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Speaker 1: My Interview with Kirk Bludsworth originally aired on March twenty,

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Kirk, of course, was a guy who was

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Speaker 1: sentenced to death and was the first DNA death row

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Speaker 1: ex honery in America. His story has to be heard

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Speaker 1: to believe. You may not even be able to believe

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Speaker 1: it after you hear it, but it's a phenomenal story.

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Speaker 1: He's a phenomenal guy. I'm happy to say that he

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Speaker 1: had become very close ever since this episode aired, and

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Speaker 1: even I guess before. But today Kirk is an accomplished

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Speaker 1: jewelry artisan. He's an activist, a writer, and a public

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Speaker 1: speaker on issues of wrongful conviction and the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: He makes these incredible rings. He has ex hoonnery rings

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Speaker 1: and also death row ex honery rings that so many

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Speaker 1: of the ex honeries wear, And I think you'd have

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Speaker 1: to ask them, but you know, I know how much

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Speaker 1: it means to them to have these beautiful pieces of

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Speaker 1: jewelry made by one of their own. I mean, nobody

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Speaker 1: should ever have to wear that ring, but if you've

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Speaker 1: been through that, I think it's a powerful statement that

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Speaker 1: you can wear in your finger. In twenty nineteen, Kirk

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Speaker 1: was named the interim executive director of Witness to Innocence,

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Speaker 1: a group of death row exanneriees who advocate to end

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Speaker 1: the death penalty and have been successful in a number

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Speaker 1: of states already, so their work is phenomenal.

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Speaker 2: Kirk, you're one of my heroes. Keep up the great work.

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Speaker 3: With the police banging on the door, open up.

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Speaker 1: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 1: choice I made as a free man.

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Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be one of those people who everyone in

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Speaker 2: the world is going to think as.

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Speaker 4: A monster or suspect as a monster for the rest

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Speaker 4: of my life, and I'm just going to have to

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Speaker 4: come to peace with that.

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Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look get my picture in the

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Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

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Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

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Speaker 2: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for

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Speaker 2: the last time. Man, all hell broke loose.

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Speaker 1: But welcome back to Rafel Conviction with Jason Flamm, our

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Speaker 1: guest today is an extraordinary man.

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Speaker 2: Kirk Bloodsworth twice.

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Speaker 4: He was convicted of the nineteen eighty four murder and

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Speaker 4: sexual assault of nine year old Don Hamilton.

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Speaker 5: Convicted of murder, he spent nearly nine years in prison,

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Speaker 5: including two on death row.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety three, DNA testing exonerated him. It was

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Speaker 4: not available at the time of the nineteen eighty four crime.

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Speaker 5: One advocate for abolishing the death penalty is Kirk Noble Bloodsworth,

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Speaker 5: the first person whose capital conviction was ever overturned because NA.

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Speaker 2: Kirk. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Glad to be here, Jason, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 1: When I say Kirk is an extraordinary man that takes

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Speaker 1: on a number of meetings, Kirk has the distinction I

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Speaker 1: guess you would call it of being the first DNA

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Speaker 1: X hognery from death row in the United States. Chew

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Speaker 1: on that for a second, right, first DNA exonnery from

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Speaker 1: death row. Now, by way of background, Kirk was a

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Speaker 1: US Marine honorably discharged, had no issues with the law

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Speaker 1: or anything else at the time that he was arrested

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Speaker 1: and ultimately convicted in a gruesome crime sexual assault and

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Speaker 1: murder of a nine year old girl and in his case.

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Speaker 1: The police overlooked is a nice way to say it.

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Speaker 1: A guy who would have been the obvious suspect and

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Speaker 1: who turned out to be the actual killer. So Kirk,

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Speaker 1: let's go back. This story takes place quite a while ago,

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Speaker 1: because your life took a horrible turn in nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 1: But let's go back even before that. Give a little context.

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Speaker 1: How you grew up. How'd you end up in the Marines.

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Speaker 3: Well, my dad was a marine, so you know, you

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Speaker 3: regaled all those stories about Marines and being in a

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Speaker 3: marine corps in Paris, Island.

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Speaker 2: So you served for how many years?

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Speaker 3: Four years and two years reserve?

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Speaker 1: Right, So you're in the Marines, you come out, and

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Speaker 1: you're back home in Maryland.

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Speaker 2: Right right.

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Speaker 3: I want to become a crab fisherman, what we call

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Speaker 3: a woodman on the eastern shore of Maryland where I

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Speaker 3: grew up in a small town called Cambridge. My father

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Speaker 3: was a fisherman, his father, his father and so on,

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Speaker 3: and it goes back a couple hundred years. From what

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Speaker 3: I understand. Everybody in Cambridge pretty much works in and

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Speaker 3: around the water business, whether it's processing, whether it's catching

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Speaker 3: the fish or delivering it. So my father crabbed and

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Speaker 3: fished all his life. And there's even an island in

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Speaker 3: the Chesapea Bay named after my family called Bloodsworth Island.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had some deep roots and really truly

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Speaker 1: following in your father's footsteps, Like straight down the line.

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Speaker 1: There you are back in Maryland, having served your country honorably, discharge, arched,

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Speaker 1: and your life took the most terrible turn that is

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Speaker 1: really imaginable.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't get worse.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that draws me to

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Speaker 1: this work that I do with the Innocence Project is

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Speaker 1: that I never could and I still can't, and I

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Speaker 1: never will be able to imagine anything worse than being

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Speaker 1: wrongly convicted and sent to prison, much less death row

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Speaker 1: for something you didn't do. And that's exactly what happened

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Speaker 1: to you, exactly, And let's talk about that because it

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Speaker 1: seems so insane that you would become a suspect in

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Speaker 1: a terrible, gruesome crime. I mean, I would think they

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Speaker 1: would be looking for somebody who's got a history. This

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Speaker 1: is not the type of crime that somebody just one

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Speaker 1: day who's living a normal life. It's like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go out in sexual assault and murder. I'm really

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Speaker 1: a young child, I mean a nine year old. This

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Speaker 1: is this is bad stuff.

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Speaker 3: You're just a little girl out playing a game of

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Speaker 3: hide and go seek. On July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 3: and two thirty that afternoon, her friends they were all

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Speaker 3: playing this game, and she was that she couldn't find them,

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Speaker 3: and she came back up to the house.

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Speaker 2: According to her aunt that was watching.

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Speaker 3: Her that day, and said, well, go back to the woods.

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Speaker 3: This is in Baltimore County, Maryland. There was a wooded

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Speaker 3: area and there's a pond there called Bethkee's Bond, And

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Speaker 3: she said, you go to the fence line, you holler

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Speaker 3: in the woods and tell them to get out of there,

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Speaker 3: because it's not supposed to be in. Theres a lot

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Speaker 3: of less savory fellas and people in that area. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of things happening in that wood and she

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Speaker 3: didn't want her back there. So about half an hour later,

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Speaker 3: this was some time around eleven or so in the morning,

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Speaker 3: her friends came back and she did not, and at

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Speaker 3: two thirty that afternoon they found her lying face down

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Speaker 3: in a pile of leaves. Her head was crushed. She

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Speaker 3: was nude from the waist down. Her clothes had been

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Speaker 3: discarded in a tree not far from her body, and

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Speaker 3: she was assaulted with a stick. That is what this

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Speaker 3: honorably just chars Marine was charged with and never seeking

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Speaker 3: a death pellty in my case.

