WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 6 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:30.240 can make your own decisions. God Area, Garrison takeover. I 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.080 asked for some grunting that was like a word, Okay, 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.800 what it was? I know lots of they could have 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.040 been here, and openings have become bastards. Openings now just 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.600 kind of opening. Robert doesn't have more than one type 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.440 of opening. There's two. There's there's grunting and then yelling 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.360 something weird that is that's basically the same learning how 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.720 to do your job is cut shit. Also, to be honest, 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.640 most of the time, doesn't know which podcast he's doing. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.200 Are all what is this are we doing? Is this 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:07.000 the daily zeitgeist? Is this is Jack O'Brien, this is 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:14.679 this is it could happen here. So we're talking today 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:19.560 about the different things that are it um here being 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.960 the States this time. UM, but we're talking about basically, 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:24.679 over the course of the past few months, we have 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.080 covered a few different topics on the show, UM, some 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.760 of which have already kind of had some results of 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.000 had updates to what we've already covered. So we're I'm 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.720 gonna I'm gonna go through a list of like a 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.560 three different things that we've covered and talk about kind 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.320 of the updates in these stories. UM. You know, most 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.920 of what we've covered around these topics have been like 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.880 a mix of original reporting and interviews. So now there's 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:49.800 been further further work down on this and this we're 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.040 not kind of update people. If you know, they're not 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.800 as termally online as us, maybe they have not heard 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.680 that there's been changes to these stories. And I wanted 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.640 to kind of put together a nice, little concise thing 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.480 talking about updates to all the things we've covered. UM. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.400 So the first thing that we're gonna be talking a 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.960 bit about is the cops City in Atlanta, and they 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.280 defend the Atlanta Forest Coalision. So I think like a 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:18.240 day after our episode dropped on that, UM, Atlanta City 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:23.079 Council voted UH ten to four in favor of getting 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.480 the militarized police training facility greenlit Um, nicknamed Cops City. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.320 There was seventeen hours of public testimony. We're seven seventy 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.320 of the callers spilk out against the facility. Yeah, I 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.480 mean that we had that happen in Portland. It doesn't. Yeah, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.840 it never matters. It doesn't matter what the vast majority, 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:44.440 especially when there's especially when this money involved. Do not 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.240 do not ever be deceived into thinking that you live 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.399 in a democracy and that you actually want to matter. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.200 Is in any way, shape or form, this is just 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.760 not This is empirically not true. Like like sixty percent 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:00.160 of Texans periods support vaccine mandates in some instances, but 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.560 the governor just made it illegal to do them. Ever. Um, 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.520 Like it's it's it's that way across the board, across 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:09.760 the nation. Um. People ask sometimes because like you know, 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.440 when you get into anarchists discussions of politics, there's a 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.720 lot of criticism of democracy. I don't I think democracy 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.840 is a lovely idea. I would like to try it something. 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:19.560 It would be nice to get it ago, it would 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:24.000 be nice to experience. So Yeah, this city council voted 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.080 to least the acres of city owned forest land to 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.600 the Atlanta Police Foundation UM, at least eighty five acres 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.360 of which is going to be slated to become the 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.760 police training facility. UM. The facility is going to cost 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.600 around ninety million dollars. Jesus Christ, I could train cops 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.760 much cheaper than that, although training is the wrong word. Yeah, 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:45.880 that is the wrong word for that. UM. So yeah, no, 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.240 nine million dollars. It's gonna include. It's gonna include a 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.480 state of the art explosive testing facility, firing ranges, emergency 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.600 vehicle operations course, a classroom space UM, and an emergency 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.800 and an emergency proper space. So we'll probably learn to read, right, 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.640 I'm sure it's for teaching people to do bad things. UM. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.560 There's going to be an emergency helicopter pad and an 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.800 entire like mock town. It is good that they have 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.600 the emergency helicopter pad because cops shoot each other with 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.640 live ammunition all the time, and that that does happen. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.680 It does happen a lot. So yeah. The main backup 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.480 for this project UM is the Atlanta Police Foundation, which 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.719 is a political advocacy group that you know, has a 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.200 lot of funding from corporations and they try to you 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.760 know sway the political power of the city into giving 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.440 more power to the police. Um uh huh. So the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:37.839 interesting thing about this though, is like the vote was 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.880 supposed to happen in AUGUSTUM, but it was rescheduled for 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.280 early September after there was a lot of public backlash 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.200 around this proposal. Um. Then the vote that was supposed 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.479 to happen ont got pushed back the whole day because 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.880 there was too many callers saying that they didn't want 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:54.920 the facility. So the vote got pushed back a day 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.679 in September, but it stays still voted for it. Yeah, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.560 so thirty million dollars is going to be footed by 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.719 taxpayers and the other sixty million is going to get 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.680 paid for by the Police Foundation, which has a lot 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.560 of different like corporate donors. So that's that's that's that's 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.600 that um. And of course it's on you know, on 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:17.520 this forest land, which is like some of the biggest 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.840 forest land in any major American city. So you know, 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.120 they're tearing down all this forest to build this concrete 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.800 city to train cops in. We should also mentioned that 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.760 at the end of her interview with some of the 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.560 people resisting this, they basically said like, if the vote 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.880 goes through, resists is going to continue, so we will continue. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.520 There's probably gonna be efforts to like actually try to 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.440 physically prevent the construction of this. But the next thing 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.839 we're gonna be talking about is stop line three um, 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.360 which mean there was also you know, physical efforts to 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.919 prevent that. But the type of efforts that people usually 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.760 do in you know, modern green activism usually are a 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.760 lot more performative or they're specifically to pressure to create 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.719 means that will try to convince politicians to veto the process. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.440 So it's not you know, it's it's it's different from 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:09.880 the nineties when it was easier to like actually physically 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.279 stop the prevention of things. Now a lot of the 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.520 people who you know are trying to do this, it 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.880 is they're not convinced that, you know, doing a lock 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.440 box is going to actually physically prevent it. What it's 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.240 gonna do is create media coverage that truck that is 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.680 going to hopefully convince politicians to be like, hey, maybe 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.160 we shouldn't do this, and that's a hard bargain, right, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.560 That's not there's no saying that that's actually going to 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.280 do the thing. You know, in the in the case 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.960 of stop Line three that did not stop Line three. Um. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.560 There was a really good uh um critique of the 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.880 stop Line three protests posted in It's Going Down by 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.840 an indigenous anarchist who lives on that land who was 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.400 like younger, um, and they're you know, watching all of 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:50.720 these you know, older indigenous anarchists, you know, keep on 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.240 getting arrested and brutalized. Like, but we're not actually doing 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:54.960 anything in the methods that we're doing that the methods 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.719 that we're trying to like, you know, gain public support, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.000 this isn't working in this specific context. Maybe we should 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.760 reevaluate what we're actually doing. I know It's going down 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.200 faced a bit of backlash for posting that critique, but 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.200 I think that I think the critique is actually worth reading. 