1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Yvette Gentila 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: and I'm Rasha Paccuerrero. This week, we are talking about 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: a truly shocking case, and that's the case of Shonda Cherer, who, 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: at the age of twelve, was abducted, tortured, and killed 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: by four teenage girls. Yeah. This is a case of 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: teenage bullying gone completely off the deep in and it's 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: been the subject of at least two true crime books 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: and a play featuring Chloe Sabagnier, and many poems about 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: this as well. 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: And I think what fascinates everyone, or so it seems, 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 3: is how this crime was perpetuated by teenage girls. I 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: mean mean girls is an understatement on this case. It's 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 3: the original mean girls, right. 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so we're going to be getting into that today, 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 2: and we're also going to be talking with our guest 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 2: who is a author and journalist. She is Aphrodite Jones, 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: and she's written a book about this case. 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: But first our producer Trevor is going to take us 25 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 3: through today's case. 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: Jackie Vaught's daughter Shanda, was kidnapped and murdered in nineteen 27 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 4: ninety two by four teenage girls. 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: Court testimony showed some of the girls had been abused 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: by their parents. 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 5: It turns into anger. If you keep that hurt and 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 5: don't let it go or don't forgive that person, that 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 5: hurt can turn into anger and hate, and I'll make 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 5: you do things that you would never really do. That evening, 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 5: there were four girls there that had a lot of 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 5: hatred inside of them, and it just all exploded. 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: Shanda Shearer was a twelve year old girl who was 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: killed in nineteen ninety two by four other girls in Madison, Indiana. 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: The year before, She and her family had just moved 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: to the nearby town of New Albany, Indiana. That fall, 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: she met a girl named Amanda Heron. Soon they began 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: exchanging romantic letters, and in October they went to a 42 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: dance together. At the dance, they were confronted by another 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: girl named Melinda Loveless. Loveless was older sixteen. The previous spring, 44 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: she and Amanda had been romantically involved, and although the 45 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: relationship had fizzled out, they had never formally ended things. 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Seeing Amanda at the dance with someone else, Melinda got angry. 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: Melinda had a difficult home life with a violent and 48 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: sexually abusive father. She was close friends with seventeen year 49 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: old Laurie Tackett, who also had a difficult time at 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: home and had dropped out of high school that year. 51 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: Also in their orbit where two other girls named Hope 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Rippy and Tony Lawrence, who were both fifteen years old. 53 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: The night of January tenth, nineteen ninety two, the four 54 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: girls were hanging out and Melinda Loveless told the girls 55 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: that she was going to use a knife to scare Shanda, 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: a girl they'd never met. She wanted to intimidate Shanda 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: for dating her girlfriend. The girls drove to Shanda's house, 58 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: where Tony Lawrence and Hope Rippy went to the door 59 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: and told Shanda they were friends of Amanda's and that 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: Amanda wanted to meet her at a building known locally 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: as the Witch's Castle, an abandoned stone house by the 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: Ohio River. When she got in the car with them, 63 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: Lawrence held a knife to Shanda's throat. The girls drove 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: to Witch's castle and dragged a sobbing Shanda inside. There, 65 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: Melinda Loveless tied Shanda's hands as Rippy taunted her with 66 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: the knife. The girls took her jewelry and a Mickey 67 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: Mouse watch that she was wearing. Later, Melinda Lovelass and 68 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: Lori Tackett made Shanda strip down to her underwear. Then 69 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: the girls began assaulting her, punching her and taking turns 70 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: stabbing her in the chest. Then they strangled her with 71 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: a rope until she passed out, and then put her 72 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: in the trunk. At one point, Shanda began screaming from 73 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: the trunk, and so Laurie Tackett went to go stab 74 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: her again with a pairing knife. Melinda Lovelace reportedly laughed 75 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: and bragged about the torture to her friends, and finally 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: the girls drove Shanda to a secluded area where they 77 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: poured gasoline on her and lit her on fire. Shanda's 78 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: body was found by two hunters and they alerted the police. 79 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: The next day. Hope, Rippy and Tony Lawrence went to 80 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: the county Sheriff's office and gave statements describing the night before. 81 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: They put most of the blame on Melinda Lovelace and 82 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: Lori Tackett. All four girls went to trial and entered 83 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: plea bargains to avoid the death penalty. Melinda and Laurie 84 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: were tried as adults and were both sentenced to sixty 85 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: years in prison. However, they were released on parole in 86 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and twenty eighteen, respectively. Hope Rippy received a 87 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: thirty five year sentence and was released on parole in 88 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. Tony Lawrence received twenty years and 89 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: was released on parole in two thousand and So what 90 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: led to the murder of Shanda Scherer and how could 91 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: four teenage girls be driven to torture and kill another 92 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 1: person so violently? 