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Speaker 1: We returned the bastards in England. No, the verse from

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Speaker 1: that's my terrible English accent. Boy, we are both neither

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Speaker 1: of us are very good at this. I remember now

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Speaker 1: being reminded Island calling somebody a ball bag, how much better?

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Speaker 1: Garrett from the Dollar Piss and doing an English accent

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Speaker 1: is an Irish name. I think his mom is actually

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Speaker 1: English if I'm remembering the Dollarp episode that his mom

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Speaker 1: came on um or at least ethnically. I have a

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Speaker 1: friend who's ethnically British. It's a weird situation. His parents

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Speaker 1: you don't meet any of many of those, No, but

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Speaker 1: he has never been outside of the United States, was

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Speaker 1: born and raised here. But his parents are both English

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Speaker 1: who came here in like they're late twenties. So he

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Speaker 1: it's not many people like that. It's weird because he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have like he grew up in Texas, so he

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Speaker 1: like talks like most other Texas well, except for every

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Speaker 1: now in and he'll say like he doesn't say bathroom.

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Speaker 1: He says bathroom like there's there's all there's these little

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Speaker 1: bits where it's like, oh, I can tell that you, Like,

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Speaker 1: we're raised by somebody who didn't speak Texan. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: exclusively drove sobs most of the time that I knew

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Speaker 1: when we were younger. His dad had like thirty of

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Speaker 1: them taken apart on his lot. That's amazing. He's got

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Speaker 1: a jeep. Now. Last time, gare H Wilkerson, I think

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Speaker 1: that's his last name, but he's very Northern Irish, so

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Speaker 1: he would say stuff like ball bag. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I was like, dude, I love your sling. I got

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Speaker 1: a lot of ship rightfully, So for for by the

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Speaker 1: last time I did an Irish accent on this show.

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Speaker 1: But I will say some of my favorite moments in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: and I had another version of this in England is

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Speaker 1: like you get drunk with your friends and you try

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Speaker 1: each other's accents on. And the particular thing one of

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Speaker 1: my buddies who is uh Irish but grew up in

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Speaker 1: England for reason, and that we will be talking about

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Speaker 1: in this episode because that that happens to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in this period. There's a um But the

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Speaker 1: thing that he couldn't get over was the differences in

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Speaker 1: how we pronounced banana. So there was like a long

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Speaker 1: drunken conversation that would just be me saying banana too,

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Speaker 1: and then then him being like banana because we were

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Speaker 1: making fun of how the others. Yes, I could not

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Speaker 1: get over the banana, um banana. One of the real

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Speaker 1: joys of hanging out with people who speak English but

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Speaker 1: are not from the United States is making fun of

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Speaker 1: how you each pronounced the same words differently. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: remember I was trying to like tell one of my

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Speaker 1: like my my friend who's like, you know, born and

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Speaker 1: raised in London, but they're Punjabi Indian, you know, and

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Speaker 1: so obviously that's quite a quite a ride situation boys, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I kept saying, like why your spell stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: like what's this you for? Like, what's wrong this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: He was like he goes just as calm in the

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Speaker 1: most British way possible. He was just like, yo, it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: how like you keep telling me that we're spelling things wrong.

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Speaker 1: But the language is called English because it's from England.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, touche, touche, touche, I have no comeback,

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Speaker 1: and he just said, in the most British just as

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact ly, like, well, it's called English

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Speaker 1: because it's from England. And one of the things that

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Speaker 1: was always really interesting to me, is you know where

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Speaker 1: I grew up for a decent chunk of my like adolescence. Um,

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Speaker 1: the school that I went to in North Texas had

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Speaker 1: a really high population of people from the Indian subcontinent

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Speaker 1: because like their parents worked for Texas Instruments or for

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Speaker 1: Raytheon or something, um, and so they were people most

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Speaker 1: of them had been born in India but had come

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Speaker 1: over here pretty young, and they had learned English from Americans.

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Speaker 1: And then I went over to India where the people

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Speaker 1: that I was talking do who spoke English had learned

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Speaker 1: English from British people generally, and so and it's really

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, like how the how how differently people say

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Speaker 1: especially since as an American, like most of your contact

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Speaker 1: with people who speak English is the second language is

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Speaker 1: people who learned it from an American And it really

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Speaker 1: is like a different beast. And there's different types of like, um,

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Speaker 1: different idioms that people pick up and stuff, as as

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Speaker 1: as a second language speaker when they get taught, you

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Speaker 1: know by one of the when he picked me up,

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Speaker 1: when he picked us up from an airport, he was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen him. He was like, hey, you know

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Speaker 1: look look, look we're we're we're two brothers were Asian dudes.

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Speaker 1: I was like, all right, I walked by them dudes

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Speaker 1: three times because I'm like, hey, man, you said you

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Speaker 1: was Asian. Yeah, because we yeah, we use it differently

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Speaker 1: than they do over Yeah. He was like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: he goes, he goes. Yeah. Americans for some reason don't

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Speaker 1: think India is a part of Asia. Yeah, which is weird,

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Speaker 1: but didn't. Yeah. You look at a map and it's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's right in there. It's just the most British

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Speaker 1: just like condescend but nice way to say. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: because India is a part of Asia. Yeah, because it's

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Speaker 1: like you know how they share that giant land border

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Speaker 1: with China. Yeah, Asia, Like oh yeah, yeah, I guess,

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Speaker 1: I guess, I guess you're right. Yeah yeah right whatever

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Speaker 1: you guys are saying that wrong, Okay, So yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about this horrible crime against humanity, um, the

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Speaker 1: coming of the blight. This this potato mold and it's airborne,

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Speaker 1: Like this is a nasty fucker to hit you. And

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Speaker 1: now there's ways to deal with these now, Like I

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Speaker 1: think it's a copper sulfate solution that you can spray

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Speaker 1: on your tubers and stuff. There's people have like developed

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Speaker 1: ways since and obviously one of the better ways to

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Speaker 1: deal with it is to grow more than one kind

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Speaker 1: of potato, because there's that one kind of potato maybe vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: but another kind won't. And if you know, you can cross.

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Speaker 1: But whatever, there's there's options, but we didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of that. They are they do start to figure

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Speaker 1: them out, and in fact, there's some very smart people

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Speaker 1: when the blight hits who are starting to figure out that, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's from things you could spray on these. So it

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Speaker 1: it hits Ireland and it's it's obviously it's not great,

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Speaker 1: but six it doesn't hit that hard yet. Um there's

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Speaker 1: only six counties in Ireland that lose more than a

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Speaker 1: third of their crop, which is significant. It is devastating

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but it's not as bad

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Speaker 1: as it's going to get. Um. Now, what this does

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Speaker 1: mean though, and it all kind of compounds. So one

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Speaker 1: of the things about potatoes, I've been growing potatoes for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. I'm not an expert at it,

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Speaker 1: but one of the things that you do if you're

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Speaker 1: growing potatoes and you're not somebody you can just go

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Speaker 1: to a gardening store and pick up seed potatoes. Every

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Speaker 1: year is when you harvest potatoes, you set aside a

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Speaker 1: chunk of your harvest as seed for the next planting season,

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Speaker 1: and you don't eat them. You like keep them and

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Speaker 1: let them kind of chill in a cool, dry place

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Speaker 1: so that they you can plant them next year. Um

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Speaker 1: and generally the broadly a lot of factors can affect this,

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Speaker 1: but broadly speaking, for one pound of potatoes you plant,

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Speaker 1: you can get between five and ten pounds of yield

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Speaker 1: right at pends on a lot of factors. But that

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Speaker 1: that's kind of back of the envelope math. So usually

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Speaker 1: you might set aside like a third a quarter of

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Speaker 1: your harvests something like that as seed potatoes. Well, if

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Speaker 1: people are losing a third of the harvest, and we

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Speaker 1: as we have established, Irish farmers do not have extra

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Speaker 1: of anything, so you lose. And as a side note,

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Speaker 1: city boy here checking in first time caller on time listener, Um,

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Speaker 1: what's a potato seed? It's like a potato You could

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Speaker 1: just like if you were a potato, right, if you

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Speaker 1: were to have a bag You've had a bag of potatoes,

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Speaker 1: and like you leave rotting on the bottom of the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if they start rotting and get all like goopy, then

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Speaker 1: that's not good. But if they just start to usually

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Speaker 1: first what they'll do and it kind of depends on

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Speaker 1: how you store then, but they'll they'll sprout, right, You'll see,

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Speaker 1: like the ear, if you play those under like an

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Speaker 1: inch or two or so a dirt with like you know,

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Speaker 1: four or five inches underneath it, Um, it'll grow into

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Speaker 1: more potatoes. Um. Not an incredible crop, it's pretty cool. Now,

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Speaker 1: the one the potatoes you do buy in the grocery store,

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Speaker 1: they don't tend to your best off buying generally buying

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Speaker 1: seed potatoes because they're meant to actually grow. Whereas like

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch of compliment as a general rule, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you plant that if you if your potatoes start to

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Speaker 1: sprout and you throw them in the dirt, you'll get

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Speaker 1: some more potatoes. Um. But so part of part of

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Speaker 1: how they people survive in Ireland is you know, you

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Speaker 1: set aside this chunk of your crop for seed for

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Speaker 1: the next harvest season or for the next planting season.