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Speaker 2: So how did this come about? Why?

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Speaker 3: You my first wife, she was from Baltimore County and

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Speaker 3: she lived in and around the area of where this happened.

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Speaker 3: I had just hitchhiked up there four for July weekend

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Speaker 3: and wanted to be with my wife. You know, she

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Speaker 3: had left Cambridge. She didn't like the waterman's life. It

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Speaker 3: was sixteen hour days all summer. I was hardly home.

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Speaker 3: I was crabbing, you know, and working. And she couldn't

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Speaker 3: stand that she was from the city and it's a

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Speaker 3: little different where she was from, and she wanted to

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Speaker 3: go back home, and so I put her on her

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Speaker 3: bus and sent her back home. I just got pining

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Speaker 3: over her, and I wanted to go back. So I

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Speaker 3: hitchhiked with the shoes on my feet, and that was

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Speaker 3: it that I had an old pair of discus shoes

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Speaker 3: and I got dropped off. I got a ride and

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Speaker 3: dropped off, and that was the fourth of July.

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Speaker 2: Weekend.

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Speaker 3: I had just got paid from this crab herd. I

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Speaker 3: was working for just a couple hundred bucks because of

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Speaker 3: the season just started and it wasn't really much going

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Speaker 3: on yet. She wasn't really happy to see me, as

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Speaker 3: it turned out, and I was there for less than

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Speaker 3: a month now. When Dawn was found that afternoon on

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Speaker 3: July twenty fifth, a search ensued for this person that

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Speaker 3: was seen by two little boys. Now there was a

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Speaker 3: total of five eyewitnesses in this case who positively identified

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Speaker 3: me as the last person seen with Thawn. I'd never

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Speaker 3: seen her in my life, and I'm going to kind

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Speaker 3: of like bringing us together. So they were searching for

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Speaker 3: a man. The little boys who had seen her. They

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Speaker 3: were fishing in that pond I told you about, and

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Speaker 3: Dawn had come along asked them to help her find

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Speaker 3: her friends. They declined. They had just caught this turtle,

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Speaker 3: they said, and they were more interested in that now.

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Speaker 3: They described this man as being six foot five, curly,

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Speaker 3: blonde hair, bushy mustache, tan skin, and skinny. Well, that

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Speaker 3: last description wouldn't never fit me in no kind of way.

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Speaker 3: Or the blonde hair. My hair was as red as

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Speaker 3: the walls in this room. I have to tell you

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Speaker 3: cyburns down to here. I had a red mustache. I

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Speaker 3: looked like the brawnie man if I put on a

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Speaker 3: flannel shirt and you sure ain't six five now I'm

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Speaker 3: six foot tall at best, and I weighed something like

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Speaker 3: two hundred and thirty pounds. Back then, I was a

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Speaker 3: big kid, you know, twenty three years old. So they

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Speaker 3: arrest me on a Thursday. I was in Cambridge. My

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Speaker 3: wife and I had broke up. I came back home.

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Speaker 3: This was the week of August eighth. I would be

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Speaker 3: arrested the next day, on August ninth, and at two

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Speaker 3: forty five in the morning, waking up on the couch

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Speaker 3: with the police banging on the door.

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Speaker 2: Open up.

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Speaker 3: It's the Baltimore County Police Department. They said, we have

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Speaker 3: a warrant for arrest of Kirk Bludsworth. And I go

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Speaker 3: to the door myself, lights are shining in my face.

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Speaker 3: Step outside, mister Blusboroth. Somebody called me a son of

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Speaker 3: a bitch. And then that was the last time I

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Speaker 3: seen Cambridge, Maryland for about eight years ten months. In

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Speaker 3: nineteen days now they had showed the picture of a polari.

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Speaker 3: He took a polard shot of me when they questioned

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Speaker 3: me the day prior, and they showed it to the

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Speaker 3: two little boys and they said, well, he looks like

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Speaker 3: the guy, but his hair is too red. They still

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Speaker 3: would not They claimed that it was the picture. There

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Speaker 3: ain't no way you could look at me in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty four and not say that I had red hair.

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Speaker 3: So they called each and every witness in the case.

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Speaker 3: They told them not to watch television. We arrested his suspect.

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Speaker 3: By the way, his name is Kirk Bludsworth. And this

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Speaker 3: was a very high profile case. We're talking a small community.

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Speaker 3: Nothing like this ever happens.

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Speaker 2: Oh, they were coke units.

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Speaker 3: Everybody was search of her and understandably though, there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of stuff going on at that time and

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Speaker 3: they didn't have any idea, but they did. They just

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Speaker 3: never went back to check on anybody. There were so

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Speaker 3: many suspects. So they called the witnesses and tell him

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Speaker 3: not to watch TV because we rested suspect and he's

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Speaker 3: going to be on a lineup on Monday. I was

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Speaker 3: arrested on a Thursday. The lineup comes, nobody identify some

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Speaker 3: pick out police officers. They had four cops in my

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Speaker 3: line up so the two main witnesses were the two

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Speaker 3: little boys. They never identified me in the lineup. Two

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Speaker 3: weeks later, their parents called the Balmer County Police that

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Speaker 3: our children have made a mistake. It's really number six

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Speaker 3: and that's the position I stood in. So the parents

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Speaker 3: were in the lineup with the kids. Yeah, they wouldn't

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Speaker 3: let the little kids in the well, and they also

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Speaker 3: drove home together and drove to the place together. It

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Speaker 3: was a lot of different things. What I know of

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Speaker 3: law enforcement, you never put witnesses in the same room

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Speaker 3: or to try to identify anybody. This whole thing really

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Speaker 3: started from the older child making a composite sketch that's

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Speaker 3: circulated in the area, and there was five hundred tips

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Speaker 3: that came on a tip line. What directed this whole

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Speaker 3: thing toward me was a next door neighbor calling the

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Speaker 3: police and saying that that composite sketch looks like my

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Speaker 3: neighbor Kirk. That's how it all began, by somebody pointing

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Speaker 3: a finger at me.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's exactly how it all began, and that's where

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Speaker 1: it all started. To put everybody on notice that they

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Speaker 1: wanted to get you. Once they had that, they were

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Speaker 1: like all right. We got a lot of pressure. We

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Speaker 1: got to get somebody right because this is going to

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Speaker 1: be pandemonium in the community. Nobody wants their kid to

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Speaker 1: be next. Right, This is a real, real bad guy

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Speaker 1: out there. But it's hard to imagine how someone in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, anyone in law enforcement in a community like that,

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Speaker 1: like Cambridge, MARYLD, which is probably like a lot of

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Speaker 1: other communities around the country, if you know that you've

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Speaker 1: got a guy in your midst who is capable of

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Speaker 1: the most terrible crime imaginable, which is exactly what happened here,

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Speaker 1: I would think that you would be laser focused on

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Speaker 1: making sure you got the right guy. If for no

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Speaker 1: other reason, then your family might be next if you

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Speaker 1: just because by definition, if you work in law enforcement

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Speaker 1: in a particular community, you live in that community. And

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Speaker 1: everybody's got some kind of family, even if you're not

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Speaker 1: married or don't have kids, you may have a sister

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Speaker 1: or a niece or a nephew or whatever the hell

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Speaker 1: it is, and you don't want that person to fall victim.

