1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: All right, welcome to It could Happen here, a podcast 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: about things falling apart and also sometimes about how things 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: have been falling apart for a while now, and today 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about how things were also bad 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: in falling apart in the two thousands, which a profoundly 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: cursed time period. And specifically we're going to talk about 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: I think a part of the anti war movement that 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: does not get much attention, which is the port militarization 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: resistance that happens sort of two thousand and six, two 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: thousand and seven. And with us today to talk about 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: this is two people who were part of this movement. 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: We have Juliana Neuhauser Hello, Hello, and Brendan Maslawska's done. Yeah, 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: both of them were organizers and activists while this was 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, thank you, thank you both for being here. 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having us so. 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, as I was saying a bit in the intro, 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: I think that this is a part of the anti 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: war movement that is not very well known. I think 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people know about the initial 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: stuff that happened in two thousand and three, and people 21 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: might know about some of the stuff that was happening 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: against the war in Afghanistan, like right when it started, 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: but I don't think most people know that it like 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, even after two thousand and three stort doesn't work, 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: that it continues, and it continues sort of informs. 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 3: That are that are very interesting. 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: And so I guess I want you to to start out, 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: I want to ask how we sort of got from 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: the early part of the anti war movement into this, 30 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: and how you got involved. 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 4: I would say that there's this narrative about the women 32 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 4: against the word Iraq, that there is the largest protests 33 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 4: in human history, at least at that point. I don't 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 4: know if it's still true against the invasion, and then 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 4: it didn't work and everyone kind of went home and 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: ended there, and to a certain extent that's true. But 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 4: like you said, the people that didn't go home went 38 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 4: in interesting directions, and so at the time there were 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: direct action was not as acceptable as it is now. 40 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 4: The this movement was largely dominated either by big liberal 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 4: coalitions or PSL front groups that were basically indistinguishable in 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 4: what they actually did, which was basically nothing and in 43 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 4: the best of cases and then the worst of cases, counterinsurgency. 44 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 4: But then there were small groups of people that when 45 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: we saw that it didn't work, and we saw that 46 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 4: these giant, peaceful marches from one part of town to another, 47 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 4: or voting for job Carrie or whatever the work, that 48 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 4: we started to look for other options. 49 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I got involved, you know, i'd 50 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: say with the anti war movement. That idea of how 51 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: war is unjust was really taught to me from a 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: very young age. I mean, my parents were you know, 53 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: children of the sixties, and they had family members fighting 54 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: in Vietnam and you know, friends dying in Vietnam, and 55 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: we're against the protests back then. So I grew up 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: hearing these stories and of course stories from family members, 57 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: particularly one of my grandfathers, both of them who were 58 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: veterans in World War Two. One of them was a 59 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: marine in the you know, in the Pacific Theater, and 60 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: still into his seventies, eighties and nineties until his final days, 61 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: was just dealing with horrific PTSD and had always taught 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: me from young age never to get involved. So I, 63 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: you know, and I remember when when the very clearly, 64 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure it's on everyone's minds now, and 65 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: when the invasion of Afghanistan started, when the invasion of 66 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: a Rock started. I was at that that massive demonstration 67 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. That Juliana just mentioned, and I 68 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: ended up. I'm from Utica, New York. I went to 69 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 2: a rural high school just outside of of Utica, you know, 70 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: russ Bell generally speaking, impoverished and also very conservative area 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: of New York. And you know, I had the recruiters 72 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: bothering me, military recruiters in high school, recruiting my friends, 73 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: and they were just everywhere in the hallways. So it 74 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: was very present with me when I was younger. I 75 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: moved out to Olympia, Washington, two thousand and six, and 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: that's when a new student activist group, Students for Democratic Society, 77 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: was launched. That's how Juliana and I first met. We 78 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: were both in separate chapters of that new organization in 79 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 2: the Pacific Northwest. And the protests started just a few 80 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: months after I moved out there in Olympia in two 81 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: thousand and six. 82 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: So wait declared for this or second because I've never 83 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: quite been clear in this history. So there was a 84 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: second SD like Students for Democratic Society that was like 85 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: unrelated to the first one. 86 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: They're born briefly at the end of the Budshet Master. 87 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: That explains a lot of things that it's very baffling. 88 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: We're not that old. Yeah, we were definitely in the 89 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: in the second you know, the rebirth of it. So 90 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: you know, I think it took on some things in spirit, 91 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: you know, but also was i'd say different in many ways, 92 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 2: and it was very active. To me at least, it 93 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: was very exciting to be a member of the New 94 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 2: STS because they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific 95 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: Northwest and it was a great way to connect with 96 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 2: young activists all over the US. 97 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: So STS is emerging in this time period. One of 98 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: the other things I was interested about is something something 99 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: you were talking about in the early part of this, 100 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: which has to do with the way that these giant 101 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: both the sort of answer Coalition PSL, Frank Group, and 102 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: I guess the ISO was still around back then coalitions 103 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: work versus how like anything else worked on. So was 104 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: was SDS sort of like consciously set up and in 105 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: opposition to those groups? 