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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Brandon Giddins is a brilliant fiddle and banjo player

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Speaker 1: who's one of the few musicians alive today trained in

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Speaker 1: the centuries old black string band tradition. Giddins won a

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Speaker 1: Grammy as a co founder and lead singer of the

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Speaker 1: Carolina Chocolate Drops in twenty eleven, and after venturing off

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Speaker 1: on her own, she was awarded at MacArthur Genius Green

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Speaker 1: for exploring the complexities of the African American influence on

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Speaker 1: folk and country music. Ah Sha Shallna Aha Shallna. De

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Speaker 1: Mond B. Goods get Ins is a North Carolina native,

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Speaker 1: but now lives in Ireland, not far from her partner

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Speaker 1: of Francesco Teresi. During Lockdown, the duo recorded their latest album,

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Speaker 1: They're Calling Me Home, which was in part influenced by

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Speaker 1: Joe Thompson, who taught Gettons his family's traditional fiddle style

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Speaker 1: that can be traced back to the eighteen hundreds. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, Bruce Headlam talks to Gettons about her decision

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Speaker 1: to write from a cultural point of view rather than

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Speaker 1: her own. Gettens also talks about how she's been able

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Speaker 1: to maintain a living connection to the near extinct black

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Speaker 1: square dance players and we'll hear a play a banjo

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Speaker 1: style that originated in West Africa. This is broken record

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Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmondson. Here's

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Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam with Rhiannon Giddins. Thank you all so much

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Speaker 1: for doing this. We're talking about your new album and

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Speaker 1: your last album and anything else. You want to talk

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Speaker 1: about your ballet. You wrote a ballet too, didn't you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wrote a ballet an opera. I didn't know about

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Speaker 1: the opera. What was that, Well, it was supposed to

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Speaker 1: debut last year, and then it was going to debut

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Speaker 1: this year, and that's going to debut next year. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's called Omar. It's for this Plato festival, and it's

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Speaker 1: about Omara Ben Said, who was a Koranic scholar thirty

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Speaker 1: seven years old, captured, sold from Senegal, brought over on

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Speaker 1: the Middle Passage and ended up enslaved for fifty years

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Speaker 1: until his death in North Carolina. He wrote his autobiography

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Speaker 1: in Arabic. Wow, that sounds incredible. Yeah, it's just the

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of stories within that

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Speaker 1: one story. So yeah, you know, this new record is

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Speaker 1: almost all you know, old material, traditional, traditional songs or

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Speaker 1: songs that were written you know, in that style or

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Speaker 1: recent and all of my original material has been gone

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Speaker 1: into an opera last a couple of years. So I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, hopefully people will be okay, there's it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not a it's not an original writer. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like, it's never been my bag anyway

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Speaker 1: writing stuff. Well, it's not. It's not my It's never

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Speaker 1: been my focus. Like if if the story is told

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Speaker 1: best through an original song, I'll do it. But I

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Speaker 1: was an interpreter for years before I ever thought about

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Speaker 1: writing songs, So I'm never sitting down going Okay, I

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Speaker 1: need to write a new album. It's like if there's

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Speaker 1: no inspiration to write the song, and there often isn't

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Speaker 1: because it's just there's so many great songs out there already.

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Speaker 1: There's so much great music, so it has to be something. Really,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I can tell in a way that's

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Speaker 1: you know, specific to me. That means, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: just not going to write for the sick of writing.

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Speaker 1: Was it hard for you to start writing having been

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Speaker 1: an interpreter for so long? No, because I you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't really write about myself off I've only written

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Speaker 1: a couple of songs from my points of view, and

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Speaker 1: they're not on any of my records. You know, I

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Speaker 1: write from a cultural point of view, from other people's

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Speaker 1: point of view, and those are the songs that, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they started to come out, it was those kind

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Speaker 1: of songs like Julie, like at the Purchaser's Option, like

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Speaker 1: you know, these very specific trying to highlight black and

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Speaker 1: mostly female voices. You know that I feel like I

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Speaker 1: need to be highlighted, and a lot of times they

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Speaker 1: come through as as real spiritual kind of events, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have written songs like I wrote usually

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Speaker 1: with partners, like with people like I wrote all of

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Speaker 1: my most of my Nashville songs with my songwriting partner

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Speaker 1: from Louisiana, Dirk Powell. You know that that I could do.

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, like I can co write songs

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Speaker 1: that I'm not connected to, like in a cultural way,

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Speaker 1: you know, but just coming from me, I did want MPR.

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Speaker 1: It was like songs you know, coming out of the

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Speaker 1: experiences of lockdown, and it was I found it very torturous,

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, I was just like, who cares about what

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling? Like it's my feelings and really, my life's

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Speaker 1: not that bad. What's what do I need to say here?

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Speaker 1: It was very it was a very interesting thing, and

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Speaker 1: it just solidified what I do and what I don't do.

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Speaker 1: That's a very funny thing for an artist to say, though,

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Speaker 1: who cares what I'm feeling? Well, I feel like everybody

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Speaker 1: makes their art in the way that makes sense to them,

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Speaker 1: and for me, I am the least important and interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: And what I do? You know, and it's not I

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Speaker 1: know that there's amazing songs out there that have come

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Speaker 1: out of people's experiences that have made a great difference

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Speaker 1: to people. And you know, I've enjoyed some of those songs,

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Speaker 1: and it's a totally valid way to go. It's just

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Speaker 1: not my way. Your new album is great, it's coming

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Speaker 1: out in a little while, so tell me about making

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Speaker 1: this album. You know, everybody has had to adjust to

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Speaker 1: this pandemic, like and I say, like, there's just such

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Speaker 1: huge differences between how how you know, people who are

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Speaker 1: comfortably off well off and people who aren't have had

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Speaker 1: a pandemic. You know, there's been people who've never had

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Speaker 1: to stop working interacting with people because they're on front

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Speaker 1: lines or their service industry or anything. You know, they

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Speaker 1: needed the paycheck and people who could just kind of

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Speaker 1: hold up in their houses for a year. And there's

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Speaker 1: detrimental things to all of it. But I just say

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Speaker 1: all of it with an acknowledgement of privilege. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's very important to to do that, but

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Speaker 1: to say that in general, you know, artists, musicians, there's

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Speaker 1: an additional difficulty, you know, in that are very work.

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Speaker 1: It's like where like the restaurant industry, you know, it's like,

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Speaker 1: our very work involves people. You know, we can't just

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Speaker 1: not work in an office and work at home and

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Speaker 1: do emails like it's so that's been really hard. And

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Speaker 1: then I just got the idea. We've been playing these

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Speaker 1: old folk songs that were you know, JA were just

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Speaker 1: kind of cropping up. You know, I was just finding myself,

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Speaker 1: you know, sit down, we sit down with our instruments,

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Speaker 1: and I would just start singing. And I just said,

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Speaker 1: let's just start singing these. Let's just start doing these

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Speaker 1: in the stream. You know, this is my partner, Francesco.

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Speaker 1: And it was like night and day. It was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, these songs have never been on stage

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Speaker 1: and we're doing them because we're connecting to them right now.

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Speaker 1: And I said, let's just run into the studio and

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Speaker 1: record these. I'm just feeling them right now. How did

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Speaker 1: your situation isolation, how did they inform the choice of songs? Well,

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Speaker 1: these songs, the songs of kit were coming up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're ones I hadn't done in a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: a couple of them predate. The Carolina Chocolate Drop stays

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Speaker 1: like it was just when I was just getting into

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Speaker 1: all the time music and I think, you know, and

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Speaker 1: the Italian ones were you know, they're ones that Francesco

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Speaker 1: is known for a very long time. The two main

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Speaker 1: themes of the record are like home and death. So

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Speaker 1: we're like surrounded by death every day. It's how many

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Speaker 1: people have died, like literally the news every day. And

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Speaker 1: then we're like, how many people have died in Italy?