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Speaker 1: But when they lose a third of their crop to

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Speaker 1: this plague, they have the same coloric needs they had

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Speaker 1: the year before, but they have less potatoes. And at

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Speaker 1: some point, when you start to get hungry, you're going

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Speaker 1: to dip into those seed potatoes, which are just as

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Speaker 1: they're fine. If they're normal potatoes, you can eat them.

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Speaker 1: But when you eat your seed potatoes, what are you

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Speaker 1: gonna do next year? You have no exact tato, or

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Speaker 1: at least you have It's yeah, and there's another problem.

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Speaker 1: Some of these seed potatoes get infected with the blight

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Speaker 1: and people don't realize it until they like go like

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Speaker 1: unseal it to go plant and they realize that, like

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Speaker 1: they don't have as much to plant, or they don't

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Speaker 1: have anything to plant. Um. But as a result of

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Speaker 1: all this, like the first year of the so called

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Speaker 1: of the so called potato famine, right, Um, the first

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Speaker 1: year of it is the least devastating, right because it

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Speaker 1: hasn't killed as much of the crop yet, and people

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Speaker 1: have because of these kind of seed potato stalks, they

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Speaker 1: have a little bit of like um, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of like wiggle room. The other thing they have is

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Speaker 1: the English government at this point is headed by a

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Speaker 1: guy named Robert peel Um and peel is not the

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Speaker 1: worst guy that there's going to be running the English

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Speaker 1: government in this period. There's a lot of criticisms of

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Speaker 1: what he did too, but he's he's we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: him in a second. Here. It is important that I

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Speaker 1: reiterate here as we talk about this famine, as we

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Speaker 1: talk about what's happening to these farmers in the desperation

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Speaker 1: they're entering. In Ireland has plenty of food to feed

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Speaker 1: everyone living in Ireland. The famine is not caused by

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Speaker 1: a lack of things that to eat that are being

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Speaker 1: grown on the island. It is caused by the failure

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Speaker 1: of a crop that causes a surge in food prices,

196
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Speaker 1: which puts avoiding starvation outside of the budget of most

197
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Speaker 1: Irish families. It is not that there isn't food, it's

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Speaker 1: that they can't afford not to starve. That is an

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Speaker 1: important distinction. Um At the time the famine started, one

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Speaker 1: quarter of all Irish grain crops were being exported. Three

201
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Speaker 1: fifths of the island's total agricultural output is being sold

202
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Speaker 1: outside of Ireland, So six of the food produced in

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Speaker 1: Ireland does not stay there. Yeah, yes, so yeah. During

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Speaker 1: the years of the famine, the population of Ireland at

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Speaker 1: the start is about nine million, and Ireland is growing

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Speaker 1: enough food to fill an estimate to feed an estimated

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Speaker 1: eighteen million people. So again, when people say you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: call it a potato famine, that's because there shouldn't have

209
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Speaker 1: been a famine. Shouldn't have been There's plenty of food,

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Speaker 1: There's ample food. There's plenty of food. Yeah, when like,

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Speaker 1: so I'm working on I just did it, recorded two

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Speaker 1: of them. Uh, sort of like for politics, kind of

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Speaker 1: like an economic version of hood politics. I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: just calling it like how much of dollar cost and

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Speaker 1: really just this idea of how inflation and commodities, goods

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Speaker 1: and service, like how that stuff kind of works like

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Speaker 1: and and and what you're explaining right now, to where

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Speaker 1: it's like essentially like my caloric intake, which is the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of like my cost of living, like it hasn't changed.

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Speaker 1: There's just not enough stuff anymore that is available for

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Speaker 1: me to consume because all the stuff that I have,

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Speaker 1: I don't really own. I gotta give it to somebody else.

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Speaker 1: So it makes for a situation to where it's like

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Speaker 1: if I can only if I only have thirty of

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Speaker 1: what I'm producing to work with. But my thirty percent

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Speaker 1: just became fifteen percent. I don't I don't end up

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Speaker 1: being less hungry. Nope, you know what I'm saying. I

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Speaker 1: just have to make less last longer. But that's impossible

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Speaker 1: because it costs more than it did when I had more. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what's happening here, kind of in in broad

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Speaker 1: um And and most of the food that is being

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Speaker 1: grown in Ireland. Then while there is this famine developing,

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Speaker 1: most of the food being produced in Ireland is being

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Speaker 1: shipped out of the island as soon as it's harvested.

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Speaker 1: One observer at the time noted a ship sailing into

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Speaker 1: an Irish port during the famine years with a cargo

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Speaker 1: of grain was sure to meet six ships sailing out

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Speaker 1: with a similar cargo. So like ships bringing in food

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Speaker 1: aid are seeing larger amounts of food leave the island

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Speaker 1: for export. It's got to be maddening, Yes, it is.

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Speaker 1: It is maddening. This will become part of the justification

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Speaker 1: for decades of insurgency and rebellion. It really does piss

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Speaker 1: some people off. Um So, the obvious at question you're

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Speaker 1: probably asking here is couldn't they have just stopped or

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Speaker 1: reduced exports and thus kept food prices low enough that

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Speaker 1: people wouldn't have starved to death. And the answer to

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Speaker 1: that question is yes, it would have been extremely easy

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Speaker 1: to do that. It had been fine, it would have

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Speaker 1: been very easy. But food exports were how Irish farmers

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Speaker 1: paid their rent. So if you stop food from being exported,

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Speaker 1: you would have to stop evictions too, because otherwise you

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Speaker 1: would have people who could not pay their rent and

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Speaker 1: landlords who weren't allowed to kick them off their land,

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Speaker 1: and that would be violating the rights of the landlords.

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Speaker 1: So nothing new. There's nothing new. Bro. Since the English

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Speaker 1: government is not willing to do that, they decide the

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Speaker 1: next best option is to bring more food into the country,

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Speaker 1: which is producing enough food, but bring in worse food,

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Speaker 1: cheaper and lower quality food, and put enough of it

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Speaker 1: onto the market. Again, they're not trying to they don't

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Speaker 1: when they're importing food aid. It's not that they need

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Speaker 1: to bring in enough food to feed people. It's that

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Speaker 1: they need to bring in enough food to reduce the

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Speaker 1: price of food that people can afford it, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that aid organizations stuff can afford it, and whatnot,

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of a lot of the way people

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Speaker 1: get aid food is like the Catholic organizations will buy

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Speaker 1: up a bunch and then distribute it and stuff and

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Speaker 1: like one of the things we're not really going to

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Speaker 1: get into it a lot. But like the Catholic clergy

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Speaker 1: in Ireland. And there's a lot of criticisms to make

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Speaker 1: of the church in Rome, but in Ireland the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church clergy is supported by the people who live there, um,

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Speaker 1: and they do. The Catholic clergy in Ireland do a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of aid work to try to deal with this,

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Speaker 1: whereas the Protestant clergy, who are paid for by like

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Speaker 1: Irish taxes essentially right, the Irish is supposed to are

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Speaker 1: paying for the Protestant faith to an extent, are not

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Speaker 1: doing that. Um. Not to say that none of them do,

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Speaker 1: because there are in fact Protestant ministers who do quite

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Speaker 1: a bit. But like in broad this is one of

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Speaker 1: the things that seems happened. It contributes to like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the anger and hatred that's building in this

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Speaker 1: period between Catholic and Protestant. Right. Um, So the peel

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Speaker 1: offerment decides, all right, we can't forgive rent and stop exports.

