Speaker 1: So many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily
Speaker 1: realize that they don't have a tolerance for having any
Speaker 1: sort of uncomfortable conversation. Welcome to the one you feed
Speaker 1: throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think ring true, and yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on
Speaker 1: this episode is Jillian Richardson, the founder of The joy List,
Speaker 1: which is a newsletter with the mission of making New
Speaker 1: York City and eventually the world, a less lonely place.
Speaker 1: She also hosts the joy List Social, an event where
Speaker 1: you can show up by yourself and leave with a
Speaker 1: new friend, and today Jillian and Eric discuss her new book,
Speaker 1: un Lonely Planet, how healthy congregations can change the world. Hi, Jillian,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I am really happy to have you on. We are
Speaker 1: going to be discussing your book, which is called Unlnely Planet.
Speaker 1: And you do a lot of work around connection and
Speaker 1: building friendships and lots of things that I think are
Speaker 1: really important. We'll get to all that in a minute,
Speaker 1: but we'll start like we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 1: In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's talking with
Speaker 1: her grandson and she says, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second.
Speaker 1: He looks up at his grandmother, says, grandmother, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do for me. What that parable means is
Speaker 1: who you choose to focus your attention on. I find
Speaker 1: it really interesting that they are the sorts of people
Speaker 1: who genuinely believe that people are good, and then there
Speaker 1: are other people who genuinely believe that most people are bad.
Speaker 1: And I often think about what the differences between those
Speaker 1: two types of people. And I'm really fascinated by the
Speaker 1: moments when I kind of can get stuck in that
Speaker 1: head space of just like dating is terrible or people
Speaker 1: are bad, these kind of black and white statements. And
Speaker 1: I find that the more caring energy and attention I
Speaker 1: give myself, the more caring and attentive people I magnetize
Speaker 1: in my own life, and also the media that I
Speaker 1: consume kind of what I choose to put my attention
Speaker 1: on well then also reflecting my experience of the world.
Speaker 1: I love that, and it makes me think of something
Speaker 1: that you talk about in your book. You were quoting
Speaker 1: a study I don't remember who it's from, but basically says,
Speaker 1: protracted loneliness makes it difficult for us to evaluate other
Speaker 1: people's intentions. Lonely people often feel attacked in situations that
Speaker 1: are actually neutral. I thought that was a really interesting insight,
Speaker 1: Like the more often you're alone by yourself, the more
Speaker 1: you almost start to do what you said, which is
Speaker 1: we start to look at other people's intentions more suspiciously. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like you're at a party and someone just glances at
Speaker 1: you from across the room, and your brain might think,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that person was giving me the side
Speaker 1: eye because I look bad, or because they're judging what
Speaker 1: I said, when in reality, they might just be looking
Speaker 1: at you. But you're so alert and looking out for
Speaker 1: signs to confirm your already biased that people don't like you,
Speaker 1: or people are judgmental, whatever that inclination might be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just thought it was interesting that the more lonely
Speaker 1: you are, the more that exacerbates itself. You know, we
Speaker 1: talk a lot about upward and downward spirals on this show,
Speaker 1: and that's a definite downward spiral. Right, So I'm somewhat lonely,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, all right, I'll push myself to get
Speaker 1: out there. And I get out there, and I interpret
Speaker 1: everybody is negative, so I want to do it less.
Speaker 1: So now all of a sudden, I take another downward
Speaker 1: cycle towards like all right, I don't want to go
Speaker 1: back out. Nobody likes me that I push myself finally
Speaker 1: get up the mo see to do at another time
Speaker 1: in similar experience, until all of a sudden, you go,
Speaker 1: all right, that's it. I quit. Yeah, And that leads
Speaker 1: to so many people saying, oh, it's impossible to make
Speaker 1: friends as an adult. For example, how many times I've
Speaker 1: heard people say that, when in reality, I know so
Speaker 1: many adults who are yearning for deep friendships, but they're
Speaker 1: just not matching each other. Let's go right into that,
Speaker 1: because I think that's the heart of what when you
Speaker 1: and I met and we started talking, I was most
Speaker 1: interested in because I'm really interested in this idea of loneliness.
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in the idea of adult friendship. And
Speaker 1: I think it is harder to form friendships as an
Speaker 1: adult than say it was when you were at college
Speaker 1: or as a fourth grader. But to your point, it's
Speaker 1: certainly possible. So let's talk a little bit about what
Speaker 1: are some of the barriers that get in the way
Speaker 1: of making adult friendships, and then maybe we could go
Speaker 1: into some of the strategies for how to do it.
Speaker 1: And I know this is something you in addition to
Speaker 1: writing about, you actually co people on. So I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear some of you know what you find first
Speaker 1: getting in the way, and then secondly some strategies we
Speaker 1: could use. Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is
Speaker 1: having the intention and sticking to it. I think in
Speaker 1: one of your earlier podcasts you mentioned how no one
Speaker 1: gets fit by accident, or maybe it was one of
Speaker 1: your guests that you didn't just wake up one day
Speaker 1: and you're super fit, Like you're putting conscious intention and
Speaker 1: energy into it every day. And I think the same
Speaker 1: thing goes with making friends as an adult, to actually
Speaker 1: set that as a goal. And it's so interesting to
Speaker 1: me how many people find that really strange that someone
Speaker 1: would set that as a goal, because a lot of
Speaker 1: people can tell themselves it's just something I should know
Speaker 1: how to do. I should just have friends. I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have to put this much thought into it. There's something
Speaker 1: wrong with me because I'm trying to make friends. It
Speaker 1: feel is embarrassing, almost like cringe e. And it's the
Speaker 1: same as anything else to say, you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go to a new event two times this month,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have my awareness open for people I
Speaker 1: might want to be my friend. Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 1: You hit on something really important there. When we're young,
Speaker 1: it's I mean not for everybody, but for a lot
Speaker 1: of people, it's easier to make friends because everybody is
Speaker 1: in a similar circumstance. We're all arriving at college together. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're by and large, we're all looking for friends. So
Speaker 1: it seems to happen somewhat more naturally. When we get older,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't happen, Like you said, I often think
Speaker 1: we think there's something wrong with me, or that it
Speaker 1: shouldn't take this much work, and so I think that's
Speaker 1: a big barrier. I think the second thing I was
Speaker 1: thinking about this recently, I was like, it seems like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of mismatch among adults. And what I
Speaker 1: mean by that is, again, when we go to college,
Speaker 1: we are all roughly eighteen years old. And I didn't
Speaker 1: go to college, but I'm I know people what you
Speaker 1: did hear about it. I watched my son do it.
