Speaker 1: Do you guys have Spotify, Yeah, like the one that
Speaker 1: comes with my phone. I don't know how to use
Speaker 1: the extra parts of it. It comes with my phone, doesn't
Speaker 1: it have you?
Speaker 2: It doesn't come with your phone.
Speaker 1: I didn't download it. It's just on my phone.
Speaker 3: Well, Danielle, have you noticed the new day List feature?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Okay?
Speaker 3: So they used to do something called like a daily Mix,
Speaker 3: and they would.
Speaker 2: Make every much of them.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, now they just have something called the day
Speaker 3: List and if you click on it every couple hours,
Speaker 3: it updates and it makes a new list for you
Speaker 3: of like what it recommends based on what you've been
Speaker 3: listening to.
Speaker 2: Look, I got it. I just opened it and it
Speaker 2: says new music for you, and then it's a single
Speaker 2: but it's sponsored.
Speaker 3: No, you got to go to day List and it
Speaker 3: actually them.
Speaker 5: So I want to do two Truths in a Lie.
Speaker 3: Where my day List, Yes, because they have been remarkable
Speaker 3: and I want to see if you guys can spot
Speaker 3: the lie. Uh So we played two Truths in a
Speaker 3: Lie when we would do our live show, but I
Speaker 3: don't think we've done it on the podcast, or maybe
Speaker 3: we have one once or twice.
Speaker 5: But yeah, so two of these.
Speaker 3: Are real, okay, titles for collections of music that Spotify
Speaker 3: has recommended for me based on my listening taste, and
Speaker 3: I guess my personality, and one of them is a lie.
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Is this a day list created by Spotify for right
Speaker 3: or strong Granola Vibes Van Life Friday Afternoon?
Speaker 2: Oh my god? Wait, is that the name of the
Speaker 2: playlist or that's the name of a song.
Speaker 5: No, that's the name.
Speaker 3: It creates the playlist and you click on it and
Speaker 3: it tells you what it's created for you.
Speaker 1: That has to be real.
Speaker 3: Number two okay, Cottage Core, Crunchy Folk Tuesday Night or
Speaker 3: Sleeping in Sad Girl.
Speaker 5: Indy Thursday Afternoon.
Speaker 1: Oh all, I want them all to be real and
Speaker 1: all to be lies. Oh it's magical. I think the
Speaker 1: first one, the Crunchy Van Life, has the granola Crunchy
Speaker 1: Van Life, but it's so on the note.
Speaker 3: It wasn't crunchy, it was Granola Vibes Van Life Friday
Speaker 3: after the other one was Cottage Core, Crunchy.
Speaker 5: Folk Tuesday Night.
Speaker 3: It's crunch or Sleeping in Sad Girl Indy Thursday Afternoon.
Speaker 1: Oh insad, I'm gonna Oh god, they're all magic.
Speaker 6: I know.
Speaker 5: I almost wanted to do three lies because there was
Speaker 5: just there was good for.
Speaker 1: A part of me. See, this is where I get
Speaker 1: the rider's head, because part of me wants thinks that
Speaker 1: first one you're using not to throw us in. The
Speaker 1: last two are reel. But I think the Van Life
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say the lie is the
Speaker 1: middle one. I think Van Life and Indie are true
Speaker 1: and the middle one is the lie.
Speaker 2: That's I completely agree with you. And by the way,
Speaker 2: the second one is actually my favorite, my favorite name,
Speaker 2: which is the reason why I suspect writer created it,
Speaker 2: because it's like poetry. The other two are just slightly
Speaker 2: ai enough, but I think they're right.
Speaker 3: Yes, you guys go, but cottage Core and Crunchy have
Speaker 3: come up so many times. So another real one was
Speaker 3: Happy Folk Crunchy Wednesday afternoon, Oh my god. Another le
Speaker 3: one was Mountain Home Tuesday night.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I have one called mood Swing Teddy Bear
Speaker 2: Friday morning.
Speaker 5: There you go.
Speaker 3: It's perfect.
Speaker 1: Do you have to pay for these?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: It's well if you have to pay for Spotify, But
Speaker 3: if you have, but no, won't. It'll update every three hours.
Speaker 3: So just write that one down because I had to
Speaker 3: start writing these down because you can't access the old ones.
Speaker 3: It keeps updating based on what you listen to. So
Speaker 3: you're in a mood swing, You're in a mood swing,
Speaker 3: Teddy Bear World whatever?
Speaker 1: Wait, where does this? Where do you find them?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 3: You go to Spotify It When you go to a playlists,
Speaker 3: it has something called day list, and when you click
Speaker 3: on day List, it gives you the name of your
Speaker 3: current day list and it'll keep updating every three hours
Speaker 3: or so. And every time I click on it, I'm like, Wow,
Speaker 3: this is hysterical and.
Speaker 5: By the way, pretty accurate.
Speaker 3: Like what I want.
Speaker 5: It nails me pretty much every time.
Speaker 2: You know, what's interesting is that all morning I've been
Speaker 2: listening to like twenty seconds of songs because we're trying
Speaker 2: to pick what song we're gonna do for rock and
Speaker 2: roll Holliday.
Speaker 3: That's why it's a mood swings all over in a place.
Speaker 3: My god, stop drinking.
Speaker 1: Oh god, that's great.
Speaker 5: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: You will have so much fun just clicking and being like,
Speaker 3: oh yep.
Speaker 2: Firefox Friday Morning.
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, Crunchy is big for me. Cottage course comes
Speaker 3: up all the time.
Speaker 5: The hell is cottage?
Speaker 3: Yeah, crunchy. It just so'm like crunchy granola hippie.
Speaker 1: Are you guys on premium? Is that? Are you paying
Speaker 1: for this?
Speaker 4: Is that?
Speaker 1: That's what it is. I just watched all my music
Speaker 1: on YouTube. There you go, I do It's well.
Speaker 5: Then you don't get the joy.
Speaker 2: I love my scription. Yeah, welcome to Pod Meets World.
Speaker 2: I'm mood swing Teddy Bear Friday morning.