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Speaker 1: So let's just bring in shitty food, right kind of

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Speaker 1: that's the idea. It just seems like like, Okay, if

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Speaker 1: this you're your purposefully choosing the hardest way to do this,

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Speaker 1: ye like just well, but even if guys like they

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Speaker 1: it's the hardest way for the people who have to

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Speaker 1: live on the island, it is the easiest way for

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Speaker 1: British politicians who then do not have to fight a

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Speaker 1: politically powerful class of landlords as much as much as

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Speaker 1: much so. The thing that the food that they, specifically

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Speaker 1: the people government brings in is what they call Indian corn,

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Speaker 1: and this is corn grown in the United States. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the Irish are growing corn to the Indian coin they're

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Speaker 1: importing is a course, is a courser and harsher grade

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Speaker 1: of corn than the Irish are used to. It has

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Speaker 1: to be milled in order to make it edible. You

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Speaker 1: have to mill it in ways that they had not

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Speaker 1: been They didn't need to mill the corn the corn

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Speaker 1: that was grown on the island that they couldn't easily

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Speaker 1: do with the existing equipment. A lot of workarounds have

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Speaker 1: to be found in order to make this corn they're

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Speaker 1: importing edible for Irish people. Um, they have to soak

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Speaker 1: it for like days to make it soft enough. Like.

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Speaker 1: One of the problems is that when people start really starving,

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Speaker 1: they won't soak this stuff enough and it'll tear up

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Speaker 1: their stomach. Some people die because like their bodies can't

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Speaker 1: handle how how coarse and harsh this corn is while

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Speaker 1: they're starving, right, Um, but still importing this Indian corn.

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Speaker 1: When when the Peel government does this and they sell

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Speaker 1: it cheap, they don't give it away, but they sell

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Speaker 1: it very cheap and fairly small quantities. This does enough

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Speaker 1: to lower prices that a lot. It stops mass death

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Speaker 1: in the first year or so of famine. This is

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Speaker 1: broadly speaking Tim pat Coogan, and there's some historians that

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Speaker 1: disagree with him. There are people who are a lot

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Speaker 1: more critical of Peele. Cougan's attitude is that by doing this,

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Speaker 1: Peel stops a lot of people from dying right away.

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Speaker 1: That this is a broadly effective aid strategy. Um and

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Speaker 1: I yeah, we'll talk little bit more about that later. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, this starts. This is not popular within English politics,

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Speaker 1: and in fact that kicks off what is maybe at

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Speaker 1: the time the most vicious political fight in like modern

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Speaker 1: English parliamentary history. Um, it was perfectly legal for government,

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Speaker 1: for the government to buy corn and sell it in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: but selling it cheaply enough that the Irish could afford

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Speaker 1: to consume it could be seen as a violation of

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Speaker 1: what are called the Corn Laws. Now, these are first

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Speaker 1: put in place in eighteen fifteen. There are a set

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Speaker 1: of tariffs meant to protect English farmers from being ruined

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Speaker 1: by cheap foreign grain. And the effect of these laws

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Speaker 1: it's not just about corn. It's about the price of corn, barley,

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Speaker 1: wheat and other grains. But the purposes too. So it

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Speaker 1: ensures that grain only gets more expensive in Ireland in

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Speaker 1: order to protect English farmers from being ruined by imports

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Speaker 1: of cheap Irish grain, right or cheap foreign grain. Right. Like,

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Speaker 1: that's the purpose of these corn laws. They are they

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Speaker 1: keep food very expensive in Ireland, but they ensure profits

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Speaker 1: for the English are kept at a certain level. Um.

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Speaker 1: To me, this again, this goes back to being like

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Speaker 1: you choosing the most complicated way to solve this problem,

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Speaker 1: because I'm like you, just oh now I can't get okay,

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Speaker 1: so we gotta okay. So you won't let me, you

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Speaker 1: won't let them eat what they grow, so I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to take what they grow and then give them

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Speaker 1: worse versions. They're gonna have to do all this other

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Speaker 1: stuff to eat. But then you're mad that I'm lowering

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Speaker 1: the price because you can't sell yours like this is

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Speaker 1: so listen uh. When but my daughter was younger, she

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Speaker 1: did not want her door to be shut to her bedroom.

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Speaker 1: But she also didn't want our door to be shut

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Speaker 1: to our bedroom. But she didn't like the light coming

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Speaker 1: out of our bedroom, nor did she the temperature from

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Speaker 1: the living room changing. So her solution was everyone like

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Speaker 1: the temperature in her room wasn't happy. She wouldn't happy

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Speaker 1: temperature in the room. So her solution was, everyone else

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Speaker 1: shut the door, and I can leave mine open where

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Speaker 1: I'm like, here's a simple solution, baby, shut your door

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Speaker 1: and all the problems are solved. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: see our light, you don't have to experience the temperature

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Speaker 1: in the living room, you don't have to hear the

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Speaker 1: sounds coming from outside. Just shut your door. And her

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Speaker 1: solution was, how about everybody shut? Everybody else shut their doors.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, baby, we're not gonna all We're

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Speaker 1: not gonna do that just because you won't shut your

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Speaker 1: just shut your door. It'll be fine. So to me,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is what this is what I'm picturing.

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, fam, lower your rent, just lower your rent,

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Speaker 1: and the problem is solved. We'll talk about We're about

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Speaker 1: to talk about why they don't do that, but it

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Speaker 1: is worth noting that like one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: they opt for this coarser kind of seen as like

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Speaker 1: worst grade of corn is that maze is not being

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Speaker 1: which is the kind of corn that like they're they're bringing,

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Speaker 1: because there's types of corn, but like the kind of

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Speaker 1: corn that they call Indian corn is not being sold

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Speaker 1: by English farmers and so it's not it doesn't fall

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Speaker 1: under these corn laws. That's why Peels. Yeah, that's why

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Speaker 1: Peel is able to get away with it. Um. But

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Speaker 1: again he also wants to Peel wants to get rid

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Speaker 1: of these corn laws in order to make it easier

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Speaker 1: to bring food aid into Ireland, which pistoles is drives

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Speaker 1: people insane. There is vicious resistance to them. And to

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Speaker 1: understand the resistance to this plan, we have to talk

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Speaker 1: about Lazai fair capitalism. Um. You do because people that

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Speaker 1: are mad that you can't sell at a certain price.

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Speaker 1: But hey, numbnuts, you're selling to your no one can

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Speaker 1: afford your price point. Well, so I don't understand. What

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Speaker 1: the hell, why what are you talking about? Anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're about to get into that. So the most foundational

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Speaker 1: mind of this school of thought is an economist named

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Speaker 1: Adam Smith. UM and Smith believed that, in short, that

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Speaker 1: healthy economies are made up of individuals who are working

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Speaker 1: for their own self interest, and that this benefit society

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Speaker 1: by creating competition in the free market. Right, we're all

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Speaker 1: broadly familiar with these, Yeah, yeah, we all. Smith's most

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Speaker 1: influential work, The Wealth of Nations, is published in seventeen

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Speaker 1: seventy six. His work is very influential to the people

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Speaker 1: generally generally referred to as the founding fathers of the

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Speaker 1: United States, and he was very much beloved by English politicians.

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Speaker 1: UM in eighteen twenty one, a group of them formed

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Speaker 1: the Political Economy Club to discuss his ideas and to

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Speaker 1: try to come to more conclusions about the principles of

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Speaker 1: political economy. Right, people are in this period starting to

408
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Speaker 1: think about economics and kind of a more scientific sense,

409
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Speaker 1: and the Political Economy Club it's actually today is the

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Speaker 1: oldest economics association in the world. Um, so this is

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Speaker 1: one of the first places where people are really trying

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Speaker 1: to like put together organized theories of how economic life

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Speaker 1: and policy works. In eighteen forty five, when all this

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Speaker 1: starts to happen, um, this is where some of the

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Speaker 1: most influential parliamentarians and government officials in the British Empire

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Speaker 1: would go to like shoot the ship out of what

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Speaker 1: should be done in terms of economic policy. And these

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Speaker 1: guys are all in very strong agreement that England should

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Speaker 1: not intervene directly in the famine in a way that

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Speaker 1: would allow people to get Irish people to get food

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Speaker 1: without paying. Right, you cannot funk with the free market,

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Speaker 1: that's their attitude. You cannot make any do anything that

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Speaker 1: you do that interferes with the free market. It would

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Speaker 1: be worse than just letting people start to death. That's

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Speaker 1: the i That is the conclusion, broadly speaking, that these

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Speaker 1: folks all come to. As Club member Jeremy Bentham wrote,

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Speaker 1: quote lazy fair in short, should be the general practice.