106 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: I don't think it was conscious, but there was just 107 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 4: like I mean these days, I mean, like there's a 108 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 4: lot of controversy around PSL with like anarchists versus tanky politics. 109 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 4: None of that mattered at that time, Like, none of 110 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 4: that mattered. The only thing that mattered was the answer, 111 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 4: which was the PSL Front group was completely fucking useless. 112 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 4: Like they completely indistinguishable from any peace police liberal democratic 113 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: front group. There was literally no difference, just in terms 114 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 4: of their aesthetics maybe like is there a donkey or 115 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 4: a hammer and sickle on something. That's the only difference 116 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 4: we saw. So I don't I don't think there was. 117 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 4: It wasn't There wasn't like a conscious like political opposite 118 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 4: attention to it. It was just like they're not doing anything, 119 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: and so we had to look in another direction. 120 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: Actually, you know, it's hard to keep track of the 121 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: alphabet soup of authilitary and communist groups at times, but 122 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: this was actually answer for those who don't recall it 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: was a front group for the Workers World Party the 124 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: W which, yeah, I mean it's it's hard to keep track, right. 125 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the same thing, like I think, so okay, 126 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: So for people who are sort of unaware of this, 127 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: there's a network of connected but sometimes feuding like weird stalness. 128 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: Cults that kind of that kind of like they hold. 129 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: On through like this the eighties and nineties and they 130 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: start sort of rebuilding again around the anti war movements 131 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: in that period. That that's the PSL's of a DUP's answer, like, 132 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: and I think that's like most like modern anti war 133 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: groups are also still these people, which is incredibly depressing 134 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: something I want to talk a bit about it towards 135 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: the end of this, but yeah, just for people who 136 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: have not spent the last half decade in the in 137 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: the trenches of extremely weird anti war politics. So yeah, 138 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: so I think we should get into how the sort 139 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: of the first action starts in Olympia. 140 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and there were actually a couple actions that 141 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: happened in the year proceeding that, you know, before I 142 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: moved out to Olympia in two thousand and six, it 143 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: was not yet under the banner of PMR port Militarization Resistance. 144 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: That was a name that was officially coined in you know, 145 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: in in May and June of two thousand and six. 146 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: And so, just to give you an idea, Olympias it's 147 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: a college town, or at the Evergreen State College is there. 148 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: It's also the capital Washington State, so you have that 149 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: going on. It's also a military town. It's a little 150 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis. 151 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: It's now called JBLM j BLUM or Joint Base Lewis McCord. 152 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: It's an Army and Air Force base. Now it's one base. 153 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: So ye had all these you know, different kind of 154 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: elements in you know, in tandem in that town and 155 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: the public port. The Port of Olympia is one of 156 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: about seventy or so public ports in the state of Washington, 157 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: some of which are I mean, they're used for all 158 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: kinds of things, you know, for our commercial, private industry, 159 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: but also the military and the US government. So, you know, 160 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: I heard from someone I don't even remember who that 161 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: the military was sending a ship to the Port of 162 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: Olympia in late May of two thousand and six. And 163 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: this happened for ten or so days, and it was 164 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 2: just kind of a natural instinct for a whole bunch 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: of us to go down to the Port of Olympia. 166 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: It was the war machine in our backyard, and the 167 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: idea was to just block the vehicles. It started out 168 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: with just like less than ten people, a number of 169 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: folks getting arrested, and that very rapidly culminated into larger 170 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: protests every single day, an act of blockades people those 171 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: of us like Julian and myself and other folks using 172 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,239 Speaker 2: civil disobedience or what we preferred to call civil resistance 173 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: to try and stop or at the very least slow 174 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: down these striker vehicles and to give folks an idea 175 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: of what a striker vehicle is. You can look it 176 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: up online, but it's kind of halfway between, you know, 177 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: a tank and a hum vy. It doesn't have slats, 178 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: you know that a tank would have. It's you know, 179 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: and they were being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan 180 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: for for raids of residential areas. They were really on 181 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: the front lines of the war in both those countries, 182 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: and that's what we were trying to stop. 183 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 4: I only got involved later because I wasn't living in 184 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: Olympia at the time. I was in another STS chapter. 185 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 4: But my roommate was from Olympia and he had been 186 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: involved in that first round of protests in Olympia before 187 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: moving up to Balingham. And so like, hearing his story 188 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 4: has got me very excited because it's like finally someone's 189 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: someone's doing something like someone's they're not just like it's 190 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 4: like everything else was just so liberal, like whether it's 191 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 4: marching from one place to another or writing to your 192 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 4: congress people or occupying their office. It was like asking 193 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 4: someone else to do something you knew from the beginning 194 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 4: they were never going to do. Yeah, and finally this 195 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 4: was finally someone was like actually getting into it. I 196 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 4: think the first one of the things that happened here 197 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: was that they started to avoid there's it was kind 198 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 4: of a geographical thing that I think for people who 199 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 4: either don't know Wash Washington or because they're normal people 200 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 4: don't know like the port areas of these cities very 201 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: well because it's like like unless you're a longshoreman, like 202 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 4: why would you go down to like the port of Tacoma. Yeah, 203 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 4: there's nothing there. 