1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Dowdy and I'm to Blaine and Chuck reporting, 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: and we have a another very special October Halloween Spooky 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: episode for you today. This time it is an interview. 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: In fact, yes, we did something really cool recently. Last month, 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: we went to the Decatur Book Festival right here in Georgia, 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: and we got the chance to see Holly Tucker, who 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: was an associate professor at Vanderbilt University, talk about her 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: new book, which is called blood Work, A Tale of 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: Medicine and Murder in the Scientific Revolution. So we went 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: into it excited about it, but thinking, Okay, this is 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: going to be a book all about the history of 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: blood and blood circulation and blood transfusions. But what we 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: found was so so much more. Well. Yeah, and because 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: Holly's interview was as part of the Atlanta Science Taverns 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: First Science Track at the Decatur Book Festival, I had 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: a suspicion that there would be more than just just 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: sort of a straight medical story. And I mean there 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: is a lot more their monsters. There's murder obviously in 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: the title, and Um, the thing that surprised me most 22 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 1: about the book and about Holly's lecture though, is that 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: the history of blood transfusion starts so much earlier than 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: you would expect. I guess that's the first Uh, maybe 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: a little disturbing fact about the book. I mean it 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: starts off in the six hundreds. Yeah, just to give 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: you a brief rundown, it's about the very first blood 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: human blood transfusion, which took place in the sixteen hundreds, 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: and the man who performed them and how his experiments 30 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: were kind of shut down, and the mystery, the murder 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: mystery surrounding well. In this rivalry too, there are a 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: lot of rivalries that play between France where the first 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: transfusion took place, in England where the early your experiments 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: in blood transfusions with animals took place, and um, just 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: rivalry among the doctors in France too. So there's a 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: lot going on. And then there are some really pretty 37 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: horrific experiments. So I think you guys are gonna like 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: this and like hearing about sort of a Dr Frankenstein 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: sort of sort of medical history. Yeah, it's definitely a 40 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: monster story. And Holly Tucker took us through this for 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: about forty five minutes, and we were riveted in our chairs, 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: and not just by the story, but by her too. 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: She's such a cool person with a enviewable career that 44 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: we will discuss more later, but first we want to 45 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: start with the story. Yeah, and the first question we 46 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: wanted to ask her was how did she find something 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: like this, because, as we just mentioned, we were surprised 48 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: that the history of blood transfusion started in the seventeenth century. 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: How did Holly stumble upon this? Here's what she had 50 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: to say. Well, the best thing about being a university 51 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: professor is that you teach, and when it works really well. Um, 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: and especially a place like Manderbelt often does, is that 53 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: what you do in the classroom informs your research, and 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: your research informs your teaching. UM. So, I was planning 55 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: a course in my History of Medicine class I'm sorry, 56 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: a segment in my History of medicine class on William 57 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: Harvey's discovery of blood circulation. And it's a lecture I've 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: been giving many many times before, and I was getting 59 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: a little bit bored of it. So I decided I 60 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: was always planning my class, I would do a little 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: bit more reading around blood and um at that time, 62 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: the Philosophical Transactions, which are the main um which were 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: the main publications for the Royal Society at this time. 64 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: So in the m seventeenth century they were talking a 65 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: lot about blood and blood transfusion in the years following 66 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: Harvey and I thought blood transfusion. I had that same 67 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: response that you did, is what in the world. This 68 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: is the seventeenth century. So as I was looking at 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: this discovery of blood circulation, it led me to expand 70 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: out and to stumble, quite literally stumble on blood transfusion. 71 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: So it made for a really fun lecture because I 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: was also a student. I really was still trying to 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: find my way through the topic. And what's almost as 74 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: surprising as the fact that people were doing blood transfusions 75 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: this long ago, it was just learning what their previous 76 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: ideas about blood were. English physician William Harvey didn't discover 77 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: blood circulation and describe the circulatory system until the sixteen hundreds, 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: and his ideas were considered pretty radical at the time. 79 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: In her book, Tucker includes a good bit about the 80 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: historical notions about blood, which explains, among other things, why 81 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: blood letting was such a popular treatment for all sorts 82 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: of illnesses at the time, and she tells us a 83 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: little bit more