Speaker 3: I'm happy full crunchy Wednesday Rider.
Speaker 1: And I'm not on premium Spotify. I'm will for now.
Speaker 2: We will be taping a live episode of Pod Meets
Speaker 2: World at Disney California Adventure Park on December fourth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five.
Speaker 1: If you live in the Southern California area or if
Speaker 1: you can be in the Southern California area on December fourth,
Speaker 1: we have an opportunity for you to join us.
Speaker 2: Between now and November twenty fourth of twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: you can enter for your chance to win tickets to
Speaker 2: attend the Coast one oh three point five private holiday
Speaker 2: Party at Disney California Adventure Park on December fourth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five, including an overnight stay at the Disneyland Resort
Speaker 2: hotel for a family of four and two day, one
Speaker 2: park per day tickets to Disneyland Park or Disney California
Speaker 2: Adventure Park.
Speaker 3: Plus you'll have a chance to meet us while we're
Speaker 3: taping an episode of Pod Meets World inside Disney California
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Speaker 1: Visit Coast one O three five dot com forward slash
Speaker 1: Pod Meets World Now to enter for your chance to win.
Speaker 2: We've mentioned Dawson's Creek many times on this podcast, and
Speaker 2: not just because it was a tent pole show for
Speaker 2: its decade, but because we knew that eighty percent of
Speaker 2: writers time on the Boy Meets World set was spent
Speaker 2: daydreaming about what it would like to be on a
Speaker 2: real show like Dawson's Creek. Whether it was the complicated,
Speaker 2: relatable relationship of Dawson and Joey Pacey's never ending journey
Speaker 2: for purpose, or the themes of identity, independence, and friendship.
Speaker 2: They were handling real storylines and looking beautiful while doing it.
Speaker 2: Did they share the screen with a bear while covered
Speaker 2: in honey?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: But to be fair, I'm not yet sure I did either.
Speaker 2: And this week's guest may have just been the Dawson's
Speaker 2: Creek character with the most responsibility when it came to
Speaker 2: important and culturally significant storylines. When he moved to Los
Speaker 2: Angeles in his twenties, it took only seven weeks to
Speaker 2: book his first job, a lead on the soap opera
Speaker 2: As the World Turns, which then quickly turned into the
Speaker 2: role of a lifetime Jack McPhee, the new kid in
Speaker 2: Cape Side for season two, catching Joey's attention and putting
Speaker 2: the most important relationship in CW network history in limbo,
Speaker 2: and then came one of the most iconic smooches and
Speaker 2: TV history when his romantic scene with love interest Ethan
Speaker 2: became the first same sex kiss between two men in
Speaker 2: network television history, a milestone by all accounts that we
Speaker 2: can thankfully now say wouldn't even make the news like
Speaker 2: it did back in the year two thousand. He recently
Speaker 2: participated in a spectacular charity event on Broadway, breaking the
Speaker 2: Internet while reuniting the cast of Dawson's Creek to raise
Speaker 2: money for the f Cancer charity in the name of
Speaker 2: their co star James Vanderbeek, who's currently battling co erectoral cancer,
Speaker 2: and now he's set to release a memoir in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty six, all about his time on the show titled
Speaker 2: I Don't want to wait My journey on Dawson's Creek
Speaker 2: without a paddle. So it feels like maybe he's on
Speaker 2: his own podmeats world style journey and we can't wait
Speaker 2: to talk to him about it. So welcome to the podcast,
Speaker 2: a man who made history on the show writer actually
Speaker 2: wanted to be on. It's cur Smithy. Hello, welcome, Thank
Speaker 2: you for being here.
Speaker 4: With us, guys. Good to see you again.
Speaker 2: Good to see you. Well, I just want to get
Speaker 2: this out of the way now because all of us
Speaker 2: were aggressively jealous of you in the nineties. We used
Speaker 2: to look at being on Dawson's Creek as a bit
Speaker 2: of our dream job. Did you know how meaty it
Speaker 2: seemed to the rest of us, you know, kid actors
Speaker 2: at the time.
Speaker 4: That's the first I'm hearing of it.
Speaker 2: Well, we all really wanted to be doing what you
Speaker 2: guys were doing.
Speaker 1: I guessing you never opened your script and went, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sneezing the lottery numbers this week.
Speaker 4: Hey, you guys were doing it a good decade before
Speaker 4: we were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Let's start with getting into your origin story.
Speaker 2: You were raised in Pennsylvania. Were you acting in high
Speaker 2: school at all? Did you have any child actor aspirations?
Speaker 4: I did a little bit. I remember this tenth grade.
Speaker 4: It was a it was a combination of lit class
Speaker 4: and an acting class, same teacher, and what this was
Speaker 4: in sophomores, and the kids would write these children's plays,
Speaker 4: and then the acting class that I was in, we
Speaker 4: picked the best ones and then we'd go around and
Speaker 4: we perform them for all the elementary schools in our district.
Speaker 4: And that was really my first experience with acting and
Speaker 4: kind of got the bug right around then.
Speaker 2: But you didn't move out to LA until you were
Speaker 2: in your mid twenties? Is that right?
Speaker 4: Oh? La, I'd say twenty seven, twenty eight years old.
Speaker 4: I was in New York for since I started acting
Speaker 4: in ninety five, when I was in New York for
Speaker 4: three years before I moved out that way.
Speaker 3: Okay, So were you doing theater in New York?
Speaker 5: Is that how you got in?
Speaker 4: No? I was on it was on As the World Turns.
Speaker 2: Okay, so As the worldlind I was over there and gotcha,
Speaker 2: I mean you When you did move out to LA,
Speaker 2: it only took seven weeks for you. No, No, that
Speaker 2: was in New York. It only took you seven weeks
Speaker 2: to book your first job on As the World Turns?
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 4: You had it right the first time. It took me
Speaker 4: nine months to get my first job in New York
Speaker 4: with no agent, by the way, and you know I
Speaker 4: did my own deal with with CBS on that and.
Speaker 3: She's kept that kept that's great.
Speaker 4: Guys, it was. It was a crap deal, don't I
Speaker 4: don't recommend it.