93 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: Hello? 94 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: Everyone, We are so pleased to welcome our guests for 95 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: today's case. Writer, journalist, and crime expert Afrodyite Jones is 96 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: here with us today. She has written a book on 97 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: the case of Shanda Sharer entitled Cruel Sacrifice. She's also 98 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 3: written numerous other true crime books, including The FBI Killer 99 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: and A Perfect Husband. Many of Aphrodite's books have been 100 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: made into films and television shows, and she even produced 101 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 3: her own show, True Crime with Aphrodite Jones, which ran 102 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: for six seasons on Investigation Discovery. The list of amazing 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 3: credentials goes on and on and on. So, without further ado, 104 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: Aphrodite a komo mai or welcome to facing evil. 105 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 4: Thank you. I've been used to facing evil my whole 106 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 4: professional life. 107 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: Oh you and us both, Aphrodite, who we got a 108 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 3: lot to talk about. 109 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 6: I'm like kidding when I say that. 110 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 4: You know that, right? 111 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 7: Yeah? 112 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 4: I know. 113 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: Well, now that we know a little bit about you, Aphrodite. 114 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 3: You know, of course we want to talk today about Shanna, 115 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: but we want to learn even more about you. So 116 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: we fell into true crime because of our lineage and 117 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: its connection to our mom's story. How did you fall 118 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: into true crime? Like how did you first get interested 119 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: in it? 120 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 4: Like? 121 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: What led you to this, you know, facing evil of 122 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: your own? 123 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 6: Well, it was it was honestly a calling for me. 124 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 4: It was a fluke. I was living in Kentucky, Appalaysia 125 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 4: at the time. I was a professor college and I 126 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 4: also did a radio gig because I always was involved 127 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 4: with media and broadcasting. So I was doing a radio 128 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 4: gig as well, and an FBI agent killed his lover 129 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 4: informant and became the first FBI agent in history and 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: still to this day to cop a murder plated manslaughter. 131 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 4: He led them to her bones. She was pregnant and 132 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 4: threatening him and mountain woman in other words, hillbilly right 133 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 4: back then, So I'm like, okay, where's the news the time, 134 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 4: I didn't have it. Newsweek had a blurb this big, 135 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 4: and I just understand, like, where's CNN? Where is everybody? Why? 136 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 4: This is a historic case. So I called my agent. 137 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 4: I had an agent, had Toady written a book about 138 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 4: the entertainment business, because that's the business I was in 139 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: and wanted to be in. 140 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: Same understand, let me talk. 141 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 4: To killers and monsters, you know, and people who've lost 142 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 4: family members. That was not in the carts, I thought. Anyway. 143 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: I called the agent and he said, oh, you can't 144 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 4: do anything about this. This is a big story and 145 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 4: Rule is going to be calling. I thought, who the 146 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: hell is and Rule? 147 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 6: At that time, That's how little I knew about it, right, 148 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 6: He said, you don't read this. I did a PhD 149 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 6: in literature. 150 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: No, there was no true prime on the list at NYU, 151 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 4: so ps she he said, well, reading coulb what I did, 152 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 4: and somehow thought at that time I could do this, 153 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 4: and I wound up, you know, interviewing my family. It 154 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 4: became a TV movie with Patricia Cat Stephen Weber, and 155 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 4: the book was incredibly successful. And then I hit on 156 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 4: Curl Sacrifice, and when that happened, I went to the 157 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 4: New York Times list. I kind of got stuck with 158 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 4: the genre in particular writing Curl Sacrifice. When I look 159 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: back at it, and I did look back last night 160 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 4: in preparation for this, that was the hardest book probably 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: that I ever wrote, because of the subject matter. Of course, 162 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 4: I really didn't want another write intrade crime book after that. 163 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 4: I really did not. 164 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 6: I was so. 