Speaker 1: The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now.
Speaker 1: It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid
Speaker 1: it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing
Speaker 1: on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me,
Speaker 1: buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and
Speaker 1: see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones.
Speaker 1: I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but
Speaker 1: you should at least know what's happening, and it is.
Speaker 1: The tour kicks off late September and goes through the
Speaker 1: end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at
Speaker 1: the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They are
Speaker 1: available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour
Speaker 1: or at your local outlet in your region. My name
Speaker 1: is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy.
Speaker 1: I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness.
Speaker 1: On the show today, my guest is an author, public speaker,
Speaker 1: and academic, very very very clever person and if you
Speaker 1: haven't read any of her work, I urge you to
Speaker 1: have a crack at it. She's really clever, and I
Speaker 1: don't agree with her on everything, and that's even more interesting.
Speaker 1: Please enjoy Roxane Gay with the microphone with your finger there,
Speaker 1: so I'm all enough. It's funny though, because you do
Speaker 1: have a quiet voice, and and I'm I but I
Speaker 1: thought it'd be that. But you have a very loud voice,
Speaker 1: but not necessarily in volume correct.
Speaker 2: When I'm writing, I'm very loud, and other than that,
Speaker 2: I'm actually pretty quiet.
Speaker 1: I think that actually being quiet when you're talking is
Speaker 1: a way to make people lean in. I think it's like, wait,
Speaker 1: what what? What's what's she saying? The I you you're
Speaker 1: a very a person of many of opinions. I've been
Speaker 1: reading a lot of your opinions, and I think because
Speaker 1: you've been doing this for quite a while. By the way,
Speaker 1: you're my first doctor of philosophy, so I'm very excited
Speaker 1: to because I want to ask you about philosophy in
Speaker 1: a doctoral sense. But have you ever read do you
Speaker 1: ever write things? Because you've been doing this for a while,
Speaker 1: do you ever look back at stuff you've had an
Speaker 1: opinion on and go I really don't feel that way anymore.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm going to do about that.
Speaker 2: Not really, and it's not because I got it right
Speaker 2: the first time. It's just that most of the things
Speaker 2: that I believe in are for me, fundamental human rights,
Speaker 2: and so, if anything, I've gotten more progressive over time.
Speaker 2: I think the more comfortable I become, the more I
Speaker 2: recognize that everyone should have a certain level of comfort,
Speaker 2: and so it just pushes me further left. The one
Speaker 2: thing I know that I sort of have gotten wrong,
Speaker 2: and there's an essay in one of my first books,
Speaker 2: Bad Feminists, where I talk about how amazing Bill Cosby is,
Speaker 2: So you know, I definitely got that wrong.
Speaker 1: But I think we all got that wrong. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: pick yourself up on you know, you weren't the only
Speaker 1: one I actually was fascinated by. Did you ever see
Speaker 1: Dave Chappelle's take on the whole Cosby thing? Because it
Speaker 1: was fascinating when he was talking about how you can
Speaker 1: admire someone so much and then find out something really
Speaker 1: horrible about him, and what do you do? You know,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he phrased it or framed it in
Speaker 1: a comedic sense, but it's a weird thing. Do you
Speaker 1: ever meet people that you admire? Because I've done this
Speaker 1: a lot. You meet people you admire and go eh,
Speaker 1: particularly actually, you know, God, be honest sometimes writers because
Speaker 1: they can be two different personalities.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have met a lot of people I admire.
Speaker 2: I've been pretty lucky for the most part. I've had
Speaker 2: really good experiences. But there is a disappointment sometimes where
Speaker 2: you have an idea of someone and then you have
Speaker 2: to confront the reality of them and recognize. You know,
Speaker 2: performers are performing and then when they're not in front
Speaker 2: of the camera, they're themselves and we don't actually know
Speaker 2: that person. And I know that intellectually, but when you
Speaker 2: have a favorite and you meet them and they don't
Speaker 2: live up to your imagination, there's a disconnect there for sure.
Speaker 1: It's it's quite an interesting thing because I think now
Speaker 1: writers people, I mean, you're an academic and you talk
Speaker 1: and you're a professor, so I mean there is a
Speaker 1: great there is a stand up in front of a
Speaker 1: room full of people aspect of your job. But it
Speaker 1: feels to me like all writers to an extent have
Speaker 1: to be performers. Now, you can't just write and throw
Speaker 1: it out there. Well you can, but it'll be hard
Speaker 1: to sell it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think a lot of my peers find
Speaker 2: it really frustrating, and I admit I do too, in
Speaker 2: that I became a writer because I don't want to
Speaker 2: be in front of a camera. I don't want to
Speaker 2: be on TV. I'm very fortunate to have had the
Speaker 2: type of career that has afforded me such opportunities, so
Speaker 2: I don't take it for granted. But every single time
Speaker 2: I just think, oh my god, this is not this
Speaker 2: is not what I'm supposed to be doing. But it's
Speaker 2: really hard to find readers, it really is, and so
Speaker 2: it's many harder too. Oh it's so hard. It's just
Speaker 2: hard to sell books, no matter who you are. And
Speaker 2: so many of us have made peace with the fact
Speaker 2: that we have to turn to different avenues to reach readers.
Speaker 2: And that's okay. You know, I like being read, so yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it's an odd thing though, because you I mean,
Speaker 1: I haven't done it. I've done it a bit myself.