204 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 205 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 4: But they kept moving it around because Olympia is also 206 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 4: not very big and so it's there's really only two 207 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 4: roads into the port, which is very small, and so 208 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 4: it was it's very easy to block it. And so 209 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 4: then I think the first time that I got involved 210 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 4: was in two thousands seven when they had moved it 211 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 4: because they kept moving it around to try and switch 212 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 4: things up and. 213 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: Wait before they're the ship around. 214 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 4: Is no it's like they had to make a military shipment, 215 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 4: they would It's like like once the ship wasn't the port, 216 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 4: they would just have to go through with it. But then, 217 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 4: you know, it's like every every six months or so, 218 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 4: they had to make another military shipment and they would 219 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 4: change the port usually each time to try and let 220 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 4: basically to avoid us. It doesn't seem like this is 221 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 4: like normal craft. Yeah. The first time I had gone 222 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 4: down was in Dacoma, which is a much much, much 223 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 4: more industrialized port than Olympia. It's you know, it's a 224 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 4: big port, more normal port, I guess, And that one 225 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 4: was honestly pretty crazy because you're just trapped into a 226 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 4: giant industrial maize basically at the mercy of the riot cops. 227 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 4: The best success we had was definitely at the port 228 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 4: of Olympia. I think the in two thousand and seven 229 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 4: and Olympia was definitely And it's like the glory moment, 230 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 4: which was when people were able to on and off 231 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 4: like actually hold the port and control it in as 232 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 4: an exits. 233 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to, you know, just emphasize that, 234 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: like the one the military changing their approach right to 235 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: avoid us, so jumping from port to port with these 236 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: different shipments. They actually went so far because we were 237 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: so successful as a movement in the Pacific Northwest to 238 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: ship striker vehicles by rail out of the Pacific Northwest 239 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: and even going so far as to ports in Texas. 240 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: But you know, one thing that we did is that 241 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: we built up contacts with other activists with long shore 242 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: workers all up and down the West coast in California. 243 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: There are other activists we were connected with in Texas, Hawaii, 244 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: New Jersey, and New York. There is a desire in 245 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: the anti war movement, and you know, in some extent 246 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: maybe it's like it was small, but with some folks 247 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: in the labor movement, especially in Oakland where the ISLWU, 248 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: the longshore Workers Union, it's a lot more militant than 249 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: say in a place like Olympia. But yeah, I mean 250 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: people wanted to replicate this model because, as Julianna said, 251 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: we wore successful. In two thousand and seven, we shut 252 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: down the port of Olympia for a total of it 253 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: was essentially two days. They were not they're not shipping 254 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: anything in or out. We set up blockades, we're willing 255 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: to throw down with the police in the street. 256 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: And one of the things that was cool about that 257 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 4: blockade is that one of the there's two entrances, like 258 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 4: I said, and one was completely blockaded, and then the 259 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 4: other one we had like a moving I don't really 260 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 4: know what it was, but something with wheels that we 261 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 4: could move in and out to open it up, and 262 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 4: so then we could allow like civilian cargo to move 263 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 4: in and out, but then like we would feel it 264 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: back in place to block military shipments. 265 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: So we were you able to actually like stop them 266 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: from like wet while in that one in to come 267 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: we actually like stopped them from moving this stuff altogether. 268 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: Or do you actually cleared up by the police and 269 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: they moved it. 270 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 4: We would eventually get cleared out by the police. It's 271 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 4: like we were never able to It's like we were 272 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 4: we we held it for two days. That those protests 273 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 4: took place over a series of two weeks or more 274 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 4: or less. We were only able to fully hold it 275 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 4: for two days before eventually they would clear us out. 276 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 4: But one of the things is that this does it 277 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 4: did create problems for the army because when you work 278 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 4: with a port, you know, it's like you've got like 279 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 4: a certain time frame that you've contracted with the port 280 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 4: to do whatever it is is you're going to do, 281 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 4: and it's not too happy if you take longer than 282 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 4: you said. 283 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: You would or Yeah. And the other thing I want 284 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 2: to add is, you know, I think the other really 285 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: important element with this whole movement going on is the 286 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest was it is specifically western Washington, where the 287 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: two of us were living. It was, you know, the 288 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: center in a sense, it was the heart of the 289 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 2: anti war movement in the country at that time. One 290 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 2: because of this militant direct action that we were you know, 291 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 2: we were building up in the streets and trying to 292 