1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 3: If you can die before you die, then you can 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 3: really live. 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: There's a wisdom at death's door. 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 3: I thought I was insane. 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: was no internet. 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you 15 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat, I am the 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: host and quick reminder up top. As always, this podcast 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: does not serve as a replacement or a substitute for 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: any mental health services, although we are always happy if 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: it helps. 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: On whatever journey you're on. 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: It can just be a little buddy, but not actual 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: mental health services. What I'm saying, is you need therapy. However, 26 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: this is not therapy. So today it's somewhat of a 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: solo episode. But then I'm going to throw in a 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: little surprise at the end. And today we're talking about 29 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: living with partners before marriage or without the intention of 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: getting married, even because so often I hear in my 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: office questions and people wondering and just having a hard 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: time discerning if they should live with their partner before 33 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: they get engaged or before they know if they want 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: to marry the person, if they just should do it 35 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: or not, or I hear people who do it and 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: then are sitting there and wondering if they made a mistake. 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: And it's just a question that pops up, and it 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: can become a pretty hot topic at family dinners and 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: just all spaces, including spaces that have religious backgrounds or opinions. 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: And I just thought it would be nice to talk 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: about it, because we're talking about it anyway, why not 42 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: talk about it on the podcast. So, I mean, when 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: you think about should I live with my partner before marriage, 44 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: some of the questions obviously that come up, or is 45 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: this going to help us become stronger? 46 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: Is it going to make marriage easier. 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: Is it going to ruin the first year of marriage 48 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: because we're not going to have that fun excitement and 49 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: these firsts anymore. Or is my family going to judge me? 50 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: Are people going to judge me? Is my church going 51 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: to judge me? I mean, the list goes on and 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: on and on, and today what we're going to do 53 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: is We're just going to have a conversation about some 54 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: plain old facts and then some personal experiences, and I'm 55 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: going to open up a space where I really want 56 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: us all to be thinking about what feels right and 57 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: what feels true to us versus what I think other 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: people think. 59 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: Is right and true for me. 60 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Because, like I said, this is often a controversial topic, 61 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: but at the same time, for some people, it's really 62 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: not that deep, and we make it something that it's 63 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: way more than it really needs to be. So I 64 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: asked you guys that follow me on Instagram your thoughts 65 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: on this. And it's always a tough thing when I 66 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: do that because I have a very biased group of 67 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: people that I'm talking to. Right, most of you guys 68 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: are eighteen really actually, most of you are like twenty 69 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: five to forty five, ninety nine percent women, and most 70 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: of the people that follow me have a lot of 71 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: similarities to me and might have a lot of the 72 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: same beliefs and values and come from similar places. So 73 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: I know that there is a bias to the feedback 74 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: that I got from you guys, and I want to 75 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: keep that in mind. But the reaction that I got 76 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: from you guys, basically I would say ninety eight. I 77 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: want to say ninety nine, but I'm gonna say ninety 78 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: eight percent of you guys are pro living together before 79 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: marriage in general. Some people say for me it wasn't right, 80 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: but I'm pro other people doing it. But it was 81 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: just a very positive reaction, which is not often what 82 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: we get out in the world. And again, I think 83 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 1: it's because obviously a lot of you guys are very similar. 84 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: It's why we're all kind of following the same kind 85 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: of people. Now, if we're taking this back to therapist Catherine, 86 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: the only thing I remember hearing about couples living together 87 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: before marriage in school was this, and will I remember 88 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: where I was sitting, I remember the teacher that said it. 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 3: I remember this so clearly. 90 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: And my friend that also I went to undergrad with 91 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: messaged me when I put the little question box on 92 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: Instagram about what people think about living together before marriage. 