1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of My 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. It was probably one of the smartest marketing 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: deals I ever did, because for ten thousand dollars, we 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: were on every coffee cup in the hand. I heard 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: the publisher of the New York Times at that moment 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: was screaming about the Internet and what are we gonna 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: do with it? And somebody pointed out he was holding 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: a sidewalk dot Com coffee telephoni hand. I'm Bob Pittman, 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to Math and Magic. On each episode, I 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: chat with someone I truly admire to explore their stories 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: from the frontiers and marketing. I've got Gail Troupe Woman 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: here with me. Gail is the CMO of My Heart. 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: So we know each other very well and have about 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: to be better and we've gone through some you know, 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: trials and tribulations and battles and were in a foxholes 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: and all of that. But on our show we talk 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: about math and magic. This is about people who are 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: mathematicians or magicians. Gail is one of those magicians. She's 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: comfortable with math and she does know what two plus 20 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: two is, can rock excel when needed. But we always 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: start our episodes with a feature we called you in 22 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: sixty seconds, will jump in if you don't mind. Do 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: you prefer pancakes or waffles? I wish either, but keto 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: these days, so neither Rhode Island or New York Ocean 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: Stayed all the Way Samantha or Darren Stevens of The Witch, 26 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: of course, Darren Stevens, who oddly influenced my life and 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: decision to become a copywriter at an early age. Sunrise 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: or sunsets. Sunsets definitely sleep in East Coast or West Coast. Lately, 29 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm kind of buy everything, so hard to choose, but 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: so pick one. I guess at the moment. L a 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: lightning or thunder thunder power sound all the way? Sweet 32 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: are salty? Salty and currency Madonna or Share I've learned 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: in life you never choose between Diva's so I love 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: them both. We'll put him out a tie. It's about 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: to get harder here. Secret talent want. I think my 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: talent would be curating people. Childhood hero Jim Henson Muppets 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: all in. First job is He's kosher catering historical idol 38 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Gloria Steinem Worst fashion trend you've participated in the bi 39 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: level haircut with half a shaved head in the eighties 40 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: has to be my biggest mistake. What's your favorite ice 41 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: cream flavor? Pistachio? And our final question in the Lightning 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: Realm so appropriate for us best live concert r E M. 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,119 Speaker 1: A bunch of years ago, we were supposed to see 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: them in Seattle and my highly responsible wife oddly lost 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: the tickets and I tortured her every time I heard 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: an r EM song for several years. So we could 47 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: have seen them, but we didn't. And so years later 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: she surprised me with front row center seats at an 49 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: r M show in Chicago and it was just magic 50 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: and Michael Stipe after every song handed me the lyrics 51 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: and it was just a crazy, fun, unexpected magic knight 52 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: of music. That is magic. So tell me, and tell 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: all of us, how on earth someone from Rhode Island 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: you say that with disdain and that's I'm from Mississippi. 55 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: There's no thing. We're all small steaks, steaks otherwise known 56 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: as crime Town. Yeah right, tell us a little bit 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: about how you got your mojo with marketing. I mean, 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: how did you decide I'm a marketer? And when did 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: you decide that's my calling in life. Fascinating. I'm not 60 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: sure I ever decided to be a marketer. Most of 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: my career, you know, I always refer to it as 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: effective stumbling. I've always sort of followed passions and ideas 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: and things that make sense without overthinking them. I'm not 64 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: a big planner, and you know, in ten years I 65 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: must get to hear and these are the steps that 66 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: lead me there. Sometimes I've answered that question with the 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: inspiration being Bewitched being my favorite show as a kid, 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: and I was like, Wow, these guys get paid to 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: sit around and make up crazy ideas and then go 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: pitch them to people. And no matter what job I've had, 71 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: and I've been on pretty much every side of the 72 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: marketing table, I an agency, media company, creative in every job, 73 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: I've realized, like, you kind of follow great people and 74 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: where your passion seems to be, and you'll find your 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: way to adding some value being of use. And somehow 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: that always kept pulling me back in and around content 77 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: and marketing. So when did you say I'm a marketer? 78 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: I mean, there has to be a moment in your 79 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: career when you say, okay, this is that I'm a marketer. 80 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: It's funny. I started a big ad agency wanting to 81 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: be a copywriter, right my bewitched vision of like these 82 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: great offices and you know, sitting around with their feet 83 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: up in a cocktail and making up sentences and you 84 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: have a beer here today I do. It's a it's 85 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: a bourbon. Actually, yeah. Friendly. So I took a job 86 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: at a big agency. First place they put me was 87 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: in PR instead of creative, and they said, oh, will 88 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: move you around. Every month or two, we'll move you 89 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: to a new area. You'll find the right group, they'll 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 1: promote you, and you'll be a copywriter. And in thirty 91 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: days I got promoted before I have removed and I 92 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: became a PR person. And you know, I still look 93 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: back at the early years and PR and go. Now 94 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: we call it earned media, but when you have to 95 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: earn it, you really learned the difference quickly between a 96 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: good idea or a good pitch and a bad pitch. 