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Speaker 1: How many people have died in the US? How many

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Speaker 1: people have died in North Carolina? Are my parents going

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Speaker 1: to die? Are we even going to be able to

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Speaker 1: go home? You know, it's just like all the stuff

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Speaker 1: that everybody's been dealing with, but like that's in the

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Speaker 1: air all the time. So these you know, stuff like, oh,

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Speaker 1: death just comes up and the idea of not being

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Speaker 1: able to go home. And so these songs are not

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Speaker 1: just any songs, but there's songs when I was really

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Speaker 1: coming into my own as as as identifying as a

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Speaker 1: North Carolinian, you know, like for me as a mixed person, multiracial,

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Speaker 1: but like, there's no there was no space for that.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, it was like black, white,

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Speaker 1: and other, and you had to check a box. And

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Speaker 1: I just I had this existential dilemma every time I

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Speaker 1: filled out a form. Did you fill it out differently?

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Speaker 1: At different times I did. Sometimes I filled all the

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Speaker 1: boxes in it depended on how much in trouble I

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Speaker 1: would get if I you know, so it was like

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Speaker 1: the sat or something. I like, you know, I've put

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Speaker 1: it black because I was. I talked to my mom

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Speaker 1: about it, and she's just like, look, you know, for

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Speaker 1: all intents and purposes in this country, you're considered black.

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Speaker 1: So that's what you put down, you know. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I circle that in. I think of my dad, who's white,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I'm just like and back then, I

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Speaker 1: didn't understand the nuance of the one drop rule and

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Speaker 1: the history and all that stuff. All I knew is

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Speaker 1: just doesn't feel right to me, you know, neither one

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Speaker 1: feels right. So when I started finding the music of

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Speaker 1: the root music of North Carolina in my early twenties,

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Speaker 1: that's when I started going, oh, I know, I know

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Speaker 1: what I am like, forget the color, I'm just like,

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Speaker 1: there's Carolinian. And it really tied me to a a

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Speaker 1: sense of belonging and a sense even though that's like

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Speaker 1: I've been living in North Carolina my whole life, other

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Speaker 1: than college, and but all of a sudden, I felt like, oh, o, candle,

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Speaker 1: what that means? And I found that through the music.

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Speaker 1: So when I sing these songs, it takes me back

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Speaker 1: to that feeling of belonging, you know, at home. It's

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Speaker 1: an interest, it's interesting. It's just like stuff I would

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Speaker 1: have never thought about recording ever, and they're coming up

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Speaker 1: and just like sing me like, Okay, what's an example

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Speaker 1: of one of the first songs that occurred to you

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Speaker 1: that you should you should put in this album for

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Speaker 1: that reason? Well, like, you know, Blackish Crow came up

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Speaker 1: and that that's what That was one of the first

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Speaker 1: old time tunes I've ever learned. I still remember learning

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Speaker 1: it from Steve Terrell wrote it. I wrote the words

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Speaker 1: down like he's a kind of a Stalhart in the

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Speaker 1: old time community in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking it was so beautiful. And then in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: it's dealing with being separated from your loved one, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I wish that I was going with you

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Speaker 1: or you were staying here, you know, and especially in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic. You know, Francesco and I

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Speaker 1: we don't live together because we have children who go

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Speaker 1: to school in different cities, so we live where they live,

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Speaker 1: and it's two and a half hours apart. So there

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Speaker 1: were times when we were locked down, like it was

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Speaker 1: serious lockdown, and like we didn't even couldn't even go

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Speaker 1: see each other. So it's just like all of those

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Speaker 1: thoughts in thinking about people who were separated, you know, continents,

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Speaker 1: separated from their loved ones and not able to go

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Speaker 1: see them, and you know, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: songs about that because we haven't always been able to

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Speaker 1: travel as easily as as we do now. That just

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Speaker 1: came up. And then it's like the combination of taking

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Speaker 1: this really old song and feeling like so it's an

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Speaker 1: old song on its own, so it just has this connection,

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Speaker 1: this kind of deep connection right to humanity. And then

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Speaker 1: it's got this additional connection that I have, you know,

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Speaker 1: as in North Carolinian and feeling like in North Carolinian

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Speaker 1: missing North Carolina. And then we're doing it in a

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Speaker 1: way that would never be done back home, you know,

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Speaker 1: the way that Francesco plays the the cello banjo, which

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Speaker 1: was originally owned by Mike Seeger. Yeah, because I knew

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Speaker 1: him and his widow when he died, Alexeia made sure

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Speaker 1: that his vast music collection, she let people that he

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Speaker 1: knew and who knew him first come pick instruments to

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Speaker 1: buy to be passed on too. And so I picked

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Speaker 1: that in in a beautiful little banjo, and that cello

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Speaker 1: banjo had been sitting in my house like I had

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Speaker 1: never played it. I didn't know why I bought it,

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Speaker 1: you know, but I just loved the sound of it,

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Speaker 1: beautiful shape. He put these strings on it that just

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Speaker 1: made it sound like a loot. And then Francesco came

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Speaker 1: to my house and picked it up and started playing it,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, well that's why I bought it.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah, And so that's all over the record,

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Speaker 1: that banjo sound what we found that banjo and in

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Speaker 1: my viola. So it's just like there's a lot wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in that. And then Eymur is bringing in Ireland

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Speaker 1: with the flute, the Irish flute, and so it was

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Speaker 1: just a really I felt so fortunate to be able

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Speaker 1: to have been able to have that time. You're in

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Speaker 1: Ireland now right, been in Ireland since last March. We

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Speaker 1: came from Australia. What's it like now to observe because

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Speaker 1: you are in North Carolinian you're an American. What's it

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Speaker 1: like to be out of the United States for now

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Speaker 1: a year? Which is probably what you didn't expect. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know. It has been hard, it's been weird. It's

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Speaker 1: part of it a little easier, you know. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of people like Baldwin who who found life abroad. It

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Speaker 1: relieved them of something well in normal days. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of a breath of fresh air to come

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Speaker 1: to Ireland, you know, because this is my work. Like

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Speaker 1: when all the stuff went down, the weight it went

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Speaker 1: down last year, you know, people were calling me up

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Speaker 1: and ask my opinions stuff. I was like, my opinion

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Speaker 1: has not changed. I've been talking about this fifteen years

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Speaker 1: go away. It's just like, I'm not surprised by any

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Speaker 1: of this, you know, But in the in the before times,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would be on the road talking about

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Speaker 1: minstrel shows, coon songs, slavery every night in my you know, interviews,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, doing this, doing that, and then I'd

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Speaker 1: come back to Ireland and just kind of take a

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Speaker 1: deep breath and it's not you know that the specter

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Speaker 1: of that. I mean, they have other issues here, but

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Speaker 1: the specter of that is not here. And I do

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Speaker 1: I definitely understand that of just being away from it

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Speaker 1: when it is your work, but that again, is different

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Speaker 1: all together than being completely unable to go back to

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Speaker 1: the well and then when all the stuff is going

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Speaker 1: on and people are protesting, and I'm just like I

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Speaker 1: have nothing to do and I can't do anything there,

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Speaker 1: you know, like all my gigs have been canceled, but

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Speaker 1: I can't even help. We'll be right back with more

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Speaker 1: from Rhiannon get Ins and Bruce Head Them. After a

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Speaker 1: quick break, We're back with more from Rhiannon Giddins. You

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Speaker 1: know the sense of missing someone in folk music from

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Speaker 1: Africa from Scotland I assume from Ireland is often about

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Speaker 1: missing people across the whole ocean. That's sort of embedded

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Speaker 1: in the music. So you must have felt that quite

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Speaker 1: strongly when you were playing some of these tunes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean them and see my family in over a year, Francesco,

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Speaker 1: like especially in the beginning, like Italy was hit really hard,

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Speaker 1: like people were dying left and right, and like he

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Speaker 1: had relatives who got sick, and you know, just the

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Speaker 1: stress of like if something happens, I can't even get there.