Speaker 1: It's like representing yourself in a murder trial.
Speaker 4: It probably well, yeah, bad call. And then I just said,
Speaker 4: because I knew one of the guys on the show
Speaker 4: and he was like, hey, there's this great part. Want you.
Speaker 4: I can get you an audition, And when I ended
Speaker 4: up getting a damn thing, and I'm like, just you know,
Speaker 4: just give me whatever you got him give him. And
Speaker 4: he got a bad deal too, So we're like, all right,
Speaker 4: but Danielle, so you had it right the first time.
Speaker 4: So nine months in New York, But yes, when I
Speaker 4: landed in Venice Beach, it took about seven week You
Speaker 4: guys want to hear crazy story real quick? Please?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 4: So in ninety eight, spring of ninety eight and I
Speaker 4: decided New York, I'm done. I got to go to
Speaker 4: l A. I've never been there, scared to sell load
Speaker 4: up the U haul with everything that I own, which
Speaker 4: is like, you know, half the truck in the school,
Speaker 4: and then I've got the girlfriend in there too. And
Speaker 4: of course, if you've ever done that drive, you got
Speaker 4: four days, three days coming off fast to drive and
Speaker 4: do a lot of thinking. So you know, I'm this
Speaker 4: new green actor, hasn't done much at all, and I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 4: what are the two shows, like, what are the couple
Speaker 4: of shows that I'd really want to do? You know,
Speaker 4: if I had my pick? If the Stars the line
Speaker 4: that had my pick, and I was I was a
Speaker 4: big fan of Party five at the time. They were
Speaker 4: kind on the tail end of their you know, they're run,
Speaker 4: but I'm like, you know, that'd be a great show
Speaker 4: to do. And there was this other show that I
Speaker 4: had seen the pilot with this girl climbing up the
Speaker 4: ladder into this dude's window, and I, you know, and
Speaker 4: I remember watching the pilot Dawson's and thinking this thing
Speaker 4: is going to be a huge hit, And you know,
Speaker 4: a couple of months later, sure enough, it was everybody
Speaker 4: really started to love it, and I'm like, I would love,
Speaker 4: you know, on that show. So I I obsessed about
Speaker 4: those two programs for four days. That's just how I
Speaker 4: was back then, just hyper focused. I roll into La.
Speaker 4: My first appointment this is Crazy was for Party five Wow.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't a big role either. It was it
Speaker 4: was to play Neb's boyfriend. I think one of the
Speaker 4: London I think Jeremy London ended up getting it. I
Speaker 4: screwed that audition off. It was terrible. I mean I
Speaker 4: was nervous. It was my first big one in LA.
Speaker 4: You know how it goes. And then a couple of
Speaker 4: weeks later, I had a general appointment, And for you,
Speaker 4: for your listeners, a general is basically it's not an audition.
Speaker 4: You just go in and it's a meet and greet.
Speaker 4: I'm new in town, I am Curve, who I'm all about?
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah blah blah. And it was with Kathleen Lettery,
Speaker 4: who was, as you know, the head casting director of
Speaker 4: the WB back then, and uh we just talked, not
Speaker 4: even not acting, for like thirty minutes. I remember sitting
Speaker 4: in her office on the couch. I get up, Thank
Speaker 4: you very much, and I thought it went okay, and
Speaker 4: she goes out. You know, I'll never hear from this
Speaker 4: woman again, And sure enough, before I got to the door,
Speaker 4: she says her, I don't know what it is, but
Speaker 4: I'm going to find a place for you on our network.
Speaker 5: Jeez.
Speaker 4: Cut to a couple of weeks later and five auditions,
Speaker 4: I'm on Dawson's Creek.
Speaker 5: Wow, so cool?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, you want to talk about manifestation there is?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did you think, oh, this just must want to be
Speaker 2: like this is what it's like for people who moved
Speaker 2: to LA and want to become out. Did you know
Speaker 2: how crazy it was?
Speaker 4: I knew how special a situation it was, and I
Speaker 4: knew how I was blessed. Really, so I felt that.
Speaker 1: Well, you said five auditions later? Was it five random
Speaker 1: auditions or did you have to audition five times for
Speaker 1: Dawson's Creek. I think I read because you know, back
Speaker 1: then we were I was reading for the casting director
Speaker 1: out of the gate, and then you did, you know,
Speaker 1: do the producer's meeting and whatever. I think I probably
Speaker 1: did three of those, and then of course I had
Speaker 1: the network and studio at Tesse.
Speaker 4: I thought, wow, yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, And so you were. You said you were about
Speaker 2: twenty seven to twenty eight, but you were playing sixteen
Speaker 2: on the show.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Meredith and I were the old guys on the show,
Speaker 4: the mcfees we came in. Yeah, we were both in
Speaker 4: our late twenties and everybody else. Michelle was fifteen when
Speaker 4: she started, right man Right.
Speaker 2: We had a similar situation on our show with Trina,
Speaker 2: who played Angela. She was twenty six at the time
Speaker 2: that she joined. She had two kids, she was pregnant
Speaker 2: with her third, and we were all teenagers.
Speaker 1: She was making out with Ryder, who's seventeen.
Speaker 2: Guys, did you have an easy time blending in with
Speaker 2: the younger cast who already had a season together under
Speaker 2: their belt once you got to North Carolina?
Speaker 4: You know, I was nervous. It was nice going into
Speaker 4: it with Meredith. She started one episode before me, but
Speaker 4: we came down to Wilmington the same time, so we
Speaker 4: went through that whole casting process together too, So that
Speaker 4: helped integrating, integrating into a cast of four that had
Speaker 4: I mean, we'd only done thirteen you remember that first
Speaker 4: season was the season replacement, so they hadn't done that many.
Speaker 4: But the show was a hit over the summer, it
Speaker 4: just became huge. And I remember getting out of the
Speaker 4: truck and I think one of the first people I
Speaker 4: saw was Josh and I remember I'm saying, it is, dude,
Speaker 4: give it two months, get ready, your life's going to change.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, sure enough, it did. But it
Speaker 4: was to answer your question, Daniel was super easy. I mean,
Speaker 4: everybody jelled together really nicely. You know, it just worked.
