WEBVTT - Roxane Gay 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.440 The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.920 It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:12.479 it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.840 on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me, 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:18.560 buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.439 see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.919 I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.160 you should at least know what's happening, and it is. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.200 The tour kicks off late September and goes through the 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.000 end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.000 the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They are 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.120 available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.000 or at your local outlet in your region. My name 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:49.040 is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.640 I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:01.040 On the show today, my guest is an author, public speaker, 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.240 and academic, very very very clever person and if you 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.840 haven't read any of her work, I urge you to 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.560 have a crack at it. She's really clever, and I 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:16.120 don't agree with her on everything, and that's even more interesting. 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:26.000 Please enjoy Roxane Gay with the microphone with your finger there, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:31.039 so I'm all enough. It's funny though, because you do 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.679 have a quiet voice, and and I'm I but I 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.680 thought it'd be that. But you have a very loud voice, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.720 but not necessarily in volume correct. 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.959 When I'm writing, I'm very loud, and other than that, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:46.240 I'm actually pretty quiet. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.280 I think that actually being quiet when you're talking is 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.040 a way to make people lean in. I think it's like, wait, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:58.400 what what? What's what's she saying? The I you you're 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.920 a very a person of many of opinions. I've been 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.000 reading a lot of your opinions, and I think because 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.160 you've been doing this for quite a while. By the way, 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.040 you're my first doctor of philosophy, so I'm very excited 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.079 to because I want to ask you about philosophy in 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.120 a doctoral sense. But have you ever read do you 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.600 ever write things? Because you've been doing this for a while, 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.280 do you ever look back at stuff you've had an 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.680 opinion on and go I really don't feel that way anymore. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.240 I don't know what I'm going to do about that. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.720 Not really, and it's not because I got it right 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.840 the first time. It's just that most of the things 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.880 that I believe in are for me, fundamental human rights, 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.880 and so, if anything, I've gotten more progressive over time. 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.880 I think the more comfortable I become, the more I 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.959 recognize that everyone should have a certain level of comfort, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.320 and so it just pushes me further left. The one 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.080 thing I know that I sort of have gotten wrong, 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.480 and there's an essay in one of my first books, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.040 Bad Feminists, where I talk about how amazing Bill Cosby is, 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.560 So you know, I definitely got that wrong. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.600 But I think we all got that wrong. I wouldn't 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:14.720 pick yourself up on you know, you weren't the only 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:20.080 one I actually was fascinated by. Did you ever see 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.880 Dave Chappelle's take on the whole Cosby thing? Because it 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.840 was fascinating when he was talking about how you can 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.519 admire someone so much and then find out something really 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.240 horrible about him, and what do you do? You know, 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.840 I mean, obviously he phrased it or framed it in 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.680 a comedic sense, but it's a weird thing. Do you 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.400 ever meet people that you admire? Because I've done this 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.040 a lot. You meet people you admire and go eh, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.960 particularly actually, you know, God, be honest sometimes writers because 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:52.800 they can be two different personalities. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:58.320 Yes, I have met a lot of people I admire. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:00.880 I've been pretty lucky for the most part. I've had 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:06.560 really good experiences. But there is a disappointment sometimes where 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:11.200 you have an idea of someone and then you have 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.720 to confront the reality of them and recognize. You know, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.960 performers are performing and then when they're not in front 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.080 of the camera, they're themselves and we don't actually know 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.400 that person. And I know that intellectually, but when you 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.880 have a favorite and you meet them and they don't 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.719 live up to your imagination, there's a disconnect there for sure. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.599 It's it's quite an interesting thing because I think now 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.920 writers people, I mean, you're an academic and you talk 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.240 and you're a professor, so I mean there is a 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.760 great there is a stand up in front of a 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.279 room full of people aspect of your job. But it 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.920 feels to me like all writers to an extent have 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.080 to be performers. Now, you can't just write and throw 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:56.880 it out there. Well you can, but it'll be hard 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:57.440 to sell it. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.760 Yeah, it's I think a lot of my peers find 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.080 it really frustrating, and I admit I do too, in 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.719 that I became a writer because I don't want to 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.760 be in front of a camera. I don't want to 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.960 be on TV. I'm very fortunate to have had the 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.560 type of career that has afforded me such opportunities, so 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.279 I don't take it for granted. But every single time 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.479 I just think, oh my god, this is not this 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.160 is not what I'm supposed to be doing. But it's 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.320 really hard to find readers, it really is, and so 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.159 it's many harder too. Oh it's so hard. It's just 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.960 hard to sell books, no matter who you are. And 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.960 so many of us have made peace with the fact 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.120 that we have to turn to different avenues to reach readers. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.800 And that's okay. You know, I like being read, so yeah. 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:52.320 I mean it's an odd thing though, because you I mean, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:53.800 I haven't done it. I've done it a bit myself. 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:55.040 When you write a book and you go on a 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.159 book tour and then you have to read out passages 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.600 from your book, I mean, and I've seen you do it, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.119 and you're very good at it, but I whatever, excuse me, whatever, 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.160 I've had to do it. I've thought this is I 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.080 want the voice in your head to be your voice, 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.320 in that you know you're reading it in your head 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.880 as a reader. I don't want you to hear even 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.279 doing audiobooks. Do you do audio books of your work 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.320 now as well? You have to write, I do. 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.400 I didn't do my first two or three books, but 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.520 I did my memoir Hunger, and I also did the 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.719 audiobook for Opinions, and I suspect I'll be doing the 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.680 next couple audiobooks as well. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.320 You have to. I mean, it's just part of the 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.480 game now, Like you're saying, I I did you ever 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.039 have anyone else do an audiobook of your work? 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:48.240 Absolutely? Two really great audio voice actors have done my work. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:54.400 Robin Miles has read my fiction both Difficult Women and 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.599 and on Tamed State, and she's such a phenomenal voice actor. 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.560 She could read anything of mine any day of the week, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.360 and I would be proud to have her interpreting my work. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.159 And then Bad Feminist in the United States was read 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.880 by Bonnie Turpin, and she is an incredible voice actor 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.480 as well, And again I would happily work with her 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:14.880 on anything at any time. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.239 I always thought that I've only ever had one person 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.160 do it once in an anthology of short stories. I 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.200 wasn't available to do the short story that I'd written, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.000 and they had someone else do it, and it made 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:30.040 it much better than anything. It's like, oh, that actually 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.040 sounds like proper right. But I don't think that's an 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.480 issue that you ever a problem with. Can I ask you? 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.920 Because bad feminist is where I became aware of you 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.920 at first the Ted Talk really before anything else. But 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.160 I saw the Ted Talk of bad Feminists. I'm going 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:46.880 to ask you two things about it. First of all, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.760 how do you do a Ted talk? Who finds you 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:51.160 to do a Ted talk? Do you apply? 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.600 No? Someone from TED reached out to me and asked 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:57.880 if I would be interested in doing a Ted talk 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.440 at TED Women, which no longer exists, but at the 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:05.960 time it did. And I was really scared because I 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.680 don't like public speaking and I know that TED is 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.960 a really big audience. However, they work with you very closely, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.280 and they you know, there's a reason why TED talks 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.520 look so good and sounds so good, and it's because 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.920 for six months before the Ted talk, they're working with 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.920 you on the talk and so on. Unfortunately, I rewrote 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.360 my talk the night before, so the thing we had 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.400 been working on was something entirely different from what I performed. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.080 It's quite interesting, though, because when I watch that now, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:39.360 because I looked at the Ted talk again, I'd seen it, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.320 you know, I think it was like twenty fifteen or 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.400 twenty sixteen or something. Wasn't there a long time ago? 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.880 What I went back on it looked at you don't 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:53.360 seem as confident performing then as you do now. You 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.559 kind of you. There's been a real kind of movement 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.920 I think for you in terms of familiarity and confidence 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:05.280 on stage. Does that happen in writing too? Yes? 