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Speaker 1: It comes out in funny ways in the album because

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Speaker 1: your version of I Shall not be Moved, which is

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Speaker 1: an old spiritual which has been adopted by the labor movement,

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Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, and maybe the words there are movements,

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Speaker 1: because suddenly it's a song about not being moved, not

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Speaker 1: being able to move. Almost were you thinking when you

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Speaker 1: were recording it? I recorded that because for me, that

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Speaker 1: was my connection to Joe Thompson, who was the black

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Speaker 1: fiddler from Men, North Carolina, the elder that I like

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Speaker 1: learned his family's tradition. Can you explain a little bit

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Speaker 1: of when you met him and who he was? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, Yeah, Joe Thompson was even more important than

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Speaker 1: we knew when we started going down to see him.

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Speaker 1: He was a massively important person. He was the last

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Speaker 1: of a family of black string band traditions. It had

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Speaker 1: been passed on as a family tradition. He was part

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Speaker 1: of the Thompson family band. They played for the white

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Speaker 1: and the Black square dances in his area because everybody

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Speaker 1: used to do. This is what people don't understand, because

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Speaker 1: that's a whole other reason. There's a whole other story

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Speaker 1: why people don't know that. And he was the last

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Speaker 1: of his family to be playing this music, and nobody

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Speaker 1: else had picked it up. And the people he used

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Speaker 1: to play with or were dead his you know, his

301
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Speaker 1: cousin and his brother, and so he was playing with

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Speaker 1: white musicians, you know, wonderful people in the area. And

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Speaker 1: then me and the other two original Carolina Chocolate Drops,

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Speaker 1: Dom Flemans and Justin Robinson started going down to Meban

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Speaker 1: to play with him because Meban was like forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes away from where we all lived. And he passed

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Speaker 1: on his family's tradition to us. You know. So he

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Speaker 1: lived to be ninety two, and we're incredibly lucky to

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Speaker 1: have had him because I found out later through the

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Speaker 1: work of John Jeremiah Sullivan, that he is the musical

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Speaker 1: descendant of Frank Johnson, who was a very famous black

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Speaker 1: string band musician from the eighteen hundreds and bought himself

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Speaker 1: out of slavery with his fiddle. And there's been an

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Speaker 1: oral tradition that's been passed down from Frank Johnson to Joe,

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Speaker 1: not to us. So it's just to have that connection

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Speaker 1: to the once vast, incredibly influential, super important black string

317
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Speaker 1: band tradition that's not almost completely gone, is you know,

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Speaker 1: I sometimes like hyperventilate a little bit to myself when

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Speaker 1: I think about, like how closely word of missing, you know,

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Speaker 1: having a living connection to that. So I feel the

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Speaker 1: responsibility and the importance of that quite a lot. And

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Speaker 1: so anytime there's an opportunity to include one of his

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Speaker 1: songs or to be able to talk about him and

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Speaker 1: that when in particular, I had quoted when I when

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Speaker 1: I wrote a song earlier this what was last year.

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Speaker 1: I wrote it around juneteenth and I performed it with

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Speaker 1: Yo Yoman. I did a performance of a little video

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Speaker 1: of it. It's called build a House, and it's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of lamenting about the idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: African Americans were like brought to the United States, built

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Speaker 1: so much of the United States, and then continuously are

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Speaker 1: just seems the thing that people just want us gone,

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Speaker 1: you know, And it's just like, yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: It's just I was just really um despairing of everything.

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Speaker 1: And I wrote this song and at the very and

336
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Speaker 1: it says, you know, I will not be moved. You know,

337
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Speaker 1: you brought me here to build your house. I built

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Speaker 1: the house. I wrote my own house. You burned it down.

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Speaker 1: I wrote my song, you took the song. But you

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Speaker 1: know what my will, my will will never run dry,

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Speaker 1: and I will not be moved. You know. It's a

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Speaker 1: direct quote from not just I Shall not be moved,

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Speaker 1: but from Joe. Was there something idiosyncratic or very particular

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Speaker 1: about the way he and his family played this music,

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Speaker 1: because it's you know, not all fiddlers are the same.

346
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Speaker 1: Things can be very local. Are there things you learned

347
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Speaker 1: from him that you just wouldn't have learned technically from

348
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Speaker 1: other fiddlers? Yeah, when you know, all three of us

349
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Speaker 1: were just learning all time music when we started playing

350
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Speaker 1: with Joe. So everything that I learn, everything that I

351
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Speaker 1: play now is inflected by playing with Joe and with

352
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Speaker 1: kind of absorbing that, and it's very rhythmic, it's very

353
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Speaker 1: I learned a Joe could do more with like six notes.

354
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Speaker 1: You know a lot of people get do with twenty five.

355
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Speaker 1: I mean, he just kind of an effortless being in

356
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Speaker 1: the groove with the groove. You know, there's something about

357
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Speaker 1: being a dance musician that you just cannot fake, you know,

358
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Speaker 1: and we have you know, I played for dances, and

359
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Speaker 1: so it does it does affect everything that I do,

360
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Speaker 1: and the and also the way he sang. So when

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Speaker 1: I'm singing, he had a beautiful voice and it just

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Speaker 1: kind of came out of him in this way, and

363
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Speaker 1: so that affects how I sing these kind of songs too.

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Speaker 1: And then in this particular song, the way he I

365
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Speaker 1: did it the way he does it, which you know,

366
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Speaker 1: he he didn't put a space in between the end

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Speaker 1: of one verse in the beginning of the next. So

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's a shanaa shaa be moved ashaa

369
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Speaker 1: shanna be moved like a true played. But I just

370
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Speaker 1: do that m shall not be moved climbing Jacob right,

371
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Speaker 1: So there's no space. It's not shall not be moved

372
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Speaker 1: climbing Jacob. That's what you know, that's what we usually do, right,

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Speaker 1: you have the ending and then the beginning of the

374
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Speaker 1: next thing. But there's something about that, you know, I

375
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Speaker 1: shall not be moved climbing Jacobs. Let us shall you know,

376
00:21:48,116 --> 00:21:51,876
Speaker 1: there's something about that. You know. It's very simple. But

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Speaker 1: the thing that you got from Joe was that it

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Speaker 1: never ended. You know. It was just like this rolling

379
00:21:59,996 --> 00:22:01,756
Speaker 1: river of sound and he would just kind of dip

380
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Speaker 1: his foot in it and then take his foot out.

381
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Speaker 1: Does that come out of playing for dances? That that

382
00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:09,676
Speaker 1: idea that you just keep going it comes out of

383
00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:11,916
Speaker 1: playing for dances? I think it comes out of just

384
00:22:12,116 --> 00:22:16,196
Speaker 1: being saturated in that music. Him and other old timers,

385
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Speaker 1: you know who they're they're gone, that life is over.

386
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Speaker 1: He was born into a community and he died in

387
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Speaker 1: that community, and he had a function in that community.

388
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Speaker 1: There was no thought to it. It was just like

389
00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:34,876
Speaker 1: my you know, daddy played fiddle, and then I played fiddle,

390
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Speaker 1: and you know, I played with my brother and as

391
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Speaker 1: soon as we rolled enough, we took over the dances.

392
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Speaker 1: You know. He became a performer, but he was a

393
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Speaker 1: function musician. He was a community musician, and it was

394
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Speaker 1: music that he grew up doing. And that's a that's

395
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Speaker 1: a special thing, and I would never pretend like that's

396
00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:54,836
Speaker 1: what I do. Do you think that kind of world

397
00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:57,716
Speaker 1: can exist, can coexist in the world as it is now?

398
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Speaker 1: Not everybody's waiting for the dance on Friday night. It's

399
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Speaker 1: not a necessary tradition the way it probably was for

400
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Speaker 1: many people. Oh sure, I mean that was the entertainment.

