1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeart Radio, and welcome to 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: another edition of them in this book club. Ya, it's 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: our first for the year, right, it is. It is. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: We're starting out very strong in our pick. I think personally, 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: what do you think, Itty? I agree? I think this 7 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: was a This was a great pick and it was 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: like just so educational and it it really devetailed well 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: with the things we had been talking about the end. 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: So it's true. It's true. Yeah, as in fact last year, 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: as in about a month ago, someone to use this 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 1: term on me, not too long ago, and it made 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: me go, what, why would you say it that way? 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: That's all misleading. Anyway, We did an amazing interview with 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: god to Junior Fox where we talked about her documentary 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: With Out a Whisper, which followed the holding a Shawnee 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: Clan uh and their history and their role in the 18 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: Suffragette movement. Um Dr Sally Roche Wagner has been researching 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: and documenting the history for years now and was a 20 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: part of that conversation with the Mohawk Clan mother at 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: the time. If you haven't seen that documentary. Please go 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: check it out. It's an amazing educational opportunity as well 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: as if your teachers or someone who wants to educate 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: younger generations, this is a must watch. Um and. Dr 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: Wagner was one of the first to be awarded where 26 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: the doctorate for her work in women's studies, and was 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: also one of the first to found a college level 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: women's study program in the United States, so she is significant. 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: With fifty one years of teaching a women's studies, Dr 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Wagner has become one of the most active and overall 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: authority of the history of women's studies in this country, 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: so that's something to know. Um. And she has published 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: numerous books on the subject of women's studies and the 34 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: history of the suffragette movement, including the book we Are 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: Featuring today a which is titled Sisters in Spirit Holding 36 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: a Shawnee Iroquois. We're gonna put that in parentheses, uh, 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: influence on early American Feminists, which published in two thousand one. 38 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: So yes, this is kind of an older book, um, 39 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: but still significant to read. She also recently wrote The 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: Women's Suffrage Movement, which looks at the Suffragette movement through 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: a new intersectional lens, which we love and I'm sure 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: we'll tackle that soon enough as well. And here's a 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: bit of information written in a Sisters in Spirit of 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: some of Dr Wagner's work. Quote. The theme of for 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: our work has been telling the untold stories. The exhibit 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: in her monograph of the same name, She who Holds 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: the Sky, Matilda Jocelyn Gage reveals the stuffer just written 48 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: out of history because of her stay against the religious 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: right one years ago, while her traveling exhibit in Women's 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: Rights National Historic Part Curriculum, Sisters in Spirit documents the 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: influence of the Hoddeda Shawnee women on early women's right activists. 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: So there you go. And again we talked about this 53 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: and the significance, but we're gonna talk a little more 54 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: in depth with this book. And like many of the 55 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: books we have covered, uh, for this segment, this is 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: very quote heavy because of course they do they explaining 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: in the book, so we're just going to talk about it. Um. 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: So we wanted to take some time to talk of 59 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: the history and the themes with a discussion around the 60 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: quotes from the book. So instead of doing like we're 61 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: gonna talk about the book and then do themes. We're 62 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: gonna do themes and quotes all at the same time 63 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: to cover the entirety of the book, which is very 64 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: short by the way, so again this is like an 65 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: hour and a half two hour read. Yeah, m Let's 66 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: begin with the introduction, which was written by Jeane Shenandoah 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: of the Onondaga Nation. In the intro, we are asked 68 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: to open our minds and our eyes to learn things 69 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: we may have quote never thought about. Shenandoah writes, we 70 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: hope that the messages inside will help to open your 71 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: eyes and ears to things you may have never realized 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: or even thought about, since this type of information has 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: been withheld in the education of all the people, and 74 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: goes on to talk about the history of the hot 75 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: and shining quote. We huddn't Shannie live within the traditional 76 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: structure that we've always had, the structure of equality among 77 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: all members of our community. Women, men, and children have 78 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: equal spiritual, human and political rights. We have equal opportunity 79 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: to voice opinions or objections to any situation within our community, 80 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: and we know that our voice will be heard. And 81 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: with that, she continues, read this book and learn from it. 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: It helps you to realize what women have gone through 83 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: to make a stand for their rightful equal place on earth. Yeah, 84 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: so it's pretty good start. I think it's a great start. 85 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: So the book begins with a question that should be 86 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: asked for all of our historical understanding, quote, who gets 87 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: to be part of history? Um, we have to acknowledge 88 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: our lack of knowledge and lack of education when it 89 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: comes to the complete history, and be wary of who 90 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: is teaching it. Dr Dr Wagner rights, Uh, we Euro Americans, 91 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: you white people annie to see you are filled with 92 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: the poison of misinformation. Great gaps of knowledge accompany the lies. 93 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Oh missions teach us equally and more viously the misinformation. 94 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: The lesson of exclusion is clear. Groups of people included 95 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: in the interpretation of history are respected, while excluded groups 96 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: are outsiders and can easily be ignored. If our teachers 97 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: do not tell us about a group of people, we 98 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: assume they are unimportant. And oh my god, that's so 99 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: right on. And we've talked about this with the complete 100 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: lack of transparency when it comes to education. I think 101 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: it's a huge subject. Now. I can't believe you wrote 102 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: this in two thousand one and it hits right on 103 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: the head today. Yeah, because it's such a huge topic 104 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: of debate um right now, and it's one of those 105 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: political issues that people use to get um their constituents 106 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: fired up. Uh, and it's very misunderstood. But yeah, it's 107 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: just it's what we learned is so much like white centric, 108 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: very male centric. It's not until you get out of college, 109 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: and even then that you you kind of are like, oh, 110 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: these things that would have been taught from the beginning 111 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: right there, right, and and the fact and we know 112 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: she has been a Dr Wagner has been working on 113 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: this for a long time. This is a twenty two 114 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: year old book, um, and I'm just learning about it 115 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: this past year to this year, Like, that's horrific to me. 116 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: I cannot believe it took us this long. And then 117 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show the constant erasure of 118 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: marginalized people in history and why it's important that we 119 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: make sure we keep talking about it and that other 120 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: people are educated. So it just it's one of those 121 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: things that it hasn't changed centuries upon centuries, but we 122 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: do have people like Dr Wagner who still talk about it, 123 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: who still pushed it forward because she's been talking about 124 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: it for the past twenty three years, if not longer, 125 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: So that's amazing to see. Um. And yeah, we have 126 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: to acknowledge the reason for the lack of truth and 127 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: information has to do with racism. She writes, the message 128 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: of a mission is an educational foundation of racism. Through 129 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: the silence in our education, many of us have learned 130 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: not to listen to the histories of people of color, 131 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: women and other excluded groups. And yeah, like she just 132 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: puts up lately, this is racist. This is an absolute 133 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: racist take on history because it's been whitewashed. Yeah. Yeah, 134 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: And I bet for a lot of people who as 135 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: always we hope you go read these books after we 136 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: see can we talk about them? But I bet for 137 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: a lot of you this will be new. A lot 138 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: of it was new for us. We're like kind of 139 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: in this field, so right, right, And the fact that 140 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: I have not heard this being addressed, I don't think 141 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: I've ever heard this being addressed except for small groups 142 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: of people, I feel like, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 143 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: And even deeper into the telling of the history, we 144 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge the failability of the teachers, but also 145 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: the fluidity of history. Dr Wagner rights, There's nothing inherent 146 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: or inevitable about history created by people. It is shaped 147 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: by the same socio political economic forces that determine the 148 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: telling of it. History changes like institutions when people demand change. 149 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: As excluded groups see conclusion and institutions. They also celebrate 150 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: their histories, demanding to be remembered. United States history has 151 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 1: gone through phases in the last fifty years, reflecting cultural 152 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: and social shifts towards greater inclusion and diversity. Right. I 153 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: hope we come back to that because I feel like 154 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: this is so cyclical um and where we are today, 155 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: and of course we know the backtracking that I guess 156 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: the political shift more so that has happened recently, including 157 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: attacking Native and Indigenous laws that were placed to protect 158 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: but also to acknowledge the wrongs that have happened to 159 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: them by the colony zation that continues to happen. Let's 160 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: be honest, and I hope that this continues bigger and bigger, 161 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: because we are going to have this conversation and we're 162 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: not gonna stop having this conversation. We don't know what's 163 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: happening in schools. We don't know what's happening around us 164 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: right now all the time. Um, we hear all the 165 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: bad news. I hear all the bad news, but even 166 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: talking to some teachers are like, we haven't had a 167 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: pushback like that yet. But doesn't mean it's not coming 168 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: around necessarily or that it's not happening elsewhere. So I'm 169 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: hoping that it is just more of a shift of 170 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: the the people who are just talking the loudest, and 171 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: that this information is going to get out more and 172 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: more because I think more especially the younger generations are wonderful. 173 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: They're seeking for more information like this. Yeah, yeah, And 174 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: I do think that there's that going on. There is 175 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: there is this push that Wagner described. Dr Wagner described, Um, 176 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: and I think also just I hope m books like 177 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: this and even podcasts like this, perhaps through a small 178 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: your level, not to shoot her own horn, but like 179 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: that kind of information is becoming more and more available. 180 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: Whether or not you find it, that's an issue, but 181 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: it is out there. I feel like there's more things 182 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: out there for people to find. You just have to 183 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: know how to look for it, and that is, yes, 184 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: the problem. Um. Dr Wagner continues. This phase of history 185 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: also conveyed the message that the only people that matter 186 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: are wealthy white men, and that common people have no 187 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: influence over the course of events. Right. And in this example, 188 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: she talks about the story of Christopher Columbus and and 189 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: the way it was framed and what we see today. 190 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: And I love that. I love that we have come 191 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: to a cultural shift of changing that to Indigenous People's Day, 192 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: like awareness Day, I'm like, yeah, Okay, we're getting there. 193 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: We're getting there, at least we're getting there with terms. 194 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: We're getting there with understanding, but there's obviously so much 195 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: that we're lacking, right, And we even talked about that 196 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: with things like our our episode we did on Wikipedia 197 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: or those check ins with like, there's still so much 198 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: further to go in terms of who we're talking about 199 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: and when we're recording and it still is this a 200 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: lot kind of wealthy white man. It is getting better, 201 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: but it's like slow going. Um. But as she wrote, 202 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: history changes, and that is things in part to those 203 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: who saw the injustices of these whitewashed context She writes, quote, 204 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: recognition of historical injustices opened the way to see the 205 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: triumphs of those who resisted overcame It nearly overwhelming odds 206 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: and survived. Most recently, we have begun to explore the 207 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: unexpected and largely unknown stories of friendships established during colonization 208 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: and coexistence and of the way groups influenced each other. 209 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: All right, And I love that beginning because that's kind 210 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: of the thing we talked about with Fox about her documentary, 211 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: was that, more so than just the history, we were 212 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: seeing the friendship between Dr Wagner and the clan mother 213 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: and how they've been friends for years, but just loving 214 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: their relationship even and that was one of the bigger 215 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: things to her that she saw following them around and 216 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: the love between them and the work they've done throughout 217 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: the years, like this book and the and the Ford. Um. 218 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: I really found it fascinating. And also, yeah, the fact 219 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: that they have survived, and when we talked with Box 220 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: about even the native language and that she didn't know 221 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: it because yes, it had been literally beaten out of 222 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: them and during the boarding school era and and now 223 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: has come back and it's being restored and it's a 224 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: beautiful thing because they know that it has to survive, 225 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: and it's an amazing thing to witness today. Yeah. Yeah, 226 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: And and things like just the cultural practices and the 227 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: stories and passing these things down from generation to generation. 