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Speaker 1: And I think that most law enforcement people are you know,

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Speaker 1: they certainly get into it for the right reasons. No

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Speaker 1: one gets into it to get rich and I think

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Speaker 1: they want to do good. But sometimes in these cases,

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Speaker 1: the pressure and the I don't want to call it excitement,

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Speaker 1: but the urge to solve it gets so it overrides

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Speaker 1: these common sensical type of instincts and these and then

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Speaker 1: somebody like you ends up locked up and the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: goes free. And when the perpetrator is free, they're free

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Speaker 1: to do it again.

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Speaker 3: Let's see, early on they had there's numerous suspects in

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Speaker 3: this case. It was over five hundred tips that came

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Speaker 3: in on the tip line, but there was a suspect,

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Speaker 3: and there's this guy came in eight days before I

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Speaker 3: was arrested, and he had been released from prison or

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Speaker 3: from jail pending trial based on what two girls had

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Speaker 3: said that he tried to accost him in Bush's next

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Speaker 3: to rail yard. This was two weeks before Dawn's murder.

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Speaker 3: He was let go and cut loose and they never

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Speaker 3: went back to check. That was eight days before I

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Speaker 3: was arrested. And I'll tell you what, I'd imagine that

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Speaker 3: the Baltimore County Police Department still haunts them today for

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Speaker 3: not doing that well.

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Speaker 1: It would sure seem like again going back and comparing

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Speaker 1: and contrasting. You have you on the one side, an

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Speaker 1: honorably discharged marine, and then on the other side you

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Speaker 1: got a guy who several days earlier was accused, not

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Speaker 1: convicted yet, but accused.

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Speaker 3: He was accused a year before as well, but they

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Speaker 3: couldn't have the children wouldn't testify against him, so they

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Speaker 3: had to let him go. This woman seen him that day,

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Speaker 3: running and sweating profusely. He was later arrested three weeks after.

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Speaker 3: I was for another tempted murdering rape of a woman

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Speaker 3: in Fells Point, maryl. We busted in her door and

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Speaker 3: tried to cut her throat.

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Speaker 2: And was he convicted of that crime? He was.

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Speaker 3: Actually the girl got the knife from him and somehow

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Speaker 3: stabbed him in the foot and they followed the blood

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Speaker 3: to his house.

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Speaker 2: Oh she's a very brave one. She she's really a hero.

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Speaker 3: She's a chance and in my opinion, oh yeah, never

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Speaker 3: met her, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But whoever she is, I hope she's listening. She has

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Speaker 1: my respect and I know yours too. I see your

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Speaker 1: face sitting up talking about it. So so now things

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Speaker 1: get really crazy, right So here you are you have

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Speaker 1: no experience with the criminal justice system. Your family has

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Speaker 1: no experience with the criminal justice system, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, you're locked up and you're not getting out.

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Speaker 1: There's no bail, there's no you're not going anywhere until

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Speaker 1: they figure this out, right, and they're on a mission

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Speaker 1: now to get you. So if you weren't a wealthy guy,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just.

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Speaker 3: Have any money, right, you started fishing that summer and

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Speaker 3: we just got married. We were broke as you can get.

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Speaker 3: My wife, Wanda, didn't have any money. Her parents and

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Speaker 3: my father had a house and he would eventually mortgage

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Speaker 3: that house to try to help me. I had two trials,

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Speaker 3: and my god, it just turned into a surrealistic nightmare.

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Speaker 1: So day one, let's talk about when the story of

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Speaker 1: how you first met your court appointed lawyer, right, because

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Speaker 1: if everybody knows, if you can't afford a lawyer, the

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Speaker 1: constitution guarantees you the right to a lawyer, doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: guarantee you the right to a genius. Although, like I said,

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Speaker 1: I always want to temper that by saying, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of There are a lot of very talented

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Speaker 1: public defenders out there, and they are a thankless job

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Speaker 1: and a brutal job.

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Speaker 2: But in your case. You ended up with a clown.

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Speaker 3: I well, you know, I struck the lottery of inconfidence.

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Speaker 3: I'd have to say. Now, I want your listeners to

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Speaker 3: picture a prison visiting room. This is my first visit

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Speaker 3: with my court appointed attorney. And he comes into the

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Speaker 3: room through an archway that's eight foot high and about

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Speaker 3: eight foot wide. We have to talk to a glass

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Speaker 3: and on a telephone type of application to talk. He

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Speaker 3: sits with his back to a brick wall, and the

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Speaker 3: first thing out of his mouth he says, Kirk, you're

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Speaker 3: in a lot of trouble. I thought that was very

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Speaker 3: astudent him right off the back, but he says, don't worry.

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Speaker 3: I know my way around the courtroom, I know my

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Speaker 3: way around a criminal justice system, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: find our way out of here together. And actually it

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Speaker 3: made me feel a little better. He was really up

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Speaker 3: on his heels. He was going to help me prove

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Speaker 3: my innocence. Right before he leaves, he reiterated the same thing,

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Speaker 3: says Kirk, I know my way around the courtroom, I

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Speaker 3: know my way around the criminal justice system. We're going

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Speaker 3: to find our way out of here together. He put

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Speaker 3: his hand on the glass as a jester to say goodbye.

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Speaker 3: He picked up his briefcase, turned around and ran right

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Speaker 3: into the wall. He wouldn't talk to me. That was

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Speaker 3: only one of three visits this man came to see

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Speaker 3: me in the eight months it took the seventy to

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Speaker 3: death row. The trial lasted two weeks, and when the

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Speaker 3: gavel came down, all my life man. The courtroom erupted

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Speaker 3: an applause, like if we're at some game and somebody

355
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Speaker 3: scored a winning touchdown for the team, that everybody like

356
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Speaker 3: they had quite the arsenal against me. I had that guy.

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Speaker 3: They couldn't find his way out of the jail. I

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Speaker 3: don't see how in a world you can make justice

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Speaker 3: come from that situation. It's like shooting a slingshot up

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Speaker 3: at howitzer from on the top of a hill that's

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Speaker 3: a hundred feet high. You cannot win that way. And

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Speaker 3: that's the way they set up a lot of these cases.

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Speaker 1: And that's why so many people end up pleading guilty,

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Speaker 1: because they realize that their odds of winning are so

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Speaker 1: infinitesimally small as yours were in this case. When I

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Speaker 1: think you're David and Goliath, analogy is pretty good, except

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Speaker 1: for there's no winning in this case, there's no happy ending.

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Speaker 1: So Don Hamilton was the one that lost her memory

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Speaker 1: lives on indeed, and I think that when justice was

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Speaker 1: finally done in this case, that's the only thing we

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Speaker 1: can do to honor her memory, I guess, is to.

