1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and this is Samantha, and welcome 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: to Stuff. I've never told you a production of I 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. As how Stuff works. With all of the 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: things happening in the news around Rob Wade and abortions, 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: we have a couple of classics that we wanted to 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: replay in the next coming in the coming weeks, UM 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: about about abortions because as we mentioned in our update 8 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: on Rob Wade and abortion, we do have a lot 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: of episodes that past host have recorded UM and so 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: for this first one, we wanted to rerun the episode 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: we did on at home abortions because for me, this 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: is something I really knew very little about, Like I 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: didn't I'm not even sure I knew that it was 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: a thing that existed, UM, and it's something that is 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: It sounds like it's a great option for some women, 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: UM because you can basically have an abortion in the 17 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: comfort of your own home. UM. But there are a 18 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: lot of, as you might imagine, legalities around it, and 19 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: there have been some some controversies and some less than 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: scrupulous UH providers. So you can learn all about that 21 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: and more and more in this classic episode. Please enjoy. Hey, 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're listening 23 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom never told you so. Last month, the 24 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: UK government announced that pregnant people in England would soon 25 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: be able to have pill induced abortions at home if 26 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: they are less than ten weeks pregnant. Today we're gonna 27 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: be getting into the ins and outs of pill induced 28 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: abortions sometimes called tell abortions, and the shifting regality around 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: them in the UK and in the US. Yeah. And 30 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: I have to admit that when um you suggested this 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: this topic and it was just like tiller abortions, I 32 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: had no idea what it was. I thought, like, it's 33 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: people calling our people calling, like robot calling hello, want 34 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: a hundred abortions? Yes, it is not that. Then like 35 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: a drone comes to your house and like I mean 36 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: in the future, who knows, but who knows, No a 37 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: tele abortion or different facets of pill and dios abortions. 38 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: Although I like the idea of calling a robot and 39 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: them coming to your house and having it that way, 40 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: here is what a pill induced aboard shists. So, according 41 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: to Planned Parenthood quote abortion pill is the popular name 42 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: for using two different medicines to end pregnancy. Mytho priot 43 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: Stone and miso pro stall. Your doctor or nurse will 44 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: give you the first pill WLL prit zone at the clinic. 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: Pregnancy needs a hormone called progesterone to grow normally. The 46 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: fristone blocks your body's own progesterone. You'll also get some antibiotics. 47 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: The abortion pill is very effective for people who are 48 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: eight weeks pregnant or less. It works about nine of 49 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 1: a hundred times for eight to nine weeks pregnant, it 50 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: works about ninety six a hundred times. For nine to 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: ten weeks, it works about three out of a hundred times, 52 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: So the earlier you take it, the more effective it is. 53 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: Exactly now. Home abortions were introduced in Scotland and Wales 54 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: last year. Now the UK government has said that this 55 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: will be legalized in England before the end of the year. 56 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: According to the latest figures from Scotland, eight out of 57 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: ten women are now choosing to take the final pill 58 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: at home instead of in a clinic, with the Department 59 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: of Health saying that they were monitoring this new evidence. Yeah, 60 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: that's a lot, It is a lot. Really. This whole 61 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: debate seems to come down a personal preference and giving 62 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: people the option of doing whatever feels right. I know, 63 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: for me, I'm a kind of person who might want 64 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 1: to take this second pill with a doctor there um, 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: but not everybody is like that. It really I can 66 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: understand why so many women are opting to do this 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: at in a privacy, in the comfort of their own home, 68 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: as opposed to with a doctor in a clinic, or 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: they have to then figure out how they're gonna get 70 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: home from there, and really that that is the crux 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: of why this is such a big deal. So basically, 72 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: when you're having an early medical abortion, you're getting these 73 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: two pills roughly two days apart, and it's that second 74 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: pill that triggers the abortion. Right now, women in England 75 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: have to take this pill in a physically in a 76 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: clinic under the direct supervision of a doctor, so a 77 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: doctor or a medical professional has to watch you put 78 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: it in your mouth, and then you know, you get 79 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: on the train, you get in your car, whatever however 80 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: you're getting home. You go home and the body does 81 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: its thing at home. Now, to be clear, this process 82 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: has been proven to be more or less relatively safe, 83 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean it's going to be comfortable. People 84 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: who are taking this pill often experienced symptoms like pain, nausea, vomiting, 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: and bleeding. And you know, for a lot of folks, 86 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: you want to be at home, in bed or wherever, 87 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: wherever it's comfortable for you to do this. You don't 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: want to be in the back of a cab, on 89 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: a subway, on a train, um, bleeding and experiencing the 90 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: symptoms of this abortion from this pill that you were 91 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: forced to take at some place other than your bed. 