228 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: We really can't recommend that documentary enough. It was so 229 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: enlightening and it's beautifully shot. But yeah, I love the 230 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: friendship between between them two and then also seeing these 231 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: multiple generations of women right talk about these issues, right. Uh. 232 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner asks us the readers to seriously think about 233 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: the radicalism of the suffraget movement, that we celebrate the 234 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: nine at Amendment today and acknowledge the works are the 235 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: more well known activists like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 236 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: which by the way, I believed Dr Wagner had a 237 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: hand and bringing her history back for a while. It 238 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: was missing until not too long ago, So that's pretty interesting. Um, 239 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: we don't always look deep at the fights they had 240 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: to endure. And for those who are willing to call 241 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: out oppressive systems, that even today is still a controversial topic. 242 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: And within these conversations we have to look at ourselves 243 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: and ask would we have done the same thing or 244 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: as Dr Wagener puss it uh just be quote safe, um, 245 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: And yeah, we're gonna talk a little more bit about that, 246 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: and and just so you know, we're not gonna go 247 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: deep into some of the analogies because I have a 248 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: hard time with some of these analogies. And when it 249 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: comes to white women movements, uh to enslavement, and there 250 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: is some conversations about servitude back then in the limited 251 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: freedoms and all of that. So there is some conversations 252 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: about that in the book. We're not going to harp 253 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: too deeply in it, but just know that it is 254 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: there in that in the awareness that women have no 255 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: rights at that point in time, especially the beginning of 256 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: the movement in the mid nineteenth century going forward, so 257 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: there was a lot of time about emancipation and conversation. 258 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: So this was something that was in their thought processes 259 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: and I think it's important to know. But we're not 260 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: gonna go deep into that part um. But a part 261 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: of Dr Wagner's work includes the history of many women 262 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: as part of the suffragette movement, as well as preserving 263 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: the works of the women, especially those who are lesser known. 264 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: Within the book, she talks about the works and interactions 265 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Matilda Justin gauge Um Engage was 266 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: with the suffrage Triumvirate alongside Stanton and Anthony. So they 267 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: were the first three essentially leaders, and they met up 268 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: the leadership positions of the National Women's Suffrage Association. Gauge 269 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: and Stanton concentrated on more radical levels of feminism at 270 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: the time. Dr Wagner writes a quote made by Gauge, quote, 271 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: the laws civil and social, each equally burdensome our church origin. 272 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: And not until the church is destroyed will women be freed, 273 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: which even said today would cause a lot of controversy. 274 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: We know this as a black people saying it today 275 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: is causing a lot of controversy. Stanton seemed to have agreed, 276 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: as Dr Wagner quotes from one of Stanton's letters. As 277 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: I have passed from the political to the religious phase 278 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: of this question, I now see more clearly than ever 279 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: that the arch enemy to women's freedom skulk behind the 280 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: altar to rouse women to a sense of their degradation 281 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: under the canon, law and church discipline is the work 282 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: that interests me most into which I prepared to devote 283 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: the sunset of my life. Right eighteen fifties, eighteen seventies, 284 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: they were talking about this. This was not heard of. 285 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: We know that there's a d conversation about religiousness and 286 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: like religious morality. I did not know that they were 287 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: so against the church. I think I knew very little 288 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: on that level of like they just wanted to move forward, um, 289 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: and it was right, but they were supremely against the 290 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: church as it stands. And that kind of comes into 291 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: the conversation about white nationalism today and how it relates together. 292 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: And it's pretty amazing to see that we're still here. Yeah. Yeah, 293 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: it's a big focus of the book, honestly, um. And 294 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: that surprised me as well how much they wrote about religion, 295 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: and specifically here, like you know, white European religion, that 296 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: how it was oppressing women, and that's something you and 297 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: I were working on a long series about. It's getting longer. 298 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: It's getting longer, longer. So yeah, I mean it's still 299 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: a huge, huge topic today. But I was surprised at 300 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: how much of this book. I was like, oh, whoa. 301 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: They did not hold back, and they weren't the only ones. 302 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: They definitely were the quieter voices, it seems because again, 303 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: like Dr Wagner makes mentioned that Susan B. Anthony was 304 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: the perfect example of the quiet, demure moral representation of 305 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: the Suffraget movement. And not necessarily standing or gage who 306 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: are like, yeah, the church, the church is destroying us 307 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: because y'all want to put us under this awful idea 308 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: that Eve has uh cursed us all, which they talk 309 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: about too. But it's an interesting take it. I'll love it. 310 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie sorry. And with that, they wrote 311 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: in the History of Women's suffrage quote, society is based 312 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: on this fourfold bondage of women, Church, state, capital, and society, 313 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: making liberty and equality for her antagonistic to every organized institution. 314 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: So those are the four institutions and kind of break 315 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: it down. We're just gonna kind of summarize that with 316 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: state being under government control with no rights and limited liberty. 317 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Capital is the idea of marriage, which equates to unpaid 318 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: labor and servitude and often leads to the women having 319 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: no rights or no say within the household or the land, 320 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: no right to property. Is either society, which is an 321 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: inability to earn wages or have a career, which takes 322 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: away from their having independence, liberty, and even equality, um 323 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: any of them. Like, we wouldn't break that down a 324 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: little further because she does talk about these four subjects 325 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: throughout and of course we just mentioned the church, so 326 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: we don't have to explain that. I don't think. Yeah. 327 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: I would also add in here I've long wanted to 328 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: do this episode. I think it would be very complicated. 