93 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: My friend that was in that class with me said, 94 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: this question will always remind me of Say Garrison, who 95 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: was our teacher at the time, who she's the one 96 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: that told us this and taught us this, And the 97 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: only thing I'm ever learning is that living together before 98 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: marriage increases the probability of a couple getting divorced by 99 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: fifty percent. So there twice is more likely to get 100 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: divorced if they live together before they get married. However, 101 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: if the couple gets engaged and then moves in together, 102 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: there's not a measurable difference or impact, so that stat 103 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,559 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. So if you get engaged, then you live together, 104 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: then you get married, you can throw that number out 105 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: in the trash. But if you live together then get engaged, 106 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: then get married, or twice as likely to get divorced, 107 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: then if you don't cohabitate, which is so interesting because 108 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: again a lot of the reasoning people do live together, 109 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: it's not always what a lot of the reasoning is, Oh, 110 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: I want to see what it's like. 111 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 3: I want to see if. 112 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: I want to be around this person ninety percent of 113 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: my life. I want to work out some of those kinks. 114 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I want to work on this stuff before we take 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: that big plunge, and so you would think it would. 116 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: Be more beneficial. 117 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: But we're going to come back to this, and I'm 118 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: gonna let you marinate on that because it's a very 119 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: confusing statistic. And what I will say about me, what 120 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago? How long ago was that at least 121 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: fifteen years I guess what I will say about the 122 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: me that heard that statistic is I took that piece 123 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: of information and I added it to my list of 124 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: what I thought a relationship should look like, which was 125 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: largely based on what other people told me it should 126 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: look like. 127 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: Right, So I added that to my list. 128 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: It almost was like added to my ammo of like 129 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: why it's bad to live with somebody before you're married. 130 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: And I say that because I most of you guys 131 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: know this, but I lived with my fiance before we 132 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: got engaged, so there was some changing along the way. 133 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: And what I want to say before we go any 134 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: farther is that what I'm not going to do today, 135 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: and what I really want you guys to hear is 136 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: what I'm not going to do today is tell anyone 137 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: what they should do or tell anybody what they should 138 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: not do. 139 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 3: This is a. 140 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: Personal choice, a personal choice. This is a personal choice, 141 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: and the right choice is going to look very different 142 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: for a lot of different people. There are valid reasons 143 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: to not live with a partner, and there are very 144 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: very many valid reasons to live with a partner before 145 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: you get married. Also, there are valid reasons to live 146 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: with a partner and never get married and never have 147 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: the intention of getting married. And so what I want 148 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: people to think about as we talk is how norms 149 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: and expectations may have shaped your own beliefs, and if 150 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: given the choice, would those beliefs change If no one 151 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: else knew but you what you were going to do, 152 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: would your answer be different? If you didn't know what 153 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: anybody else was doing, would your answer be different? And 154 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: how much is shame influencing your decision versus freedom? And 155 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: that's something we don't really think about, and I don't 156 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: think that I would have thought about back in the day. 157 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: Is my desire is my choice being influenced by a 158 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: feeling of shame or a feeling of personal freedom? 159 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: Because that makes big difference. 160 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: And a lot of the conversations in general that we 161 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: have on the podcast are invitations for you guys, to 162 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: get to know yourselves better versus getting to know and 163 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: getting closer to the version of you that is largely 164 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: based off of what you think other people expect. And 165 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to reference this again. I keep referencing this 166 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: over and over and over. But if we look at 167 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: the five Regrets of the Dying that Bronnie Ware discovered 168 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: when she was a hospice nurse and talking to people 169 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: who were about to enter the last stages of their lives, 170 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: one of the biggest regrets of people, one of the 171 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: biggest regrets of the dying was I wish I would 172 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: have allowed myself to be the person I truly was 173 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: versus the person I thought other people expected me to be. 174 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: And so again, this podcast is an invitation to get 175 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: to know that person you really are a lot better 176 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: because what's right for you and what's right for us 177 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: can be very contradictory to what we think people expect. 178 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: And well, that's not fair. Plus I say this to everybody, 179 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: and I'm probably said this a million times on here. 180 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: There's no way for us to please everybody, and for 181 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: the people that are pleased for them to be pleased. 