1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:00,360 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 2: Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well as 3 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The Serial Killer. 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 2: For those of you who liked The Burden, I have 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 2: good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's a series 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's the director's 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, which 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: reached number one on the charts when it debuted half 9 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders abandon it. 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 2: I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled to share 11 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 2: this story of a man who fought the law for 12 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide prosecutor and 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela of the Bronx. 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: It's all coming to you August seventh, wherever you get 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: your podcasts. Hey Burden listeners. I'm Steve Fishman and. 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm dak stubn Ross for The Burden. We've spent a 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: long time talking and thinking about Detective Louis Scarcela and 18 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: his flaws, But lately we've been thinking about the Scarcelo 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: who was lauded and who was loved, the guy who 20 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: was a member of an elite detective squad, the detective 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: who won the annual Chief Detective Award not once, not twice, 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: but a dozen times, which is like the detective version 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: of the MVP Trophy. Lots of costs believed in Louis, 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: loved him, even idolized him. 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 2: And Dak Sometimes just this kind of thing induced in 26 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: me a kind of nighttime panic. I'd wonder did we 27 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: get it wrong? Were we understanding things in the wrong way? 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: So many fellow cops swore by his skill, his results, 29 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: his temperament. In a bad moment, I wondered, even after 30 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: all the time we put into this podcast, did we 31 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: miss something. 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: So for this episode, we talked to four people who 33 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: work closely with Louie, you could call them his admirers. 34 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: So what did they see? 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: Louie walks in and it's a gard in his mouth, 36 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: Louis Is it looked like he stepped out of GQ. 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: He's dressed to the nines. I was always a frumpy 38 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: type of guy. 39 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 4: I didn't dress like Louie. 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: This is Stevie Camill, another detective in the elite Brooklyn 41 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: North homicide unit. The first time he said eyes on 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: Louie he knew Louie was the. 43 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: One why I saw you. You want to partner up, 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 3: Louis says, yeah, let's partner up. 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: Camille thought of Louis as sort of like Dick Tracy, 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: which made him a sidekick. 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 4: Well, he was the he was the leader. 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: He was the guy. 49 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 4: The Tracy was the guy Louis. 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: Louis Louis was. 51 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: He was the best that guy I ever worked with. 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 4: We brought it almost twelve. 53 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: Years, I mean were He knew everything about me, I 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: knew everything about his family, I mean everything. I mean, 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: he was he was a seal. He was he was 56 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 3: so proud of being in the military, you know. And 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: one thing, lou was a Navy He was an Navy seal. Yeah, 58 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: you didn't tell you that. 59 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: Actually, Louis was not a Navy seal, though more than 60 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: one person said Louis told him that. Louis told us. 61 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 4: I was an instructor on drug abuse education. I was 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 4: a drug abuse education specialist. 63 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Anyhow, in their day, the eighties and nineties, You've got 64 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: to remember Louis AND's TV didn't depend on forensics or 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: closed circuit video. They didn't have them widely available back then. 66 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 4: Me and Louis. We were We were grunt detectives. 67 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: You know what the grunter is in the army, he's 68 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: a he like a low form of soldier. He's out 69 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: there in the field. We were grunt detectives. That's what 70 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: we did, and I was proud of it. I was 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: proud of being a grunt detective. Any good case, it's 72 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 3: some detective, some grunt, and Louis will tell you the 73 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 3: same thing, and some detective is out there busting his ass, 74 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: sticking his balls out, putting the case together. We used 75 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: to say, the purp ain't gonna jump out of the 76 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 3: fucking folder. You got to make things happen. You have 77 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: to get out to talk to people. You gotta keep 78 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 3: going back, You keep going back. Louis Louis hell street cop. 79 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: He had a reputation of Brooklyn, one of the best 80 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: street cops. 81 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 5: When I actually worked with him, it was incredible to 82 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 5: me that, you know, we would go up and down 83 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 5: easton Parkway and everybody knew him. 84 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: This is Joe Ponzi, who was chief investigator at the 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: District Attorney's office. 