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Speaker 2: Actually get the real guy off the streets.

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Speaker 1: So now you're convicted and sentenced to death, and for you,

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Speaker 1: it was as bad as it can get.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty five, the Maryland Penitentiary in Ireland was

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Speaker 3: probably one of the worst prisons in the United States

377
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Speaker 3: at that time. A guard had been disin bout two

378
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Speaker 3: weeks before I got there Jesus from a perceived insult

379
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Speaker 3: from another inmate. I walked on this tier when I

380
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Speaker 3: stepped off the bus, and when I stepped I had

381
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Speaker 3: to hop as I had leg irons, waist chain cuffs

382
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Speaker 3: and so forth. And you have to kind of like penguin,

383
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Speaker 3: walk through this place till you get to yourself. And

384
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Speaker 3: he locked you right in and they put me on

385
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Speaker 3: that same wing that he was killed on. Now I

386
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,199
Speaker 3: can tell you all that my life expectancy was not

387
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Speaker 3: supposed to be. I wasn't supposed to be alive after

388
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Speaker 3: nine years basically, I mean because of what I was

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Speaker 3: charged with.

390
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Speaker 2: Right in prison.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the pecking order, the bottom of the pecking

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Speaker 1: order is people who are charged with exactly what you

393
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Speaker 1: were charged with, which is which is hurting, harming, or

394
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Speaker 1: even worse, sexually assaulting a child, and of course snitches. Right,

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Speaker 1: those are the people that are at the highest risk

396
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Speaker 1: of being killed. Inside you're under bo of the wrongs

397
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Speaker 1: of the ladder. You're under defeated the ladder, right, and

398
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 1: here you are, but you're looking at one of the

399
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Speaker 1: only cats that ever walked out in population on his own.

400
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Speaker 2: I remember my cell body next door to me.

401
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Speaker 3: He said, man, you're crazier and a hootout. You can't

402
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Speaker 3: go out there. I said, I don't care. I'm gonna

403
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Speaker 3: fight just standing up one way or the other. They

404
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 3: can fight me for anything they want, but they're not

405
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Speaker 3: gonna fight me for what I didn't do. And it

406
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 3: just never came right away. It never came right away.

407
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Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of horror and a lot of stuff.

408
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 3: Now I'm gonna use his nickname because I don't want

409
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Speaker 3: to tell his real name. So his name is Blue.

410
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Speaker 3: Blue taught me how to play chess. Now Blue was

411
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Speaker 3: six foot five. He's a big boy and really tall.

412
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Speaker 3: We read all the time. He's always in. Taught me

413
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Speaker 3: a lot of stuff about prison life and what the

414
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Speaker 3: who to mess with, who.

415
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Speaker 2: Not to mess with.

416
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Speaker 3: When I say he taught me to play chess, you're

417
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Speaker 3: probably wondering how that happened because I'm in a cell.

418
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Speaker 2: He's in a cell.

419
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Speaker 3: They put death row prisoners on the ministrative segregation. The

420
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 3: suicide was so he taught me how to play by

421
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 3: calling the pieces out, so we had to call a

422
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 3: man pawn four and so forth, and then he would

423
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Speaker 3: tell me what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: He also taught me about the law. He was one

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Speaker 3: of the leaders from the Nation of Islam. You know,

427
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Speaker 3: he's a heavy hitter in there. He'd been there like

428
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Speaker 3: twenty years. And one day when I got off a

429
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Speaker 3: lock up and he come off, and he had come

430
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Speaker 3: to the chow hall and he tapped me on the

431
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Speaker 3: shoulder and said bloods he he said, I'm leaving to day.

432
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Speaker 3: That's what some of the people called me. And I said, man,

433
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Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Because he was a three

434
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Speaker 3: time loser, he was never going to get out. I

435
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Speaker 3: didn't want to argue with blue because he was six

436
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Speaker 3: foot five. He had the most intense eyes of anybody

437
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: I ever seen, like Samuel L. Jackson's the closest thing

438
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,360
Speaker 3: I could think of now. But think of Samuel Jackson's

439
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: eyes if they were a caramel collar, and that was blue.

440
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 3: He was intense man. When he would talk to you,

441
00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: his eyes get big.

442
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 2: And and he told me, he said, I'm going home today.

443
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 2: He said, I got a peel bond, so I'm out

444
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: of here. I bumped knuckles with him, and I said, man,

445
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: I hope to see him play chess in the inner

446
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: Harbor someday, you know.

447
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: And he went back to his cell. I went back

448
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 3: to the library where I worked, and he packed up

449
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 3: all his stuff. He made a chest set out of

450
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: state soap. Some of the best artists in the world

451
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 3: are in prison. He carved this out of a disposable

452
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: razorably he took out.

453
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: Of a rasor.

454
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 3: He got dressed in his three feet suit, put on

455
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: his coofee, sat down, tied his tie up, and then

456
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,959
Speaker 3: took two two number two pencils and shoved them right

457
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 3: through his eyes.

458
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. I mean, that's why I had to pause

459
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: for a second. And I've heard that story before, but

460
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: it seems impossible for a human being to do that

461
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: to themselves.

462
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 3: Well, in Bluesmond, that was the way to get out.

463
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 3: He thought it was going to kill him. See he

464
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 3: was going to he was trying to commit suicide. What

465
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: it was all about? I had seen him about a

466
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 3: year later. Instead of that really intense caramel colored eye

467
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 3: man that I knew, We're walking through the hallway bent

468
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 3: over now and there was only these gray spots.

469
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 2: In his eyes.

470
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 3: And I asked him, I said, Blue, why did you

471
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: do that?

472
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 4: Man?

473
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: He said.

474
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 3: It was echoed to that hallway in the hospital. He said,

475
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 3: I didn't want to see it anymore. I didn't want

476
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: to feel it anymore. I didn't want to be it anymore.

477
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: And the revelation that came to me from when.

478
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: He said after I watched him hobble away with the

479
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: nurse down the hallway, was how was I going to

480
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: do it? Blue was guilty. He knew it.

481
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 3: He knew he had messed his life up, but I

482
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 3: hadn't done anything. And he turned around and said, you'll

483
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 3: make it one day with a smile, looking at the wall,

484
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 3: thinking I was staying there close so and this was

485
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: our life penitentiary.

486
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: If you had witnessed guys jumping off the tier and

487
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 1: all sorts of other.

488
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 3: Horrors, yep, hang you body bootlaces. And there was plenty

489
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: of people that killed himself. I knew one guy that

490
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 3: took a bunch of sedatives and taped a plastic bag

491
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: around his head and just fell asleep.

492
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 2: So it was. It was as.

493
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: Terrible and as terrifying a situation as anybody could ever

494
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: find himself in.

495
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: But you had to find a way out. You were

496
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: not in a position to give up.

497
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: I mean, if you'd give up, the state would have

498
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: killed you, and that would have been we wouldn't be

499
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: here talking about it now.