401
00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:10,916
Speaker 1: I mean the reason why it died. TV came. I mean,

402
00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:14,636
Speaker 1: as unfortunately TV is a great culture killer. It's just

403
00:23:14,716 --> 00:23:16,116
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. I mean, it's not to say

404
00:23:16,196 --> 00:23:19,476
Speaker 1: that stuff didn't survive. That it did. Obviously Joe could

405
00:23:19,476 --> 00:23:22,796
Speaker 1: still play and sing, but it wasn't it changed function

406
00:23:22,836 --> 00:23:25,596
Speaker 1: that music changed. It was then it became performance music

407
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Speaker 1: for a ticket price and mostly white people in the

408
00:23:28,756 --> 00:23:30,996
Speaker 1: audience and all this kind of stuff. And that's just

409
00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:34,076
Speaker 1: it just changes it. And it doesn't mean that it's

410
00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:37,916
Speaker 1: not as good or doesn't need to be done. It's

411
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Speaker 1: just different. Tell me why, particularly the black history of

412
00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:50,436
Speaker 1: string bands and country music hasn't survived or isn't widely known,

413
00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:53,756
Speaker 1: because that's you know, many people, you know, they look

414
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Speaker 1: at you as someone who who has really highlighted a

415
00:23:57,636 --> 00:24:00,596
Speaker 1: tradition that very few people know about, you know, the

416
00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:04,476
Speaker 1: exceptions that that you know, Johnny Cash was taught guitar

417
00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:07,556
Speaker 1: by black guitarists, so I think was Hank Williams. There's

418
00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:12,156
Speaker 1: a lot of mentors who are African American, but they

419
00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:15,316
Speaker 1: weren't well known, their students were well known. Why isn't

420
00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:18,716
Speaker 1: the African American string band tradition as well known as

421
00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:25,596
Speaker 1: the Carter family or other Mountain music? What happened in

422
00:24:25,636 --> 00:24:28,676
Speaker 1: the Carter family? Another example, you know Leslie Riddle going

423
00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,276
Speaker 1: along with him, and a lot of that music would

424
00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:33,716
Speaker 1: have come from how he wrote it down, how he

425
00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:38,356
Speaker 1: discovered it, and he's given no credit at all. No, definitely,

426
00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:41,596
Speaker 1: it's certainly no royalties. Isn't that funny? And I think

427
00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:43,956
Speaker 1: he had a lot to do with teaching Mabel how

428
00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:47,356
Speaker 1: to play the guitar, and she's that is the guitar

429
00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:51,516
Speaker 1: method for so much country music. Yep, it's it's everywhere.

430
00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:54,836
Speaker 1: We're everywhere except for you know, in the consciousness of

431
00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:58,356
Speaker 1: the majority of the people. I mean, I realized, ask,

432
00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:00,836
Speaker 1: I'm asking a long question that has a very simple answer.

433
00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:04,236
Speaker 1: It doesn't well, it has an answer, which is racism.

434
00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:08,116
Speaker 1: But no, no, it's not that. It's it's Look, I'll

435
00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:11,916
Speaker 1: give you my my perception of it. Like as I've

436
00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:14,756
Speaker 1: been researching it and giving lectures on this. I'm not

437
00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,716
Speaker 1: a I have a music degree, that's my disclaimer in

438
00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:21,156
Speaker 1: Western art music. So all of this has been self researched,

439
00:25:21,596 --> 00:25:24,196
Speaker 1: just as I'm trying to find the answers. So as

440
00:25:24,276 --> 00:25:28,076
Speaker 1: I've been doing the research, I find three reasons and

441
00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:31,916
Speaker 1: they're interconnected. Racism is one of them, absolutely, and actually

442
00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,876
Speaker 1: racism is under all of it. So in a short answer,

443
00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:39,356
Speaker 1: you are correct. But that's not enough for people because

444
00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:42,836
Speaker 1: it's it's too big. It's it's all timing and crossroads.

445
00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:45,796
Speaker 1: So that the great migration is happening. Millions of people

446
00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:48,076
Speaker 1: are leaving the south. Of course, why are they leaving

447
00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:52,156
Speaker 1: the south Racism, So that's the heart of that. But

448
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:54,276
Speaker 1: there is this mass movement of people, people moving to

449
00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:57,316
Speaker 1: the cities in the north and in the west away

450
00:25:57,356 --> 00:25:59,876
Speaker 1: from the South, and they're bringing their ways with them

451
00:25:59,916 --> 00:26:03,196
Speaker 1: to a point. But the banjo in particular is a

452
00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:08,276
Speaker 1: very specific cultural instrument as it was in eighteen hundreds

453
00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:11,356
Speaker 1: and and you know, you get to the north and

454
00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:13,796
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this other stuffs starting to happen up here,

455
00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:17,116
Speaker 1: Like I don't want to play old Grandpa's corn pone music,

456
00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:18,356
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? I want to play the

457
00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:20,636
Speaker 1: new stuff. Right. That's just a natural thing when people move.

458
00:26:22,276 --> 00:26:26,676
Speaker 1: And then you have the recording industry coming in to play.

459
00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:29,356
Speaker 1: So the recording industry is coming in in the twenties

460
00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:32,956
Speaker 1: and you have people like Ralph Pierre inventing hillbilly and

461
00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:36,796
Speaker 1: race records, like basically segregating American music at its source,

462
00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 1: right because they I mean, there was the whole idea

463
00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:43,196
Speaker 1: of recording regular people in order to sell their music

464
00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:47,396
Speaker 1: to themselves was a new thing, you know, because what

465
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:50,436
Speaker 1: was being recorded was like classical music or dance music

466
00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:52,316
Speaker 1: or this kind of stuff. So that even the idea

467
00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:55,396
Speaker 1: at the music saved a lot of music, which is great,

468
00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:57,716
Speaker 1: but it saved a lot of music through a particular lens.

469
00:26:58,276 --> 00:27:01,596
Speaker 1: And this is also what happened with Cecil Sharpe when

470
00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:05,276
Speaker 1: he came over valid collecting saying the Appalachian Mountains. And

471
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:08,756
Speaker 1: that goes into the third reason, which is blatant white

472
00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:13,076
Speaker 1: superman and a creation of a mythical white ethnicity and

473
00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:18,076
Speaker 1: character as a direct pushback against what Henry Ford, for example,

474
00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:22,356
Speaker 1: saw as the jungle music of jazz and blues and

475
00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:26,316
Speaker 1: this collusion with Jews. You know, he thought Jews were

476
00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:28,196
Speaker 1: trying to take over the I mean, it's just all

477
00:27:28,236 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 1: sorts of nasty crap. Then you have going on within

478
00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:36,116
Speaker 1: this sort of stew of white nationalism and supremacy, the

479
00:27:36,156 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 1: beginnings of the folk festivals in sort of the folk

480
00:27:39,636 --> 00:27:42,396
Speaker 1: movement as it was called at that point, and so

481
00:27:42,516 --> 00:27:46,836
Speaker 1: like built on social Sharp's discoveries of Barbari Allen or whatever,

482
00:27:46,916 --> 00:27:50,076
Speaker 1: these these direct links as they saw back to the

483
00:27:50,116 --> 00:27:53,756
Speaker 1: old country. Meanwhile, he ignored any black people he saw,

484
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:57,196
Speaker 1: hated them, called them the in word, and never recorded

485
00:27:57,236 --> 00:27:59,676
Speaker 1: any of them, even though up to twenty percent of

486
00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:01,916
Speaker 1: the people in the Appalachian Mountains were black up until

487
00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:05,036
Speaker 1: the Great Migration. So there's like in his diaries, like

488
00:28:05,076 --> 00:28:07,476
Speaker 1: he talks about like we lug the machine. We heard

489
00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:09,676
Speaker 1: about a likely family up the hill, and we lugged

490
00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:11,596
Speaker 1: the machine all the way up there, and darned if

491
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:14,076
Speaker 1: it wasn't in a houseful of in words, you know,

492
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:15,956
Speaker 1: and we had go all the way back down the hill,

493
00:28:15,996 --> 00:28:18,316
Speaker 1: didn't record them. So this is happening, and then they're

494
00:28:18,316 --> 00:28:22,996
Speaker 1: coming up with these folk fiddle competitions. Black people aren't allowed, right,

495
00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:24,516
Speaker 1: just straight up aren't allowed, even though in a lot

496
00:28:24,516 --> 00:28:26,876
Speaker 1: of places they were the best fiddlers because the black fiddler,

497
00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:29,596
Speaker 1: even more than the black banjo player, was like ubiquitous.