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.880 Any any other thoughts on the Atlanta thing before we 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.000 move on to the stop line three stuff, um, No, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.720 no other than to note that I think the best 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.960 brisket I've ever had came from Atlanta. Okay, well, I'll 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.800 probably I'll probably visiting Atlanta in the near future, maybe 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.040 there with you, um, in which case I'll get some 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.640 more motherfucking brisket. Yeah, it was actually the fun story. 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.360 We were road tripping through town, me and in another 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.120 friend in another car, and we were talking over radios 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.280 and a trucker got on like the channel we were 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.400 on because we were talking about where to get barbecue, 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.360 and he told us where to go. Um, it was neat. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.040 It was like an actual nice like like moment of 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.800 CB radio connection. Like this guy was just scanning the 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:50.200 waves and found us and I was like, oh, I 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.760 can tell you where to go anyway, continue Garrison. That 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.040 was completely unrelated to stopping line three. So the next 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.760 thing is earlier, I think in September, maybe August if 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.520 it's been a while. H we we we posted two 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.600 episodes about me visiting the top Plane three protests and 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:07.920 the Earth First camp, and a lot of stuff has 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.400 happened since then. Um, so you know, the main you 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.440 know thing is that the pipe planet has been finished 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.000 now um and is basically getting is ready to be operated, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.520 or it probably already has some operation. It's unclear how 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.160 much is being used right now, but it is done construction. 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.040 It doubles the capacity of the original pipeline. It's gonna 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.920 be doing like a seven hundred and sixty thousand barrels 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.040 of oil a day, so in the e carves outland 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.040 through through wet lands where people grow wild rice and 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.439 do hunting. Um So, overall the past few months police 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.120 arrested over nine hundred people, and it's there's been a 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.120 lot of like felony charges specifically for locking down, which 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.079 is pretty new because they're using felony theft charges for 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.440 people just locking down to equipment. Yeah, that is an 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:57.120 unfortunate escalation. Yeah. Um So by the time we posted 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.800 our top line three episodes, we kind of already figured 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.120 this was going to be the result that That's kind 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.360 of how he ended the episode saying there's been all 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.959 this resistance, but probably it's going to get built, and 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:08.920 you know, there's other things that we can learn from 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.240 this movement going on into the future. Um But the 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.600 new developments that have happened, um I. I did mention 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.880 in the episodes how much Enbridge was directly paying cops. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.440 That was something we already knew that what was happening, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.160 But there was an article by The Guardian that really 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.360 gave a lot of new information around how much police 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.480 involvement there is with like with Enbridge, Like they are 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.720 actually coordinating a lot. So overall, Uh, Enbridge has reimbursed 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.959 US police almost two and a half million dollars for 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.880 arresting and surveying protesters. UM, also paying for like food, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.599 lodging gas. It's like it's they're not not just not 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.120 not just paying wages, they're paying like for extra stuff 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.400 as well. So at least at least two and a 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.280 half million dollars that's been paid from the Canadian oil 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.040 company um, you know, including that includes officer officer training, UH, 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.040 police patrol routes, surveillance, all this kind of stuff. UM. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.199 The one one interesting thing that was noted in the 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.079 article is that the company at Enbridge meets daily with 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.360 police officers to discuss intelligence gathering and patrols um. And 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.880 when and when Enbridge wants protesters removed, it directly calls 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.000 or sends letters to police, so they they actually like 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.040 coordinate when to actually get police involved during protests, and 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.360 they have at least daily information meetings. The one other 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.280 interesting thing besides just directly paying them for food for 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.680 you know, training, equipment and the coordination between end Bridge 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.440 and people being on the ground, is um how much 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:42.360 that the Enbridge paid for uh like proactive safety patrols 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:47.440 and specific like specific officer surveillance following alleged activists like home, 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.160 so they would like trail specific cars for a long 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.640 time and try to like do like in person surveillance 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.719 on specific people they thought were activists. And all of 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.959 this time was paid for by end Bridge and was 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.719 being coordinated with Bridge. So it's not just you know, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.600 paying for training, it's not just for paying for equipment. 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.719 It's specific surveillance of certain people. And that is I 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.240 don't know, that's something that we weren't We did not 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.920 really know the depths of that for sure, but it's 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.920 pretty it's pretty messed up. I know. We we suspected 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.720 some of this coordination before, like when we talked about 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.760 police showing up to the Stop Line three camp and 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.040 blocking off access to the road. Um, this was at 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.040 the same day that drilling under the river was just 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.680 being finished, and we so we suspected like, yeah, there's 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.320 like Embridges obviously talking with police to prevent people from 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.800 leaving so that they can they can finish up this 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.120 specific drilling project that was that was pretty obvious to 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.120 us at the scene. Um, And now we have you know, 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.800 extra confirmation that yeah, they do like meet daily to 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.839 coordinate these types of things. Um, so it's good to 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.880 have that extrame confirmation of the stuff we already like 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.200 suspected and stuff we already kind of like put together 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.280 through experience. But now we have like, you know, court 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.600 documents and records showing the extent of the coordination. All right, 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.120 well we'll talk about terrorism, but you know who else 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.319 is a terrorist? Oh boy? The products and services that 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.880 support this podcast are all right in a good way, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.439 you know, like um, you know, like uh like a 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.880 kind of alright, well, it's it's complicated, all right, Do 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.520 ads just run ads stuff? Oh so it will probably 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.120 funnier if you bleep out the name of the terrorist organization. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:29.680 This is how we this is how we pick up 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.680 from the ad brancast. You say that. So, um, Garrison, 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.719 we got some some critiques that came in to the 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.360 old news line, by which I mean people deemed me 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:47.000 on redditch. Yeah. I never respond, Um, I almost never respond. 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.160 It's nothing against people. I just don't like being communicated with. Um. 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.120 But too many, too many people ask me to send 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.120 messages to you and like, yeah, Garrison, you're not I'm 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.880 not like, that's not what I'm ricks And welcome to 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.760 the last three years of my life. Uh yeah, anyway, Yeah, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:14.960 I mean, but that's funny, Sophie. Ah. Um. There were 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.559 people who were like, hey, I don't know if you 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.280 know this, but Earth First has a problematic history with 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.199 like eco fascism and that sort of stuff. Just like 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.760 that too. Yeah, and it's it's one of those things. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.559 They definitely are an organization that has said things in 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.079 the past that I don't agree with. There's been specific 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.920 people who do organizing with them that don't have great 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.040 beliefs specifically around like you know, a lot of like 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:38.920 in the old Green movements has been you know, a 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.640 lot of like transphobia, some like racism. Um. It's it's 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.320 not because they're the green movements. Like all left spaces 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.679 deal with versions of variety stuff, you know, not like 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.120 respecting like indigenous people. Um. You know that that's been 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:57.320 that's been a thing. Um. But the specific term eco 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:02.640 fascism I believe is incorrect um because they don't advocate 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.560 for the genocide of a specific group um. And they 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.959 don't have like far right populist policies. So like you 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.520 can have bad opinions and bad ideas and you can 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.080 actually be racist without actually being fascist, especially eco fascist. Um. 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:19.720 So I feel like people throw that word around a 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.120 lot and they don't actually know what it means. Um, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.240 But what were you specifically referring to, Robert Um. I'm 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.080 trying to find the message here. But because I got 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.840 a message saying that Earth First is bad because they're 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.400 anti natalists, that means they're fascist, which isn't definitely got that, 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.160 which isn't actually like I'm just going to disagree with 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.760 that because I don't think anti natalism equits fascism, especially 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:47.080 antien natalism. For like, antenatalism is basically saying, don't don't 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.120 make people, maybe we should maybe we should stop having 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.280 more kids right now because you have a lot of 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.800 problems to deal with and maybe we shouldn't be having like, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.240 you know, three kids, which is it's not a take. 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.000 I'm not an anti natalist. I don't actually disagree with 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:02.680 that take though, but I think it's more in the 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.760 line of, like, the most fundamental of all human desires 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.800 for the majority of the population is to make more people, 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.240 which is kind of why I like anti natalism, because 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.920 it has that thing that's opposite to one of a 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.840 lot of humans natural reaction and like, no one's forcing 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.520 anti natalists, don't want to force you to be anti natalist. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.240 Bring up this as an idea, Yeah, and I think 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.480 it's a valuable idea to discuss. And I don't think 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.680 it's I don't think you're I don't think you're embracing 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:36.200 like the massacre of human beings or Genesis. The way 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:37.920 by saying like, I think it'd be best if we 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.040 didn't make anymore not planning a arguable point. I'm not 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.160 planning to have any kids because I don't see why it, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.440 especially when there's so many like children that can be adopted. Garrison, 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.880 we talked about you having kids so we could experiment 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:53.840 with making them blue. This is a separate conversation that 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.080 we're not talking about involving. We are not talking about 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.000 this on the plot. Will just include that tantalizing hint. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.880 I also just think in general, when we talk about 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.960 a group that's had a long history and a specific 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.800 thing they're doing in the present, yeah, this has happened 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.440 in another situation, whe people like, well, you know they 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.080 did this or some one of them said this. And 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.200 there's a couple of things I feel about that. For 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.600 one thing, it's it's like it's entirely possible that the 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.800 people doing the thing in the present day have nothing 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.760 to do with the people twenty years ago. Yeah, like 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.040 most of the people out there First Gathering Gathering were 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.520 like in their twenties and around my age, Like they 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.320 weren't in the they weren't in Earth First Night, Like 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.640 that's not like so I feel like silly about kind 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.600 of making them be held accountable for something somebody else 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.200 said under a similar banner decades ago. And on the podcast, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.200 I talked about how like people on the Earth First 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.240 Earth First Gathering like talked about this stuff, like the 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.920 people talked about Earth First like history and how they 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.440 haven't handled some issues very well. There was a lot 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.920 there was a massive effort for this gathering to like 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.120 um to like uplift and make sure everyone focuses on 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.480 indigenous voices, like they invited over multiple indigenous groups to 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.280 give talks on green resistance and like land back like that. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.440 That was a big focus of like making sure that 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.320 this actually is something that has hurt because people know, 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.040 like this is, yeah, this is something important, this is 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.600 something that actually should be done, and there are I 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.680 think in general, and we talk about like holding organizations 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.600 and individuals accountable for their past. Um, what matters is 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.200 like a mix of what they did and what they're doing. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.920 So obviously, if Earth First had been saying twenty years ago, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.520 we need to wipe out all the Jews, I would 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.280 be like, I wouldn't care what they were saying. Now, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:38.840 you know, it would be like, yeah, you can't really 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.359 come back from that. If you want to do a 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.600 completely different thing, it needs to be a new organization. 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.000 But they weren't. And I'm not saying that where I'm 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.680 just making an example, but like, as a rule, I 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.840 think we should embrace the fact that organizations and people 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.199 can change throughout time and be better than they were 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.520 in the past, um and and learn from mistakes and flaws. 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.280 And I feel pretty unwilling to condemn individuals or organizations 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.360 for the mistakes of their past, although that is dependent 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.760 upon the kind of mistake and the harm that it cost. Yeah, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.720 and like and how they address it in the futures, 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.240 like a lot of these Yeah, because like it wasn't 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.640 like the First as an overall organization of specific people 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.560 they were affiliated with, like you know, specifically UM like 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.520 UM Edward Abbey has said some not great things around 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.560 different different different social issues, and his books were extremely 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.920 influential on the beginning of green resistance. But that's something 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:30.639 people talk about now, Like that's something that is like 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.639 discussed and debated. Um and he was and he was 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:35.600 like even in the eighties and nineties, he was like 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.680 kicked out of Earth First gatherings for kind of being 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.080 a loser, like for for having these bad views. Were like, yeah, 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.240 we probably shouldn't have you here anymore. Leave go away. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.160 So like that was something that was even talked about 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.520 back like back then as well. That is that isn't 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.320 just a modern thing. Yeah, and I think in general, 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.000 number there's a couple of things. Number One, whenever we 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.960 talk about like an organization in a specific context they're 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.920 doing this, that doesn't mean we're embracing everything they've done. 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.560 And number two, whenever we talk about the history of 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.960 of of of a movement or a group, I hope 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.879 nobody ever takes that as like, here is the authoritative 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.479 stance on the history of this thing. Like it's when 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.440 we talked about the Black Panthers. There's a bunch of 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.720 stuff we left out that's very important. Um My hope 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.639 with those episodes, and I hope with anything we do 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.520 is that it like inspires people to want to learn 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.640 more and read more, and we're giving them a basis 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.639 of understanding that they can use to expand their knowledge 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.080 on an important topic. So please, we are we are. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.040 There's like one thing, uh collectively that that Garrison and 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.680 I have any kind of expertise on, and uh, outside 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.200 of that, you should not take anything we say as like, 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.960 here's the comprehensive history of of this because it's I 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.240 I understand one thing, and it's it's how the internet 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:58.800 makes people shitty. Yeah, so yeah, um yeah, I mean 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.400 that that was something that this whole It was something 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.320 I thought about when writing these episodes is how much 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.120 to include of this stuff? And I did not feel 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.680 like it was super important to discuss this stuff because 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:08.639 it wasn't relevant to the topic of stop lines. I 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:10.920 think you didn't something relevant to the topic of like 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.159 the current ongoing green resistance. If we want to do 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.520 like a history of green activism, then yes, this is 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.120 something that that would be that. Yeah, and I think 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.640 like at some point we probably should do absolutely about 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.200 just like mirror and like all of that ship. But 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.000 like that there's a kind of stuff we want to 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.119 talk about that we haven't yet because it's a daily 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.240 show and my God, give us some fucking time. People 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:37.720 speaking of Edward Abbey, you know what, huh sells quality 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:43.240 monkey wrenches. Okay, alright, that's fine. The maybe one of 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:47.639 our sponsors. It's I hope so as hardware. It's hardware. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.800 As hardware sponsoring us, they do sell. You can get 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.200 some good monkey wrenches from Ace Hardware quality for fixing 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.040 your faucet, for fixing your faucet. So go get wrench 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.880 pilled and then listen to the rest of the show. 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.480 Well we're back. We just had a good discussion about 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:05.520 what we're gonna talk about, and we realized that it 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.919 wasn't after the ad break, So here we are. Um. 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.080 In in early September, we had an episodes about both 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.399 California's climate and the ongoing recall election against Gavin Newsom. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.160 So a few days after our episodes dropped, the things 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.200 like the day the day the second one dropped was 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.880 was election day. Um we we we got the results 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.719 in faster than what I was expecting. Um and Uh 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:34.360 Newsome did handily beat uh Larry Elder with like yeah, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:40.800 so people people voted sixty one no and liket yes. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:46.080 Uh so he Knewsome did a decent job and pushing 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.720 off elder Um. So this, this, this whole recall processed 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:55.320 costed California taxpayers two hundred and seventy six million dollars. 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.360 It's not like we needed the money for anything else. Garrison. 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.680 Come on, Yeah, so you know a few takeaways. We're 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:06.399 going to spend it on fighters literally anything else. Water 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:11.520 giving California needs water and firefighters. Garrison coming giving houses 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.840 to people who need houses. I don't know. Um. Yeah, 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.960 so takeaways from this, The recall process still should absolutely 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:22.359 be invented. Yeah, it should require should require more than 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.560 twelve signatures at the last voter turnout. Um. And the 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.480 government should be requiring to get to if you're if 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:30.960 you're gonna be elected in the government, you should be 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.159 required to get a majority of votes. Um. Not not 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.399 not just a plurality of a specific you know sect. 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.760 So there's the whole we we we we talked about 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:41.640 the specific reasons why it was bad in those episodes. 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.600 Those are still those are still like, those are still valid, 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.520 those are still relevant because there's still the same issues. Yeah, 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.800 and none of the fact that this turned out well 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.960 had anything to do with the Democratic Party who very 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.760 nearly bungled it. And it and it doesn't it doesn't 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.280 really impact. It doesn't impact you know, the Californias climate 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.440 issues so much. And like just because new Sims in 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:05.399 office doesn't mean they're going to get much better. You know, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.240 there's still things that he needs to be pushed on 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.320 to to you know, make the climate a little bit 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.960 more habitable. In the meantime, it it means that we 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:20.399 will continue stumbling towards a cliff. Rather than speak so 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:25.800 generally what voting for Democrats means, I will say, it's 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:31.640 interesting to me that it doesn't seem like you can 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:35.080 get the vote was rigged thing to work unless the 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.119 election is like kind of this is the next thing 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.520 I was going to talk about. Um, Yeah, because because 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:44.440 like in the week before the election, the Fox News 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.240 Republican Party and Larry Elder and even Trump, We're really 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.080 starting to ramp up this idea that if Elder loses, 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.639 that means the election was rigged. Uh. This was like 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:54.840 they were really pushing this hard and you know, spreading 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:56.879 like they were giving links to a website like before 0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.360 he lost even to be like, if you know, when 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.920 I lose, use this website. I was like, okay, that's okay, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.159 that's weird. Um. But on the night of the election, 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:08.720 Elders seems to kind of claim climb down from the 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.160 inflammatory like rhetoric around the election. In his concession speech, 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.240 he told supporters, let's be gracious and defeat um. So 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.760 he once the actual results were in, he really climbed 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.320 that down. So we can read into that. The other 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:24.000 thing I want us to read into here is that 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.680 could this could this rhetoric around if we lose, that 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:31.800 means it was rigged? Could that disenfranchise Republican voters from 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:34.600 even showing up if they believe that all elections will 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:37.600 be stolen from them? Well that being that they'll be 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:39.560 less Republican turn out if there's just if they think 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:41.960 that it doesn't matter. So that's the other side of things, 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.520 Like I'm not sure if if if the other side 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:49.040 effects that this that this rhetoric could have. Yeah, there's 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.400 an interesting So during during the last election like national 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:55.280 election cycle, there is one trement to use people who 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:57.640 weren't voting in Florida, And I thought it was really 0:24:57.680 --> 0:24:59.680 interesting because there were there were several people they talked 0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:01.560 to who we're like, yeah, I don't vote because last 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:03.679 time I voted was two thousands and they stole the election, 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:06.440 which was literally which which yeah, and and you know 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.480 i'd say that, yeah, Like I think it is slightly 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:15.000 different when like two thousands, when actually like literally but 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.160 there was there was the bricks like there there there 0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:20.920 Roger er Stone, Yeah, Roger Stone led a riot to 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:25.480 stop like the votes from being counted, like whatever, weird Bush. 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.680 I think people people got like like a bunch of 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:31.360 people with like vaguely black names got like their names 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.359 struck off the like the voting roles. Like there was 0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:37.560 a lot of yeah, but yeah, And I don't I 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:40.280 don't know if it'll if it if the effect can 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:46.800 work that strongly when it's like completely bullshit which was, 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:49.640 I think it's yeah, interesting, I don't know. It's it's 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.440 hard to say because it's it's it's unclear whether the 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:55.840 voter turnout on the because like you know, there were 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.320 times where they were pulling like fifty fifty between between 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:03.560 between newsm an Elder, and it's unclear. I think definitely 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:06.840 the big advertising push that corporate donors gave to Newsom 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:09.879 in the month before the election did help get Democratic 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.280 voter turnout, you know, like people voting for new getting 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:19.520 people scared about the governor. That not was not ineffective, 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:21.680 that that very much works. That did increase turn out there, 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:24.480 But I don't know because like with the whole election 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:28.040 being stolen rhetoric, that could both increase Republican voter turnout 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.040 and there's also the side effect now where maybe it 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:33.480 could decrease it because they're just disenfranchised about this concept. 