97 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: When you have to get on the phone and actually 98 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: talk to another human and try to pitch them an 99 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: idea cold, which was a lot of what PR was 100 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: back in the day, you really quickly learned if you 101 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: were wasting people's time, if you had something worth hearing 102 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: and how to get to it in a minute. I 103 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: still look back at all those PR years of really 104 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: earning the ideas and earning the press and the coverage 105 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: is still a lot of what we have to do 106 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: as marketers today. But I don't think I really became 107 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: a marketer, would declare myself one, until I got to Microsoft, 108 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: and then I started marketing early Internet properties at Microsoft, 109 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, Sidewalk, car Point, Expedia, Home Advisor, and then 110 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I'm doing this thing 111 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: called marketing on this thing called the Internet that no 112 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: one's ever done before. And it was just a fun, 113 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: giant playground of new and learning. So all those lessons 114 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: you learned slugging it out trying to get free media PR, 115 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: what did you apply when you went to Microsoft? You know, 116 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: you were in the wild wild West. At that moment, 117 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: people sort of forget that nobody believed they needed to 118 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: be on the Internet. The big sales pitch was not 119 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: how are you gonna be on the internet? Shot you 120 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: need to be on the Internet. I'm not sure I 121 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: need to be on the Internet. It's hard to imagine now, 122 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: but that was the challenge, right, like getting marketers to 123 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: believe the Internet mattered way back when was job one, 124 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: back in the early AD days. So what did you 125 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: bring to it from your from the PR days? You 126 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: learned the idea of the possible. Right, anything was possible, 127 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 1: and Microsoft was sort of a place to like test 128 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: that exponentially. Right, whatever it was, you could see it, 129 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: there was a way to find somebody who could connect 130 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: you to it, someone who knew someone. There was a 131 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: way to pitch it. There was a way to get 132 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: somebody to write something about a product. And it might 133 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: take ten tries to find a pitch that worked, but 134 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: when you did, it was possible. One of my favorite 135 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: stories about early Microsoft marketing was we were launching the 136 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: city guide called Sidewalk and Arc was one of our 137 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: first markets, and we were trying to be of the 138 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: city relevant local but we had like ten ten tiny 139 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: marketing budgets, so we weren't going to go by giant 140 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: ads or do TV. And so we're like, what's iconic 141 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: to New York And at the time it was those 142 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: coffee cups and delis. It's pre Starbucks, right, there were 143 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: coffee cups with the Greek you know, with the urn, 144 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: those coffee cups, were like, you know what if we 145 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: could get on those coffee cups. And so we found 146 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: the dude who distributes the coffee cups and he's in 147 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: like a warehouse in Queens and we said, what would 148 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: it cost, will pay to print the cups. We just 149 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: want to put sidewalk dot Com on them. And again, 150 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: none of these things have been done before. It sounds 151 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: normal now, and he was like, what do you mean 152 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: you're gonna print the cops about We negotiated with the 153 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: dude and it turned out he wanted ten thousand dollars 154 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: in cash and for a week we would own every 155 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: coffee cup. If we gave him ten thousand dollars in cash, 156 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: we'd print them and it would say sidewalk dot com 157 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: instead of the Urn. And it was probably one of 158 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: the smartest marketing deals I ever did, because for ten 159 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: thousand dollars we were on every coffee cup in the hand. 160 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: I heard the publisher of the New York Times at 161 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: that moment was screaming about the Internet and what are 162 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: we going to do with it? And somebody pointed out 163 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: he was holding a sidewalk dot com coffee in his 164 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: sand Do you have one of those you know, I 165 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: do somewhere in a box, somewhere in a garage. So 166 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: at Microsoft it was the wild wild West. Now was 167 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: at a o L at the time. We were sort 168 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: of the Facebook Google at the moment, and it was 169 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: sort of the battle of the giants at the moment. 170 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: What did you learn from that experience that you think 171 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: people missed today? I think it goes to the premise 172 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: of the show, right, where's the balance between math and magic? Right? 173 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: Too much of one and you're gonna do some crazy 174 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: idea that won't catch and might win an award, but 175 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: it isn't going to move a lot of product. I 176 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: remember the days when I started running advertising at Microsoft, 177 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: and the creative presentation would be three hours and the 178 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: media people would be lucky to get fifteen minutes. At 179 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: the end when we ran over, it might get rescheduled. 180 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: And then slowly through this last decade, the media people 181 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: would start and they'd get three hours and the creatives 182 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: would be lucky to get fifteen or twenty minutes to 183 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: present the entire campaign idea that was going to go 184 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: into the math. Microsoft was such an engineering, math driven culture, 185 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: and I tend to be more of an idea first 186 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: creative person and then let's look at the math and 187 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: support it and learn quickly. So learning to balance the two. 188 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: The early Internet was all about that, Oh my god, 189 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: we have data right now, we're running ads or people 190 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: going to sidewalk dot com. Are they not? It was 191 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: traffic up exponentially the week we put the coffee cups 192 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: in market. It was if it wasn't, we would know. 193 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: And we've never had that real time access to data. 194 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: I think at some point in recent years probably the 195 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: pendulum is swung too far back and we're looking at 196 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: math without context for whether those numbers really mean things. 197 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: Are they real people or they boughts or clicks that 198 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: go nowhere? Are they humans who are embracing your message 199 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: and buying your products? So if you look at it today, 200 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: we do business with a lot of great marketers. The 201 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: thrill of our job as we actually get to stick 202 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: our nose and everybody else's mark eating business. Yeah, it 203 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: never gets boring talking about math and magic, talking about 204 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: these early lessons, What fundamental do you think is missing? 