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: throw wrench in the gears of the war machine to 293 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 2: at the very least slow it down, which in some 294 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: ways we did, but you know, we were up against 295 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: so much. But the other added element, of course, is 296 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: the GI resistance and the soldiers who are resisting i've 297 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: all also known as Iraq veterans against the war was 298 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: very active there. They set up a GI coffeehouse across 299 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: you know, literally across the street, you know, the the 300 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: gates for one of the entrances for Fort Lewis. There 301 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: are a whole bunch of soldiers that were going a wall. 302 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 2: We had friends who were active duty soldiers who had 303 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: fought in you know, Iraq and Afghanistan that were a 304 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: wall and they were hiding, you know, refusing to go 305 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: back into these striker brigades that joined us in port 306 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: militarization resistance. There are a whole, you know, long list 307 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: of soldiers that were very publicly saying, you know, I'm 308 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: refusing to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, 309 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: various reasons. And so we are very much connected with 310 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: this movement too, and I think the higher ups in 311 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: the military they're they're hyper aware of that. They studied 312 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: us very well, you know, to the point of actually 313 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: spying on us. So that's like a whole other element 314 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 2: of the story too. 315 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that I've heard from talking to 316 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: other people who were involved in this was that like wow, 317 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: like during these protests, like the level of police militarization 318 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: just like skyrocketed. And like I remember, I was, like 319 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: you said about this, those like you know, if if 320 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: you go back and look at like old system of 321 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: a down videos, you know, they'll have these things. Yeah, 322 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: you'll see these you see these riot police and like 323 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: you look at them and it's like these people they 324 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: look so much less armored than like the people that 325 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: we have now. And one of the of things I 326 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: thought was interesting about this was that like this is 327 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: I think one of the points where you start getting 328 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: the modern riot police showing up that are just like, 329 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, completely concased in like armor. And yeah, I 330 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: want to talk about just like the police response to this, 331 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: because I think that's That's another thing I think. I 332 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: think there's there's a kind of a tendency to sort 333 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: of project back what the police looked like in twenty 334 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: twenty one, just onto the whole history of police, and 335 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: I think it's like it's it's it's gotten worse even 336 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: in the last twenty years. 337 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so I lived downtown in Olympia and 338 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: probably just like a six minute walk away from the 339 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: Port of Olympia and also very conveniently just a few 340 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: blocks away from the police station. So so lucky. Yuh 341 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: So we actually saw, you know, we could see from 342 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: the front of down on the road, down on the 343 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: sidewalk from the front of our house, some of the 344 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: military shipments going by, and we we did see that absolutely, 345 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: and at at times it was it was terrifying. I mean, 346 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: I lived in an activist house we jokingly called HQ 347 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: because that's just you know, where it because of its 348 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: proximity to the port. That's where a number of us 349 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: were having meetings, you know, around these protests early on 350 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: in two thousand and six. And yeah, I mean we 351 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: like they looked like RoboCop and it's something I had 352 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: I you know, I hadn't like I had been to 353 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: like mass marches and demonstrations like the RNC protests and 354 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: DNC protests in Boston, New York and like in Washington, 355 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: d c uh and so I would see these like 356 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: riot cops, but they were I mean ubiquitous in these 357 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 2: port protests. It was like a whole army of them 358 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: that was sent out. I mean when Juliana said that 359 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: things got kind of crazy at the Port of Tacoma protests, 360 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: I mean there was like a police riot, you know, 361 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: like the cops went absolutely nuts there, shooting people with 362 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: tear gas and pepper balls and brutalizing people. I had 363 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: never before witnessed anything like that. And it got to 364 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 2: the point in you know, in Olympia where we kind 365 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: of knew early on that we were being traced by 366 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: the police to the extent where you know, one friend 367 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: of ours was followed from our house to the bus 368 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: station to take a bus to school by the police 369 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: and then was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on 370 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: the street. And we had another fellow activists and you know, 371 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: a roommate of mine who was going out to driving 372 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: out with a few friends, a few fellow activists from 373 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 2: Olympia to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's 374 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: a port of grays Harbor there, pretty conservative small town. 375 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 2: It's where Kirk Cobain is from. 376 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 4: Home of the famous Kurt Cobain teamed McDonald's. 377 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: They served billions and billions served in that one McDonald's 378 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: and Kirk Cobain's McDon donalds. But yeah, I mean they 379 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: you know, they they were, they were following. They had 380 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: orders the Washington State Patrol too, you know, pull over 381 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: a car ful full of known anarchists. There was alert 382 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: gone out to all the police departments. They pulled them, 383 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 2: they pulled them over, They made him walk the line. 384 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: He was hadn't you know, wasn't drinking at no drugs 385 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: like nothing in his system. But they he was driving 386 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 2: under like one mile per hour under the speed limit. 