Speaker 1: I'm just using it as an example, but we could
Speaker 1: say the same thing for fourth grade. Right you show up,
Speaker 1: you're all roughly the same age, your lives all look
Speaker 1: roughly the same as in, like, your primary responsibility is
Speaker 1: going to school, hanging out. You know, not not everybody,
Speaker 1: but but most people. But when you're an adult, you
Speaker 1: can run into real mismatches. Like I go to an
Speaker 1: event and I meet somebody, and that person is fifteen
Speaker 1: years older than me, and our life circumstances might look
Speaker 1: very different. They've got three kids and a full time
Speaker 1: job and I am under employed and no kids. It's
Speaker 1: not that those circumstances are unbridgeable. It just means that
Speaker 1: sometimes there isn't room in the same way for friendship
Speaker 1: for both those people, right, Like, I've seen this happen
Speaker 1: a lot. People are like, I can't make friends, people
Speaker 1: don't like me. I'm like, well, it might be just
Speaker 1: that some of the people you're talking to just don't
Speaker 1: have open social calendars. So I think as we get
Speaker 1: as we get older, it gets harder to find people
Speaker 1: whose social needs meet ours, as well as the basic
Speaker 1: things that go into making what a friendship would be.
Speaker 1: So I do think it's harder as an adult, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 1: It's not impossible. And I think also all those factors
Speaker 1: you just said of how many things need to be
Speaker 1: in alignment for you to become deeper friends with someone
Speaker 1: to hold that in mind, and then when you find
Speaker 1: someone who actually has the space to deepen friendships, get
Speaker 1: excited about that person. I think people really hold themselves
Speaker 1: back from being earnest and friendship And if it's okay,
Speaker 1: I would love to give an example of some friends
Speaker 1: I recently made, because I talked to people about this
Speaker 1: stuff all the time, and I know how magic it
Speaker 1: is when the things actually line up. So what happened
Speaker 1: was I had someone he reached out to me on
Speaker 1: Instagram and said was doing a storytelling show. I went
Speaker 1: to the storytelling show and we talked a little bit,
Speaker 1: and he invited me to a party that him and
Speaker 1: two friends host every month. I go to the party.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love the energy of the people there.
Speaker 1: It's just this really warm, sweet group of people. I
Speaker 1: decide I'm going to go to this party every month.
Speaker 1: After the party, message both of the hosts and explicitly
Speaker 1: say I had so much fun at your party. I
Speaker 1: think the energy of the people at parties matches the hosts.
Speaker 1: So I didn't really get to talk to you about
Speaker 1: that much, but I really enjoyed being in your space,
Speaker 1: which is vulnerable to say that it's like kind of
Speaker 1: putting myself out there a little bit. And it's just
Speaker 1: a whole long process of I keep going to this
Speaker 1: party every month, start to become friends with the hosts,
Speaker 1: say just explicitly say I would like to hang out
Speaker 1: with you, start hanging out with them at their house,
Speaker 1: and start to kind of meet their friends. And We're
Speaker 1: all having dinner this Sunday, and I'm so earnest that
Speaker 1: we just started a group chat. And I literally said,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so excited we're in a group chat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is so sweet, because most people don't want to
Speaker 1: seem too excited, like it's lame to want friends. But
Speaker 1: I think it's really brave to say to someone that
Speaker 1: you're excited about getting to know them more. I think
Speaker 1: so too. And you mentioned three sort of relationships strengthening tactics.
Speaker 1: The second one is we really have to practice positivity,
Speaker 1: the reward and enjoyment of each other. You know, we
Speaker 1: did an episode recently where Jenny interviewed Chris and I
Speaker 1: and Chris is the editor of the show, and him
Speaker 1: and I have been friends for I don't know a
Speaker 1: long time, thirty I don't know a lot of years.
Speaker 1: You know, wow, thirty three years something like that. Best
Speaker 1: friends longer than I have been on this earth. Oh
Speaker 1: my goodness. Yes. But we talked a little bit about how,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, when we first became friends, like, we
Speaker 1: were so excited about being friends, and we talked about
Speaker 1: how excited we were to be friends, and we share.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've just always shared this positivity, which I
Speaker 1: think is part of what is contributed to making it
Speaker 1: such a close friendship for so long. It's so nice
Speaker 1: to know and it's really a skill I think, to
Speaker 1: be able to do that with people. For me, when
Speaker 1: I when I meet someone who's able to also offer
Speaker 1: that vulnerability and say, you know, I had a lot
Speaker 1: of fun hanging out with you tonight. I would love
Speaker 1: to do that again. I know this is a person
Speaker 1: I really want to spend time with, because I've looked
Speaker 1: at friendships long enough to realize that's a really special
Speaker 1: quality in somebody. You talk a lot about vulnerability. That
Speaker 1: was kind of the first in these relationships strengthening tactics.
Speaker 1: You know, in order to feel seen, we have to
Speaker 1: practice vulnerability, the sharing of who we are. Is there
Speaker 1: a line for you where vulnerability crosses into needing. Is
Speaker 1: we've all had an experience of somebody who is so
Speaker 1: desperate to be liked that they're hard to like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And there's a difference between that and being vulnerable, And
Speaker 1: I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on what
Speaker 1: that difference is or how you navigate that. I can't
Speaker 1: give a one size fits all answer, but what I
Speaker 1: would invite people to do is check in with themselves
Speaker 1: about their intention behind sharing something and to say, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: am I sharing about some really traumatic childhood experience super
Speaker 1: early on with this person so they feel bad for me,
Speaker 1: Or there's gonna be honest with yourself about what why
Speaker 1: are you sharing this thing? Because that's something I've definitely
Speaker 1: done before of kind of oversharing and then afterwards feeling
Speaker 1: embarrassed like why did I say that? Why? Why did
Speaker 1: I say that to this person? And I think underneath it,
Speaker 1: it is just a really strong desire to connect. And
Speaker 1: but at the same time, by sharing too much too soon,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of creating a power imbalance and I'm putting
Speaker 1: too much on the other person in a way that
Speaker 1: isn't fair. Yeah, And it seems to me that if
Speaker 1: we think about this, it's probably good to know your
Speaker 1: tendency and to be aware of it and correct for it.