86 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 4: You know everybody knew him. Hey, Louis, Louis, you know 87 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 4: he pulled the. 88 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 5: Car on the median on Easton Parkway, you know where 89 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 5: people aren't supposed to park. 90 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 4: When he got out, everybody would just wave. 91 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 6: You know. 92 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 5: He was just he was a lodger than life character 93 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 5: that everyone knew. Louis was a legend in the precinct 94 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 5: at that time. He was involved in everything. If there 95 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 5: was a robbery in progress in a in a in 96 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 5: a gas station, Louis was there. Louis, you know, he 97 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 5: was just that kind of a guy. He was always 98 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 5: in the fray. He was always in the mix. People 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 5: didn't mess with him. You weren't going to push him around. 100 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 5: There was an area that you weren't going to invade. 101 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 5: And he just he admitted that he had a way 102 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 5: of letting people know he was the boss. 103 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 4: He wasn't certainly wasn't going to be intimidated. 104 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't. 105 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 5: I don't think that that's even in his repertoire. He 106 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 5: can't be intimidated. 107 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: Louis couldn't be intimidated, and he loved the action and 108 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: Stevie Camille followed Louis into more than one violent street confrontation. 109 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: Remember that fight that starts our series, Steve and Louis 110 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: against the big murder. Sus think with the six hour. 111 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: Remember that Louis put his glock to the guy's head, 112 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't work. 113 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: Dick Tracy sometimes recalled the action more vividly than others. 114 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: Pulling the trigger of the clock and it goes out 115 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: of battery. 116 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 4: I don't, I don't remember that. 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: I don't. 118 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: I don't remember that A lot of time though. It 119 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: wasn't just hand to hand combat. It was that grunt work. 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: Louie and I said, we do our street act. 121 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: We'd get out, talk to people, talking to any but 122 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: talking to the pross, talking to the junkies, talking to. 123 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 4: The guys that hang out. He was a results guy. 124 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 3: The supervisors knew if that case could get cleared, that 125 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 3: case was going to get cleared. If it didn't get 126 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: cleid it wasn't for lack of effort. 127 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 4: Louis. 128 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: He related to people on the street, but especially women. 129 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 3: He was good with the women, the women, witnesses, the perps. 130 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: The girls loved him. They want to tell him everything. 131 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 3: He'd get up next to him and he'd start, hey, listen, honey, listen, honey, listen. 132 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: This guy with the women. They loved him, I'm telling you, 133 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: he'd walk in a room. He's like a fucking magnet. 134 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: I'm telling you unbelievable. 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: Stevie Camill remembers one case in particular. 136 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: She was a prostitute and we knew she had killed 137 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: this guy, but there was no witnesses or nothing, and 138 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: Louis just started talking to her. He just said, listen 139 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 3: to honey, we know you were out there. That says 140 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: your street, this is your beat. We are out all 141 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: the time. We know what happened. And he just starts 142 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: talking to her. 143 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: You know, they she'd give it up to him. 144 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: She confesses to a murder because Louis is good looking. 145 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and Louis chalmeder yeah, oh yeah, the same 146 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 3: way he apparently charmed Teresa Gomez, his go to witness, 147 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: remember her. 148 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: She was involved as a witness in six of his cases. 149 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 4: Love Louis, ahsha, love Louis. Yeah yeah, what would she say? 150 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: I gunsmok, you know, and she just liked them like 151 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: you know, and Louis KOBITZI have the big cigar and 152 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: you know they talk. 153 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: Of course, four of Teresa's cases were overturned on emotion 154 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: by the DA. They found her lacking credibility. 155 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 6: He was a pretty compassionate guy and he knew how 156 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 6: to treat people well. 157 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: Bobby Shulman was a precinct detective assigned to work with 158 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: Louis on a few cases, and. 159 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 6: I think that's part of how his success was that 160 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 6: he was able to bring people into him to open 161 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 6: up to him, because a lot of detectives can't get 162 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 6: people to open. 163 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: Up, but Louis was really good at that. Louis famously 164 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: got confessions others couldn't get. Always seemed a little bit 165 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: fishy to me, but Bobby vouch for him. 166 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Like in this one case when the suspect was sitting 167 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: in a cell which was located in the middle of 168 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 2: the detective squad. 