Speaker 1: When you write a book and you go on a
Speaker 1: book tour and then you have to read out passages
Speaker 1: from your book, I mean, and I've seen you do it,
Speaker 1: and you're very good at it, but I whatever, excuse me, whatever,
Speaker 1: I've had to do it. I've thought this is I
Speaker 1: want the voice in your head to be your voice,
Speaker 1: in that you know you're reading it in your head
Speaker 1: as a reader. I don't want you to hear even
Speaker 1: doing audiobooks. Do you do audio books of your work
Speaker 1: now as well? You have to write, I do.
Speaker 2: I didn't do my first two or three books, but
Speaker 2: I did my memoir Hunger, and I also did the
Speaker 2: audiobook for Opinions, and I suspect I'll be doing the
Speaker 2: next couple audiobooks as well.
Speaker 1: You have to. I mean, it's just part of the
Speaker 1: game now, Like you're saying, I I did you ever
Speaker 1: have anyone else do an audiobook of your work?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Two really great audio voice actors have done my work.
Speaker 2: Robin Miles has read my fiction both Difficult Women and
Speaker 2: and on Tamed State, and she's such a phenomenal voice actor.
Speaker 2: She could read anything of mine any day of the week,
Speaker 2: and I would be proud to have her interpreting my work.
Speaker 2: And then Bad Feminist in the United States was read
Speaker 2: by Bonnie Turpin, and she is an incredible voice actor
Speaker 2: as well, And again I would happily work with her
Speaker 2: on anything at any time.
Speaker 1: I always thought that I've only ever had one person
Speaker 1: do it once in an anthology of short stories. I
Speaker 1: wasn't available to do the short story that I'd written,
Speaker 1: and they had someone else do it, and it made
Speaker 1: it much better than anything. It's like, oh, that actually
Speaker 1: sounds like proper right. But I don't think that's an
Speaker 1: issue that you ever a problem with. Can I ask you?
Speaker 1: Because bad feminist is where I became aware of you
Speaker 1: at first the Ted Talk really before anything else. But
Speaker 1: I saw the Ted Talk of bad Feminists. I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask you two things about it. First of all,
Speaker 1: how do you do a Ted talk? Who finds you
Speaker 1: to do a Ted talk? Do you apply?
Speaker 2: No? Someone from TED reached out to me and asked
Speaker 2: if I would be interested in doing a Ted talk
Speaker 2: at TED Women, which no longer exists, but at the
Speaker 2: time it did. And I was really scared because I
Speaker 2: don't like public speaking and I know that TED is
Speaker 2: a really big audience. However, they work with you very closely,
Speaker 2: and they you know, there's a reason why TED talks
Speaker 2: look so good and sounds so good, and it's because
Speaker 2: for six months before the Ted talk, they're working with
Speaker 2: you on the talk and so on. Unfortunately, I rewrote
Speaker 2: my talk the night before, so the thing we had
Speaker 2: been working on was something entirely different from what I performed.
Speaker 1: It's quite interesting, though, because when I watch that now,
Speaker 1: because I looked at the Ted talk again, I'd seen it,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was like twenty fifteen or
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen or something. Wasn't there a long time ago?
Speaker 1: What I went back on it looked at you don't
Speaker 1: seem as confident performing then as you do now. You
Speaker 1: kind of you. There's been a real kind of movement
Speaker 1: I think for you in terms of familiarity and confidence
Speaker 1: on stage. Does that happen in writing too? Yes?
Speaker 2: It does. I still I think most writers have a
Speaker 2: certain level of insecurity, not insecurity per se, but anxiety
Speaker 2: about the work and is it good enough? And have
Speaker 2: I said what I wanted to say how I wanted
Speaker 2: to say it. But I'm almost fifty years old now
Speaker 2: and made and so you know, when you've been doing
Speaker 2: it as long as I have, there are certain things
Speaker 2: that I'm more confident about absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1: But does that lead you to get more personal? Because
Speaker 1: you know, your memoirs and stuff like that come a
Speaker 1: little bit later in your career, right, they does it
Speaker 1: help you become more personal as you get more confident.
Speaker 2: No, it actually makes me feel like getting a little
Speaker 2: less personal. But really it does, and only because the
Speaker 2: Internet has become a lot more hostile than it used
Speaker 2: to be, and so I've always been careful about what
Speaker 2: I shared, despite what people may think. I'm a very
Speaker 2: private person, so I've always known what I'm sharing and
Speaker 2: why and what I've held back for myself. But it
Speaker 2: feels like, especially as what is whatever they're calling it now,
Speaker 2: as Twitter has devolved into whatever it is now and
Speaker 2: other social media platforms have gone in a similar direction,
Speaker 2: there's just less I mean, people have opinions, and I
Speaker 2: respect that you don't have to love everything I do.
Speaker 2: I get it. You know, I'm flawed like everyone else.
Speaker 2: But there's a difference between criticism and just cruelty.
Speaker 1: And I agree. And I think there's also the idea
Speaker 1: of that you have to be hostile to someone who
Speaker 1: doesn't have the same opinion of you seems like an
Speaker 1: odd thing, and that's that seems like universal on the
Speaker 1: kind of social platforms, that if someone doesn't have the
Speaker 1: same opinion as me, then it's not the opinion that
Speaker 1: you challenge. It's the person themselves that at home and
Speaker 1: and thing, yes.
Speaker 2: And you're right, everyone does it. I've done it, and
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do better because I mean, there are
Speaker 2: certain opinions like if you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi.