Speaker 1: So in the Spiritual Habits program we talk about the
Speaker 1: middle way. It's one of the core ideas and principles,
Speaker 1: and it basically says, look, any virtue, so to speak,
Speaker 1: is a middle point between two vices. Right. Courage is
Speaker 1: a middle point between being you know, rash and idiotic
Speaker 1: and a coward. Right. So knowing which of those sides,
Speaker 1: do I have a tendency to just sit back and
Speaker 1: be way too stoic when I meet new people and
Speaker 1: not share, and not be vulnerable and not expressed that
Speaker 1: I'm excited to be friends with them. If that's my tendency,
Speaker 1: maybe I want to work on course correcting a little
Speaker 1: bit more towards the vulnerable side. If, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: I have a tendency of, you know, ten minutes after
Speaker 1: meeting somebody telling them about you know, my deep dark
Speaker 1: abuse secrets and saying I love you. I hope we
Speaker 1: spend every day the rest of our lives together, right,
Speaker 1: I might want to dial that tendency down a bit.
Speaker 1: And so it's useful to know, like, what is my
Speaker 1: tendency and to correct for it. But my experience with
Speaker 1: most adults is that our tendency is to be much
Speaker 1: less vulnerable, to not take a chance of deepening a conversation,
Speaker 1: of deepening in a relationship. That's been my experience of
Speaker 1: you know, being an adult for thirty years now, almost
Speaker 1: as long as you've been on the planet. I suppose
Speaker 1: you're about to tell me again. I know from your
Speaker 1: writings you believe in cultivating the voices of elders, so
Speaker 1: I'm glad I can. Glad I can fill that role.
Speaker 1: But my experience with most adults is were more on
Speaker 1: the whole back side than we are on the b
Speaker 1: vulnerable side totally. I find there's a specific type of
Speaker 1: person who is craving this more open, vulnerable friendship and
Speaker 1: who also has the opacity to foster that. And I
Speaker 1: find that when we meet each other, we're so stoked. Yes,
Speaker 1: I I heard someone recently say it's like we're in
Speaker 1: the same graduating class. We understand each other. Is kind
Speaker 1: of just way of being in the world. I loved
Speaker 1: that way of phrasing it so much. And while I
Speaker 1: don't specifically coach people on creating friendship in the way
Speaker 1: that you do. That has been something that a number
Speaker 1: of my clients over the years have said, you know,
Speaker 1: they would they would like more of it. And we
Speaker 1: talk a lot about that basic idea of like, at
Speaker 1: some juncture, somebody has to take quote unquote the next step.
Speaker 1: In the same way in a dating situation, somebody has
Speaker 1: got to sort of say, all right, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna take a chance of seeing it. Where does this
Speaker 1: go if I take the next step. I think the
Speaker 1: same thing happens in friendship, where even if that next
Speaker 1: step is just to drop one level deeper in intimacy
Speaker 1: of conversation, to say, all right, we been hanging out
Speaker 1: here on the surface, I'm going to take the chance
Speaker 1: to go one level deeper. And I've shared this on
Speaker 1: the show before. I used to do that at work
Speaker 1: all the time, Like I mean, I just in the beginning,
Speaker 1: after I got sober at twenty four, I would just
Speaker 1: walk into a room and be like, hey, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: a heroin addict. You know, I got sober six months ago,
Speaker 1: and over time I was like, all right, we need
Speaker 1: to dial all that down a little bit. But I
Speaker 1: always had that tendency of I would just go a
Speaker 1: little bit deeper than most people would. And I just
Speaker 1: found that over and over that paid dividends for me
Speaker 1: in that it made me much better at my work
Speaker 1: a because people trusted me more and be I just
Speaker 1: made more friends that way, more authentic friendships that way,
Speaker 1: by simply just being willing to be a little bit
Speaker 1: more open about what mattered. Yeah, because I imagine the
Speaker 1: people who are really uncomfortable with you sharing those parts
Speaker 1: of yourself weren't comfortable with the parts of themselves that
Speaker 1: were struggling, and those aren't people that you want to
Speaker 1: be friends with, That's right. Yeah, You're just like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean I never really found it to be that damaging.
Speaker 1: I'm maybe I had good enough self esteem that I
Speaker 1: was just sort of like, well, not everybody has to
Speaker 1: like me. Yeah, but yeah, I just I think that
Speaker 1: is such an important pieces to sort of just recognize, like,
Speaker 1: if I want this relationship, I've met somebody that seems
Speaker 1: like I like them, how do we take it to
Speaker 1: the next level? And I think your suggestions in the
Speaker 1: book of being more vulnerable practicing positivity, and then the
Speaker 1: third one you talk about is consistency. Share a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that. Yeah, I think, especially if people
Speaker 1: live in a big city, it can be difficult to
Speaker 1: find the time to see someone consistently. This is a
Speaker 1: problem I will still run up against having so many
Speaker 1: people I really genuinely love and want to spend time with,
Speaker 1: but then we just don't have the time and energy
Speaker 1: to coordinate our schedules and figure out the spot and
Speaker 1: do the whole thing, And so to have these kind
Speaker 1: of central meeting places. For example, it could be a
Speaker 1: dance party or a house party, or a meditation class
Speaker 1: that you go to or a yoga class. Say Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm doing this thing every week or every month, and
Speaker 1: I know if you want to find me, I will
Speaker 1: be there, or if I want to find you, you'll
Speaker 1: probably be there. And it's a great way to just
Speaker 1: consistently see people, be around the types of people who
Speaker 1: value the same things that you do, and also to
Speaker 1: start to deepen those relationships a little bit. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I've noticed we may be working with
Speaker 1: slightly different demographics potentially, as we've already sort of laid
Speaker 1: out the the age difference between us, right, is that
Speaker 1: a lot of people that I work with say they
Speaker 1: want more community, but their lives are very very full,
Speaker 1: and they just tend to not make time for it.