387 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: They arrested him for d d W I, you know, 388 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: eventually fought the chargers, sued them h and you know 389 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: what a big settlement out of all that. But that's 390 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 2: just one example of many of the lengths that the 391 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: police would go to. It was pretty severe. Even there's 392 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger anarchists called 393 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: pitch Pipe Info Shop and Tacoma, and that was also 394 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: a big target. The police were swarming around them all 395 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 2: the time. 396 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 4: They had like cameras set up, like specifically just side 397 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 4: the Inn Fishop, Like there weren't seriunce cameras there before, 398 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 4: but then there's like, oh well, just conveniently put them 399 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: on this one specific street corner. 400 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like those One of the things I 401 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: was reading about this is you have that stuff. And 402 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: then also I think one of the sturiest parts of 403 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: this is that like army intelligence gets involved, and yeah, 404 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: do you want to talk about the man named quote 405 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: unquote John Jacob, who was in fact not. 406 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: That Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm curious what memories 407 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: you have of our our good dear friend John Jacob. Juliana. 408 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 4: I don't think I ever actually knew him in person, 409 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 4: but he was the moderator of the list serve, wasn't he. 410 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: Yes, he's one of the moderators of our list serves. 411 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: Now that I look back on it, I'm like the 412 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 4: the Aport militization resistance the SERB was always just like 413 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 4: this dramatic shit show. It's like, looking back on it, 414 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 4: I was like, oh, moderated by a cop that did nothing, 415 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 4: absolutely nothing to like establish order or that was a purpose. 416 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think there's definitely some things that happened, 417 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 2: Like you know, looking back from our vantage point today, 418 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, things make a little more sense at 419 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 2: the time though, And we're in this movement, right and 420 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: so that means like meeting people where they're at, we 421 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 2: would find all kinds of people that would like want 422 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 2: to join the movement, like I, like I said earlier, 423 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: like active duty soldiers that were joining. So I met 424 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: this guy named John Jacob and he sent an email 425 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: out to me. I was one of the contacts for 426 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: the Olympia STS Group, and it's like, hey, you know, 427 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: there's kind of like a parent organization that's some old 428 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: like elder activists are in to kind of mentor us 429 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: called movement for a democratic society, very small, never really 430 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: took off, but like I'm interested in getting involved. We 431 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: met up in public, and he seemed like an alright guy. 432 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: I mean he was, you know, forty ish early forties. 433 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 2: He told me had like you know, been in the 434 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: military for years, and he actually still worked at Fort Lewis, 435 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 2: so he was always open about that. But it only 436 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 2: went that far. He didn't ever tell us what he 437 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 2: actually did there, and it wasn't abnormal for you know, 438 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: we have many folks that worked active duty, you know, 439 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: on base and civilian civilian roles or soldiers. As I 440 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 2: mentioned that, we're in port militarization resistance. So he gets involved, 441 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: and he gets really involved with Port militarization resistance. He 442 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: goes to protests, He gets pretty close with this group 443 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: of anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, and he 444 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: seemed like a really solid guy to most of us. 445 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 2: And you know, things happen as as we progress and 446 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 2: you know, as the military responded to our you know, 447 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: how effective we were in the anti war movement and 448 00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: the gi resistance movement by changing their tactics. We noticed that, Okay, 449 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: when we first started the protests, we had the ability 450 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: to catch the police by surprise by setting up, you know, 451 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: a blockade here or having a surprise action there at 452 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: this time or this port, et cetera, et cetera. And 453 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 2: as time progressed, we found out that you know, we 454 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: were having these making these decisions for tactics in our strategy. 455 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: We thought that we're in private, and then for whatever reason, 456 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: the police kind of knew about where we were going 457 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 2: to be before we even showed up. And that I 458 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: remember that clearly happening in two thousand and seven the 459 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: Port of Olympia. 460 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, in Takoma. There was a lot of things like that. 461 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 4: Like there was one time when there are like some 462 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 4: people who had a meeting in a closed room, like 463 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 4: all their they had taken, like the batteries out of 464 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 4: their cell phones. 465 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 3: They had simply. 466 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 4: Written on the whiteboard the time and place they are 467 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 4: going to have their next meeting, which is going to 468 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 4: be in a diner near the port. And so that way, 469 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 4: if like if for any reason the room bugs, it 470 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 4: wouldn't be caught up because it was just written on 471 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 4: a board. And then it was like a small meeting too, 472 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 4: so it's like there weren't and then when they got 473 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 4: to that diner, there's like full of cops like clearly 474 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 4: waiting for them. Like at that point, it's like it 475 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 4: was very clear there was some level of infiltration involved. 476 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think were from early on, like you know, 477 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 2: we we knew our history. I mean, you know, one 478 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: of our fellow activists in PMRS and a friend of ours, 479 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: Peter Bohmer, is a professor at the Evergreen State College. 