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:35.800 But this is kind of just speculation at this point. 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:38.600 I don't have actual data backing up this claim right now. 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:40.840 This is just something that I thought about while running 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:42.560 this right up, I'm like, huh, I wonder if this 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:44.800 could be a contributing factor in the future. People really 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:46.840 I feel like they're always gonna lose. Maybe they just 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.960 not not even are going to bother um. But it's 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:51.600 hard to say. It's like, you know, the main reason 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:55.399 why Elder lost wasn't due to newsome strength. That was 0:26:55.480 --> 0:27:00.680 because Elder is like, it's completely like he it was 0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:05.920 like it was the most yeah, like widely unqualified and 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:09.440 like one of the more extreme candidates like running and yes, 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:11.760 he did get a lot of support among Republicans, but 0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.680 among moderates and people you know, left of center in 0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:18.639 terms of like an American spectrum. Uh, they're like, yeah, no, 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:20.520 this is gonna be a disaster if he gets elected. 0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:22.680 And that's the main reason why he didn't. Um, it's 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:25.560 not due to Newsom being great. But I mean, Sophie 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:27.920 did mention a few things that Newsom has done since then. 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.240 Um so do do do do you want to say 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:33.560 the specific details just so I don't have to look 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:38.080 famously a big Newsome fans So yeah, not come on. 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:45.240 Uh so not to give news some credit because this 0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:48.720 is like an obvious right thing to do situation. But um, 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.960 at the beginning of October, the Senate Bill seven was 0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:55.800 signed into law. It was an unanimous vote and Newsom 0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:58.040 signed off on it to give back Bruce's speech, which 0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:02.280 was owned by a black family, Willa and Charles Bruce, 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:07.280 back in their land was illegally taken away from them. 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:10.960 It's a beach front plot in Manhattan Beach. And I 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:14.040 signed into a lot of give it back. Uh that 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:18.160 is I mean, yeah, yeah, more of that should be done. 0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:20.040 I mean that it is kind of the basis of like, 0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:22.600 you know, that is one side of land back, is 0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:26.280 just giving land back to people who used to have it. Yeah, 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:28.680 of course this is this isn't tied to indigenous stuff. 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:30.920 But you know, I've seen people make that same comparison 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:32.520 for like, yeah, we should just be doing this more 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:34.880 in general to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, that's 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:37.840 a I'm glad that that was done. It's also now 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:41.360 illegal to remove a condom without consett in California, which 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:45.920 is wait what Yeah, you're going to have to change 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:54.960 a lot of things about how you have sex with Californians. Yeah, 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.760 during intercourse, that's the it's the first state to do that, 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:01.240 first of all. Huh. Yeah, and it's wild because under 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:07.560 any reasonable definition, that's rape. Yeah yeah, it's just rap. Yeah, 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:11.400 it's absolutely rape. California also now requires menstral products in 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:16.720 public schools, so that's a bare minimum. And that I 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:18.600 didn't realize that it happened. Yea. And I want to 0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:20.640 be clear here, I'm not giving you some credit for this, 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:23.960 but if he had lost the recall ellection, none of 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:27.240 this would be happening. No, it's nice that he I'm 0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:29.480 sure some of this was him. Kind of providing a 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:32.840 sop to the people who lined up to stop the recall, 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:36.520 and those are good things that were done. Yeah, And 0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.000 I think I think that's sort of an important thing 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:41.920 to understand about when politicians occasionally do good things. It's 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:46.560 like they don't do good things because they want to 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:49.959 do them. They they they do things that benefit from 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:52.040 you because they're either in some ways scared of you, 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.280 or it's because they need to buy they buy you off, 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:57.120 and and that that is, you know, that is that 0:29:57.240 --> 0:30:00.160 is a legitimate way that good things happen. Like, I've 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.400 got a couple other Uh, there's been a lot signed 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:05.640 in recently, So I got a couple of other ones 0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:07.600 that I that I think are relevant to our show. 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:12.560 California will not streamline extend assisted death law, So that's 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:15.080 that's good. That reduces the time until terminal patients can 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:18.959 choose to be given fatal drugs. So starting January one, 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:22.240 the waiting period required time a patient makes separate oral 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:25.160 request for medication would drop to forty down from the 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:33.600 current minimum fifteen days. That is pretty rad Yeah, I mean, 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:38.719 there's just there's there's a I mean, we'll see if 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.640 it's it's hard a lot, there's a lot. It's it's hard, 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:45.160 it's hard to be like worse than Larry Elder. Yeah, 0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:51.000 that's this one definitely would not get get through for California. 0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:53.880 California Acts, a lot of strip badges from bad officers, 0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:58.280 like very vaguely written, is very vague. But yeah, well 0:30:58.440 --> 0:30:59.960 we'll see what happens to Like, No, none of the 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:02.440 stuff would have happened under a larial thing. And I 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:04.880 am surprised at like surprised that some of those things 0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:07.800 actually got through because I'm I'm surprised that democratic politicians 0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:10.200 would actually vote for those things we put office. That's 0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:15.280 why I was like basicallyasically like the condom thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:17.560 And I was not expecting that to go through some 0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:21.920 science legislation to extend to go cocktails. Wait, all right, 0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:30.560 that's sure, Okay, more where am I to cocktail heads? Sorry? Alright, 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:33.840 So at least larryl there's not in office. There's still 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:37.280 a lot of climate issues and maybe this rhetoric around 0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:40.040 stealing the elections not gonna work every single time they 0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:42.880 do it. Um, that's kind of the main that's the 0:31:42.960 --> 0:31:45.440 main things that I was going to talk about, and 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:47.680 it is it is. I mean, one of the things 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:49.480 that people are talking about in a lot of the 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.840 spaces I generally agree with is like the foolishness of 0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:55.440 voting as harm reduction. And there's been a lot of 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:57.360 if you want to believe that it isn't, there's been 0:31:57.360 --> 0:31:59.520 a lot of information coming up from the Biden in 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.200 a the Ministry ation that will support that belief. Um. 0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:04.760 But what we're saying right now in California's group that 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.520 can be like the these are not none of this 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:11.200 is going to fundamentally change the major problems that are 0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:14.239 confronting us. But but a bunch of those things are 0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:16.720 going to, Like life's going to be easier for some 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:19.400 little girls whose families don't have much money. You know, 0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:22.640 life got easier for that one family who got their 0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:25.760 land back. Um, you know, potentially it's going to be 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:29.040 easier to get bad police officer or to get particularly 0:32:29.120 --> 0:32:31.680 bad police officers off the street. And that's not that's 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:35.280 not nothing like when we say voting can be and 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.560 I'm not saying that it usually is, but when we 0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:41.600 it can reduce harm, that's what it means. It means 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:45.640 that like oh, some bad things that that would be 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.640 worse are not as bad because of this, not that 0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:52.040 everything is better, A lot of stuff will be the 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:55.120 same and is the same in California, like ecologically, nothing 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:58.560 