500
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 3: Well, I never had a chance to go to death

501
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 3: road because I turned my case over and my case

502
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: was overturned by discovery evidence. So I got a second

503
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 3: t but the same people came to testify. They were

504
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: seeking the death penalty again. They wanted to kill me

505
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 3: bad and shut me up because I would not shut up.

506
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: I was convicted again, and this time I was sentenced

507
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 3: to double life in the second trial, but I still

508
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 3: was going to die in prison, and I said, man

509
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: had nobody didn't, And they put me out regular population.

510
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 3: They did everything they could.

511
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: I thought they were thinking somebody else would kill you

512
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: if they could kill it, right, And a double life.

513
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: That's a crazy thing too, right, I mean, nobody has

514
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: two lives.

515
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: You can't do that, you know, no matter what you do,

516
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means.

517
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: You can't go, you can't die, come back to life,

518
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: and didn't die again. But if they could, if they would,

519
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: they would have executed you twice. They could have gotten

520
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: away with it. Yeah, But so so then you got

521
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 1: your sentence overturns, and now now you go back. It's

522
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 1: sort of like a I mean it's like a pyrrhic victory, right,

523
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you win, but you lose it. And plus

524
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: on top of everything else, you're a young guy. So

525
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: you got to look forward now to if you survive

526
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: and if somebody doesn't kill you in prison, or you

527
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: don't get sick or anything else that could happen, or

528
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: you don't go crazy and.

529
00:25:59,200 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: Lose your mind like blue.

530
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: You're looking forward to fifty years of this absolutely miserable existence.

531
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: These were consecutive life since right. See, you can't get

532
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 3: out of.

533
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: That, no way you can do it. You were dying.

534
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: You're a dying prison. But obviously that's not what happened,

535
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: because you're here. There's a fantastic, amazing story, sort of

536
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: a miracle story actually about how you actually did manage

537
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: to become the first DNA xignery in the country. Yeah,

538
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: and I'll never forget the story of how you were

539
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: able to prove your innocence.

540
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: I was a library for seven and a half years,

541
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: so I read everything from Gestalt psychology to Stephen King.

542
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: But Jason, don't ask me about that Gestalt book because

543
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: I have no idea what that gad they was. But

544
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 3: I got this book in the mail one time, and

545
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 3: it was written by Joseph Womble, who was very famous

546
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: back in the seventies.

547
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: This book I read, he wrote about the first.

548
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: Time DNA was ever used in a criminal case in England,

549
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: and it was about these two murders, Linda Mann and

550
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: there's this other gown named Dawn too. I read with

551
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 3: rapt interest, and nobody could figure out who killed these

552
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: two little girls over there, and then they were trying

553
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 3: to find out how to catch them, and they couldn't

554
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: catch this guy, so they got help from this professor.

555
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: His name is Alec Jeffries. He is the founding father

556
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: of what we know is genetic fingerprinting or DNA testing.

557
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 3: I could not even spell dioxy rib and nucleic acid

558
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 3: back then. He's the one that developed a new test

559
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: that could genetically identify one person from another, and it

560
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: was fascinating. He come up with this technology just by

561
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: a mistake doing some polymorphisms. Okay, somebody have to look

562
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: that up about gray seals and the Antarctic. That's how

563
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: it all came to pass. And so he said told

564
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: the consoles in the Scotland yard, said, look in Nara,

565
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 3: there's killings over there. I think we can identify and

566
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 3: we test the seamen. Not only did he find the

567
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: real culprit in this case, as it turns out, but

568
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: there was a man who confessed to a crime turned

569
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: out to be he's false confession. Not only did they

570
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: exonerated him and caught the real killer, who happened to

571
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: be a baker to live right in town.

572
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 2: What year was that?

573
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: That was in nineteen eighty five or so, So the

574
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: technology was catching up to me. I remember, coming out

575
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: of my bunk, I hit my head. I was reading

576
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: a book and I hit my head. I started remembering

577
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: and I'm getting chills right now on my arms remembering

578
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: the part in the book and it just said the

579
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: DNA and the semen was found and all that. Then

580
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: it popped in my head about the semen that was

581
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: found on Dawn's body in this case, slides swabbing as

582
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: many spermatozoa scene and closed quotes in the report I

583
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: had right in front of me. I flipped out. I said, look,

584
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: I got to get this test done. So I wrote

585
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, who has since passed away. Her name was Ambrokes,

586
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: and I said, look, I need this test. She wrote

587
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 3: me back a letter and this is what she said, Jason,

588
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: we regret to inform you the DNA has been inadvertently destroyed.

589
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: I got so mad when I read that letter. I

590
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 3: can still remember myself reading it and just like kind

591
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: of resigning myself to the fact that I was going

592
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: to die in this place.

593
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: It was over.

594
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: I didn't resign. I got mad or my face turned

595
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: red again. I just I threw everything in the corner,

596
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 3: all my papers, all my books, every single thing, all

597
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: my clothes, everything I had in myself. I had a

598
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 3: book of matches, I lit that sucker, and the book

599
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: of matches went out.

600
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: And then it hit me.

601
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: I don't think they destroyed it. They just didn't know

602
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: where it was.

603
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: Let me go back for a second. So you let

604
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: the book of matches. You were going to set all

605
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: your stuff on fire. Yeah, but the matches didn't work.

606
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: They blew out. Amazing. How do you do that in

607
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: a cell? I like to know.

608
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: I always felt like somebody blew him up.

609
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no wind in there.

610
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: We know that.

611
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: So not that I know except me. So I called

612
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 3: Bob Moore and who was my lawyer? Now, this guy,

613
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: he was a lawyer of some record man. He was

614
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: just smart as he could be. He's the chief judge

615
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: in Washington, d C. And a superior court right now. Wow,

616
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: he's an awesome guy. And the quality of attorney that

617
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: I had now was different. So I called Bob on

618
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: the phone and I said, Bob, you gotta go check.

619
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: He already thought of it, He already thought of the DNA.

620
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: And they said that he destroyed it. And I said, Bob,

621
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: you better go check because if you don't, I'm gonna

622
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: call you twenty times a day versus ten. He went

623
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: back to the Towson Courthouse in Baltimore County where I

624
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: was tried. Sure enough, it wasn't there. He happened to

625
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 3: pass my law clerk in my second trial and they

626
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: knew each other. He said, Bob, what are you doing here?

627
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: He said, well, I'm looking for the Dawn Hamilton evidence

628
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: in the Kirk Bloodsworth case. He said, well, I know

629
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: where that's at. It's in the judge's closet, a paper

630
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: bag in a cardboard box sitting in the floor. And

631
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: there it was the swabbings, the stick, all the stuff

632
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: done needed and Jason, it was half of one cell.

633
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: Did free me And I'm getting the chills now, right.

634
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: So that's where the miracle comes in, right, the fact

635
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: that he ran into the clerk in the first place,

636
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: that he happened.

637
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: To ask oft how he doing, what are you doing?

638
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: What are you working on? And he told him and

639
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: then you know, he knew where it was.

640
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's incredible, it's synchronicity, it's serendipity, it's a

641
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. But it also points to the fact

642
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: that you could have very easily given up at the

643
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: time when you were told that the evidence was gone.