498
00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:32,316
Speaker 1: They were everywhere. They were the jukeboxes of the country.

499
00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:35,516
Speaker 1: The black string band is just you know, at every

500
00:28:35,556 --> 00:28:38,476
Speaker 1: function there's black string bands there. I mean, they are

501
00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:41,196
Speaker 1: the jukeboxes, you know, in the radios before. You know,

502
00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:44,036
Speaker 1: that's when square dance goes into starts getting put into

503
00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:47,596
Speaker 1: schools as like the American pastime. But what they mean

504
00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:50,316
Speaker 1: is the white American pastime, even though you know square

505
00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:53,036
Speaker 1: dance calling was most likely invented by African Americans and

506
00:28:53,076 --> 00:28:54,996
Speaker 1: that they would have been playing a lot of these dances.

507
00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:57,676
Speaker 1: It's just on and on and on and on and on.

508
00:28:57,836 --> 00:29:01,196
Speaker 1: All the first players of bluegrass not just influence, but

509
00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:04,316
Speaker 1: like we're taught by or learned from or we're coming

510
00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:07,476
Speaker 1: straight out of that. You know, what is recorded is remembered,

511
00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:10,156
Speaker 1: you know. So all of this is happening at a

512
00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:12,876
Speaker 1: time where things are being put down on wax, and

513
00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:16,556
Speaker 1: that's what lasts you know, and the imagery and what

514
00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,076
Speaker 1: they were doing in this creation of the hill building character,

515
00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:22,836
Speaker 1: which is it looks one way, it wasn't even real anyway.

516
00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:26,116
Speaker 1: I mean, like you wouldn't have any kind of fiddle

517
00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:28,196
Speaker 1: and banjo players worth their salt who would go into

518
00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:31,036
Speaker 1: a studio or go into a gig dressed like they

519
00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:33,556
Speaker 1: just wandered off the farm. You know, they made them

520
00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:36,276
Speaker 1: do that for marketing purposes, because they were creating. They

521
00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:38,716
Speaker 1: were also myth making in the mountains as well. So

522
00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 1: everybody's being made up. But what happens is that the

523
00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:47,356
Speaker 1: black not influence, but co creation of the root of

524
00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 1: all American music is forgotten and we're sort of shunts

525
00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:53,756
Speaker 1: into the you know, Okay, it's okay for us to

526
00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:56,836
Speaker 1: be in blues and jazz and stuff in spirituals because

527
00:29:56,836 --> 00:30:00,276
Speaker 1: that's coming out of our pain. Well that was the

528
00:30:00,316 --> 00:30:04,396
Speaker 1: other reason. And I'm thinking of the book Escaping the Delta,

529
00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:07,156
Speaker 1: which is about Robert Johnson, but it's about a lot

530
00:30:07,196 --> 00:30:09,596
Speaker 1: of things. And you know, the writer points out that

531
00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:14,836
Speaker 1: all of those musicians played in many many styles. Oh god,

532
00:30:14,836 --> 00:30:16,916
Speaker 1: they played it all. They could do it all, but

533
00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:20,836
Speaker 1: when it was marketed, when it was marketed, as authentic

534
00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:24,276
Speaker 1: black music. It was the blues, and that's what they

535
00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:27,556
Speaker 1: thought people wanted to hear it. Bloes was an incredibly

536
00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:31,516
Speaker 1: important art form to black people because it did express

537
00:30:31,716 --> 00:30:34,316
Speaker 1: part of a lot of people's lives. But that wasn't

538
00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:36,796
Speaker 1: the only way that they expressed themselves, you know. It

539
00:30:36,876 --> 00:30:39,756
Speaker 1: was just the popular thing and that moment and so

540
00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:41,756
Speaker 1: income these people and go, well, you listen to that,

541
00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:43,156
Speaker 1: and you listen to that, and it's like, well, we

542
00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:47,396
Speaker 1: listen to everything, actually, but it's all about capitalism. It's

543
00:30:47,436 --> 00:30:49,356
Speaker 1: all about luck. We just need to sell this stuff

544
00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:52,356
Speaker 1: the easiest way in marketing. Marketing goes in there, and

545
00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:54,476
Speaker 1: then it's like who you're seeing doing this? And then

546
00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:57,996
Speaker 1: that's the great divide begins there. You know. I think

547
00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:02,236
Speaker 1: the portion of history and musical American musical history, for me,

548
00:31:02,356 --> 00:31:04,556
Speaker 1: that is most fascinating where I think all of the

549
00:31:04,636 --> 00:31:07,996
Speaker 1: seeds of all of the stuff were planted and start

550
00:31:08,036 --> 00:31:13,956
Speaker 1: to bloom is between emancipation and the nineteen twenties. And

551
00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,356
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that's not that's not recorded. You know.

552
00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:19,476
Speaker 1: All we have is stuff that's been written about it

553
00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:21,596
Speaker 1: and people talking about it and all this kind of stuff.

554
00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:23,876
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of there's still a lot of

555
00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:27,836
Speaker 1: things we can glean from that time, but it just

556
00:31:27,876 --> 00:31:31,076
Speaker 1: takes time and smarter people than me writing books that

557
00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:34,516
Speaker 1: I can then read and come up with my my theories,

558
00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,876
Speaker 1: you know, to help people understand this, you know. But

559
00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:41,916
Speaker 1: it's also a time when a lot of music was

560
00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:45,676
Speaker 1: passed along through minstrel shows, which are a kind of,

561
00:31:46,156 --> 00:31:51,276
Speaker 1: for good reason, radioactive form of entertainment that it's hard

562
00:31:51,316 --> 00:31:53,996
Speaker 1: to come to terms with. Now. Well, what I'm finding

563
00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:55,916
Speaker 1: is that we have to we have to separate the

564
00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:59,196
Speaker 1: minstrel show and the music that went into the minstrel

565
00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,236
Speaker 1: show in a lot of ways. It's not to say

566
00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:03,716
Speaker 1: that the music that went into minstrel show is not problematic,

567
00:32:03,756 --> 00:32:08,276
Speaker 1: because it is. But there's musicians and then there's the spectacle,

568
00:32:08,916 --> 00:32:12,196
Speaker 1: and they are related. But I think what happens is

569
00:32:12,236 --> 00:32:14,516
Speaker 1: that the music gets conflated into the show and then

570
00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:15,916
Speaker 1: it's like we can't look at any of it. And

571
00:32:15,916 --> 00:32:19,676
Speaker 1: it's like I can't do that because in that music

572
00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:24,196
Speaker 1: is like our my ancestors are in that music. So

573
00:32:24,436 --> 00:32:27,476
Speaker 1: like when I pick up a book from eighteen fifty five,

574
00:32:27,876 --> 00:32:30,036
Speaker 1: the Briggs Banjo Instructor, and this is the very first

575
00:32:30,036 --> 00:32:33,716
Speaker 1: banjo instructor in the United States. Now, banjo's invented in

576
00:32:33,796 --> 00:32:37,276
Speaker 1: the Caribbean by Africans in the African descended peoples, and

577
00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:39,996
Speaker 1: then comes up to the US and only makes the

578
00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:43,556
Speaker 1: transition to white culture in the eighteen twenties, right, so

579
00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:47,356
Speaker 1: thirty years after that is the first book written. So

580
00:32:47,396 --> 00:32:50,156
Speaker 1: these all of these first generation of white banjo players,

581
00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:54,156
Speaker 1: where they getting their banjo licks, you know, from black players.