Speaker 1: That's awesome.
Speaker 5: Good.
Speaker 2: How was it handling that kind of spotlight? At the time,
Speaker 2: there were SNL spoofs, rolling stone covers there. It was
Speaker 2: a lot. How did you guys handle all that?
Speaker 4: Uh? We just here's the cool What did you guys shoot?
Speaker 4: Were you in La Yeah? Yeah, okay, So being in Wilmington,
Speaker 4: it's like you're not in Hollywood. You're in it's like
Speaker 4: a camp type of atmosphere, is how I always say
Speaker 4: it something or just a bubble, and you don't really
Speaker 4: know what's going on because you're working so much and
Speaker 4: you know, you were in all these hours and you
Speaker 4: just I didn't I don't pay attention to the publicity
Speaker 4: and all that, so I didn't really know what was
Speaker 4: going on until you start you go to the grocery
Speaker 4: store or whatever. Then you know what's going on for
Speaker 4: hundreds of people start showing up at set, you know,
Speaker 4: on location in Wilmington, and there's you know, a couple
Speaker 4: hundred people across the across the street from all over
Speaker 4: the world. That started happening on st So then you know, okay,
Speaker 4: we're doing something pretty cool here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you were immediately thrown into a relationship with
Speaker 2: Joey played by Katie Holmes. You were a foil for
Speaker 2: everyone who was shipping the Dawson Joey will they or
Speaker 2: won't they? Did you ever run into angry.
Speaker 4: Fans back then, you mean just getting in the way
Speaker 4: between the.
Speaker 2: Two of them, Yes, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4: Remember, because it was it was such a short lived story. Okay,
Speaker 4: I'm sure you want to talk about this, But obviously
Speaker 4: Kevin Mosman had different plans.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly, Yeah, in a different direction.
Speaker 4: I mean when I was hired, you're right, was hired
Speaker 4: to create a wedge in between Dawson and Llanster things up.
Speaker 4: But as you know, a character like that probably is
Speaker 4: not going to last very long. It's not very like yet. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so I'm glad he went down to get the road.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you stuck around a lot longer.
Speaker 3: Well, see if you know when you were cast that
Speaker 3: that was the direction the character was going to know.
Speaker 4: Okay, wow, nobody knew.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you're going to make television history at
Speaker 1: that point, right.
Speaker 4: The w B didn't know. Sony didn't know the No,
Speaker 4: none of the producers knew. It was a It was
Speaker 4: a it was an idea in Kevin Williamson's head. That's it. Jeez. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I just had a long conversation with Kevin a few
Speaker 4: months ago about all this, really for the first time,
Speaker 4: because I'm in the middle of writing a book from
Speaker 4: Dawson's Creed and Kevin was kind enough to give me
Speaker 4: hours on hours of material and we were just talking
Speaker 4: about the old days, and he told me how difficult
Speaker 4: it really was to get the network to agree to
Speaker 4: go down, you know, and have a story like that
Speaker 4: for the first time.
Speaker 5: Right, So did he it in his mind? And that
Speaker 5: is just close to the chest.
Speaker 4: So like on Dawson's every like before, Uh, the four guys,
Speaker 4: they're all facets of Kevin's personality. Kevin's really Kate, you know,
Speaker 4: and then the jokes there's Josh and you know, the
Speaker 4: Brainy Guys is uh Is Dawson, and of course the
Speaker 4: wild Side is Michelle. But nobody was representing his sexuality
Speaker 4: at that time because he was in the closet publicly,
Speaker 4: and he wanted to come out publicly, you know, beyond
Speaker 4: his family and friends. And I think he wanted to
Speaker 4: do that with Jack.
Speaker 2: Wowow that's so beautiful. Yeah, I mean, especially for at
Speaker 2: that time, it was unheard of for network TV to
Speaker 2: see a main character have that kind of groundbreaking turn
Speaker 2: to be revealed that he was gay. Do you remember
Speaker 2: when you were first told of the storyline. How did
Speaker 2: you learn it was going to happen.
Speaker 4: I'll never forget. It's an entire chap in the book. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So we were shooting on location down on Front Street
Speaker 4: in Wilmington, and I remember Kevin and Greg reading. Greg
Speaker 4: Blandy was with him too. I flew down. I didn't
Speaker 4: know this until a three months ago, but they flew
Speaker 4: to Wilmington just to let me know what was going on.
Speaker 4: So he shows Kevin shows up at the set and
Speaker 4: he goes, Curry, want to get a cup of coffee.
Speaker 4: This is like two months into the job for me.
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, yeah, am I getting fired, yeah, that's going
Speaker 4: on here. So I was like, yeah, sure, and on
Speaker 4: the walk, I don't know why I thought of this,
Speaker 4: but I thought of what I just told you guys
Speaker 4: about how all the characters are different pacets of Kevin's personality,
Speaker 4: but a sexuality wasn't represented. I knew he was dead,
Speaker 4: so I'm thinking, I bet you he's going to ask
Speaker 4: me if we want to make not ask me to
Speaker 4: tell me, we're going to make Jack day. And that's
Speaker 4: exactly what happened over a cup of coffee and I
Speaker 4: see his exact words were, Kerr, we want to go
Speaker 4: down to different avenue with Jack, and I went, holy
Speaker 4: crap in my head. Yeah I did say it out loud. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So what happened was I said, look, can you give
Speaker 4: me the day or a couple of days, because I
Speaker 4: need to make some phone calls and basically call everyone
Speaker 4: that I respected their opinion of and see it. You know,
Speaker 4: I need to make the right decision here because at
Speaker 4: that time in nineteen ninety eight, this is a tough one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: And it was a real bummer for me. Honestly, I'll
Speaker 4: be honest about this. It was I was really excited
Speaker 4: because I just got this, I just got my dream job, right,
Speaker 4: and I'm so excited, and now I'm being asked to
Speaker 4: do something very very different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and very controversial at the time. I mean hugely
Speaker 1: controversial at the time.
