WEBVTT - Michael Oher Sues to End Conservatorship 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.239 Okay, Towey family, big smiles. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:22.040 Everyone and a one two three. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.279 Michael, Michael, come on down here and get in the 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:22.960 next one. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.079 You threaten my son. You threaten me. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.120 You so much is crossing to downtown. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:30.440 You will be sorry. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.839 I'm in a prayer group with a DA I'm a 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:33.959 member of the NRA. 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:35.320 And I'm always packing. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.000 In the movie The blind Side, Michael Orr's story has 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.000 a happy fairytale ending. He's part of the Towey family 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:44.080 who adopt him. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.440 We want to know if you would like to become 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:48.559 part of this family. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.360 Kind of thought I already was, But Or now says 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.720 that was fiction. Though the Tuys still refer to him 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.360 as their son, they never adopted him. Instead, Sean and 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:10.360 LeeAnne Toohey placed him in a conservatorship, which gave them 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.679 total control over his legal rights, like the ability to 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.800 enter into contracts and make medical decisions. That conservatorship started 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.440 when he was eighteen years old and remains in effect today. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.600 Nearly two decades later. Or is suing the Tooyes to 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.679 end the conservatorship and to get an accounting and his 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.520 share of money from the best selling book in film 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.440 based on his life. The Twoeys have denied any wrongdoing 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.920 and say they've treated or like a son. Joining me 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.319 is an expert in conservatorships, Jonathan Martinez, the Senior director 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.720 for Law and Policy in the Burton Blatt Institute at 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:53.200 Syracuse University. What's the most shocking thing to you about 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.680 this or conservatorship or isn't it shocking at all? 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.800 It's shocking, but not surprise what I've read about Michael 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.400 or what he has said about his situation. I just 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:08.920 literally recently read the blurb from his memoir where he 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.680 said he was told it was a quote unquote legal conservatorship, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.200 but told it was the same thing as becoming adopted 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.720 or becoming part of the family. Tells me that he 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.799 didn't know what he was agreeing to, that he didn't 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.480 understand what a conservatorship is, and maybe the family didn't 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.320 understand what a conservatorship is, and that's the problem. Far 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.960 too often, conservatorship or guardianship as it's called in other states, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.760 is done as a matter of convenience to make things easy, 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.200 when what it really does, by definition is removed people's rights. 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.880 Guardianship and conservatorship, and there is no problem with either 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.560 one of those when they're needed. By definition, takes your 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.079 rights away and gives them to someone else. And when 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.839 we say we're doing that because it's the same thing 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.080 as an adoption, it's not. Or if we're doing it 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:06.120 because it's easier than doing something else, it's not. Rights 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.560 are really precious things. The right to choose where and 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.120 how and with whom we live are the things that 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.880 make us who we are. So when I hear something 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.760 like I sign the paper because I was told it 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.320 was the best way or the easiest way, or I 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.640 was told it was the same as it's shocking, but 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:29.160 it's not surprising because I've heard it many many other times, 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.600 from judges, from lawyers, from families. It's just easier, and 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.080 it shouldn't be easy. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:40.840 To remove, right, So explain the difference between adoption and conservatorship. 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.400 The adoption, one person becomes the legal parent of someone else, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.440 and parents have certain rights when it comes to their children. 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.960 But when you adopt an adult, you don't get the 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.240 right to override their decisions. You just become known as 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.800 their mother or their father for legal purposes. If you 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.640 adopt a minor. That is very different if you adopt 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.040 a seventeen year old. Michael Orr was over eighteen, so 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.720 they would not have gained if they had adopted him, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.520 the right to make decisions for him or manage his 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.920 money without him having the right to say yes or no. 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.760 In a conservatorship or guardianship, what happens is a person becomes, 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.240 in a very real sense, the other person. Legally, if 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.719 I'm your guardian, I get the right to make decisions 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.760 for you. I'm the final decision maker. It's my say so, 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.320 whether or not you like it. If I'm an adult 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.920 and my mom is still my mom, she doesn't get 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.440 the right to make decisions for me if I don't 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.359 want her to do so. But if my mom was 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.680 my guardian or my conservator, she would have the right 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:45.760 to do that even if I didn't want her to. 