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I mean, yes, I feel like that 93 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: is something that you would want to do somewhere that 94 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: you're more comfortable. Um. But I can see if you're 95 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: worried about it, that maybe you would want to be 96 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: in a clinic. But um, either way, I think eventually 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: you're wants to get home and sort of deal with 98 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: this exactly. I might want to do this in our clinic, 99 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: But I think that's what it really comes down to, 100 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: is personal choice. We shouldn't be saying you have to 101 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: do it in a clinic if that's not where you 102 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: feel comfortable. You know, I can understand the inclination because 103 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: it's about safety and this and that, But so many 104 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: of these as we know, so many of these decisions 105 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: purport to be about keeping women safe, but they're really 106 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: about taking away women's choices, and we should be giving 107 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: women more choices. We should be giving women the freedom 108 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: to decide what makes their own body feel safe and comfortable. 109 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: When they're going through a process. It's going to be 110 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: painful and that might be unpleasant, and we shouldn't be 111 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: saying there's only one right way to do this, because 112 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: that's it's not that's not what we should be doing. 113 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: And so I think this is one of those situations 114 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: that we talked about in our episode on benevolent sexism, 115 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: where it's under this guise of protecting women, but really 116 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: it's about taking away choice, and they're doing it for 117 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: reasons that are not grounded in medical science. Yeah, and 118 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: for women that don't live anywhere near a clinic that 119 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: does abortions, this could be huge and we're going to 120 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit more later. According to 121 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: official government figures, about one thousand abortions occur each year 122 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: in England, with four and every five being a medical abortion. 123 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: People can start experiencing the abortion and as soon as 124 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: thirty minutes, which were some means experiencing symptoms while on 125 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: public transportation are in a camp home, which is not 126 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: ideal at all. Not ideal. Um. That's what happened to 127 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: Claudia Craig, twenty year old women's rights campaigner an activists, 128 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: after she made the decision to terminate her pregnancy yet 129 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: seven weeks last year. She was forced to go the trauma, 130 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: starting to bleed on her way home from the hospital 131 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: and the back of a stranger's taxi cab. Here's how 132 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: she describes it. It It was the shock of it all 133 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 1: that was a bit scary, and they're not quite making 134 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: it into the into the bathroom and onto the toilets. 135 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: Was really unfortunate. It would have been nice if that 136 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: could have been avoided. The whole way through your made 137 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: to feel like you're doing something that isn't quite right. 138 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: There's no reason for that. There was no reason for 139 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: that kind of uncomfortable, unpleasant experience. You know, you might 140 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: already be feeling a lot of feelings after getting an abortion, 141 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: and it's like, why make that experience. People deserve to 142 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: have medical procedures of all kinds be as comfortable as 143 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: they can be. You know, if you're getting a medical procedure, 144 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: whether it's an abortion or a tooth pulled odds are 145 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: You're going to be anxious, You're gonna be nervous, You're 146 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: gonna have a lot of feelings. Medical procedure should be 147 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: done in a ways that make people feel more at ease, 148 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: not less at ease. And I can't think of anything 149 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: less comfortable than bleeding in a stranger's cab, just trying 150 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: to get home. It's up there for sure. And because 151 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: you might feel that anxiety after taking the pill, the 152 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: discomfort could be heightened. Jane Dixon a consultant and sexual 153 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: and reprojective health care at Anner and Bevan University Health Board. 154 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: She believes the second pill could be taken by women 155 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: at home. She says the pain and discomfort experience are 156 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: equivalent to a natural miscarriage, but pain sensations can be 157 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: heightened by anxiety and uncertainty. This is why being able 158 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: to manage the experience yourself, when and where you want, 159 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: with the emotional support you want, is likely to improve 160 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: women's perceptions of pain. And I have to point out 161 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: the decision that England made to let people take the 162 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: second pill at home wasn't just a choice or a 163 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: ruling Like most kinds of social progress. The change in 164 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: England was the result of campaigners and advocates making a 165 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: lot of noise and speaking up about this issue. The 166 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a UK abortion provider, has long 167 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: been campaigning and advocating for home abortions to be legalized. 