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 4: Mentally drained, emotionally drained from the whole experience. I was 166 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 4: able to see the car that Shanda was in. I 167 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 4: was taken to the evidence area where that car was 168 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 4: in a lot, and they opened that trunk and dry 169 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 4: blood was still there and you could smell it. Oh, 170 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 4: and you could see areas where she tried to scratch 171 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: her way through because those old cars in those days, 172 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 4: you could get through the backseat through the speakers, and 173 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 4: and this poor girl was trying to do that right, 174 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 4: you know, when they asked me, did I want to 175 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 4: see the chunk? Wasn't expecting that. Then what happened was 176 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 4: when I got to the Hope Rippy's sentencing hearing in 177 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 4: South Bend, Indiana, a writer came up to me and said, 178 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: I'm writing this book. And I said, well, good luck 179 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 4: to you. 180 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: Oh, I said, good luck to you. 181 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 4: You know, like I'm working with the family. I said, okay, 182 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 4: good luck to you. 183 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 6: Yeah. I didn't know the name of the book at 184 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 6: the time. 185 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 4: I just knew that Jackie bought the mom was working 186 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: with this writer, and in my mind, I had no choice. 187 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 4: But also the story was really to talk to these girls. 188 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 4: That was the story. What happened these children's lives. They're 189 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 4: fifteen and sixteen years old. What could have happened in 190 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 4: these girls' lives they could possibly have made them do this? 191 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 4: And in particular obviously Melinda Loveless because she was the ringleader. 192 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 4: So I wrote to her, oh you did, oh yeah, 193 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 4: and Melinda answered and when we comes here and I 194 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 4: have to say back then, I've seen pictures of her 195 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 4: recently where she was released. She was gorgeous in person. 196 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 4: She's not photogenic. Her pictures do not do her justice. 197 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 4: This girl was dropped dead gorgeous, I mean sixteen, but 198 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 4: she was absolutely stunning. And I could not believe I'm 199 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 4: sitting there with this beautiful girl who was telling me, 200 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 4: oh it was it was so sad. She was just 201 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 4: so nonchalant about it. I was just like, that's how 202 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 4: it was back then. I'm like, back then, you're sixteen. 203 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 4: When was back then when you were six? 204 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 7: Oh? 205 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 6: You know, wow, so weird. 206 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 4: But she wanted she wanted me to tell the story, 207 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 4: and she connected me with her mom, who I worked with, 208 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 4: you know, for quite a while. And obviously then the 209 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 4: police and the evidence and all the rest of the 210 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 4: interviews came in. It was tough. 211 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: I can only imagine aphrodity, Like, you know, I'm just 212 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: sitting there listening to everything that you're saying and taking 213 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: it in, and you know, this crime was so incredibly brutal, 214 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: you know, And when we think about it, it was 215 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two, like Russia and I were both 216 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: in Hawaii, so I hadn't heard of it at all. 217 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: But the fact that these girls right were so young 218 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: and we've all been through mean girls, teenage bullying. But 219 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: the extremeness the torture in which you were just talking about, right, Melinda, 220 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: like what they did to Shanda, How do we comprehend that? 221 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: You know from you writing your book and interviewing, like, 222 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: how did you so? 223 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 4: First and foremost, I realized that Melinda, who was the ringleader, 224 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 4: was the only person who wanted to have this done, 225 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 4: so it had to be her backstory. I knew there's 226 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 4: something in her background that's horrific, which there was and 227 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 4: is apart from that. And her mother admitted to me 228 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 4: that she was a masochist, and I just she know. 229 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 4: The mother was raped by various people. The father raped 230 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 4: the mother in front of the girls. There was a 231 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 4: lot of sleeping with the girl's pistol whipping. I don't 232 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 4: you know, craziness in that household that I later discovered. 233 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 4: But also the thing that struck me was Lori Tackett 234 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: was out for blood. She was a ticking time on. 235 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 4: So when Melinda Loveless connected with Lori Tackett, she found 236 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 4: the person she needed. Tony Lawrence and Hope Rippy were 237 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 4: just in the car for the ride down from Madison 238 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 4: to no Obany. That's a pretty long ride right now. 239 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 4: It's not a fifteen minute you know drive away. It's 240 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: an hour plus two almost. It's quite a bit of 241 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 4: a distance. So you know, those girls went along for 242 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: a ride. They don't even know what they're getting into 243 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 4: until they got to Melinda's house, who they've never met 244 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: in their lives. And Melinda says, I just she pulls 245 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 4: out that knife, scare Shanda. They don't even know who 246 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 4: Shanda is. They don't none of them have met Shanda 247 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 4: first and foremost you have to say to answer your 248 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 4: question that this has to do partially with pure pressure, 249 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 4: because the other two girls that didn't have really either 250 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 4: a dog in this bite or a bloodlust. How did 251 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 4: they wind up participating? And that's an interesting dynamic here 252 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 4: because we see how people I don't know drop like lemmings, 253 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 4: especially when they're teenagers. The other thing with teenagers, as 254 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 4: we all know, everything is the end of the world, right, yeah, 255 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 4: there's no tomorrow here. Everything is the end of the world. 