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.880 It does. I still I think most writers have a 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.480 certain level of insecurity, not insecurity per se, but anxiety 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.280 about the work and is it good enough? And have 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.600 I said what I wanted to say how I wanted 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.680 to say it. But I'm almost fifty years old now 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:29.560 and made and so you know, when you've been doing 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.080 it as long as I have, there are certain things 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.319 that I'm more confident about absolutely, you know. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.679 But does that lead you to get more personal? Because 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:40.679 you know, your memoirs and stuff like that come a 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.680 little bit later in your career, right, they does it 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.439 help you become more personal as you get more confident. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.439 No, it actually makes me feel like getting a little 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:54.600 less personal. But really it does, and only because the 0:09:54.679 --> 0:10:01.199 Internet has become a lot more hostile than it used 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.400 to be, and so I've always been careful about what 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.959 I shared, despite what people may think. I'm a very 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.520 private person, so I've always known what I'm sharing and 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.960 why and what I've held back for myself. But it 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.120 feels like, especially as what is whatever they're calling it now, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.839 as Twitter has devolved into whatever it is now and 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.360 other social media platforms have gone in a similar direction, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.800 there's just less I mean, people have opinions, and I 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.880 respect that you don't have to love everything I do. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.760 I get it. You know, I'm flawed like everyone else. 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:42.160 But there's a difference between criticism and just cruelty. 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.600 And I agree. And I think there's also the idea 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.880 of that you have to be hostile to someone who 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.679 doesn't have the same opinion of you seems like an 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:56.760 odd thing, and that's that seems like universal on the 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.320 kind of social platforms, that if someone doesn't have the 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.840 same opinion as me, then it's not the opinion that 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.400 you challenge. It's the person themselves that at home and 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.400 and thing, yes. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.000 And you're right, everyone does it. I've done it, and 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.640 I'm trying to do better because I mean, there are 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.120 certain opinions like if you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.079 I understand that and you but I'm absolutely going to 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.040 tell you how horrible you are. Right, And I've been 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.200 talking about this quite a lot lately at events, But 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.800 we are in a very inelastic age where people are 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:39.000 becoming more and more brittle and calcified and have decided 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:45.400 that it's their way or no way. And you know what, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.800 we believe what we believe, and oftentimes we believe it 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.920 very deeply, but there's no way to reach other people 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.640 if we are that calcified. I'm not suggesting that if 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.920 we all sit together in a circle and hold hands, 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.040 the world will be a better place. And when it 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.679 comes to certain issues that people are particularly committed to, 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.640 there is no compromise, Like you can't compromise on the 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.440 value of human life, you can't compromise on the ills 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:18.720 of terrorism or war. And so it's a question of, well, then, 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.560 how do we talk about these differences of opinion, How 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.280 do we talk about these issues on which we profoundly disagree, 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.800 And the answer is I don't know, And sometimes I 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.960 wonder do we even bother? I hope we do, But 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:35.680 talking is not going to be enough. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:42.079 Is there a Is this maybe a product of recent 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.679 I mean, because I can be as negative about recent 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.760 times as antibody, and I can say, you know, this 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.040 is a time when everyone, everything is polarized, and everything 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.600 is you know, we can't get along. But it also 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.600 seems to me maybe a contrary position is I can't 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.840 think of in any any time And maybe I'm wrong 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.200 about this, but I can't think of a time in 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.640 human history where people attempted to try and get along. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.560 It was like nowhere the king, nowhere the other king, 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.560 or we think the biscuit turns into Jesus. No, we 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.960 don't think the biscuit turns into Jesus. And there was 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.439 no attempt to try and find that. There was very 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.319 little in the way of attempted to find home and 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.440 grand And I think maybe the frustration of current times, 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.080 and maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to know what you 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.720 think is the idea that we are trying to to 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.920 try and find a way to live in some kind 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:38.120 of compromise. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.320 I think some people are, but clearly not everyone. I 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.559 do think a lot of people, but I do think 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.720 there are a lot of people who genuinely want to compromise, 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.439 who want to find a way for all of us 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:59.640 to coexist. But there are so many who don't. And 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.200 we're seeing this right now, particularly with regard to the 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.480 current political climate and the election, where Republicans are at 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.040 least a version of Republicans that are currently in power, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.920 are doing everything they can to try and rid this 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.199 country of immigrants, and quite frankly, almost all of us 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.760 are immigrants, including them as the other denial. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.480 That I mean. It's It's an interesting thing though, because 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:31.200 you know, like most things, it becomes extremely you know, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.480 I mean, at what point do you join the argument? 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:37.640 Do you know what I mean? It's like like, right now, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.000 there's this thing about illegal immigrants, and I don't want, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:42.760 I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.560 of the politics of it, because I feel like the 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.520 minute that we do, our conversation becomes you know, about that, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.760 And what I'm more interested in is the idea of 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:59.680 coping with or addressing the disagreement and dealing with the 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.560 fight that we do have to share the same space, 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.160 and we do have widely different opinions, and how does 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:10.240 the United States of America and the world really how 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.840 do we share the same space if people have radically 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:13.720 different opinions. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.000 A I was gonna say, the challenge is that xenophobia 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.840 is not an opinion, and I don't think that we 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.120 should treat it as legitimate when you are saying that 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.280 there are groups of people and they tend to be 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.680 people who are brown or black, when you say that 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:37.000 those people are criminal, that they eat pets, that whatever, ludicrous, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.000 that's not actually an opinion. There's nothing to counteract that 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:41.920 with because if you are so far gone as to 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.960 believe that, then there's nothing we're going to really talk about. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.400 And not just in case anybody cuts up this conversation 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.800 and size chunks, Let's be clear, it's not me that 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:58.680 the opinion, because it's like, wow, did he say that? Right? 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:12.000 Honest conversation. So let me ask you this in the 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.200 let's go back to bad feminist just for me, because 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.920 that was the jumping off point for me because you 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.960 took a you took out a recognizable I want to say, 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.400 it's feminism a polemic. Is it fair to say that 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.680 it's a It's an idea, right? You took an idea 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:34.840 of modern feminism and you and you extrapolated it in 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.960 a way which I hadn't seen done before you you had. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:41.520 Can you explain it a little, because I don't want 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.520 to explain your work to you. You you explained it 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:43.760 to me. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.000 Yes. So my first essay collection, Bad Feminist, which came 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.200 out ten years ago, which is hard to believe, was 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:57.440 really my way of thinking through my relationship to feminism, 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:01.760 particularly given that oftentimes we expect feminists to be perfect, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.280 to have entirely consistent ideas and ideologies, and you know, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.600 ideally we all should, but we're human, and I wanted 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.760 to be able to write about feminism while also acknowledging 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:18.600 my humanity, my flaws. And so it's part personal essays, 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.399 lots of cultural criticism where I'm looking at various books, film, television, 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:29.359 cultural trends, but from a black feminist perspective and from 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.800 a bad feminist perspective, if you will, What is. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.760 The what is the term bad feminist? Why does it? 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.679 Why does it be bad? Maybe? Can it? Is it? 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:41.119 Why is it bad? Is it just different? 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.080 It's well, it was partly tongue in cheek when I 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.000 came up with the title yeah, because I was thinking 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.879 about my feminism when I was writing the title essay, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:53.920 and I was like, well, I'm definitely a feminist, but 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.040 I'm actually kind of bad at it, because, like you know, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:58.840 one of the examples I use in the book is 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:00.960 that I love hip hop, and so much of hip 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:06.280 hop is degrading to women and misogynistic and it's a problem, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.080 and I want to be able to talk about that. 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.040 But I mean, if a certain fon comes on, I'm 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.920 going to probably dance, And so I thought maybe I 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.000 should just call myself a bad feminist. It was also 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:21.080 a bit more serious in that traditionally feminism, mainstream feminism, 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.680 has prioritized the needs of middle class white women and 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:30.040 heterosexual women, women who are not disabled, and things like that, 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.840 and they've always teld more marginalized groups. We'll get to 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.160 you later. We have to first lift all women up 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.400 as if we're not women too, And so if that's 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.680 good feminism, I repudiate that, and I'm absolutely a bad feminist. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.120 So it's part tongue in cheek, part critique. 