Speaker 2: I understand that and you but I'm absolutely going to
Speaker 2: tell you how horrible you are. Right, And I've been
Speaker 2: talking about this quite a lot lately at events, But
Speaker 2: we are in a very inelastic age where people are
Speaker 2: becoming more and more brittle and calcified and have decided
Speaker 2: that it's their way or no way. And you know what,
Speaker 2: we believe what we believe, and oftentimes we believe it
Speaker 2: very deeply, but there's no way to reach other people
Speaker 2: if we are that calcified. I'm not suggesting that if
Speaker 2: we all sit together in a circle and hold hands,
Speaker 2: the world will be a better place. And when it
Speaker 2: comes to certain issues that people are particularly committed to,
Speaker 2: there is no compromise, Like you can't compromise on the
Speaker 2: value of human life, you can't compromise on the ills
Speaker 2: of terrorism or war. And so it's a question of, well, then,
Speaker 2: how do we talk about these differences of opinion, How
Speaker 2: do we talk about these issues on which we profoundly disagree,
Speaker 2: And the answer is I don't know, And sometimes I
Speaker 2: wonder do we even bother? I hope we do, But
Speaker 2: talking is not going to be enough.
Speaker 1: Is there a Is this maybe a product of recent
Speaker 1: I mean, because I can be as negative about recent
Speaker 1: times as antibody, and I can say, you know, this
Speaker 1: is a time when everyone, everything is polarized, and everything
Speaker 1: is you know, we can't get along. But it also
Speaker 1: seems to me maybe a contrary position is I can't
Speaker 1: think of in any any time And maybe I'm wrong
Speaker 1: about this, but I can't think of a time in
Speaker 1: human history where people attempted to try and get along.
Speaker 1: It was like nowhere the king, nowhere the other king,
Speaker 1: or we think the biscuit turns into Jesus. No, we
Speaker 1: don't think the biscuit turns into Jesus. And there was
Speaker 1: no attempt to try and find that. There was very
Speaker 1: little in the way of attempted to find home and
Speaker 1: grand And I think maybe the frustration of current times,
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to know what you
Speaker 1: think is the idea that we are trying to to
Speaker 1: try and find a way to live in some kind
Speaker 1: of compromise.
Speaker 2: I think some people are, but clearly not everyone. I
Speaker 2: do think a lot of people, but I do think
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who genuinely want to compromise,
Speaker 2: who want to find a way for all of us
Speaker 2: to coexist. But there are so many who don't. And
Speaker 2: we're seeing this right now, particularly with regard to the
Speaker 2: current political climate and the election, where Republicans are at
Speaker 2: least a version of Republicans that are currently in power,
Speaker 2: are doing everything they can to try and rid this
Speaker 2: country of immigrants, and quite frankly, almost all of us
Speaker 2: are immigrants, including them as the other denial.
Speaker 1: That I mean. It's It's an interesting thing though, because
Speaker 1: you know, like most things, it becomes extremely you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, at what point do you join the argument?
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? It's like like, right now,
Speaker 1: there's this thing about illegal immigrants, and I don't want,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts
Speaker 1: of the politics of it, because I feel like the
Speaker 1: minute that we do, our conversation becomes you know, about that,
Speaker 1: And what I'm more interested in is the idea of
Speaker 1: coping with or addressing the disagreement and dealing with the
Speaker 1: fight that we do have to share the same space,
Speaker 1: and we do have widely different opinions, and how does
Speaker 1: the United States of America and the world really how
Speaker 1: do we share the same space if people have radically
Speaker 1: different opinions.
Speaker 2: A I was gonna say, the challenge is that xenophobia
Speaker 2: is not an opinion, and I don't think that we
Speaker 2: should treat it as legitimate when you are saying that
Speaker 2: there are groups of people and they tend to be
Speaker 2: people who are brown or black, when you say that
Speaker 2: those people are criminal, that they eat pets, that whatever, ludicrous,
Speaker 2: that's not actually an opinion. There's nothing to counteract that
Speaker 2: with because if you are so far gone as to
Speaker 2: believe that, then there's nothing we're going to really talk about.
Speaker 1: And not just in case anybody cuts up this conversation
Speaker 1: and size chunks, Let's be clear, it's not me that
Speaker 1: the opinion, because it's like, wow, did he say that? Right?
Speaker 1: Honest conversation. So let me ask you this in the
Speaker 1: let's go back to bad feminist just for me, because
Speaker 1: that was the jumping off point for me because you
Speaker 1: took a you took out a recognizable I want to say,
Speaker 1: it's feminism a polemic. Is it fair to say that
Speaker 1: it's a It's an idea, right? You took an idea
Speaker 1: of modern feminism and you and you extrapolated it in
Speaker 1: a way which I hadn't seen done before you you had.
Speaker 1: Can you explain it a little, because I don't want
Speaker 1: to explain your work to you. You you explained it
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Yes. So my first essay collection, Bad Feminist, which came
Speaker 2: out ten years ago, which is hard to believe, was
Speaker 2: really my way of thinking through my relationship to feminism,
Speaker 2: particularly given that oftentimes we expect feminists to be perfect,
Speaker 2: to have entirely consistent ideas and ideologies, and you know,
Speaker 2: ideally we all should, but we're human, and I wanted
Speaker 2: to be able to write about feminism while also acknowledging
Speaker 2: my humanity, my flaws. And so it's part personal essays,
Speaker 2: lots of cultural criticism where I'm looking at various books, film, television,
Speaker 2: cultural trends, but from a black feminist perspective and from
Speaker 2: a bad feminist perspective, if you will, What is.