169 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 6: There, you know, there was sitting the kid for murder. 170 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 6: He was a little kid, a little skinny little kid 171 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 6: back then. He was probably, I don't know, sixteen seventeen 172 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 6: years old. Louis was in the lunch room. I was 173 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 6: at the desk right next to the cell, and Louis 174 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 6: come out of the lunch room and the kid stood 175 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 6: up and he said to Louise, you know I talked 176 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 6: to you a minute. I got to talked to you 177 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 6: and Louis says, give me the key. So I hand 178 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 6: him the cell key, unlocks the cell. Kids started talking 179 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 6: to him. Louis started writing what he was saying on 180 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 6: the brown paper bag. He chooses Louis because Louis had 181 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 6: that personality. All the detectives sitting in the squad room, 182 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 6: he could have picked any one of us, but Louis 183 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 6: walked by and he went right to Louis. He went 184 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 6: to Louis, I need to talk to you, and he 185 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 6: he confesses, gives up a statement. You know that great 186 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 6: it most certainly does, most certainly does, but very believable. 187 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 6: You know, I was there. 188 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this confession, it wasn't allowed because the suspect had 189 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: a lawyer and Louis wasn't supposed to talk to him. 190 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: Bobby recalled another quality about Louis. 191 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 6: He was a pretty compassionate guy towards not only the 192 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 6: victims families, but also to the bad guy's families. I 193 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 6: went with Louie to go get a bad guy out 194 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 6: of an apartment, and you know a. 195 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: Lot of people. 196 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 6: You got to go in there with force, you got 197 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 6: to go in there prepared. We worked pretty hard on 198 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 6: the case, and finally when we had authorization to go 199 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 6: pick him up. We went and picked him up in 200 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,599 Speaker 6: his apartment and he had a little child in the 201 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 6: apartment with him, and we went in there. We didn't 202 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 6: go in there with force. We knocked on the door. 203 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 6: He opened the door, you know, with detectives. We need 204 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 6: to talk to you. 205 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: Went in the apartment. 206 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 6: Louis told him, listen, you got to come to the precinct. 207 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 6: This is the deal, and you're coming with us, you know. 208 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 6: And guy was like, I got to get someone to 209 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 6: take care of my kid. Let the guy make phone calls. 210 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 6: You're trusting the guy that going to call somebody to 211 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 6: come and get your kid. You know, you don't know 212 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 6: who he's calling or what he's doing. But Louis trusted 213 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 6: the guy. So a neighbor came and took care of 214 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 6: the child, and Louis took the guy, handcuffed him and 215 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 6: put him in a car drow him back to the priesting. 216 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 6: No problem at well, if it was other detectives, may 217 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 6: have been a problem, may have been a problem, may 218 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 6: may have turned bad. 219 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: What the murder, double murder. By the way, the case 220 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: collapsed and the defendant, well, he was acquitted. 221 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 7: Lou he's my guy, he's my man. You know, he's 222 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 7: my friend. The hell of a car great detectives. 223 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: Willie Shaw was not just a cop. He was a 224 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: black cop in a force dominated by Irish and Italians, 225 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: some of whom were frankly racist. Willie said he lived 226 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: in fear of being taken for a purp and shot 227 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: by one of his own, and eventually Willie would be 228 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: Scarcella's boss. In Brooklyn North homicide. 229 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 7: He was one of the good guys, one of the 230 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 7: guys that I got along very well with. 231 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: For Willie, sometimes no one but Louis would do take 232 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: the Token booth case. A terrible murder from nineteen ninety five, 233 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: a token booth clerk was killed by fire that started 234 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 2: as Willie's case. 235 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 7: So I called a homicide squad and I asked the 236 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 7: commanding officer there if I could have Louis and Stevie. 