256 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 4: And it's all you met somebody two seconds ago and 257 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 4: your best friends, I love her. 258 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 6: Hell for yesterday. 259 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 4: But this is like she's so right, So you have 260 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 4: all these weird mixture of elements that you know, you 261 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 4: could say bullying. I mean, Shannon was bullied in the school, right, 262 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: Melinda was after her. But this goes beyond any kind 263 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 4: of bullying. I mean, let's face it, this is one 264 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 4: of the worst crimes in the history of teenagers. 265 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 6: It really, truly is. 266 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 3: I have so much respect for you that you can 267 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: go in as you know, basically as a journalist with 268 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 3: open eyes and not look at Melinda or any of 269 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: these other young girls because they were young girls that 270 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: did this horrific. 271 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: Unthinkable thing. 272 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: But again I don't want to give them a free 273 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 3: past because of their history and their home life had 274 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: to affect what they did to Shanda, right, like you said, 275 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: it wasn't just bullying like this was something deeper, something 276 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: horrific had been done to these young girls. 277 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 4: Well, so, Melinda, we believe was sleeping with their father. 278 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 4: We know they slept in the same bed. She never 279 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: admitted that he actually you know, had sex with her, 280 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: but we know he had sex with the other two 281 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: daughters and the mother had sex. He raped the mother 282 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 4: in front of the three girls. All that went on. Also, 283 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: there was allegations that he had molested her cousins, So 284 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 4: out of all females in that household, she's the only 285 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 4: one who didn't admit to that. When her parents got 286 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 4: a divorce and Larry Lovelace left the house, Melinda now 287 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 4: felt like she's deserved by the only man that she 288 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 4: cares about. Clearly she's in love with her father, and yes, 289 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 4: I'm sure she was, you know, being molested thinking that 290 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 4: this was okay in this incestuous relationship because kids don't 291 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 4: know what to think, especially if they've been groomed from 292 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 4: a young age. Is sitting happen when she turned sixteen. 293 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 4: This is going on from the time she's a little girl, 294 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 4: and with her older sisters. Now I found out from 295 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 4: the older sisters who I spoke with. So when you're 296 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 4: in that scenario and your only person in the world 297 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 4: who you trust, who you think is your protector and 298 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 4: your love of your life leaves, now obviously she doesn't 299 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 4: trust men. So that's why she's with the girls's with 300 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 4: Amanda Heaven and now Amanda Heaven, who she'd been holding 301 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: on to for dear life right as her person in 302 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 4: the world who had you know, more of a butch. 303 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 6: Look, if you want to use that word. 304 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 4: You know, the backwards baseball hat, the very short hair, 305 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: the whole opposite of Melinda with the long Floyd locks. 306 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 6: And it was a male figure in her life as well. 307 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 6: And now that person. 308 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 4: Is leaving her for some little girl, whoever that little 309 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 4: girl is. In Melinda's mind, it's not a little girl. 310 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 4: It's a competition. They didn't separate themselves from whether they're 311 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 4: fifteen or twelve. Yeah, and that's interesting because you know 312 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 4: you think of, oh, that's the way it is today. 313 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: All these kids are produced and they mix it up 314 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 4: and Matt, no, this has been going on from the beginning. 315 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: Of time, right, we were having this conversation about another case. 316 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: And if you think about everything that you just said 317 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: about what Melinda had gone through as a child, and 318 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 2: if you treat someone like a dog, they're gonna behave 319 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: like a dog. Melinda, she didn't know what love is, 320 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: but she believed that she loved Amanda. And now Amanda 321 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: is leaving her as well. 322 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 4: And that's another thing. People redirect anger, right, So rather 323 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 4: than putting the anger toward her mother, who allowed all 324 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 4: of this and who admitted to me that she was 325 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 4: a massachist and allowed herself to be raped in front 326 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 4: of these girls, etc. Et cetera, and has swinging partners 327 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 4: and other people brought into the house and the girl's 328 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 4: hearing all of it and knowing the house it's small. 329 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 4: So Melinda is thinking that that the world is upside 330 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: down for her. It doesn't make any sense to her. 331 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 4: She needs some kind of validation, and that's what she 332 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 4: got from Amanda Hevron. So now her validation goes away. 333 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 4: Now her she doesn't know what's with life. And again, 334 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 4: you know, with teenagers's the end of the world. For her, 335 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 4: it was the end of the world. She had to 336 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 4: eliminate this competition at whatever cost. 337 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 6: She didn't care, right, Yeah, I mean it's amazing. 