Speaker 1: The what is the term bad feminist? Why does it?
Speaker 1: Why does it be bad? Maybe? Can it? Is it?
Speaker 1: Why is it bad? Is it just different?
Speaker 2: It's well, it was partly tongue in cheek when I
Speaker 2: came up with the title yeah, because I was thinking
Speaker 2: about my feminism when I was writing the title essay,
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, I'm definitely a feminist, but
Speaker 2: I'm actually kind of bad at it, because, like you know,
Speaker 2: one of the examples I use in the book is
Speaker 2: that I love hip hop, and so much of hip
Speaker 2: hop is degrading to women and misogynistic and it's a problem,
Speaker 2: and I want to be able to talk about that.
Speaker 2: But I mean, if a certain fon comes on, I'm
Speaker 2: going to probably dance, And so I thought maybe I
Speaker 2: should just call myself a bad feminist. It was also
Speaker 2: a bit more serious in that traditionally feminism, mainstream feminism,
Speaker 2: has prioritized the needs of middle class white women and
Speaker 2: heterosexual women, women who are not disabled, and things like that,
Speaker 2: and they've always teld more marginalized groups. We'll get to
Speaker 2: you later. We have to first lift all women up
Speaker 2: as if we're not women too, And so if that's
Speaker 2: good feminism, I repudiate that, and I'm absolutely a bad feminist.
Speaker 2: So it's part tongue in cheek, part critique.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting situation, because I mean it's completely I mean,
Speaker 1: I completely agree with what you say. I wonder though,
Speaker 1: if feminism is is gender specific, and then when you
Speaker 1: obviously I mean it's about you know, it's about the
Speaker 1: rights of correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying here, but feminism is about equality
Speaker 1: of the sexes. Let's say that that fair thing to say.
Speaker 2: No, I mean I think that it's yes, I mean,
Speaker 2: on the surface, sure, but it's more than equality. It's
Speaker 2: about equity because equality suggests that if we give everyone
Speaker 2: the same resources, things will turn out the same.
Speaker 1: But that's not okay.
Speaker 2: And so what we need to figure out is how
Speaker 2: do we make sure that everyone has equal access to
Speaker 2: what they need in order to thrive. And for different
Speaker 2: groups of people it might be different things. And so
Speaker 2: I tend to focus more on equity than equality. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's really about how do we have gender equity. How
Speaker 2: do we make it such that women are safe, women
Speaker 2: have bodily autonomy, women are listening to, not attacked, etc.
Speaker 2: Equal pay for equal work, support in the home, in
Speaker 2: terms of a more equal distribution of domestic responsibility between
Speaker 2: the genders. For people who are in heterosexual relationships. And
Speaker 2: the reality is that feminism is for everyone and when
Speaker 2: women do better, everyone does better. Children do better, men
Speaker 2: do better. And so it's always interesting that there's resistance
Speaker 2: to feminism because it helps men too. There are all
Speaker 2: kinds of cultural responsibilities that we place on men that
Speaker 2: don't help them, that don't serve them, that force them
Speaker 2: to have to try and live up to some ideal
Speaker 2: of what masculinity is. And if we start to rethink
Speaker 2: what gender is and what it means and what roles
Speaker 2: we are assigned to, and we can challenge all of that,
Speaker 2: I think it just makes everyone happier, safer, and better off.
Speaker 1: I agree If for you say it's true, and I
Speaker 1: believe it is, where does the where does the resistance
Speaker 1: come from? Then who would resist that? It seems like
Speaker 1: it is. It's common sense. If it helps everyone, Why
Speaker 1: wouldn't everyone want to do it? Why what's the motive
Speaker 1: do you think behind the idea of not aliving the change?
Speaker 2: Well, that is the question, and you know that is
Speaker 2: the question. Why why are so many people so resistant
Speaker 2: to gender equity? And part of it is that it
Speaker 2: challenges the systemic power that we have all been raised
Speaker 2: with and a lot of times, when you hold power,
Speaker 2: you don't want to share it. We see this all
Speaker 2: the time, whether it's presidents refusing to seed or older
Speaker 2: people refusing to step aside. You know, what Biden did
Speaker 2: this year was incredibly rare. It just rarely happened. Like
Speaker 2: over at Saturday Night Live, Lauren Michael's is like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm going to ride.
Speaker 1: This books until it's dead.
Speaker 2: It's just like, Wow, you don't think there's anyone else
Speaker 2: in this country or this world who could run SNL
Speaker 2: not like you, but as well. And so people get
Speaker 2: very attached to power, and we're human, So I understand,
Speaker 2: but are we so attached to power that we harm ourselves?
Speaker 1: But power is it is connected to fear as well,
Speaker 1: I suppose, isn't it Like if I don't have this power,
Speaker 1: then I'm vulnerable. I am in danger if I don't
Speaker 1: have this power or I'm mortal, I'll die or I'll
Speaker 1: you know, I won't have I won't be able to
Speaker 1: continue if I don't have what I have right now.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And also I think there's an element of fear
Speaker 2: that excuse me. I know how I've treated people with
Speaker 2: this power, and I don't want that to happen to me,
Speaker 2: so you know, it becomes a bit of a that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you you get yourself. I mean like
Speaker 1: as you say, you're you're coming up on fifty years
Speaker 1: old or you're fifty years old, you're pro arguably the
Speaker 1: peak of you know, human productivity, and you know, and
Speaker 1: you're you're you're firing and on all cylinders right now.