182 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: One hundred percent and. 183 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: Agree with how we're living and what we're doing. So 184 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: if I'm not going to be able to please everybody, 185 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: I at least need to make sure I'm in that 186 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: group of people that are pleased with my own life. 187 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: I want to. 188 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: Encourage people that at least you are on your own team. 189 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: So what I'm gonna do real quick is share some 190 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: just plain facts about cohabitation. So what I'm gonna do 191 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: real quick is share some just plain facts about cohabitation. 192 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: And these come from twenty nineteen from the Pew Research Center, 193 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: So these are not my Instagram facts. These come from 194 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: people that actually do this for a living. So when 195 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: adults eighteen to forty four were asked if it's acceptable 196 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: for an unmarried couple to live together again, this is 197 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: from twenty nineteen, fourteen percent of them said it's never 198 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: acceptable for an unmarried couple to live together. Sixteen percent 199 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: said it's only acceptable if you plan on getting married, 200 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: so it's acceptable, but you have to plan on getting married, 201 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: so that's sixteen percent, and sixty nine percent said it's 202 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: acceptable even if you don't plan on getting married, So 203 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: the large majority said that's okay, it's acceptable for unmarried 204 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: people to live together. And then this is also in 205 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: some interesting information. So from the same study adults eighteen 206 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: to forty four, they looked at the people who have 207 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: ever lived cohabitated with a partner and those who have 208 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: ever been married, and they looked at this at two 209 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: different times, So the first time they looked at it 210 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: was twenty and two and the second time was between 211 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and twenty twenty. So in two thousand and two, 212 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: the percentage of people that have ever cohabitated with a 213 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: partner was fifty four percent, and then in twenty thirteen 214 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, the number slightly rose to fifty nine percent, 215 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: so that was the people that just lived with a partner. 216 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: Then the percentage of adults eighteen to forty four who 217 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: had ever been married in twentyd and two was sixty percent, 218 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: and in twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen it dropped to 219 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: fifty percent. So from this we can see that cohabitation 220 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: is rising and marriage is declining. And again this is 221 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: between eighteen and forty four. And this research also is 222 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: confirming the idea that millennials are getting married later and 223 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: focusing on careers and personal goals way more versus just 224 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: focusing on marriage being their number one pursuit. And according 225 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: to another study by Philip Cohne from the University of 226 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: Maryland on divorce, due to millennials waiting longer to get 227 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: married and being more established and stay when they do, 228 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: the divorce risks for those couples are declining, which is fascinating, right, 229 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times and maybe it's 230 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: just me, right, I have my own bias, of my 231 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: own thoughts, but I often hear like, oh, people are 232 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: just waiting so long to get married. It's not what 233 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: it used to and it feels like such a negative thing. 234 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: But what we can see is that people are becoming 235 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: more established, they're going after more things, they're creating more 236 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: fulfilling lives, and yes, they're getting married later, but it 237 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean their lives are less fulfilling. 238 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 3: And also when they do get. 239 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: Married, they have less risks of then getting divorced in 240 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: the first place if they would have just gotten married 241 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: early like people have been used to. And also, what's 242 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: hard about this conversation is that there's this assumption and 243 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm even talking about it as if 244 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: there is this assumption that everyone's goal in life is 245 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: to get married, and everyone believes that marriage is what 246 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: we're supposed to do, and that's just not the case. 247 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: And it brings me back to a podcast I did 248 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, or maybe it was last year, 249 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: but it was called single people are not second Class Citizens, 250 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna link that in the show notes because 251 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: oftentimes people who are single and not married, whether they're 252 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: living with a partner or not married, or they're just 253 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: like single, single, not married, they're seen as like they're 254 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: lacking something, when really, if we look at the lives 255 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: of people that are doing different things before they're getting married, 256 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,719 Speaker 1: their lives are just as full and fruitful and wonderful. 