338 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 4: You know. You look at the letters she wrote and 339 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 4: more of them which was read in the court said 340 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 4: I want Shanda dead and was very specific. 341 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 6: Wow, it's not like. 342 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: It was a laughterthought for her. This was premeditated, cold 343 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: blooded killed. That's what this was. Yeah, this was not 344 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 4: a lord Shanda from her house. Melinda was hiding in 345 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 4: the backseat of the car under a blanket, and then 346 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 4: once Shanna got in that car, Melinda jumps out the 347 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 4: knife to her throat, pulling her back from the front seat. 348 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: She had told the other girls that she just wanted 349 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 4: to scare Shanda. Lori Teckett, I'm sure knew more than that. 350 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 4: The other two girls who were along for the ride 351 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 4: did not. They really had no idea what they were 352 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 4: getting into. Those two girls would never have done this, 353 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 4: I'm convinced of that, had they not been in that car, 354 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: had they not been kind of prodded along the way. 355 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 4: Do you have to think about too and not making 356 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 4: any excuses for them, because we know Hope Rippy poured 357 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 4: the gasoline on Shanda. Part of the reason there was 358 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 4: so much torture, I think is that these girls really 359 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: didn't know how to kill someone. They thought that they 360 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 4: had killed her after they stabbed her a few times 361 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 4: and pulled the rope around her neck, thinking that they 362 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 4: strangled her. 363 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 6: And next thing I know, she's banging in the back 364 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 6: of the car. 365 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 4: But now you have two other girls in the back 366 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 4: seat here in Shanada. What are they thinking? Am I 367 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 4: going to be next? Like? 368 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 6: Look what they just did to this little girl. 369 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 4: We don't know Melinda, they never met before. She's holding 370 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 4: her knife to Shanna's neck and threatening at that witch's 371 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 4: castle that she's going to put her in with a 372 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 4: bag of bones with the other bones, and the girls 373 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: at that point all chimed in because that was just 374 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 4: kind of having fun, you know, it was a game 375 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 4: to them in the beginning. They drummed this whole thing 376 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 4: up and they scared her. 377 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: This is just a whole another level of cruelty. And 378 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: when I think about, like for me, thinking about this case, 379 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: and it's probably it may be different for you because 380 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: you were, you know, right in the mix of it, 381 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, interviewing, and you wrote a book about it. 382 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 6: But do you. 383 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 2: Think that these girls should have been tried as adults? 384 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely. I met with one of their lawyers and I'll 385 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 4: never forget he said to me, this is a mind 386 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 4: feel out there. Every time you get another teen who's 387 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 4: coming to you for whatever reason in the you know, 388 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 4: violation crime. They've committed act of violence. They're just waiting 389 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 4: to blow up. Now, this was thirty years ago. It's 390 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 4: funny that right now we say that about now right 391 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: we see school careersoting those didn't even exist back then. 392 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety two, when this book in ninety three 393 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 4: was being written and came out, there was no schoolhouse shootings. 394 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 6: Yet there was nothing. 395 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: So when this lawyer said to me, I face a mind. 396 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 4: Feel out there every time. You know, he represented juveniles. 397 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: Every time another juvenile came to him for defense, he 398 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 4: would see what was behind their mask and the vulnerability 399 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 4: and sadness and just lack of ability. 400 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 6: To cope with life. 401 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 402 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 6: Yeah, that does. 403 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 4: Not mean that you can go and take someone else's 404 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 4: life and give you any excuses. 405 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. 406 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 6: There's no getting around that. 407 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 4: What these girls did, and they all participated, and the 408 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 4: way that Tony Lawrence, who eventually turned on the girls 409 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 4: and was chief in getting these guilty. Please Tony Lawrence 410 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 4: and Hope Rippy they went to her house right, yeah, 411 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 4: and they were there for two three hours while Melinda 412 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: and Laurie went country driving. So once they left the house, 413 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 4: and here's Hope and Tony very safe, why are they 414 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 4: not calling the police? I mean, I can understand you're 415 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 4: scared because you're for your own life. Okay, but how 416 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 4: about Shanda, how about what's going on right now? You 417 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: don't tell your parents? Oh my god, this girl's are crazy. 418 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 4: There's a girl in the trunk. You don't say anything. 419 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you just. 420 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: Sit there and read room stones and be in a magical, 421 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: bizarre world. 