582
00:32:54,236 --> 00:32:57,596
Speaker 1: So in this book, I've learned a lot of these

583
00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:01,676
Speaker 1: tunes on a you know, a replica of banjo from

584
00:33:01,676 --> 00:33:04,396
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight, so it feels very different to a

585
00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:09,476
Speaker 1: modern banjo. And I feel so much like, okay, here

586
00:33:09,596 --> 00:33:13,036
Speaker 1: is these black banjo players are in these tunes. There's

587
00:33:13,076 --> 00:33:15,636
Speaker 1: like all this three against two you know, all of

588
00:33:15,676 --> 00:33:18,116
Speaker 1: the all of the things that go into American music

589
00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:21,676
Speaker 1: are all represented in miniature in these tunes. And three

590
00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:24,716
Speaker 1: against two is it's very that's very West African sound,

591
00:33:24,756 --> 00:33:27,876
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah? And and like as I mess with

592
00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:31,116
Speaker 1: these tunes, you know because the fifth string, that's it

593
00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:33,716
Speaker 1: right there, Like what that does to a tune, what

594
00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:36,516
Speaker 1: that does to music? Like that's why I used to

595
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:39,556
Speaker 1: get so upset. You know that myth of the of

596
00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:41,476
Speaker 1: m of a white guy inventing the fifth string. It's

597
00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,756
Speaker 1: just like I didn't know that. And the fifth string

598
00:33:44,836 --> 00:33:47,036
Speaker 1: is it always? Uh, I'm sorry, I don't know. The

599
00:33:47,076 --> 00:33:50,556
Speaker 1: banjo is it? Is it like a drone. It's a drone.

600
00:33:50,596 --> 00:33:54,996
Speaker 1: It's a short drone string and what that means for

601
00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:57,836
Speaker 1: playing and it's very unique the clawhammer style which is

602
00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:00,876
Speaker 1: called strokes style during this time. It's like go around

603
00:34:00,916 --> 00:34:02,836
Speaker 1: the world and see if you can find that. I mean,

604
00:34:02,916 --> 00:34:05,756
Speaker 1: they do it in West Africa, you know, with the

605
00:34:05,796 --> 00:34:08,316
Speaker 1: accounting and the betune doing some other things. But it's

606
00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:11,556
Speaker 1: a very unique style. You play the back back of

607
00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:15,236
Speaker 1: the first finger, the nail and the thumb and if

608
00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:18,396
Speaker 1: that's it, it's just those two things. So there's all

609
00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,836
Speaker 1: the syncopation that's built into the instrument. It's like deep, deep,

610
00:34:22,916 --> 00:34:26,556
Speaker 1: deep cultural meaning in that. And so if you throw

611
00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:29,876
Speaker 1: that away, you know, you throw away all of those

612
00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:33,396
Speaker 1: nameless you know, black banjo players. Do you have a

613
00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:35,756
Speaker 1: banjo there? Can you just show demonstrate a little bit

614
00:34:35,796 --> 00:34:37,876
Speaker 1: of the drone sound? And I don't know, if there's

615
00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:39,756
Speaker 1: a song on the album, you just want to show

616
00:34:39,836 --> 00:34:42,436
Speaker 1: us how you how you did it. So this is

617
00:34:42,516 --> 00:34:45,756
Speaker 1: my gord banjo, so it's not as not as a

618
00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:52,116
Speaker 1: steady as my minstrel banjo, but it's the same tuning.

619
00:34:52,156 --> 00:35:48,916
Speaker 1: And that's a piece from eighteen fifty five Brea expansion

620
00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:54,076
Speaker 1: instructor called hard Times, and there it is like what

621
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:57,716
Speaker 1: else do you want? That's just the one piece from that.

622
00:35:57,756 --> 00:36:00,356
Speaker 1: But can't you hear it all in there? It was beautiful, Yeah,

623
00:36:00,956 --> 00:36:03,556
Speaker 1: and you make it look very easy, and it clearly

624
00:36:03,676 --> 00:36:07,436
Speaker 1: is not. Well. I mean, the tune is actually quite simple,

625
00:36:07,476 --> 00:36:10,596
Speaker 1: but there's a lot rhythmically that can be brought out

626
00:36:10,596 --> 00:36:13,116
Speaker 1: of it. And that's where I feel like I have

627
00:36:13,196 --> 00:36:16,156
Speaker 1: a I have an interesting perspective into these tunes because

628
00:36:16,156 --> 00:36:19,716
Speaker 1: I've had the time with Joe Thompson. So you know,

629
00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:32,036
Speaker 1: like on the surface, this isn't it's a jig, you know, six,

630
00:36:32,996 --> 00:36:36,556
Speaker 1: but there's so much une du du duh in that

631
00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:39,356
Speaker 1: and it's and it's just like even when you just

632
00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:50,356
Speaker 1: take this the little short string, this fistring here, I mean,

633
00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:54,236
Speaker 1: it's like the off accents that can be pulled out

634
00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:56,796
Speaker 1: with this instrument that you can't really do with the

635
00:36:56,836 --> 00:36:58,796
Speaker 1: regular banjo because this these strings have a lot of

636
00:36:58,876 --> 00:37:01,636
Speaker 1: give and when I think about like I studied pre

637
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:06,196
Speaker 1: banjo instruments, like the accounting and how that give gives

638
00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:10,236
Speaker 1: you a bounce that then show is just the natural

639
00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:13,476
Speaker 1: syncopation in the instrument just sort of abuse everything, you

640
00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:15,196
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I'm not crazy, Like you hear that,

641
00:37:15,436 --> 00:37:49,356
Speaker 1: You're not crazy. I mean, it's just like there's all

642
00:37:49,396 --> 00:37:52,956
Speaker 1: of these tunes or have worlds in them. I hear

643
00:37:53,036 --> 00:37:57,396
Speaker 1: so many different aspects of like American culture in these tunes.

644
00:37:57,676 --> 00:38:00,836
Speaker 1: So that's really been a code It was kind of

645
00:38:00,836 --> 00:38:02,676
Speaker 1: like a I feel like it was a code breaker

646
00:38:03,276 --> 00:38:07,956
Speaker 1: for me. It was like, oh, here it is. You

647
00:38:07,996 --> 00:38:09,836
Speaker 1: know well, it's like it's like you started to hear

648
00:38:09,876 --> 00:38:12,036
Speaker 1: a different sound after you've played it a couple of bars.

649
00:38:12,116 --> 00:38:14,956
Speaker 1: It just it has its own kind of momentum or something.

650
00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:18,036
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the playing of your guitarist on

651
00:38:18,116 --> 00:38:21,596
Speaker 1: this record, Kneewel Tumbu. But he and there's a wonderful

652
00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:24,876
Speaker 1: video of you playing I think will water Bound maybe

653
00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:27,236
Speaker 1: where at some point you just you take your fiddle

654
00:38:27,356 --> 00:38:29,276
Speaker 1: bow and you kind of point at him and he's

655
00:38:29,276 --> 00:38:32,236
Speaker 1: playing these figures that they just sound like they should

656
00:38:32,236 --> 00:38:36,396
Speaker 1: go on forever. That it has their water cascading or something. Yeah,

657
00:38:36,396 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 1: it's got this whole other feeling. I wanted to ask

658
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,036
Speaker 1: you about working with him because I loved that sound

659
00:38:41,036 --> 00:38:44,236
Speaker 1: of his guitar. It was amazing um And in fact,

660
00:38:44,636 --> 00:38:46,956
Speaker 1: one of my favorite moments is in the one called

661
00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:50,556
Speaker 1: Kneewell Goes to Town. It didn't have an I had

662
00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:52,516
Speaker 1: written the tune like in a sound check at some point,

663
00:38:52,556 --> 00:38:55,196
Speaker 1: and it didn't have a title, and we were talking

664
00:38:55,196 --> 00:38:56,996
Speaker 1: about how to arrange it, and I said, well, at

665
00:38:56,996 --> 00:38:59,436
Speaker 1: this point, you know, Niewell just used to go to Town,

666
00:38:59,596 --> 00:39:01,596
Speaker 1: you know, because I knew he would just crush it.