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Speaker 1: Every departure, unless required by some great good, is a

429
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: certain evil. Now you might take from that that, like,

430
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: while stopping a lot of people from starving is a

431
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: great good, but he does not feel that way, and

432
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: that's what we're about to get into. Tim pat Coogan

433
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 1: writes a central figure in the debate was a classical economist,

434
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: Nassau Williams, Sr. The first professor of political economy at

435
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 1: Oxford University, preached, among other things, that it was not

436
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: the duty of the state to alleviate poverty that came

437
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: through the fault of the individual. English poor law owed

438
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: a great deal to his theories, and during the famine,

439
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: wig apologists would see to it that the idea of

440
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: Irish culpability for Irish poverty would become widespread among the

441
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: British public. Lazy beds was used as a term of

442
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: derision to indicate that the Irish even brought their laziness

443
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: to bear on their potato cultivation. Nassau Senior criticized Irish

444
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: landlords for neglecting the duty for the performance of which

445
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: Providence created them, the keeping down population. So Nasa was

446
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: like this number one, we can't do anything. We shouldn't

447
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: do anything here. But also this is only a problem

448
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: because these landlords did not do enough to make it

449
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: impossible for Irish people to breed. Yes, so listen like

450
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: I am. Like when we started the first episode of this,

451
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm ready to be triggered, and now

452
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: I'm at this trigger because we're still to this day

453
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: trying to explain to people how dumb they saying when

454
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: they say this um because I, like I say all

455
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: the time. In my credentialing program as becoming a California

456
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: high school teacher, the third part was you have to

457
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 1: take you have to pass this test on economic experience

458
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: e high school and I failed it three times one

459
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: three times because I understood the principles, but I didn't

460
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: understand the the vocabulary, Like I just didn't know the words,

461
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, which was again some of

462
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: the genesis of the politics where it's like I know

463
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, I just don't know how to

464
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 1: talk about what I'm talking about. But but some of

465
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 1: it was because your theory is absurd to me, and

466
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: I'm like the idea that because because look at and

467
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: what you just read. The founding principle is the government

468
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: shouldn't solve a problem created by the individual the but

469
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: the individual didn't create the problem. The government did. And

470
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: that's and That's that's why I'm like, I don't understand

471
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: your principle. You made the problem, So how are you

472
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: your free market? Ain't all is already not free in

473
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: the first place you created? Like, so I'm just like,

474
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: I don't understand how this is a prince. How is

475
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: this a four three hundred year old principle when the

476
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: foundation axiom of it don't exist. So I'm always like,

477
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't that. So I think whenever I had to

478
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: like answer questions about this in school, I would be like,

479
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: but it don't make no what you're saying don't make sense,

480
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: you know. I'm like, just here's the thing though, Like, yes,

481
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: we can say obviously, the problems that people are saying

482
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: or is the fall to the Irish people are like

483
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: problems as the result of the policies the state has

484
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: enacted in this imperial government has enacted uh, And it's

485
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: not their fault that they are suffering. That is not

486
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: the attitude of these intellectuals who are This is way

487
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: prior to the development of like prosperity Gospel and that

488
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. The same idea is feed into it.

489
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: This idea. It's like the same if you have money,

490
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: if you're doing well, it's because God wants you to be.

491
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: And if you're impoverished and you're suffering, it's because you

492
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: have done something in morals that has caused God to

493
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: and which is like even even with the prosperity Ship,

494
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, the the oldest manuscript in the

495
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: in the in the Bible is Job, and Job is

496
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: shooting down that. The whole point of that that book

497
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: is to shoot down that idea. I mean, I can't

498
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: think of anything that matters less in terms of public

499
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: religion than what's actually in the Bible. It seems as though,

500
00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: why would that matter reading what I read, because even

501
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 1: like this book is basically saying the principle you just

502
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: said is wrong. It seems like it seems like Jesus

503
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: of Nazareth probably would not have been a big lazy

504
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: fair economics to I don't think you would like me

505
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: back into the past. But I'm saying, it's just it

506
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: just and it's like this you feel like, I mean,

507
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: I always felt like even in discussing this stuff, it's

508
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: just like you made the comparison to like the plight

509
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: of black and brown people in indigenous people in the

510
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: in in America saying that like, well, y'all lazy y'all

511
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: can't get this stuff that you got the same opportunities

512
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: where And it's like, are y'all serious, Do y'all remember

513
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: the law y'all made? Like what do you you understand?

514
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: You you understand you made those laws. So how are

515
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: you saying, like, I don't God made about principle? You know?

516
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 1: And if I if I know one thing about Jesus

517
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: of Nazareth, it's that he would never have given free

518
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: food to people. Apparently that's what I'm saying he did

519
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: repeatedly in the Bible. That's not a part of the gospels. Yeah,

520
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: she happened. Jesus set up of a fish stand where

521
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: he sold fish and chips for you know, a tidy

522
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 1: pro that everybody there was legal citizens, and then he

523
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: reinvested the profits into purchasing apartment houses, which he used

524
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: in order to fund the startup of blood testing company

525
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: called I don't know why I took this to the

526
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: thorns direction. Um, that's an amazing spin anyway, it's fun.

527
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: So as ho, Senior, this this guy who is this

528
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: major proponent of las A fair economics in this in

529
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: this economics club, Um was in agreement. Like one of

530
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: the other dudes who was prominent in this club is

531
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: a fellow you've probably heard of named Thomas Malthus. Um,

532
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: we should probably talk about malthas someday he he deserves

533
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: an episode of his own. But but Malthus is the

534
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: first intellectual um who really expounds upon the idea that

535
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: overpopulation causes famine. Right. Thus, if a famine occurs anywhere,

536
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: it is because of overpopulation, and if you take steps

537
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: to alleviate that famine, all you will be doing is

538
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: ensuring that overpopulation gets worse. And so you should not

539
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: take steps. You should let the famine run its course, right,

540
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: otherwise you're just gonna make the problem worse. Now, as

541
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: we have established the famine, this is not the result

542
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: of overpopulation right at all. Um. Because again, as the

543
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: Irish population does triple over the course about a century.

544
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: But economic they're they're they're the the amount of food

545
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: they are producing also increases pretty massively, right, they are

546
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: growing plenty of food. Um. But mauth Is his idea

547
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: is that the work, it is the responsibility, the moral

548
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: responsibility of the working class to not breed too quickly,

549
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: and if they breed too quickly. It's nobody's job to

550
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: take care of them. Right. Mauth Is famously said this

551
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: when discussing the plight of poor men. Quote. If he

552
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: cannot get subsistence from his parents, on whom he has

553
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: a just demand, has no claim of right, He has

554
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: no claim of right to the smallest portion of food,

555
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: and in fact, has no business to be where he is.

556
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: And what Mauthis is saying here is that, like the

557
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: only people who owe you anything of your parents, right,

558
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: and you can ask them for food and they've got

559
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: to give it to you, but you have no right

560
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: to exist inherently, and you certainly have no right to food.

561
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah now now, now gone hand met him cucumbers you

562
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: just grew for me, Not that exactly. And this is

563
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: part of what makes it so messed up, Like it

564
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: would be messed up if he was just saying this

565
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: to like starving refugees, but he is saying this to

566
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: the people growing the food as he's much as he's

567
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: much Yeah, as he's h tell you, bro, you shouldn't

568
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: had autumn kids. Let me get that tomato. Oh that

569
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: looks good. Yeah, yeah, that the tomato you just grew for.

570
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: But that's my land though, so like I mean and

571
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Malthi's there's this other because he's he's also very specifically

572
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: anti Irish. UM. He argues that because of how close

573
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: Ireland and England are, England is always a threat of

574
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: poor Irish people like flooding into England and draining the

575
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: economy by driving down wages and fucking up trade. Right.

