WEBVTT - Nurses Strikes and Class War in the UK, Part 2 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.080 Welcome to do do it can happen here a podcast increasingly 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.600 about nurses strikes and yeah, this is part two of 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.680 our Inny of You with Nick, a nurse in the UK. Enjoy. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.640 We've entered the tafty Turviya land where the RCNC used 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:19.000 to be the people who are like leading on the 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.239 militancy in this in this French where yeah, yeah, And 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.440 I think part of it comes down to is because 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.160 the RCM was historically for a sneaking part city was 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.560 not a union, became a union late in the day 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.800 for then eight was for ages anti strike. A lot 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.559 of unions because like we can talk about the John 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.640 critique of unions and particularly like institutional unions, how they 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.800 service providers, how they build up like a protective bureaucracy 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:51.159 against Burton struggle or against like glass roots militancy. The 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.200 RCM it's not a particularly democratic as these things go, 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.400 but it doesn't have that kind of built up institutional 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.560 inertia in the trade union side because historically it hasn't 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.400 needed it, and that meant I think it was actually 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:10.720 far more susceptible. It's two grassroots pressure and militancy then 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:17.800 some of the other more established unions were and that's all, Oh, sorry, no, 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.520 and that kind of like was the thin end of 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.280 the webs that the rcenter taker's bostrong stance over the 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.920 pay rise in response to like grassroots organizing and like 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.960 a demand from the grassroots to do that, which then 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.400 results in them like batting for strike action first, which 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.479 then meant other unions had to and then we got 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.560 the and then the cascade of like strikes in the 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:45.960 NHS have occurred since then. So this is this is 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:51.040 a very very broad question to be asking, but how 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:59.640 how have the strikes has been going. That's kind of 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:05.680 a differ got one to say. So Scotland, for instance, 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.080 has not been called out, has not actually had any 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.400 strike days because the Scottish government went into negotiations to 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.880 begin with and then made an offer, it was rejected, 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.160 strikes were announced, they made another, agreed to come back 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.600 to negotiations. So like it's been effective in getting something 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.960 moving in Scotland. Their current offer of fifteen percent over 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.480 two years, so six something this year, five something next 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.960 year is currently being voted on by the RCA membership. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.280 It's not it's not a good but it's a significant 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.799 movement of what came before Wales. The Welsh government, after 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.040 saying no, we can't have any more money. We can't. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:48.200 We literally can't because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster won't 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.040 give us any more budget for this has now made 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:56.400 an improved, an improved offer. It's crap, but it's like 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.120 something it's forcome to shift when they were claiming it 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.680 was physically impost for them to do it, which every 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.280 single time, like I can think of exactly one time 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.079 ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.079 it was actually true. But this is not like that. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.919 That was that was like what Norfolk Southern in like 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.839 like the nineteen seventies, and it was only true once 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.880 and it's never been true ever since then. Like you 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.480 will hear this from every fucking employer who you attempt 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.840 to go on track against, and they're always lying, like 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.280 every single time. What I will say is like in 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.840 the case of Wales, it is very true. The Welsh 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.640 government's budget is set by Westminster, by the CeNSE of government, 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.960 so it's a lie, but it's a plausible lie. Yeah, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.040 And Wales is generally massively Wales is like some of 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.600 the highest rates of child poverty outside of Eastern Europe. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.520 In Europe, the reasons. Part of the reasons for this 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.880 is because the Wales government is chronically underfunded. Yeah yeah, 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.560 due to political desinis has made in England, but it's 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:04.160 still not true. And then in England, like it's got 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.840 to the point where a government who are categorically opposed 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.520 to any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.120 negotiating tables. So from that, although a suspective, loads of 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.760 preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, and they're going 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.920 to not make a credible offer in my view and 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.120 as a stalling tactic, but the fact they even chose 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.400 to come to the table at all. I hate saying 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:27.880 this because it makes it's the kind of thing that 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.080 makes people complacent. But that is actually quite big that 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.320 the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.800 to negotiating table. Stopped hiding behind oh there's an independent 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:42.120 paybody that decides these things. Stop saying it's we can't 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.000 afford to fund the NHS anymore. Actually just coming and 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.160 sitting at the