329 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps we'll talk about it in the religious history one. 330 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: But there's a long history of wanting to restrict women's 331 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: rights because many women are people with uters is can 332 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: have children and children at this time, we're used for labor, 333 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: and so it was a type of capital and they 334 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: wanted to men in the church. The church didn't want 335 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: to pay for children burn out of web. Look that 336 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: came up to is like women who had children, people 337 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: who had children having no rights to the child right 338 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: and yeah, that was that they were property on the 339 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: same level as women were property right. Very interesting, Um, 340 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: so where did these ideas these institutions come from? And 341 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: on the interview, I admitted to fox Uh that this 342 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: was one of those moments that felt obvious that the 343 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: suffraget movement wasn't something born from the Eurocentric ideal that 344 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of this country was based on the oppression 345 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: of the European British standards. So it kind of was like, oh, yeah, duh, yeah, 346 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: it made yeah of course, of course, we just don't 347 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: think that that far behind Dr Wagner. She writes about 348 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: her own misconceptions. I did not set out to look 349 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: for this connection, this link between early suffragists and native people's. 350 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: In truth, if someone has suggested it to me when 351 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: I taught my first women studies class in nineteen sixty nine, 352 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: I would have scoffed at yet another more quote romantic 353 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: Indian story. I had a single question, basic to feminist history. 354 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: How did the radical suffragists come to their vision, A 355 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: vision not of band aid reform, but of a reconstituted 356 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: world completely transformed H And I thought that was something significant. 357 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: She admits it, and then she goes on to talk 358 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: about the fact that she never once doubted that it 359 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: came from the European women, even though when we look 360 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: at the historical context, European women didn't have freedoms like that, right, right, 361 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: And I think that goes to show how deeply ingrained 362 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: our whitewash history is. Is that I mean, she admitted it. 363 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: I can admit it. I didn't really think about it 364 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: when when I learned it, I was like, oh, of course, um, 365 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: but that's how deep this is. And That's how damaging 366 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: that kind of a rature is because we could have 367 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's heartbreaking in so many ways, but we 368 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: could have learned so much more we had the history 369 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: available to us instead of they taught us how to 370 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: plant corn. Yes, the native people taught us how to 371 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: plant corn, and I mean white people. Sorry. And this 372 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: is something that she discovers and we'll talk about in 373 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: a few minutes. Yes, but first, Dr Wagner begins by 374 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: breaking down the language of the colonizers versus the indigenous Uh, 375 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: the different types of misinformation presented in the usage of 376 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: the term indians. For example, um is an example of 377 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: the horror and dangers of colonizers giving names instead of 378 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: the community letting us know the name that they go by. 379 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: The different tribal names given we're also given by colonizers, 380 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: as well as the term tribes. Dr Wagner writes, not 381 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: recognizing the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted in a 382 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: false other imposed name. They have that quote political correctness 383 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: that requires them to change their language. Yeah, why is 384 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: it still relatable? I know, I mean, let's be honest, 385 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: Like when we talk about a lot of these conversations 386 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: and issues yeah, it's still going ongoing today, even to 387 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: the point that finally the people have stopped saying the 388 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: term Indian, which basically cringed to say, I'm not gonna 389 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: lie uh to Native or Indigenous or First People's which 390 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: is appropriate, which makes complete sense. And in the fact 391 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: that this was not the name they were getting, like 392 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: they go by. This has always been an insulting term 393 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: for them because it was giving by colonizers as a 394 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: way of kind of ownership of that community. And it's 395 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: it's like, oh God, yeah, and I love that sentence 396 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: about her saying the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted. Uh, 397 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: like that whole sentences that we talked about appropriation. And 398 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: this was two thousand one and it existed dead, but 399 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't this big conversation it is today that Yeah, 400 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: it absolutely was. This is absolutely some of the evidence 401 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: of appropriation committed by colonizers, and which is the example 402 00:22:43,119 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: of why this is so damaging and an important then 403 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes, self naming is, of course a critical 404 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: part of the process of creating a diverse culture. One rule, 405 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: when in doubt about what to call a person or group, 406 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: don't tie up their time and energy and asking read 407 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: what they have to say, then sift carefully and slowly 408 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: through the multiple answers, knowing that this is not a 409 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: trivial matter. So we change by evolving and respecting the 410 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: culture that has been around before the existence of this country. Yeah. Yeah, 411 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: ask questions, ask good questions. I wonder who wrote the 412 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: history always, but I do think that's part of it. 413 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: Is like a lot of people, and we've discussed this again, 414 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: going back to that Wikipedia episode, is if it's not 415 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: easily found, I think a lot of people just don't 416 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: put in the time and we really need to. We 417 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: have to write and yeah, like she says, don't tie 418 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: up their time and energy, which is exactly that conversation is. 419 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: Let we're asking for something of value from them because 420 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: we're too lazy to look at it ourselves when the 421 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: work has already been done. Yes, Yes, Also an ongoing 422 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: conversation here, Dr Wagner emphasizes the importance of recognizing the 423 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: community as they call themselves, and here Dr Wagner is 424 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: specifically talking about the six nations of the Hodda Nishani 425 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: are formally named Iroquois, which includes the Onondagas, the Cayugas, 426 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: the Senecas, the Mohawks, and the Oneidas. Later they would 427 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: add the nation of tolcar Auras and Hotda. Nashani translates 428 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: to quote the people of the long House from the 429 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: circumstance that they likened their political structure of a long 430 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: tenement or dwelling. Yeah, and I'll also add, if you 431 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: get the book, and I'll hope you get the book 432 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: and you're able to read it, they do have a 433 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: lot of amazing illustrations to go with these, and there 434 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: is a great illustration like of this dwelling. So it's 435 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: really interesting to see. And these are people who would 436 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: heavinly influence the radical movement of women's rights and the 437 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: beginning of feminist ideology. According to Dr Wagner's research, the 438 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: women's rights movement really began in the territory of Hodashani 439 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty eat uh. As we said earlier, she 440 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: found these answers to who was the influence in the 441 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: women's rights movement. Um, here's another quote from the book. 442 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: It dawned on me I had been skimming over the 443 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: source of their vision without even noticing it. My own 444 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: stunningly deep seated presumption of white supremacy had kept me 445 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: from recognizing what these protect typical feminists kept insisting in 446 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: their writings. They believed women's liberation was possible because they 447 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: knew liberated women, women who possessed rights beyond their wildest imaginations. 