Speaker 4: We had we had protests outside the stage, yelling and screaming.
Speaker 4: There was a there was a brick wall that separated
Speaker 4: me meeting my lunch from a crowd people that were
Speaker 4: angry as hell. If I had walked out there, they'd
Speaker 4: probably keep the crap out of me. Oh man, because
Speaker 4: it was in the South too, which didn't help, right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So yeah, So I basically called everybody I knew, my dad,
Speaker 4: my agent, you know, my sister, everybody, and they all
Speaker 4: said do it. And one of the conversations I remember
Speaker 4: the most, I asked John Wesley's ship because he was
Speaker 4: there that day and we were having lunch together, and
Speaker 4: he said, Cerve, he goes, do it because you will
Speaker 4: get the best of Kevin Williams is right, Mmm, He's right, Yeah, jeez.
Speaker 3: But part of the risk at the time I remember,
Speaker 3: because I remember being asked to audition for a gay character,
Speaker 3: probably even later, and you know, having my manager at
Speaker 3: the time say, you know, what can happen if you
Speaker 3: play a gay characters, then your type cast is only
Speaker 3: gay characters. And I remember being like, really, oh, but
Speaker 3: it would still was a possibility that that once you're
Speaker 3: labeled as the gay actor, that's all Oh you're going
Speaker 3: to ever play that's I.
Speaker 4: Mean, that's all I was thinking. I mean, that's all
Speaker 4: any of us would have been thinking. I was very
Speaker 4: very scared. Now looking back in hindsight, im or just
Speaker 4: want to say this, I'm super super proud of what
Speaker 4: we pulled off because, as you know, the face of
Speaker 4: television and has changed, and I think, yes, people's acceptance
Speaker 4: of other people sexuality or whatever it might be is
Speaker 4: much more broad and much more open these days. I mean,
Speaker 4: we've got to get there on every television show now. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know it's partly because of what we did that then, yeah, but.
Speaker 1: It's also as an actor to be able to do
Speaker 1: something anything that changes the course of history for television
Speaker 1: and put you on the map. I mean again, people
Speaker 1: remember that the first interracial kiss ever was done on
Speaker 1: Star Trek right with Kirk and Ahura. People are going
Speaker 1: to remember that you were the first gay kill. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are this is things this is something that will
Speaker 1: never go away, and that's really amazing to have that
Speaker 1: kind of impact on something as huge as television.
Speaker 4: Well even to this day. You know, when we do
Speaker 4: these these consent that we all do together, I've got
Speaker 4: there's always at least one person that flew from around
Speaker 4: the world, like France, and he's back from France, comes
Speaker 4: in and he's nervous as hell, and he's got this
Speaker 4: whole thing written out and just you read it, and
Speaker 4: it just I just flew halfway around the world just
Speaker 4: to tell you this, and basically it's always the same.
Speaker 4: It's I probably would not be alive had it not
Speaker 4: been for Jack's storyline and what you guys did back then.
Speaker 4: I know, it's it's it's insane. It happens in the
Speaker 4: q and as all the time, and James and I
Speaker 4: are up there together doing these it's just the only
Speaker 4: I can't even say anything, guys. I just have to
Speaker 4: go out in the audience to just hug whoever it is,
Speaker 4: because that's all I know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean as well mentioned I mean,
Speaker 6: you made history a massive step for the LGBTQ plus
Speaker 6: representation on TV when you kissed Ethan played by Adam Kaufman.
Speaker 2: It was the first same sex network TV kiss between
Speaker 2: two men. Can you tell us what the lead up
Speaker 2: to that was like that week of rehearsal, Like, do
Speaker 2: you remember the thoughts that you were having in your
Speaker 2: head that week?
Speaker 4: Well, there are two stories. There's my story and there's
Speaker 4: a story that came from the producers and writers, which
Speaker 4: I just found out, I mean from my from my side,
Speaker 4: it was basically just navigating these uncharted waters that you know,
Speaker 4: I had never gone down before. I was super nervous.
Speaker 4: You know. Adam Kaufman actually reached out to me a
Speaker 4: couple of weeks ago just run it. He didn't see
Speaker 4: it too nervous, but I'm going to talk to him
Speaker 4: about it for the book. But yeah, it was just
Speaker 4: about I wanted this to be real. Because I'll be
Speaker 4: honest with you. You can use any acting technique you want,
Speaker 4: I don't care what it is, substitution, whatever you want
Speaker 4: to do. But when you lock lips with somebody and
Speaker 4: you feel the scruff, I'm not you can't take it
Speaker 4: around that. It's like I know, oh yeah, so it
Speaker 4: was it was hard for me. I'll be honest, it
Speaker 4: was really difficult. But I just plowed through, put the
Speaker 4: blinders on and just did the best that I could.
Speaker 4: And what was most important to me is that we
Speaker 4: didn't fall into the kind of steering clips. I told
Speaker 4: Kevin this too when I agreed to do it. I said, look,
Speaker 4: I'm going to play Jack straight, and I'm going to
Speaker 4: let your writing make his situations make me gay. I'm
Speaker 4: not going to not We're not changing anything now. Sure enough,
Speaker 4: wardrobe tried to try to change my clothes and hair
Speaker 4: really everything. They did change my hair a little bit,
Speaker 4: which was cool because I felt my hair sucked anyway
Speaker 4: in the beginning. It looked like a tupe, you know.
Speaker 4: It's so that was okay, but that was the That
Speaker 4: was the goal is just to play this character straight,
Speaker 4: play it real, and just let the writing make, you know,
Speaker 4: put them in the situations that make it gay. Now.
Speaker 4: The writer producer story on that day, According to uh,
Speaker 4: I think it was June that told me that they
Speaker 4: were all on phones, like you know, the networks like
Speaker 4: make sure the cameras across the street, and Kevin's like
Speaker 4: make sure they kiss long enough, make sure the camera's
Speaker 4: right in their face. So it was this battle of
Speaker 4: getting they got all the shots because they didn't know
Speaker 4: what the network and studio were actually going to allow,
Speaker 4: and they actually ended up using something that was I
Speaker 4: wouldn't say it's an extreme close up, but it's a
Speaker 4: pretty good close up. Yeah, so it was everybody, you know,
Speaker 4: I found out everybody was pretty nervous about it. Wow.