257 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: But there's this negative connotation of like, oh, but they 258 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: don't have that thing. But I don't know that people 259 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: have that same idea and they look at two people 260 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: who are married, and maybe one has a career and 261 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: one doesn't nobody. I don't think people are as fast 262 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: to look at the person who might not have a 263 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: career and say, oh, but you don't have a career, 264 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: you must be so sad, you must really feel like 265 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: you're you're missing out. And I just think That's interesting 266 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: because the assumption of something also perpetuates that thing. And 267 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: so the more that there's this assumption that not being 268 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: married means that there's a lack of something, the more 269 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: that we're asking ourselves, do I have a lack of something? 270 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily think that needs to be the case. 271 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: So again, this is going back to my point, is like, 272 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: there's not a right thing to do. There's a right 273 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: thing to do for you. And we also don't need 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: to understand or agree with someone else's life decision to 275 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: respect the idea that the people around us have the 276 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: ability to make good decisions for themselves, which bog was 277 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: my mind that that's such a hard concept, but it 278 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: continues to be and at sometimes it continues to be 279 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: a hard concept for me as well. I'm in that 280 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: with you guys, And in that it's also really important 281 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: to note that a lot of times, the reason why 282 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: people get married and the reasons they move in with 283 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: a partner can be very different in a lot of ways. So, 284 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: going back to this research, most married people and cohabitating 285 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: adults say that love and companionship are two of the 286 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: major reasons why they decide to either move in with 287 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: their partner or get married, So that's a similarity. But 288 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: on the flip side, not everyone who is moving on 289 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: with a partner is doing so to test run if 290 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: they want to get married, which that's the assumption I 291 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: think a lot of people have, and it was found 292 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: that only twenty three percent, so less than a quarter 293 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: of people who are living with a partner, say that 294 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: wanting to test out their relationship was a major reason 295 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: why they decided to move in with their partner. However, 296 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: four and ten of these cohabitators said that finances and 297 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: convenience were really important factors in their decision. Thirty eight 298 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: percent said moving in with their partner made sense financially, 299 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: and thirty seven percent said it was convenient, which, in 300 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: comparison people who are getting married, thirteen percent of the 301 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: married adults said that finances was a reason why they 302 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: got married. In ten percent said that convenience was the 303 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: reason they got married. So we can see that sometimes 304 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: the reasons are similar and sometimes the reasons are very 305 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: very different. But we are treating these things as the 306 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: same thing and as they go hand in hand. Okay, 307 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: so let's go back to what I was talking about 308 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: in the beginning of this conversation where I was sharing 309 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: with you the one piece of information that I remembered 310 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: learning in school about living with partners before marriage. So 311 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: the information that we have now, the studies that we 312 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: have now find consistently that living together or just cohabitation relationships. 313 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: Are usually less stable. 314 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: And they end more often than marriages do, which I 315 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: think we can all agree service level, that's easy to 316 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: understand and makes sense. I don't really feel surprised by that. 317 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: But what I shared earlier for a lot of people 318 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: might be really surprising, and that is the fact that 319 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: there is an increased chance of divorce when couples live 320 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: together before they get married. So a lot of people 321 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: are like, oh, I don't get it, Like, why would 322 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: that be again, you would think it would be helpful. Well, 323 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: so this is explained by this thing called the inertia effect, 324 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: and essentially what it means is that when you move 325 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: in with somebody, it's easier to let inertia move you forward. 326 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: It's easier to take the next step in the relationship 327 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: than to end it and move out. So this ends 328 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: up meaning that you are increasing the likelihood that you 329 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: will get married to someone you might not have married 330 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: if you didn't live with them, if you live with 331 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: them before you are engaged or married. So this begs 332 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: the question, and it brings us back to the first 333 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: sentence of this episode. Does this mean that living with 334 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: somebody before you are married is bad? Does this mean 335 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: I shouldn't do it? And I wouldn't say so. I 336 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: don't think that's what this means. I would say that 337 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: this means it might be a really good idea to 338 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: have clear goals. If the prospect of marriage is part 339 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: of the reason you want to move in with your partner, 340 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: it might be a really good idea to ask yourself 341 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: the whys of your what what do I want to 342 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: get out of living with my partner? What is pushing 343 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: me to say yes to this thing? What is pushing 344 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: me to take this step? Again, going back to are 345 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: my decisions being influenced by shame or freedom? 