667
00:39:01,636 --> 00:39:02,916
Speaker 1: And then we're like, that's what we should call it

668
00:39:02,956 --> 00:39:05,516
Speaker 1: Niwell because he does go to to But at the

669
00:39:05,516 --> 00:39:08,636
Speaker 1: beginning of that tune, there's this exchange between guitar and

670
00:39:08,676 --> 00:39:12,316
Speaker 1: banjo and it just sounds so there's it's just so

671
00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:14,436
Speaker 1: much stuff going on in that because it's like, here

672
00:39:14,556 --> 00:39:18,196
Speaker 1: is knew Well playing like a Western instrument that has

673
00:39:18,236 --> 00:39:22,516
Speaker 1: been adopted into Africa, you know, and there's a whole different,

674
00:39:23,196 --> 00:39:25,636
Speaker 1: you know, ways of playing the guitar in different parts

675
00:39:25,676 --> 00:39:28,116
Speaker 1: of Africa. You know, that comes straight out of that

676
00:39:28,196 --> 00:39:31,996
Speaker 1: lute tradition of like engoni or a kora or you know,

677
00:39:32,036 --> 00:39:33,756
Speaker 1: all of the stuff. Then all of these things sort

678
00:39:33,796 --> 00:39:36,716
Speaker 1: of being put onto the guitar, and there I am

679
00:39:36,716 --> 00:39:40,476
Speaker 1: playing the banjo, which is a descendant of those same

680
00:39:40,596 --> 00:39:43,436
Speaker 1: instruments that would have been the inspiration for where some

681
00:39:43,476 --> 00:39:46,236
Speaker 1: of the guitar work is coming from. I would assume,

682
00:39:46,276 --> 00:39:48,436
Speaker 1: like I don't know Knewell's story, but I'm just my

683
00:39:48,556 --> 00:39:51,156
Speaker 1: general knowledge of people that I've heard play the guitar

684
00:39:51,156 --> 00:39:54,796
Speaker 1: who come from you know, that area, and it's just

685
00:39:55,796 --> 00:39:58,356
Speaker 1: for me. That's what I love so much is when

686
00:39:58,396 --> 00:40:01,156
Speaker 1: that happens, because like it's just different people are synthesizing

687
00:40:01,996 --> 00:40:05,156
Speaker 1: stuff and then you when you meet you kind of realize, oh,

688
00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:08,396
Speaker 1: there's this whole, this huge circle that just happened, and

689
00:40:08,556 --> 00:40:10,796
Speaker 1: we just completely at the circle. Is amazing. You know.

690
00:40:11,396 --> 00:40:15,796
Speaker 1: This is like me kind of going as far back

691
00:40:15,796 --> 00:40:20,316
Speaker 1: as I can as a musician to my black ancestors

692
00:40:20,316 --> 00:40:22,756
Speaker 1: who played the banjo, the closest I can get to

693
00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:24,916
Speaker 1: touching them other than through Joe, you know, that's the

694
00:40:24,956 --> 00:40:28,476
Speaker 1: other way. So I'm going through the white man's book,

695
00:40:29,196 --> 00:40:32,636
Speaker 1: you know, and then through the oral, the black oral

696
00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:35,796
Speaker 1: tradition through Joe. And so between those two approaches, I've

697
00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:39,556
Speaker 1: kind of found something that's my own, but that feels

698
00:40:39,596 --> 00:40:42,756
Speaker 1: that it's connected in some way. We'll be right back

699
00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:45,556
Speaker 1: with Rannon Giddins and Bruce had them after this break.

700
00:40:49,676 --> 00:40:52,996
Speaker 1: We're back with Rannon Giddins performing the Appellation Banjo song.

701
00:40:53,396 --> 00:41:35,076
Speaker 1: Georgia buck George Buckers Dead. That's what he said. Don't

702
00:41:35,196 --> 00:41:41,876
Speaker 1: put no shuttling in my bread. George Buckers Dead. That's

703
00:41:42,036 --> 00:41:46,076
Speaker 1: what he said. Don't you put no shuttling in my bread?

704
00:42:04,396 --> 00:42:08,916
Speaker 1: George Bucks Dead. That's what he said. Don't you leave.

705
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:13,996
Speaker 1: Let your woman have her way. If she has her way,

706
00:42:14,476 --> 00:42:18,436
Speaker 1: she will go stay all day. Don't let your woman

707
00:42:18,716 --> 00:42:41,796
Speaker 1: have her way. George bus stay. That's what he say.

708
00:42:41,836 --> 00:42:46,316
Speaker 1: Don't you put no shanting in my bread? Don't you

709
00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:50,196
Speaker 1: put no shaning in my bread? Now? Na, now, don't

710
00:42:50,236 --> 00:43:33,476
Speaker 1: you put no shutting in my brain? That was fantastic. Well,

711
00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:37,836
Speaker 1: Joe Thompson, there you have drawn a lot of attention

712
00:43:37,876 --> 00:43:42,716
Speaker 1: to this tradition that people didn't generally know. I mean,

713
00:43:42,756 --> 00:43:45,156
Speaker 1: academics probably knew about it, but a lot of people didn't.

714
00:43:45,476 --> 00:43:48,236
Speaker 1: And you know, and it informs so much of your playing,

715
00:43:48,956 --> 00:43:51,836
Speaker 1: you know. So you've got tradition and then you've got

716
00:43:52,836 --> 00:43:55,596
Speaker 1: the individual talent that's you, and you want to do

717
00:43:55,796 --> 00:44:01,156
Speaker 1: different things with it. Sometimes when people, you know, particularly

718
00:44:01,196 --> 00:44:06,156
Speaker 1: something you know as as as political as rediscovering this

719
00:44:06,356 --> 00:44:10,876
Speaker 1: surveying of African American culture, they want it curated and

720
00:44:10,916 --> 00:44:13,996
Speaker 1: they kind of they don't want it messed with. That

721
00:44:14,316 --> 00:44:17,476
Speaker 1: goes for that echoes for all kinds of traditions, um,

722
00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:21,076
Speaker 1: you know, as you know, in sort of standard country music,

723
00:44:21,716 --> 00:44:25,556
Speaker 1: they want since yeah, yes, since since it started, it's

724
00:44:25,556 --> 00:44:28,276
Speaker 1: been well, that's not real country music. Do you feel

725
00:44:28,276 --> 00:44:31,756
Speaker 1: sometimes that being such a strong part of that tradition

726
00:44:32,356 --> 00:44:36,276
Speaker 1: almost feels not like a burden, but it feels that

727
00:44:36,356 --> 00:44:38,516
Speaker 1: it could be confining for what you want to do

728
00:44:38,596 --> 00:44:42,076
Speaker 1: with it. You know, justin one of the original Chocolate

729
00:44:42,156 --> 00:44:44,636
Speaker 1: Drops Along, you know, one of the co founders along

730
00:44:44,636 --> 00:44:47,116
Speaker 1: with myself and Tom Fleman's, you know, he used to say,

731
00:44:47,156 --> 00:44:50,756
Speaker 1: tradition is a guide, not a jailer. And I think

732
00:44:51,116 --> 00:44:56,076
Speaker 1: that's an important statement. Tradition has never been static. And

733
00:44:56,116 --> 00:45:01,436
Speaker 1: this is what people conveniently forget is that until recorded,

734
00:45:01,676 --> 00:45:04,516
Speaker 1: until we had had the opportunity, you know, the ability

735
00:45:04,596 --> 00:45:09,716
Speaker 1: to put music on a record, it was only through

736
00:45:09,796 --> 00:45:13,076
Speaker 1: human memory and paper, and we all know that both

737
00:45:13,116 --> 00:45:16,996
Speaker 1: of those things, despite what people say about music notation

738
00:45:17,676 --> 00:45:21,516
Speaker 1: and and you know, with some music are notoriously unreliable.

739
00:45:22,076 --> 00:45:25,916
Speaker 1: Human memory is what it is. And so even in

740
00:45:25,916 --> 00:45:28,236
Speaker 1: the days of long recall, which still happened. I mean,

741
00:45:28,276 --> 00:45:31,796
Speaker 1: there's jellies and you know, um coort musicians or whatever

742
00:45:31,796 --> 00:45:34,836
Speaker 1: who can still remember vast lineages and stuff. But there

743
00:45:34,956 --> 00:45:37,836
Speaker 1: is going to be slippage, there's going to be changed,

744
00:45:37,836 --> 00:45:43,436
Speaker 1: there's going to be disruption, there's going to be individual talent.