logically fundically fundamentally changed, but some ships a little easier 0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:02.960 for certain groups of people as some stuff and specific specifically, 0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:07.120 I think the getting getting more like contraceptive products and 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:09.680 menstrual products inside public schools is one of the literally 0:33:09.720 --> 0:33:12.040 the best things we can do, like like for the 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:14.440 whole country. It is like something that if that was 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:17.560 required in every public school, that would make so many 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:22.240 people's lives better a ridiculous degree significantly reduces harm in 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:25.200 a specific way. And I think that just because like, yeah, 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:26.600 I mean, it's not going to stop us all from 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:30.760 burning up, um, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:35.240 So those those are the three stories that I wanted 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:37.560 to give some updates for, um because I know, you know, 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:40.360 there were changes happened, you know, very soon after posting 0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:43.600 those episodes. UM. I still think the California ones are 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:45.160 worth listening to because they do lay out a lot 0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:48.640 of stuff around around California's climate, UM and the specific 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:50.920 weird stuff that it has with its specific weird things 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.280 that has with its election process. Um, I think the 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:55.680 line three episodes are going to be pretty good to 0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:59.120 go back to as well. Um, and then uh, I 0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:01.960 at the the specific Cop City thing in Atlanta, that 0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.400 is the stuff that I am. It's gonna be the 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.120 most like ongoing thing stills because that's going to be 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.320 an ongoing project. So I'm sure we'll come back to 0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:14.320 the Cops City at different points throughout the next few months. 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:19.000 So that that that that that's the updates. Um. Any 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:22.480 any any closing notes from either Christopher, Robert or Sophie. Yeah, 0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:26.799 just just I do well excuse me, okay, sorright Sophie. Sorry, 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:29.439 just I just just remind him we've said this earlier 0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:32.920 in the episode that like we're just giving you brief 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:35.120 brief sniffets about this stuff. There's a lot there's a 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.359 lot of really good articles online that go go deep 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:41.520 into these things, and we'll post our sources on the website. Yep, yeah, yeah, 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:43.439 we we we we do. We do a good job 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:47.520 I think most of the time. Yes, yes, but we 0:34:48.000 --> 0:34:52.200 were great. Yeah, we're we're the only heroes. That's fair 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:56.080 to say, absolutely, But do you do not have a 0:34:56.239 --> 0:35:00.200 podcast be the only source of information absolutely lot of 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:07.120 things like don't listen to if you think more of 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:09.920 a of a left perspective, that is that that goes 0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:12.719 in some directions we don't. It's going down. Is a 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:17.279 lovely place to check out Margaret Killjoy's um uh live 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:21.040 Like the World Is Dying. St Andrew's YouTube channel. Um 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.880 he does some some really incredible stuff. Um. You know, 0:35:25.160 --> 0:35:27.759 there's all sorts of good people out there. And then 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.800 also like history books more than anything, like history books, 0:35:31.040 --> 0:35:34.440 history books for the thing that radicalized me. Yeah, if 0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:37.280 you want to read more about the new sub notable 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:40.960 laws signed recently, the k c r A and Sacramento 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:45.640 did A did a really good breakdown article. Oh sorry, 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:48.880 so it it's okay. And and as a note, we 0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:52.080 will be doing more episodes like this over time, as 0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:56.399 like stories that we cover have additional things happen to them. 0:35:56.480 --> 0:35:58.040 This is like we don't want to just be like 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:02.000 dropping a story and then ignore whatever happens next. Um. 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:04.160 Sometimes that don't mean following up with people that we're 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:06.080 talking to on the ground, but you know, we are 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.400 trying to like keep you updated on the things that 0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:11.799 we think are important, you know, even when they end 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.840 uh in a in a broadly positive sense or whatever. 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:18.440 And uh, lastly, what was the name of that brisket 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:20.520 place in Atlantic, because I'm sure people are gonna ask 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.160 about it. Oh, I don't remember. It was some shitty 0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:27.279 little place in the middle of South Atlanta. Um and 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:30.160 like a fucking strip mall that was really helpful. I 0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:32.120 don't remember. So if it was like eleven years ago, 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:34.960 what do you I don't remember the best brisket you've 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:38.600 ever had, and it was but the best. Like if 0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:41.520 you know anything about good barbecue, the best barbecue you 0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:44.200 ever have is either cooked by like your uncle or 0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:46.840 is cooked in some shitty little place with a diastern 0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:49.120 that wouldn't pass a code inspection. That is true that 0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:53.560 the more the more codes it violates, the better than bisket. Um. Anyway, 0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:56.520 if you see the chef actively ship on the grill, 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:01.320 that means just going to be incredible. Jesus Christ, Twitter 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.719 and Instagram, what happened here? Poticles out media? Subscribe to 0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:08.040 the feed and leave a five star review. That's it. 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:11.960 Don't don't don't shoot on your brisket grill on everything? 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:34.560 Alrighty Garrison, is that good? Is that the show? No? 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:37.759 Just keep going? Though Okay, well it could happen. Here 0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:42.480 is the show that A tonal noise is my introduction 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:46.120 this week because I'm a hack in a fraud. Who 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:48.720 isn't a hack in a fraud? Is is our guest 0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:53.240 this week. St Andrew. St Andrew, you are a solar 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:58.640 punk anarchist from Trinidad. Um. You have a YouTube channel, 0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:02.359 UM where you talk about solar punk. Um you talked 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.720 about stuff like seed bombing. Yeah. I'm just very excited 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:07.000 to have you on the show because I'm a big 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:09.839 fan of YouTube channel. Thank you, glad to be here, 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:12.480 big fan of your work as well, Andrew. I kind 0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:16.839 of wanted to start with why this Why solar punk 0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:20.320 is important? Because, um, I think it's easy for folks 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:21.680 who just kind of skim it to see it. It's 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:23.480 just like, oh, it's an aesthetic. It's maybe an art 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:27.239 style or a fiction style. UM. Maybe something that's neat, 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:29.960 but not something that has like a lot of inherent 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:33.600 value to people trying to change the world. And obviously 0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:36.080 you disagree with that. I disagree with it to UM. 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:38.320 A quote I keep coming back to again and again 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:41.719 is one from Werner Herzog in the nineteen seventies and 0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:43.480 it was something along the lines of I think that 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:45.800 without better myths, were destined to go the way of 0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:52.480 the dinosaurs. Um. Actually of I forget his name right now, 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:56.720 But there's this excellent, excellent book called The Truth About Stories, 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:00.520 and I think what it really emphasizes is throwing the 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:04.400 book is the importance of stories, on how stories impact 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:06.960 how we navigate the woot, which is why I sort 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:10.480 of embraced the punk you know, as a story that 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:14.799 we can work with green forward. Yeah, I think, Um, 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:19.520 I think it's incredibly important to have better stories, better 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:22.640 myths because for one thing, I think where the Left 0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:27.759 falls down a lot is not having is accurately diagnosing 0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:32.719 the problems without providing a better look at at the 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.800 at the future, you know. Um. And when the problems 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:38.480 are when the people who do kind of propose solutions, 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:41.640 it's often um not in a way people can feel. 