about all of that. Here. What's really 84 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: interesting about the history blood transfusion is just how unlikely 85 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: it would have been for people to imagine putting blood 86 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: in because they had spent so long imagining all the 87 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: myriad ways to take blood out. And that was based 88 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: on longstanding notions of the body as this balance of 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: fluids and what they called They called them humors, and 90 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: these were notions. The humoral way of understanding the body 91 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: is something that began in antiquity with Galen Hippocrates. Those 92 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: are names that many people recognize. Galen and Hippocrates understood 93 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: the body to be this production of fluids, and when 94 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: you were healthy, you're humors, bile, blood, black bile, and 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: um phlegm. We're all in balance, and when you were sick, 96 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: it was out of balance. And one way that you 97 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: could adjust the humors was through nutrition. So if you 98 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: hadn't if your body was overly cold, you would eat 99 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: more warm humorlly warm food, um or. What you could 100 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: do is to sort of jump start that balance would 101 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: be to do blood letting, either through lancets or leeches, 102 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: all the all the things that we typically associate with 103 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: with early medicine, and that model had a specific um 104 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: influence on how blood was understood. First, blood didn't circulate. 105 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: They didn't know that blood circulated. Instead, blood was produced 106 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: in the digestive system. So what you ate food, It 107 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: was concocted was the word they used. Concocted in the stomach, 108 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: moved to the liver where it was distilled into the 109 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: life force of blood. Then the fluid blood would move 110 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: up to the heart, and the heart was seen something 111 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: as a furnace, so to provide heat and energy to 112 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: the body, the blood would be burned off, So it 113 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: made this one way trip to the heart essentially, And 114 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: so they didn't know yet about the relationship between the 115 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: uh pulmonary system and the cardiovascular system. So breathing was 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: simply a way to stoke the fires of the heart 117 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: and then um, when you breathe out of course, it 118 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: was to get rid of some of the some of 119 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: the smoke and I'm using quote fingers here, some of 120 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: the smoke produced by by the heart's fires. So hearing 121 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: all about the human mers and the coldness and warmness 122 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: of the body and keeping all of that in balance 123 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: made us wonder if that was the root of the 124 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: old thing that you feed a cold and starve a fever. 125 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: Here's what Hallie had to say. I think so in fact, 126 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: um feeding a cold starving a fever, because what you 127 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: don't want to do is, if you have a fever, 128 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: if your body is already humorrally hot, is to put 129 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: food in specifically hot food into your body. And that 130 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: would be something like steak and wine and things like that, 131 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: because your whole idea is to is to rebalance those 132 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: those humors. And the same thing with with feeding a cold. Um, 133 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: you would want to eat something like chicken soup where 134 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: it was very warm and warming to the body as 135 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: as a way to rebalance your humors. So, as I 136 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: mentioned in the beginning, rivalry is really at the center 137 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: of blood work, the national rivalry, the rivalry between doctors. 138 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: So we wanted to know how much of that rivalry 139 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: started with Harvey's discovery of circulation. Did the majority of 140 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: people still go along with the old ideas of humor 141 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: than of blood letting, or did they really pick up 142 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: the baton with Harvey's new idea. Well, it's interesting when 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: William Harvey discovers blood circulation in the sixteen twenties. He's 144 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 1: specifically wondering whether this idea of the humors as being 145 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: um the the definition of how blood is made, in 146 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: how it is used, is whether that's actually accurate or not, 147 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: And he determines, of course that it's not. Through a 148 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: whole variety of experiments in sight, he finally comes to 149 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: the conclusion that blood circulates, But that doesn't mean that 150 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: the humors go away. Once Harvey discovers circulation. Actually, to 151 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: the contrary, we know that blood letting and leeches and 152 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: lancets continue well into the nineteenth century. George Washington, for example, 153 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: was historians think he was pretty much blood let to 154 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: death right, because the whole understanding the body is this 155 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: is this humoral balance will continue. You. Now, Harvey was 156 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: attractive to many of the English thinkers, but he was 157 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: actually um considered too radical for the French. The French, 158 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: who were Catholic, deeply deeply conservative traditional both in the 159 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: religious and the political sense, but also the philosophical sense. 