576
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: Just history, so many historical experts are just there's the

577
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: same kind of yeah, like you've got a million people

578
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: saying the same thing today about different groups of people,

579
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: but it's always the same adult welfare about It's just

580
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: just the same argument. And alpis maintained quote, the land

581
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: in Ireland is infinitely more people than in England, and

582
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: to give full effect to the natural resources of the country,

583
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: a great part of the population should be swept from

584
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: the soil. So you you see these people there, it's

585
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: not just that like they've built a system that is

586
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: leading to famine. There's a conscious understanding that they want

587
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: to depopulate Ireland through policy. Um. Another big advocate of

588
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: this UH is a fellow named um Edmund Burke um

589
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: and and and Edmund Burke is an irish Man now

590
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: he's a he's a wealthy Irish person, um. But he

591
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: he's also against government intervention in this this growing famine, um.

592
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: And his basic attitude is that, like, you shouldn't intervene,

593
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: have the government intervened when there's a problem. Quote, it

594
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: is not by breaking the laws of commerce, which are

595
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: the laws of nature and consequently the laws of God,

596
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: that we are to place our hope of softening the

597
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: divine displeasure to remove any calamity under which we suffer.

598
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: So Burke's attitude is, if there's a famine, if there's

599
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: any kind of problem that a population is suffering under

600
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: our economy, that is the will of God. And if

601
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: the government steps into help people, that is a violation

602
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: of Like you are, you are sitting against God. You're

603
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: sitting against the God of the universe. I just I

604
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: just don't understand what God wanted them to eat. They've beaten,

605
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't. Yeah, I'm just like, what

606
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: what pages? What page? Alone? You know what I'm saying, YEA,

607
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: where did you find that one? What page? We are?

608
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: I know, I thought we was all yeah, yeah, I

609
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: don't know what chapter is this? Edmund Burke. By the way,

610
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: is the dude commonly credited with the quote you'll you'll

611
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: see this on like every Holocaust movie or something that

612
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: came out in like the nineties. The only thing necessary

613
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: for the triumph of evil is for goodman to do nothing. Um. Now,

614
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: he never said that. It was probably from John Stewart Mill,

615
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: although he never said exactly those words. It's one of those,

616
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: you know how, like nine of the things that Thomas

617
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: Jefferson gets quoted for saying, We're never said by Thomas Jefferson. Whatever,

618
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: It's one of those. It's one of those quotes. Um.

619
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: But anyway, he kind of sucked. Um. Not not a

620
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: cool dude in my opinion, Edmund Burke. Another guy who

621
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 1: sucked and loved himself some lazi fair economics was Charles Travellion. Now, okay,

622
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: this is probably the single most famous name associated with

623
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: the Great Hunger in Ireland. Um. There is a song

624
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: called the Fields of ath and Ride that is today

625
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: it's for whatever reason, it's become like popular with a

626
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: couple of different football teams. But it's a song about

627
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: the Great Hunger. It's a song about like a dude

628
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: who tries to steal um food. Basically that's owned by

629
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: the government in order defeat his starling, starving family, and

630
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: he gets forced into transportation. He gets shipped away to Australia. Um.

631
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: It's very sad song, but it mentions Travali in specifically,

632
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: and he is kind of he is the face of

633
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: the English causes of the famine in Ireland in a

634
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: lot of ways. Now this is not entirely fair, not

635
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: because Trevalion deserves less shipped than he gets, but because

636
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: a lot more people had to come together to make this.

637
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: But like he's all he's absolutely a monster here, don't

638
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: get me wrong. Um. So again, Um, he's a central

639
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: enough figure that I think we should peel back a

640
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: little bit and I'm gonna give you an overview of

641
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: his life before we continue. So, Sir Charles Edward Trevellion,

642
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,959
Speaker 1: first Baronet was born on April two, eighteen o seven,

643
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: in Ponton, England, which is probably pronounced something like Terry

644
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: or whatever, but like fuck it. His father was a

645
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: clergyman um, and his family had ancient noble origins in Cornwall.

646
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: His mother was also from a fancy family. They were

647
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: very very rich. Um. They did not get this because

648
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: his dad was in the clergy. Their family money comes

649
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: from slave dealing in Granada. Um yeah, good stuff, good stuff,

650
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: chuckie chuckie t um. So he was educated locally before

651
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: his family used some of them slave dollars to send

652
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: his ask to charter House School in central London. He

653
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: did well enough there that he gets admission to Haileybury,

654
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: which is the East India Company's training college. So the

655
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: British East India Company has like a college which I

656
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: think Amazon dot Com is like four months away from

657
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: doing that. Um yeah. And while Travalian is at hailey

658
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: Berry learning how to work for the East India Company,

659
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: one of his teachers is Thomas Malthus. So he graduates

660
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: or I don't know if he's graduated, but he leaves

661
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: hailey Berry at eighteen and he gets sent to India

662
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: to study at another company college where he learns And

663
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: this is one of those things that's interesting about him

664
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: as as British administrators in India go, he's actually like

665
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: pretty plugged into the culture. He learns several he's fluent

666
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: in several dialects of Hindi um, which is impressive, not

667
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: an easy thing to do. Um. And he's given a

668
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: post in Delhi in eighteen seven. I found a right

669
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: up on him for the Irish news agency RTE, which

670
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: notes Trevillian had a very successful career in India, including

671
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: famously denouncing one of his superiors for bribery, a case

672
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: which was held and led to the subsequent dismissal of

673
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: Sir Edward Colebrook in eighteen twenty nine. This event established

674
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: his credentials as a fearless and opinionated public servant who

675
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: was not afraid to challenge his master's He was later

676
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: appointed to the Political Department of the Government of India,

677
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: working closely with the reformist Lord Bentwick, the Governor General

678
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: of India, who later said of him that man is

679
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: almost always on the right side and every question. And

680
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: it is well that he is so, for he gives

681
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: a most confounded deal of trouble when he happens to

682
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: take the wrong one. So he is a principal man.

683
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: He is very anti corruption, but he is also kind

684
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: of incapable of seeing himself as being wrong. Yeah, I

685
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: was like, what a what an interesting quote about a person.

686
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: You want him to be more of like a goblin

687
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: than he is in his earlier life, But he's not there,

688
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: he's actually probably more understanding of Indian people and like

689
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: injustices being done to them than he is to what's

690
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: going to happen to the Irish, which is not a

691
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: unique story. Weirdly enough, it happens sometimes. It's bizarre. Just yeah,

692
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's so yeah, it's it's like there's

693
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: racism in both cases, right, There's they're races against Indians,

694
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: but they're different kinds of racism, and there's kind of

695
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: more of a like the the the Indians are like,

696
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: are are kind of like our children, and like we

697
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: have to take care of them, and they're they're like

698
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: our beloved little like kids basically white man's whereas the

699
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: Irish or these like violent quarrel quarrelsome like uh monsters

700
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: kind of at least that's not entirely accurate. Like there's

701
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: like there's different kinds of racism at work, right, and

702
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: so a guy like Travelli In is probably a lot

703
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: more understanding of problems that that Indian people are encountering. Right,

704
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: That's why he's so anti corruption within the company that

705
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: he will be about what's happening in Ireland. Um, but

706
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: you know who's not racist. No, I don't. Actually we

707
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: don't know who at all who's not racist? I mean

708
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 1: you mean YouTube. I think it's a good safe safe

709
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: I would say, really, if you want to be safe

710
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: the products and services that support this podcast, because as

711
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: as as products, they have no minds of their own

712
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: and are thus incapable of the intentionality necessary for racism.

713
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: You know, they do not have the institutional power to

714
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: act any forces upon based upon their prejudice. It's fair

715
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: to say that a mattress cannot be racist. But the

716
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol, the Washington now that said, is a

717
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway patrol of the authority to enact on

718
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 1: their thoughts. But if it's a mattress, you can feel

719
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: confident knowing that that mattress will never commit a hate crime.

720
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: Probably safe. Maybe I'm not going to say the same

721
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: about oh we're back, so um yeah. The perfect example

722
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: of like how two things too opposing things can be

723
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: true about a person, you know what I'm saying, Like

724
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: that which I'm finding so much more the more that

725
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: I understand, like grow up and just become a more

726
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: mature adult, just like this idea of like you can

727
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: in in one part of your life, be understanding, welcoming,

728
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and kind and at the

729
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: same time of vicious monster. And it's like it's not

730
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: it's not that you're protecting it hiding one side of you.