480 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: He was in the original STS back in the sixties, 481 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: and you know, he was essentially a political prisoner for 482 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: a couple of years in both Massachusetts and California. I mean, 483 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: the FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him back in the 484 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: seventies when he was active in the anti war movement 485 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: in San Diego. Like we knew, you know, former Black Panthers, 486 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: and we read our history, so we knew about the 487 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: history of co intel pro the counterintelligence program of the 488 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: sixties and seventies and the war on the anti war 489 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: and civil rights and black power, American Indian movements, et cetera. 490 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 2: So we knew, you know, just intuitively early on. But 491 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: there was one thing that happened in particular which prompted 492 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: some of us to file for a public records request 493 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: with the City of Olympia, and another activist is walking 494 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: down the street in Olympia. I'm a member of the 495 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: Wobblyes and Dustal Workers of the World Union and we 496 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: had like one of those metal newspaper boxes downtown and 497 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 2: it was locked to a poll, you know, with a 498 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: bike lock. And there are some city workers there with 499 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: a pickup truck and they're cutting the lock to the 500 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: newspaper box and they threw it in their pickup truck, 501 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 2: and so, you know, this friend of ours was there. 502 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: It was like, what the hell, what are you doing? 503 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: What's going on? And one of the workers just kind 504 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: of shrugged and was like, I don't know. The police 505 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: told us to do this, and they drove off like 506 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: they stole you know, are essentially like our union property 507 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: or whatever. So we had you know, our lawyer friend 508 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: Larry Hildes and the National Lawyer's Guild you know, call 509 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: and kind of threatened the city and then a number 510 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: of us got together were like, hey, you know, let's 511 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: do like a public records request with the City of 512 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: Olympia freedom of information law right, and so we did 513 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: and the request was you know, just requesting any all 514 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: information the city had any exchanges communications by email, et 515 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: cetera between the police and like other agencies about anarchists 516 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 2: IWW students for a Democratic Society, and their initial search 517 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: that the city clerk did yielded something like thirty thousand responses. 518 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: So she's like, Okay, I got to narrow this down. 519 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I was working on the request 520 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 2: at the time and for some reason, like I don't know, 521 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: we're port protests were near a military base, communications between 522 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: army not thinking anything, and so the initial responses it 523 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: actually got you know, maybe one hundred, one hundred and 524 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,959 Speaker 2: thirty or so different documents, just copies of emails, et 525 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: cetera that were little puzzle pieces for this massive puzzle, 526 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: and it was just a few of them, and it was, 527 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, there was an email talking about our guy 528 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: in the Navy going to a PMR meeting to get 529 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: some intel. Uh, there's you know, all kinds of things 530 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: like that. There were a few emails in particular, and 531 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: the email address was something like John John J Towery 532 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: at you know, Army dot us, whatever the email address was. 533 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: So there's a crew of activists that got together put 534 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: their heads together, did some research quietly for a few 535 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: months and eventually found out by publicly accessible information like 536 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: voter registration records and also finding out something about like 537 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: a motorcycle club called like the I don't know, like 538 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: the Brown Butte Club or the Brown Butt Club or 539 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: something and the like. Found out that this John Towery 540 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: guy that was in this motorcycle club and had his 541 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: you know, was registered to vote outside of Tacoma in 542 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: this town there. It was actually John Jacob. It was 543 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: this guy that we thought was a fellow activist, an 544 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: anarchist and a friend, you know, I thought he was 545 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 2: a personal friend of mine. Turns out he was actually 546 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: essentially an Army intelligence officer working for something called the 547 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: Force Protection Unit at Joint Joint Base Lewis McCord and 548 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: also working with a whole list of different agencies and 549 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: what turned out to be like a massive surveillance network 550 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: that was national in scope. This guy was sent by 551 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: the Army along with many others to infiltrate us, to 552 00:32:53,360 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: spy on us, and to disrupt us. It was huge. 553 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's one of the things that are always 554 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 5: so much really interesting on this So, like I learned 555 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 5: about militarization resistance basically because I was like poking around 556 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,479 Speaker 5: the history of like informists and I ran into this 557 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 5: and I was like what because? 558 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: And then that was what I thought. One of the 559 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: things I thought was really interesting about this is that like, 560 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: like I think that this chapter of the anti war 561 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: movement is even on the left, is like not very 562 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: well known, but like the serious dis is which the 563 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: army seems to have taken it is, like is really remarkable. 564 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm wondering what you think about that. 565 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 4: One thing we have to emphasize is is that we 566 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 4: were not a large group of people. Yeah, like the 567 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 4: number of people who are actively involved in port military. 568 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 4: I guess my insistence at its peak was at how 569 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 4: many people do you think it was, Brandon. 