205 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Who is the arbiter of the math and the magic? Right? 206 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: There's so few people you have a great sense of both. 207 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: Most people tend to excel in one and are a 208 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: little more deficient in the other. But how do you 209 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: balance the two, and how do you find that rare 210 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: unicorn who can balance the math and the magic. I'm 211 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: also a huge believer in teams. Teams who can push 212 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: each other and do a little Batman Robin and you know, 213 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: can actually balance math and magic. I don't think most 214 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: management structures are set up for teams very well. But 215 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: I think that if we're going to find that good balance, 216 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: we're going to have to get better at teamwork and collaboration. 217 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: So let me jump back a little bit. When you 218 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: were starting out. There's a story about you and some diamonds, 219 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: and you tell us the story my very very very 220 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: first job before I got promoted in PR, they put 221 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: me answering phones and I'm at a giant at agency 222 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: Ware that had the of Beer's business. You know, they 223 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: are the main people who created the diamond Is Forever line. 224 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: I was sitting there and I'm making like, I don't know, 225 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: like thirteen thousand dollars a year and wondering if I 226 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: should ask my parents for money to pay my phone 227 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: bill again. And and there are these crazy power women 228 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: and they were brilliant, and they lived in a world 229 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: I've never even seen. Right. They were like people who 230 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: could pick up the phone and change the cover of 231 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: Vogue tomorrow. They were like you out there the desk, 232 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: you here, here, you you, yeah, you take this, take 233 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: this piece of jewelry. And they throw like some necklace 234 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: at me and they'd go, this needs to get over 235 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: to Harper's in an hour and ensure it for three 236 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: million dollars, and I'd be like afraid to touch it. 237 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: I am like Lena dunhaman girls, and I'm living in 238 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: designing women in the eighties, full of shoulder pads and diamonds, 239 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: and it was entertaining and fascinating. And when you watched 240 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: what they really did and how power got brokered, it 241 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: was unbelievable. Learning that I probably only sat there for 242 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: about two we before they realized I wasn't the the 243 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: bearest person. But yeah, I got di'mon safely to Harper's. 244 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I never lost anything worth millions of dollars. 245 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: So so let's go back to Rhode Island, going even 246 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: further back. What is it in your nature nurture? What 247 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: is it in you that has made you this great marketer. 248 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: I was an adopted only child growing up in suburban 249 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: Rhode Island. You know, they're sort of pros and cons 250 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: of that, right, I got lots of attention and time 251 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: with adults pretty early on I was a little kid. 252 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: I learned the power of conversation, the power of having 253 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: something to say, sitting at the table with grown ups, 254 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: being able to banter and listen. And you know, most 255 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: of my jobs here at my heart, I spend a 256 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: good amount of my life, you know, pitching ideas. So 257 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: I learned to listen and understand where people were at 258 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: their priorities, their mood, their nuances, and find my way 259 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: into those adult conversations. And that's what we're all doing. 260 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: Creating the ideas sometimes times is easier than pitching and 261 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: selling and finding your way into the right conversation with 262 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: the right people at the right moment where something actually 263 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: will land. So you're known here as a great writer. 264 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: Were you always a great writer? Yeah? I think I've 265 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: always probably instinctively been drawn to words. Um horrific artist. 266 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: I can't draw at all. Um my math is is okay, 267 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: but words always fascinated me. And you know, like I said, conversation. 268 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: I grew up in a family of people who talked, 269 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: and that's how things were communicated. It was all out 270 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: in the open, good or bad. It was always said. 271 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: It's funny I married someone who grew up in a 272 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: family where it was never said, and you had to infer. So, 273 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, I've always seen words as the way to accomplish, 274 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: the way to get hurt, the way to relate to people, 275 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: the way to get what you wanted in life. And 276 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: I think great writing comes from great conversation. Moral math 277 00:13:54,360 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: and magic. Right after this quick break, welcome back to 278 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: math and Magic. We're here with Gail Troberman. So we're 279 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: back to the present. Yes, you talk a lot about culture, brands, 280 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: products and culture. Give us a little your view on 281 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: that and enlighten us. You know, there's a product and 282 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: that's the thing, and it does whatever it does, it 283 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: has a function, and then there's brands, and brands are 284 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: things you have emotional attachments to. Why am I drinking 285 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: this bourbon and not another one? You know, you like 286 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: to say rationally that I like it because it's the 287 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: taste and it's you know, made this way and filtered 288 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: this way and age this way. But the reality is 289 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: I love the packaging, you know, I'm drawn to the 290 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: idea behind this brand. It feels right to me. Branding 291 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: done well is when a brand really knows who they are. 292 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: And Microsoft I had so many great opportunities to inherit 293 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: insanely powerful brands right like Windows. The world's businesses run 294 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: on a thing called windows or office and the role 295 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: they play in the world in society, it's insane, right, 296 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: And then you know you have to go market at 297 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: and there's just certain things that might be the coolest, 298 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: most kick ass crazy idea ever. But Windows shouldn't do it. 299 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: I remember once seeing one of the global teams. You 300 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: never quite knew what would happen when you gave the 301 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: briefs and the money out around the world. And in 302 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: one country we were launching Windows seven at the time, 303 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: and it was just such a bad idea somebody had 304 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: decided to execute for a brand with the gravitas of Windows. 