237 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 7: I need them to interview somebody on this case. And 238 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 7: I said, listen to the best you've got and the 239 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 7: best that I know, and I want them, so he 240 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 7: come to my office. Louis could be a gentle soul, 241 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 7: a very understanding person, and people have talked to him 242 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 7: and he could be a gorilla too. I've seen him. 243 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 7: Man jump a guy's face, you fucking talking to you, motherfucker, 244 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 7: slam his hand on the table, you know, and then 245 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 7: he'll calm the situation down and the guy talk. It 246 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 7: takes a hell of a detective to know how to 247 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 7: do that, how to apply what's needed in order to 248 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 7: extract the information as you want. 249 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: One day, Louis and Stevie bring an alleged witness in 250 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: the Token Booth case to Willie's office. They parker in 251 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: an interview room. 252 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 7: So Louis says, you want me to do to do 253 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 7: my thing? I said yeah, I said, I want every name, 254 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 7: every address, descriptions, every thing. Lui says, you got it. 255 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 7: About five minutes later, whore he comes running through my door. Bam, 256 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 7: my door flies open, a boom. He came. He runs 257 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 7: over to me, he says, Willie, we got it all. 258 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 7: We got names, we got addresses, we got who did what. 259 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 7: And the arrest started going down that night and we 260 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 7: got everybody, got everybody. 261 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: That case, the Tokien Booth case, well, it was reversed 262 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: on the motion of the district attorney, which determined that 263 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: the confessions were coerced by Louis and Stevie. 264 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: But still, despite investigations by the District Attorney's office, despite 265 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: media criticism, the cops who were closest with Louis, Stevie Camil, 266 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: Joe Ponzi, Willie Shaw, Bobby Schulmann, they all stand by 267 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: him and continu you need to admire him and their 268 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: work together. 269 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: It's a disgrace what they did to him. I'm telling you, 270 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 3: it's so far from the truth. I miss Louis. He 271 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: was the best guy ever worker twelve years. 272 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: He was the best. 273 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: He's a gentleman intereregoity like you wouldn't believe. 274 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 4: He literally lived that job. He lived it, he loved it, 275 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 4: and he lived it. And for them to, you know, 276 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 4: depict him, I. 277 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 5: Mean, when I see rogue and corrupt, it literally makes 278 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 5: my stomach churn. 279 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 4: And to me, that's all he was ever about, getting 280 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 4: them right. 281 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: So, Dax, what are we to make of this? All 282 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: these cops singing Louie's praises, praising his skills, his integrity, 283 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: his character. They all work closely with Louis. 284 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: They loved Louis then, Yet in every case, these cops 285 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: who work side by side with Louis these guys who 286 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: respected his work, ethic and his instincts, had convictions overturned. 287 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: The cases they'd done with Louie came undone. 288 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, they loved the guy. I mean I 289 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: think they actually some of them fell in love with him. 290 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: You know, this charismatic, muscled man's man, and certainly they 291 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: admired the way he treated people with respect, compassion. We 292 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: got to acknowledge that. And still the district attorney determined 293 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: that each of these four respected law enforcement people in 294 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: a case worked with Louis deprived the defendant of a 295 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: fair trial. Stevie and Louie worked David Ranta together, which 296 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: was overturned because the DA criticized some of Louie's methods, 297 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: and Bobby Schulmann and Louis worked the Jabar Washington case, 298 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: which was also overturned. Willie Shaw had the Token Booth 299 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: case with Louis and that was overturned. And as it happened, 300 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: Joe Ponzi worked with Louis in the case of Derek Hamilton, 301 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: the other star of our series. Derek's case was reversed too. 302 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 2: The DA found the evidence simply didn't add up. 303 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: So Steve Here's where I land. Maybe both of these views, 304 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: the view of Louis fanboys and also of the DA investigators, 305 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: maybe they're both true. Yeah, I mean, the dude is 306 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: admirable to a lot of people. There's just no denying 307 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: that gray street cop who, yeah, put a lot of 308 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: true criminals away, and he's still a cop who didn't 309 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: mind misleading or pushing too hard, rounding an edge or 310 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: ignoring evidence. If he'd read a suspect and made up 311 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: his mind, maybe all that's true. 312 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: And the war on crime you gotta choose sides. I 313 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: think that's what the cops would say, and they chose 314 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: they're riding with Louis for better or worse. This episode 315 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: was produced by Drew Nellis. Our associate producer and production 316 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: coordinator is Austin Smith. Sound designed by Bianca Salinas. Dax Devlin, 317 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: Ross and Me Steve Fishman are your hosts. The Burden 318 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: is a production of Orbit Media. Season two of The 319 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: Burden Empire on Blood will be available everywhere you get 320 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: your podcasts on August seventh. All episodes will be available 321 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: early and ad free, along with exclusive bonus content on 322 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse. Our subscription channel on 323 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety nine a month.