Speaker 1: That's something that I found very interesting in somebody who's
Speaker 1: trying to build a community, is that people say, yes,
Speaker 1: I want that, Yes I want that, but then they
Speaker 1: don't show up that often for it. Totally. A lot
Speaker 1: of the people that are sort of in our communities
Speaker 1: are going to be people who are deep in career
Speaker 1: and deep in family, so that's part of it. But
Speaker 1: do you see that also where people say I want friendships,
Speaker 1: I want community, but then they just simply don't put
Speaker 1: the effort of the time in. They just default to
Speaker 1: Netflix and hanging out totally. And I think it's especially
Speaker 1: that people don't want the uncomfortable parts that come with community,
Speaker 1: which is there's going to be conflicts, and there's gonna
Speaker 1: be maybe some people you don't like, or you're gonna
Speaker 1: be jealous of someone, or someone's gonna mirror something in
Speaker 1: you that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and it's so easy
Speaker 1: to just be like, well, I guess I'm never going
Speaker 1: to hang out with these people again, or I guess
Speaker 1: I just won't communicate what's going on, and then I
Speaker 1: feel disconnected from these people and then I kind of
Speaker 1: just drift away, and I tell myself, Oh, we just
Speaker 1: drifted apart. But really, I haven't been communicating the truth
Speaker 1: of my heart, and I've been creating this distance myself.
Speaker 1: That was a lot. I had a lot of energy
Speaker 1: behind that, but it really feels very annoying to me
Speaker 1: because I think so many people share the struggle and
Speaker 1: just don't necessarily realize that they don't have a tolerance
Speaker 1: for having any sort of uncomfortable conversation. I am not
Speaker 1: a good group joiner. I think I'm decent at fostering
Speaker 1: individual relationships, but I've never been a group joiner. Particularly
Speaker 1: over the last five years, I've gotten clear that a
Speaker 1: lot of it is what you were just saying. I'm
Speaker 1: looking for the perfect community. I'm looking for the community
Speaker 1: where I like everyone. So if I'm thinking of a
Speaker 1: Buddhist community or a spiritual community, I'm like, yeah, those
Speaker 1: couple of people seem alright, but I don't like those
Speaker 1: three people, so this isn't the place for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm never coming here again, which is what I
Speaker 1: would do over and over and over. And so I
Speaker 1: heard somebody say once and you words a little bit.
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly which ones, but you alluded to
Speaker 1: it a little bit, which was that part of the
Speaker 1: point of community is to rub off our rough edges,
Speaker 1: that by interacting with these other people, it smooths us
Speaker 1: out and allows us to integrate more harmoniously into a group.
Speaker 1: And I thought once I heard that, I went, oh,
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. The point here isn't
Speaker 1: that I like everybody and they're all my best friends.
Speaker 1: The point is I'm interacting with a variety of different people,
Speaker 1: and that there's benefit and beauty in that. Totally. There's
Speaker 1: benefit and me being around people who I wouldn't choose
Speaker 1: to be my friend, but the sheer nature of our
Speaker 1: differences is actually good for us just to be able
Speaker 1: to be in that. How do you work with people
Speaker 1: who are saying, yeah, I want community, but aren't putting
Speaker 1: the effort in to get it. It's very similar to
Speaker 1: somebody who says they want to be in shape, but
Speaker 1: they're not putting the effort to get into it. What
Speaker 1: sort of things have you found helps I think the
Speaker 1: biggest thing is to start by asking questions around their fears.
Speaker 1: Say well, okay, there's clearly something that's preventing you from
Speaker 1: doing this because if you were a hundred percent in
Speaker 1: you wouldn't need anyone to help you. You would just
Speaker 1: be doing it. So a lot of times I'll ask
Speaker 1: people what's been your experience with communities in the past,
Speaker 1: And oftentimes something really awful will come up, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I was part of this group and a girl in
Speaker 1: the group like cheated on my boyfriend. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, that my boyfriend cheated on me
Speaker 1: with this person in the group. There was a terrible experience,
Speaker 1: or I got bullied, or I didn't feel like I
Speaker 1: fit in there, anything along those lines where unconsciously they're thinking, well,
Speaker 1: I had a really bad experience in a community before,
Speaker 1: so why would I want to put myself through that again?
Speaker 1: But just don't take the time to reflect on it,
Speaker 1: because I think even in the world of personal development,
Speaker 1: where we reflect so much on all these elements of
Speaker 1: ourselves cons and rarely think about our relationship to group
Speaker 1: and kind of in group out group, what's my experience
Speaker 1: with community? Because culturally we don't care about it very much,
Speaker 1: so I would we think about it consciously? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. So if I am
Speaker 1: a person and I say, Okay, I'm lonely. I want
Speaker 1: to change that. Where do I start? You know, what
Speaker 1: are some things I can start doing? Let's just say.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'll give you a little bit more
Speaker 1: than that to go on. Um, I work from home.
Speaker 1: I have three or four other people that you know,
Speaker 1: I interact within my company and I've known them for
Speaker 1: a while and they're fine, but we're not going to
Speaker 1: be great friends. I don't have a church that I
Speaker 1: want to go to. I'm lonely, and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where to start. What are some initial steps I can take?
Speaker 1: And you can tailor this answer two ways. You can
Speaker 1: tailor it towards New York City, which is or a
Speaker 1: big city, which is where you are and you've created
Speaker 1: something called the joy List and lots of great things,
Speaker 1: But we could also talk about people who are in
Speaker 1: a place that's not quite so vibrant. Yeah, I'll go
Speaker 1: a little more general. And I feel very excited about
Speaker 1: this question. The first question I always ask people is
Speaker 1: what kind of person do you want to be? Who
Speaker 1: do you want to be just in life? And also
Speaker 1: how do you want to exist within the place where
Speaker 1: you live? Could be New York City, could be somewhere
Speaker 1: else because you might not want to be a group person.
Speaker 1: You might say, you know, my ideal vision for my
Speaker 1: friendships and my community is maybe I'm kind of the
Speaker 1: hub for parties in my neighborhood. I have dinner parties,
Speaker 1: people come to me. I have an awesome backyard. I've
Speaker 1: got a core group of ten friends, and we host
Speaker 1: stuff once a month. That might be your vision for yourself,
Speaker 1: and that's awesome, like already having just a vision for
Speaker 1: what you want, but especially the qualities to say, I
Speaker 1: want to be around people who care about spirituality. I
Speaker 1: want to be the kind of person who's a generous host.