448 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: The hold of a Shawnee women um and she later continues, 449 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: like most historians do, I had assumed that the story 450 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: of feminism began with the discovery of America by white men, 451 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: or the political revolutions staged by the colonists. That there's 452 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: no seed of feminism already in American soil when the 453 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: first white settlers arrived. Without realizing it, I had assumed 454 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: that white people had imported the germ of the idea 455 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: of women's rights, and that was the end of the story, right. 456 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 1: I think the two parts that we wanted to talk about, like, 457 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: that is white supremacy that level, whether or not you 458 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: want to admit it. And because people don't like that 459 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: term white supremacy because it's too heavily laid with you 460 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: might be racist, um, but that is as an underlying 461 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: racism that you don't know about. That even like for 462 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: me as well, obviously I'm still as an Asian woman 463 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: hanging onto that white supremacy and assuming the same thing 464 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: that it was it began with white women point blank. 465 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. And there's so much offensive like ideas 466 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: underpending that in terminology and depending that that the book 467 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: does go into. But yeah, it's pretty it's pretty distressing 468 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: and disturbing because yeah, if you you don't know because 469 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: you were raised with this particular version of history that 470 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: we're all kind of like growing up in um, then 471 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: you don't know to ask. And so it's so good 472 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: that the work like this exists and people are asking 473 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: now because it is just the so much of what 474 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: the Hodd and Shannie Like, there was one chart, you 475 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: know the chart I'm talking about where it showed that 476 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: like how their society is versus like we're gonna talk 477 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I'm telling you, like, it was such 478 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: a beautiful thing that even today I was looking at 479 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: it like what right, I can barely imagine this. And 480 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: to be honest, even to this day, they still have 481 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: more rights and more equality than we do as a 482 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: country today. Yeah. Let the culture before, since they've been existing, 483 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: has more rights than us today. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And 484 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: it's just again so frustrating that so many of us 485 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: do think of when we think of the feminist movement, 486 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: we think of these white women, and there were so 487 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: many women of color behind it that get erased. But 488 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: then to have them get the credit flight being the 489 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: start of it when they were learning from all of 490 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: the incigenous women, like, that's where they got these ideas 491 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: um and she was able to research to the truth. 492 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: At the beginning of the movement, she writes, they stayed 493 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: and engage, looked elsewhere for their vision of the regenerated world, 494 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 1: and they found it in Upstate New York. They became 495 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: students of the hoddaa Shawnee and found a cosmological worldview 496 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: they believed to be superior to the patriarchal, white male 497 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: dominated view prevalent in their own nation. So Lovely Gauge 498 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: was an avid researcher of the Hoddaashani culture and the 499 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: role of the women in their system, which she termed 500 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: matriarch kate I think that's correct or mother rule system. 501 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: As In fact, Gauge wrote articles about the Hodda Shanie 502 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: and all so started a book. Here's another quote from 503 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner, the editor of The New York Evening post 504 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: said that Gauge expressed, quote an exhibition of ardent devotion 505 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: to the cause of women's rights, which is very proper 506 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: in the president of the Suffrage Association and gives prominence 507 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: to the fact that in the old days, on the 508 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: glory of the famous Confederation was at its height, the 509 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: power and importance of women were recognized by the allied tribes. Right. 510 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: I found it interesting because we're gonna go deeper into 511 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: the fact that these women who we're trying to advocate 512 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: so hard for the women in the United States at 513 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: that point in time, in the in the white territories, 514 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: I guess we're trying so hard to bring that cultural 515 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: aspect to it, but had to admit they loved and 516 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: rather would have stayed with that culture the indigenous community 517 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: because they were they were even given the same rights 518 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: as HoDaa Shawnee women. They are who were have been 519 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: born into that since but they were accepted of it. 520 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: And because of this they came back with allies who 521 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: helped to be like here, here you go, we got 522 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: your back. This is what you can do, this is 523 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: what we're gonna tell you about. We'll tell you about 524 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: our system, we'll show it to you and show you 525 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: how wonderful it worked. Yeah, that was a lot of 526 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: examples of that throughout and also a lot of like 527 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: discussion hit home again of how they felt safe like 528 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: walking at night alone Native territories, but didn't they never had, 529 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: and then the back they were surprised when they felt 530 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: that safe. They're like, yeah, why wouldn't you write um 531 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: And as both Stanton and Gauge continue to push forward 532 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: in the women's rights movement, they noted quote the society 533 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: in which they lived was based on the impression of 534 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: women hot into Shawnee. Society, on the other hand, was 535 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: organized to maintain a balance of the quality between women 536 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: and men, and they went as far as creating a list, Yes, 537 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: this is what we were talking about to show those differences, 538 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: which they break down as social, econom make, spiritual and political. 539 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: Here are some of the examples, um hoddena Shaani. Violence 540 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: against women not a part of culture and dealt with 541 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: seriously when occurs. Each woman controls your own personal property. 