570 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: Well, it depends. I mean I'd say they're probably like 571 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: at its peak, maybe probably four to fifty people that 572 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: would like consistently show up to think, you know, maybe 573 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: a slightly smaller, very core group, but we would have 574 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: demonstrations with like and then like four hundred people, you know, yeah. 575 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 4: And like that would be like the max like there is. 576 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 4: It's like there were like the peaceful like kind of 577 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 4: like support actions. You know, you would get like a 578 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 4: couple hundred people, and then like for the stuff like 579 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 4: where it's like the first night that that the part 580 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 4: of the entrance to the part of Olympia was occupied, 581 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 4: would be like like forty to fifty people. These were 582 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 4: not These were not very large groups of people. I 583 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 4: feel like, and like I said, it's like one thing 584 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 4: that we need to keep in mind was that the 585 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 4: peace police were much stronger back then than they are 586 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 4: now nowadays, Like as we saw last year, it's like 587 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 4: people in the US have learned to throw down, but 588 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 4: that was not the case at the time. And so 589 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 4: this is a very very small group of people, and 590 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 4: I think we accomplished a lot from with how small 591 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 4: it was. If it had been larger, it would have 592 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 4: accomplished way more. But even that small core of like 593 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 4: forty to fifty people with maybe expanding out to like 594 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 4: a larger group of a couple hundred, had them that 595 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 4: scared that they went that far to try and disrupt it. 596 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is one of the things I've been 597 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: thinking about a lot recently. Of this has seem to 598 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: be a very consistent thing, which is that like the 599 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: two things that are guaranteed to like just have a 600 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: hammer drop on you if you touch them. Is pipelines 601 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: and ports, and that was something you know, we've talked 602 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: a lot on here about pipeline protests. 603 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 3: But I was interested in. 604 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: What you two think about, because yeah, this this is 605 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: like a very particular moments right now in what you're 606 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: dealing with all these logistics chain failures. 607 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 3: And I was wondering if if you do think there's 608 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 3: anything that we. 609 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: Can learn from how your versions of the sort of 610 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: of port demonstrations worked for potentially trying to leverage that 611 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: in the future, especially with like contract negotiations for port 612 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: workers in Oakland coming up next year. 613 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, it is this 614 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: old saying and the IWW, direct action gets goods, right, 615 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 2: And I think it really boils down to that. It's 616 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: building up you know, mass movements and social movements from 617 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: below that rely on direct action, that rely on civil resistance, 618 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: civil disobedience. Yeah, and the pipeline protests that have been 619 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: ongoing where Indigenous people have been on the front lines 620 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: of that for many many years now. I mean, the 621 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: kind of repression and surveillance that we face really pales 622 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: in comparison to the kinds of you know, surveillance of 623 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: repression that folks we're facing at Standing Rock for example. 624 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 2: You know, I think, of course, one of the well 625 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: one of the main differences is that it was primarily 626 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: the military, you know, with us, right that was surveilling us, 627 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 2: because this was very specifically you know, a war issue 628 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: and a military issue. But yeah, I mean I think, 629 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: you know, like I think there's a big questions like 630 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 2: what do we have to do that's that's new? And 631 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: to me, I say, you know, for both that kind 632 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: of militant action, but also for the labor movements, like, 633 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: it's not you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. 634 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: There are things that have tried and true track record 635 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: of getting the goods, and that is you know, these 636 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: more disruptive kind of actions and movements, and so one 637 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: of them would be you know, I guess my suggestion 638 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 2: would be to like go back to the basics. And 639 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: even like I would say, now you know this, remember 640 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: this is at a time when like Facebook was around, right, like, 641 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: but we weren't really using that for our organizing. We 642 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: really relied on like face to face meetings, you know, 643 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 2: phone calls and building up trust with people and building 644 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: up our capacity to like take actions and make change. 645 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: You know, I think I'm not saying throw out everything 646 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 2: that you know, that at least some of the good 647 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: that social media has to offer, but like I think 648 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 2: going beyond that and going back to these older tactics 649 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 2: and then for the labor movement, like the big thing 650 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: is you know, and it's just like a bigger question 651 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: for for mainstream unions in particular. I mean, they're the 652 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 2: whole idea of like union contracts is that workers also 653 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: lose a lot. Yeah, they get some things, but business 654 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 2: owners and bosses have rights carved out in those contracts. 655 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 2: And with the long shore workers, I mean the difficult 656 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: thing with that, of course, is like there would be 657 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: some symbolic strikes that of course, like longshore workers have 658 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 2: done and continue to do, you know, around like the 659 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 2: Warren Rock historically supporting movement Abou Jamal may Day, et cetera, 660 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 2: like in Oakland, but they have some things for that 661 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 2: written into their contracts, and you know, for all these 662 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: other like unions, it's like, well, you know, we can't 663 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 2: strike at all for the next two years or next 664 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 2: three years, whatever the life of the contract is, Like 665 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: I think it's a bigger question and challenge for the 666 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: labor movement to move beyond that and not be put 667 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 2: in this straight jacket of contracts like that. 668 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that, particularly like the the no 669 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: strike clause part of contracts, I think is an interesting 670 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: thing because it I don't know, there's not I mean, 671 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: there are some unions that will actually do stuff around 672 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: fighting it, but mostly people just sort of don't care. 673 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: And I think you wind up in a situation where 674 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: it seems like you kind of have to plan your 675 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: tactics around when contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise you 676 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: can't actually get people to do anything more of in 677 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: like a one day symbolic strike. 