644
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: You'd have to be almost nuts to say, well, it

645
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: was not gone. I'm telling you it's not. You just

646
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: told it was gone by somebody who should know. But

647
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: you didn't give up it.

648
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: And that's I wouldn't stop because they had already hit

649
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: evidence about us another suspect. That's why the case was overturned.

650
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: That's what gave me the mindset. They go and get

651
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 3: him to check right, Well, that's how that's how you

652
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: got that. That's how it was overturned. Just to clarify,

653
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: that's how it went from being a death sentence to

654
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: a life sentence. It is because in the second trial

655
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: you were able to prove that they were that they

656
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 3: had withheld evidence. It withheld evidence about another suspect, and

657
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: who was right at the crime seeing the day of

658
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: the murder. Now, of course he wasn't a real call

659
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: pread but it took a year to do that test.

660
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: So I get this posted note. It said urgent, call

661
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: your attorney.

662
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: Urgent.

663
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 3: The guard stuck the post a note and it slid

664
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 3: it in the cell and I got it and he

665
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: said call your attorney. So I said, you gotta let

666
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: me out. I was the librarian. He let me out,

667
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: So I called Bob Moran on the phone collect about

668
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: a million time. If you knew Bob Moore, and he's

669
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: very quiet, very quiet mob manner God. And he was

670
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 3: screaming on you, Kirk, you're innocent, man, you're innocent. I

671
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: knew that. Get me out of here. He said, the

672
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: DNA test come back. You are innocent. And I just

673
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: remember sating there in a puddle. I told you, man,

674
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: I've been telling you all the time. So he said,

675
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 3: look now, this is new. Nobody's ever done. This has

676
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: been on the Capitol conviction before. So you can't tell anybody.

677
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: Don't call anybody, don't tell anybody. So I called everybody.

678
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna this is my life and I will

679
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: go live it. Well, what would you call everybody? Everybody

680
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: could Jane Miller Channel eleven News. She called everybody. When

681
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 3: it hit the press, it was all over. I was

682
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 3: big news in nineteen ninety three. In Juo Your Family,

683
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: June twenty eighth. My dad was the first call.

684
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: What do he say?

685
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: He was like, what he didn't understand, you know, he

686
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: didn't really understand. They knew that I was taking this test,

687
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: but they didn't understand. And with the implications of DNA

688
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: were They had no idea. My father's you know, a

689
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: simple man, and he just didn't understand. He said, but

690
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: we're going to get out of here.

691
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: So okay.

692
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: So now you've done exactly what your lawyer told you

693
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: not to do. You call it everybody. Everybody now knows you.

694
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: You got to be bouncing off the walls, right. And

695
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: then it's after the DNA was tested and proved that

696
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: you were innocent.

697
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: Then what happened. How long did it take to get

698
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: to trial again? And how that end up? And the

699
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: deal we made with the prosecutors.

700
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 3: If it was not me, they would have their own experts,

701
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: so they sent it to the DNA lab. It took

702
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 3: another few months. Now this is a sad part. I

703
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: can't say the other without saying this. Yeah, twenty four years.

704
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: My mother passed away just a few months but five

705
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: months before I got out, and the day President Clinton

706
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: got inaugurated. It's a bad year, a bad time of

707
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: year for me. I had just talked to her on

708
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: the phone a couple of days before I was allowed

709
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 3: to go see her body in handcuffed and shackles for

710
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: five minutes. I wouldn't know about the DNA for another

711
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 3: few months. She was my biggest fan. She's the reason

712
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: I could read. But she to write me letters and

713
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: in the PostScript she would say, write his light. If

714
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And

715
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: she never liked you to sit still. She would always say,

716
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: don't sit there like a bump on a deal. Pickle

717
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: used to baby laugh.

718
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: She was awesome. So that's it, I mean, that's really it.

719
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: It's a hard enough thing for anybody to go through.

720
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: And the idea that you were able to see her

721
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: for a grand total of five minutes and then she

722
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: was never able to see you as a free man again,

723
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: and that you were there.

724
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: In this She always knew though. She always knew I

725
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 3: was innocent. She would tell me all the time, and

726
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 3: my father would constantly ask me, because you know, he's

727
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 3: come from a different error. Police officers don't arrest you

728
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 3: for just nothing. I didn't say it was nothing, but

729
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: I didn't do it. Then it was different. But he

730
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 3: told him all to go to hell early on because

731
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 3: he knew that it was screwing me around, and it was.

732
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 2: It was obvious.

733
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: So that weekend William Sessis was the director of the

734
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 3: FBI called Ann Brokes to prosecuting attorney and said, your

735
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: DNA tests have come back for Bloodsworth and it's not him.

736
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: We've not only agreed with his experts, but we found

737
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: another spot of semen that matches the same guy that

738
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 3: you have in the database or in the DNA, and

739
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: it's not Bloodsworth. You better let him out, you said,

740
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: an innocent man to death row into prison, and on

741
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, I stepped out of

742
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: free man.

743
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: I want to go back and talk a little bit

744
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: about the actual killer, okay, and how they missed him

745
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: the first time, and how you actually ended up interacting

746
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: with him in prison, which is really a strange twist

747
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: of this whole story.

748
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: Right, What was the guy's name? Who was the actual

749
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: killer of this poor little girl?

750
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: Kimberly shee r. Ruffner was let go two weeks before

751
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: Dawn's murder for two attempted rapes the two other little

752
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: girls a year prior. The children wouldn't testify against him.

753
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: He had dressed up like a security guard and tried

754
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 3: to accost him in the bushes. They were scared wouldn't

755
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: testify against him, so the judge had to let him go,

756
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: and he used to frequent this area. From what I

757
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 3: understand now, remember what I told you that the original

758
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: suspect was reportedly six foot five, curly blond hair, bushy mustache,

759
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: tan skin, and skinny. Roughner's five foot six and one

760
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty pounds. Wow, so witness identifications big time now.

761
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: That police report about him came in eight days before

762
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: I was arrested. The cops never went back to look.

763
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 3: They were too busy trying to fit the square peg

764
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 3: in a round hole. See, he lived in Baltimore City,

765
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: which wasn't far from the county line. He used to

766
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 3: cross the county line. Back in those days, cops wouldn't

767
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 3: talk each other for whatever the reason, but they wouldn't chat.

768
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: And that's how this thing happened. Ten years later, when

769
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: they went to search it for this guy they did,

770
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 3: they opened up the cold case. Major Rusting Price is

771
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: the one that's responsible for capturing Roughner. The surreal part

772
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 3: of the story is the fact that he ended up

773
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 3: being locked up.

774
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: He committed a subsequent crime after they wrongfully convicted you

775
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: or wrought arrested you even he was free.

776
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was arrested three weeks after me for attempted

777
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 3: rape and murder of a woman at Fell's Point, where

778
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 3: he busted in her door and tried to cut the throat.

779
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: She got the knife from him, what I understand, and

780
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: stabbed in the foot. Cops followed to his house from

781
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: the blood trail, and that's how he got He got forty.