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.240 The two weeys haven't filed an answer yet to the complaint, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.240 but in response they've said that lawyers told them at 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.840 the time they had to use a conservatorship, not an 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:00.240 adoption because Or was eighteen and also that but the 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.039 conservatorship was the quickest way to satisfy the NCAA's concerns. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.640 That the family was just steering him to their alma mater, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.719 oh Miss. But Tennessee law says eighteen year olds can 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.680 be adopted. It just requires the sworn, written consent of 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.600 the person sought to be adopted. 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.240 I wasn't there, I didn't hear the advice given. But 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.520 once again, this is hardly surprising. I've heard lawyers give 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.640 the advice to seek a guardianship or seek a conservatorship 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.040 because it's easier, because it's more convenient, because it's the 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.559 fastest way to do things, when what it really does 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.280 is remove people's right. What you've said about Tennessee law, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.680 that's also not surprising because adults can be adopted anywhere, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.320 So it doesn't surprise me that someone would receive the 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.200 advice to take the quickest path, and if in their 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.600 minds the quickest path was conservatorship. Again, it is shocking 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.640 that we in the year twenty twenty three, we'd be 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:04.279 giving people to remove someone else's legal rights because it's convenient. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.720 But that seems to be exactly what happened, and it 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:07.760 happens a lot. 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.960 For a conservatorship, Tennessee law requires evidence of a disability, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.719 and there was no evidence of a disability listed for 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:18.800 or should a judge have caught that. 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.320 There were stuck once again in the theory of a 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.080 conveyor belt, where judges will say, if no one objects, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.279 I'll sign this order. And no one objects, But the 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.920 answer to your question is yes. I speak with judges 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:37.120 a lot. I've lectured to judges, I have presented judicial conferences, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.440 and here's what I tell them about guardianship. I tell 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.440 the judges that you are the true guardians of the 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:49.000 law unintended. You have to make sure before you sign 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.880 that paper that everything is in order. You would not 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.359 enter an order that wasn't legally appropriate. In a different 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.640 kind of case, you would not convict someone of a 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.520 crime unlady, there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.080 when someone pleads guilty, the judge has to hold a 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.880 hearing to make sure that that lee is knowing and voluntary, 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.080 and if the judge doesn't think it is, the judge 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.680 has an obligation not to expect it. So judges in 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.080 guardianship cases, even when no one objects, in my opinion, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.760 have an obligation to make sure it's still appropriate for 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.800 guardianship or for conservatorship. I tell judges this. I tell 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.480 people this all the time. The most important question we 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.760 can ask before we agree that the guardianship is right 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.240 is this one. What else have you tried? Because in 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.520 ninety eight percent of cases, yes, a person in a coma, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.080 of course needs a guardian. A person at the end 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.240 stages of dementia, of course needs a guardian. I understand. 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.400 But a whole lot of the time, how do you 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.960 know that this is your only option? That a person 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.800 truly cannot make decisions or manage their own lives until 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.440 they've taken the time to examine and explore whether it's 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:06.000 something else that would preserve the person's rights might help. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.560 There are recognized alternatives that could help in a situation. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.880 They might help, they might not. If they wouldn't help, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.600 then guardianship and conservatorship are fine. But given the rights 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.400 at stake are the rights that you and I and 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.080 every American should hold, precious freedom of speech, freedom of association, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.640 and freedom to vote, freedom to marry, all of these 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.800 things that make us who we are, they're at stake 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.360 in a guardianship or conservatorship, And given that, shouldn't a 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.160 judge take that second to say, wait a second, I 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.520 know that everyone agrees that they want this, but is 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.360 this legally appropriate? I think that is the least the 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.439 judicial system can do in a case like this. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.160 When a defendant pleads guilty, the judge asks, are you 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.280 pleading of your own accord if you take the drugs? 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.560 Blah blah blah. Do they ask the prospective war do 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.840 you understand what you're giving up here? 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.000 I have seen these case is done entirely on paper. 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.200 The quick anecdote I can give you is there's a 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.720 phenomenon called a ghost guardianship where a person winds up 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.600 in guardianship without a hearing, sometimes not even notice. In 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.360 some states, that happens that we not only don't have 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.160 an inquiry, we don't even have the barest minimum of 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.680 an inquiry where even if the law says you're entitled 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.480 to notice as an opportunity to be heard. I have 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.880 done research where I have found have rural cases with 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.440 even that minimum didn't happen. So yes, and when asked, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.360 I have heard judges say I've heard people say, well, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.679 we're just trying to make it easier. This is a 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.840 parent who is trying to take care of someone, or 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.080 this is a caring friend who is trying to do 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.160 much best for someone. And I understand that the motivations 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.880 try to be helpful, But again, think about what's at stake. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.960 Shouldn't we have the barest minimum to make sure that 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.040 such an extreme remedy is right before. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:58.199 We do it. 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:00.400 I think I know your answer to this question, but 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.400 I'm going to ask you if this shocks you. In 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:07.240 Oors case, the judge who approved his conservatorship told Bloomberg 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.719 that no case papers ever crossed his desk after the 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:16.160 initial approval. So the conservators never filed annual accountings or 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.120 fiduciary or other court papers for nearly twenty years. Does 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:22.719 that surprise you? 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.080 No. I have a case very recently in another state 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:31.200 where we terminated the guardianship after over ten years because 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:33.800 no reports that have been filed. And by the way, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.280 the person have been putting guardianship in the first place 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.319 without such an inquiry and without such a hearing. So no, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.200 of course it happens. And here's are I'll be a 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.600 little sympathetic to courts. They are overwhelmed. They have lots 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.400 of paperwork they have to look at, they have lots 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.959 of cases before them, So it may be that they 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.840 don't notice that a report isn't filed. But on the 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.880 other hand, is this their obligation to notice? If the 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.560 laws says you must file annual accountings, and I know 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.040 it does, it doesn't ever say, God, I've booked up. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.959 Why does it say that if it's not being done. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.880 It is there to create that important safeguard. It is 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.480 there to create a backstop to make sure that at 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:19.920 all times guardianship remains appropriate, that conservatorship remains the right option. Well, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.360 if we're not looking at the papers, we're even looking 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.800 for the papers, where is that safeguard? 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.160 Or is seeking end the conservatorship and to require the 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:36.160 twoes to account for their actions? But an attorney representing 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.760 the twoe'es said they plan to enter a consent order 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:45.920 to end the conservatorship. What happens then to Ore's request 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.480 for an accounting? Will there be an accounting? 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.640 I don't know. You can say you hope so, But 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.760 I can give you a more concerning issue. If they're 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.480 willing to enter a consent order now that a conservatorship 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.360 wasn't required, doesn't that mean they know he doesn't need one? 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.160 And the question I would ask was when did they 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.520 know and how long have they known? And haven't they 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.359 always known? That's what I mean about rights being precious. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.720 It was the easiest thing to do to put him 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:20.280 in conservatorship, But that easy thing removed Michael Orr's rights. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.440 And if it's now so easy to enter a consent 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.640 decree to remove it, why were his rights removed in 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.480 the first place. Why do we have such a cavalier 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:34.640 attitude about a person's fundamental legal rights that we can 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.720 say at the drop of a hat, oh, I'll remove it. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.920 I'll remove the conservative ship, just like we said at 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.360 the drop of a hat, I'll remove those rights. Would 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.880 you want that to happen to you? Would you want 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.160 your rights to be so fragile that they could be 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.080 taken away at the drop of a hat and restored 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.959 at the drop of a hat. Shouldn't they be something 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.640 that is respected and protected the same way they's supposed 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:56.840 to be? 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.920 So he was in the fell for years and years 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.280 and made quite a lot of money. Any contract that 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.239 he signed. Would they have had to sign the contract 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:08.760 for him? 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.680 Once again, obviously I wasn't there, so I can't answer 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.200 what was done, and I can't answer how his conservatorship 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.720 specifically was set up. But if it is a standard 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.800 the conservatorship, which essentially removes person a's rights and gives 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.480 them to person B, then yes, the legal conservator would 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.440 stand in the place of the person and would be 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.840 ultimately the one who had to approve any legal documents. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.280 That's the way it should work, the way the laws 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.040 and to be written. I have no idea what happened 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:39.240 in his specific situation. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:44.559 And conservatorships in general, do they go on until someone 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.680 makes a move to put a stop to them. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.440 Yes. I tell people this all the time. When you 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.640 apply to be your child or your loved ones guardian, 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.439 our conservator, what you're really doing is inviting the court 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.040 into your life for the rest of that person's life 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.720 because you're suppose to give those reports, you were supposed 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.280 to do all of those things, and that guardianship or 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.440 conservatorship will continue until it is ended by you or 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.520 by someone else, or by the person. You have invited 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.160 the court and the court system into your life forever 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:15.000 until it's over. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:20.000 So he's asking for an accounting and also for compensatory 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.640 and punitive damages for their misconduct. Does that seem like 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:24.600 an uphill battle? 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.320 I've never heard of a person receiving damages because of 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.040 a conservatorship problem. I think it's an interesting concept. I'd 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.000 certainly like to see how it plays out. I haven't 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.280 read the lawsuit, so I can't tell you what theory 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.000 they're using for it. But if wrong was done, and 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.080 I have no idea if wrong was done, but if 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.640 this person was genuinely wrong, then shouldn't he have a 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.880 right to have an accounting both fiscal see how much 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.440 money was misused, and you know, emotional to have them 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.920 be accountable to him if they did wrong. I think 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.440 that's why we have courts systems, and I hope the 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:02.240 answer is found. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:07.680 Did the Britney Spears conservatorship bring light to this area 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:08.080 at all? 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.840 Absolutely? Absolutely it did. The Free Britney movement was huge 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.120 on castail light on the exact issue. I was talking 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.920 about that fundamental nature of guardianship and conservatorship and that question. 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.960 I said, we need to ask what else can we try? 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.400 Think about Britney Spears for a second. This is a 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:33.000 multi multi multimillionaire. If Britney Spears if had a disability 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.960 that prevented her from managing her own life, the question 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.880 would be where those disabilities are and what impacts they caused? 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.360 Did they make it impossible for her to manage her 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.720 money well given the resources she had? Instead of removing 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.240 her right to manage her money, couldn't they have set 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.480 up a system where she had an accountant or an 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.480 advisor or a fiscal manager to help her do that 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.200 rather than entirely removing her right to do so. If 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.360 the problems were around relationships, what therapy have been a 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.800 better option rather than jumping to removing her right to 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.200 decide what to do with her own body. So of 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.000 course it's shone a light on that, and I hope 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.040 those conversations continue because while the Britney Spears matter was 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.120 going on, people were paying attention, people were asking those questions. 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.400 You know, people I work with wanted to know, shouldn't 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.640 I be treated the same way as Britney Spears was. 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.400 In other words, there are lots and lots of people 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.440 who aren't pop stars who have lost their rights. Britney 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.440 got them back after a very long time. Other people 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.520 are asking why can't I have that same opportunity as 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.240 a pop star. So the short answer to your question 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.440 is yes. The longer answer is I hope it continues, 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.520 It's a conversation we need to have here. 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.760 The two weis are saying through their attorney that Or 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.520 attempted a shake down, and they have so much money 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.440 they don't need anymore. What kind of excuses do you 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.080 ordinarily hear in these cases? 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.120 I mean the vast majority of guardia it's coming involved money. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.320 I mean we hear about ones that do. We hear 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.400 about Britney Spears, We hear about Michael Or in New York, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.399 we hear about the artist Peter Mack. But the vast 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.200 majority of cases, the people who don't have that kind 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.200 of money. The people I represent and work with aren't rich. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.320 They're just people who've lost their rights. So the comeback 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.560 usually is, this person needs a guardian, needs a conservative, 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.840 this person has a disability to this person has this 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.160 or has that, or needs this or needs that. It's 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.800 for their own good. Those are the things I hear. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.879 I mean, the Michael Or case, the Britney Spears cases 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:38.200 are obviously higher profile because they involve famous people. They're 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.600 obviously higher profile because they involve people with money. But 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.119 I will tell you that ninety eight percent of the time, no, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.800 it's just someone who someone meant well and thought they 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.800 needed something that maybe they didn't need. And what the 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.359 argument comes down to is whether a person truly needs 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.480 a guardianship of conservativeship or ever did the heartbreaking cases 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.600 where a child is competing against the parents. A young 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.280 woman I've represented named Jenny Hatch who was the first 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.960 person to defeat a petition for guardianship a trial because 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.240 she uses an alternative called supported decision making. It's horror 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.480 family apart because her family thought she needed a guardian 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.639 she didn't. Ten years later, she is still living free 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.360 and showing the example of what can happen when people 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.240 are empowered to make their own decisions. That's a very 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.160 long way of saying which people do things differently, celebrities 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.399 do things differently. The reasons we hear in a Michael 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.320 Orr case are very different and the reasons we hear 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.760 in most cases. And I hope cases like Michael Orr 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.080 and like Britney Spears shine a lights that help all 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.359 those other people, the ones who ask what about me? 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.679 What about the situation in my life? Who's going to 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.280 pay attention to that when that happens, will have a 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:55.680 new day. 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.600 It seems like people are put into guardianships a lot 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.320 of the time, time quickly and by default. How difficult 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.840 is it to get out of a guardianship for the 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:07.119 normal average person? 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:13.320 Hard, It takes time is usually usually the way out 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.760 of a guardianship or a conservativeship. And I keep us 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.760 two terms of changeably, by the way, they essentially mean 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.600 the same thing. It just means what they call it 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.040 in that state in California and Tennessee where Britain's There's 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.040 and Michael Orrar they refer to it as conservativeship. Most 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.919 other states call it guardianship. When you hear those terms, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.320 just think one person giving the legal right to make 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.720 decisions for another. Usually the way out of those is 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.960 you have to show that you have quote unquote been 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:42.600 restored to competency, that you can now make decisions for 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.240 yourself and manage your own life for yourself. Well forever, 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.280 that term restored has kind of been viewed as cured, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.440 and if you have an intellectual disability, if you have 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:58.359 a development disability, down syndrome, intellectual disability, servebral palsy, you 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.240 don't get cured. So the thought was if you went 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.720 into guardianship or conservatorship at eighteen you're going to be 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.520 into the rest of your life. Some of the ways 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.520 that we have used to work with people, it's to 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.560 show they never should have been in the first place, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.240 that they've always had competency, or they've developed strategies and 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.720 support systems that give them that competency. But man, that 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.159 takes time. You have to have, usually an expert willing 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.520 to testify that this person can do it. Sometimes it 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.600 takes money. And again for the people I work with 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.120 and so many other people work with, that money isn't there. 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.280 We have to find other ways. So I tell people 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.119 the best way out is never to go in in 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.040 the first place, and if you want out, you have 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.920 to hope for a lot of good fortune and an 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.000 understanding judge. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.240 What seems really odd to me about this is that 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.080 the conservatorship has been in effect for nearly two decades 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.520 and the two'es never sought to unwind it. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.320 That's the biggest question for me. If they were just 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:08.679 never going to bother unwinding until it got spotlighted, what 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.320 does that say about the attitude towards this person's right. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.080 They didn't think about it. If we give them the 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.840 best of motivations, they just didn't think about it. They thought, 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.359 you know, this is what's good for him, or we 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.000 never got around to unwinding it because no one ever 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:30.199 asked for me. Every guardian and every consertor's obligation and 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.560 this is written in most walls, by the way, is 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:36.040 to help the person, not just make decisions for the person, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.520 but maximize that person's opportunities to make decisions, help that 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:46.399 person regain abilities or gain the abilities. And then if 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.639 the person has done it, if there comes a time 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.240 when the person no longer needs it. And certainly that 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.720 sounds like the family knew the situation in Michael Lare 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.359 because they're so willing to get rid of it. Well, 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.280 when you realize it's not needed, shouldn't your obligation to 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:01.960 be to go back to that judge you signed the 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.200 order in the first place and say, good news, Judge, 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.880 I did my job. Now you can fire me. If 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.399 we looked at guardianship of conservoship that way, you'd have 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.359 no bigger fan than me. Because some people do need 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.080 that level of assistance until they get it. Some people 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:23.119 do need extra support until they get it. What a 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.480 great system it would be if we would be able 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.359 to give people that support, and when they no longer 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.760