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:45.120 One of the benefits that that that the right has, 0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:49.120 that fascism has, is that they they're very good at 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:52.239 providing people with myths and providing people with kind of 0:39:52.320 --> 0:39:56.760 a fictional look at at their idealized world that draws 0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:58.879 people in. You know, you can laugh at the right 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:01.400 you know, they have lot of people that work on 0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:07.640 like meta narratives and that's very, very core to their ideology. Um, So, 0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:10.680 I guess where I'd like to start with you, Andrew, 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:12.640 because this is kind of the first time I think 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:16.040 we've really talked about solar punk on on this show, 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.400 even though from the beginning before any of these episodes dropped, 0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:21.799 this was always a central part of our discussion about 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:24.680 what the show was was going to be. Um, would 0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:27.880 you kind of provide an introduction to to what solar 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:33.200 punk is for our listeners? Sure? Sure, So I would 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:36.480 say that solar punk is a vision of the future 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:40.960 that places emphasis on the existing world and how we 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:44.279 get to that future from where we are now. So 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:48.560 it emphasizes the need for environmental sustainability, for self governance, 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:52.480 and for a toronomy and social justice. It emphasizes the 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:57.560 need for you know, human and ecocentric ends to really 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:03.040 be in sync, and it aims to really heal the 0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:08.400 current rift between humanity and Nietzsche. It also recognizes, of course, 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:13.480 that there isn't this binary between climate change happens and 0:41:13.719 --> 0:41:18.040 climate change doesn't happen. Rather, it understands that how we 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:24.120 navigate it, we Uh, have a variety of consequences and 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:26.799 some of the positive, some of the negative, but it's 0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:31.359 up to us to really shape that. Yeah, and it's UM. 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:33.960 I want to drill into a couple of facets of that. 0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:36.440 But I want to quickly plug one of your YouTube 0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:38.719 videos for folks who kind of want a more involved 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.960 um explanation and background. You have a video called what 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:46.440 is solar Punk on your channel Saint Andrewism like Andrew 0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:49.239 I s m UM that I think is a fantastic 0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:52.680 introduction not just to like the aesthetics of solar punk, 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.759 but some of the practical some of the practical kind 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:57.919 of expressions of it. And and two of the ones 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:00.680 you lists like examples of here's here's what this is 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:03.560 is like actual practis you know, and not just an 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:07.080 aesthetic is seed bombing um. And then you talk about 0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:10.880 this this very interesting kind of like terra Cotta air conditioning, 0:42:10.920 --> 0:42:13.640 which I think is I think it's neat because it's 0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:16.200 it's one of the problems that I think with kind 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:20.960 of some versions of of of particularly kind of on 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:24.240 the more liberal end of of of solar punk imagining 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:27.760 is just sort of like ways of replacing um, ways 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.840 of gaining the same kind of consumptive benefits that exist, 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:35.319 I guess not even not even like greenwashing, right, greenwashing. 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:42.359 Like here, let's get the same consumptive benefits we get scrapers, yes, skyscrapers, 0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:45.680 the same level of consumerism, same level of you know, 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:50.240 destructive extractive practices. But we have some flowers and some trees. 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.560 So yeah, and that's not enough. But at the same time, 0:42:53.640 --> 0:42:57.040 there are things that aren't. Like air conditioning is contributes 0:42:57.120 --> 0:42:59.880 massively to climate change. It's also not a luxury. Like 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:01.640 if you live in a place where it's a hundred 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:03.239 and twenty degrees a lot of the summer, that's not 0:43:03.320 --> 0:43:06.279 a luxury. Yeah, this is going from someone in a 0:43:06.320 --> 0:43:13.040 tropical country. Yeah, definitely a necessity. Yeah, So I wonder 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:16.440 if you could talk about kind of those two, I mean, 0:43:16.680 --> 0:43:18.239 or if you have different ones you'd like to pick, 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:19.800 but just kind of what you see is sort of 0:43:19.840 --> 0:43:23.080 the practice expressions of solar punk, sort of beyond the aesthetic, 0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:25.000 although we're going to drill into the aesthetics some too, 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:27.719 because I also think that's important. Right, So, I think 0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:31.840 some of my favorite manifestations of the punk in a 0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:36.719 practical context, things like um, gorilla gardening. Grilla gardening is 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:39.600 probably the biggest one because it's one that someone could 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:43.239 literally pick up and do today or tomorrow, you know, 0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:45.080 as soon as they hear about it, doing about it. 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:48.239 Just get some clay, get some seeds, you know, and 0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:51.440 put those things together. Then as you're walking home or 0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.400 walk into the store, just toss them wherever there some 0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:58.720 free dude. UM. So that's a fun one. There's also, 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:03.880 of course things like little bit one involved, like community 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:08.600 gardening and particularly forest gardening, because that will provide a 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:13.520 level of food autonomy and agency for people who have 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:16.680 been healing it for a long time from the process 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:22.239 of food production. UM. They're also practices like compassing or 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:26.800 corpach ng and it's like a way to produce lumber 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:31.120 without chopping down a whole set of trees, so you 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:34.680 are able to get the wood from the trees, but 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:41.640 the tree remains alive. UM. There's also things like, of 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:47.680 course solar powered technology, whether it be algae based UM 0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:53.400 windows that you know extract energy from the sun, or 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:59.160 solar sales or solar ovens uh or like the terra 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:05.080 cotta deconditioning, which, by the way, I learned recently contrary 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:09.080 work in a human environment. Yeah, but yeah, there are 0:45:09.080 --> 0:45:12.200 a lot of difference opportunities there also there are things 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:15.279 like you know, tool shares and make up spaces and 0:45:15.800 --> 0:45:19.000 seed libraries, all different ways to sort of bring it 0:45:19.080 --> 0:45:26.120 into fruition that is. Yeah, and I uh, I think 0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:31.080 a lot of that's really valuable. UM. I'm interested in 0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:38.480 in parts sort of your your attitude on UM what 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:46.000 let me think about how to phrase this, UM, what 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:47.960 do you think are kind of the things as we 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:49.719 talk about sort of the things that can be at 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:53.879 least potentially replaced UM with with less extract of less 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:57.319 consumptive methods. Is sort of an example of solar punk 0:45:57.360 --> 0:46:00.600 practice is replacing those things. There's also things that we're 0:46:00.960 --> 0:46:03.080 not going to be able to have if we actually 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:06.920 want to live in a more sustainable UM future that 0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:09.920 that doesn't contribute to some of the nightmares that we're 0:46:09.920 --> 0:46:13.920 all going to be increasingly facing. UM. You're you know, 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:16.799 and again, I think it's it's telling that so much 0:46:16.880 --> 0:46:21.080 of kind of the future fantasies of that are written 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:23.160 by people who come from you know, my part of 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:26.440 the world. United States focus on like kind of post 0:46:26.520 --> 0:46:31.520 scarcity methods of of guaranteeing the continuation of consumption just 0:46:31.719 --> 0:46:35.120 through in some cases like fantastic methods um you know, 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:38.879 magical three D printers and the like. Um, you come 0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:41.160 from a very different part of the world, very different perspective, 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:43.319 what do you see as the things that like, we're 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:47.560 going to have to give up? Coming from a country 0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:51.680 that is actually reliant on oil and natural gas production, 0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:55.920 we have to get rid of cause we definitely absolutely 0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:59.120 have to get rid of cause um free to ships 0:46:59.160 --> 0:47:04.640 as well, and really the whole way that you know, 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:08.239 global supply chains are structured right now. Not to say 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:12.200 that they won't be any sort of global um sharing 0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:15.439 of resources in the future, but the way that it's 0:47:15.480 --> 0:47:18.640 happening right now, it can't continue to go on. We 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:22.480 can't continue to structure our cities and our lives around 0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:28.799 cause you know, and other methods of gas guzzlin transportation 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:32.279 because we're literally going to run out. And we've known 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:36.480 this for a long time, but it's nearing. The day 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:40.680 is nearing, CLUSI and clusa, and yeah, we we have 0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:43.880 to find a way to do without it. Yeah, and 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:47.200 it's it's I think tell like, there's a couple of 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:49.359 things that are important. One of them is you can't 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:53.400 just say we have to stop global trade because in 0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:58.160 global travel, because the people have have sought and done 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:00.400 that for as long as there have been people in 0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:03.239 one form or another. It's it's a fundamentally human thing. 