542 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: Sky woman the spiritual being catalyst for the world. We 543 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: see women hold key political offices e g. Clan mothers 544 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: and for Euro American women, husbands have legal right and 545 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: religious responsibility to physically discipline wives, no rights to her 546 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: own property, body or children, no female in the godhead, 547 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: and women are excluded from political office. Also, they can't 548 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: vote while holding a Shawnee are the ones to choose 549 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: their chief right, And there's a lot more to that list. 550 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: We just wanted to give you a little bit of 551 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: an example. But it's again shocking and again more rights 552 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: than what we have today, even like we've gotten more 553 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: rights since then, yeah, but still less rights than what 554 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: the hold of a Shawnee women has. Yeah, I thought, yeah, 555 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: I thought. I thought it was interesting they included the 556 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: bit about like the odd head. There's no because, as 557 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: you said earlier, that idea of Eve ruining everything in 558 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: kind of white Christian religion. Um, so it's like, not 559 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: only do we not have like a god, we have 560 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: like the woman ruined everything. Right, they are meant to 561 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: be punished because they are the ones they are the 562 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: fault for sin periods. Yes and man right noxious? Uh. 563 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: And also many of these women who studied the hold 564 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: of a Shawnee were adopted into the different indigenous communities 565 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: during their time with them, allowing them to practice leadership 566 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: and autonomy under the hood. Of a Shawnee lifestyle, so 567 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: they gotta taste. They got that taste. Um. And those 568 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: who did study the lifestyle of this indigenous group all 569 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: acknowledged the overall equality and freedom within the community, even 570 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: beyond the freedom of the women. The system that was 571 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: used by the hold of a shanity brought about peace 572 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: within the community and a camaraderie. Um. And yeah, like 573 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: you said, there was safety and there was a lot 574 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: of measure to make sure everybody felt equal in a 575 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: part of the system. So it wasn't just you have 576 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: this role. It's a minute role. Get out of the 577 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: way or you'll be beaten. Um. And if you could 578 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: step out of line whatever, it was like, No, we 579 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: all are equal to each other. One doesn't outdo the other. 580 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: We balanced each other, right, Um. And that whole idea too, 581 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: is so stark of like, you know, hurting a woman 582 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: with the hold nutshine people punishing seriously, very very rare. 583 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: It's like codified into law that men could do that 584 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: to their wives if they like straight or did something 585 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: quote heavy quotes wrong, right, And it's biblically allowed, not 586 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: been allowed to biblically forced. They was like, you have 587 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: to do this right, because otherwives the sin will get 588 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: hold of her. It was their responsibility to keep their 589 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: wives in check. Yeah, it's really real. Must up, must up. Yeah. 590 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: And in their culture of the Hut and Shinny had 591 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: freedoms that seem radical even today to some extent, women 592 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: choosing their leaders and being able to fire him if 593 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: his actions violate. There's three qualifications. Quote they cannot commit murder, 594 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: cannot commit theft, and cannot abuse a woman. Huh, that's right, 595 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: they're right there. And on top of that, divorce was 596 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: not looked down on, which Stanton was a proponent of. 597 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes she found a model in the Hood 598 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: and a Shawnee attitudes towards divorce, where quote a misbehaving 599 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: Iroquois husband quote might at any time be ordered to 600 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: pick up his blanket and budge get out. Yeah, pick 601 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: up his blanket, budge, But I love it, get out. 602 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: That's great. And reviews on divorce were in part due 603 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: to the level of the structure of marriage, with marital 604 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: rape and abuse being legal, as well as women's complete 605 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: loss of autonomy to the authority of their husband. Stanton 606 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: looked towards the practices of the Hoddan Shawnee. She is 607 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: quoted in the book as envying how native women quote 608 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: ruled the house. Dr Wagner continued later in the book 609 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: of the seriousness for men of the Honda Shawnee misbehaving, uh, 610 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: including rape, which researchers noted was non existence. She writes 611 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: a tesca or chief Elias Johnson wrote, the absence of 612 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: rape and quote sexual violation of women was virtually unknown 613 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: among native men, right, which is amazing And I think 614 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: I know Fox talked about that during our interview as well, 615 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: that that was not introduced until Christian missionaries came through 616 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: and tried to quote unquote civilize right and the indigenous community, 617 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: which damn you. And as for domestic violence, if one 618 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: of the indigenous men were known to be abusive, he 619 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: was quote led to the red hot statue of a 620 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: female and requested to treat it as he had done 621 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: his wife. He commenced beating it and the sparks flew out, 622 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: and we're continually burning him. So that was his attrition essentially, 623 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: just like, Okay, we got this burning hot statue, good 624 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: for it, and which is what just caused him to burn. 625 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, I like it let's do it. Yeah, So 626 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: obviously there was very limited numbers of some domestic violence 627 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: at that point in time. And on top of the 628 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: different responsibilities, the hot and a Shawnee women were farmers 629 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: and the authority of the land. Um, here's another quote 630 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: for the book, satisfying and sacred. Women's work harmoniously complimented 631 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: the hunting diplomatic duties of men. Both were equally valued 632 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: within the framework of community responsibility, individual liberty flourished. Um. 633 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: And you know, we we had this conversation about feminism 634 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: in general a while ago as we were talking about 635 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: the different waves that yes, at one point the women 636 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to work, which kind of contradicted 637 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: the fact that women who had to work and had 638 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: no choice it had to be menial labor and the 639 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: fact that this is not a right to them. Right. 640 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: But this comes to the path fact that is about 641 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: the balance, because at this point in time, um, Stanton 642 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: and Engage, we're both talking about the fact the women 643 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: were in uh, pretty much servitude to their husbands and 644 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: we're not allowed to do anything else, and had no 645 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: monetary savings themselves and had the rights to anything. So 646 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,439 Speaker 1: if they were ever to be abandoned. They would have nothing. Yeah, 647 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's another thing that was really striking 648 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: to me because even if I personally believe that women's 649 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: work is undervalued, it should be paid way more. I'm 650 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: I'm of the belief like women who stay home and 651 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: take care of kids should get paid some like financial 652 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: compensation because it's a job. This is hard for me 653 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,919 Speaker 1: to believe our society could ever reach a point where 654 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: we equally value quote Bremon's work and men's work, because 655 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: that's how difficult this battle has been, right and it 656 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: still continues to be obviously, as you were talking about, 657 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: even like the pay gap, that we continue to talk 658 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: about the gender gap when it comes to opportunities for 659 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: better jobs or good jobs or different jobs. Um. But 660 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: there was a balance in the hood of the Shaunning community. 