346 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 3: And even if. 347 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: Your goals don't involve getting married, because again we have 348 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that that is not like the only good, 349 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: right thing to do that, like Maara, has to be 350 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: a goal of every single person in the world. Some 351 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: people have no interest in that, and that's totally okay. 352 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: So if that's not a goal. And this actually what 353 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm about to say fits for if it is a 354 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: goal or if it isn't. But how do I maintain autonomy? 355 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: So if this relationship becomes something that I don't feel 356 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: good in at some point, I'm still able to be 357 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: independent and get out of this situation versus just kind 358 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: of like like, well, I guess I'm stuck here. So 359 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: I wouldn't take the research and statistics as a reason 360 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: in this situation to just automatically say, well, no, the 361 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: research says, don't do it. Would instead take this information 362 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: into consideration when defining the whys behind your decisions, and 363 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: those decisions being why I want to move in with 364 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: my partner, why I'm wanting to take the next step 365 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,239 Speaker 1: and get getting engaged with my partner, and why I 366 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: want to take the next step after that and get married. Now, 367 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: I have a very special returning guest here with me 368 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: who is currently my cohabitation partner and my fiance, and 369 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: I have him here because we both had different views 370 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: on living together before marriage when we started dating, and 371 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: also I think throughout our lives. So I'm going to 372 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: introduce Patrick van Buren. Hello, Hi, how's it going, it's 373 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: going great. So I will say I grew up very 374 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: much thinking that living together before marriage was not even 375 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: in the question. I would have never I would have 376 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: never considered it. And I'm trying to think about what 377 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: age that changed, and I want to say it was 378 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: probably around like twenty eight twenty nine. 379 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: I'm thirty three. 380 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: And the reasons for me that I would never have 381 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: considered it were largely centered on religion, which I want 382 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: people to know that if that's your reasoning, that's totally okay. 383 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: And hear me when I say you can make decisions 384 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: based off of your religious beliefs without them being rooted 385 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: in shame. I think there's a lot of people unearthing 386 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: that there was a lot of shame in the religious 387 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: decisions that I made, and that is also true. But 388 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: also if you're really believing in that decision and it 389 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: feels right for you, then it doesn't necessarily mean that 390 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: you made that decision of shame. And for me, for 391 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: a while that was true. Like the decisions and the 392 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: thoughts and the beliefs, they made sense and they did 393 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: feel right. But later in life it shifted a little 394 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: bit and I didn't necessarily believe the things that I thought. 395 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: I was supposed to do. 396 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: But I was also afraid of judgment or punishment or 397 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: whatever consequences would come from either peers or family or God. 398 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: And that's where the shame part came in. So I 399 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: say that to say, I'm somebody who's beliefs about this 400 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: have shifted throughout my life, which always a good time 401 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: to plug. You're allowed to change your mind, and you're 402 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: allowed to change your mind often, and that's a good thing. 403 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: So I have Patrick here because I want to have 404 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: you guys here. I mean there's a million perspectives, and 405 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: so take Patrick's perspective and my perspective with the grain 406 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: and salt, but I want you guys to hear and 407 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: Patrick to tell us why he wanted to live together 408 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: before getting engaged and getting married. 409 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean I kind of want to start 410 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: off by saying kind of a similar thing that you 411 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: started off with there. When I was younger and growing up, 412 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of was my belief, wasn't that 413 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: you shouldn't that you shouldn't, Yeah, correct, And I mean 414 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: I don't want to say that it was like a 415 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: religious decision. It was more, you know, I grew up 416 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: going to Catholic school since I was in kindergarten. So 417 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: it was more so because religious people were telling me 418 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: that I shouldn't do it, and I kind of more 419 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: so took that just as like, well that's kind of 420 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: how the world works, like you're just not supposed to 421 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: do it, you know, probably more so because I was, 422 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 2: I feel like growing up a rule follower. So it 423 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: was just like okay, like easy. 424 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: I wanted to do the right thing. 