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:53.400 It's an interesting situation, because I mean it's completely I mean, 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.800 I completely agree with what you say. I wonder though, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.159 if feminism is is gender specific, and then when you 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.840 obviously I mean it's about you know, it's about the 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.080 rights of correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.960 know what I'm saying here, but feminism is about equality 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.680 of the sexes. Let's say that that fair thing to say. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.920 No, I mean I think that it's yes, I mean, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.919 on the surface, sure, but it's more than equality. It's 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.360 about equity because equality suggests that if we give everyone 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.359 the same resources, things will turn out the same. 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:32.640 But that's not okay. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.320 And so what we need to figure out is how 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.679 do we make sure that everyone has equal access to 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.560 what they need in order to thrive. And for different 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.960 groups of people it might be different things. And so 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.320 I tend to focus more on equity than equality. But yeah, 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:53.400 it's really about how do we have gender equity. How 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.200 do we make it such that women are safe, women 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.480 have bodily autonomy, women are listening to, not attacked, etc. 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:07.000 Equal pay for equal work, support in the home, in 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:12.520 terms of a more equal distribution of domestic responsibility between 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:17.040 the genders. For people who are in heterosexual relationships. And 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:22.440 the reality is that feminism is for everyone and when 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:27.200 women do better, everyone does better. Children do better, men 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.480 do better. And so it's always interesting that there's resistance 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.760 to feminism because it helps men too. There are all 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.479 kinds of cultural responsibilities that we place on men that 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.600 don't help them, that don't serve them, that force them 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.680 to have to try and live up to some ideal 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.960 of what masculinity is. And if we start to rethink 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.240 what gender is and what it means and what roles 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.480 we are assigned to, and we can challenge all of that, 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.560 I think it just makes everyone happier, safer, and better off. 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.200 I agree If for you say it's true, and I 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.359 believe it is, where does the where does the resistance 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.119 come from? Then who would resist that? It seems like 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.080 it is. It's common sense. If it helps everyone, Why 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.960 wouldn't everyone want to do it? Why what's the motive 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.320 do you think behind the idea of not aliving the change? 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:29.320 Well, that is the question, and you know that is 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:34.680 the question. Why why are so many people so resistant 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.359 to gender equity? And part of it is that it 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:44.600 challenges the systemic power that we have all been raised 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.240 with and a lot of times, when you hold power, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:48.679 you don't want to share it. We see this all 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:53.960 the time, whether it's presidents refusing to seed or older 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.880 people refusing to step aside. You know, what Biden did 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.959 this year was incredibly rare. It just rarely happened. Like 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.680 over at Saturday Night Live, Lauren Michael's is like, Yeah, 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:04.320 I'm going to ride. 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:05.840 This books until it's dead. 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:09.680 It's just like, Wow, you don't think there's anyone else 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.320 in this country or this world who could run SNL 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.480 not like you, but as well. And so people get 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.600 very attached to power, and we're human, So I understand, 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.240 but are we so attached to power that we harm ourselves? 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.160 But power is it is connected to fear as well, 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.480 I suppose, isn't it Like if I don't have this power, 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.240 then I'm vulnerable. I am in danger if I don't 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.040 have this power or I'm mortal, I'll die or I'll 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.159 you know, I won't have I won't be able to 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.440 continue if I don't have what I have right now. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.400 Absolutely, And also I think there's an element of fear 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.520 that excuse me. I know how I've treated people with 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.320 this power, and I don't want that to happen to me, 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:01.240 so you know, it becomes a bit of a that's interesting. 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.040 Yeah, I mean you you get yourself. I mean like 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.000 as you say, you're you're coming up on fifty years 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.359 old or you're fifty years old, you're pro arguably the 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:17.120 peak of you know, human productivity, and you know, and 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.680 you're you're you're firing and on all cylinders right now. 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.760 At what point do you think I'm gonna I'm gonna 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:27.280 stand back? How do you know it's time to step 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:28.439 down or step away? 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:32.400 That's a good question with writing. You know, it's an art, 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.960 it's something that is pleasurable. And I think most writers 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:38.280 tend to write until they have nothing left to say. 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.560 And I'm not there yet, but I don't know I'm 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:42.280 going to write until I don't like it anymore. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.399 I think plenty of writers keep going well after the 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:51.600