Speaker 1: At what point do you think I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stand back? How do you know it's time to step
Speaker 1: down or step away?
Speaker 2: That's a good question with writing. You know, it's an art,
Speaker 2: it's something that is pleasurable. And I think most writers
Speaker 2: tend to write until they have nothing left to say.
Speaker 2: And I'm not there yet, but I don't know I'm
Speaker 2: going to write until I don't like it anymore.
Speaker 1: I think plenty of writers keep going well after the
Speaker 1: nothing true, very true. But I think that it's kind
Speaker 1: of interesting though, because it requires a degree of self examination.
Speaker 1: Is this unpleasure? You know, it's unpleasant to look at
Speaker 1: yourself and go, am I am I done? I always
Speaker 1: equate it because I think I do stand up comedy
Speaker 1: for a living, and I think to myself well, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sixty two years old. Why am I getting? What
Speaker 1: am I complaining about? You know, when I was young
Speaker 1: on gum go oh and see those things. I don't
Speaker 1: like those things and those other things, and what about
Speaker 1: those guys? And I don't really, I don't really have
Speaker 1: it to say about that. I've said all the things
Speaker 1: I had to say about that. But now I find
Speaker 1: myself talking to my contemporaries about the fact that it's
Speaker 1: falling apart. I suppose that I'm older, and so the
Speaker 1: things that I observe are different. The problem I have
Speaker 1: with it is sometimes you distance yourself from the people
Speaker 1: that you were talking to twenty years ago. Maybe they
Speaker 1: didn't go with you they maybe they didn't travel with you.
Speaker 1: Because things do change. An intelligent mind will alter over time,
Speaker 1: and which is good.
Speaker 2: Actually, I would hope that you know, when you asked earlier,
Speaker 2: have I changed my opinions on anything? Not really, But
Speaker 2: I hope that I'm doing better work, and more thoughtful work,
Speaker 2: and more nuanced work now than ten years ago, fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago. I hope that I'm still growing, that I'm
Speaker 2: still evolving. I think I am.
Speaker 1: I think it's fairly obvious that there is a development
Speaker 1: across your career. I talked to Tony Scott Ao Scott
Speaker 1: from The New York Times Film and Literary critic recently,
Speaker 1: and he said, when he was younger, he too. I mean,
Speaker 1: he still feels the same about what he likes and
Speaker 1: what he doesn't like and how he approaches it. But
Speaker 1: he said when he was young, he felt like every
Speaker 1: every film he didn't like, or every piece of work
Speaker 1: he didn't like, was almost like a personal affront, or
Speaker 1: like a crime that he had to, you know, fight against.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if is there anywhere I mean, it
Speaker 1: was interesting you said there. As you get older, it
Speaker 1: seems to push you more progressive and you get more
Speaker 1: Is there anything where you thought? I really was very
Speaker 1: angry about that, But I see now that maybe there's
Speaker 1: another approach to it. You still don't like it can
Speaker 1: still be an an injustice, but there may be a
Speaker 1: different technique to handle it. No good, it's a fair answer.
Speaker 1: You must No, you can't ever be a politician, because
Speaker 1: because you just said, nah, I don't think there is.
Speaker 2: No I really can't ever be a politician. I have
Speaker 2: no less than zero desire to be a politician. You know.
Speaker 2: I think I I tend to have some generosity toward
Speaker 2: myself when I look back at my work, not because
Speaker 2: I think it's perfect, but it's because I know I
Speaker 2: did the best I could with the skills and the
Speaker 2: knowledge that I had at the time. Right, and you do.
Speaker 2: So I don't lose fire as I get older, but
Speaker 2: I think I have become more judicious about where I
Speaker 2: aim my fire. Okay, so that's what I would say.
Speaker 2: I would say it's less everything deserves my approbation and
Speaker 2: more let me be a little bit more targeted, let
Speaker 2: me be a little more careful. So I think I've
Speaker 2: gotten more careful.
Speaker 1: And more skilled thoughtful. Yeah, yeah, yes. What about the
Speaker 1: the hate and the abuse that anyone who expresses an
Speaker 1: opinion will get? And you express your opinions air you
Speaker 1: dately and loudly, and then an arena where people can
Speaker 1: you know, in topics where people have a lot of
Speaker 1: nasty and bad things to say? Do you have any
Speaker 1: do you ignore it? Do you process it? Do you
Speaker 1: how do you deal with it?
Speaker 2: Depends? I it's challenging. It is the hardest part of
Speaker 2: what I do, because I just when you're a writer,
Speaker 2: you don't really assume that people are going to read
Speaker 2: your work. You tend to think I'm going to be
Speaker 2: writing into a void and there's not much I can
Speaker 2: do about that. And when you are lucky enough to
Speaker 2: find an audience and then be able to sustain that audience,
Speaker 2: you don't only have people in your audience who agree
Speaker 2: with you, of course, nor should you want that. You
Speaker 2: have people who disagree, and then you have people who
Speaker 2: disagree so passionately that they want to tell you about it.
Speaker 2: And then you have the trolls, and there are quite
Speaker 2: a lot of trolls, and so I struggle with it.
Speaker 2: And that's why I left Twitter. I was just I
Speaker 2: was I couldn't do it anymore. I loved Twitter when
Speaker 2: it was good. It was such a great place.
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun, was much fun. I know,
Speaker 1: I remember it, and it was.