Speaker 2: Do you remember hearing I'm sure you talked about the
Speaker 2: furious fans outside just a brick wall away from you
Speaker 2: on the flip side. Do you remember at the time
Speaker 2: getting any sort of positive feedback from the LGBTQ plus community.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that didn't happen until later actually, Okay started a
Speaker 4: couple of years later. We started getting some accolades and
Speaker 4: they were inviting me to the award ceremonies and presenting stuff.
Speaker 4: I think we want a couple of things as well
Speaker 4: for the show in that regard, But at the in
Speaker 4: the beginning, now, I don't remember a whole lot of Uh.
Speaker 1: Well, there's little you wonder. I would imagine there's there's
Speaker 1: a luck factor. I guess I would say that as
Speaker 1: this was taking place, this is pre social media, right,
Speaker 1: so I imagine had this same thing happened during the
Speaker 1: time of social media, it would have been a much
Speaker 1: You would have heard from both sides instantly, the hate
Speaker 1: and the love right away. Uh, the impact would have
Speaker 1: been astounding and instantaneous. So there there is a safety.
Speaker 1: We talk about this a lot. There was a safety
Speaker 1: as an actor back in the day of not having
Speaker 1: social media, especially when you're doing something this groundbreaking. I
Speaker 1: mean again, you're you're in completely uncharted territory, which you
Speaker 1: don't there's a reason it's uncharted. You don't know what's
Speaker 1: going to happen. You have no idea what what the
Speaker 1: response is going to be, especially on a show this
Speaker 1: popular that. I mean, it really could have changed that
Speaker 1: in a bad way, could have could have negatively affected
Speaker 1: the show, and it just didn't. It went it went
Speaker 1: the opposite direction. So yeah, yeah, thank god for no
Speaker 1: social media at the time, especially when you're doing something
Speaker 1: that you know is probably going to split some of
Speaker 1: your audience off.
Speaker 4: I agree, I would love to go back to those days. God,
Speaker 4: I so much more work. I know.
Speaker 2: Well, you would appear on the show right through At
Speaker 2: season six series finale. Was it hard to say goodbye
Speaker 2: to a character that you had experienced so much with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, I mean, you guys know how it is,
Speaker 4: season three, season four. Somewhere in there he started to
Speaker 4: get the edge to do something else. But you'll also
Speaker 4: realize that, you know, thank this is the dream job.
Speaker 4: So you hang in there, and you know, when everybody
Speaker 4: just kind of comes in agreement, like I think we're
Speaker 4: done for us in season six, you gotta let go.
Speaker 4: And you know, my wife and I watch Friends all
Speaker 4: the time, and you know, every once in a while
Speaker 4: they come across that last episode. I always, you know,
Speaker 4: and their standing there and think Chandler, they wanted to
Speaker 4: get a cup of coffee, and challenges are like where
Speaker 4: they all walk out and that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always cried every single time I see it
Speaker 4: because it reminds me of what I went through on
Speaker 4: that So I get that it was super sad. And
Speaker 4: of course, you know, the episode itself was about Jen dying,
Speaker 4: so it was that was also sad. So it was
Speaker 4: it was a tough two parter to pull off. I'd
Speaker 4: say those those two episodes and the one where Meredith
Speaker 4: leaves and season four, I think it was that was
Speaker 4: a tough one too.
Speaker 2: Emotional episodes, different emotion, different emotion.
Speaker 1: When you get a Dawson's Creek than you do when
Speaker 1: we have emotional episodes of boyt Me to world, slightly
Speaker 1: different things. I would say now curiously because again, as
Speaker 1: Danielle said at the beginning, as actors, for the most part,
Speaker 1: I mean I was where I was supposed to be.
Speaker 1: But Danielle Ryder a lot of the cast were like
Speaker 1: looking at stuff like Dawson's Creek and going that, that's
Speaker 1: what I want to do, That's what I want to have.
Speaker 1: Did you ever have the op? Was there ever a time,
Speaker 1: like you say, you like friends, did you ever look at,
Speaker 1: you know, a three camera sitcom with an audience and
Speaker 1: go God? Doing Dawson's Creek like shooting a movie every
Speaker 1: day for years is fun. But man, I'd love to
Speaker 1: do that audience show. I'd love to get in there
Speaker 1: and be on like a regular sitcom. Was that something
Speaker 1: that you ever wanted to do?
Speaker 4: It's something I would do, but it wasn't a strong desire.
Speaker 4: I've always been a drama guy. I just love it.
Speaker 4: And you know what you brought a star Trek. I'm
Speaker 4: always been. I'm a huge sci fi every and I
Speaker 4: had never ever done anything in space.
Speaker 1: Whyd you be perfect. Oh my god, you'd be a
Speaker 1: perfect like young captain on a Star Trek something. Are
Speaker 1: you kidding me?
Speaker 4: I would you know a movie of these cons and
Speaker 4: you know sometimes you got the Star Trek people there,
Speaker 4: like I had Brent Spiner next to me a few
Speaker 4: months ago, and I'm just sitting here going.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: It's amazing.
Speaker 4: So yes, I would very much like to do something
Speaker 4: like that.
Speaker 1: That's shocking to me because I think you'd be perfect
Speaker 1: for a young captain kind of or or or the
Speaker 1: New Exo something like that. Perfect. Oh my god, it's
Speaker 1: great casting.
Speaker 4: Let's put it out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah at the U haul, Yeah, drive for four days, just.
Speaker 1: Manifested the rental. Exactly, a great idea.
Speaker 2: You're on a bit of your own pod meats world
Speaker 2: style journey. First with the amazing cast reunion on Broadway
Speaker 2: for f Cancer and the name of your castmate, James Vanderbeek.
Speaker 2: All of the original cast attended. James unfortunately couldn't make it.
Speaker 2: But what was that like? It looked very emotional.