Speaker 1: I want to care for my body. Even to say, okay,
Speaker 1: what types of pe will care about those things? Where
Speaker 1: can you meet those types of people? Because if you
Speaker 1: want to meet spiritual nerds who love working out, just
Speaker 1: go into the bar every Friday night. You're probably not
Speaker 1: going to meet those people. Or if you do meet
Speaker 1: those people, you don't know that you're meeting those people
Speaker 1: because you're not in that context. Yep, let's run with
Speaker 1: this example. So let's say I live in a midsized
Speaker 1: community somewhere in the US, and I'm like yeah, that
Speaker 1: is what I want. I just moved to this new town.
Speaker 1: I'd like to have a small group of friends. I
Speaker 1: do have a wonderful backyard and I've got a great patio.
Speaker 1: I love to cook dinner. I just love to have
Speaker 1: a group of friends that gets together once or twice
Speaker 1: a month in my backyard and we hang out and
Speaker 1: we have dinner and we just have some nice conversation
Speaker 1: Like that would be amazing for me compared to where
Speaker 1: I'm at. Now, what do I do? Someone came to
Speaker 1: you with that's what I want. So I have some friends.
Speaker 1: They are nomads and they're constantly traveling, but they're somehow
Speaker 1: also always hosting things themselves, even in countries where they
Speaker 1: don't really know people, and it's wild. And I asked them,
Speaker 1: how do you manage to pull this off? And they'll say, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I know three people in this town, and I tell
Speaker 1: them I want to host a dinner party. Can each
Speaker 1: of you invite three people? And you could even say
Speaker 1: can you invite three people you know who might love spirituality?
Speaker 1: If you want to get a little more specific. Suddenly
Speaker 1: you have a ten person dinner party. And then at
Speaker 1: the end of that say you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do this again next month, same day next month. Would
Speaker 1: load if if you guys could invite some people. I
Speaker 1: want to make this a monthly thing and even having
Speaker 1: the next day and saying to people, I'd love for
Speaker 1: you to come again. I have two friends who do
Speaker 1: this every month and they have an incredibly vibrant community
Speaker 1: that comes to them. It's a pretty sweet deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you take whoever you know and you use those
Speaker 1: people to sort of network out from there totally. And
Speaker 1: even if you want it to be as vulnerable as
Speaker 1: saying I want to create a deeper community for myself here,
Speaker 1: it would be so helpful you guys can invite some
Speaker 1: folks Like that feel really good for me because I
Speaker 1: find when people know why you're asking them something, they're
Speaker 1: more likely to do it instead of you just being like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, invite some friends if you want. There's a
Speaker 1: reason why you're asking them to do that, right, You're
Speaker 1: taking that step of being a little bit vulnerable and
Speaker 1: asking for what you want because it's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: who doesn't want to say like, oh yeah, let me
Speaker 1: invite my three coolest friends so you can meet them.
Speaker 1: This is great? So what if I'm not even in
Speaker 1: that place where I know much of anybody in that town. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I moved here from my job. I'm a shy person.
Speaker 1: I just don't really know anyone. Where do I start there?
Speaker 1: So something that I recommend that is very simple, that
Speaker 1: definitely not easy, is posting on social media if you
Speaker 1: have it, or sending an email and saying, hey, I
Speaker 1: just moved to wherever you live. I'm looking to meet
Speaker 1: people who are interested in blah blah blah. Who do
Speaker 1: you know? And this is something that is so simple,
Speaker 1: But folks love this kind of post on the internet
Speaker 1: because all they have to do is tag somebody and
Speaker 1: they get to feel great about themselves. And it takes
Speaker 1: two seconds. And you might have three, five, ten people
Speaker 1: who all of a sudden you can reach out to,
Speaker 1: and all you have to do is just let people
Speaker 1: know that you're looking for that. That's a great idea.
Speaker 1: What about starting to attend gatherings or volunteer events? All right,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to put myself out there a little bit
Speaker 1: in order to meet some new people. What does that
Speaker 1: look like? How do I go about finding things? What
Speaker 1: do I do when I get there? When I attend
Speaker 1: them again. If you're in New York City, you get
Speaker 1: on Jillian's joy list. Yeah, you do. I see that
Speaker 1: joy list every time. I'm like, I am jealous. That
Speaker 1: is so cool, so much great stuff. There lots of
Speaker 1: weird stuff going on in New York City totally. But
Speaker 1: what do I do if I don't have that? Where
Speaker 1: are some places I can turn to that are more
Speaker 1: broadly accessible ways to find gatherings, things that I'm interested in,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Yeah, so first of all, I would start
Speaker 1: on meet up an event right on event right, there
Speaker 1: is a filter that you can look for. There's there's
Speaker 1: different event categories, and there's one called community. There's literally
Speaker 1: an event category called community. So you can say, Okay,
Speaker 1: what are the community events happening in my neighborhood this week?
Speaker 1: Or you could filter for fitness events. You could filter
Speaker 1: for religious events. You can even filter by a keyword.
Speaker 1: You could look for a women's circle, for example, or
Speaker 1: the word sober and just see what pops up. And
Speaker 1: two then commit to yourself to say, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go to this group at least twice, even if
Speaker 1: the first time I don't like it very much, or
Speaker 1: even if the first time, I feel so nervous and
Speaker 1: I don't talk to anyone, and I feel really weird
Speaker 1: to go twice. And also you said the magic word before,
Speaker 1: which is volunteer. I think, honestly, this is the biggest
Speaker 1: tack for making friends in a new place, is to
Speaker 1: go to an event that has the kinds of people
Speaker 1: that you think you'd like. Like, for example, in New
Speaker 1: York City, there's this big meditation event called Medical Hub,
Speaker 1: and I would volunteer at this event every month because
Speaker 1: the people who volunteer are more likely to want to
Speaker 1: make new friends, Like that's a big reason why people volunteer.
Speaker 1: But also it gives you direct access to the organizers
Speaker 1: of the event, and the organizers of events are usually
Speaker 1: community hubs who are more than happy to introduce you
Speaker 1: to whoever you want. So find events and if you
Speaker 1: can volunteer at them, And I think the other thing
Speaker 1: you said there's really important is to go at least twice,
Speaker 1: you know, if not more right. I've started recently doing
Speaker 1: this thing in Columbus I love doing. It's a volunteers
Speaker 1: called Food Rescue, and it's basically there's an organization they're
Speaker 1: all around the country but they basically find food that's
Speaker 1: going to be thrown away somewhere, whether it's from a restaurant,
Speaker 1: a grocery store, or whatever, and then they match that
Speaker 1: up with a place that needs it, and you basically
Speaker 1: go get it from one place, take it to another.