Speaker 2: The seventeen years and now it's a complete cesspool.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's just all of it. When that way,
Speaker 1: I loved it. I got into it, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's about twenty ten or something like that. Idiotzard got
Speaker 1: me into it and said, you know, it's just a
Speaker 1: great way to contact people and sell tickets, and it's
Speaker 1: revolutionarized it's going to change the world, and I was
Speaker 1: like great, and it was and then very quickly, well
Speaker 1: not very quickly, just over over time it became because
Speaker 1: these people, the people that were mean, used to being
Speaker 1: a normally, and now it seems like it's it's almost
Speaker 1: that's what you do on these things.
Speaker 2: It's yes, because especially the way the algorithms have been honed,
Speaker 2: they prioritize interaction, and the things that received the most
Speaker 2: interaction tend to be negative encounters, disagreements, talons, etc. It's
Speaker 2: really unfortunate that tech has decided that this is the
Speaker 2: way forward and that so many of us have succumbed
Speaker 2: to that. But it's so hard not to. And I've
Speaker 2: written about this because I do think about it quite
Speaker 2: a lot, and I think part of it is that
Speaker 2: most of us have relatively little power in our day
Speaker 2: to day lives, and then you can go online and
Speaker 2: you can point out an injustice great or small, and
Speaker 2: people will listen to you and they will join you
Speaker 2: in the crusade, oftentimes mindlessly, but they'll join you nonetheless.
Speaker 2: And I think that's intoxicating for a lot of people,
Speaker 2: and even that I can understand. But then it goes
Speaker 2: a bit further, and there are the people who make threats,
Speaker 2: and some of those threats are idle, but many of
Speaker 2: them are not, and you don't know which one is which,
Speaker 2: so you have to take them all serious. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that becomes really that's the hardest part, is not knowing
Speaker 2: like is this death threat real or is this just
Speaker 2: someone having a little weird fun. So that's frustrating, and
Speaker 2: it's unfortunate because I think we should be able to disagree.
Speaker 2: You can even like dislike me, you can make fun
Speaker 2: of me, But why does it get to threats? Why
Speaker 2: do you think that's sort of the next level?
Speaker 1: I think I think perhaps it's. Look, I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to make excuses for anybody, but I think observing it,
Speaker 1: the behavior of it, to me, it seems it's kind
Speaker 1: of like an announcement that I don't have the skill
Speaker 1: to do anything else. You know. It's like I don't
Speaker 1: have the skill to disagree with you. I don't have
Speaker 1: the wherewithal, or the intelligence or the education to combat
Speaker 1: you on a point. I just instinctively want to lash out,
Speaker 1: and I have the only thing I have is insult,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a little bit like Heckler's at a stand up show.
Speaker 1: Most people are just there, you know, and for the
Speaker 1: show and then but that little bit. As a friend
Speaker 1: of mine, a country singer called Trace Atkins, I was saying, hey,
Speaker 1: what do you I was asking them about social media?
Speaker 1: I said, most people are fine, and he said yeah,
Speaker 1: but the way I look at it, it only takes
Speaker 1: one third in the pool to make me enough want
Speaker 1: to get in there. And You're like, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 1: So what do you do? How do you combat it?
Speaker 1: Do you do? You do you shut it down? Do
Speaker 1: you have security? Do you what do you do?
Speaker 2: It depends. I have security at most of my events,
Speaker 2: which is again something I never imagined, but many of
Speaker 2: the threats are directed to the venues where I'm doing events.
Speaker 2: And I speak at a lot of colleges, and I
Speaker 2: teach at a college, and that gives me a lot
Speaker 2: of pause because not only am I there, but other
Speaker 2: people's children are there, and you know, everybody is someone's child.
Speaker 2: Everyone is just you know, a human in their own right,
Speaker 2: and nobody should be in danger because they're going to
Speaker 2: listen to a writer they want to hear, and the
Speaker 2: writer themselves should not be in danger because you disagree
Speaker 2: with their opinions. But there have been bomb threats, there
Speaker 2: have been threats of mass violence, and given this country's
Speaker 2: penchant for mass violence, with ar fifteens and the like,
Speaker 2: you have to take every single threat furiously. So, you know,
Speaker 2: several years ago I started noticing these security guards or
Speaker 2: bodyguards or whatever at my events, and then they started
Speaker 2: like standing closer and closer to me throughout the events,
Speaker 2: and I was like, Wow, this is getting real in
Speaker 2: a way I never anticipated.
Speaker 1: And the experience, I mean, is it right? It's terrib effect.
Speaker 1: Does it affect how you I think I know the
Speaker 1: answer to this, But does it affect what you write?
Speaker 2: No? That's what I I You know, the minute I
Speaker 2: change what I write or what I say, the minute
Speaker 2: I don't go out on stage, I capitulate. And I
Speaker 2: mean we always capitulate one way or another, two different things,
Speaker 2: but not on this. I mean, every time I walk
Speaker 2: out on stage, I just wonder, it's today of the day.
Speaker 2: And that's a horrible feeling. Nobody should have to feel
Speaker 2: that way, nobody, And so I don't relish it. Especially
Speaker 2: I'm married, happily married, so I always worry about my wife,
Speaker 2: who also receives threats now and my parents. People have
Speaker 2: hunted down my parents who are like my mom has cancer,
Speaker 2: my dad is seventy nine, seventy eight. Like what are
Speaker 2: you people thinking? These people are the best people in
Speaker 2: the world. They have never harmed anyone. Why would you
Speaker 2: take it that far just because I wrote something? And
Speaker 2: the reality is, and my critics will be the first
Speaker 2: to tell you this, I'm not that radical. I'm a
Speaker 2: centrist in many ways, and I'm not proud of it.