Speaker 4: It was an extremely emotional weekend and one that I
Speaker 4: will never ever forget. It was really incredible to see
Speaker 4: everybody after twenty five years we did get together briefly
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen for that. Wow, intimately, don't think what
Speaker 4: spread it was, but.
Speaker 1: Oh when we all did those think we all did
Speaker 1: those like that? We got together as a cast, you
Speaker 1: got together. There was like twenty different casts.
Speaker 4: A yeah, yeah, So it was good to see everybody again.
Speaker 4: It was you know, Sunday morning, I woke up to
Speaker 4: a voicemail from the director saying, call me, we gotta
Speaker 4: we got a problem, and of course it was James
Speaker 4: not being able to make it, which I mean, you know,
Speaker 4: doing these cons with in the last couple of years,
Speaker 4: I've really gotten to know James all over again, this
Speaker 4: time as you know, fifty something year olds as adults,
Speaker 4: their kids, and it's been very interesting. And this whole
Speaker 4: thing he's going through is kind of hit me hard.
Speaker 4: It's been tough and you know, to see a friend
Speaker 4: and appeer go through all this, especially you know the
Speaker 4: family that he has, which is so awesome. But so
Speaker 4: you know, I'm glad Michelle. Michelle came up with the
Speaker 4: idea to do that. You know, her husband is the
Speaker 4: director of Hamilton, so he was kind enough to let
Speaker 4: us use their stages and their crew on Monday when
Speaker 4: we were down. Yeah, it was a fantastic weekend. We
Speaker 4: got James to record something, so he was there spirit
Speaker 4: and video. It was just incredible. Thirteen hundred people probably
Speaker 4: have the best time in their lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were.
Speaker 4: It was like we were like the Beatles. It was insane.
Speaker 4: It was every The way we laid it out was
Speaker 4: we had these two rows of seats where we all
Speaker 4: sat down, and then there was the five podiums, and
Speaker 4: then when when the narrator would you know, interior Dawson's house, whatever,
Speaker 4: we would walk up where it was in the scene
Speaker 4: and we'd do it at the podiums. And the first
Speaker 4: time that you walk up to do your first scene,
Speaker 4: every single one of it, we had to stand there
Speaker 4: for like twenty seconds thirty seconds until people say it,
Speaker 4: because then they were just screaming. It was insane that
Speaker 4: it was really fun.
Speaker 2: That's so nice, so nice and Linn Manuel Miranda stepped
Speaker 2: in for James. Do you do you think he captured
Speaker 2: the essence of Dawson.
Speaker 4: I think there's only one person that can capture Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but yeah, he did a great job and we will
Speaker 4: certainly appreciated of it.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like the pilot episode held up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean it's just so raw.
Speaker 4: It's so good, you know, with Miss Tomorrow and you
Speaker 4: know that whole storyline was so controversial back then with
Speaker 4: Josh in the Future, just you know, people loved it.
Speaker 4: It was just out of the blue. And the way
Speaker 4: that the characters talk like they're thirty five years old.
Speaker 4: Kevin has always said it's how people would talk with
Speaker 4: their heart. That their heart, which I was so is
Speaker 4: a beautiful way said it better than I think, but yeah,
Speaker 4: it was just yeah, it held up. To answer your.
Speaker 2: Question, is there a big Dawson's Creek group text chat?
Speaker 4: You mean between us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, amongst you guys.
Speaker 4: I know there are many single chats from me to
Speaker 4: them talking. You know, hey, do you remember what happened
Speaker 4: on set twenty six years ago? Are you crazy? No?
Speaker 2: Leave me alone?
Speaker 1: That's our life, that's our life.
Speaker 4: Come on, yeah, quote, I need something for this. This
Speaker 4: I don't remember.
Speaker 2: It's crazy y because you were going down an even
Speaker 2: bigger trip down memory lane with your book. I don't
Speaker 2: want to wait my journey on Dawson's Creek without a paddle.
Speaker 2: It comes out next year. It's all about your journey
Speaker 2: and your experiences on set. What is it like sending
Speaker 2: yourself back, like your own little time machine, back to
Speaker 2: certain days on set in order to write the book.
Speaker 4: It's been a whirl when it's been a lot of work.
Speaker 4: I think I've interviewed like twenty five something like that people, everybody,
Speaker 4: And what I found out is that actors can't remember
Speaker 4: everybody else can. I mean the directory, stories, the pas,
Speaker 4: I mean casting everybody. Writers, The writers remember everything.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 4: It's just it was just really interesting to call everybody
Speaker 4: up and do these zooms and just you know, talk
Speaker 4: about the old days and how much fun we had. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you guys, we had so much fun every week every
Speaker 4: weekend because we were on the water, right, we would
Speaker 4: as a group and this isn't just you know, the
Speaker 4: five of us. We would all get together whoever was guest, starring, crew, everybody,
Speaker 4: and we would jump on all the boats that anybody
Speaker 4: had a boat, Jetskin's. We would congregate this place called
Speaker 4: Dockside on the water. We would load up beer, hot dog,
Speaker 4: you know, burghers, everything and we go out to this
Speaker 4: island called mason Boro Island and we would just party
Speaker 4: out all day. On the water and we did that
Speaker 4: like almost every single weekend. Man, I had been trying
Speaker 4: to recreate that experience for the last twenty five years
Speaker 4: and I have not been do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there is the it's the camaraderie. That's the thing.
Speaker 1: Is we're going through the same journey, obviously, and so
Speaker 1: where each of us are remembering little parts of it,
Speaker 1: but all of us remember the fun. That's all it
Speaker 1: is is that vibe, the fun, the feeling of family
Speaker 1: and just you know, you're going through the same thing
Speaker 1: with people that you love, and it's that's the thing
Speaker 1: that you remember the most. And you're right, you do.
Speaker 1: You try to chase that because it's just it's magical,
Speaker 1: it really is.
Speaker 2: Well, it's already already been all over the press that
Speaker 2: in the book you talk about a script that was
Speaker 2: written for a Jack and Doug spinoff. And so for
Speaker 2: those listeners who don't know, Jack ends up with a
Speaker 2: guy named Doug Witter and together they will raise Jen's
Speaker 2: daughter Amy. So one tell us what the script is like,
Speaker 2: and two tell us who we beat up? Since it
Speaker 2: didn't happen, who.