745
00:45:43,716 --> 00:45:46,156
Speaker 1: So there's all of that going on. So it's just

746
00:45:46,196 --> 00:45:49,236
Speaker 1: like I think that it's always a moving target. And

747
00:45:49,556 --> 00:45:51,476
Speaker 1: a lot of times the people who are gatekeeping. Not

748
00:45:51,476 --> 00:45:53,156
Speaker 1: to say that there aren't people from within the tradition

749
00:45:53,196 --> 00:45:55,436
Speaker 1: who do that. There are, but it always feels to

750
00:45:55,436 --> 00:45:58,716
Speaker 1: me the people there's always more people from coming from without.

751
00:45:59,436 --> 00:46:02,236
Speaker 1: You know, this especially happened in the Old Time Community.

752
00:46:02,276 --> 00:46:04,196
Speaker 1: A lot of people came to the Old Time Community

753
00:46:04,196 --> 00:46:06,836
Speaker 1: from the north or from other places looking for something

754
00:46:07,676 --> 00:46:10,236
Speaker 1: and they found it, whatever that is. And in a

755
00:46:10,276 --> 00:46:13,596
Speaker 1: lot of cases that meant that some music was saved

756
00:46:13,796 --> 00:46:15,796
Speaker 1: and they took care of people, and that's wonderful, But

757
00:46:15,836 --> 00:46:18,516
Speaker 1: in a lot of instances it also came along with, well,

758
00:46:18,516 --> 00:46:21,916
Speaker 1: we know what it is, and you know it's this way.

759
00:46:22,036 --> 00:46:23,996
Speaker 1: You play the tune this way because that's how Tommy

760
00:46:24,036 --> 00:46:26,556
Speaker 1: played it, you know, and it's or that's what it's

761
00:46:26,596 --> 00:46:28,796
Speaker 1: on the recording. And it's just like, man, he may

762
00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:30,756
Speaker 1: have been eighty years old when that recording was made.

763
00:46:30,796 --> 00:46:32,276
Speaker 1: He could have been drunk that day. He could have

764
00:46:32,276 --> 00:46:34,236
Speaker 1: forgotten the tune that day. He could have been ordinary

765
00:46:34,316 --> 00:46:37,716
Speaker 1: that day. Like that's only the moment of that performance

766
00:46:38,236 --> 00:46:41,156
Speaker 1: of the tune, you know. It's just like, none of

767
00:46:41,196 --> 00:46:43,196
Speaker 1: this is in stone, even though people think it is

768
00:46:43,236 --> 00:46:46,036
Speaker 1: because it's been recorded down. It's just like just that

769
00:46:46,156 --> 00:46:49,396
Speaker 1: moment of that day was recorded down. And I just think,

770
00:46:50,036 --> 00:46:52,236
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have people who want a

771
00:46:52,316 --> 00:46:54,596
Speaker 1: gatekeep and who want to keep people out, even though

772
00:46:54,596 --> 00:46:57,476
Speaker 1: they themselves were welcome in by those very old timers

773
00:46:57,476 --> 00:47:00,436
Speaker 1: that they're protecting from other people. Right. We had people

774
00:47:00,476 --> 00:47:03,556
Speaker 1: tell us, don't teach Joe new tunes because he wanted

775
00:47:03,596 --> 00:47:06,076
Speaker 1: to learn Soywood Mountain and we were teaching him. Sol it,

776
00:47:06,116 --> 00:47:07,996
Speaker 1: don't teach Joe new tunes. I'm like, the man is

777
00:47:07,996 --> 00:47:11,716
Speaker 1: a musician. He's not a relic. He's not a museum piece.

778
00:47:12,116 --> 00:47:14,596
Speaker 1: It's not going to ruin him. He already plays different

779
00:47:14,596 --> 00:47:15,996
Speaker 1: than he did ten years ago. He had a stroke,

780
00:47:16,116 --> 00:47:18,876
Speaker 1: for God's sake, like he is who he is right now.

781
00:47:19,356 --> 00:47:21,956
Speaker 1: And that's what we got, and it's amazing. We have it.

782
00:47:22,476 --> 00:47:27,636
Speaker 1: Your version of O Death, which is fabulous. You it

783
00:47:27,676 --> 00:47:30,676
Speaker 1: starts with death Death in the morning. And I had

784
00:47:30,716 --> 00:47:35,876
Speaker 1: never heard that line and in fact, the only place

785
00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:39,436
Speaker 1: because that's not how Stanley does it, Ralph Stanley or

786
00:47:39,436 --> 00:47:41,716
Speaker 1: a lot of other people, is that a standard way

787
00:47:41,716 --> 00:47:44,476
Speaker 1: of doing it? What was the origin of you choosing

788
00:47:44,516 --> 00:47:46,876
Speaker 1: to put in the morning line. I got it from

789
00:47:46,876 --> 00:47:49,316
Speaker 1: Bessie Jones, you know, because I had heard the Ralph

790
00:47:49,356 --> 00:47:52,436
Speaker 1: Stanley version like everybody else and oh brother, years and

791
00:47:52,516 --> 00:47:56,276
Speaker 1: years ago, and of course knew that version, but I

792
00:47:56,276 --> 00:47:58,796
Speaker 1: stumbled across her version somewhere and I was like, oh god,

793
00:47:58,796 --> 00:48:04,156
Speaker 1: it's the black O Death. Yes, I love this so much.

794
00:48:05,076 --> 00:48:06,796
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is what I wanted. It's

795
00:48:06,836 --> 00:48:08,796
Speaker 1: just like I started singing and I was like, oh, yes,

796
00:48:09,196 --> 00:48:11,676
Speaker 1: you know. It was just really kind of I was

797
00:48:11,756 --> 00:48:15,356
Speaker 1: possessed when we recorded that, like absolutely, because all the

798
00:48:15,436 --> 00:48:18,516
Speaker 1: voice all the voiceovers, they're just passes. He does not

799
00:48:18,636 --> 00:48:21,236
Speaker 1: he's not constructing any of that. It's literally like I'm

800
00:48:21,276 --> 00:48:24,556
Speaker 1: singing with myself three times through and that's it, and

801
00:48:24,636 --> 00:48:28,116
Speaker 1: he just included everything. It's just it's insane. But yeah,

802
00:48:28,156 --> 00:48:31,756
Speaker 1: Bessie Jones's version of that, and I just I connected

803
00:48:31,756 --> 00:48:34,156
Speaker 1: to it in a way that I never really connected

804
00:48:34,196 --> 00:48:36,116
Speaker 1: to the Roph Stanley version, and I was like, oh,

805
00:48:36,156 --> 00:48:40,716
Speaker 1: this is this is it? Okay? That was just amazing.

806
00:48:40,756 --> 00:48:46,476
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thanks to Ann and

807
00:48:46,476 --> 00:48:49,556
Speaker 1: Giddins for keeping the black string tradition alive and for

808
00:48:49,636 --> 00:48:52,956
Speaker 1: sharing some of her incredible banjo playing technique. To hear

809
00:48:52,996 --> 00:48:55,916
Speaker 1: a new album, They're calling me home, head to Broken

810
00:48:55,956 --> 00:48:58,996
Speaker 1: Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our

811
00:48:59,036 --> 00:49:02,516
Speaker 1: YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast.

812
00:49:02,756 --> 00:49:05,756
Speaker 1: We can find all of our episodes. You can follow

813
00:49:05,796 --> 00:49:09,116
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced

814
00:49:09,236 --> 00:49:13,796
Speaker 1: of help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler,

815
00:49:13,876 --> 00:49:17,556
Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our

816
00:49:17,596 --> 00:49:21,596
Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Broken Record is a production

817
00:49:21,636 --> 00:49:24,556
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please remember

818
00:49:24,556 --> 00:49:28,036
Speaker 1: to share, rate, interview us on your podcast that Our

819
00:49:28,076 --> 00:49:31,316
Speaker 1: theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond bass