160 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: So when Harvey presents this idea of blood circulation, the 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: French are frankly outraged at it, and and and and 162 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: so the story of blood work, of the early blood 163 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: transfusions and the rivalries is set in the late sixteen sixties, 164 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: but the stage itself is created in the sixteen twenties 165 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: and sixteen thirties, precisely as you mentioned, with those rivalries 166 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: between the French and the English around this radical theory 167 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: of blood circulation. So hearing about how so many discovery 168 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: and advancements were going on in the Serena in England, 169 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: how is it that France is where the first blood 170 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: transfusion experiments with humans of taking place. That's what we 171 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: really wanted to know. How did that switch happen? And 172 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: she tells us a little bit more about that here. 173 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: So when William Harvey discovers blood circulation in sixteen um 174 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: that will slowly start the English too ponder what this 175 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: means and also want to confirm it. So men like 176 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: Christopher Wren, who we associate mostly as the great architect 177 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: of London, and Thomas will Willis, who we associates one 178 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: of the first people to do neurological studies, they engage 179 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: Harvey's idea of blood circulation as a way to um 180 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: see how how blood moves to the body and specifically 181 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: how it moves to the brain and doesn't move into 182 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: the brain, and so they're able to confirm Harvey's theory 183 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: and it's nothing but a theory at this point by 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: doing infusion studies. So they begin injecting animals, in particular 185 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: with any birth fluids, right, um, beer, wine, opium. And 186 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: the thought is is if Harvey is right and blood 187 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: makes this one way trip to the heart, is that 188 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: these drugs in an animal system won't have a lasting 189 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: effect because they'll be burned off immediately. But they start 190 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: to see that their animals are dying, they're sick, they're drunk. 191 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: So Harvey must have been onto something. Now the French 192 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: are watching with a bit of disgust, you know, it's 193 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: it's it's what the English are doing. Um. The English 194 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: um tend to be pretty radical. They're also fighting it 195 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: out on the battlefield. The French and the English have 196 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: experienced a long history of animosities and rivalries, so it 197 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: doesn't make a lot of sense. You're absolutely right that 198 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: the first human blood transfusion would be done in France 199 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: because they're so resistant. Well, what happens is that the 200 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: English start to move from circulation to infusion to transfusion, 201 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: because it makes sense if they finally started to think 202 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: about putting things into animals blood systems. Of course, maybe 203 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: what they want to do is to test it out 204 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: by transfusing the blood of one animal into another. And 205 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: that catches the attention of a man named Jean Baptiste Any, 206 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: a Frenchman who was not part of that French elite 207 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: that is so hostile to Harvey's theories of blood circulation 208 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: and also to the English more generally, because he wasn't 209 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: trained in Paris. Paris is the seat of traditional thinking. 210 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: It's this it's the place where all of the best 211 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: doctors go to train, and that training at the University 212 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: of Paris Medical School is a traditional training that is 213 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: built around Galen and Hippocrates. There's no room for any 214 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: thinking outside of that. But Denny was trained at the 215 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: rival school in the south of France in Montpellier, which 216 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: attracted more Protestants, and that also was more open to 217 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: um a coming, more open to Paracelsus, who was one 218 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: of the great alchemists, and more adventurous in a way. 219 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: So Denny learns of the English transfusion experiments and he 220 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: is now in Paris and wants desperately to make a 221 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: name for himself, and as someone who is not noble born, 222 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: he's actually from a very um modest family who was 223 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: not trained in Paris. The best way for him to 224 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: make a name for himself is to do what any 225 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: two year old would do, is to throw temper tantrum 226 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: and do that very thing that the that the parents 227 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: don't want the child to do, which is to engage 228 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: in one of the most distasteful types of experiments, and 229 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: that would be the blood transfusion experiments. And that's he 230 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: ends up replicating all of the English uh transfusion, animal 231 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: transfusion experiments and then um, just as the English we're 232 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: getting ready to perform their first human experiments, Deny scoops 233 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: them essentially does his own. So. Holly Tucker's book contains 234 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: a lot of details that pertain to class or status, 235 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: especially regarding its primary protagonist, Jean Peptiste de ni Now 236 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: we're talking. She includes details like people's clothing, their education, um, 237 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: the most minute things you wouldn't even think about, the 238 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: curtains on their carriage exactly. So we wanted to know 239 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: from her what role did class play in the story 240 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: about science and here's what she had to say. Oh, classes, 241 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, everywhere, UM, one's ability to move through 242 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: society UM depended on both your money and your status. 