Speaker 1: But they've had this thing where they distribute these like
Speaker 1: thousands of boxes of produce every Friday. And so I
Speaker 1: was like, all right, I'm gonna start going. And I
Speaker 1: am not actually very good at plot me in a
Speaker 1: new environment with a bunch of people I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't do well in that environment. I am sort
Speaker 1: of shy, I'm sort of quiet, I'm sort of withdrawn.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting. It's not even that I notice that
Speaker 1: I'm shying withdrawn, that's part of it. But but what's
Speaker 1: interesting is my defense mechanisms kicking enough that I don't
Speaker 1: even feel like I want to get to know anybody
Speaker 1: in that environment. It's so interesting. It's like, if you
Speaker 1: ask me on Wednesday night, when I'm going to this
Speaker 1: thing on Friday, would you like to meet some new
Speaker 1: people there, I'm like, of course I would, that would
Speaker 1: be great. Put me there Friday, and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden I'm like, my phone is really interesting to me
Speaker 1: right now, Look at my shoes. Man, maybe I should
Speaker 1: just sit in the car and listen to this book
Speaker 1: on tape. It's so interesting to me the way that happens.
Speaker 1: My defense mechanisms rise up so quickly I don't even
Speaker 1: see them, and then they're like, really, who cares? You
Speaker 1: need to make any sense? So interesting Anyway, I've been
Speaker 1: going to this thing on Fridays, and I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it took like five times before I started actually
Speaker 1: getting into conversation with people Like I was there, we
Speaker 1: were friendly, Hey, how are you doing good? Let's load
Speaker 1: these boxes? Like But after about the fifth time, something
Speaker 1: in me just shifted and I naturally started to just
Speaker 1: sort of emerge from my shell a little bit. And
Speaker 1: so I just know that about me that it takes
Speaker 1: me a little while. And so I know if I'm
Speaker 1: gonna embed myself in something like that, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to go multiple times. But I imagine there are things
Speaker 1: that I could do if I wanted to accelerate that process.
Speaker 1: What might be some ways of getting into the conversational
Speaker 1: low or meeting somebody, or again just going from sort
Speaker 1: of standing there to engage in a little bit more. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you are definitely not alone, or I know
Speaker 1: you're not alone in your experience of going to an
Speaker 1: event that's not facilitated and not being sure how to
Speaker 1: go deeper with people because you don't know the norms
Speaker 1: of the space, you don't know what's acceptable there, you
Speaker 1: don't really know who these people are. It's like going
Speaker 1: to a giant happy hour that's a networking event where
Speaker 1: no one tells you what to do, and you're just like,
Speaker 1: we're supposed to connect with each other? What the hell
Speaker 1: is this? Like this is awful, which is why. And
Speaker 1: I'm such an extroverted person, but I hate things like
Speaker 1: that with a passion because it's such a draining environment
Speaker 1: for me to be in where there is no understanding
Speaker 1: of what you're supposed to do in the space. You're
Speaker 1: you're kind of just thrown into this giant room of
Speaker 1: people talking over each other. So the biggest thing I
Speaker 1: would say is that if you can find an event
Speaker 1: that has facilitation, try that. So, for example, in your city,
Speaker 1: and this is a very New York City thing, but
Speaker 1: there's this thing called Vulnerable af that this woman named
Speaker 1: Veronica runs. It's like a great name, and now she
Speaker 1: she goes on tour and she does it and it's
Speaker 1: so great. But it's essentially just facilitated conversations where she's
Speaker 1: giving you prompts to say to strangers, and there's some
Speaker 1: group exercises and there's no way you're not going to
Speaker 1: leave that event without having had a deeper conversation with someone.
Speaker 1: And the people who show up at that event are
Speaker 1: obviously looking to have deeper conversations with new people, so
Speaker 1: you're kind of already all in the same space. That's
Speaker 1: a great event, and I think it's really good advice
Speaker 1: go to something that is sort of facilitated. It's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I've always been grateful to have
Speaker 1: been a member of a A I'm not real involved now,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, if I moved to a new city, Like,
Speaker 1: how easy is it I just start going to meeting.
Speaker 1: The meetings have conversations that are already structured. You get
Speaker 1: to hear a bunch of people talk and be like,
Speaker 1: I like what that guy had to say, I like
Speaker 1: what she had to say. Okay, those are kind of
Speaker 1: people I got my eye on. It makes it happen
Speaker 1: so much easier. Than what you described, which is like
Speaker 1: this food rescue situation where I show up and again, now,
Speaker 1: this organization is not designed to help people meet each other.
Speaker 1: It's designed to get food to the places it needs
Speaker 1: to go. So if my food rescue friends are listening,
Speaker 1: that none of this is criticism, right, Like, it's not
Speaker 1: what it's about. But you describe this sort of event
Speaker 1: that a lot of us show up to, we go,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to volunteer here somewhere. And I
Speaker 1: think you make a really good point that where we're
Speaker 1: volunteering puts this in proximity to the people, But there
Speaker 1: are no real rules for interaction, and there's no guided interaction.
Speaker 1: It kind of falls all on your own moxie. And again,
Speaker 1: what I've learned about me is that my moxie will
Speaker 1: grow over time. You know, there's just something that naturally
Speaker 1: thaws in me if I'm around the same people enough times.
Speaker 1: But I love that idea of going to things that
Speaker 1: are facilitated as a way of that naturally happening. In
Speaker 1: our Spiritual Habits Group program, I think we break the
Speaker 1: big group up into small groups that meet every week.
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of really great, deep relationships
Speaker 1: formed there, and I think to a large extent, it's
Speaker 1: what we train the facilitators. But secondly, it's there is
Speaker 1: a facilitated conversation about things that matter to you right away,
Speaker 1: so immediately there is a way to engage and make
Speaker 1: deeper connection because it is, as you said, a sort
Speaker 1: of facilitated event. Questions are asked, there's conversation, it happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think this is why these question card games have
Speaker 1: suddenly blown up in popularity. Like Everyone under the Sun
Speaker 1: has a set of question cards that they're selling, because
Speaker 1: I think make some question cards. S Perel just came
Speaker 1: out with a game based off of her podcast that's
Speaker 1: entirely questions that increase in vulnerability, and they're all questions
Speaker 1: about storytelling so that you tell a story. You should
Speaker 1: have her on your podcast. She she's promoting this new
Speaker 1: game right now, but I've had a few friends say
Speaker 1: that at their dinner parties they've actually played her game.
Speaker 1: And it's so great because I find that when we're
Speaker 1: around the same people a lot, we lose curiosity about them,
Speaker 1: like they kind of just become something that they're just
Speaker 1: they're they're like, oh, yeah, this is my friend I've
Speaker 1: known since I was five. What else is there for
Speaker 1: me to know about this person? And then you asked
Speaker 1: them a question like, oh, what's one of your favorite
Speaker 1: memories of being with your grandma? Like when have you
Speaker 1: ever talked about that with them before? Probably ever? And
Speaker 1: so you're gonna get this whole new thing. I've been
Speaker 1: friends with Chris, as I said, for a really long time.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you the first thing about his grandparents. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I find grandparents is a really interesting thing because most
Speaker 1: adults that would never come up in conversation. But there's
Speaker 1: so much you can learn about someone's family and their
Speaker 1: culture from talking about that. With Chris, It's probably gonna
Speaker 1: end up being a conversation about like drunk uncles or
Speaker 1: something if I find anything about that family. But my
Speaker 1: family to not. I mean, that's a family culture for sure,
Speaker 1: total family culture. I have an uncle who died from alcoholism.
Speaker 1: So I am just in it myself before we maybe
Speaker 1: change directions a little bit. For for the last few minutes,
Speaker 1: what else about making friendship, creating community? What else should
Speaker 1: people know or what are some really important things from
Speaker 1: your coaching practice that you would share with people? I
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing is to really be kind to
Speaker 1: yourself in this process. Folks can be so brutal to
Speaker 1: themselves and so judgmental just being like, man, it's pathetic
Speaker 1: that I don't have friends, Like what kind of loser
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to make friends? Like? These mean vicious
Speaker 1: things people will say to themselves when in reality, the
Speaker 1: average American hasn't made a new friend in five years,
Speaker 1: and of Americans are not satisfied with their friendships. So
Speaker 1: more likely than not, any person you meet is looking
Speaker 1: for new friends and it's looking for deeper connection. And
Speaker 1: the people who have really rich friend groups are in
Speaker 1: the vast minority, and that's so important for people to
Speaker 1: keep in mind. Yeah, that's a really good point. And
Speaker 1: you say early on in your book that loneliness is systematic.
Speaker 1: It's not an individual problem. It's systematic, right, So to
Speaker 1: your point, if we don't have as rich a friendship
Speaker 1: or community life as we want, we are, like you said,
Speaker 1: we are far from alone. A matter of fact, we
Speaker 1: are in the majority, and the way our society is
Speaker 1: set up makes it harder and harder to do that
Speaker 1: and have that. And so it's not an individual failing, totally,
Speaker 1: not an individual failing at all. I think the second
Speaker 1: thing there is kind of what I just did a
Speaker 1: little bit not to be like, oh look how great
Speaker 1: I am. But if you'll know, I'm great now. But
Speaker 1: but when I talked about going to this food rescue
Speaker 1: thing right like fifteen years ago, I'd have been really
Speaker 1: hard on myself, like why are you not talking to people?
Speaker 1: You're not meeting people? What's wrong with you? And now
Speaker 1: I I'm just a lot more kind with myself, and
Speaker 1: I go, I know my process. It takes me a
Speaker 1: few times, so okay, yeah, that's the way I am.
Speaker 1: So I know I just need to go a few
Speaker 1: more times. I'll get there instead of being like walking
Speaker 1: in the first time and be like, if I don't
Speaker 1: walk out of here with three friends, I failed. And
Speaker 1: I think that's how a lot of us orient towards this.
Speaker 1: I want more friends, I'm gonna go to this event,
Speaker 1: I walk out, I don't have any friends. I failed,
Speaker 1: and so I'm not gonna do it again, because who
Speaker 1: wants to keep failing totally? And how many people have
Speaker 1: that mindset in all sorts of things like a job
Speaker 1: interview or going on dates be like, well, this one
Speaker 1: was bad confirms what I already thought, so I'm just
Speaker 1: not going to do this again. Yep, that's a really
Speaker 1: good point. You had some funny things I saw on
Speaker 1: social recently. You know, I think you're dating, and you
Speaker 1: and your friends were riffing on reasons that somebody might
Speaker 1: not be getting back to you, um, the different reasons.
Speaker 1: And I was laughing because because the interpretation is they're
Speaker 1: not getting back to me because they don't like me,
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, they might be tripping on LSD,
Speaker 1: they might be high a f you know, they might.
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny, like just riffing, like, here's
Speaker 1: all the different reasons. Yeah. I was talking to female
Speaker 1: friend because we're both dating, and how funny it is
Speaker 1: that if, like we're at a party and someone's being
Speaker 1: kind of weird with us or they're not responding to
Speaker 1: our text, our assumption is, well, they think I'm gross
Speaker 1: and bad and I'm just awful and that's why they're
Speaker 1: not asking me out or whatever. And then we started
Speaker 1: talking about actual reasons when we've misinterpreted what was going on,
Speaker 1: and she told the funniest story of how this guy
Speaker 1: was sending her text that didn't make sense. And she
Speaker 1: thought that he was trying to avoid going on a
Speaker 1: date with her, when in reality, he was just tripping
Speaker 1: super hard. You know, it's like the best story. That's
Speaker 1: a greeting, like keep your phone off. Your person might
Speaker 1: not be making maybe they're drunk or maybe they're higher
Speaker 1: I don't know. Also, thank you for supporting my internet life.
Speaker 1: It feels good. You know, you're in the middle of
Speaker 1: the psychedelic renaissance when you have to be like, well,
Speaker 1: we're no longer talking about drunk dialing, we're talking about
Speaker 1: ripping texting. Don't do it. I want to shift directions
Speaker 1: for a second and talk about something that you have done. UM.
Speaker 1: One program you did was called Allied, although you've done
Speaker 1: several others. Allied was a seven week training for white
Speaker 1: leaders to skillfully engage in conversations about race. And we've
Speaker 1: had a bunch of conversations around race on this show.
Speaker 1: We're primarily a white audience. UM, I'd love to know
Speaker 1: some of what you've learned through those various trainings you've done.