661 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner rights. Women were responsible for everything in the 662 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: earth while men had the care of everything on the earth. 663 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: And yes, that's I think that's part of the biggest 664 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: conversations that gets lost when it comes to like men's 665 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: rights movements and all this. Both we want to get 666 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: the equal footing, and at this point that's no longer. 667 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: Equality is equity and that's a conversation we need to 668 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: have in itself, and of course it becomes an intersectional thing, 669 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: which yes, it's a big, big conversation, but to the 670 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: fact that they started equal, they've been equal. They don't 671 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: have to talk about equity because they're already equal. And 672 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: this is the conversation that we don't have enough of. 673 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: And it's this balance of like, yeah, you can have 674 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: this one and one, one and one, as in like, okay, 675 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: if you want to be a stay at home mom, 676 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: that's wonderful, you do you, but you also have that 677 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: right to have a vacation, to have a compensation, and 678 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: have time off, like all of those things where you 679 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: should be allowed that just as much as the husband is, 680 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: and that he should be able to follow through with 681 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: that as his is, Like he gets vacation every day 682 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: if she's they are taking care of the children and 683 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: feeding him and cleaning the house. Equality would be that 684 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: he would take that footing as if this was her 685 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: job as well, right with equal compensation at equal time off. 686 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: But that's that's a whole different I digress. Yes, it's 687 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: just yes. And with all of this knowledge, the movement 688 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: went forward. The activists took up the act of civil disobedience, 689 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: including trying to vote and not paying taxes. They declared 690 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: the States violating the law by quote refusing to women's 691 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: citizens the exercise of a right secured to them by 692 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: the Constitution of the United States, including the denial of 693 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: women's legal right to vote. And it was soon after 694 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: that Susan B. Anthony would be arrested and tried for 695 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: voting in eighteen seventy three, which led to Anthony being 696 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: found guilty of voting and find one hundred dollars, which 697 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: would lead to the Supreme Court case brought on by 698 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: Virginia Minor, but they lost. The court declared quote, states 699 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: have the absolute right to grant or deny suffrage. But 700 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: of course that didn't stop them from continuing to fight 701 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: another quote from the book, ridiculed labeled heretics and arrested 702 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: for the crime of voting, The courageous suffragists continued to 703 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: believe in the rightness of their cause, and as they 704 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: continued to work for the right to vote, the activists 705 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: kept looking to the examples of the Hodden Shawni people. 706 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: Dr Wagner quotes both Stanton and Gauge Stanton rights the 707 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: women were the great power among the clan. As everywhere else, 708 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: they did not hesitate when occasion required to knock off 709 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: the horns as it was technically called, from the head 710 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: of a chief and sent him back to the ranks 711 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: of the warriors. The original nomination of the chiefs also 712 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: always rested with the women, and from Gauge quote, the 713 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: common interests of the confederacy were arranged in councils, each 714 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: sex holding one of its own, although the women took 715 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: the initiative suggestion orders of their own sex, presenting their 716 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: views to the council of men, right, and they could 717 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: they held tied to that. Um, we still don't have that. No, 718 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: I'm so discarded. Um, of course, like it is. It's 719 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: something that they looked for. This was radical, So I'm 720 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: not gonna lie. I knew about Stanton, kind of knew 721 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: about Gauge, not really, but to understand that they saw 722 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: the bigger picture. They saw the bigger picture even for today, 723 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: and it's phenomenal that we're still behind what they wanted. Yeah, yeah, 724 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: And I think that's one of those things where it's 725 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: also so difficult to untangle when your government is kind 726 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: of based in white supremacy and in sexism and in racism, 727 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: like all of those systems. So like they're trying to 728 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: get the right to vote within this system that's already 729 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of messed up, um, And so when you see, 730 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, the hun is shiny, they can just knock 731 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: the horns off as they say, like, oh, this is 732 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: not working. Whereas we have like convicted like sexual assault 733 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 1: people who represent us in our government and can't seem 734 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: to get them out right, Like it's just such a 735 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: stark again stark difference, and then we accept it. M hmm. 736 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: It's kind of like have a House of representatives whose 737 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: entire campaign was based all on lines, yeah, and our 738 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: speaking of the House refuses to denounce him yep, who 739 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: was a veteran and it was supposed to be one 740 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,439 Speaker 1: of the better right conservative representatives. Like that that level 741 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: just blows my mind, like are you kidding me? And 742 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: we didn't talk much about it before in this outside 743 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,959 Speaker 1: of like talking about how much didn't and Gauge really 744 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: opposed the Church um and felt like they were a 745 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: giant oppressors. So here's a quote from Gauge that Dr 746 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: Wagner pulls forth that the woman of every Christian Land 747 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: fears to meet a man in a secluded place by 748 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: day or night is of itself sufficient proof of the 749 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: low state of Christian morality. That's pretty damning. I mean 750 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: totally on point though. Yeah, if you had good you 751 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: can't feel safe around a quote good Christian man the dark. 752 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: That is saying something right. And they talked about beyond that, 753 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: about the oppression of men, and that the religion, religion 754 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: in itself that was brought over by uh the European standards, 755 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: was to oppress women and that's the intention of it all. 756 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: And if they hold on to that, that women will 757 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: never have freedom and they will never have rights, and 758 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: that the first they must abolish the church essentially. Um. 759 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: And I found that interesting in this conversation, and that 760 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: quote that Gage says applies today. I hate you did 761 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, it's true. And I like, like we 762 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: said at the top, I didn't know that religion was 763 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: going to be such a big part of this. I 764 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: was shocked that at this time they were saying this stuff, 765 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: not because they were wrong, but because it feels so 766 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: explosive even today, right, But they were back then like Nope, 767 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. The fact that, yeah, that women 768 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: were actually printing this as a part of their goals 769 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: essentially and in some of their points is phenomenal because 770 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: we know how pure toan level, uh it was in 771 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: that point in time, and to have these women come 772 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: forward again, I didn't realize honestly, that level and that depth. 