168 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: Clara Murphy, it's director of external Affairs told The Son 169 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: there is no clinical reason to deny men the option 170 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: of using this medication at home. It is safe and 171 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: effective to do so, which means the only grounds refusing 172 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: are political. And I think she's completely right that, you know, 173 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: the medical we should be making rules and regulations along 174 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: medical science. And if the medical science says there is 175 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: no reason why you can't hit this pull at home, 176 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: it is safe, it's effective, might make you more comfortable 177 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: do it, and the law saying no do it in 178 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: a clinic and bleed out in a taxi cab. And 179 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: I think I think she's exactly right that if it's 180 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: not grounded in medical science, then it must be political, 181 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: it must be social. What other explanation could there be? Yeah? 182 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: The World Health Organization figures reveal that administering the second 183 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: pill at home has no adverse effects on the outcome 184 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: of a termination between of pregnancies were successfully terminated when 185 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: it was administered at home. Now, because this law was 186 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: preventing women in England from taking the second pill at home, 187 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: some people were resorting to illegally buying it online and 188 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: taking it at home. There Over the past three years, 189 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: drug enforcement officers have seized almost ten thousand sets of 190 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: abortion pills on their way to addresses. In Britain, the 191 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency or the m h 192 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: r A, told the BBC. Kate Gasri, who works for 193 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: the service Women on web dot org, which helps women 194 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: who want to buy the tablets online, and told the 195 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: BBC that two thousand, two hundred and twelve women had 196 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: contacted her asking for abortion pills in the past eighteen months. 197 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: For four months, Women on Web tracked how many women 198 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: were illegally asking for these pills for four months, and 199 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: of the one hundred eighty women who responded during that 200 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: four month time, about half that they had difficulty accessing 201 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: the NHS abortion services. Other reasons they gave for trying 202 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: to get these pills illegally were things like distance and 203 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: waiting times, and other things like just not being able 204 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: to get childcare or time at work for instant. Linda 205 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: not her real name, a thirty one year old living 206 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: in Scotland, said I already have three kids and I 207 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: am a single working mum. I do not have the 208 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: funds to pay for the childcare while in the hospital. 209 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: I really need to do this in my own home. 210 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: Another of women said they were worried their abortion might 211 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: not be kept confidential and wanted to keep their abortion 212 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: a secret from a violent partner or controlling family member. 213 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of reasons why besides comfort, that 214 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: people would want to do this at home, as this illustrates, 215 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: and UM, I do think that if it's medically safe, 216 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: it should be available for women who want to go 217 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: that way. UM. And we do have some a little 218 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: bit of ripple ripple effects out to the United States 219 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about of tele abortion. But 220 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: first we're going to take a quick break for a 221 00:12:52,800 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay. 222 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: In the United States, at home abortions UM are a 223 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 1: new battlefield, especially with the prospect of an increasingly conservative 224 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: Supreme Court and uncertainty around Roe v. Wade, which is 225 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: why many turned to tele abortion that's right. Abortion via 226 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: telemedicine has been available in the United States since two 227 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, when the first formal program began in Iowa. 228 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: So how this works, Like, what makes this the tele 229 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: part of a tele abortion? A patient in one clinic 230 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: confers via video conference with a doctor and another clinic 231 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: and then receives abortion pills. Now, this satisfies a federal 232 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: requirement that the doctor quote dispense the pill to a 233 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: patient in a clinic office or hospital. Video conferencing is 234 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: also a useful way to sort of women in remote 235 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: or rural areas, but opponents have responded quickly, prohibiting abortion 236 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: via telemedicine in twenty states since eleven. In one of 237 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: those states, Iowa, the state Supreme Court reversed the band. Yeah, 238 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: And as I've mentioned before on this show, I think 239 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: I grew up in a really small town, and I 240 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: remember the big deal it was when there was talk 241 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: of our hospital closing because there were no other There 242 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: were no other closer hospitals, I mean that were like 243 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: reasonably close. And I hear so often about like medical 244 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: deserts where there's nothing nothing nearby, And I think that 245 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: video conferencing and these other ways that we can connect 246 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: to healthcare and maybe get an abortion pill. It can 247 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: be extremely useful, definitely. I used to work for a 248 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: news organization called Rewired News