Speaker 4: We beat up? Who you beat up? Is the head
Speaker 4: of Programm Against Sony that's who. That's where it's stopping. Unfortunately. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's a great script. I mean, the easiest way to
Speaker 4: say it is, it's the Fosters with two dudes, and
Speaker 4: you've got the aesthetic of you know, Cape site, and
Speaker 4: you can bring in all the main characters for cameos.
Speaker 4: But unfortunately Sony wants the main characters in it all
Speaker 4: the time. That's that's right. So apparently I don't know Jack,
Speaker 4: Doug and a few other derecis from michell on enough
Speaker 4: to do a spin off, which is to me, is
Speaker 4: crazy odd because Sony is sitting on the most valuable
Speaker 4: ip out there and doing nothing with it. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's unfortunate. So I'm hoping, you know, there'll be
Speaker 4: enough pushback where the powers that be will go. I
Speaker 4: think we take a second look at this, because I
Speaker 4: think it'd be really fun. I would certainly do it.
Speaker 4: I would love to, you know, raise a bunch of
Speaker 4: rug rats and we have Jen's kid too, and we
Speaker 4: raise and have a little house like Joey's or something
Speaker 4: on the great Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that this business doesn't know what it is anymore,
Speaker 1: and so everybody, no one will pull the trigger on anything.
Speaker 1: Everybody's too scared to do anything unless it's a four
Speaker 1: million dollar Marvel movie, which they know they'll probably make
Speaker 1: their money back. You're not gonna nobody's doing anything anymore.
Speaker 4: My question is why are they pulling the trigger on
Speaker 4: all these spin offs of what No? Two? One? Oh?
Speaker 4: And somebody Who is another show that's doing not a spinoff,
Speaker 4: but it's another big show that's doing one. Now they
Speaker 4: are doing the bringing back they watch again, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: watching that, especially in like four K.
Speaker 2: Finally, I am sure between the book and the reunion event,
Speaker 2: you have been thinking a lot about Dawson's Creek. If
Speaker 2: you could go back in time and tell yourself something
Speaker 2: then twenty five years later, what would it be.
Speaker 4: Relax and enjoy, Enjoy the moment. Always enjoy the moment.
Speaker 4: Try and be in the moment all the time. You know,
Speaker 4: back then, I was always looking ahead and behind and
Speaker 4: everywhere else I could, just to make sure that I
Speaker 4: didn't make a fool myself or that. But I could,
Speaker 4: and now I realize it's staying in the present moment
Speaker 4: is the best absolute hm.
Speaker 2: Man, Yep, we feel very much the same.
Speaker 1: Run. We can't say what everybody says, my youth is
Speaker 1: wasted on the young. You just you don't have the
Speaker 1: wisdom yet.
Speaker 2: So yeah, thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 2: It was a pleasure to talk to you. I can't
Speaker 2: wait to read the book right on.
Speaker 4: Guys, thanks for having me appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you here. You know, it's always amazing to talk
Speaker 1: to other actors, but so rare to meet one that
Speaker 1: really does have a solid piece of television history that
Speaker 1: will never go away. I mean, again, as being a
Speaker 1: television junkie, that's something to be on a list of
Speaker 1: first of whatever. Like I read a really random article
Speaker 1: yesterday where an episode of Leave It to Beaver they
Speaker 1: had to keep shooting and reshooting, and the network kept
Speaker 1: pulling it because they showed the first toilet ever because
Speaker 1: no one was ever supposed to use.
Speaker 2: A bathroom an offensive toilet it was.
Speaker 1: So they had to reshoot it where you could just
Speaker 1: see the top of the tank of the toilet. You
Speaker 1: couldn't actually, So it's like any any time you hit
Speaker 1: one of those milestones. So you know, first interracial kiss
Speaker 1: huge star Trek, the first gay kiss ever on Cara.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's got a piece of television history forever?
Speaker 5: Are there any of those left there?
Speaker 3: Anything that's not been on television that still will be?
Speaker 1: Who knows? I mean there was like because remember like
Speaker 1: the old school shows the husband and wife never shared
Speaker 1: a band.
Speaker 2: I mean, what about the first prime network TV thrupple.
Speaker 5: There you go, that's been done.
Speaker 1: Though, you know what, you know it'll be you know
Speaker 1: how disgusting we're becoming. It's going to become the first
Speaker 1: actual death on TV. Yeah, it'll be something like that,
Speaker 1: Like we're really going to film it. It'll be something
Speaker 1: horrible because all the good stuff is basically all the
Speaker 1: things that show progress in some way are pretty much
Speaker 1: I think you're right, they're pretty much gone.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 2: A really interesting, really smart idea too, for him to
Speaker 2: write a book, you know, like every everyone's starting a podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 2: how many people are writing books?
Speaker 5: Yeah, we should do this podcast.
Speaker 3: Sounds like he's going about it the right way to
Speaker 3: interviewing other people, like as opposed to just what do
Speaker 3: I remember, let me just talk about myself. He's like
Speaker 3: really trying to get the story from everybody else.
Speaker 5: I think that's really smart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean he took the idea of a
Speaker 2: podcast and said, let's put it in words, you know, like,
Speaker 2: let's it's.
Speaker 1: Like a written podcast. Why I didn't know that was
Speaker 1: a thing, Like they made a book out of that. Amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you all for listening to this episode of Pod
Speaker 2: Meets World as all. You can follow us on Instagram
Speaker 2: pod Meets World Show. You can send us your emails
Speaker 2: pod meets World Show at gmail dot com. And we've
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Speaker 1: I don't want to merch.
Speaker 2: For your merch to me, merchie.
Speaker 5: Merchie, merch rchie. I don't know is that a good thing.
Speaker 3: We're gonna have to find out.
Speaker 2: Pod Meets Worldshow dot com writer send us out.
Speaker 5: We love you all, pod dismissed.
Speaker 3: Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast producer hosted by
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