425 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was you know ingrained in me 426 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: that that was the right thing, the right thing. I 427 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: don't know the exact age where maybe that belief switched either, 428 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: but definitely more you know, as I got older more 429 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: starting to think about it more so and think for 430 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: myself on you know what, I think maybe the best 431 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: decision for my situation. So so I'm glad. 432 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: You said it that way because earlier I was talking 433 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: about how there's not one right decision, there's a right 434 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: decision for individual people, and so you grew up and 435 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: I think I would agree that I grew up that 436 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: way of like I want to do the right thing, 437 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 1: and I want to do things the right way, like 438 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: I want to please myself, I want to please my 439 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: family and the people around me, but I also like 440 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: want things to go well. So if this is the 441 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: right way, then I'm going to do it this way. 442 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: So throughout our lives, we've always wanted to do the 443 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: right thing and make the right decision. But it wasn't 444 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: until later adulthood, at least for me, that that right 445 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: decision was based off of me versus what I thought 446 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: other people thought or what people were telling me without 447 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: considering the individuality of myself. 448 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess when you say right decision too, I 449 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: feel like that definition changed throughout my life. Yeah, Like 450 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: when you're young, the right decision is one street. You 451 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: know there's one way to do something and that's the 452 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: right decision, And then you grow up and you realize 453 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: that well again, right decision is a situational thing where 454 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 2: what might be right for some isn't right for others. 455 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: What made it the right decison for you? 456 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: I would say, just thinking about what may foster kind 457 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: of a lifelong prosperous relationship, and to me, deciding to 458 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 2: you know, learn and live and grow with somebody fully 459 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: seeing them every day, seeing ups and downs and stuff 460 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: like that, you know, seeing them for every season of 461 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: the year. It was important to me because I feel 462 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: like there are times when if you you know, if 463 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: you're seeing people for only certain periods of time, you know, 464 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: maybe they're showing you the best of them and not 465 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: some of the other stuff that comes with them. That's 466 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: where people maybe go into this decision for a lifelong 467 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: relationship without kind of what they feel like is all 468 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: the answers, yeah, or you know, you know, understanding someone fully? 469 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: I guess, well, and like, what is it like for 470 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: me to be with this person even when they're, for 471 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: lack of a better word, like annoying me? Or what 472 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: is it like for me to be with this person 473 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: when I just want to be by myself? Like what 474 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: does the relationship look like when those things happen? How 475 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: do we handle that? I think that was part of that. 476 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm also curious, Well, I'm not really curious because I 477 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: know they inserted this, but I want I'm asking you 478 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: as if I don't know, but was that decision that 479 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: you made you wanting to live with me before we 480 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: were engaged or married. Was that a decision that was 481 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 1: championed and supported or was there did you get a 482 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: negative feedback? Did you feel you were disappointing people. 483 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: No, I mean I feel like I was disappointing people 484 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 2: because again I realized it was my decision, and again 485 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: I you know, there are certain decisions that I make 486 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 2: that I want to you know, make everybody happy, happy 487 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: and try to make the best decision for everybody. But 488 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: this was one that I knew that, you know, I 489 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: had to do it my way in order to feel 490 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: like I was setting myself up for success, So, you know, 491 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 2: I was. My parents have always been super supportive of 492 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: anything that I've done throughout my life. Although I'm sure 493 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: they would rather have not done it this way. I 494 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: would say that they're very supportive with the decision at least, 495 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: you know, making sure that I had thought it out 496 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: and was making you know, a good decision. But they 497 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: it was never a moment where they were like, are 498 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: you sure about this? 499 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 3: Like they really want. 500 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: To make all this. 501 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: I think there's a way you can. You don't have 502 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: to agree with some way to respect their decision, and 503 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: you don't have to say, oh, that's what I would 504 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: have