and they've been doing a 249 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: lot of interesting um work around reproductive healthcare, especially in 250 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: places like the Ozarks, um and the Appalachia. And honestly, 251 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: we should do a whole episode about this. But the 252 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: different alternative ways of getting healthcare to people who need it. One, 253 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: I'm shocked at the resilience that that people have gone 254 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: to get healthcare. There's there's things like vans that will 255 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: drive to you to give you basic services. Um, there's 256 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: video conferencing, but to it just reminds us that there 257 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: are medical landscape is so severely lacking in so many places, 258 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of times these places that you've just described, 259 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: these rural communities, places like the Ozarks, Appalachia, that's where 260 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: the need is greatest. And so it just it it 261 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: boggles the mind. I'm I'm uh full disclosure. I am 262 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: recording this in New York, New York City right now, 263 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: and I'm going on a trip tomorrow. And I was 264 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: able to walk out of my hotel in New York 265 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: and there were four urgent care clinics on the street. 266 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: So it was like I was looking at three of them. 267 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: I went into one, I waited for ten minutes, and 268 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: I was out right like when you compare that to 269 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: the experience of someone who's living in the ozarks or 270 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: a rural community, I mean, it's just it boggles my mind, 271 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: you know. And everybody needs healthcare, everybody gets sick, everybody 272 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: needs needs care at some time. But just the inability 273 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: of folks to access really basic services, it's it's really, 274 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: it's it's sad, it's it's a failure on the part 275 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: of our country. Yeah, I mean people were afraid when 276 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: the hospital possible, who is going to shut down? People 277 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: were really I could just hear in their voice the 278 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: anxiety of what would we do if it happened I 279 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: have this issue or of that issue. Yeah, I can't afford. 280 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: I don't I don't have the time. I can't afford 281 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: to like drive this far to the next hospital. Yeah, 282 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: there are places in the United States where if you 283 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: want to get an abortion that you have to travel 284 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: so far just to get too clicks because they're shutting down. 285 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: And again, when we have these places where, like you said, Annie, 286 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: just getting access to healthcare is such a tough thing. 287 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: We should be looking at ways to make that less tough. 288 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: And so you might be thinking, well, then why don't 289 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: they just make the abortion pill that you can get 290 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: it over the counter. If if it's so hard, like 291 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: why maybe they should deregulate it where people can get 292 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: access to it if it's safe and it's something people need. 293 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: But that's not what we're doing. We're doing the opposite. Yeah. 294 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: A lawsuit filed last year argues medication abortions should be 295 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: offered by prescription at the local drug store, and this 296 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: could amount to a seismic shift in abortion access. Kauai 297 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: doctor Graham Chilius, who bought the suit with the American 298 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: Civil Liberties Union, the a c l U and several 299 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: healthcare associations, called the restriction medically unnecessary and burdensome because 300 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: Kauai lacks a single abortion clinic. Chilias said he'd like 301 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: to stock myfi pristone but cannot because of the f 302 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: d A restriction. Quote, So if one of my patients 303 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: wants to enter pregnancy, she has to fly to a 304 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: different island one fifty miles away to get this care. 305 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: In the United States, the FDA regulates a PRIX under 306 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: a set of rules called Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy 307 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: are e m S. Because of these mandates, only health 308 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: care providers who have pre registered with the manufacturer of 309 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: mio Prex and stuck the abortion pill in their health 310 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: care facility may hand patients the medication. In a paper 311 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: titled sixteen years of over regulation, Time to Unburdened mill 312 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: for Prex, published in April in the New England Journal 313 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: of Medicine, leading clinicians and public health experts argue that 314 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: the FDA restriction was medically unnecessary, and a CLU attorneys 315 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: noted that leading medical groups, including the American Congress of 316 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making the pill available by prescription 317 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: at pharmacies. Quote overwhelming medical experience and decades of clinical 318 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: experience show medication abortion to be safe and effective method 319 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: to end of pregnancy. Dr Paul Blumenthal, director of the 320 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: Gynecology Service at Standard University, said in a statement, there's 321 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: simply no medical justification for these restrictions, and they create 322 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: needless and harmful burdens for women seeking this care. Um again, 323 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: but that that sounds so much like what's going on, 324 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: what was going on in England where it's clear from 325 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: medical professionals and medical research that there is not a 326 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: reason for creating more barriers and more rules around how 327 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: people can get access to this care and the way 328 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: that is right for them. If we understand that some 329 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: folks are in situations where there aren't a ton of clinics, 330 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: or maybe you're just busy and you can't get to 331 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: a clinic, we should be making access to this care easier, 332 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: and these doctors agree, but we're not doing that. Nope. 333 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: And because of that, people have resorted to buying the 334 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: pills online, just like they do in the UK. And 335 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about that when we get 336 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: back from one more quick break forward from our sponsor 337 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, yeah, here in 338 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: the United States, just like in the United Kingdom, women 339 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: are trying to get these pills by buying them online. 