much. Please rate, review, subscribe, make

1046
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: sure you sign up to the newsletter to get all

1047
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 1: the latest updates on upcoming episodes, our ten year anniversary

1048
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: celebrations to come, and until next time, talk to you

1049
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: soon via Buy