Speaker 2: I've been pushing myself further left for many years, but
Speaker 2: I am not the most radical writer or thinker out there.
Speaker 2: So what exactly are you responding to here that has
Speaker 2: you so incensed that you have decided to take up spreads?
Speaker 2: It's baffling.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you're a gay black woman, so right there.
Speaker 1: But it's like, okay, there's going to there's a certain
Speaker 1: subject that I already met at you before you even
Speaker 1: say anything. You know, Yeah, It's it's so frustrating because
Speaker 1: I think the radicalization of people is it Maybe this
Speaker 1: is naive, but don't you feel sometimes that if you
Speaker 1: could reach people on a this sounds awful even say that.
Speaker 1: But there's some people you feel like if I could
Speaker 1: sit you down and reach you on your own and
Speaker 1: have a conversation with you, I feel like I could
Speaker 1: get to you. And I'm wondering sometimes if writing isn't
Speaker 1: an attempt to do that. If you can read, you
Speaker 1: can change your mind.
Speaker 2: I would love to believe that were the case, And
Speaker 2: of course that certainly motivates a lot of what I do,
Speaker 2: the belief that you can reach other people. And I
Speaker 2: do believe there are people who are reachable. I also
Speaker 2: believe there are people who are unreachable, and I do
Speaker 2: think I know the difference, but clearly, and history has
Speaker 2: borne this out time and time again, sometimes we need
Speaker 2: something more than reaching people, And like, what do we
Speaker 2: do with the people that can't be reached? And there's
Speaker 2: no solution that I can even begin to think of,
Speaker 2: because I even free speech first and foremost, but I
Speaker 2: also believe that, of course there should be consequences if
Speaker 2: you say terrible things, if you make threats, if you
Speaker 2: say violently racist or xenophobic, or homophobic or transphobic things.
Speaker 2: You don't have to be in prison. That's not realistic.
Speaker 2: But maybe you don't get to enjoy public life as
Speaker 2: much anymore. Maybe people will push back and tell you
Speaker 2: what they think about your trash opinions, and maybe you
Speaker 2: will lose opportunities because people don't want to be associated
Speaker 2: with that kind of bigotry. So I would love to
Speaker 2: believe that we could find ways of addressing these issues
Speaker 2: while preserving the sanctity of free speech. And I think
Speaker 2: thus far we kind of have. But there seems to
Speaker 2: be very little deterrent right now for people to say
Speaker 2: any old thing and get away with it. And that's,
Speaker 2: you know, I guess that's life.
Speaker 1: It's funny that I was reading a book recently about
Speaker 1: a Gorvidale book called Empire was one of the novels
Speaker 1: of Empire series, and in it there's there's discussion or
Speaker 1: a part where it recounts when William Randolph Hurst the
Speaker 1: early part of the twentieth century, had presidential ambitions, but
Speaker 1: he published a quatrain by Ambrose Pearce that foreshadowed the
Speaker 1: assassination of President McKinley. It was and because of what
Speaker 1: happened there, basically William Randolph Hurst's political career, the reaction
Speaker 1: to that basically incited violence or it was perceived to
Speaker 1: be incited violence against the certain president. He was canceled
Speaker 1: for one of a better word of the early part.
Speaker 1: That's when I said he still was an immensely powerful
Speaker 1: romance wealthy man who owned a lot of newspapers and
Speaker 1: did whatever he did, but he didn't get to go
Speaker 1: further in what he wanted to do at that time,
Speaker 1: which was to be president of the United States. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if if there is a specific call to
Speaker 1: violence for an individual, that's not free speech. Absolutely, that's
Speaker 1: not that's not free. Free speech is opinion. Free speech
Speaker 1: is you know, the Voltaire thing. I may not agree
Speaker 1: with what you say, but I will defend to the
Speaker 1: death you're right to say it. I think that was
Speaker 1: Voltai certainly some clever French blow and I think that.
Speaker 1: But the idea that I should be able to say
Speaker 1: what I want about you, it's not actually free speech.
Speaker 1: I think free speech contains it's about the polemic, it's
Speaker 1: about opinion. It's about what you do. You know, because
Speaker 1: I read you and I don't agree with everything you say,
Speaker 1: and I certainly don't want to talk to you about
Speaker 1: the stuff that I don't agree. But what I do,
Speaker 1: but what I do think is that you put it
Speaker 1: forward that way, which is this is what I think.
Speaker 1: You know, this is what I believe, and that I
Speaker 1: think is free speech. I think to threaten someone with
Speaker 1: violence is a very different thing. I don't think, oh
Speaker 1: yeah speech, I.
Speaker 2: Don't either, but I do know that free speech absolutists
Speaker 2: will definitely suggest that that's part of free speech. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I know, I recognize that. You know, we have become
Speaker 2: very fast and loose with the Constitution, but only in
Speaker 2: ways that are self serving, like when you especid and
Speaker 2: I recently wrote an essay about gun ownership and the
Speaker 2: Second Amendment and the ways in which it has kind
Speaker 2: of run amok. And when you look at the Second Amendment,
Speaker 2: which is like fourteen words long, cuty people who defend
Speaker 2: their right to own assault weapons. People are very people
Speaker 2: interpret things the way they want to.
Speaker 1: And so I mean that that's the problem, and I
Speaker 1: think the eternal conundrum is that is trying to live
Speaker 1: with people that you'd rather not love with, whether it's
Speaker 1: whether it's your family or you know, or a whole
Speaker 1: swath of the country. You know, it's difficult. You when
Speaker 1: you were when you were growing up you're you're from
Speaker 1: an immigrant family, your family of patient? Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 1: Now I am. I'm a I'm an actual immigrant. I
Speaker 1: immigrated here. But you know, my children, of course, are
Speaker 1: first generation, and and my value, the values that I
Speaker 1: brought into the with me are not quite the same.
Speaker 1: I actually had one of my oldest kids said to
Speaker 1: me once that I don't need to know this. It's
Speaker 1: not Glasgow in the nineteen seventies. I don't need to
Speaker 1: behave like this. You know, this is of no use
Speaker 1: to me. I can't remember what it was with something
Speaker 1: about carrying a stick in your trousers or something. And
Speaker 1: I think that did you experience conflict with the generation
Speaker 1: that came before because you're the child of immigrants, because
Speaker 1: you are, your values very different to your parents than
Speaker 1: the generation before you.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was definitely conflict, particularly because Haitian culture
Speaker 2: is very I love my culture, it's very it's just unique.
Speaker 2: But Haitian parents, especially my parents their generation, are incredibly strict,
Speaker 2: and so there were all kinds of things that my
Speaker 2: brothers and I wanted to do growing up that we
Speaker 2: were not allowed to do, and that was incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 2: And so there was oftentimes conflict about that, and it
Speaker 2: could be things like as simple as I want to
Speaker 2: spend the night at a friend's house, which absolutely no
Speaker 2: non starter with a Haitian parent, at least for a
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 1: And I'm totally with your parents on this, by the way,
Speaker 1: I have to say, I.
Speaker 2: Mean when looking back now, I'm like, yeah, they were
Speaker 2: kind of onto something there. But you know what's interesting
Speaker 2: is that now I recognize I'm not even recognized. Now
Speaker 2: I understand what they were talking about. Now I understand
Speaker 2: what they were worried about. And I have a lot more.
Speaker 1: Patience.
Speaker 2: I guess that might be the word, but oh yeah,
Speaker 2: there was definitely there's always going to be conflict. And
Speaker 2: sometimes we just be like, you just don't understand, and
Speaker 2: they were like, no, you don't understand, but.
Speaker 1: You teach and you speak. Academic institutions, which of course,
Speaker 1: by the very nature, are pre emily filled with young people.
Speaker 1: Do you find yourself in conflict in a generational term
Speaker 1: with with with opinions that you are surprised that you
Speaker 1: would be in conflict with them about you kind of
Speaker 1: speaking from about Salfie as well, like why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the time, it's so hard I'm teaching. I teach,
Speaker 2: and I've been teaching for fifteen twenty years now, and
Speaker 2: I love it, but I feel like I'm getting to
Speaker 2: the point where I don't necessarily want to do it anymore.
Speaker 2: These the kids are great, and they're allowed to be young.
Speaker 2: It's just this particular generation it's challenging. They and every
Speaker 2: generation has this. So I know that the generation like
Speaker 2: baby Boomers, feel this way about my generation, gen X.
Speaker 2: Gen X feels this way about Gen Z and Gen
Speaker 2: Y or whatever the fuck, but they just partly, especially
Speaker 2: for the kids I'm teaching now, they have known only
Speaker 2: COVID for college, so they didn't even get a traditional
Speaker 2: beginning of the colleg experience, and so they're dealing with
Speaker 2: the cultural trauma of a pandemic and the political fractures
Speaker 2: since twenty sixteen, and there's a lot of challenges. And
Speaker 2: they're also able to articulate mental health issues in a
Speaker 2: way that feels very anathemat of someone my age. Like
Speaker 2: sometimes it's just like, oh my god, they all speak
Speaker 2: in therapy speak. It's not a bad thing. I think
Speaker 2: it's great for people to talk about mental health and
Speaker 2: to talk about their feelings and to advocate for themselves.
Speaker 2: But for someone who's a little older, it's just okay,
Speaker 2: I have to learn all about this now. But then
Speaker 2: also there's just the little stuff like I had a
Speaker 2: student named Faith a couple semesters ago and I was like, oh, Faith,
Speaker 2: it's taking all my self control not the same faith
Speaker 2: to you, And she looked me dead in the eye, blank,
Speaker 2: and she was like, what's that?
Speaker 3: And I was just like, come on, well, I mean
Speaker 3: you must not people do it say it take all
Speaker 3: my effort to not saying rocks and to you as well,
Speaker 3: I mean, you get it.
Speaker 1: No one sings Craig though no one's gonna Craig so
Speaker 1: and we're the lesser for it, but it should be
Speaker 1: rock sanded. It's been an absolute pleasant talking to you.
Speaker 1: I am a huge fan of your work and I
Speaker 1: I and I like I say, I don't agree with
Speaker 1: you and everything, and I love that that you and
Speaker 1: I can sit and have a conversation for forty five
Speaker 1: minutes and it really doesn't have to come up. What
Speaker 1: we can talk about is is interesting, well to me,
Speaker 1: very interesting. I hope it's still being too much, but sure,
Speaker 1: more power to you. Keep on it. Don't give up
Speaker 1: and don't let the bachelards grind you down. I won't
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Craig, Oh, no thout, no bathing,