731
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: It's just you're both. And it's like, like you say,

732
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: like this the type of like racism that shows up

733
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: in a person like that, which is difficult when you

734
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: want to do when you want to make history be

735
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: like comic books where you're One of the best examples

736
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: of this is if you look at like if you

737
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: you can find quotes from some of the Americans, and

738
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm assuming the same thing exist in some of the

739
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: Russi and sources of people who liberated concentration camps. And

740
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: we're also pretty anti Semitic, at least prior to that point.

741
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: And like there was like a peard like Patton wrote

742
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: some like weird because he was like had some real

743
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: regressive attitudes towards Jewish people. But it also people could

744
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: be capable of being racist and also look at Auschwitz

745
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: and go what the fun But but that right, like

746
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: because human beings contained multitudes anyway. Um, So Charles Travalli

747
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: in um broadly speaking, one of the better employees of

748
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: the British East India Company, probably from the perspective of

749
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are indigenous Indians. Not to

750
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: again we're summing up a lot of history here, but

751
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: but broadly speaking, not like not corrupt or anything like that. Certainly,

752
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: So he marries this this broad Hannah McCauley, who was

753
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: the daughter of one of the men who had helped

754
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: to abolish slavery in the British Empire, which is like,

755
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: if your family money comes from slave money, that's a

756
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: nice way of of morally divvying up your inheritance, right,

757
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, marry somebody who helped en slavery. That's good. Um.

758
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: And the two seem to love living on the subcontinent,

759
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: so I I you get the feeling they probably would

760
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: have been happy staying there for the rest of their careers.

761
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: But in eighteen thirty eight they go back to have

762
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: a vacation in England. And like, when you do that

763
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: working for the company, it's like you're you're gone for

764
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: a couple of years, right, because it ain't it's not

765
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: easy to get to England in the eighteen forties. You

766
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: don't like pop back for a holiday. Um, So they

767
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: go back in eighteen thirty eight, and actually in eighteen forty,

768
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: rather than go back to India, he gets a job

769
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: as the Assistant Secretary to the Treasury Um so again

770
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: eighteen forty, not long before the potato blight's kind ahead.

771
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: So he does a bunch of stuff while he's in

772
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: that job. In those first kind of like five years,

773
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: he reduces corruption. He one of the things he does

774
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,479
Speaker 1: is he creates some reforms government. Civil service jobs before

775
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: travalion are heavily based on like who knows who, and

776
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: who your family is and who your friends are, and

777
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: he's a big part of actually changing that so that

778
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: there's legitimate competition for civil service jobs, which is probably good. Um. Again,

779
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: the civil service in this case is a ministering a

780
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: British empire, so you could argue he's just making this

781
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: horrible engine of blood work a bit better, which is

782
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: fair to say to um. But the thing obviously that

783
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: he's going to go down in history for doing is

784
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: the fact that because he's the Assistant Treasury Secretary or whatever,

785
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: he is effectively the management the guy in charge of

786
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: the government's purse strict for any kind of relief efforts

787
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: in Ireland. He's going to be the dude in charge

788
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: of of of that. He's going to basically be the

789
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: point man for Irish relief UM, even though there is

790
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: like there's a relief agency and he's not heading that,

791
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: but he's like, you know, he's the money man essentially. UM.

792
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: His primary concerns then when it came, when this, when this,

793
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: when the potato crops start to fail, when people start

794
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: to go hungry. His primary concern when he's looking at

795
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: AID is to limit British financial exposure in funding relief

796
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: for starving people. UM. He also wants to be the

797
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: fact that he's anti corruption. He's really obsessed with the

798
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: fact that people might get AID that they don't deserve. UM.

799
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: That like government funds might go to people who are

800
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: like conning the government out of it. UM, which is

801
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: like not a non issue, right, like a lot of

802
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: COVID money like got Condata people like yeah, yeah, yeah,

803
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: you should care about that. But him carrying it is

804
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: part of what leads him to adopt this really lazi

805
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: fair economic policy UM towards famine relief, because the safest

806
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: way to make sure nobody scams AID money is for

807
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: them to not be aid money. Yeah, yeah, it's the

808
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: it's the same, Robert, it's all the same. That's the yeah. Yeah,

809
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: And like we're not going to get into this a lot,

810
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: but like one of the characteristics of this period is

811
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: like they pass work schemes because you can't just give

812
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: people money to take care of themselves. They have to

813
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: work for it, and so they have. But for a

814
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: variety of complex reasons, having people do things that would

815
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: actually have improved life or infrastructure in Ireland is not popular.

816
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: So a lot of the aid schemes take the form

817
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: of paying people to build roads to nowhere. A lot

818
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,479
Speaker 1: of dumb ship gets done. Do that, Yeah, let's build

819
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 1: a road. We don't need a road, no one needs

820
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere. A bunch of dumb sh

821
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: it happens like that. Um so because of men like these,

822
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 1: like all of these guys, we've gone over Peel again.

823
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: This Prime Minister who does the Indian corn deal, he

824
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: has to be really careful with all this stuff. So

825
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: again he's able to avoid running a foul of the

826
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: corn laws. With this initial he imports a hundred thousand

827
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: pounds sterling worth of corn, and he's able to avoid

828
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: running a foul of the corn laws um, and it's

829
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: worth noting in terms of how easy it would have

830
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: been to stop massive starvation and death. The loss of

831
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: the potato crop in Etive is estimated at three and

832
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: a half million pounds. A hundred thousand pounds worth of

833
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: imported corn is able to stop mass famine that year.

834
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: It does not take a lot, like it does not

835
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: take a ton um. But Peel's actions cause outrage among

836
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: his fellow Conservatives. He had himps to repeal the corn

837
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: laws because again he's like, this isn't going to stop

838
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: after a year. We we have to like take some

839
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: more proactive steps. And the resistance to this is so

840
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: titanic that he retires in December of eighteen forty five.

841
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: He's like, I can't, I can't get anywhere with this,

842
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: Like this is nuts. The Duke of Wellington, who's the

843
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: guy who beats Napoleon and is his friend, says I

844
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: have never witnessed such agony as what he sees Peele

845
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: go through trying to get these corn laws repealed. He

846
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: is sort of successful. They do kind of repeal these laws,

847
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: but it's debatable as to how much it helps, because

848
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of other ship gets done that like kind

849
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: of minimizes whatever. You know, it doesn't work as well

850
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: as it should have worked. Um. So when Peel quits,

851
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: he's like, funk this ship. I'm I'm out. Queen Queen

852
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: Victoria brings in a member of the opposition, Lord John Russell,

853
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: and she asks him to form an administration and I'm

854
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: not gonna English parliamentary politics are always very frustrating. It

855
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: doesn't work, and Peel gets brought in for six months

856
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: or so before Russell finally does succeed informing a government.

857
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: For most of the famine that follows, Russell's government is

858
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: the one that's in charge. Um. And so guys like

859
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: Coogan will generally say that, like Peel did all right

860
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: at famine relief, um, but Russell is where things really

861
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: got nasty. Now, other analogies I found will point out

862
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: that like a lot of the economic policies that were

863
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: that were used with such disaster in responding to the

864
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: famine were things that Peel had helped to set up

865
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: prior to the famine, and that he actually deserves a

866
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: lot of blame for why it. It's just that once

867
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: it started he was more reasonable. But he did lay

868
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the groundwork for why it got so bad.

869
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: So I don't want to be like pretending he was

870
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: just purely a positive figure the past, you know, But

871
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, this was a solvable problem, Like every time

872
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: I hear someone like it really was. It was not

873
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: beyond their meats, would not this would not have been

874
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: a blip in history, like it it's an easy problem.

875
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: You hear about stuff like the bubonic play right, which

876
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: kills just this nightmarish chunk of the population, and it's like, yeah,

877
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: looking back in history, we can say, well, if this

878
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: had been seen to that everything, it wouldn't have been

879
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: as bad. But based on their knowledge at the time

880
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: and the level of resources, it's like, I can't I'm

881
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: not like, you can't really be like someone engineered this

882
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: to be so bad, Like no, it was just like

883
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: a thing. It was a it was a thing that

884
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: hit that they were not they were not ever going

885
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: to deal with well, you know, because there just was

886
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: not possible. It's just a plagues happen, you know, um

887
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: and there have been in the past. Again, part of

888
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: why a lot of Irish people get really angry at

889
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: calling it the potato famine. Is that like there have

890
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: been real famines in the fast there's just no food.