340 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: Olga Chasm at The Atlantic did a really comprehensive piece 341 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: back in July called elite abortion will mean abortion by 342 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: Mail that summarized a lot of the current climate around 343 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: obtaining abortion pills online. Yeah, the piece is fascinating and 344 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: I cannot recommend that folks readed enough. We'll link out 345 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: to it in the show notes. But it's it's really 346 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: really interesting in terms of where we're at with abortion 347 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: by pill and where we're going. So the reasons why 348 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: women in the United States might be looking to get 349 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: the pill online are pretty much what you might expect 350 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: and are very similar to what's going on in the UK. 351 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: Cost restrictive laws, and personal preference. Abigail Keane, an assistant 352 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: professor of public Affairs at the University of Texas off 353 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: Sin conducted interviews with thirty two people from twenty states 354 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: who sought out abortion pills online for a study called 355 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: Why US Presidents Seek Abortion Medication Online. She found that 356 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: women turned to mail order abortions because the clinic based 357 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: abortion was too expensive, or because state restrictions around abortion 358 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: like waiting periods and ultrasound laws were too onerous, and 359 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: some just preferred the privacy and convenience of doing their 360 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: own abortion at home. But as you might imagine, buying 361 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: pills online, especially if there's kind of this aura of 362 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: secrecy around it, um can be a little tricky. It 363 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: can be a bit of a risk. You don't know 364 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: what you're gonna get. That is all I'm trying to say. 365 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: If you've ever bought like an outfit from one of 366 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: those very cheap but very suspicious looking websites online where 367 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: it's like a picture of Chloe Kardashian looking amazing and 368 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: addressed and that same dresses and then you buy it, 369 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: I got experience. Mine was a pleather leggings that did 370 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: not look anything like what I was what I was promised. 371 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: If you've ever had that experience, as I'm sure some 372 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: of you have, buying abortion pills online can be very similar. Um. 373 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: This report talked about how the websites are often riddled 374 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: with typos, that transactions don't seem very trustworthy. And this 375 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: is not an experience that sort of you know, inspires 376 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: confidence in your abortion. No, I have to say one 377 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: one thing that I immediately gets me like, raises my 378 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: my haunches. It's like my Spidey sense. That's it. Um? 379 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: Is it like typos and font choice in any kind 380 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: of like you might want to keep this a secret, 381 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: like any sort of thing like that. I'm a little honage, 382 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: little suspicious. I'm gonna say I'm probably not the only one. 383 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: There was a study published earlier this year called exploring 384 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: the feasibility of obtaining mythopriss Stone and MISA prostall from 385 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: the Internet. Elizabeth Raymond, a senior medical associate at the 386 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: research organization Dinuity, googled phrases like by abortion pills online, 387 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: which it seems like a pretty good phrase to type 388 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: in first step one. The researchers ended up ordering eighteen 389 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: of the pill combinations from sixteen different websites, none of 390 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: which required a prescription. The pills came from India, where 391 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: there is a large generic drug industry. Shipments costs between 392 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: a hundred and ten to three hundred and sixty dollars, 393 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: and the packages took between three days and three weeks 394 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: to arrive. Two buyers received troubling communications from product vendors. 395 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: One warned about the legality of purchasing online quote please 396 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: do not share this info with any other side because 397 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: investigation team is searching the details for this type of medicine. 398 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: And in the second case, the vendor complained that he 399 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: was unable to get payment from the online payment platform 400 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: and threatened to withhold shipment until the buyer paid another way. 401 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: After some convincing, he finally sent the product In addition, 402 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: one buyer who paid with Western Union received two fraud 403 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: alert calls, one from Western Union advising against purchasing pharmaceuticals online, 404 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: and another from her credit card company. Raymond also noted 405 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: that some of the blister packs of pills arrived broken. 