done. To respect somebody's decision and to respect their 505 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: ability to make good decisions for themselves. And I think 506 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: that's one thing that I want anybody who's listening to 507 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: this and contemplating like, oh, I really want to do this, 508 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: or vice versa, like I want to do this and 509 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this, and I feel like 510 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm having to feel pressure to do it, is that 511 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: there should be people around you who you can have 512 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: fruitful conversations and instead of them trying to convince you 513 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: what is what they think is right based on where 514 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: they're sitting in your life, because it's very different to 515 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: be in somebody's body and to be sitting across from 516 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: somebody's body, and so we can respect people's ability to 517 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: make good decisions. Also, good decisions don't mean it goes 518 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: the way as planned. 519 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And I think that's a definitely a good point. Like, 520 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 2: you know, my decision to want to do it this 521 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: way wasn't thought of, hey, if I do it this way, 522 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: it's it's going to work out the way that I 523 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: want it to. Yeah, but you know, just in the 524 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 2: back of my head, it was like doing it this way. 525 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: Hopefully throughout the process, I feel better and better that 526 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: I am about to make a great decision. And it's 527 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: been great so far. So you know, every day that 528 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: we have with you. And again, maybe this doesn't work 529 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: out for everyone that way, but you know, every day 530 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: that I've lived with you, like, I've felt like we've 531 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: gotten closer and more in love and all that good stuff. 532 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: So so again, that's when I set out to wanting 533 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 2: it to do it this way. That's exactly what I 534 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 2: had in my mind of if I do this and 535 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: I feel this way, like that's going to make me 536 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 2: make a good decision, I guess. And if I didn't 537 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: feel that way, you know, I would probably start questioning 538 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: it all more so. But but I don't feel like 539 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: I would ever have had that yeah otherwise, I mean, 540 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: and maybe I would have. Maybe it would have taken 541 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 2: more time to get to the point where I was like, 542 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: this is the person I want to spend the rest 543 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: of my life with. 544 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 3: Full disclosure. 545 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: I kind of got really upset with Patrick earlier today 546 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: because I asked him what exactly did I asked you? 547 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: I asked you, do you think we would still have 548 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: gotten engaged if we didn't live together? And I think 549 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: Patrick said like probably, You said probably, I don't know. 550 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: You said I don't. 551 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: Know, I don't know. 552 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: Maybe, and then You're like, I mean probably, and I 553 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: got very This. 554 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: Was also seven forty five in the morning, and my 555 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: eyes are not. No, it wasn't. It absolutely was not. 556 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: So I am bringing this up because I said my 557 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: perspective and Patrick was very wise and he said, well, 558 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: I can't answer this. This is hypothetical, like I don't 559 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: know what would have happened. I can't tell the future. 560 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: That isn't going to be the future. That's and that 561 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: made sense. But in my head I was thinking, well, 562 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: if we didn't live together, I feel like there could 563 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: have been a space where we would have gotten engaged 564 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: sooner because that anticipation for being together more often, or 565 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: that anticipation for that next commitment would have been larger. 566 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 1: And I'm somebody who I have to be really careful 567 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: about jumping into things because I can, you know. I mean, 568 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: that's I'm a seven on the Enneagram and I'm like, oh, 569 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: fun idea, or that would be exciting, and I don't 570 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: really think about a lot. So my point in saying 571 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: this is it's actually probably been a really good thing 572 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: for me to live with you for this reason alone. 573 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: That the anticipation of wanting that thing, whether it's living 574 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: with you or being committed to you or getting married 575 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: to you would have been so much stronger, and so 576 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: I could have made decisions or even made up stories 577 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: in my head and had this like rose colored glasses 578 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: on because I just want to do that next thing. 579 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,239 Speaker 1: Does that make sense how I'm saying that. Yeah, And 580 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: this has allowed it to I think although it looks 581 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: like we're moving faster, to me, it feels like it's 582 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: allowed us to slow down and not have to take 583 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: that jump of marriage, just to have some kind of 584 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: movement in the relationship. 585 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: And that's what's going on in your head in that situation. 