422 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 6: It's incomprehensible to me. 423 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 2: Even Amanda, they had told her right to look in 424 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: the trunk and she still didn't call the face. 425 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 4: That's after the fact, Hope Rippy and Tony Lawrence had 426 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 4: the ability to shave save Shanda's life. When Amanda was 427 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 4: shown that trunk, it. 428 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: Was all over all, was all done. Yes, that was. 429 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 4: Later No no, no, Tony Lawrence and Hope Rippy and 430 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 4: Tony got away with really murder in the sense that 431 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 4: she only did ten years was out of twenty. They 432 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 4: could have stopped this, and there were other opportunities. They 433 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 4: had stopped at gas stations, they were at a punk 434 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 4: rock thing in Louisville for a few hours waiting to 435 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: go back to Retreat Shanada. There were numerous times that 436 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 4: they got lost driving around where they had the opportunity 437 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: to stop it or to get out of it. 438 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 6: Even though they didn't live down there. 439 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 4: I understand, you're not supposed to have driven to the 440 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 4: three hours away. That you're sixteen and fifteen years old. 441 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 4: You don't want to get in trouble with. 442 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 6: Your parents and this and that. But once they. 443 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 4: Got back to Madison, Indiana. 444 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 6: They're safe and they're in Tony's house. 445 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 4: So why would Tony Lawrence go along with knowing that 446 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 4: Lauri and Melinda. 447 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 6: Are going to kill her. 448 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: Let's talk about their sentencing. Tell us how you felt 449 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: about the sentencing that the girls got. 450 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 4: I think that even the Hope Rippy went on for 451 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 4: the ride and didn't know what she was getting into, 452 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 4: Hope allowed this to happen. And when Hope participated with 453 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 4: Laura Tackett taking that two liter bottle of soda, dumping 454 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 4: it out on the ground of a gas station a 455 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 4: circle k and filling that with gasoline, that's not Maybe 456 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 4: I don't know, Maybe that's deliberate knowing you are going 457 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 4: to kill someone. Now they may have thought she was 458 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 4: already dead. Who knows. 459 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 6: It doesn't matter. 460 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 4: At what point does it become your fault. That's when 461 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 4: it became help Rippy's fault, because not only does she 462 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 4: fill that two lead her bottle with gasoline, but then 463 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 4: she followed through when they got Shanda and put her 464 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: in that field, pouring that gasoline all over the child 465 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 4: and letting Laurie light the match. You know that Shanda 466 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 4: died of spoken inhalation. 467 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, because she fought like she fought. I mean, she 468 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: fought she. 469 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 4: Was alive when they wrapped her in a blanket and 470 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 4: put her in that field. And then not only that, Melinda, 471 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 4: who is absolutely a savage, she realized I don't think 472 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 4: she's burned enough and had them turn back around and 473 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 4: lighted again. 474 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 6: Wow. 475 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 4: And one of the things that happened to me when 476 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 4: I was researching this book is, yeah, I spent a 477 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 4: lot of time in courtrooms. I spent a lot of 478 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 4: time in evidence rooms, et cetera. And a court clerk 479 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: came to me and she said, Okay, you want to 480 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 4: see this video, said jud She goes, you want me 481 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 4: to sit with you while you watch it? 482 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 3: Wow. 483 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 4: I said, no, that's okay, that's okay. It was the 484 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 4: video of the hunters who found Shanda. And as I'm 485 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 4: looking at this thing and realizing she did look like 486 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 4: a mannequin that was burned, and the closer and they 487 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 4: got I mean the pictures I show in the book 488 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 4: are not anywhere near how horrific this image really was. 489 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 4: I mean, her face was I don't know how to 490 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 4: explain this in politically correct terms, but it was black 491 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 4: as coal. It was like the color of my hair 492 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 4: but all bubbled up and you know. 493 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 6: Just horrifying. 494 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, I can never get that image out of my head. 495 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can never unsee that. 496 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 6: I don't even like to revisit this story, honestly. 497 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: I can only imagine I can completely understand why, yeah. 498 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 4: You know, And then I think about how Jackie got 499 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 4: eventually forgave me Linda loveless. That is stunning to me. 500 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 4: I presume Jackie did that for on Sanity long before 501 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: Melinda was released, and Linda was only released in twenty nineteen. 502 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 4: This forgiveness and helping Melinda by giving her a dog 503 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 4: called Angels so she could train these dogs to help 504 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 4: disabled people and children. 505 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 6: That are methylishes. 