406 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: She says this might be due to the fact that 407 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: the shippers are afraid that custom service would be able 408 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: to field with the packaging and see that there are 409 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: pills in there, so they crushed the blister pack, which, 410 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: if you're trying to get medicine, a little worrying. It's 411 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: a little troublesome. Although the mythoprit his own pills contained 412 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: the expect of an out of medications, most of the 413 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: pills contained less than the labeled dose. Now they might 414 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: still work even at a lower dose, she says. But 415 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: what's more, none of the pills came with any instructions 416 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: or how to use them. So this experience does not 417 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: seem like one that is necessarily on the up and up. 418 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: Will say, but it is an experience that people in 419 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: the United States turned to. Yeah and um. Women can 420 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: be arrested for trying to end pregnancies outside of a 421 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: medical capacity. The s I a legal Team, a group 422 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: of lawyers who specialize in women who induce their own abortions, 423 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: knows of twenty one people who have been arrested or 424 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside a medical setting or 425 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: for helping someone else to do it. It might be 426 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: an undercount since the organization relies on news reports to 427 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: track these cases. The charges brought against women whose self 428 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: abord can range from child abuse to the abuse of 429 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: a corpse to a failure to report a death, says 430 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: Jill Adams. She is si AS chief strategist. So what's 431 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: interesting is none of these women were actually prosecuted simply 432 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: for the act of buying abortion pills specifically, But Adams 433 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: points out that fine pills online and even googling things 434 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: like buy abortion pill can leave a paper trail that 435 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: is then used as evidence in these cases. In seven states, 436 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: self induced abortion is illegal, and you might have heard 437 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: in A woman in Indiana named perb Patel was sentenced 438 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: to twenty years in prison for fet aside after she 439 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: allegedly used abortion pill she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed for 440 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: fetus had been born alive and she allowed it to die. 441 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: Her conviction was later overturned in an appeal, so we 442 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: can kind of get a sense that this is a 443 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: desperate situation for a lot of people out there. I mean, 444 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: people don't just turn to these fishy online websites that could, 445 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, get you arrested for no reason for fun. 446 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: This is clearly a very very desperate situation for a 447 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: lot of folks out there. And yeah, I think that's 448 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: why it's sort of important to get a lay of 449 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: the land in terms of where where we're at with 450 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: this issue in the United States, as it seems like 451 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: we are getting closer and closer and closer to a 452 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: more conservative Supreme Court. If Supreme Court Justice nominee Brett 453 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: Cavanall is confirmed, it's not impossible that Roe v. Wade 454 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: could be overturned. You know, we could be in a 455 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: very very different landscape when it comes to reproductive justice 456 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: and reproductive freedom and reproductive access um very soon. So 457 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: it's important to understand sort of where we're at and 458 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: where we could be on this issue. Yeah, absolutely, and 459 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: we need to. I mean, if we're making it where 460 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: women are seeking out these illegal pills because other options 461 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: are closed to them, or because they are afraid that 462 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: they will be closed to them. There's just a lot 463 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: of things that this should get us thinking about and 464 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: talking about, and things that we could improve so that 465 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: this isn't happening. That what is already a difficult medical 466 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: experience medical choice um doesn't have to be more difficult. 467 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: That's really the thing that gets me is that any 468 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: medical procedure is kind of a drag. We should not 469 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: be making it more difficult to access less comfortable. We 470 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: should only be regulating things that are you know, medically sound, 471 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: based on medical information, not anything else. And I just 472 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: people deserve to have their medical procedures, whether it's an 473 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: abortion or an appendectomy, people deserve to have them with 474 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: dignity and in comfort. Agreed. Agreed. We would love to 475 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: hear from from folks in the UK about their experience, 476 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: if they have, if they have any insights or thoughts 477 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: on that. And speaking of hearing from listeners, it's time 478 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: for listener mail. Debbie Route. I'm a service engineer for 479 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: a high end nanotechnology company and my job has me 480 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: on the road literally every day. I'm home every other 481 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: weekend most of the time, and spend more time in 482 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: airports than I do in my own house. I traveled 483 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: domestically as well as internationally intoically alone, which I love. 484 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: The question I get most often from friends and family 485 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: who think I'm crazy is but how do you eat? 486 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: Do you eat at restaurants alone? Insert horrified phase here? 487 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: Yes I eat food. Sometimes I eat food and restaurants, 488 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: And yes I eat food and restaurants alone. I don't 489 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: get why this is such a huge hang up for people. 