table at all to negotiate. It's like 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.520 a big movement of itself. Now if we talk about 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:59.039 numbers of participation in strikes. There's been a lot of difficulties, 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.760 a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.160 in the strikes as should have been. I will be 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.440 frank and say so now we're going to talk about 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.839 the derogations, the situation delegations, which is like the RN 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.239 voluntarily saying we will allow this many people to continue 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.440 working these days and these areas in order to maintain 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.200 patient safety, which is, on one hand, we don't want 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.200 any patients to die obviously, on the other hand, it's 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.440 a very easily abused stance to take. And there are 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.480 just nurses who are other trade unions who who aren't 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.240 a trade unions as well, and ultimately, if they want 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.400 that not to happen, they need to just come to 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.680 the table earlier. And so this results in a process 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:48.000 where so by to you and like time sensitive chemo 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:54.080 and pediatric A and ees were derogated by default, and 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:58.919 then there was an agreement of if the wards had 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.840 less than like nighttime numbers, we would agreed for a 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:08.360 small amount of our of our membership to go in 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.560 to work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.200 the sake of patients safety. But that had to be 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:20.520 applied form on a case by case bas basis. But 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.080 there's a couple of problems with this one. Trust just 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.480 not taking it seriously, lying and not trying to establish 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:32.640 these things to make accurate requests, leaving it to the 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.280 last minute, and then asking for blanket derogations. We don't 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.839 know if it's going to be safe or not. Managers 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.400 like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.560 to giving incorrect information to their staff, people not understanding 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.840 what was of wasn't derogated, And just generally it was 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.120 a system that was very open to abuse, and so 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:55.600 like a lot of a lot of things were just 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.200 left open in general or like that shouldn't have been 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.560 But at the same time, I know that it didn't 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.880 happen in every case, but like there was a success 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.400 in like members the strike committee going around wards and 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.680 saying no, you're over number, you need to come out, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.760 and people doing it. Of like surgeries being canceled, like 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.040 elective surgeries, nontime sensitive surgeries being canceled due to it, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.040 of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.120 each thing needed to happen they wanted needed to happen. 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.880 Those days, all of it's built up. Even if we 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:32.560 didn't get the full amount of people we should have 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.160 had out on strike, on strike really built up the 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.120 pressure significant degrees from them to then put the pressure 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.360 up the chain of the NHS to the government's like 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.280 we can't keep on going on like this. And at 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.320 the same time each set of strikes, the number of 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.960 people participating did increase, so like, for instance, I've just 0:07:53.080 --> 0:08:00.400 got the government statistics from that the fifteenth of December, 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.960 I think it is so this was the first strike 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:09.080 day that was called. It was nine thousand, nine hundred 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:13.320 and ninety nine absences due to industrial action. Then on 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.640 the twentieth it was eleven thousand, five hundred and nine. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.760 Then on the eighteenth and nineteenth of January, and just 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.320 one important factor, they didn't call all hospitals out at once. 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.000 Again I think a mistake of strategic mistakes should have 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.400 gone hard, gone hard fast. But the argue was we 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.079 just we don't have the facilities to organize all of 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.559 this effectively on all of these last amounts, because like 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.480 it was a huge amount of trusts they needed to 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.480 do that with. But then on those days it was 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:51.360 then eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty three and eleven thousand, 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.040 two hundred and nineteen across those two days. Then in 0:08:54.720 --> 0:09:00.040 February it was fifteen thousand, nine hundred ninety eight, and 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:05.719 then I'm fourteen on the second day, fourteen thousand and 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.200 then fifty eight to people, which is far lower than 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.640 it should have been. I can't remember how many people 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.760 there are nursed are on the NHS, so I should 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.280 have had that statissecretity, but it's not an inconsiderate amount. 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.840 It meant lots about patients appointments being canceled, a lot 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.559 of surgeries being canceled, a lot of chaos and stress 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.480 for the managers of the NHS and therefore for the government. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.240 Are looking really bad for them. And it's a clear 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.720 upwards trajectory, which meant that when they are seeing announced 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.480 we're going to do two days consecutive, we're not. We're 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:37.800 going to keep it going through the night, which they 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.160 han't done previously, and we're not doing derogations. I to 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.200 you will be staffed. I think we're not doing anything else. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.440 I think no even it TOU wasn't staffed. We'd considered 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.360 on a case by case basis, we won't be considered 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:54.720 what sorry, intensive care, I see you for America. Actually okay, yeah, 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.600 So that meant that at that point the government prob like, okay, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:01.640 we need to move to a new delaying tactic. They're 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.480 not just going to give up. And I think with that, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.960 as it went on, like people were itching and itching 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:14.319 to go further. And so for instance, like A and 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.319 E was derogated, So which is the area I work in? 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.280 But like a lot of people and this is reflective 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.720 of like most areas that were derogated. When I spoke 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.839 to people, we weren't them like, no, we need to 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.640 be out, we need to be out the picket line. 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.760 And like after the first two rounds, there was also 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.600 a growing effort to like try and find out from 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.640 the membership of what the actual situation was. So unlike 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.479 staffing on the wards, because all wards are chronically understaffed. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.600 So when they said, oh, well neath this, aren't people 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.280 who say, no, we know that's alive, we know one 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.079 nights there's actually only three registered nurses. There's not the 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.559 four you're claiming and stuff like that. It's again I 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.040 think it was a really positive move in like embedding 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.199 a kind of like workers, inquiry of workers nor it's 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.800 about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:10.760 had been quite a top down process. But yeah, and 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.040 I'm kind of worried about how this delay and break 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.160 in the strike action will affect that momentum that had 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.080 been building up. I think, like to a large degree, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.679 people are like itching to go again, and I think 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.720 that desire to go again is building as it goes. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.199 Like when it initially happened, but this social instally called off, 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.480 there was a lot of like trust, like in like 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.360 the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.840 there was a lot of like people thinking of at 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:39.880 least I don't know if this was represent general opinion, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.080 but people being quite Vocnate Beau say no, we need 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.560 to trust like Pat knows what she's doing, they wouldn't 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.000 have called it off of this thing. It's like it's 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.199 getting more and more those people being like, no, we 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.839 need to, we need to go, we need to we 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.520 need to get back on the picket line. And there's 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.400 been a petition that's been going around that's been getting 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.360 quite a bit of news, like setting out some hard 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.840 lines like four to the end R and C leadership 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.559 about what kind of stuff they should accept, like saying, no, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.160 we need to stick to the above inflation busting, we 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:12.839 need to not compromise on this, we need to not 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.160 compromise in this, which is I think got eight hundred 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.480 and eighty signatures at the moment. It doesn't sound like 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.000 a huge amount, but like again you're going through quite 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.120 a lot of immersia of like attitude of like you've 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.480 got to leave it to the leadership among the membership, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.040 even when they were unhappy with it. And it's only 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:34.079 a thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCNSU where 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.400 the RCM works to call an extraordinary general meeting, which 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.520 they can do pretty much whatever it wants. And that's 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.040 how the leadership in two and eighteen was kicked out 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.360 after the bad pay deal. Then well that's really interesting. Yeah, 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.200 so like the very undemocratic except for this one particular thing. Yeah, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.120 is it is it a normal thing? That? Is it 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:54.880 like a normal thing for unions in the in the 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.280 UK or is that just like a most most I 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:03.120 think all unions have of an amount of people set 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.200 amount where if like memberships calling for an extraordinary general meeting, 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.320 they have to do it. The RCNS one is really 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.960 low interesting essentially, and like there were some moves were 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:14.360 like people in the r C a least say, oh, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:15.599 we need to change it, we need to give it 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.280 a v we need we need to raise it to 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:25.480 be more in line with other unions. But that again 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.000 is something that will have to that if that does happen, 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.520 that kind of change we'd have to go through like 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.600 a membership wide vote. It's not something the executive leadership 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:48.559 could just impose. That's good. Yeah, So like there is 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:53.160 a process of like these strikes were like a result 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:58.680 of like increasing general level of militancy with among nurses 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:03.280 in general and among NHS workers. And I think particularly 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:08.280 because everyone knows it's awful the situation, and then with 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.520 like a slightly more organized than spearing it the resulted 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:18.079 in that in that petition in twenty eighteen, arguing for 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.640 stuff at like compass and things, and then that's all 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.600 actual strike has like got the membership feeling like they 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.920 should have a more active role, and I think it's 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.880 pushing things in a positive direction, even though I think 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:32.800 the rc AND leadership has gotten to a point where 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.800 by mistake, it ended up way ahead of the other 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.560 unions and it's now trying to beg attle, but I don't. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:41.600 I think there's a lot of potential for like more 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.920 glass roots organized by the membership to prevent that happening. Yeah. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.720 We are in a difficult position though that the time 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.080 is running out. Strike mandates in the UK only last 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:58.840 for six months. We are when the government that greed 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.920 negotiations were to and a half months left of the mandate. 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.160 It's now two months left of the mandate. You have 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.560 to give two weeks notice before strike action. Oh so 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.880 that's that that that's that's what to sort of like 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.160 run out the clock strategies about on their side. Okay, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.600 that makes sense exactly. Now, nothing's to stop us from reballoting. Yeah, 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.280 but it will be a whole process. It has to 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.280 be a month. You have to go through the mail. Yeah, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.160 it will be drawn out. We'll buy them a lot 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:31.800 more time. Yeah, that's postal workers I think are on 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.560 strike again today too, I think maybe, I think so, 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.200 let me, I've got the strike calendar up on my computer. 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.120 Let's see who's on strike and absolutely fraud. I have 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:43.840 it on my other computer, but I don't have it 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:49.880 on this one. Yeah, so days the fifteen today Amazon's 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.880 on striking, Coventry, the BBC's regil services, the civil service, 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:01.320 which will kind of be equivalent to like a federal 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:07.360 stuff um in America. So like fince, it's my dad, 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.440 who's a Health and safety inspector is on strike today, 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.600 h MRC, which is the tax officers on strike, junior 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.800 doctors on strike, off stead, the School of Structors on 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.680 spike strike, the rail the two main rail unions on strike, 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.440 teaches on strike, and university stuff on strike. Not the 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.800 postal service today. But yeah, yeah, well I guess, I 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:32.440 guess I wanted to ask a bit about that too, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.120 about sort of just what what's been happening. I don't 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:36.560 know what what what you see as sort of the 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.880 potential of the of the broader strikes have been happening, 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.320 because this is this is a I don't know, I mean, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.200 it's not it's not it's not like a like it's 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.760 it's not like a nineteen seventies style like strike wave, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.320 but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:57.960 in the last decade. It's it's big like that isn't 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.360 the level of cross union corporation and talks that you 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.720 would want. There's a lot of like people turning up 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.240 to each other's picket lines. There's a lot of like 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:13.280 solidarity present, but it's not coalescing into like a into 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.520 like a unified movement, which you're hoping to be. Although 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.240 I do think if something doesn't change, it is moving 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.320 in that direction. And like the Conservative government is at 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.000 like an all time loan it's popularity ratings. Yeah, I think. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.120 I don't know if you're aware from this quote from 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.679 Margaret that's about how her main political goal was remaking 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:44.200 the soul of Britain away because like up until that 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.399 period there was a very strong trade union movement in 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.000 the UK that it had like one of the best 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:54.520 social democracies in the world, like comparable to Scandinavia today 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.240 it was. It was far more like a collective attitude 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.080 in the UK. And like Margaret factor is explicit. I 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.840 can't remember the exact quote explicit project and the project 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:05.800 or the Conservative Party at the time. Let's not put 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.280 it all on her, great woman thee of histories, as 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:13.040 bad as great man of history, to move the soul 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.800 of the like general social attitude and personality of like 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:21.120 people in Britain away from that like orientations like community 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.960 and collective struggle and action. And there is a part 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.400 of me that feels like this is a move away 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.399 from that, because like everyone you go to, there's winging 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.280 about like an inconvenience caused by strike, but pretty much 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.479 everyone is like, yeah, those they have it. It's awful 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.159 for them all the strike drivers. Good on them for 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.320 standing up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.320 up for themselves. Good on postal workers were standing up 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.520 for themselves. Good on nurses were standing up for themselves. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.400 Like the amount of like stuff I've been brought by 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.520 people on the picket lines has been in It's like 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.200 I each to day I've been like rolling down for 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.919 hill from my hospital to my house like a bloated 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.119 stomach from like stuff members of the public import and 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.159 dropped off at the pick it line. It's um. It 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.680 makes me feel like it's there is the optimist part 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.919 of me. It does feel like there is a reorientation 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.119 in general of British public to the idea that we 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.280 don't have to put up with this, yeah, and you 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.560 don't have to struggle and try and get it on 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.440 your own. And like it's early days yet, but I 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.119 do see something positive moving in that direction in the UK. 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:34.680 As to this strike wave, Yeah, that's a that is 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.119 I don't know that that is great news from a 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:41.040 place that does not usually generate great news. This is 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.200 like the this is the deeply optimistic part of me. 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.520 On the other hand, do you have like bad a 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.280 lot of bad news coming out of the UK. Yeah, 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.159 Like this strike wave is good news. It is the 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.560 fact that it's happening in the NTS in particular, which 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.800 has been so resistant to industrial action historically, and also 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.440 just because of how what significant part of the economy 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.119 it is as well, because like you know, the NHS 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.200 is the eighth biggest employee in the world. Wow, you 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.960 know it's in the world. That's that's wild. Yeah, Like 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.880 it used to be like the fifth biggest in the world. Wow, 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.400 it's yeah. It used to only be that the American Army, 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.600 the Chinese army, McDonald's of Walmart would be it would 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.359 be overtaken by Amazon and such now but yeah, yeah, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.760 like like strike action, so like from like a worker's perspective, 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.120 like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.960 nurses in the NHS, the biggest flow in the world, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.159 leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK, 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:53.000 leaving aside their history of the opposition, like the active 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.040 opposition to the idea of striking within nursing historically in 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.440 the UK, is huge news and something to be hopeful about, 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.200 and then put into context of the more border strikeway 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.720 in the UK and within the NHS in general, this 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.560 is huge and it is a sign I think or 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:15.400 positive change and like reortation towards workplace struggle occurring. I think. 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:30.080 So I've now heard two different places do this, which 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.359 was I heard this in Chile in twenty nineteen, and 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.240 I heard this also on my picket line at the 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.639 University of Chicago in twenty nineteen, which is I had like, 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.160 I this is this is the place deal liberalism was born, 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.080 and we will kill it here. And I mean those 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:48.600 are the three places, Yeah, Chicago and the UK. Yeah, 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.119 I think. I think also arguably Germany, although that has 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:58.000 a whole other The d Libs aren't I think Aldo 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.520 Libs from my understanding of from listening to some things 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:04.159 about years ago, it's more of a family resemblance than 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.480 the exact same thing as neoliberalism. Yeah, I mean, I 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.640 think if we're gonna I think they got absorbed into 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.800 the neoliberal bubble so far as like like they're they're 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.280 the order libs are where the neo liberals got the 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.800 sort of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.639 like the legal bureaucracy from like hyak is also like 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.520 heavy of all. Yeah that that's that's a whole this right, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.200 But yeah, like it is. It is encouraging to me 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.320 that it's like, I don't know, like like the it 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:33.960 really does seem like in the places where the liberalism 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.480 was bored, it's like it's starting to come apart. Yeah, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:39.840 And you know, I know people people have been predicting 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:46.320 the death neoliberalism for like long, well almost as long 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.600 as I've been alive. But I don't know this this 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:54.159 like the fact that it's happening in these places seems 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:59.320 different than it does seem look on it. I think 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:05.000 it is significan can I think I'm I am cautiously 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.240 excited every time I hope something bad happens, but I 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:13.600 am hopeful now. And you know, my brain isn't magic, 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.240 so it can't be a cause of effect there. Yeah, 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.200 but I don't know. I mean, like you are the 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.720 second person I've interviewed from the UK who actually seemed 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:26.120 to be like somewhat optimistic about the direction you could 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:28.160 possibly be going, which is the first time I've heard 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:30.439 that in Like, I mean, I guess you're people who 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.200 are optimistic about Corbin, but yeah, I don't know. This 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:35.879 is this is the first sort of like signs of 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:41.640 that since I don't know a long time, and I think, yeah, 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.359 look like if I was honestly the American listeners, like, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.080 if turf Island isn't doomed, then we're not doomed either. 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.800 I don't know. He's what I canna say. You're over 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:56.120 taking us on that. It's true. Yeah we have Yeah, 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.080 I am Yeah, I don't know when this is out, 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.200