782
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,479
Speaker 1: Five years to that right, and that woman never needed

783
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: to go through this in the first place. Had the

784
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: work been done in a different and a better way,

785
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: they would have gotten the real guy. So he ended

786
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: up committing this another horrible crime a few weeks after

787
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: he had got literally gotten away with murder, and he

788
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: ends up in the same prison with you. But you

789
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: don't know it, obviously, but he does, right, He knows

790
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: who you are, That's what he says. He said he

791
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: didn't know I was in there for what he did,

792
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: but I don't believe. So how weird is that looking

793
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: back and realizing that this is a guy who's on

794
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: the same literally living with you, who was a guy

795
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: who was responsible for not only for this horrible crime

796
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: against humanity, but also for a second horrible crime against humanity,

797
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: which is putting it inst the man almost almost having

798
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: you executed for the crime that he committed.

799
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: They asked him in court.

800
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 3: He was charged with her murder and he got life

801
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: because I didn't want him to get to death penalty,

802
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: because I wanted him to stay alive for the rest

803
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: of his life and think about what he's done.

804
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: Kirk, When you were released from prison, can you paint

805
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: a picture for us of what that was like.

806
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: Well, it's I'm sitting in the prison and they had

807
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: the warden let me on out, and he gave me

808
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 3: my little bit of commissary money and they give you

809
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: a check, and so he gave me the money and

810
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: I went on out and they drove me from the

811
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 3: prison to the top of the hill. When I hit

812
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 3: the top of the hill, he had a limousine waiting

813
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 3: for him from ninety eight Rock. It was a local

814
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: rock station. It was my dad and me and this

815
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 3: lady friend. They kept coming to see me in prison.

816
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: We were into limo and they had a case of

817
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: beer in a limo, and.

818
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: The limo it was just great. It's almost like well,

819
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: from the outhouse to the penthouse.

820
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I'm moving on up like George and Wheezy.

821
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: So they take you into limo did you go get

822
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: something to eat?

823
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: Did you go? Woh man? They had.

824
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: They took me around the city. There was a baseball park.

825
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: They had pizza and stuff for me. He took me

826
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: for a little spin around. Okay, so he drove around.

827
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 3: Eventually wanted at your dad's house. Yeah, And then what happened?

828
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 3: At four in the morning. There's nobody home. Dad's gone,

829
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: My mother's you know, not there, but she's everywhere to

830
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 3: all her stuff was around and there was a toaster

831
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: sitting up on the counter. So I hadn't had toasts

832
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: in ten years. So I got the bread out, I

833
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 3: got the jelly in the butter, and I put this

834
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: toast in there and buttered it up. And it was

835
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 3: eating this thing, and I started laughing. I just thought

836
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: it was funny. I picked up the phone and I

837
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 3: called Bob Moore and my lawyer at four o'clock in

838
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: the more, say Bob, guess what I'm doing. He said,

839
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 3: I don't care. Okay, tell me what are you doing?

840
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: I said, I'm eating a piece of toast. And that's

841
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 3: what he started doing. He started left. And you never

842
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: realize how important a piece of toast is to you

843
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 3: when you don't have it when liberty is taking away.

844
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: So you come out.

845
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because for as long as I've been

846
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: doing this work, one of the questions people asked me

847
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: the most frequently is what happens to the exoneries when

848
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: they get out? Do they get a big check? And

849
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: what does the state do for them? And your case

850
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: is frighteningly common in terms of the fact that it

851
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 1: relied totally, really on wrangfuel. I was his identification, which

852
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: is a factor in seventy five percent of the wrongful

853
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: conviction cases. Not the only factor in everything, but in

854
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of cases it's a factor.

855
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: But back to this, so were you compensated?

856
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: I was in Maryland, which I understand today they're introducing

857
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 3: a new bill that would pass some of the stuff

858
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 3: I had to go through in order to get my compensation.

859
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: So you would, you would automatically, if you get pardoned

860
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: from the governor, go right to compensation after you've been

861
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: erroneously if you've been erroneously convicted of anything. So that's

862
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: something I support. But there is no federal compensation for

863
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted peoples, and I think there should be, And

864
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 3: there's no innocent measure and no nothing. As a matter

865
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: of fact, you don't have any right once you're convicted

866
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 3: to innocence anymore. You can argue that in a court

867
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: of appeals that you're innocent only after a certain period

868
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: of time after.

869
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: You've been convicted.

870
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 3: You have anywhere from thirty to ninety to so many

871
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: days to do that. You know you're asking for a

872
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 3: new trial based on newly discovered evidence. You can do that,

873
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 3: but you cannot argue innocence in a court of appellate court.

874
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: I find that very bizarre, especially with the death penalty

875
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: looming over people. We need compensation. These men and women

876
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 3: need every dime and every bit of love we can

877
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: give them.

878
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: And I mean, don't amen to that.

879
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 1: But back to your case, how long did it take

880
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: you to get compensated and how much did you get?

881
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: I got three hundred thousand dollars for my almost nine

882
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: years of imprisonment in two years on death row, which

883
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: they never really did. They never really calculated the death

884
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: row time as being a torturous act. So he gave

885
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: me three hundred thousand dollars, which comes to about three

886
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 3: dollars and seventy two cents an hour.

887
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: So you end up getting compensated, and then things get

888
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: even more interesting, right because of the work that you

889
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: have chosen to do and that you have done so effectively,

890
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: because Kirk has been one of the most effective advocates

891
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: meeting with government officials, politicians. And actually you have a

892
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: bill named after you, don't I do.

893
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: It's called the Bludsworth's Post Conviction DNA Testing Program. And

894
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: what does that do.

895
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: It's a federal grant program which gives moneies to states

896
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 3: to pay for post conviction DNA testing. So that's a

897
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: federal law. That's a federal law. Yeah, but states can

898
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: get it. And it's called the Bloodsworth Program. Is named

899
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 3: by Patrick Leahy and Orren Hatch, who took us eight

900
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: years to pass that piece of legislation. And I'm pretty

901
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: proud of it. There's a fella in Kentucky named Mike,

902
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 3: I can't pronounce his last name. He got out on it,

903
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: Thomas Hainsworth from Virginia. And there was another fella just

904
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: recently got out from the Bloodsworth grant in Illinois.

905
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: I believe have you gotten a chance to meet those guys.

906
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: I got to meet both Thomas and Mike.

907
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: But there's like thirty others, you know, so they've they've

908
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: gotten out of prison because some states, say, like Kentucky,

909
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: don't have the monies to pay for these testings. Like

910
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: Kentucky's public defender system is non existence. Basically, they have

911
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 3: a couple hundred dollars to represent somebody. They don't have

912
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: any money. So, and Thomas Hainsworth was in there for

913
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: twenty some years and now he works for the Attorney

914
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: General's office in Richmond.

915
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 2: Wow, so God bless him. How about that? Yeah, I

916
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: take that one.

917
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I got to take a minute to process

918
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: that information. But what an exciting and what an incredible

919
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: feeling that must be.

920
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: Oh, I have to say that was one of the

921
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 2: shining moments in my life.

922
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: So, Kirk, You've also done a lot of work actually

923
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: on getting rid of the death penalty.