490 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: You know what you get when you're eating alone. Whatever 491 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: you're damn well please, and that's in all caps. I 492 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: want to eat the same Shinese takeaway four days in 493 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: a row. I'm gonna eat those delicious spring rolls four 494 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: days in a row. If I want to go out 495 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: for a fancy dinner, I get to pick the bottle 496 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: of wine that I really want, not share the best 497 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: bites of food with anyone, and have a wonderful evening 498 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: chatting with the staff, enjoying a great view of whatever 499 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: city I'm in. I find that, once you get over 500 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: yourself and realize that no one is judging you, and 501 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: if they are, they have way too much time and 502 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: energy on their hands, eating out alone is really a 503 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: relaxing experience. There's something so wonderfully luxurious about sitting alone 504 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: in a lovely restaurant, drinking glass of wine, snacking on 505 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: top of us and not worrying about keeping up a conversation. 506 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: Are looking sexy while eating? You can take as long 507 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: as you want to finish your meal, order nothing but 508 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: espresso and dessert, and just enjoy where you are. Dining 509 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: alone is my time to unwind after a crazy week, 510 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: and I love it. Yes, there are plenty of hassles 511 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: that come with traveling while female. Don't get me started 512 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: in the Middle East, But as long as you go 513 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: into it with the right mindset, solo travel is safe 514 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: and empowering experience that I encourage every woman to undertake. 515 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: I love this because I get that all the time. 516 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: To um eating alone as if what is wrong with you? 517 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: How can you do it? And I actually remember when UM, 518 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: there was this big kerfuffle of like us, I don't know, 519 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: articles coming out about neils are eating alone? What's it 520 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: going on? Societies ending? I UM, but it it can be. 521 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: It can be really lovely and relaxing experience. Sometimes it's 522 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: hard to get over that first initial like table for one, UM, 523 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: but I I actually had a wonderful experience with this 524 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: recently that turned into not eating alone. But because I 525 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: was sitting alone, people came and sat with me that 526 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: I'd never met and never would have talked to in 527 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: my life, and it it worked out wonderfully. So you 528 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: never know, um, that it can be really wonderful experience. Yeah, 529 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: I I our lives, thank you for writing in Our 530 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: our Lives sound very similar. Um. I have to travel 531 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: domestically quite a bit for just for work staff. So 532 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: I'm often in a on a train or on a plane, 533 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: and so I am often in new cities, often eating alone. 534 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: And you really, like you said, like the after the 535 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: initial sort of whatever anxiety you feel about it, you 536 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: really get used to it and it's quite a lovely experience, 537 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: you know. I I a lot of my good friends 538 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: are work in the restaurant industry because I so often 539 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: eat alone, and it's like you make friends and blah 540 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: blah blah. Um. I really enjoy it too. Honestly, some 541 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 1: of the letters that we've got, it makes me think 542 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: that we should do an entire episode on just women alone, 543 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, traveling alone, eating alone? What are other things 544 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: people do alone? Um that people think that's weird? Yeah, 545 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: I mean I think that so many women wrote in 546 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: about doing things that society says that you should do 547 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: with a partner alone. And I think I think there's 548 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: something like going to the movies alone, which I which 549 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: is like my favorite activity in the world. Oh my god, 550 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: I am. I am in heaven. Nothing like my version 551 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: if I have no plans on a weekend, My version 552 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: of heaven is to pick two we either to like 553 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: weird movies that no one would ever want to see 554 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: except for me. And maybe that's maybe that's show uh, 555 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: like a ten hour documentary about the Holocaust. Maybe that's 556 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: am a mia to like, you know, it could be 557 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: it could be anything but just going to see a movie, 558 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: sneaking in my candy and just like being in heaven 559 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: not having to look at my partner and being like, 560 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, I dragged them to this and they 561 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: hate it and they hate me and this is awkward 562 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: and it's a bad day, blah blah blah. Like being 563 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: free of all of that and just like being in 564 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: a movie alone, liking it or not liking it. It's 565 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: like I'm in I'm in heaven. It's my it's my 566 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: happy place. But I do think there is something around 567 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: doing these things that we, especially women, have been conditioned 568 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: for so long that you do them with a romantic partner, 569 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: and if you do them alone, you're a freak. People 570 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: are reclaiming that and saying, actually, I love eating alone. 