Speaker 1: I know I'm asking you a huge topic with you know,
Speaker 1: like four minutes left in the conversation, so, but any
Speaker 1: anything that really stood out to you that gave you
Speaker 1: like okay as a as a white person. If I
Speaker 1: want to be a better ally, here are some of
Speaker 1: the things I'm going to do. Yeah, I can quickly say. So.
Speaker 1: Allied was led by this teacher named Harry Pickens, who
Speaker 1: is a black man who wanted to work with white leaders.
Speaker 1: And the biggest thing I got from that was how
Speaker 1: can we train our nervous systems to be okay in
Speaker 1: conversations where we are not comfortable, especially with people who
Speaker 1: do not agree with us. And a case study we
Speaker 1: were looking at a lot is Darryll Davis, who is
Speaker 1: a black man who famously befriended members of the Clue
Speaker 1: Klux Plan and then actually got them to leave because
Speaker 1: he was in relationship with them. And the process took
Speaker 1: a very long time. And of course that's not an
Speaker 1: approach that a lot of people agree with, but it's
Speaker 1: one that is really interesting in that that's the ultimate
Speaker 1: example of being comfortable across lines of difference and being
Speaker 1: with people who might not like you at all. And
Speaker 1: so I have really tried, and of course, as I'm
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm judging myself for not doing better, but
Speaker 1: to be with folks who are white conservatives, for example,
Speaker 1: to talk about their beliefs or to be comfortable, because
Speaker 1: I can really fall into people pleasing to be comfortable
Speaker 1: enough to challenge people and just to say just how
Speaker 1: having these sentence stems in my back pocket, like oh
Speaker 1: why do you think that? Or oh has that been
Speaker 1: your experience, and to just give people the space to
Speaker 1: kind of talk out this thing they might think of
Speaker 1: without without questioning it. So that's one thing. And the
Speaker 1: second thing I'll quickly say is that I did this
Speaker 1: training called Bridges and Boundaries, which was three days. Uh
Speaker 1: primarily white folks, but there are also some black folks
Speaker 1: in the room, and it was a very intense, super
Speaker 1: in your face training about looking at your own racism.
Speaker 1: And really the main point that I got from that
Speaker 1: was that white people are racist, and we do think
Speaker 1: that we're better than other races, and we have to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that in ourselves in order to move forwards and
Speaker 1: to just and I feel hot even saying that out loud,
Speaker 1: but to be like, I think I'm better, I have
Speaker 1: to tell myself that I've been so programmed my entire
Speaker 1: life and our country has been pro grammed to think
Speaker 1: that I'm better and people of color know that we
Speaker 1: think that, and if we can't say that to ourselves,
Speaker 1: we can't do any work. I mean, that weekend kicked
Speaker 1: me in the face. It was not fun. I bet
Speaker 1: you know. It makes me think my initial like instantly,
Speaker 1: that uncomfortable nous raises a defense in me or I
Speaker 1: long ago. But people of other racists think they're better
Speaker 1: than that. There's an in group outgroup thing, right, But
Speaker 1: the difference, of course, is that our race is controlling
Speaker 1: everything and is in charge of everything. We interviewed Ebermex
Speaker 1: Kendy on the show, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: he talked about that I found so valuable was to
Speaker 1: move away from saying I am or I am not
Speaker 1: a racist, or you are or you are not a racist,
Speaker 1: and instead to say I have some racist thoughts, I
Speaker 1: have some racist beliefs, I did a racist thing. And
Speaker 1: I found that a really interesting switch, because it's a
Speaker 1: little bit like the difference between shame, I am bad,
Speaker 1: I am a racist. Two I do think racist things. Oh,
Speaker 1: I have behaviors, actions, etcetera that are that way, and
Speaker 1: thus silly I can work on changing them. For me,
Speaker 1: that was a way of sort of being able to
Speaker 1: walk into the ground you're talking about and go, yes,
Speaker 1: I do I have racist thoughts. I think things that
Speaker 1: are racist, I have done things that are racist thoughts
Speaker 1: that run through my head was really helpful because then
Speaker 1: it I was able to sort of again step out
Speaker 1: of the shame of I'm this awful person too. I
Speaker 1: have these behaviors, right, Which is the sort of the
Speaker 1: difference between I think healthy guilt and shame shame as
Speaker 1: I'm bad. Healthy guilty is I'm doing things that don't
Speaker 1: match my values. I want to change. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think a part of this training that was so impactful
Speaker 1: of having it be a mixed race group was to realize, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's so uncomfortable for me to look at these racist
Speaker 1: parts of myself, and if I don't, I'm going to
Speaker 1: keep unintentionally hurting these other people in the room. So
Speaker 1: which which one am I going to choose? Because we're
Speaker 1: we're being forced to choose, like look at ourselves and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I don't examine this stuff, which I have the
Speaker 1: full power to never examine and never look at and
Speaker 1: never think about because it's deeply uncomfortable, I will for
Speaker 1: the rest of my life hurt people more. And of
Speaker 1: course I'm still going to do racist stuff for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life, because it's just I'm a human,
Speaker 1: but I'll probably do it a little bit more, or
Speaker 1: at least I'll be able to apologize more skillfully in
Speaker 1: the future if I look at this stuff that's really
Speaker 1: powerful and and really difficult work. We're at the end
Speaker 1: of our time. You and I are going to go
Speaker 1: into the post show conversation, and I actually want to
Speaker 1: explore something you said a few minutes ago in more detail.
Speaker 1: You talked about challenging people or having open conversation with
Speaker 1: people who think different things in US, particularly maybe around
Speaker 1: a topic like race. As we head into the holidays,
Speaker 1: many people are gonna be about to get some great
Speaker 1: opportunities for this, and so let's talk about some skills,
Speaker 1: because I do think there's there's a difference between turn
Speaker 1: my Thanksgiving dinner table into a nuclear war versus actually
Speaker 1: engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me
Speaker 1: in a hope of increasing understanding. So we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like
Speaker 1: access to the post show conversation, you can go to
Speaker 1: One you Feed dot net Slash Join, you get this
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Speaker 1: you Feed dot net Slash Joint Jillian, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on. I have really really enjoyed this
Speaker 1: and it's been a pleasure to get to talk with you.
Speaker 1: For everyone, Thank you for having me. I feel super energized.
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