243 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: In early France, we're at a moment particularly as well, 244 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: when Louis the fourteenth, the great son king who created Versailles, 245 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: of course, is in the process of strengthening his monarchy. 246 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: This he's doing this largely and in response to what 247 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: had been a horrific moment in France following the religious 248 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: wars between the Catholics and the Protestants UM in the 249 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: late sixteenth century. France also saw civil wars in the 250 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: early seventeenth century. So Louis the fourteenth comes in as 251 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: monarch and really wants to consolidate the power. And the 252 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: best way to consolidate power, right is to reaffies to 253 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: strengthen class structures. So he moves all of the nobles 254 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: out of Versailles where he can keep an eye on 255 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: them so they won't want to weaken the monarchy. And 256 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: the best way to keep an eye on them is 257 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: to UM create these rituals all around the king and 258 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: the king's body, so that the mont the nobility. At 259 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: this point, they're really fighting for each other, fighting for 260 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: the right one to be recognized in society and to 261 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: to be able to to be frank, to be able 262 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: to hold the king's um chamber pot So, so you know, 263 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: in this context the early beginnings of modern science UM 264 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: are beginning to form. Louis the fourteenth also, um is 265 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the idea that science, up until his reign, 266 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: had been localized primarily in private academies. So Deni's work 267 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: is actually financed by a very wealthy nobleman who four 268 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: years had attracted sciences brightest luminaries, Christian Huygens, who discovered rings, 269 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the rings around Saturn. He just he announced that discovery 270 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: in um moment was his name, Mamo's academy. UM. Mama 271 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: tried to um recruit Renee dick Hart into his academy 272 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: and ended up settling for Decartes's rival, Pierre Gassondie. So 273 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: what happens right as as Denis is doing these blood transfusions, 274 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: he is getting supported by a man whose private academ 275 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: me had essentially been gutted by Louis the Fourteenth's decision 276 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: to move science into the state and to create the 277 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: French Academy of sciences. So there are, as you mentioned, 278 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: there are so many cultural and economic restraints on science 279 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: that Denis is really um renegade in many many ways 280 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: because he is budding against the the tide, if you will, 281 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: the political tides of the time. So I found the 282 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: figure of more More the Nobleman to be a really 283 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: fascinating part of the book, especially the limits that he 284 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: went to to try to establish, re establish his prestigious 285 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: the head of a private academy, going against going up 286 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: against the Sun King himself. And it's not as though 287 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: he's subtle about it either. Some of these blood experiments 288 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 1: are taking place in his own home in the center 289 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: of Paris. So we want to to hear from Holly 290 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: about where these other transfusions were happening all over the city, 291 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: who was observing them, and just what they were like. 292 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: I mean, what the nitty gritty of a seventeenth century 293 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: blood transfusion was really like. And here's what she had 294 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: to say. Um, most of these experiments from Harvey well 295 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: into the English experiments in the Royal Society, and then 296 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: of course Denise legendary and uh ill fated experiments on humans. 297 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: They're being done in private homes and uh I can't help. 298 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: But each time I go to Paris for people who 299 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: are in Paris. And if you stand in front of 300 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: the fountain at uh Sammy shed and you look down 301 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: the Sin towards the Louver on the left bank, there 302 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: are a few big buildings, Denny would have done those 303 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: in one of those buildings he would have also he 304 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: we know he did. He did very public experiments on 305 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: the banks of the Sin. So if you ever have 306 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: a chance to walk along the river in Paris, you 307 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: can imagine these well attended animal to animals, specifically dog 308 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: to dog experiments on the bank of the Scent, because 309 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: he moved it out of his own home into the 310 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: public realm as a way to get attention. Now as 311 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: the English are doing many of these in their own homes, 312 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: and Denia is doing this in his um, his residence 313 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: as well, on the bank of the banks of the Sin. 314 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: Louis the fourteenth creates the Academy of Sciences at the 315 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: very same time and then commissions his natural philosophers as 316 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: scientists were called to perform replications of the English experiments 317 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: in his library on the on the right bank, and 318 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: so there is one of the first times that we 319 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: see scientific experiments being done not just in a royal 320 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: context but in the king's own library, and the tools 321 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: that they were using, as you can imagine, we're really 322 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: quite rudimentary to do these experiment mints. All you would 323 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: really need, and for the moment we can talk about 324 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: the the animal experiments, all you would really need is 325 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: a big table onto which you could strap the animals 326 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: and a blood letting bowl for each of the animals, 327 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: and then some form of tubing. And the tubing was 328 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: again rudimentary. In the English experiments, they were using goose quills, right, 329 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: so they would slip a goose quill into the vein 330 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: or the artery of an animal, slip another goose quill 331 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: into the vein an artery of of of the donor 332 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: of the recipient, and then link those two together. The 333 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: English began creating metal tubes um and the and the 334 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: French decided they wanted to trump them, and they actually 335 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: did a double intake tube in the Academy of French 336 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: Academy of Sciences, where they could do transfusions that were simultaneous, 337 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: so uh the dog would be a recipient and a 338 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: donor at the same time. So in theory. The blood 339 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: would be flowing in two ways, um through the different 340 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: through the two tubes of the animals, so they were 341 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: really quite simplistic. You also needed a fireplace because you 342 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: wanted to keep the animals warm um and also keep 343 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: the blood warm so would continue flowing because blood clouding, 344 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: of course, was a huge problem in these experiments. Another 345 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: interesting aspect of the story is that Denny didn't just 346 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: perform one blood transfusion that caused all this controversy. He 347 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: had three very different subjects, which are sort of interesting 348 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: case studies in their own right. Tucker talks about them 349 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: a little bit more here. Denny did three experiments in 350 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: the end. The first was with a young boy who 351 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: had been feverish for about a month, and we're not 352 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: clear on how he found out about this boy. We're 353 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: also not clear on how he got the mother to 354 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: agree to let him perform a transfusion on her son. 355 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: But one thing we are sure of is that Denny 356 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: um transfused Lamb's blood into the boy's arteries. I'm sorry 357 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: to the boy's veins, and the boy did fine. He 358 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: didn't die. And that was the main criterion for success, right, 359 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: is whether there was death or not. Now the fever 360 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: was reduced, the boy was still very tired. Afterwards. We 361 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: suspect that there was a blood transfusion of blood in 362 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: compatibility reaction, but nothing huge. And people always ask, how 363 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: is it that someone could survive this? How could this 364 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: young boys survive this? There are three criteria for um 365 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: hemolytic reactions, so blood transfusion and compatibility reactions. The first 366 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: is how fast the blood goes in, And they're using 367 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: very again, rudimentary tools, so the blood is likely not 368 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: moving very fast because it's also clotting. So first, how 369 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: fast the blood moves in how much again not very 370 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: fast because it's clotting, not very much because it's clotting. 371 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: And then the third criteria is criterion is whether there's 372 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: been previous exposure. Of course, the boy had no previous 373 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: exposure to Lamb's blood, so it didn't move fast. There 374 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot, and there had been no previous exposure. 375 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: And when you talk to um immunologists, they'll tell you 376 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: that the human body can really take a lot of 377 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: insult um. And there's no surprise among the physicians that 378 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: I consulted for this book that the boy could have 379 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: survived this. Now the second one is interesting because it's 380 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: here there is absolutely no therapeutic interest. It's purely experimental. 381 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: Is Deny Then, for the second transfusion, moves to a 382 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: butcher and I can't be sure, but I think the 383 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: butcher was the same butcher provided the sheep for the 384 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: first one, because the butcher in the first experiment was 385 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: really lively, very funny, gregarious um, and the butcher in 386 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: the second experiment um is the same um, same attitude. 387 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: In fact, after the blood transfusion, and of course the 388 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: sheep is is dead, he goes, hey, what are you 389 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: gonna do with that? You can I take it home, Um, 390 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: either to sell it or to eat it. And Denis says, well, yeah, 391 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: sure we know that. In the second case, is that 392 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: the butcher was paid because Denny, after the experiment, is 393 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: feeling pretty good about himself, is walking through the streets 394 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: of his neighborhood and looks into a tavern. For some 395 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: reason catches his eye and he sees his butcher that 396 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: he just transfused, drunk as a skunk, and storms the 397 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: tavern to yell at his patients, saying, what are you 398 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: doing well? The the gregarious Butcher throws his arms around 399 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: Denny and says, look at me, I'm feeling great. And 400 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: the Butcher's friends, I'll say, hey, you know, give me 401 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: one of these transfusions, give me some money. And so 402 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: he now has not only not killed his patients, but 403 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: he's creating the name for himself that he desperately wants 404 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: to have, and he has patients ready willing and lined 405 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: up the third transfusion. Interestingly, he doesn't reach for any 406 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: of those volunteers. But with the nobleman Beaumour, who was 407 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: financing his experiments, they decided that the next step then 408 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: would be to take the most famous man in Paris. 409 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: In fact, the most notoriously famous man in Paris, um 410 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: man named Antoine Moroix, who ran the streets regularly naked, delirious. 411 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: Um He was considered the madman of the most elite 412 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: neighborhood of Paris. And they pluck him off of the streets, 413 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: of course, against his will, tie him up, and transfuse 414 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: him with interestingly, not lambs blood this time, but uh, 415 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: cow blood, and the first transfusion goes pretty well. Um 416 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: Maroi is calmed. Now it was likely he was just 417 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: very sick, but he's calmed down. They decided to try 418 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: a second one. He's even more calm likely even more 419 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: sick um, and they end up sending him home to 420 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: this hovel of village shock that he lives in, back 421 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: to his wife and uh. Later a few months later, 422 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: the wife comes storming to denise door and says, my 423 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: husband's at it again. He is delusional, he's going crazy. 424 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: You need to transfuse him with with blood again. And Denny, 425 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: of course, esus is a wonderful opportunity to try it again. 426 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: He goes out to the village, begins to transfusion um mahroa, 427 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: begins having seizures. It's not clear whether and how much 428 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: blood may have been transfused, and the next day the 429 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: man is dead and Denise will later be called up 430 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: on murder charges. So this is where the mystery really begins, 431 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: the one that Holly is trying to solve throughout the 432 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: course of this book. The madman has been murdered. But 433 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: why what were the motives behind this crime? We didn't 434 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: want to give away the who done it aspect of it, 435 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: because why would you want to read the book if 436 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: we did that? But we did want to get a 437 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: little bit more into who might have done it, And 438 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: here's what she had to say, Well, the motives actually 439 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: go back to a question that I know a lot 440 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: of people ask when they hear the story, is why 441 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: in the world were they're using animal blood? Right? And 442 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: that is actually at the heart of the murder charges essentially, 443 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: and the and the outcome of this. For transfusionists like 444 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: Denny and for many of the transfusionists in England, it 445 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: made perfect sense because animal flesh and fluid had long 446 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: been used for therapeutics. So if I going back to 447 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: the humors, if I was feeling overly, overly cold as 448 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: far as you know, being very flummy in the humoral sense, 449 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: I might reach for a raw steak, big glass of 450 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: wine um to be able to bolster my system. The 451 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: same thing with fruits and vegetables. It's very It's very 452 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: interesting is that all different types of conception manuals um 453 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: will tell you that if you want to have a 454 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: baby boy, baby boys are men are considered humorally to 455 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: be hot. What you would do is is reach for 456 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: things like staged testicles and you would dry them and 457 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: powder them and sprinkle them on your food as a 458 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: way to bolster your humorl system is to make your 459 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: body hotter so than when it came time to conceive, 460 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: and be more likely to conceive a boy. So animals 461 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: had long been used as as medicine essentially. And there's 462 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: a second element is that there's a man named Rene Descartes, 463 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: a philosopher in the sixteen thirties. Of course he's famous 464 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: to us now, because all we have to do is 465 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: say Descartes, I think therefore I am de cart put forth. 466 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: A radical theory is that animal bodies and human bodies 467 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: are identical. They function more or less like machines. The 468 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: only difference between animals, to decart the only difference between 469 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: animal and human bodies is that humans can speak, they 470 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: can reason, and they have souls. And Descartes says, all 471 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: of those attributes that make as human actually are not 472 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: lodged at all in the body. Now, it was highly contested. 473 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: Descartes spent much of his life in Holland in exile 474 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: because his theories of blood circulation was a radical theory. 475 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: So was descartes idea. So it was thought that if 476 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: de cart is right, then transfusing animal blood into humans 477 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: would be little more than changing the oil in a car. Right, 478 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: But the fear is what if de cart is wrong? 479 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: What if there's something in animal blood that is specifically animal, 480 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: and what if animals have souls? What if all of 481 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: that is in this red fluid and we're now moving 482 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: into humans. Could humans begin taking on animal attributes and 483 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: then vice versa. If we start to move human blood 484 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: into animals, could science now have the means to create 485 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: through blood transfusion, through blood transfere could it? Could it 486 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: create hybrid species? Monster ers? That was a frightening proposition, right, 487 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: It seems ridiculous to us, but at the time the 488 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: greatest thinkers were terrified of that prospect, and Dennie needed 489 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: to be stopped. So at the heart of um the 490 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: Murder Trial is that there was a plot essentially um 491 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 1: as I, as I uncover in the book. Deni was 492 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: acquitted of murder, but it was clear that the patient 493 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: had been murdered by Arsenic with the help of three physicians, 494 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: and so I spent a lot of time trying to 495 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: figure out what in the world that would mean. And 496 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: sure enough, with a speculation that possibly this, this fear 497 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: of hybrid species was underlying it all, and sure enough 498 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: once I was able to uncover the the murderers. It's 499 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: it's glaring is that they set Dennie up as a 500 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: way to to save the human species. It's a noble cause, 501 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: isn't it. So finally, when we were kind of wrapping 502 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: up our interview, we're gonna have a part two as well, 503 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: by the way, But when we were wrapping up our interview, 504 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: we told Holly that one of these episodes would be 505 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: the culmination of our October Halloween series, because, after all, 506 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: blood and monsters pretty great combo. And she was amused 507 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: by that, unfortunately, and offered one last take on this 508 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: tale of medicine and murder, which we thought was really fun. 509 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: I think we have a tendency to look at look 510 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: at scientists both as being very important in making all 511 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: these great breakthroughs, but there's always this deep fear that 512 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: underlying underlying all science and then the hearts of scientists 513 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: is this deep you know, Dr Jekyl Frankenstein element, which 514 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it's true, but Jean Baptiste 515 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: den essentially represents that as well as he's he's questing 516 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: for the greatest answers of of nature. But at the 517 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: same time, could he be um ruining the human species? 518 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: Um So he's some thing of an early example of 519 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: Dr Frankenstein, if you will. So there you have at Frankenstein. 520 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't get anymore HALLOWEENI than that. And Dr Chucklin Mr. 521 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: Hyde a pretty great spooky combo. So it was really 522 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: fun to talk to Holly about the book and the 523 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: story behind the book, but we also wanted to hear 524 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: some about how she went about researching it, how she 525 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: went about solving that cold case. And we're saving that 526 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: part for a second half of this interview, so you 527 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: can tune in and a couple of weeks maybe and 528 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: check out that. And it's just exciting as the other stuff, 529 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: if not more. It really is. It is like Super 530 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: Adventures and the Archives essentially, with a little bit of 531 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: frustration in there too. But we hope we've given you 532 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: a little bit about Blood to go on in case 533 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: you're planning your Halloween costume for this here and blood 534 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: is a part of it. I mean, if you go 535 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: out and pick up the book in time, you might 536 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: even be able to incorporate some of the details from 537 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: it and your costume. Maybe you'll go as William Harvey 538 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: buy some goose quills, yes, but we wouldn't recommend trying 539 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: any of these experiments at home, although they might have 540 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: done that in the seventeenth century. But if you do 541 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: get a chance to pick up the book, we'd like to, 542 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: As we did with the McCulla book recently, we'd like 543 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: to start a little discussion of it. Please hit us 544 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: up on social media. We're on Facebook or on Twitter 545 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: at Miston History, or you can always email us at 546 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: History Podcast at how stuff works dot com. We'd love 547 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: to get a little discussion going about what you like 548 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: about the book, um, what was surprising to you, or 549 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: if there's anything else you just want to know about 550 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: blood or blood circulation or blood transfusions. Please write to 551 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: us and we will try to find the answers for you, 552 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,959 Speaker 1: but they may be answered in the next episode, so 553 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: you might went away, so stay tuned and UM. In 554 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: the meantime, you can go and check out medical type 555 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: topics on our own website at www dot how stuff 556 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: works dot com. Be sure to check out our new 557 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how stu Work 558 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: staff off as we explore the most promising and perplexing 559 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: possibilities of tomorrow. The House of Works iPhone app has 560 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 1: a ride. Download it today on iTunes, M