773 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: I just assumed there were Christian women because most of 774 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: the time that I hear from about the suffrages, I 775 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: think about the prohibition to in nineteen twenties as it 776 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: comes around, So that didn't link to me and all 777 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,959 Speaker 1: of that because it was kind of the morality level 778 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: as well, like women have uh an opinion, they created 779 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: the temperance society at that point in the nineteen twenties, 780 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: so a little later, but still all these things um 781 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteen hundreds and and understanding at that point 782 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: that that is such a different point of view. Not 783 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: that I don't know Stanton engages opinions on alcohol, but 784 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: I guess maybe today that's what I like, that could 785 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: Christian behavior kind of goes alongside that. So seeing them 786 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: out right being outspoken about their disdain about European Christianity, wow, 787 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 1: like wow, Yeah, I think there's also just this is 788 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: my experience. There's kind of a general vibe that everybody 789 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: was pretty every like white European Christian was pretty religious. Um. 790 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: And so that's just sort of my assumption is like 791 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 1: almost everybody was religious, um. But that doesn't seem like 792 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,439 Speaker 1: it was the case. So with that, I think it's 793 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: it's something that we we should know that because we 794 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: often talk about the beginning of movements, uh, and even 795 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: the beginning of the country as some kind of religious 796 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: adventure or whatever. And this was obviously not that. This 797 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: is obviously not that they were radical. They were radical 798 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,879 Speaker 1: to the core. They would be radical today. Yeah, I'm 799 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: pretty sure didn't want of them say that, Like she 800 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 1: kind of called out the hypocrisy of oh, you wanted 801 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: to leave Europe because of religious persecution and now that 802 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying this, yeah, and as in fact that she 803 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: talked about that you wanted freedom and the rights that 804 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: we were so oppressed by, and then we fought with you, 805 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,439 Speaker 1: and then you took it away from us to how 806 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: we were with you. We were with you in this 807 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: calls and they quote Abigail Adams, which was before that movement, 808 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: in her hopes that things would change for women, but 809 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: it didn't, and she feared that. She feared that we 810 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: were working alongside these men, but we're not going to 811 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: get the rights. Yeah, but you know they're there's so 812 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: there's so much to this, Yeah, and then you know, 813 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: we want to end it on a little more of 814 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: a positive note, I guess. And as Dr Wagner talked 815 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: about and early in the book the idea of balance 816 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: for the hood in a Johnny is Key, she writes, 817 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: the hood in a Shawnee worldview is based on keeping 818 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: everything in balance. Women and men each have responsibilities they 819 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: must carry out to maintain this balance. The clan mother 820 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: has the entire extended family that makes up a clan 821 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: um and that it's an amazing representation, but it's not. 822 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: It was their lifestyle of what it could be. Yeah, 823 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: it's it feels like we're just saying the same thing 824 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: over andre, but you really it's like, when you read it, 825 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: it's devastating how hard it was for me to even 826 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: envision a lot of this um And it's been here 827 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: this whole time. They've see have been living this life 828 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:19,879 Speaker 1: and finding this balance. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's 829 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:25,280 Speaker 1: interesting because when we think about equality, the word balance 830 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: doesn't come to mind for me, but it is. That's 831 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: exactly what we're asking for, is a balance UM. And 832 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: when balance happens, equity happens so that we can all 833 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: catch up to that the scale is balanced and brought 834 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: back to as it should be and being equal to all. 835 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: But it's such an interesting aspect of seeing that in 836 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: in such a symbolic manner. Does that make sense? But Yeah, 837 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: I love this book. I think everyone should read it. Yeah, 838 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna learn a lot of history that you don't know. 839 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: You're gonna understand and be jealous of a culture that, 840 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: unforly many of the colonizers try to completely destroy UM 841 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: And I'm glad it didn't, And I'm glad it's coming 842 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: back in full force and in at least being in conversation. 843 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: I'm glad you've met someone like got you, Junie Fox, 844 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,720 Speaker 1: who was doing so much to make sure that story 845 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 1: is out there, and for Dr Wagner, who was also 846 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: making sure that she's not only not only shining a 847 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: light onto our own prejudice, but shining a light on 848 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: the rest of us and and letting us know the 849 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: true history behind some of the things that we just 850 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: attribute to a few people, a few white people and 851 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: making it bigger. Yes, yes, I I totally agree that, 852 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:44,239 Speaker 1: like everyone should read this, go watch the documentary. Um 853 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 1: and I know got you, Junie Fox said in her interview, 854 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: and she said this in other interviews. This should be 855 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: taught in schools, and I one thousands agree it should 856 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: be in every school. Absolutely. Yes, well, uh, clearly we 857 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: had so much to say off this. We feel like 858 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,319 Speaker 1: it'll definitely give you a lot to think about. So 859 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: if you haven't already, if there's something else like this 860 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,239 Speaker 1: we should be reading and talking about, let us know. 861 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: We love your suggestions. You can email us at Stephanie 862 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: and mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can 863 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at moms of podcast or on 864 00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You and TikTok at 865 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You. We have a video. You 866 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:30,919 Speaker 1: need to go watch it. Yes, thank you Joey. Yes, 867 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: Joey is amazing and patient. We'll always say thanks to 868 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: our super producer, Christina also amazing evasion. Yes, yes, and 869 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You, the 870 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,320 Speaker 1: the production I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my 871 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart radio app, 872 00:50:46,960 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, wherever you listen to your favorite shows.