678 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and or you know, the challenge is like, you know, 679 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 2: we have this great American tradition that's not unique to 680 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 2: the US. It's universal really, and it's one that resonates 681 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 2: with me breaking the law right and like we're you know, 682 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 2: we're like civil disobedience. That is that what we are 683 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: doing in the streets and blocking the ports. We were 684 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 2: breaking the law and we knew it. And that's what 685 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, the Black freedom movement did in 686 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties. But like we have recent examples of 687 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 2: workers breaking the law in mass like the West Virginia 688 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 2: teacher strikes and a few years ago, like teachers in 689 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 2: every single county in that state went on strike. They 690 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 2: broke the law, and they want something out of that. 691 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 2: And I think that's what we really need to encourage people, 692 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: is this idea of breaking out of like the norm 693 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 2: and and breaking the laws, which you know, the laws 694 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 2: that are in place, which are not there to you know, 695 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 2: expand our freedom, they're there to contract it. 696 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, one of one of my friends kind a joke 697 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: about what was the exact line. It was, it's it's 698 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: only illegal if you get caught and it only matters 699 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: if you lose, which I think is a good way 700 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: of thinking about. 701 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 3: Both. 702 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: And yeah, and you know, yeah, I think it's also 703 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: like it's worth mentioning that like the other sides, the 704 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: law doesn't matter to them at all, Like they just 705 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: tear it up and like light it on fire constantly. 706 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: So don't don't bind yourself if you can, if you 707 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: can not get caught and not like go to prison 708 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. Don't bind yourself by 709 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of like paper that the other side just 710 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: doesn't care about. 711 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's an excellent point because that's the big thing, 712 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 2: you know with the army and law enforcement in general, 713 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 2: like surveillance of us. They were in the police, just 714 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 2: their actions, their brazen actions on the street, like the 715 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 2: riot police. They were just breaking the law all the time. 716 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 2: They absolutely have a deep visceral hatred of the Bill 717 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 2: of Rights, of civil rights and civil liberties. And so 718 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: there were a number of you know, court cases that 719 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 2: sprung out of you know, this movement. There was a 720 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 2: case called Panagoacas Vitari. Another Juliana Panagakas was another PMR 721 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: member coplaintiff in that case. And you know, it is 722 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 2: a case against the army that you know, we waged 723 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 2: and brought up to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals 724 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 2: and you know, eventually lost and it could have brought 725 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 2: it to the Supreme Court but didn't. But you know, 726 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 2: like the the other thing is like the violation of 727 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 2: the posse commentatous Act. It was a whole other thing. 728 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 2: You know, we don't have to get like so tied 729 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 2: up into like the legalistic I think, but like the 730 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 2: point your point is valid, Like they don't care about 731 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 2: the laws that are already there. They'll they'll just intentionally 732 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 2: break them, break their own laws that they have set up, 733 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 2: and you know, they'll just get a slap on the 734 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 2: wrist because that's really all that's all that happens to them. 735 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 3: I think, I think, I think that's a good note 736 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 3: to end on. Break the law. It's fake. It's also bad. 737 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 2: Do you two have anything you want to plug other 738 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 2: than that, other than you know, encouraging people to break them. 739 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 3: Your local port. 740 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, uh yeah, I mean I think it's you know, 741 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 2: I guess just encourage people to do as you know, 742 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 2: it sounds like what we're you're doing by having this 743 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 2: on the show, And like there are some in our 744 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: very recent history, you know, movements and wins that we 745 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 2: all as activists today can still learn from. And I 746 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 2: think part of that, you know, I don't want to 747 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 2: call us elders because we're not that old, but like 748 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: one part of that is like making sure like our 749 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 2: movements are still like multi generational and like we we 750 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 2: learned from each other and also as as Julianna and 751 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 2: I did, like I mentioned earlier, like we learned from 752 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 2: the movements of the past, SDS, the Black Panthers, the 753 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 2: Black Freedom Movement, et cetera. But there's a lot that 754 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 2: you know, these these struggles I think have to offer 755 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 2: us today. 756 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: All right, well think thank you, Thank you both for talking, 757 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: coming on and talking with. 758 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 2: Us, for having us. Thank you. 759 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 3: Well, this is, this has been. It could happen here. 760 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: I find us at happen Here pod on Twitter, Instagram, 761 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,760 Speaker 1: and the rest of our stuff is a closone media 762 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 1: at the same somewhat accursed social media places. 763 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm saying somewhat. They're just a cursed. 764 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, see you next time whenever. 765 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,399 Speaker 2: That is. 766 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,720 Speaker 3: It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 767 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 768 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 5: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 769 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 770 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 5: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 771 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 5: Coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 772 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.