506 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 4: Whatever it was, I'm sorry, no. 507 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we talk about that, you know, a lot, 508 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: in facing evil, and we always end, you know, with 509 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: any mooa and Jackie is is anymua herself? Because like 510 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: you just said, to be able to forgive someone who 511 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: brutally tortured your daughter is I can't comprehend it, but 512 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: we've seen it many times before, you know, with Judy Shepherd, 513 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: who was Matthew Shepherd's mom. That you know, there's I 514 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: guess I could never speak for them, but there has 515 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: to be some type of closure for them. 516 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 4: I have encouraged victims' mothers, okay, try to forgive so 517 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 4: that they're not suffering, because the longer they suffer throughout 518 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 4: the rest of their lives, the more this person who 519 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 4: did this has hold over you. 520 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 6: Right, So you're continually. 521 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 4: Revictimized by what this person did, and it's just a 522 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 4: record that's going in your head all the time. 523 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 6: So I think what Jackie Bah did there. 524 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 4: Because Melinda was using training dogs to help other people, 525 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 4: this was the idea in her mind. She was able 526 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 4: to finally go there. But you know, Steve Shearer, her 527 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 4: father drank himself to death and died at fifty two 528 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 4: years old. I mean, think about that, the guilt that 529 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 4: this man felt for allowing his daughter to go to 530 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: the front door, not once, but twice. But he knew 531 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 4: those girls didn't know his daughter because they asked is Shandy? 532 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 4: When Shanda opened the door and he heard, and he 533 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 4: questioned her and he says, who are these people? He 534 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 4: realizes they don't know his daughter. Now I have to believe, 535 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 4: and I mean my heart breaks for Steve Sharer that 536 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 4: he could never forgive himself for that. 537 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, of course, yes, 538 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 3: you know, we can all you know, look back and 539 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: be like, you know, Steve should have done this, the 540 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 3: four girls should have done this, I mean, all these things. 541 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: But really, at the end of the day, sadly it 542 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 3: was those four girls that ended Shanda's life, of course, 543 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 3: But I think again, and we always, you know, we 544 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 3: do this on facing evil, like we have to look 545 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 3: for that light in the dark, right, like you said, 546 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 3: like that stunning gem of a human that Jackie had 547 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 3: to be to forgive Melinda, to forgive her ex Steve 548 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 3: to move onward and upward, and that's what he moved me, 549 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: to move onward and upward, like we have to who 550 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 3: like and we always want to focus on the victim, 551 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 3: but it's so hard. 552 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: We didn't know much about Shanda. 553 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 3: She was only twelve. 554 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 7: Well, and that's you know, I mean, that's the other 555 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 7: thing here too, is when you talk about facing evil, 556 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 7: if you don't face it in a way that you 557 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 7: can get past it. 558 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 4: Then for example, Melinda was dealing with evil in her 559 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 4: household all her life, right, yes, and the evil that 560 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 4: transpired there she now projected onto someone else. So whether 561 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 4: it eats your soul, whether it makes you become angry, 562 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 4: and somebody who's going to lash out and do horrible 563 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 4: things to other people because you've been. 564 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 6: Abused, now you're going to abuse your kids or whatever. 565 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 4: And that chain of violence and that chain of abuse 566 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 4: that goes on, somebody's got to stop and say I 567 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 4: can face this, I can get past this. 568 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 7: Yeah. 569 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Just going back to Shanda's mom, right, Jackie, because 570 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about her father, and we know 571 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: that they were divorced, you know, and living in separate households. 572 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: But the thing about Shanda's mom is she did everything right. 573 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: Talking about a sacrificial lamb. I mean, Shanda had no 574 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 4: idea what she was dabbling in there, right, no idea. 575 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 4: And Amanda Heaven swears up and down that it was 576 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 4: Shanda who went to her, that Shanda went after her, 577 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 4: that Shanda had been dating boys, Shanda was sexually active. 578 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 4: I'm not saying she certainly could have been sexually active 579 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 4: at twelve years old. I don't know why she's going 580 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 4: from boys to girls at twelve years old. I don't 581 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 4: know that twelve year olds necessarily are sexually with it, right, 582 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: you know, there's a whole other element of stuff. 583 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 6: Here, like what is happening here? 584 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 4: Yeah? 585 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: So much time, so much to unpack. 586 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, before we wrap things up, Aphrodity, I would love 587 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: to ask you, just because of everything you've so brilliantly 588 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 3: shared with us today, how do you decompress? 589 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 4: Like? 590 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 3: How are you going to walk out of this interview 591 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: after this and go on with your life with things? 