891
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: You know. This is not that there was plenty of

892
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: food being made, you know. Um So yeah, um So,

893
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: during this kind of interregnum period almost where Peel quits,

894
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: but then he's back because Russell can't form a government

895
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: during this period of time. Um how to deal with

896
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: the famine becomes the chief question acts of English leaders

897
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: because from eighteen forty six, the plague, the blight only

898
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: gets worse and it becomes clear that like we have

899
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: to figure out a longer term solution to this, like

900
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: we're we're this is not going to get better anytime soon.

901
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: Um So. Travellion travels to Ireland himself during this period

902
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: to like see what's going on. Um and he kind of,

903
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, he does this thing that you see shitty

904
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: journalists do where he like goes to the place where

905
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: the bad thing is happening, and then he only hangs

906
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: around rich people and just kind of writes down whatever

907
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: they say about what's happening to poor people in Ireland.

908
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: Um And he's very pleased that when he goes to

909
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,959
Speaker 1: Ireland he does not encounter anything that makes him feel

910
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: differently about the plague or about the famine. So his

911
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: conclusion is that, um, we shouldn't do anything right. That

912
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: there's there's there's this is like the Irish people's fault

913
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: and you've just got to kind of let this run

914
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: his course. Um. And while this is happening, that guy

915
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: O'Connell we talked about, right, O'Connell still in Parliament. He

916
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: is old and kind of sick at this point, he's

917
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: passed his prime. He's not capable of like really working

918
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: to the same extent that he had, but he's desperately

919
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: trying to get Parliament to do something right. It is

920
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: not the case that everyone in Parliament is just like

921
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: asleep at the wheel. And he's part of like a

922
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: coalition in Parliament who's like, we've got to do something

923
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: and TRAVELI in rites this basically open letter type thing, um,

924
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: where he's like, uh, O'Connell is a demagogue who's trying

925
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: to stir up trouble and it's going to be fine.

926
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: Just just don't we don't got to deal with this ship. Um.

927
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: Near the end of eighteen forty five, O'Connell gets together

928
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: a group of nobles and parliamentarians to suggest that the

929
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: government adopt emergency measures. These included stopping the export of

930
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: food and allowing food to be imported to free of taxes. Right,

931
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: pretty reasonable seeming solution. Um. O'Connell also wants a tax

932
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: on landlords to fund a public works program that will

933
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: give people jobs so they can afford food. Right, he's

934
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, you don't want people getting shipped for free.

935
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 1: What if we tax landlords to fund the public works

936
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: program and then they and buy food and pay their rent. Um.

937
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: This pisses off an awful lot of people. So the

938
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: guy they have to go to for whatever reason of

939
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: parliamentary ship, there's a dude they have to bring this

940
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: proposal to to try to get him to introduce it

941
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: in parliament. He's a he's a motherfucker named Lord Hatesbury.

942
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: Yeah it's hyeah, but like hates Burry, I'm assuming yeah, yeah,

943
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: this is Lord racism. It's done. Um, you've got this

944
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: moment prop where you the this this guy O'Connell. You

945
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: know this this kind of near the end of his

946
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: life when he's sort of fading in his powers as

947
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: a politician, but he's still got like all of this.

948
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: He's kind of the he's the only he's really like

949
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: the only Catholic Irish person with any kind of power,

950
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: right um. And he gets together this group of nobles

951
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: and parliamentarians to try to push this raft of emergency

952
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: measures um, including like stopping the export of food. Allowing

953
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: food to be imported to Ireland free of tacks is

954
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: like really basic ship right again, He's if you wanted

955
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: to kind of put this in modern terms, he's not

956
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: like a far left revolutionary. He's like one of those

957
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: like progressive kinds of democrat type dudes where he's like

958
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to end he's not trying to end

959
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: the system of landlord I mean, and O'Connell is personally

960
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: more radical than that. But these moves are not super radical.

961
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: Like he's not saying we should up end the landlording

962
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: system and give everyone the land that they live on

963
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: and like change this. He's saying, like what if we

964
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 1: did these very basic things to stop them from starving

965
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: to death? Right? Like, these are not radical change minimum

966
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: that there needs to be a term called that very

967
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: and I think honestly O'Connell is more of one, um.

968
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: But but he's he's also very pragmatic, right, and he's

969
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: old too. He has tried the more radical ship. He

970
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: did try to like separate Ireland from England. That ship failed.

971
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: So now he's just like, can we tax the landlords

972
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: to fund a public works program so people can afford

973
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: to buy food? Right? Like you know, which is fair enough?

974
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: Like what it like? It's not like anything did work

975
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: in this period of the rich. Yeah, I'm not gonna

976
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: blame the guy for trying more moderate. There's a fun

977
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: moment with this dude O'Connell. Fun not the the right word,

978
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: but if I'm remembering correctly, this is just something I read.

979
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: It's not in the script, but like there's a moment

980
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: when he's talking about trying to end the Act of

981
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Union and separate Ireland in the UK, and some some

982
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: like poor peasant Farmer sees him and like calls him

983
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: the liberator and he's like, is this what you do

984
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: for a living? And the guy's like yeah, and he's like,

985
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: then why do you care? Like your life's not going

986
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: to change at all if we there're still going to

987
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: be rich people lording over you and stuff. So I

988
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: think he is he is personally like he's pretty aware

989
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: of things, but he's also very much let's see what

990
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,399
Speaker 1: we can do within the confines of this system kind

991
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: of dude. So, for whatever reason, British Parliamentary Ship, neither

992
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,720
Speaker 1: of us are experts on that, and it's not really important.

993
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: The guy who has to make the suggestions in Parliament

994
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: or whatever to try and get this this series of

995
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: emergency measures together is a dude named Lord hate Spury. Um. Yeah, yeah,

996
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: and I know that, yeah h E y t E s.

997
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: But it is it is funny because he's pretty hateful,

998
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: um my lord. So he yeah, they send this like

999
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 1: very modest list of requests to him, and he's like

1000
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: the absolutely the funk not. Um, yes, yeah, of course.

1001
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: And his justification is and this will sound familiar to

1002
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: anyone who's lived through a plague in the last couple

1003
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: of years. Um. I don't know who that applies to,

1004
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: but I'm sure a couple of people. He's like, look, yeah,

1005
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: some of the information about this famine sounds really bad,

1006
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: but some people like Travellion are saying it's fine. So

1007
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: we can't know whether or not it's a problem, and

1008
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: we shouldn't do anything until we get more information. Listen, listen,

1009
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: I can see out my window because Ireland is a

1010
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: mile and a half away. Yeah, it is thirty ft

1011
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: to the left. Yes, but this fool saying is not that.

1012
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: So there's no way of knowing. It's not like any

1013
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 1: of us could just go to Ireland. Yeah we couldn't.

1014
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 1: I mean, well, no Travallion went to Ireland, he says,

1015
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: it's all right. Oh yeah, the hommy win he said

1016
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: it was cool. Yeah, oh my lord, it's very it's

1017
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: not funny, but it's you know, yeah, we can't know.

1018
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: We gotta, we gotta, we gotta hold up, we gotta

1019
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: hold up's wait for some more info. Is ron Bergen

1020
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: so in the well the direct translation has been lost

1021
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: in time. It means Saint diego. Yeah, so eighteen forty six, um,

1022
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, you have eighteen forty five, you lose like

1023
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: a third of the crop thereabouts, and then people have

1024
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: to eat a lot of their seed potatoes and stuff,

1025
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: and so eighteen forty six they plant what little they have.

1026
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: But the potato bug moves in again right that where

1027
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: it's not really a bug, it's a fungus, but like

1028
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,959
Speaker 1: it hits again, and it hits really hard this time,

1029
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: and that year the harvest fails pretty much entirely. Basically,

1030
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people get nothing right, a lot of

1031
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: folks get absolutely meaningfully nothing um, and a lot of

1032
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: because they're starving. So one of the fund up things

1033
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: about this, if you've ever seen like potatoes that have

1034
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: gotten affected by this, they often you could like pull

1035
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: them out of the ground and they'll look fine, like

1036
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: they look like a normal potato, and then you like

1037
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: grab them and they'll just like mush apart in your hands,

1038
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: and it it's this reeking, filthy, rotting goop soup of

1039
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: potato stuff. It's nasty and it's no nutritional value in this,

1040
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: but people are so desperate that they eat them that there,

1041
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: and of course that gets people sick when some people

1042
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: guy as a result of that and stuff. But like

1043
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: that's the level of desperation they are, where like there's

1044
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: this rotting, massive potato and you're like, fuck it, let's

1045
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: try um, or maybe we can try and cut a

1046
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: piece off and maybe that'll be a little bit you know. Um.