586 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: I would also say that it probably would have taken 587 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 2: me longer to get to the point to pop the 588 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: question if we weren't living together, because, like I said, 589 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: when we started living together, you know, week by week, 590 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: month by month, you know, I felt we were growing 591 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: stronger and more together as a couple, which again led 592 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: me to the ultimate decisions like this is what I 593 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: want to do. You know, I'm ready to make the decision. 594 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: I'm ready to make a lifelong commitment. Maybe I'm wrong 595 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: about that, but but well we don't know. 596 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: But what we all well, what is in that space 597 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: is us not taking this step that five ten years 598 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: ago I would. 599 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: Have been like, I would never do. That could have. 600 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: Been really detrimental to us. And I wanted to point 601 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: that out because again, we're individual couples, So I don't 602 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: want anybody to take our story and then say, well, 603 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: this has to be my story. But you can see 604 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: how even for Patrick and I the decisions are right 605 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: for different reasons. It has helped me slow down and 606 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: it helped Patrick almost move forward, and I think that's 607 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: important to note. And so I share all of this, 608 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: and I had all of the stuff that I've talked 609 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: about today, share all of it to encourage everybody listening 610 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: to look at this as an individual decision for yourself 611 00:31:54,280 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: and also your relationship versus a culturally right decision, a 612 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: decision that is right for the religion that or the 613 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: faith that I believe in, or a decision that is 614 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: going to be approved by the most people in my 615 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,479 Speaker 1: family or my circle of friends. Everybody is going to 616 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: in situations like these, benefit in different ways from different 617 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: ways of doing these kinds of things. And so please, 618 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: please please don't read a book or listen to a 619 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: podcast or have a conversation with somebody who has an 620 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: agenda to get you to believe there's one right way. 621 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: My agenda is for you to get to a point 622 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: where you can really assess yourself and your own personality 623 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: and what your needs are, so then you can make 624 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: a decision for that human So again, I think this 625 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: topic is so controversial because obviously, well not obviously, it's 626 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: obvious to me and I think a lot of you 627 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: guys listening that there are so many things changing and 628 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: this is something that would be way more taboo years ago. 629 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: But think about when you look at, oh, when my 630 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: mom was a kid, or when my grandparents, think of 631 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: how many other things in the world have changed since then. 632 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: And yes, change in general is very scary and although 633 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: it can be good, but we have to look at that. 634 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: It's not just that people are, like I said in 635 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: the beginning, people are getting married later and less, and 636 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: they're living together more. 637 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 3: It's not just that there's so. 638 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: Many other things that are changing that are then impacting 639 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: those two things. And if you look at it that way, 640 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: it makes a lot more sense. Versus we're just throwing 641 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: out all of these ideals and values. 642 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 3: And this that and whatever. 643 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: As things shift and things change, we have to take 644 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: into account what that means for us, and sometimes that 645 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: means these other things change as well. So my hope 646 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: is that this conversation has been helpful in a multitude 647 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: of ways. And if you guys have any questions or 648 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: feedback or thoughts anything, you can send that to me. 649 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: If you have anything specific to this conversation or in 650 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: general in life, you can send them Katherine at you 651 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast dot com. If you do not and 652 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: you would like to follow me, you can do that 653 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: at Kat dot defada on Instagram and at you Need 654 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: Therapy Podcast. Thank you for everybody who sent in those 655 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: messages and the feedback on the question that I put 656 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: out today about this topic. I will most likely be 657 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: sharing those throughout this week, so you guys can see 658 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: some of those, But again remember those are very biased, 659 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: so I don't want you to see anybody else's response. 660 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: And again, Patrick and I stories as that's the right way, 661 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: and I have to do that. I really want you 662 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: guys to see how everybody gets to have an opinion 663 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: on what's right for them that's allowed to be different 664 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: from what's right from the person next to you. I 665 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: hope you guys have the day you need to have 666 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: I'll be back on Wednesday for couch talks. Would you 667 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: like to say anything. 668 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: Patrick, Thanks for having me on. You're welcome, all right, 669 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 3: Hi 670 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: Two