592 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 7: You know? 593 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: You can't unsee certain things or think in your head. 594 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 4: There are a couple of things I'm going to say 595 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 4: about this. When I wrote this book, I was a drinker, 596 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 4: and I did this book throughout the night, writing un 597 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 4: till two or three o'clock in the morning. I wrote 598 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 4: it very quickly and in a frenzy. After that, I 599 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 4: had to give up drinking because I was drinking so 600 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 4: much that this book had consumed me. And I don't drink. 601 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 4: I haven't drank it thirty years. 602 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: So, oh, congratulations, thanks. 603 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 4: But talk about a mind vendor. You know, this story 604 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 4: in particular, I didn't know how I was going to 605 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 4: get past it, and even to write it, what I 606 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 4: had to do to get through it. It was so 607 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 4: so hard for me. But at the same time, I 608 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 4: knew this story had to be told because we had 609 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 4: to look at what's going on with teenagers, because it 610 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 4: wasn't just for girls. And yes, they've done the most 611 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 4: horrible thing of any teen I could think of, but 612 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 4: all these other teenagers in the minefield were still out 613 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 4: there and nobody was really paying attention to it. Back then, 614 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 4: it was like, I don't know, everybody's good. We're all No, 615 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 4: they weren't good. And I think the idea of parents 616 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 4: paying more attention of parents and not trying to blame 617 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 4: the parents, but just getting the lesson about this. And 618 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 4: it wasn't just not just Shanda's parents, what about all 619 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 4: the other parents. And I promised myself one thing that 620 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 4: when I was not writing, and I would never write 621 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 4: on a weekend again, which that book I wrote weren 622 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 4: a new night weekends. I decided, I'm never writing past 623 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 4: five o'clock at night anymore. Ever, I am never writing 624 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 4: on a weekend, and I am going to shut myself off. 625 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 6: I'm going to have two lives, two lives. 626 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 4: In which I'm dealing with this horror and all the 627 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 4: monsters I have dealt with since the killers that I'm 628 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 4: on the phones with that I can't imagine writing a 629 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 4: new book now. But when I finished the chapters, and 630 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 4: when my day ends, I go often to Judge Judy Lands, 631 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 4: I go off voting or whatever concert. 632 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 6: I am not there anymore, you know, I can't be good. 633 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you after Deity. 634 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 6: Guy, It's so nice to talk with you both. 635 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: Today's message of hope and healing goes out to someone 636 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 3: whose life was turned into a living nightmare in January 637 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two, and that was Jackie Vaught, Shanda's mother. 638 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 3: Shanda was, by all accounts, a well adjusted girl who 639 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 3: just got involved with the wrong people. For many years, 640 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 3: Jackie Vaught quite understandably didn't want anything. 641 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 2: To do with her daughter's killers. Then in twenty twelve, 642 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: she saw a videotape of Melinda loveless behind bars training 643 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: service dogs, and she says she saw something new in 644 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 2: her eyes, compassion. And then Jackie Vot did the unthinkable. 645 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 3: She donated a puppy to the prison service animal training 646 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 3: program in her deceased daughter's name, and she even let 647 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 3: Melinda train her. 648 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 2: The puppy's name was Angel, and she changed things for Melinda. 649 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 2: Melinda had been on a path of growth for years 650 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: and was remorseful now of her crime. Melinda said of Jackie, 651 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: she helped me to heal and grow. She did a 652 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: good thing and I couldn't think her enough. And I'm 653 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 2: doing it for Shanda. 654 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 3: Jackie Vaught still has no plans to meet her daughter's murderers, 655 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: but this small act of reaching out was an unbelievable 656 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 3: act of compassion, a bright spark in the dark. 657 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: And so Jackie Vaught, today we honor you. Onward and 658 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: upward e moua emua. Well, that is our show for today. 659 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 660 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 2: and if there is a case that you'd like. 661 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 3: Us to cover, find us on social media at Facing 662 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 3: Evil Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod. 663 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: At tenderfoot dot tv. 664 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 3: And one request, if you haven't already, please find us 665 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 3: on iTunes and give us a good review and a 666 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 3: good rating. If you like what we do, your support 667 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: is always cherished. 668 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 2: Until next time, ah Loha. 669 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 670 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile. 671 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers. On Behalf 672 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald 673 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 674 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge. 675 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 676 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil pod at 677 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, 678 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 679 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows