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Speaker 1: Hey everyone. Quick disclaimer at the top. In this conversation

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Speaker 1: with Jordan's Harbinger, there may be strong language that is

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Speaker 1: not appropriate for all members of the audience. We immensely

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Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation, and we hope that you do too.

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Speaker 1: Just wanted to give you a quick heads up. With

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Speaker 1: that in mind, let's dive in. From UFOs to psychic

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Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.

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Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is Noel. They called me Ben. We're joined as

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Speaker 1: always with our superproducer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson.

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Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that

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Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Folks.

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Speaker 1: Opening question, what's the strangest place you've ever visited? How

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Speaker 1: did the reality jibe with your expectations? Here's another fun one,

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Speaker 1: have you ever spoken with a spy? If you have

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Speaker 1: ever considered any of these questions, fellow listeners, than oh boy,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, do we have something special for you today.

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Speaker 1: We are joined with the author lawyer, thought leader, world traveler,

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Speaker 1: the creator of the Jordan Harbinger Show, The One and

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Speaker 1: Only Jordan Harbinger. Jordan, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us today. Thanks for having me on. Although I technically

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Speaker 1: have not written anything that has ever been public, well

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Speaker 1: that's not true. I published some stuff on blogs. That

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Speaker 1: makes me an author, right, You ever written like a

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Speaker 1: note on the back of a cocktail napkin? You know,

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Speaker 1: mostly yes, phone numbers mostly, but that counts. I mean

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Speaker 1: somebody had to when somebody had to write it down,

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Speaker 1: I gotta ask you really quickly. Have people ever asked

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Speaker 1: you like, if your last name refers to being the

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Speaker 1: harbinger of like the apocalypse or doing something like this,

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Speaker 1: this is a harbinger of a good time? They're usually

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Speaker 1: there's a negative connotation to it, and I've always wondered,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, who came up with that. It's some metal

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Speaker 1: band came up with it, probably in the seventies, and

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Speaker 1: it was just like, you're never gonna have anybody think

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Speaker 1: that you're good when you walk in the room. That's now.

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Speaker 1: Now we have to thank you for the nominative determinism.

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Speaker 1: They're right, like, how someone with the last name toothman

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Speaker 1: maybe a bit more statistically likely to be a dentist.

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Speaker 1: One of the first questions we had to ask you,

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Speaker 1: Jordan's is it weird for you to be on the

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Speaker 1: other side of an interview conversation given that you have

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Speaker 1: interviewed so many people over the course of your career. Uh?

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Speaker 1: Like what, I think it's a little early to check

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Speaker 1: in and say, how are we doing? Man? But yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're just a good experience for you to be on

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Speaker 1: the other side. So far, so good. Yeah, except for

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Speaker 1: that author thing. I don't know what you guys are

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Speaker 1: thinking about that one. But beyond beyond that, this has

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Speaker 1: been great. Yeah. I actually enjoy interviews where I'm the

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Speaker 1: subject because I realized I didn't have to read a

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Speaker 1: book in preparation for this one. I just had to

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Speaker 1: show up, which is nice. That's how that's I've got

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Speaker 1: that going for me. Which is so if a toothman

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Speaker 1: is more likely statistically to become a dentist, I am

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Speaker 1: I more statistically likely to be like the anti Christ

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Speaker 1: or something of the times. Perhaps you know, well, guys,

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Speaker 1: because you know housekeeping note, English, especially the dialect we

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Speaker 1: speak here, is a living language, so it's really up

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Speaker 1: to us what that surname will mean, right, and this

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Speaker 1: is uh. We were working on so much research because

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Speaker 1: there's so many questions we want to get to in

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Speaker 1: today's interview. A lot of people may not be fully

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Speaker 1: aware of your background, Jordan's you started in law school.

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Speaker 1: We're talking. You are a fellow alum with our producer

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Speaker 1: codenamed Doc Holiday. And it was startling to me that

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Speaker 1: during your time in law school you launched your first podcast.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, that I launched my first show,

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Speaker 1: which shall remain nameless because they always try and assuming

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Speaker 1: when I mentioned them, even if I don't say anything bad. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Well that's what happens when you do a show for

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Speaker 1: eleven years and you're like, I want to change everything

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Speaker 1: about this business, and then your business partners are like no,

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Speaker 1: but but also you're fired because you want to leave.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you can, You're fired. It was literally the and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, okay, and then I was sad,

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Speaker 1: but then I was like, wait a minute, this is

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Speaker 1: the best thing that ever happened to me. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I launched. The first podcast was in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: the one that I did. The first podcast I did,

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Speaker 1: it was two thousand and six. It was like November December.

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Speaker 1: It's not far off from the first podcast kind of

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Speaker 1: era right there. Ever, Yeah, yeah, I I I do

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Speaker 1: looking back now, and I'm like, man, only it was

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Speaker 1: like me and Adam Curry and a couple of other

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Speaker 1: people that are probably still in business this Weekend Tech

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Speaker 1: or whatever, those guys, and that was it. I mean

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Speaker 1: it was it was kind of exclusively nerds only. Now

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Speaker 1: it's like only maybe nine nerds maybe, I think. So.

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Speaker 1: Really we're really just running the gamut to expanding here

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Speaker 1: in podcast. Yeah, and we're the we're the old House

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Speaker 1: Stuff works crew of like the Nerdy Nerdy website. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we've been like sixteen fifteen years doing that nerdy Nerds stuff.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really cool. No one tell our bosses

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Speaker 1: we get paid is as soon as accounting finds out,

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Speaker 1: it's over for us. Guys. Were we were just at

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Speaker 1: a podcast conference and someone made the joke of like

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Speaker 1: we were in podcasting back before it was cool, to

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Speaker 1: which someone replied, it's still not cool. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: a living, that's for sure. But well, you can get

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Speaker 1: a lot of cool people to talk with you if

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Speaker 1: you were if you know, you're you're making a really

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Speaker 1: cool show and in your case, like it's what you're

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Speaker 1: using your time to do. You're you're making the world

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Speaker 1: a better place by getting insight from these people you

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Speaker 1: speak to. Man, some of the conversations you've had, Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's one in particular that was just teased at the

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Speaker 1: end of an episode where you're speaking about your time

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Speaker 1: in the DPRK and gosh, I can't even tell you

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Speaker 1: off the top of my head who it was, but

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Speaker 1: it was a spy, somebody who worked with the CIA

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Speaker 1: to develop tech. It was one of the coolest sounding conversations.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't have time to listen to it, but

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to listen to it. And was it

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Speaker 1: if it was it a woman that I was talking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so I think that might have been. And I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm having a brain fart here, but she was John A. Mendez, right,

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Speaker 1: So she was the head of the CIA's I can't

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Speaker 1: remember exactly, but they have to do with costumes and technology,

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Speaker 1: and she was in Moscow in the eighties and so

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Speaker 1: this is like they're the only Americans with chief enemy

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Speaker 1: in the middle of Moscow, and so they were doing

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Speaker 1: things like making a car are that had a person, uh,

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Speaker 1: that dummy that would pop up and down so they

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Speaker 1: could trick the KGB into thinking that they had picked

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Speaker 1: someone up or dropped someone off when they hadn't. Has

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Speaker 1: to look super real and also has to be able

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Speaker 1: to like fold down and be completely invisible. When the

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Speaker 1: cops inevitably say who's in the car with you, they're like,

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Speaker 1: no one, And they're like, does damn Americans, they must

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Speaker 1: have left let someone out of the cards. So then

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Speaker 1: they they're on this crazy chase around back alleys of Moscow,

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Speaker 1: and they're doing it to just mess with these guys

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Speaker 1: so that when they do eventually need to x filtrate someone,

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Speaker 1: they're like, it's that stupid car dummy thing again. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: there's like someone sewn into the car seat driving out

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Speaker 1: of And we have to point out ex fil trade

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Speaker 1: for anyone listening at home unfamiliar with the term means

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Speaker 1: to safely get some get an asset or someone out

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Speaker 1: of the environment of operation. And I want to step

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Speaker 1: back here just for a second. Jordan's Uh, when we

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Speaker 1: we talked just briefly about your first few podcasts, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this has all kind of culminated in the evolution of

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Speaker 1: the show you do now where you interview, as Matt

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Speaker 1: just alluded to, not just celebrities, not just athletes, but

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Speaker 1: actual spies, actual defectors, And I think a lot the

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Speaker 1: reason I'm using the word culmination, the reason I'm using

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Speaker 1: the word evolution is because looking back, it seems to

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Speaker 1: me that this has built upon the skills you have

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Speaker 1: honed in your previous iterations to your previous explorations. So

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Speaker 1: one of the questions that people are gonna want to

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Speaker 1: hear on this show what they want to hear it

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Speaker 1: answered you as a modern renaissance man. You have expertise

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Speaker 1: and critical thinking, networking, social engineering as well. Uh where

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you get this all the time. But what

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Speaker 1: what leads you to find a person that you want

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Speaker 1: to speak to? How do you contact them? And have

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Speaker 1: you ever gotten in a hairy situation doing so? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so just do you mean show booking basically? Like? Well, so,

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I actually got in trust.

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Speaker 1: This will surprise no one. I got in trouble all

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Speaker 1: the time because I was always interested in things that

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Speaker 1: were kind of esoteric slash forbidden. So when I was

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Speaker 1: really young, I figured out how to open those green

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Speaker 1: phone boxes on the side of the road, and I

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Speaker 1: made a phone that you could essentially clip in there

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Speaker 1: and eavesdrop on conversations, which didn't It didn't occur to

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Speaker 1: me that that was completely illegal and that I would

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Speaker 1: have gotten real trouble for that. But I started to

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Speaker 1: listen to a lot of my neighbor Yeah, my neighbor's

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Speaker 1: phone conversations for hours at a time. I was an

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Speaker 1: only child in TV. You know, it gets boring, especially

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Speaker 1: if your parents won't spring for cable, But listening to

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Speaker 1: a neighbor or talk about his divorce really was interesting.

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Speaker 1: So I started to get interested in a lot of

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Speaker 1: those like hacker. We called it freaking right, like the

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Speaker 1: phone hacking type stuff back in the nineties. pH of

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Speaker 1: course you hit't shot everything, that's right. Every everything started

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Speaker 1: the pH uh in that community, that's everything was a

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Speaker 1: f sound right because of the phone. And so that

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Speaker 1: was a really interesting niche for me to be in,

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Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed that. But I realized after a

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Speaker 1: while I enjoyed the social engineering aspects more than the

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Speaker 1: hacking aspects or the technical aspects and the engineering, and

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Speaker 1: so I focused on that, and then I also realized, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even as interested in the security elements of

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Speaker 1: the social engineering stuff. I'm more interested in the human element.

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Speaker 1: And then that led to networking, which was as a

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Speaker 1: corporate skill which I knew I was going to need

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Speaker 1: as an attorney, which I practiced for a little while,

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Speaker 1: went to law school, and then I realized it wasn't

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Speaker 1: even I wasn't even interested in the corporate stuff. I

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Speaker 1: was just interested in the conversations. And as I started

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Speaker 1: teaching this networking class at the University of Michigan to

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Speaker 1: law students, I started to realize I was interested in

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Speaker 1: body language, persuasion, nonverbal communication, things like that. So I

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Speaker 1: still had that interest in esoteric or forbidden stuff, but

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Speaker 1: as applied to social engineering or the human element. But

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Speaker 1: then also like what, I was like, what I what

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Speaker 1: am I gonna do? I'm not interested. I'm not even

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Speaker 1: interested in the law. I'm interested in people. And it

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Speaker 1: was like, should I just go back and get a

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Speaker 1: PhD in psychology? And as I started doing the podcast

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Speaker 1: to do for for the course, because I wanted to

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Speaker 1: record my quote unquote lectures and have them somewhere, I

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Speaker 1: turned it into a show and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is so fun, maybe I should just do a radio

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Speaker 1: show about this stuff went to serious XM Satellite Radio

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Speaker 1: kept doing the podcast. But to your question, how do

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Speaker 1: I book people? Because I'm really good at staying on topic,

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Speaker 1: as you can sell. I just find people that are

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Speaker 1: interesting to me personally, and then I do this sort

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Speaker 1: of sanity check, like, Okay, what percentage of my audience

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Speaker 1: do I think will be into this? And if if

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Speaker 1: it's less than ten percent, I don't do it because

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Speaker 1: that usually means a lot. That usually means less than

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Speaker 1: thirty and I'm just being kind about something that I

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Speaker 1: really like. So like when when you mentioned before Matt

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Speaker 1: interviewing defectors from North Korea as the DPRK, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I know that people are going to be interested in

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Speaker 1: that because it is objectively just something we don't hear

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Speaker 1: about that is interesting for a lot of people, even

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Speaker 1: if people don't think they're going to be interested in it,

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Speaker 1: and that that's kind of my rule. Is it interesting

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Speaker 1: to me? If yes, which percentage? What percentage of that

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Speaker 1: is going to be interesting to other people, whether they

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Speaker 1: know it at the moment or not. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to survey and go how many people want to hear

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Speaker 1: from a defector from North Korea because people go, I

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Speaker 1: don't care. I don't even know what it is. But

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Speaker 1: then when they hear the story, right, yeah, what is that?

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Speaker 1: I don't care? Are like my friends from Korea? I

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Speaker 1: think he's not that interesting, And it's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: how about this guy who escaped twice, you know, worked

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Speaker 1: in under underground stuff. Now he helps smuggle refugees. You

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Speaker 1: tell the story and people go, Okay, that was fucking interesting,

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Speaker 1: like period. And so I think one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I've always been good at, even as a kid,

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Speaker 1: is finding stuff that people go that exists, Holy sh it,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know that existed, and then getting into

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But but keeping it true. You know,

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Speaker 1: there is a line at which, and especially true and podcasting,

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Speaker 1: where it's like aliens built the pyramids, man, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: can we just keep there's enough true that's interesting in

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Speaker 1: the world. We don't have to just make stuff up anymore.

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Speaker 1: Like that's not only that. If you find that, if

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Speaker 1: you find that gateway in with the big you know,

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Speaker 1: like um explosive kind of entry point, you're gonna have

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Speaker 1: people that are going to branch out and ask more

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Speaker 1: questions even after they leave the interview. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's sort of like a low key way of educating people,

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Speaker 1: you know, when they maybe don't even realize that's what's happening.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's why podcasting can be great. If

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Speaker 1: you can pull people in with something that's larger than life.

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Speaker 1: Then sometimes they leave knowing about the nuances of international

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Speaker 1: affairs or something that maybe they wouldn't have, you know,

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Speaker 1: dipped their toe in otherwise. Yeah, I agree. I think

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Speaker 1: I call it hiding the broccoli, you know, because I

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Speaker 1: have little kids. If I want to get them to

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Speaker 1: eat broccoli, they they'll do it now, But certainly in

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Speaker 1: the beginning, it's like, how about this cheesy cover, don't

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Speaker 1: worry about it, you know, like okay, and you're feeding

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Speaker 1: it to them and they're just eating it because they

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Speaker 1: think it's his like cheese whiz or whatever, because I'm

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Speaker 1: a terrible parent. But I do that with the audience too,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, oh that people need really do need

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Speaker 1: to learn about networking. It's good for your career. But

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Speaker 1: if you tell a bunch of twenty and thirty and

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Speaker 1: what even forty year olds Hey, we're gonna teach you networking.

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Speaker 1: They're like and funk off and they don't care. They're

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Speaker 1: not interested. Click the channel change. But if I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is a spy who's going to teach us about

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Speaker 1: how they develop assets, and then that person tells you

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Speaker 1: exactly what you would do if you were a lawyer

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Speaker 1: trying to develop new clients, except for it's in the

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Speaker 1: context of and there I was in Afghanistan with the

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Speaker 1: head of the Taliban local Taliban. It's the same stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's just told and taught in a much more interesting

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Speaker 1: way than someone is like and then put them in

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Speaker 1: your CRM system after you get their business card. It's

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Speaker 1: the same set of skills. Jordan's I'm gonna call this

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Speaker 1: interview Hyde the Broccoli because I think that's a I

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Speaker 1: think that's a great title for us. And there's full,

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Speaker 1: full disclosure all the cards on the table. One of

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Speaker 1: the things I know we're very excited to speak with

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Speaker 1: you about is your expertise in something that's often termed

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Speaker 1: dark tourism for lack of a better word. And you

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Speaker 1: know there are a lot of locals and state institutions

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Speaker 1: in those destinations who find that term objectionable. But one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really stood out to us, to

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Speaker 1: Matt Nolan myself is your experiences in the Democratic People's

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Speaker 1: Republic of Korea known as North Korea to westerners. And Uh,

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Speaker 1: there was a line you had and I think it's

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Speaker 1: episode uh four thirty five, first of a two parter.

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Speaker 1: You and your colleague Gabe Are you have this beautiful

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Speaker 1: line where you say, yeah, man, anytime someone has to

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Speaker 1: tell you how democratic their country is in the name,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a signal. But let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit, maybe about what what people mean when

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Speaker 1: they say dark tourism in general, and what drives you

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Speaker 1: to explore those sorts of play. Yeah, dark tourism. I

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Speaker 1: don't have a formal definition, but it's essentially when people

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Speaker 1: when normal people say I'm going on vacation, usually they

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Speaker 1: mean They're going to hit up a resort in the

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Speaker 1: Maldives and go scuba diving. They're going to hit a

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Speaker 1: beach in Hawaii or eat go on a food tour

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Speaker 1: of New York City and see the Statute of Liberty.

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Speaker 1: Maybe some of your more adventurous friends are going to

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Speaker 1: a resort somewhere in Turkey, right there. But most people,

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Speaker 1: just given the statistics, are not going I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get a visa that I have to bribe someone at

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Speaker 1: a bar in China, and then I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: to North Korea and do a tour of all these

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Speaker 1: very that has minders and that you're not allowed to

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Speaker 1: talk to anyone on you know, who's not in your group,

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Speaker 1: and go on this very controlled ops tour optics tour

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Speaker 1: of North Korea where they had it's it's not even

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Speaker 1: the least visited country in the world. I think that's

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Speaker 1: gonna be some other smaller place like Tonga, but it's

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Speaker 1: going to be or yeah, the Sentinel Islands, although I

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Speaker 1: think that's technically part of India are and but yet

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Speaker 1: most people don't go there. And like if they do

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Speaker 1: go on a tour of another place in Africa or

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Speaker 1: in certain parts of Africa, They're not going to Chibouti, right,

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Speaker 1: They're going to They're not going to some of these

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Speaker 1: sort of really sketchy type places that have an active

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Speaker 1: or not superactive war zone. They're not going to Eritrea.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to try and walk across the border

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Speaker 1: of Eritrea into Ethiopia. And none of that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: yet I I used to before having two kids, really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed that stuff. I still have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a I guess you'd call it like a dark tourism

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Speaker 1: booner for those places. But I also just I've come

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Speaker 1: closed a couple of times, and I've seen you you

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Speaker 1: see the news where people go, oh, it won't happen

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Speaker 1: to me, and then they end up it happens to them,

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Speaker 1: or just even worse now, people going to China and

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Speaker 1: getting arrested because they're Canadian and Canada is holding the

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Speaker 1: princess CEO of Huawei, and and so some guys spending

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Speaker 1: four years in in an absolute hell hole because he

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Speaker 1: has the wrong passport, and Chi Jin Pain wants to

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Speaker 1: send a message at the Chinese Communist Party wants to

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Speaker 1: send a message, and I'm like, I can't afford to

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Speaker 1: do that, because now it's not just like, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: not worth it, you know, It's it's just not worth it.

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Speaker 1: When you're in your twenties and your quote unquote invincible.

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Speaker 1: Sure you can go someplace and you're probably not gonna

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Speaker 1: step out of landmine and who cares. But now I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I'm not trying to get blown up or kidnapped

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Speaker 1: or show up on CNN wearing a blindfold or any

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Speaker 1: of that stuff. Now we're gonna pause here for word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors, hopefully not state sponsors, and we'll be back,

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Speaker 1: and we're back with Jordan's Well, let's talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the experiences you did have in the DPRK because

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Speaker 1: it is a two part episode. What did you say? Ben?

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Speaker 1: Four thirty five and I think four thirty nine are

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Speaker 1: two episodes of the Jordan Harmager Show that you can

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Speaker 1: listen to right now. It's part one. In part two,

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Speaker 1: really great conversation. I want to talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the common things that you noticed that exists. Items I

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Speaker 1: would say that exists in the average DPR case citizens

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Speaker 1: like home orforman wherever they live, specifically images, they the

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Speaker 1: images and the speaker. I really want to just tell

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Speaker 1: us about that. Sure. So what's funny is the DPR

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Speaker 1: North Korea is the opposite of your show title. It's

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Speaker 1: only stuff they want you to know, period, And if

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Speaker 1: you find out stuff they don't want you to know,

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Speaker 1: they're going to pretend like that ship is not even there.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you what I mean in a second.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that you do see that even your

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Speaker 1: guides will admit is in there is every home and

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Speaker 1: this is the most orwellian thing in the world. Uh,

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Speaker 1: every home that has electricity in North Korea has a

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Speaker 1: speaker in the wall and you cannot turn it off

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Speaker 1: and it broadcasts. I've asked about this the news in quotes,

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Speaker 1: air quotes, very strong bold air quotes. If you can't

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Speaker 1: see me right now, and what that news is, I've

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Speaker 1: asked because it sounds like an emergency, and all of

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Speaker 1: the news in North Korea sounds like an emergency, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, Oh, it's just the news. I'm thinking that

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Speaker 1: is an aggressive tone for the news. So I'll say,

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Speaker 1: what's what's in the news. Oh, it's about how we're

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Speaker 1: striving forward and really winning is a you know, communist

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Speaker 1: socialist paradise, and how the American imperialists are trying to

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Speaker 1: get us down by doing something that probably we haven't

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Speaker 1: done since the nineteen fifty whatever, the Korean War, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to strive and win under the great leadership

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Speaker 1: of Kim John Lue. And I'm like, that's every They

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Speaker 1: hear that every day, all that's on their speaker in

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Speaker 1: the morning. It wakes you up in the morning at

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Speaker 1: the time that you need to get up for work,

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Speaker 1: so there's no like sleeping in because that thing is blasting.

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Speaker 1: And again you cannot turn it off. You can turn

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Speaker 1: it down, but you cannot turn the volume off, so

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Speaker 1: you wake up to that. They play a little bit

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Speaker 1: of music in the morning. And I've heard it because

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Speaker 1: I've stayed at hotels that are in residential areas, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, have huge walls around them because you're

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Speaker 1: not allowed to go out and see other areas, but

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Speaker 1: you can hear it blast in the staff quarters. And

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Speaker 1: what's also very bizarre, and there's a lot of places

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Speaker 1: in North Korea that don't have electricity. No surprise, we've

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Speaker 1: all probably seen that graphic where it shows the South

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Speaker 1: Korea and then there's the d m Z and then

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Speaker 1: above it is just like there's a dot for where

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Speaker 1: Pyongyang is and the rest of the country is dark

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Speaker 1: from space. That is very real. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: places with no electricity in North Korea, So how do

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Speaker 1: they how do their speakers work? There's vans that will

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Speaker 1: roll up to villages and there they have these o

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Speaker 1: g sort of bullhorn loudspeakers on top, and they play

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Speaker 1: the music and the patriotic stuff in the news at

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Speaker 1: a specific time every day and then drives to the

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Speaker 1: next place or recharges the batteries or whatever, so you

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Speaker 1: hear it no matter what, even if you don't have

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Speaker 1: electricity or running water or freaking toilet, you're still getting

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Speaker 1: a full dose of propaganda. And and in hotels where

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Speaker 1: I've stayed in North Korea that are for tourists, I

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Speaker 1: I'm a snooper. So I started looking around and I

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Speaker 1: noticed that on the floor there is a quarter inch

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Speaker 1: audio jack and I'll hold up what would go in there?

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Speaker 1: For people that are not audio dorks like us? Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's basically a giant headphone jack. So it's gonna look

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Speaker 1: like this, but it's the whole for this, not the

427
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 1: actual pluck. And I'm like, what is that? So I

428
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 1: finally asked the tour guide what is that? What is that?

429
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: Do you have that in your room? And she goes, no,

430
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: I don't have that. And I say, do you have

431
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: a speaker in your room? And she goes, yeah, for

432
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: the news, and I'm like, that's what that is. So

433
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: when tourists are in there, they unplug it. But when

434
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: tourists are not in there and a local is in there,

435
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: they plug in the propaganda speaker and there it is.

436
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: So I've always thought, if I go back, I'm bringing

437
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: this exact thing, and maybe like a pair of headphones,

438
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 1: and I am going to have them playing so that

439
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: I can kind of hear them if I'm in the room,

440
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: but not really and maybe even just or like recorded

441
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: on my iPhone or something and play it into that.

442
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: But now I can't go back because I do shows

443
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: like this and I'm gonna end up freaking getting arrested.

444
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: Was gonna ask, but sorry that what were you gonna say?

445
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm just a really quick follow up to that, and

446
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: it just it's please feel free to shut me down completely, guys.

447
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: This is just my where my mind went when I

448
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: was listening to you talk about that on on the

449
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: podcast Jordan's Um. It got me thinking about the devices

450
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: we have perpetually attached to our hands, and I'm thinking

451
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: about what you're talking about with the human human intelligence,

452
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: human element of intelligence, and I was just wondering if

453
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: our tablets are you know, laptops, are all these things

454
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: are devices that we have always on constant access to

455
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: things like the news that were some things we would

456
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: consider the news and entertainment. Um, I'm wondering. I'm wondering

457
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: if we are on some strange level trained or I

458
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: don't know a better word for it, we're so accustomed

459
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: to using these devices and acclimated, yeah, to to feed

460
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 1: ourselves these things rather than it being fed to us,

461
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 1: and so on the nose of like what we're supposed

462
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: to believe in, what you know, we're what we're supposed

463
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 1: to think about, we like do it to ourselves, but

464
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: it's a little more under the radar of what the

465
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: actual messages. It's like that movie They Live where you know,

466
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: we're being advertised at all the time through all of

467
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: our news, whether it's news, entertainment or some combination of

468
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: the two. There's advertising, right, because everything's fed through advertising.

469
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: And I just wonder how much of that we're actually

470
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: doing to ourselves. With a more cultural message like don't think,

471
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: consume more work some more consume Yes, I don't know,

472
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: what do you think? I'm with you on that. I

473
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: was gonna interrupt you and do this episode sponsored by

474
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: Blue April Air like, but but you're right, so we

475
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: have consumers culture here. I think the main difference if

476
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: you're asking, because a lot of people go, yeah, man,

477
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: we're just like North Korea, but we don't even know.

478
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: But the thing is, we have a separate information spaces, right,

479
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: we can choose. You can choose, within a certain amount

480
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 1: of reason or a certain degree, what comes in on

481
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: that phone. You know, you can block your notifications. You

482
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: can say I'm not gonna read BuzzFeed, I'm sick of this,

483
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna read MSNBC, or I'm not gonna read

484
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: Fox Nage. Whatever you want. You can listen to podcasts

485
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: like this. You don't no one's forcing you, thankfully to

486
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: listen to like Rachel Mattau or Ben sha Bireau. Right,

487
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: where we can choose, we can choose. They cannot choose

488
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: the information space in a country like North Korea or

489
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: even in its CCP controlled China. Frankly, they have a

490
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: different information space that is highly that is completely controlled

491
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: by the state period and you there aren't other personalities

492
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: that you can trust more than the state leadership that

493
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: that there's not different types of information that you can consume. So, yes,

494
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: we have our phones. The thing is you are free.

495
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: So in so much as you believe in free will

496
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: to turn that thing off and go, you know, I'll

497
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: turn it on in the afternoon or I'm not going

498
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: to be in my email. North Koreans literally don't have

499
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: that option, even from schooling. I've gone to schools in

500
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: North Korea just to check it out, like the nice

501
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: ones where the I guess you'd call them like kids

502
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: the leaders probably are attending, and we saw their little

503
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: like music thing and their dance thing, and we got

504
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: to ask them questions, which is through the translator and

505
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: the guide, and of course only select students could answer them.

506
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: That's how that whole thing is. But we would say,

507
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: what what is your favorite subject? Oh, my favorite subject

508
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: is poetry. And I'm like that's so random. I'm wondering,

509
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: like what are you writing? She goes, oh, no, we

510
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: don't really write them. We just read them and perform them.

511
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, that's okay, very North Korean

512
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: to like not create something of your your own. What's

513
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: your favorite poem? And she would deliver this like crazy

514
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: passionate poem and I'm like, this girl's really talented and

515
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: loves that poem, and I go, what is that about?

516
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: To the guide and she and they they go, what

517
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: is that about? And she goes, it's about how our

518
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: great leader is going to deliver us from all of

519
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: the our enemies that are oppressing our country, and how

520
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: amazing our country is and how we're gonna have record

521
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: grain harvests. And I was like, she's fucking kidding, right, Nope,

522
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: that's what the poem was about. Obviously just written by

523
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: like some Stalinist propagandist, but years ago, but they were

524
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: paid to do so. It's full time. So so in

525
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: a degree, you could say for a Western analog, you

526
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: could say maybe when there's a single space, uh, single

527
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: information space, love that term, Jordan's when there's no real

528
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: Overton window right of what is where, what is able

529
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: to be discussed? Everything is sponsored content and there's only

530
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: one sponsor. I've got to say, like a thing that

531
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: surprised me. I've been to uh the border of r

532
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: o K Republic of Korea, South Korea and DPRK multiple times.

533
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: I haven't gone on the tour yet because uh, like

534
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: you with DPRK, I probably have some customs clearing issues

535
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 1: in PRC nowadays. Uh, But one thing that startled me,

536
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: and I think It's something a lot of people missing

537
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: these conversations. Is there there is also propaganda on the

538
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: r O K side, on the South Korean side, Could

539
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: you describe a little bit of what that experience is

540
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: like for people I'm familiar, so I don't know much

541
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: about South Korea because I've actually never been there, but

542
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: I would say that, which is funny because everyone's like, wait, what,

543
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: you went to the hard Korea, not the easy one.

544
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: That's like, why would you do that to yourself? Uh,

545
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: that's more of a dark tourist. I'm like, I can

546
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: go to South Korea when I'm sixty five, you know,

547
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: that's hand. It's gonna be like I can walk over

548
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: with my the entire family, the kids. Yeah, we're gonna

549
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: go to South Korea. North Korea is kind of like

550
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: you do that before you have any real responsibility to

551
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 1: come home in one piece. We definitely have propaganda over here,

552
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,239
Speaker 1: and I don't think anybody's sort of well, maybe there

553
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: are some people that deny that, or they try and

554
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: do semantic arguments about how we don't have that. Of

555
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: course we have that. If we didn't, we would have

556
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: a lot more reasonable dialogue inside this country because we

557
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't be like, but freedom. It's like terrorists don't hate

558
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: our freedom. I mean a little bit, yes, but not

559
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: that's not like the reason nine eleven happened, right, it's

560
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: not because they're like freedom sucks, um. That's that's a

561
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: very small part of it, and they're not. Their definition

562
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: of freedom is not the same one that we have

563
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: right when they're when they're complaining. South Korea definitely has.

564
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: I mean South Korea was and this is sort of

565
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: surprising for me to learn as well, that was kind

566
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: of a hard core military dictatorship all the way up

567
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: until I want to say to eighties or even the

568
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: mid eighties, and my wife's family there from Taiwan, and

569
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, Taiwan so free. Look at that

570
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: economy China up until like eighty nine. That place was

571
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: also like don't say anything of the secret police will

572
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: come to your house and throw you into prison, and

573
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: it's not fair, and there's a military tribunal and it's

574
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: under like a very iron hand of the KMT party

575
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: Chang Kai check type. These are not nice places to live.

576
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: And part of that is the result of what happens

577
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: after a war, when the war is still kind of

578
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: going on, at least in the minds of the leadership

579
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: and the propagandists. Right, it's very much Cold War, but

580
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of like they're more six minutes to Bid

581
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: Night than the US and the Soviet Union probably ever were.

582
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: They're kind of in perpetual Cuban miss Cuban missile crisis

583
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: level of of of fighting or warfare. So are Okay,

584
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: had a lot of people that we're just taught that

585
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: the well, first of all, the United States was not

586
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: super beloved there because soldiers have go out in like

587
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: rape girls that were on their way to school. That

588
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: didn't make us look good. They and and that's what

589
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: North Korean propaganda will say all the time, you know,

590
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: the South Korean government, they're just puppets of the United States.

591
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, this is so nonsensical, And

592
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: then I would start reading history and I'm like, Okay,

593
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: it's actually not that nonsensical. It's just outdated. You know,

594
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: if this was from nineteen seventy nine, what's written in

595
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: here probably not that much of an exaggeration, except for

596
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: now it's two thousand and thirteen, and this hasn't been

597
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: going on like this for thirty years. But who No,

598
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: no one in North Korea is going to know that

599
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: because they are stuck in nineteen fifty five at the latest.

600
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: And even in terms of dress and the way that

601
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: they speak and the movies that they watched and things

602
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: like that. Um, they really don't have a lot of that,

603
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: and even a lot of the technology. I was there,

604
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: uh several times when I work first went there, nobody

605
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: had mobile phones. Literally no one uh. And and like

606
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: tour guides from the UK who live in China, they

607
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: had mobile phones that didn't do anything but call the

608
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: hotel to tell us, tell them we're on away, or

609
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: maybe call for some other thing. Now when you go there,

610
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: or at least as of a few years ago, quote unquote,

611
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: normal people have cell phones. But I will tell you

612
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: these are like those no keyas from two thousand and

613
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: one that have snake on them. They and they can't

614
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: dial out of the country. They can only dial in

615
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: the country, and they have sort of like there's no internet,

616
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: there's just intra net that's inside your Korean They're reliable

617
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: as hell. Jordans. Those phones, Yeah, you can put them underwater,

618
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: those ones where yeah, you can like use them to

619
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: bash your way out of the car. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

620
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: I gotta ask you though, you know, with all this

621
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: conversation around propaganda and access and lack of access to

622
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: information without singling anybody out or anything like here in

623
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: this country, it does all this talk about you know,

624
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: the North Korean people not having the choice you know,

625
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: of of which propaganda they would like to to enjoy. Uh,

626
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: it really makes me even more grumpy at the folks

627
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: here in this country, you know, for lack of a

628
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: better word, not it too heated about it choosing the

629
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: propaganda that they choose. Yeah, it's just really so that's

630
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: the worst of you have no choice and it's being

631
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: shoved down your throat at the penalty of death. It's

632
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: like you willingly listen to this idiot, what's wrong with you?

633
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: Like you're actually tuning into info Wars because you want

634
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: to like, how how dare you? Shame? Shame on you?

635
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: Come on? And I listened to an episode that you

636
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: did about you know, fake news and the nature of

637
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: propaganda with another CIA analysts who was very very CI analysts. Yeah,

638
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: so I just wonder, how do you how do you

639
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: correlate that with that with that experience that we see

640
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: with fake news, and is fake news the same thing

641
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: as propaganda? Are they achieving the same end results? Or

642
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: is one a more high you know, high tech or

643
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: like more advanced version of the other. Yeah, I think

644
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: I think when I think propaganda, I think more state

645
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: sponsored propaganda. But really, what is marketing and advertising if

646
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: not propagation it for a specific company. I mean we

647
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: when we say you know that Casper Mattress was so soft,

648
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: I love it and you can get I mean, we

649
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: are basically propagandizing for the thing is it's very it's

650
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: transparent because the FTC in the United States is make essay.

651
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: By the way, they gave me money to say this.

652
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: That said, I did use it and I like it,

653
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: and you could do it as well, and it will

654
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: support the show. That's a little different than saying these

655
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: are the facts and there's no debate around it, and

656
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: this is what the science says about this. So I

657
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: am a little bit I I do. I do understand

658
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: what you mean, uh, and I do I also do

659
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: get a little bit. I guess triggered is probably the

660
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: best word when I'm like, why if you can choose

661
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: to watch or listen to anything, do you choose the

662
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: set of facts that's making you the most miserable and

663
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: is just objectively, verifiably not not true. And so it's frustrating.

664
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: That's an education issue. UH. And I think what you're

665
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: maybe it sounds like what you're saying is in a

666
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: place where you can choose to be educated about something else,

667
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: Why are you choosing to be ignorant deliberately in a

668
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: way and then funnel some thing into your head? Yeah,

669
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: it is frustrating. Look, I love that you put it

670
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: this way because I actually I singled out the episode

671
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: the Fake News Interview from Jordan Harbinger Show in our

672
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: notes because this is this is a commonality that our

673
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: shows have together, the application and importance of critical thought. Uh.

674
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: And this is this is something that I think we

675
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: quarrel with. First off, Jordan's I love that you absolutely

676
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: drew a very close Venn diagram between advertising and propaganda.

677
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: It's sort of like, what's the difference between lobbying and bribery.

678
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: That's a weird one to explain to your friends. Totally right,

679
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: So this this question, and I um I urge anybody

680
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: listening today, UH to check out your interview with Cindy Uh. Cineodas. Uh,

681
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: this question is something that can be really difficult to

682
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: answer for for you as UH, as a student of

683
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: media discourse in the modern day, What can our fellow

684
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: listeners do to try to suss out the miss and

685
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: disinformation from the objective communication? I'm thinking, Oh, I gotta

686
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: pull the rug real quick. For American listeners, the Smith

687
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: Munth Act, which for many years UH did not allow

688
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: Uncle Sam to push propaganda onto domestic audiences. It got

689
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: pulled in. So if you're if you're hearing this, it's

690
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: already happened. How do people how do you get to

691
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: um the truth amid all the noise? Yeah, well there's

692
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: this is a huge topic, of course, and I'm not

693
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: gonna be able to do it justice like Cindy did

694
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: on on the show on my show. She's a disinformation

695
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: expert ironically from the Central Intelligence Agency formally anyway, Uh,

696
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: somebody told this a long time ago, and they really

697
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: nailed it. If you think about something that you know

698
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: a lot about, let's say podcasting for for any one

699
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: of us, and then you read an article about it

700
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: in some the Wall Street Journal, but it's not written

701
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: by Ashley Carmen, who writes about podcasting, right, it's written

702
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 1: by some random journalists, and they get all these little

703
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: things wrong, and you think like, oh, that's not right,

704
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 1: that's not right, that's not right, and or this other

705
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: thing is this big thing is not right. That's how

706
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: media is with literally every other topic that you're consuming.

707
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: So to believe that they got everything wrong about underwater

708
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: basket weaving or whatever expert the thing that you're expert in,

709
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: but they definitely got it right when it comes to

710
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: whether or not one side of the aisle or the

711
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: other side of the aisle or this other country is

712
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: doing X y Z. It's like, well, that's interesting. They're

713
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: wrong about this thing you know a lot about, but

714
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: that you just thinking about percent right about everything else

715
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: that you consume from them. So when you start to

716
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: realize that they're probably equally if not more, wrong about

717
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: everything that you are not familiar enough with to criticize,

718
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: then you can start looking for better materials. So the

719
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: rule for me is, if I read something that's an

720
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: emotional headline or an emotional piece that gets me fired

721
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: up in some way, it's been written that way deliberately

722
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: to get that reaction out of me, So I always

723
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: try and take a deep breath before sharing it, before

724
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: taking action on it, because it's probably designed for the

725
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: social media algorithm for shares, clicks, likes, and whatever, versus

726
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: to inform me about something that is accurate. Right, Yeah,

727
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: always yeah, or owns so and so own as this

728
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: other person, right, and it's like got it, um, that's

729
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: just a YouTube hit or whatever. As a Reddit user,

730
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: I love to look at an article, go into the comments,

731
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: and you always has Reddit as it always isn't read it.

732
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: There's always somebody that's like, you'll read something that's like

733
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: semiconductor breakthrough da China, and then someone at the top

734
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: common is, yeah, I work in semi conductors and have

735
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: for thirty years. This is not actually a breakthrough. This

736
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: is them getting to where the United States was like

737
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: nineteen nine, except for I bet you just knowing what

738
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: I know about semiconductors, which is like everything compared to

739
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: everybody else who's reading this article, and even the person

740
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: who wrote it, he's like one in thirty of those

741
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: things works out of the box, except to test them

742
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: it would take longer than and so you're just getting

743
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: this massive explanation about how this this thing it's supposed

744
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: to scare Americans because China had some breakthrough and they're

745
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: shipping chips to Russian weapon manufacturers. It's just like, slow down.

746
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: This thing is probably garbage if it's even real, and

747
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: also probably doesn't ever work, and if it does, it's

748
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: gonna like get cold and not work anymore. And you're like, Okay,

749
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: that's I probably don't have to worry about this. You know,

750
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: if I'm reading more about this over and over and

751
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: over and it seems like it's written by people that

752
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: actually know what they're talking about, then I can start

753
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: to worry about it. But when it's just another Tuesday

754
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: on Reddit or just another Tuesday on the news, this

755
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: is almost dollars to donuts a bunch of nonsense. And

756
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: then if it's a big enough subject, you can go

757
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: to a place like Snopes, where people will dig and

758
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: dig and dig and research and research and research, and

759
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: they will debunk or at least clarify really large, large claims,

760
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: and you'll find out that maybe it's not true, or

761
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: half of it's not true, or it's completely misleading. And

762
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: I like to do that because and I do that

763
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: whenever I feel emotionally triggered by something because chances are

764
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: that that article or headline was written to get that

765
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: reaction from me and from other people, and that makes

766
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: it a lot easier. Also, people say, how do you

767
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: stay informed when you're reading the news aside from my

768
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: little reddit John's, I really don't engage in the news,

769
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: and they'll go, well, but what you know so much

770
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: about so many different things? I read books about them

771
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: because books take years to write. Articles take twenty minutes

772
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: from an a or nothing from an AI robot now

773
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: to write, and so most articles and so if I

774
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: read a book about something like semiconductors in China and

775
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: the United States, it's going to be well thought out, cited.

776
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: There's gonna be counter arguments from other people. The reviews

777
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: on Amazon are going to tell me if it's a

778
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: bunch of bullshit or not. If I'm reading an article

779
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: on the Daily Wire about some of my conductors in

780
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: China or an MSNBC in China, it's written with a

781
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: certain perspective and it's almost certainly designed to just get

782
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: me to click on stuff or share it because I'm

783
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: angry or scared. We're gonna take a quick moment here

784
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: our sponsors words and then come back with more words

785
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: with Jordan's and we're back with more from Jordan's. All right,

786
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: I want to stay on this topic. And yes, because

787
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: I heard you name drop somebody in one of the

788
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: episodes I listened to for this, um, are you friends

789
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: with Neil Strauss, author of Rules of the Game bunch others? Yeah,

790
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: him and I go way, way way back. Yeah, okay,

791
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: that's awesome. We we happened to know him through Tenderfoot

792
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: TV because of his show on the first trip that

793
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: I lead. Actually, I want to kind of bring this together.

794
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: That sounds right. That sounds right. So you and he

795
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: share this interest in the kinds of games that they're

796
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: not really game strategies, maybe that we can play on

797
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: each other as humans to kind of hack the way

798
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: our brains function and the way we perceive people, the

799
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: way we react to people, and those kinds of things.

800
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's anything you could share with our

801
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: audience just about everyday interactions that we're having out in

802
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: the world where perhaps our minds are getting taken advantage

803
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: of by somebody. Good question. Look, usually, so this is

804
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: a tricky one because of course this happens all the time.

805
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's not just you know, people say like, oh,

806
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: it's sales people are doing this. Okay, fine, The best

807
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: people are that do this are salespeople and con artists generally,

808
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: and your significant other. Now they're doing different things for

809
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: different reasons. But our children, children are also really good

810
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: at this. Master persuaders, master manipulators. Some do it for

811
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: their own agenda, Some do it because they think they're

812
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: being altruistic. They're not. Other people are doing it to

813
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: destroy you because they get a perverse pleasure out of it, etcetera.

814
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: So while there's always a different agenda or a different

815
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: reason that these people are doing things, sometimes I think

816
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: it's okay. And and I'm obviously not talking about con

817
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: artists and manipulators and things like that. I think it's

818
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: okay to not have your guard up all of the

819
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: time for these types of things humans were if persuasion

820
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: was negative, we would have those people who are able

821
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: to be persuaded would have been out of the gene

822
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: pool well before podcasting technology allowed us to have this conversation.

823
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people who avoid human

824
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 1: interaction or they they are paranoid about what everybody wants

825
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: from them, and things like that. It's helpful to realize

826
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: that the thing that allows you in many ways to

827
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: be taken advantage of, that element of trust that you

828
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: tend to give to people is actually an adaptive characteristic

829
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: that's good for you. And I can't remember who I

830
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: talked about this with a couple of people and it's

831
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: been a while now, but it's actually better to trust

832
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: other people. But it's Malcolm Gladwell. It's better to trust

833
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: other people just as you normally would in society, even

834
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: if you get taken advantage of sometimes, because the benefits

835
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: of being a person that can develop and maintain trust

836
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: in relationships is actually those actually far out way the downside. Now, look,

837
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: if you get murdered by a serial killer, I know

838
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: that's dark, but like you, we're talking about dark consequence.

839
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: That's bad, you know, So you do have to have

840
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: some common sense about you. I'm not saying hitchhike around

841
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: because you'll save on gas and probably nothing's gonna happen

842
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: to you. What I am saying is there's a lot

843
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: of folks out there that will be like, you can't

844
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: trust anyone. You've got to go into a relationship with

845
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: a default, you know, zero some kind of mindset, and

846
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: you really should not do that. You should actually be

847
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,240
Speaker 1: more most people should be more trusting than they are,

848
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: even though you will get taken advantage of. That is

849
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: a fact of life. The social network that you build,

850
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: the friendships that you create and maintain, the opportunities that

851
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: you find will actually outweigh if you trust people and

852
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: maintain those relationships, will outweigh the damage you suffer as

853
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: a result of not doing so. And I think that

854
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: is while sort of meta and thirty thousand foot is,

855
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: really it's a really important point because Niel Strauss and

856
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: I we used to be like, oh, you got to

857
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: do this in that and body language in nonmorable communication

858
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: and this and that and you can tell if they're lying.

859
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: None of that really was that would all added up

860
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: to like five percent of human interactions or one percent

861
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: of human interactions. And the big hack was confidently creating

862
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: and maintaining large networks of friends and allies, because that

863
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: will take you much further than like knowing the right

864
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: thing to say, or like mastering hypnosis techniques. All that

865
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: stuff ends up really coming together to make you kind

866
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: of a weirdo. And I think we him and I

867
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: both came to that conclusion earlier. It's I know it

868
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: can be self limiting. What's that old proverb, If you

869
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: want to travel fast, go alone. If you want to

870
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: travel far, go with others. I'm paraphrasing. But the this

871
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: this leads us to something else that I think is

872
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: probably one of the speaking of meta Jordan's one of

873
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: the underlying missions of both of our endeavors here in

874
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: good old podcast Land, and that is the exercise of

875
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: critical thought, which, just like physical exercise, can be challenging

876
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: at times. Right like our our brains want us to

877
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: find stuff that already confirms what we agreed with earlier,

878
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes you don't want to show up to that gym

879
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: of of discourse and thought. When you talk about critical thinking,

880
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people throw the term around right,

881
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: sometimes for good, sometimes for ill. Certainly subreddits love it right.

882
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: But by one of the questions that for you is

883
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: what is your philosophy regarding critical thought? And how would

884
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: you say, not to trick you into a crash course

885
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: for us, but how would you say people can start

886
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: applying critical thought? Two things, What's what's the challenge there?

887
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: What's the benefit? Sure? So critical thinking? Yeah, crash course

888
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: in just a few minutes is not possible, and it's

889
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: it's really hard to remember all these But I would

890
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: love to give a couple of things, I guess quick

891
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: tips if you will, that I use all the time,

892
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: aside from the when I read something and get triggered,

893
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: what is that tell me? That's sort of that's data

894
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: that I can use. The other thing is, whenever I

895
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: want to argue with somebody about something, I will try,

896
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: not necessarily verbally doing this, but I will try arguing

897
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: against myself. I will and I will argue their side

898
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: of the argument, and then I will try and figure

899
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: out why they are right. And I'm not trying to

900
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: figure out why they are right and then secretly figure

901
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: out why they're wrong. I'm actually trying to figure out

902
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: why they're right. Most people try and figure out why

903
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: somebody else is wrong. If you try and figure out

904
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: why somebody else is right, it's sort of it takes

905
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: down some of the guardrails in your mind about what

906
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: you're allowing in. As far as data, I wish I

907
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: could come up with an example here, but let's say

908
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,479
Speaker 1: you were arguing that climate change isn't it isn't real

909
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: and someone else is telling you that it is. If

910
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to find points that support my conclusion,

911
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: there's gonna that will be there, especially if I'm looking

912
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: on the Internet, which is not a source of truth

913
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: but more like a fun house mirror that just confirms

914
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: whatever I'm throwing at it. Right. Um, yes, it's a

915
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: lot wider than a fun house mirror. It's a it's

916
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: a fun house mirror so wide you don't know you're

917
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: looking into it because it's all you can see, right,

918
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: And it's a it's an information battleground so large you

919
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: don't know you're on it. As my friend says, So

920
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: arguing against yourself is great another thing, and this is

921
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: sort of the other side of the same coin as

922
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: the steel man. So the straw man is, oh, I'm

923
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: picking something where I can argue a semantic detail based

924
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: on the worst or weakest characterization of your argument. The

925
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: steel man is, let's assume one good intent on your

926
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: part and that all of your arguments that you say

927
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: are totally correct. Can I still poke holes in it

928
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: without poking holes in any of your assertions? And if

929
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: you can't, then you can start poking. Of course, then

930
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: you start looking at their evidence and evaluating it. But

931
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: a lot of times you'll find, especially if you're argument

932
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: against somebody who's just telling you something is complete nonsense,

933
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: you'll find that even if you assume all their premises

934
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: are correct, that's it's still you can't get there. It

935
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: can't be supported. And that's a stronger place to come

936
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: from if you say, if you say that, if that

937
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: person is a dick, so I don't believe anything they say,

938
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: straw that's not even a straw man. Let's add hominum fallacy.

939
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: But if we say, well he said this, but let's

940
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: admit it, that's probably not real. Come on that straw man,

941
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: or could be considered strong man. But if I say, hey,

942
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: this is let's assume these are all correct, well, but

943
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: then he didn't even address this other thing. You're just

944
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: gonna leave that out, And then that's your way into

945
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: this critical thinking that gets you away from well, I

946
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: just don't like him, or those people always say that,

947
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: or well whatever, he's an idiot, or oh yeah, isn't

948
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: that the guy who also said other dumb things through him?

949
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: You know, we do that a lot a lot when

950
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: we see arguments that we don't like and that's the

951
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: opposite of critical thinking. It's just we're trying to confirm

952
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: our own conclusions, our own bias, whatever you might see.

953
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: But unfortunately we don't even often see that because that's

954
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: how everyone's brain sort of naturally operates. So we are

955
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: not remember as humans, we are evolved to keep the

956
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: tribe together by thinking and acting and acting talking whatever,

957
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: the same way. We are not evolved to go to

958
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: be right. That is a secondary and not even a

959
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: close second kind of option. It's better for the whole

960
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: tribe to be just really really wrong but still stick together.

961
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: That it is for a couple of people in the

962
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: tribe to think one way and a couple of people

963
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: think another way, and everyone disagrees, but some of them

964
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: are right and some of them are wrong or somewhere

965
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: more right than others. That's how you die early in

966
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: the game as a tribe that needs to stick together.

967
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: So if you remember that you're actually evolved to be wrong,

968
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: but stick with the people that you like, where that

969
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: you know like and trust already, you can be more

970
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: right because you can start to fight those instincts by

971
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: using systems and techniques. Well, and it's also like I

972
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 1: mean the idea of basing every argument around why this

973
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: thought leader is the devil or why this person who

974
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: has this perspective or this group are the anti collective

975
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: anti Christ. It's not about facts, it's not about logic,

976
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: it's about mothering um. And I think that is where

977
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: we get this kind of mob mentality where you get

978
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: so caught up in like the the chase of it all,

979
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: that you don't even take a second to step back

980
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: and think if if any of the things that you're

981
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 1: saying or believing or make any sense. Yes, absolutely, because

982
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: again you're evolved not to even care if they make sense.

983
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: You know, if you're in if you're in a life

984
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: and death situation and there's five people around you, and

985
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: one person says, you know what, the guys on the

986
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 1: other side of the island, they're there. They stole something

987
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 1: from somebody that I know back in third grade, and

988
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: we gotta go over there and steal all their crap,

989
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: and we're gonna use it. We're gonna use that to survive.

990
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: You're like, that's a sound rationale. I'm gonna do that.

991
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: You know, you're not thinking, We'll wait a minute, Actually

992
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: that doesn't work, you know, it's really really hard to

993
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: do that because it is it's fundamentally against human nature

994
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: to do so. People who are maybe more rational balanced, uh,

995
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 1: like to evaluate evidence. Those people died tens of thousands

996
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: or hundreds of thousands of years. Those pre hominids were

997
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 1: like their brain was too active, and then they got

998
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: crunched by other people who were like, just shut up

999
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: and accept the party line. And Uh, this is where

1000
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: we have the moment together where you say, there's so

1001
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: much stuff that we haven't gotten to yet. Uh, Jordan's

1002
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: we are going to have to have you on in

1003
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: the future in the interest again, would love that of

1004
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:52,240
Speaker 1: transparency and disclosure. My man. We have we have lists

1005
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: of questions we have yet to touch. We might have

1006
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: to save them for a future appearance in the meantime.

1007
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, folks. Uh, you can tell we are fans

1008
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: of Jordan's show, and we hope you enjoy it at

1009
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: least some fraction of as much as we do. Jordan's

1010
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: where can people learn more about you your work? And uh,

1011
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you are at liberty to disclose, sir,

1012
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: what's next on the horizon? Sure? So it's a podcast

1013
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: that Jordan's Harbinger Show or Harbinger Show. I would love

1014
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 1: it if people came over there and gave it a shot. Otherwise,

1015
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm at Jordan Harbinger on all social media, you know, Instagram, Twitter.

1016
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: I love to hear from people. I'm happy to help

1017
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: you find episodes you think might be interesting if you

1018
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: want to check out the show. Oh, I made a

1019
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: start page Jordan Harbinger dot com slash start, and it

1020
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: has playlists of disinformation, cyber warfare, North Korea stuff, China stuff,

1021
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: just different topics because I know not everybody likes all

1022
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: those same nerdy stuff that I do. So Jordan Harbinger

1023
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: dot com, slash start and what's next on the horizon

1024
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 1: for me? You know, I I have. I am always

1025
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what would be the most interesting

1026
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: for my audience. But I think some of the ones

1027
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm excited, really excited about coming up. One is with

1028
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: this human rights lawyer who's talking about the genocide and Shinjiang,

1029
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: and he's really dystopian stuff. I mean, it's really really

1030
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: like an inside look at how Chinese, the Chinese Communist Party,

1031
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: the police, they put apps on your phone so they

1032
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: can track your whereabouts. I mean it is absolutely it's

1033
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: North Korea, but with technology in that province of China.

1034
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: I also did a show with an author named Matthew

1035
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: Campbell which is about how the high seas are just

1036
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: completely lawless and there's insurance fraud and there's piracy and

1037
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: nobody can do anything about it because who's gonna go

1038
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: thousands of miles off the coast of Yemen and try

1039
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: and be like that's insurance fraud. I mean, it's just

1040
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: really a fascinating look and he's really on the inside, Yes, exactly. Yeah,

1041
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: So I'm look, I got a lot of fun, fun

1042
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: air quotes shows like that on the rise in and

1043
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 1: I'm excited about it. You know that that stuff really

1044
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: keeps me going. I think podcasting is just like you

1045
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: said before, I can't believe I get paid for this,

1046
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: but I'm glad that I do because we really enjoy it.

1047
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I appreciate I'd love to come back.

1048
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: You guys are super fun to talk to you and

1049
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: I yeah, I would love to do it again. Absolutely,

1050
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: what a ride behind the scenes. Fellow conspiracy realist Jordan's

1051
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: Matt Noel and uh they called me been. We all

1052
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: ran out of time and we actually spent some time

1053
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: off air, uh, talking about all the stuff we didn't

1054
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: get to yet today. Uh No, no spoilers, But I

1055
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: don't say this every time, guys. Really, I enjoyed that one.

1056
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 1: I've been following this guy's work um as we were

1057
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: gearing up for this, and he's legit. I liked speaking

1058
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: to him very much. Good guy, very educated. Uh, very much.

1059
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: What is w parking in our same garage? Kind of

1060
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, conceptually speaking? Yeah, but what what Jordan does

1061
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: is this really interesting marketing school thing that you can

1062
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: take for free. I didn't know anything about until I

1063
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: started listening to the show. It seems like a pretty

1064
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: cool concept. I'm gonna look into it more. This is

1065
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: not a plug for that, Like I'm not telling you

1066
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: to do. I'm just letting you know I'm actually interested

1067
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: in that. Yeah, and uh we I well, I don't

1068
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 1: want to speak for you, guys. I checked out one

1069
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: of those courses and that's part of that's part of

1070
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: my calculus and saying, uh, Jordan's is legit uh and

1071
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: has stories to tell. He is speaking with spies, he

1072
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: is speaking with defectors. One person who defected not once,

1073
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: but twice from the d p r K. So we're

1074
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: not blowing smoke when we say check out his show.

1075
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: We're also not blowing smoke. Well, we say we want

1076
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Where is a place you've always

1077
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: dreamed of traveling? What are your strange experiences domestic or abroad.

1078
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: We can't wait to add your voice to the show,

1079
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: So help us out, folks. We try to be easy

1080
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: to find online. Oh, the Internet, We're all over that place.

1081
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: You can find this a conspiracy stuff to handle conspiracy

1082
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: stuff on Twitter, um, YouTube, and Facebook, where we have

1083
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: a Facebook group called Here's where it gets Crazy. Get

1084
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: it on the fun over there, share memes, meet the

1085
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: meet the people, meet the realists. They're all out there

1086
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: and they're waiting for you. Yes, you, We are also

1087
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. That's right. And if

1088
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: you like to use your phone to make phone calls,

1089
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: well why not call one eight three three st d

1090
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: w y t K. That's our voicemail system and you

1091
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: can leave a message. Please give yourself a cool nickname,

1092
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: like you know whatever. You I'm not even gonna give

1093
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: you a concept of an idea. You just come up

1094
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 1: with something conjurant from from whole cloth, and uh, tell

1095
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: us what your name is and then you've got three

1096
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: minutes say whatever you like. Please include whether or not

1097
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: you give us permission to use your name in voice

1098
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: on one of our episodes. And if you don't want

1099
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: to use your phone, we get it. Why not instead

1100
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: to send us a good old fashioned email. We are

1101
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want

1102
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio.

1103
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i

1104
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1105
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.