305 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: It was the it was the Windows seven whopper, and 306 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: it was seven patties, and it made national news here 307 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: in the States because it was just such an insanely 308 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: wrong idea for a brand like Windows. But there were 309 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: brands like Xbox or being that could do crazy stunts 310 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: and things because they were new brands or they were 311 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: grounded in entertainment and fun. And I think it's like humans. 312 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: You know, there's places where I can show up and 313 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, Gaale belongs and I'm comfortable and I'm going 314 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: to have a great time. And then there's places where 315 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: I might get invited, but maybe I shouldn't be there, 316 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: or if from there, maybe I should adapt my behavior 317 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: to the norms and modes of this place. And so 318 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: building a great brand means being honest about who you are, 319 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: getting mad and then finding the partners. We say at 320 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: all the time at my heart, right, we have these 321 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: shows with these great friendships and relationships with millions and 322 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: millions of consumers. A brand can pop in and be 323 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: a guest, but they can't really take over that relationship. 324 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: And some brands fit naturally, and some maybe it's a 325 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: little more awkward when they show up in a studio 326 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: or on air live, and maybe they're better in a 327 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: rehearsed or recorded setting. Going to your point about knowing 328 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: who you are, Graydon Carter did a fantastic job editing 329 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. He had this sort of uncanny ability to 330 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: say that belongs in Vanity Fair and that doesn't. And 331 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: if you said why, I looked at I can't understand why, 332 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: but he's right. It sort of makes Vanity Fair feel 333 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: like Vanity is a great keeper of the vision. Who 334 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: is the keeper of the vision for these brands and 335 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: who should it be to sort of say it's staying 336 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: appropriate for the culture that you're not doing that when 337 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: those seven whopper Yeah, exactly. It's a really good question 338 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of how the marketing ecosystem 339 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: has changed. You know, if you look back, a diamond 340 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: is forever right two Beers, you know that tagline. I 341 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: actually had the joyous task one day of taking the 342 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: woman who wrote it to the hair salon. She was 343 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: ninety at the time. And that line endured for so 344 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: long because there were keepers of the line right. There 345 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: was an agency that had been on that business for decades. 346 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: There were people who had worked on that business for decades. 347 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: There were clients who had been at Two Beers for 348 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: decades and and had learned it, and it had been 349 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: passed down like a legacy to the next generation of 350 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: keepers of today's ecosystem, jobs are much more transient and 351 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: marketing we all bounce around much faster. Agency relationships are 352 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: not the marriages they used to be. They're more kind 353 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: of flirtations and flings, and you know, without that, it's 354 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: very easy to look away, get distracted and start trying 355 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: to build an identity, be based on who you want 356 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: to be and maybe not as grounded in the truth 357 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: of who you are. I've had the luxury of working 358 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: with some of the greatest creatives in the industry, and 359 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: and one of the things that I think external agencies 360 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: bring that clients sometimes are going to have a harder 361 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: time is truth. A great agency will show up and 362 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: tell you the things you don't want to hear, and 363 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: keep you honest to who you are and how you 364 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: can show up in the world. All the best relationships 365 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: at Microsoft that we had, they were highly collaborative and 366 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: highly contentious, but the trust and love and respect was 367 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: always there for what we each had to get done. Well. 368 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: Many of my closest friends are still from those errors 369 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: of screaming at each other at midnight about taglines or 370 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: you and I agree on this, and I don't think 371 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: everybody does speak the truth, And no matter how tough 372 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: it is, we'll have a fight we'll have an argument, 373 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: but we're in search of winning, not in search of you. 374 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Give me a little of something you don't think right now, 375 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: give you a little something I think it's not right, 376 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: and we'll wind up with a crappy That is true 377 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: of the things we fight about. It is never that 378 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: get it right. I don't need to be right right. 379 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: So in an organization, big organization, we're twelve thousand people. 380 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: You've worked in Microsoft was much larger than that. I've 381 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: worked in bigger ones and smaller ones. How does an 382 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: organization build that capability to let someone say that's not us, No, 383 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: not a whopper. So much comes I think from leadership 384 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: and culture. Microsoft just spent sixteen years there, and I 385 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: got there early, early on in my career, so I 386 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: look at that as where I really grew up as 387 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: a marketer. There were good years and bad years. There 388 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: were great projects, there were massive failures. But the one 389 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: thing about that culture that was always true was there 390 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: was a huge appetite for truth and honesty. And I 391 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: remember the first email I ever got from Bill Gates 392 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: when we launched Sidewalk, and we're like, oh my god, 393 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: look at the numbers. Week one Seattle sidewalk, you know, 394 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: and he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. What 395 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: isn't working? And it was like this light bulb moment 396 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: for me. And I think culture has to be set 397 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: by leaders in an organization. And if you see the 398 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: people above you speaking truth, accepting blame, being accountable, and 399 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: they create a culture where there's not punishment or penalty 400 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: for being wrong, there's embracing and learning fast and rewarding 401 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: those behaviors. That was definitely the culture of Bill and 402 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: Steve and the early Microsoft team. So that's definitely my mode. 403 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: I hope I instill that in others. It's not always easy. 404 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: It's hard for all of us as humans to admit 405 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: when we're wrong and take accountability and blame. But I 406 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 1: do think that tends to be on brand for me. 407 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: What advice would you have for someone who's in an 408 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: organization and wants to speak the truth, wants to say 409 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: they made a mistake, but they know the organization is 410 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: going to kill them reject for it. How should they 411 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: handle it in that organization? Sort Of, all the best 412 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: moves in my career, and probably where I've accomplished the 413 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: best work has always been when I'm working with or 414 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: four people. I really try. So my first piece of 415 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 1: advice to people would be find the person that you 416 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: do trust and ask them for advice or tell them 417 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: what's going on and see if they can't help you. 418 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: Maybe if your manager isn't that person. Having mentors and 419 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: sort of trusted advisors or you know, confidants, it's so 420 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: important tell them, get advice and try to find your way, 421 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: and if that's not where you're working, go find another job. 422 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: There's a million of them, you know. As I talked 423 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: to and I mentor young people in the industry, I 424 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: thought it was bad when I was doing my crappy 425 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: job and I was hating my life messengering diamonds around, 426 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: going what have I done? Why did I do all 427 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: this work in college to do this? And I go 428 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: out and have a bourbon with my friends and laugh 429 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: about it and get up and do it again. Now, 430 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: the pressure on people in the workforce and your first 431 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: jobs is instead of going out and admitting that you've 432 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: got a crappy entry level job and you're gonna learn 433 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: your way through it and laugh about it and move on, 434 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: you have to go instagram your great job and all 435 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: the amazing things that are happening and put on this 436 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: other face of success when you really haven't found it yet. 437 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: So you have a great idea in a company we 438 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: talk about internally that you know, what really makes the 439 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: difference here is an epiphany or an insight. The rest 440 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: of it's just we're making the trains run. But what 441 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: really makes the company great and gives us a win 442 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: is I got it. Everybody's got one of those. I 443 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: don't care who they are in this company. One day 444 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: they wake up and go, I've got it. How do 445 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: you take that idea and share it with someone in 446 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: a way that can be heard and they can make 447 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: a difference. It's going to really vary, depending probably on 448 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: the company, the culture, the kind of position you're in. 449 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: But my experience, and you know, one of the luxuries 450 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: of this job is right, we get to work with 451 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the great cmos and CEOs and industry 452 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: after industry, medium business, giant, corporation. I'm sure if whatever 453 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: person in this company had their epiphany moment and sent 454 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: you an email, I suspect nothing bad would come of 455 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: that for someone. Whether your idea gets dismissed or embraced, 456 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: or they agree, or they don't agree. I think every 457 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: great leader would love a person in the company with 458 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 1: the guts to stand up and say, hey, I had 459 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: a great idea. Shoot an email over and I don't 460 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: think it'll hurt you. I think it will only get 461 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: you noticed. Should they blast it out or should they 462 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: tell only their supervisor? Oh, it definitely depends on the 463 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: culture in a company. But I'd say, if you really 464 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: think you have a great idea, go up a level 465 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: or two, or four or five. And I think a 466 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of times people in the C suite are actually 467 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: a little more removed from new ideas and thinking, and 468 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: they're working with that sort of same leadership team all 469 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: the time. So I take the leap. I don't think 470 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: anyone's ever gotten fired for one email with a good idea. 471 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: Just make sure it's a good idea and you've done 472 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: your homework on it. We've talked a little bit about 473 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: the women and the advertising business earlier in your career. 474 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: Are very powerful women. What powerful woman did you see 475 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: that maybe was your role model or set a tone 476 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: that today you're trying to emulate for all the women 477 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: who look up to you and say that's my role model. 478 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: I've had the luxury, you know. And I, as a woman, 479 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, of my increasing years to have worked for 480 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: a lot of badass women in my in my day, Um, 481 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: I've actually been really fortunate. You know. At Microsoft, I 482 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: worked for a couple of really astounding women. But there's 483 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: one person. There's really only one person I think in 484 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: my career that I really called a mentor. And we 485 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: worked together very briefly at Microsoft, and she was sort 486 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: of running the New York sidewalk business at the time. 487 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: Her name was Chella Irvine, and she's just just genius. 488 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: I was such a creative person and she was just 489 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: such Everything to her was so logical and concise and planned. 490 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: And she was that person through my career who was 491 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: always able to look me in the eye and be 492 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: I took a job once and I don't think she 493 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: approved very much of the decision. I already made it, 494 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: and she just said to me, you know, that sounds 495 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: meaty and prestigious, and you know it sounded good on paper. 496 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: It was brutal. But my advice to people as always 497 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: find that person who thinks like you. Don't. It's really 498 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: easy to surround yourself with people who have skills like you, 499 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: who have your same sense of humor, who see the 500 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: world the way you do, and they're part of your tribe. 501 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: And that's easy. The people who make you better are 502 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: the people who are just so different and you look 503 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: at them and you go wow, I never in a 504 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: million years would have thought that or said that. And 505 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: if you collaborate with them, you really learn. And and and 506 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: she challenged me through my career. Quite. I want to 507 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: give you a compliment because I work with you a lot, 508 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: is that you do pick up things from people and 509 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: I see you somebody has a great idea and you go, wow, 510 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: got it? Yeah, exactly, it's the idea I can't touch it. Yeah, 511 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: if the ideas have to all come from me, were 512 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: in trouble. It's the ability to spot them that makes 513 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: great marketers. It's a great talent. So you went to 514 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: this job that turned out not to be so media 515 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: and wonderful. What sort of the worst failure? That miserable moment? 516 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: And how did you get out of it? Miserable days? 517 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: And microsoft everything felt just like life or death. It's 518 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: a beautiful intensity around that you would spend months and 519 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: months and months on, you know, an idea or a 520 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: camp pine or strategy. At one point, we had been 521 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: working for two years, two whole years, trying to convince 522 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: the leadership at the moment in Microsoft Corporation that we 523 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: needed to change the logo. It was the entire word 524 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: Microsoft with that little niche in the M, and we 525 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: were in a mobile error and it didn't fit. Somebody 526 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: had just decided once to cut the M off and 527 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: that was becoming what Microsoft around the world was as 528 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: a brand. And we're like, we need a mark, and 529 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: then we need an identity system, and we need to 530 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: rethink visually who we are as a brand in this 531 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: visual error. The first year, we just came in with 532 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: the idea and we got thrown out of Steve Palmer's office. 533 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: The next year, we did all the research, we did 534 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: the brand identity company. We did. It was probably eighteen 535 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: months of like really crazy amount of work, and we 536 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: went in and the same thing. He kind of threw 537 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: me out of his office and he was like, I'm 538 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: not changing every sign and every business card, and and 539 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: it just seemed like this enormous like undertaking. It's funny 540 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: because part of the end of that story is a 541 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: little bit of how I landed here with you was 542 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: you were like, I think I'm gonna change then him 543 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: of the company, and I was like, that's a little odd. 544 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: I heart media. I don't know, and we wrestled through 545 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: the pros and cons and then you said something like yeah, 546 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: we're gonna do it, and we're gonna do it in 547 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: like six weeks. You want to help. Changing everything felt impossible, 548 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: and yet when you broke it down, it was a 549 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: series of It might have been a hundred page spreadsheet, 550 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: but you were like, there's just a series of places 551 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: the brand appears, what does it cost? Do it, don't 552 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: do it? Change it, pain over it. But the key 553 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: learning for me there is continuing to see the possibility 554 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: and continuing to fight even when you lose, because that 555 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: still was the right idea and eventually it wasn't me. 556 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: Someone else got the leadership of the company to make 557 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: the right decision to make that change. So you know 558 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna win, someone lose some but the right idea 559 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: and the right moment is the key. You work through 560 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: some ad agencies. You worked at Microsoft, you worked around that. 561 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: There's always somebody somewhere in your career that just wants 562 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: to get you, and you're not being paranoid. They really 563 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: do want to get it. It does happen. Did you 564 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: ever have one of those? And how did you handle it? 565 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: I have had them. Sometimes I've handled it well. Sometimes 566 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 1: I haven't. You know. I always said, if I were 567 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: going to write a business book, the topic I would 568 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: cover is misread intentions and the thing I've learned about 569 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: myself and the thing I've probably armed my assassins with 570 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: on my not best days, and sometimes I've restrained myself 571 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: and been more methodical about how to manage my interactions 572 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: with the people who they just don't get. You. You know, 573 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: we had some horrific offsite once on some team that 574 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: just wasn't jelling. And I'll tell you it was the 575 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: smartest group of humans I've ever worked with by far. 576 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: Everyone on that team was just a genius, but we 577 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: just didn't collaborate well. We all saw things from these 578 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: different perspectives, and we were in functional areas which exacerbated 579 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: our different way of thinking creative media research PR. And 580 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: we had some offsite. And my boss at the time, 581 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: who I am still very good friends have basically said 582 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to in the next two days at this 583 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: lodge up in the Northwest. You're either going to work 584 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: your ship out or I'm going to fire all of you. 585 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: Here's your moderator go crazy. And it was brutal, and 586 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: we had to really be honest with each other about 587 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: how I thought about you, where my perceptions came from. 588 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: And oh my god, hearing people who really disliked you, 589 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: like deep rooted hate sometimes for you, who you've been 590 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: working with for years, and you knew you didn't groove, 591 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: but you were like wow. There were tears and there 592 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: was yelling, and it was really a pivotal thing that 593 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: I learned that the biggest mistake people tend to make 594 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: about me in my career is I think fast. I 595 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: talk fast. I oh that idea, that idea. I'm not 596 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: always good at explaining how I got there or why 597 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: I feel that way. I'm pretty good at pivoting when 598 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: somebody convinces me otherwise, like no, wait, you're right, that's 599 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: a different data point, a different way of seeing it, 600 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: and okay, let's do that. You know, I'm not attached 601 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: to ideas, But every time I have one of those 602 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: assassins who's coming at me, they tend not to understand 603 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: what drives me or my intentions and they're misreading them. 604 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: Is a needing to be right or trample over, and 605 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: sometimes you just have to go back into their office 606 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: and remind each other that we're motivated in different ways, 607 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: but it's not personal, it's work and share bourbon. Yes, 608 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: So the world has changed a lot since you started 609 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: carrying a bag of diamonds around social Now we've still 610 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: got television, it's changed somewhat. We've got radio, but instead 611 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: of being just broadcast, it's over all these platforms. So 612 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: we've got podcast today, prints still here. How do you 613 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: make it all work today? How do you think about 614 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: that media mixed in the digital error. I think we've 615 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: all become so enamored of the new neck shiny and 616 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: I love being on the leading edge. I love trying 617 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: things first. And part of why we go into marketing 618 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: is not to do the same thing over and over, 619 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: but to learn. So testing and learning in these new 620 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: spaces as they come up, and learning this snap and 621 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: pin in post and tweet and whatever the next flavor 622 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: of things is is important. But one of the things, 623 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: and I learned it in Microsoft. I learned the power 624 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: of broadcast media, which I started in digital, and I 625 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: really learned the power of scale. That's something I'm seeing 626 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: with clients here at my heart over and over again, 627 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: is the power of radio to each night out of 628 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: ten Americans is not something to be overlooked. And I 629 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: think sometimes are human biases are really getting the way 630 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: of our ability to honestly balance math and magic. And 631 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: I say it to clients pretty much every day, right, 632 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: like you need to really look at the math and 633 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: then decide which magic fits into that math. I think 634 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: it's a little less matching luggage campaigns than we've seen before. 635 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: One thing we've learned from the digital error as far 636 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: as like planning across silos, is you really do in 637 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: the clutter that's out there today. You really do need 638 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: to have a voice in a connection with your consumer 639 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: all the time. Right. It used to be you could 640 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: do a campaign for three months at big weight and 641 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: go away for a while and then wait a few 642 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: months and come back. I do think brands have to 643 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: have a more real time, every day a touch point 644 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: with their consumers. So finding the places where you can 645 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: afford to do that and then finding things worth saying 646 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: every day. That to me is a little bit of 647 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: the magic of today's marketing landscape, and then from a 648 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: math standpoint, you know, I think it's really being honest 649 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: with yourself about the thing you might love and it's 650 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: really cool and sexy and maybe it'll win you a 651 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: can lie in. But if four people saw it doesn't 652 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: matter talk. Yeah, I'd say, you know, if I look 653 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: at things I've learned here at my heart, I think 654 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: frequency and audio is particularly powerful pairing. There's a lot 655 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: of brands out there. There's a lot of products out 656 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: there that I actually love and would go by, and 657 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: they're just not in my head. We've had this conversation, 658 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: you know about alcohol brands. Right, I stand at the 659 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: bar and I go, what do I want tonight? Sometimes 660 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: it's just short form high frequency. Remind me who you are, 661 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: Remind me what you do, Remind me that you even exist, 662 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be inclined to buy it if 663 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm in that target and you put yourself in my 664 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: consideration set. Sometimes we overthink the message the old top 665 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: of mind. Yeah, you were there at the beginning of 666 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: the Internet. You were there obviously at the beginning of diamonds. 667 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: We'll put that aside. And they were there in the 668 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: beginning of branded content. You really were one of the 669 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: pioneers before anybody put that word. I know, it was like, 670 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what it was before. How did you 671 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: sort of start with branded content? Where did the idea 672 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: come from? And how did it wind up being a 673 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: thing that was in so many ways, probably one of 674 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: the best jobs I ever had. And it started as 675 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: an experiment with this crazy woman Joe and Bradford, who 676 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: was never going to make it at Microsoft and came 677 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: from the outside and was going to drive ad sales 678 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: on the Internet and a company that didn't even like 679 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: saying the word advertising. I think at that time we 680 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: called advertising the merchant business. And she had aspirations for 681 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: where billions of dollars out there in the ad market 682 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: and going to shift to digital. I met her, I 683 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: didn't work for her, and we met a couple of 684 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: times in different meetings, and you know, she'd take me 685 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: aside and she said, all right, you get marketing. I'm 686 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: gonna get you in any room you want the best 687 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: marks in the world, the biggest companies, I'll get you 688 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: in those rooms. I need you to bring them ideas 689 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: that we can do on the Internet, because I'll never 690 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: make a billion dollars on hotmail banners. I need ideas, 691 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: I'll give you the resources you need. You tell me 692 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: what you need, we'll figure it out. And I was like, wow, 693 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: it's kind of a crazy cool opportunity. How can I 694 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: say no? She's this force of nature? And I said okay, 695 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: and I started this little experiment with two people doing 696 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: what became a hundred million dollar branded content business a 697 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: few years later. I just listened to great marketers, heard 698 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: what they wanted, and then I came back talked to 699 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: engineers about how could I do a thing that does that? 700 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: And we found our way to all of the earliest 701 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: innovations for brands online. We made things move, we created 702 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: experiences on top of words, we eventually got into video, 703 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: we put games in messaging, and and all of those 704 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: things came out of sitting with a marketer and going 705 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: how are you trying to launch that cola? And you know, 706 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: who are you trying to reach with that car, and 707 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: then finding a way to connect it back to technology. 708 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: So for me, you know, branded content was where I 709 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: learned everything about digital marketing and how to build a 710 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: business without even meaning to. I also learned that you 711 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: have to not stay in a box. We fought with engineers, 712 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: and we fought with homepage editorial people, and we broke 713 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: probably every rule there was to break within the MSN organization. 714 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: But we built a brand new business and a brand 715 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: new category for the Internet. So you know, maybe we 716 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: need to break some more things around here. So branded 717 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: content today too much? Not enough? Good question? I think 718 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: it depends where. You know, as marketers were not known 719 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: for restraint, we tend to overdo that which works or 720 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: obviously I'm biased, but I think branded audio content is 721 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,959 Speaker 1: the next giant greenfield. The numbers of people listening to podcasts, 722 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: the ability for brand to say, what's the conversation I 723 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: want to have, who should I have it with, what 724 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: of the topics we should talk about, and then curate 725 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: that conversation and that content themselves or with a partner. 726 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: There's an endless number of stories brands have the right 727 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: to tell. And I think audio is so fast and efficient, 728 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: and people are listening more and watching less branded Instagram pages. 729 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: Maybe we have enough. Don't We normally say, okay, recommend 730 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: a book. Well, since we're in this business, we have 731 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: to say recommend a podcast and recommend a book. What 732 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: podcast do you recommend. What book do you recommend? I 733 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: tend to read probably more fiction than nonfiction, But when 734 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: it comes to like work and business books, I always 735 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: go back to Strength Finders. Every team I ever worked 736 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: with or manage, I go back to it because the 737 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: core idea of reminding yourself that it's okay to play 738 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: to your strengths and you're probably never going to be 739 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: good at the stuff you suck at. Surround yourself with 740 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: people who are good at the stuff you suck at. 741 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: It's just such a fundamental principle. I've tried to live 742 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: my career around and then you know, I've been trying 743 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: to catch up on a lot of our new I 744 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,479 Speaker 1: Heart podcasts. Again, I'm a little biased, but I love 745 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: Spit as a marketer. It's a branded podcast that we've 746 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: done with twenty three and me the DNA test Company. 747 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: DNA is a fascinating topic. It's changing everything in our 748 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 1: sense of identity and connection and who we are. There's 749 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: just an endless array of stories to be told. So 750 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: I love this idea of mashing up interesting brainiac academics 751 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: with fascinating pop culture people and seeing what happens in 752 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: a conversation about identity and belonging. It's raw and it's real, 753 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: but it's also great marketing because it's really built on 754 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: the truth of who twenty three and me are as 755 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: a brand, and they're just scratching the surface of stories 756 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: they can tell. I want to sort of close it up. 757 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: You've gone all the way from Rhode Island. You've been 758 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: the bagman for a diamond if you've been at Microsoft 759 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: and really the go go years really inventing the Internet 760 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: and your I heeart. You really alated a pivotal role 761 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: here and really reinventing this whole audio world and taken 762 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: this company from the old clear channel one platform broadcast 763 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: radio to this multi platform company that is I Heart 764 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: and that has a whole different relationship with consumers and 765 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: with our advertising partners. What's one thread that's gone through 766 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: it all? We close up today and say this is 767 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: Gail Treberman, Genius CMO. The one threat about Gail is 768 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm passionate about great conversations that lead to great ideas 769 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 1: with great people, and those are the three things when 770 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: they come together. In my life, I've always been at 771 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: my best, performing my best, accomplishing great results, and having 772 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: a shipload of fun, Gail. Thanks. Here are some things 773 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: I picked up from Gail. One. According to Gail, brands 774 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: no longer have the luxury of dropping a big campaign 775 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 1: for a few months and then going away to plan 776 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: another one. Instead, brands need a real, everyday touch point 777 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: with consumers. Two. If you're looking for a mentor, Gail 778 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: always recommends the person who doesn't think like you do. 779 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: It's too easy to surround yourself with people who have 780 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: the same background and skill set as you do. Three. 781 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: Gayle believes there's still room to do some great branded 782 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: content because, as she puts it, there's an endless number 783 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: of stories brands have the right to tell. And a 784 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: quick plug here, I'm a little biased and that audio 785 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: is the fastest and most efficient way to tell those stories. 786 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. 787 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a 788 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by 789 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and 790 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat Nikki 791 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: Etre for pulling research, Bill Plax, and Michael Asar for 792 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: their recording help. Our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course 793 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: Gayl Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped 794 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: bring this show to your ears. Until next time,