1047
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: People are very desperate. And of course this is so

1048
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: bad that like last year, people have to eat their

1049
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: seed potatoes right in order to like make ends meat

1050
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: and get something in their bellies this year, so little

1051
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: gets harvested at all that there's just not seed potatoes

1052
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Right, Um, so there's not

1053
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: only did the crop fail, but people are like, what

1054
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: the funk are we gonna plan next year? You know.

1055
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 1: Even so, even as desperate as the situation is, the

1056
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,720
Speaker 1: government holds against the idea of of stopping the export

1057
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: of food, right, and their justification is that the Irish grain,

1058
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: so the grain that these people who are starving grew,

1059
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: is more expensive than they can afford. They can't afford

1060
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: to pay for the grain that they grew, they just

1061
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: grew that they grew, They can't afford that. So if

1062
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: it's kept in country, the government's going to have to

1063
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,760
Speaker 1: have to subsidize its purchase in order for people Irish

1064
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: people to afford the grain that again they grew, that

1065
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: wetzel like this just the oh gosh, this is again.

1066
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 1: This is why Irish people get so pissed when it

1067
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: is referred to as a potato famine, because there's no

1068
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: fucking famine. Really, like there's a famine and like, yes,

1069
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: people are starving to death, but like there shouldn't have been,

1070
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,479
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't that all of the food failed, you know, dog? Yeah,

1071
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: it just yeah, how are you? Yeah? Man, just the

1072
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: getting the getting the words out of your brain with

1073
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: a straight face to be like, well, I mean they

1074
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: can't afford they can't afford it, so we can't get Yeah,

1075
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: what do we what are we gonna do? We're gonna

1076
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: do dogs, I can't afford it. And it's like I

1077
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: can't afford what what they just gave us? What are

1078
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: we gonna do? Pay people to stay home so the

1079
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: plague doesn't spread? Absolutely not not, it doesn't. You know.

1080
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: Elite logic is similar in all times. It's just the same.

1081
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: And again I'm like, you're this is the longest, most

1082
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: horrible route to a very simple solution. It's just over

1083
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: why you can just be like, hey, look tell you

1084
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: what next month, just keep just just keep the grain. Okay,

1085
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: just keep the grain and we'll we'll we'll build back

1086
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: next month. Okay, just keep the grain. Is month will

1087
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: be cool. Well that's the thing, like O'Connell suggesting there's

1088
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: a way to deal with this that keeps the elites

1089
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: in power. If that's your concern, where you're like, hey,

1090
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: you know what, government's going to pay your rent un

1091
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: till this thing's over. You know, we got you that way.

1092
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: Your landlords are still in charge. We're not sucking up

1093
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: the system. They get to stay. But that it would

1094
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: be too much, and it's so stupid because I'm just like,

1095
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: what the hell you care? Whose name on the check?

1096
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: Don't you just want? One of the people who really

1097
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,959
Speaker 1: cares is Charles Travelli in Um and he is firm

1098
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: that you cannot subsident you can't prohibit exports, and you

1099
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: can't subsidize the purchase of the grain that was grown

1100
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: in Ireland. He writes, do not encourage the idea of

1101
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: prohibiting exports. Perfect free trade is the right course. I'm

1102
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: just like, okay, why like why just like tell tell

1103
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: me why? So just okay. It's because anytime you hear

1104
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: people talking about lazi, fair economics, free market ship, Adam Smith,

1105
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: it's a religion, you know, it is a religion. It's

1106
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: a religion. Everything is. But when you when you say okay,

1107
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: when you look at like this is another reason why

1108
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: like I had I had such a hard time like

1109
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: like passing these exams, because when you say, when you

1110
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: build an economic model, you build it on you know

1111
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: that the mythical average man. Yeah, so this is the

1112
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: average man. So who is the average man? He's thirty

1113
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: two point one years old, he's got two point five

1114
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: children and three and a half like pets, and and

1115
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, the person you're modeling your whole model off

1116
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. That's not no one has two point five kids.

1117
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: So I'm like, how are you setting? How is this?

1118
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand how you can think any of this

1119
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: makes any sense if you building your model off a

1120
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: person that will never be. But you're but you're setting everybody.

1121
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I get what you're saying, well when

1122
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: you average all this stuff out, but but listen to yourself,

1123
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: like you're what do you mean average that your model

1124
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: is for? It is for a made up person that

1125
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: could never exist in real life because nobody again I

1126
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: can't swess this, and this is nobody got two and

1127
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: a half kids. This is the thing where it it is,

1128
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: It gets to it's it's not rational, right. These people

1129
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: are very obsessed with the idea of like rationality and

1130
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: that this is a science, but it's not because when

1131
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: problems of reality can conflict with what they believe about economics,

1132
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: they are incapable of adapting to that change your model. Yeah,

1133
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: not everyone is same thing with like anything, Like with

1134
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: a normal religion, there are some people who like are

1135
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: raised believing something and then like they reached something conflicts

1136
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: and they managed to without losing their faith. Adapted Peel

1137
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: might be a good example, that first Prime Minister who

1138
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: is very much in with this Lasa fair stuff, but

1139
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: when the disaster hits, he makes alterations because he sees that, like,

1140
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: not everyone is this way, but a lot of these

1141
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: guys like Travalian are. They cannot countants violating some of

1142
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: these economic principles that they believe in um And maybe

1143
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: you could argue that they just really hate Irish people

1144
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 1: and want to get rid of them, and that's the justification, right.

1145
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: And I'm like you prexellent, all this ridiculous stuff just

1146
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 1: to say what we already know about you. And I'm

1147
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: just like you, Okay, you just hate them. You don't

1148
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: think they humans, and you frustrated that they actually need

1149
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 1: food to give you what you need, and you ain't

1150
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: health them motive, you just you hate them. Yeah, I

1151
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: just you doing all this stuff that you and I

1152
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: both know sitting across here, what the hell you say?

1153
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: And don't make no sense? You know it, don't you know?

1154
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: A don't so just but you're gonna keep making it

1155
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: makes sense rather than just saying oh yeah yeah. And

1156
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: that's that's where we're gonna leave for part two. And

1157
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: when part three starts up, things are gonna get real unpleasant,

1158
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 1: real quick. But prop, yes, before we hit that that

1159
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: moment you want to plug some plug doubles, I do, man, Uh,

1160
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: I am all my all my socials. I am PROP

1161
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: hip hop. Although I've been called before prop e hop

1162
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like they're putting the P with the H.

1163
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: So they're prop because you're the professor of of of

1164
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:46,439
Speaker 1: of hip hip hop apparently. Uh, I don't know how, y'all.

1165
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how, y'all? What or whatever? Prop hip

1166
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: hop dot com And again at there's a Music and

1167
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 1: Books and hood politics pod. Uh yeah, I saw that,

1168
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: saw things all right. We'll check that out and uh

1169
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: check out Ireland when it's possible to go places without

1170
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: the plague. It's it's pretty nice, pretty nice spot. I am,

1171
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: oh Galway, good Town and trim Coast, lovely, A lot

1172
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: of good stuff in Ireland. Fast oh I do like

1173
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: Belfast it is. It is the city. I've been there twice,

1174
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: and both times I have been to Belfast, there just

1175
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: happened to be riots for different unrelated reasons. I love

1176
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: Belfast it is. It is a thing that happens a

1177
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: lot in Belfast. Love it like I've never met nobody. Yes,

1178
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be closing this show, but I can't

1179
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: say it is like the way I've always felt like.

1180
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: It's very simple, Like Belfast remind me of Long Beach

1181
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: in a sense that I've never met somebody from that

1182
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: city that I didn't like. Well, I was just like,

1183
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is about your city, but

1184
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: you just make very likable people. You're dangerous, say it

1185
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: like you you are. I know that you could somewhere

1186
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: in that smile. It's into humor is a old blood

1187
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: and murder. Yeah, there's there's a town. As a town.

1188
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: You are good at making Molotov cocktails. That's what I'm

1189
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: trying to say. People. A lot of people with experience

1190
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 1: melting British armored vehicles anyway. Podcast