571 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Actually I love traveling alone. Actually I love going to 572 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: the movies alone. Actually I love doing sports alone. You know. Yeah, 573 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: for sure, we're definitely moving that way. And it has 574 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: been interesting because it is sort of younger folks doing 575 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: it more, I think, or at least that was what 576 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: the starting wave was. And so when those when I 577 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: was sitting eating all own recently, the people that came 578 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: and sat with me were these older gentlemen who could 579 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: not fathom he would choose to eat alone. But we 580 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: actually we had a great conversation from that, and really 581 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: it was a great experience. It was a great experience. Yeah, 582 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that if you look at 583 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: the numbers we're getting, we're marrying less and less and 584 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: things like things that used to be markers of kind 585 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: of being successful adults, marriage, car ownership, homeownership, We are 586 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: sort of less tether to those things. So I think 587 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: that has something to do with it. It's a shifting 588 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: the shifting priorities of young people, and that young people 589 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: are much more likely to prioritize experiences over things, and 590 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: so you know, we would value like a lavish trip 591 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: more than you know, say, owning a BMW. And I 592 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: think I think it's just I think it's just a 593 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: reimagining of how we live our lives and actually relates 594 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: to our next letter. Sanantha wrote, I just listened to 595 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: the podcast about solo traveling. I was in France at 596 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: the same time as you. It was really exciting seeing 597 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: your Instagram post as I was finishing out my first 598 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: solo journey and my first time abroad. I spent two 599 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: half weeks in Switzerland and then two weeks in South 600 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: France solo before meeting my parents in Paris. It definitely 601 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity that passed 602 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: me by before for many reasons, and I'm really glad 603 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: I finally got to do it. I enjoyed listening to 604 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: the podcast about how you and Annie talked about society 605 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: not being okay with women traveling solo. I've done some 606 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: internship stuff around the US, so a lot of my 607 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: family members and family friends assumed that I was doing 608 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: another internship thing, or at least going with a friend. 609 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: When I responded to the who are you going with 610 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: question with the words myself, I always got a confused 611 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: look and maybe the words you're braver than I am. 612 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: While flattering, I also feel conflicted about this kind of reaction. 613 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm not entirely sure why it bothered me, although it 614 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: is in part because I was always labeled as a 615 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: shy kid, and despite me growing up, it seems like 616 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: everyone is surprised when I do something adventurous. I also 617 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: want to say, in a cheesy way, I do feel 618 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: like this trip changed me too. I feel more confident, 619 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: particularly in social situations, and more excited about future possibilities 620 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: to try new things, meet new people, and see new places. 621 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: I'm currently in my second year of working toward a 622 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 1: PhD in math, and I'm hoping this new confidence will 623 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: stick with me through the challenges I faced this semester um. 624 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: If it sounds like I'm smiling my head off while 625 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm reading this letter, it's because I am. Um. Samantha, 626 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much for writing in. It's so cool 627 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: that we were in France together alone for at the 628 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: same time. It's almost like we were there together, but 629 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: you know apart, Um, yeah, I mean soli travel. I 630 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: completely agree that it did make me feel more confident. 631 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: And I'm I love the idea of you sort of 632 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: shirking this label of like, oh you're just a shy, 633 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: sweet kid and saying no, I can I can do 634 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: adventurous things that can be by myself. I can talk 635 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: to strangers in Paris and make friends with them. And 636 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: I I really really hope that you bring that good 637 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: energy into your studies. It sounds like you're kind of 638 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: poised to really tap into whatever that that thing that 639 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: made you feel so confident and good on your own 640 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: in France. It sounds like you're poised to bring that 641 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: back to your to your real life and to your 642 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: work as a PhD student. By the way, PhD and 643 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: math very rad. Yes, yeah, this is this letter just 644 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: makes me very happy. Yes, Um, I've gotten that, like 645 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: you're braver than I am response to And I think 646 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: the reason for me that it's it's annoying in a 647 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: weird way because it's almost like dismissive, as if it 648 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: just comes more naturally to you. I don't know, I 649 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: I appreciate like the thought behind it but I understand 650 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the kind of weirdness there of like I guess, I guess. 651 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: But thanks to both of them for writing in. If 652 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: you like to write us, you can. Our email is 653 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com, and as always, 654 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: you can find us on social media. Were on Instagram 655 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Ever Told You and on Twitter at mom 656 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. And thanks to our producer Andrew Howard.