924
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, help end it in Maryland. I've also worked in

925
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: New Jersey which ended it, New Mexico. I did some

926
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: behind the scenes stuff Connecticut, Delaware. I've seen it fall

927
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: in several states, and I worked very hard in Nebraska

928
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: and California last year and they fell.

929
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm going to come back. I'm not

930
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: gonna let.

931
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: Them in Nebraska and California were really terrible results.

932
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: Here's an example of the government, I think putting too

933
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 3: much pressure on a thing because they're diametrically opposed with

934
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 3: the elected legislature of the people. The people voted for

935
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 3: that they vetoed and override his veto. Governor Ricketts decided

936
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: to do it and spend money because his family's got

937
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 3: a lot of money to reinstate the death penalty rights.

938
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: Maybe just backshot kirk So in the basket.

939
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: What happened in the last election was that the legislature

940
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: overturned the death penalty, eliminated it, governor vetoed it, the

941
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: legislature overrode the governor's veto, and then the governor financed

942
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: a referendum and got and ran all these ads and

943
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: got people riled up or whatever he did, and then

944
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: got the public to vote on a referendum which reinstated

945
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: the death penalty. I mean, he really wants to execute people,

946
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: you know. I always find it strange too, I mean

947
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: a lot. The one thing I can't relate to is

948
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: people that are pro life and pro death penalty, Like

949
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: I can't.

950
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: I don't see how those two match up.

951
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: But that's me and of course, in California, we had

952
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: the other problem, which is that they passed this horrible,

953
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: horrible referendum which is like a speed up the death

954
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: penalty referendum, which basically guarantees that we're going to execute

955
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: a bunch of more innocent people.

956
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: And billions and billions of dollars have flowed through that

957
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 3: system in California and they've done nothing. They have seven

958
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty five death row people in the state

959
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 3: of California and they're just housing these people.

960
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: They'll die of old age before they die in the gas.

961
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: Right, which makes it all symbolic and weird and ridiculous.

962
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't be around somebody like Kirk or

963
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: Sunny Jacobs or any of the other death row dexigneries

964
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: and not feel a deep anger and just a burning

965
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: desire to eliminate the death penalty when you know, not

966
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: only have we exonerated over twenty innocent people with DNA

967
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: from death row, but also we know that a number,

968
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: a large number of innocent people have been executed in

969
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: this country. And to me, the number one is too big.

970
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: I don't care what your motivations are, it is morally

971
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: reprehensible to accept the idea that we're going to execute

972
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: even one innocent person. So you've done a lifetime's worth

973
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: of work. I'm fixing the system so people can get

974
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: access to DNA testing nationwide. You had to bill named

975
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: after you. You've helped abolish the death penalty in a

976
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: whole bunch of states. It's an incredible series of accomplishments.

977
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: And now the guy who was the crab fisherman is

978
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: now in another unlikely to I know if you look

979
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: at him, you say that if I had to make

980
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: a list, if I just met you, and I'm going

981
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: to make a list of somebody said what's the least

982
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: likely profession that this guy could be in, I'd probably

983
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: say ballet dance would probably be number one, and number

984
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: two would probably be jewelry designer.

985
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: Right, but you don't dance, No, but not make jewelry.

986
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: Make jewelry. So let's talk about that because I want to.

987
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: I want to give a plug because I've seen some

988
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: of the jewelry and it's incredible. I swear to guy,

989
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: you must have some fairies living there or something that

990
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 1: help you, or elves.

991
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: The Keeblers are out of business. Yeah, I don't know

992
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: how to hell you do it. I mean your hands

993
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: are too damn big, but anyway, go ahead.

994
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 3: So well, as it turns out, you really need some

995
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 3: strong hands to bend silver or gold. And I have

996
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: a business. It's called Bloodstones. It's a B l o

997
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 3: O D S S t O n e s dot

998
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: com and I've been doing it for two years. I

999
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 3: went to Revere Academy in San Francisco. Four hundred and

1000
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 3: some YouTube videos later, and you got Bloodstones, and so

1001
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 3: I make everything. The only thing I don't work in

1002
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: right now is platinum.

1003
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: So give me that website again, just for people, bloodstones

1004
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: dot com. It's b l o O D S S

1005
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: t O n e s dot com. Go take a

1006
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: look at it. You'll be happy you did. You're gonna

1007
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: need some some gifts, I'm sure coming up for whatever

1008
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 1: holiday or whatever birthday for a loved one. And Kirk's

1009
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: doing an incredible thing now. He's actually making rings for exanarees,

1010
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: which are good.

1011
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 3: Well, that's soon to come out. That's soon to come out.

1012
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 3: And this is since I'm on your show, and to

1013
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 3: break this out because they don't they don't know this

1014
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 3: this ring. It will be free to any exonerie, death

1015
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: row or otherwise in the United States.

1016
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can wear it and I'm sure they'll

1017
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: wear it with pride.

1018
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: And it's also it's a beautiful it's a beautiful piece

1019
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: of you on top of that, So check out Bloodstones

1020
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: dot com. Last question, Kirk, for people who are listening,

1021
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: who are feeling the same sort of burning desire that

1022
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 1: I have after listening to you speak to get out

1023
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: there and do something to make a difference, what would

1024
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: you recommend they do? Is there a website they can

1025
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: go to? Is there what can they write letters? What

1026
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: should they be doing?

1027
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 4: Well?

1028
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: I have an organization that I deal with two in

1029
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 3: their death row survivors. That's Witnessed Innocence.

1030
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: Dot org, Witness to Innocence dot ORGNISCE dot org, Witness

1031
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: to Innocence dot org.

1032
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: Got it and you can go to them and check

1033
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 2: it out.

1034
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 3: But I would really ask people to donate to the

1035
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 3: Innocence projects and the Witness Innocence and these type of things,

1036
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 3: and really whatever endeavor that axonneries have in life, you

1037
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 3: should support them and to try to help them and

1038
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 3: better themselves. And Alas and this is my plug for myself.

1039
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: My film is out. It's on DVD.

1040
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 3: It's called Bloodsworth and Innocent Man and you can get

1041
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 3: it at iTunes or on demand and it's out now.

1042
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: So oh man, I didn't even know that. So I'm

1043
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,399
Speaker 2: going to get that Blood's Worth an Innocent Man. I'm

1044
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: going to watch.

1045
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 3: Stories on there and it's from my point of view,

1046
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: so you'll be able to check it in. It's done

1047
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 3: by Gregory Bain. He's did a really good job. You

1048
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 3: have to check it out.

1049
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to check it out. I hope you

1050
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: will too. Blood's Worth an Innocent Man. It's been really

1051
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: an extraordinary experience for me having you on the show,

1052
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: and I hope you'll never stop doing what you're doing

1053
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: because we need you out there is As I said,

1054
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 1: you're one of the most effective advocates I've ever seen,

1055
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: and the record speaks for itself.

1056
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1057
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps.

1058
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and

1059
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1060
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: important cause and helping.

1061
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,919
Speaker 2: To prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

1062
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1063
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.

1064
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1065
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1066
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1067
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1068
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one