0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:06.680 But there are aspects of it, like you know, expecting 0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:09.320 that every kind of fruit and vegetable will be available 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:11.200 year round, which is certainly thing that we in the 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:16.080 United States expect. Um. That doesn't that that's not part 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:18.600 of a realistic future. Um. And if it's part of 0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:20.120 the future, then it's only going to be part of 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:23.040 the future for an ever shrinking chunk of of the country. 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.560 And you can see that in sort of um or 0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:27.480 of the of the West, and you can see that 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:30.800 in kind of um the like what we're dealing with 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:33.480 right now with like the supply line shortages and failures, 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:35.759 and like one of the I think the symbols of 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:38.680 how far we have to go in my country is 0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:40.680 the degree to which people are freaking out by the 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:44.120 fact that Christmas presents might be late. Um. Let alone 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:46.440 being like, yeah, you might not be able to buy coffee, 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:50.320 um um ever, or all the time you know, you 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.759 might not be able to get tomatoes in December. Um, 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:59.160 which UM, I think one benefits too for the gattening. 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:02.560 And that's what's in my inset is as you learn 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:06.040 to so you also learn to reap. Right. So a 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:07.840 lot of people who get into grilla gardening also end 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:10.440 up getting into foraging, and they are absent stuff you 0:49:10.440 --> 0:49:12.840 could download that allow you to, you know, learn how 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:16.120 to identify plants in your area. And we surprise the 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:18.719 number of plants in your area that are you know, 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:24.160 useful for tease or for salads or for whatever purposes 0:49:24.960 --> 0:49:29.160 that can be used as replacements. I'm not sure if 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:33.520 they could replace coffee, but they could be beneficial, um, 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:42.919 in recognizing how we have to live with our local ecosystems. Basically, yeah, 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:45.160 and a big you know, when you talk about living 0:49:45.280 --> 0:49:48.040 learning how to live with our ecosystem stuff like planting 0:49:48.200 --> 0:49:51.759 um forest gardens and the like or food forest I 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:54.640 think is the term. UM. I think something that has 0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:58.640 to be discussed is the matter of indigenous sovereignty, especially 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:02.200 when we're talking about you know, it's not just you know, 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:05.239 North America, a lot of chunks of the globe indigenous 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:08.920 people had spent you know, in some cases thousands of 0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:17.080 generations setting forests up in order to sustainably produce food. Um. 0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:21.319 And when when colonialism arrived, that was often just seen 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.240 as like, oh, this is this is these are wild 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:26.000 places for us to for us to extract or tear 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:29.600 down and replace with monoc cultures, you know, single crops. Um. 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:35.040 And so a big part of actually building back that capacity, 0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:37.360 the capacity of us to to survive off of the 0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:41.440 food that can sustainably grow where we live is is 0:50:42.040 --> 0:50:45.399 looking back to those indigenous methods and and also um, 0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:49.319 you know, giving back land in a lot of cases, um. 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:52.960 And yeah, that's something you talk about in your videos 0:50:53.000 --> 0:50:55.880 that I think is really important to um to to 0:50:56.160 --> 0:51:00.080 to to explain to people. Yeah, I mean there's there 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:05.040 really is no way to separate the violance and oppressive 0:51:05.200 --> 0:51:11.000 institution of clunealism with the equosido Nietzsche of modern states. 0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:15.840 You know, those two are deeply intertwined, deeply married together. 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:21.200 And so you can't fight climate change without addressing the 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:26.960 issue of severeignty of indigenous sergnity and land back. Yeah. 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:30.000 It's um, it's really interesting. I've been I've been up 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:33.120 hunting on mountain Hood with a friend who is who 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:36.320 went to school for like forestry management. And as we 0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:38.320 were driving way to drive through a chunk of the 0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:41.439 reservation in order to get to the BLM land where 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:44.360 we're able to hunt, and he pointed it out, and 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:47.880 once he did, it was immediately obvious just how different 0:51:48.120 --> 0:51:51.880 the land under indigenous control looked from the land, you know, 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:54.640 just feed away that was being managed by the federal 0:51:54.760 --> 0:51:57.440 government in terms of like how much better the forest 0:51:57.480 --> 0:52:00.320 management was, how much how much smarter it was it 0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:03.800 was managed in order to reduce the chances of like 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:06.440 a ladder fire that that actually kills you know, the 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:09.239 trees and whatnot. There's this whole thing blowing up on 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:12.880 Twitter right now where you've got a chunk of Marxists 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:17.920 tour are trying to frame land back as uh, just 0:52:18.080 --> 0:52:21.040 like shifting ownership of resources, which I think is really 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:26.239 missing the point. But I find interesting about Twitter is 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:30.080 the exact same discourses are repeated over and over and 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:34.400 over again. So I remember this exact conversation happening around 0:52:34.440 --> 0:52:38.560 this time last year, around April last year, um earlier 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:41.359 this year as well. It's just the same discourses get 0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:44.000 recycled over and over again, and it's reach a point 0:52:44.040 --> 0:52:47.960 for me I realized that these people don't want to 0:52:48.120 --> 0:52:50.800 learn about land back or what it really means because 0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:55.960 they are invested in the structure as it exists and 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:59.960 they don't want to have to interrogate that. So, Yeah, 0:53:01.200 --> 0:53:04.879 this will out to be an interesting thing of knowing. Yeah, 0:53:05.160 --> 0:53:10.040 and it's UM, it's it's it's frustrating. UM. I guess 0:53:10.120 --> 0:53:14.040 that that acts as like a general uh description of 0:53:14.400 --> 0:53:19.759 Twitter discourse, but certainly does. Yeah. I think it's I 0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:23.239 think it's telling the degree to which people, even on 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:26.200 the left treat it as a fantasy as opposed to 0:53:27.600 --> 0:53:32.960 dogged lye pragmatic um and and proven so like proven 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:36.360 by like like you know, like you can read you 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:39.279 in reports that will that will essentially say land back 0:53:39.320 --> 0:53:41.760 in the space of a five page you know, study 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:45.759 on how indigenous land management functions a great deal better 0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:48.000 than UM than a lot of the stuff that's like 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.360 centralized by the federal government, where we're like, our federal 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:54.279 government is terrible at land management. UM, And it's part 0:53:54.360 --> 0:53:56.839 of the it's part of the problem. I think one 0:53:56.880 --> 0:53:59.399 of the things that that excites me about solar punk 0:53:59.560 --> 0:54:02.560 as anesthetic and idea is getting back to this relationship 0:54:02.680 --> 0:54:05.280 with the land as opposed to talking about just preserving 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:10.279 it um as talking about managing it. Because because none 0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:12.320 of our none of the land that people live on 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:15.920 is like wild in the sense that people mean it 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:19.680 as it's been cultivated. And that's that's the thing, right. 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:25.399 The whole philosophy of you know, um land preservation as 0:54:25.719 --> 0:54:29.040 was taken up by the US government with the whole 0:54:29.280 --> 0:54:32.239 um you know, you can stop forest fires kind of 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:35.520 thing ended up leading to more forest fires downline, because 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:39.040 they we have a rule in the ecosystem not just 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:41.680 there to stand back from a far and to observe it. 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:45.800 So we don't do our part to manage the underbrush 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:48.880 and whatnots and clear to we and exercise you know, 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:51.640 controlled fires, but we end up in the situation we're 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:59.440 in today, you know, cultivation not just sterile preservation. Now. 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:02.040 One of the things that you talk about well because 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:04.360 because one of the more frustrating discourses this is not 0:55:04.440 --> 0:55:06.440 just a Twitter thing, this has been going on for years, 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:11.200 is the discourse around GMO crops. And usually I would say, 0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:14.440 like the two most commonly heard sides are GMOs are 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:19.320 bad because you know, monsanto cancer whatever, or GMOs are good. 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:23.400 Um end end thought. Um. And the thing that you 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:27.160 point out, which is I think the accurate take is GMOs. 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:31.000 The preponderance of evidence says that, like, there's nothing inherently 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:34.680 dangerous about genetically modified crops, but the way in which 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:37.879 they're often used in order to create these massive mono 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:41.000 cultures is really toxic. So there's a lot of promise 0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:45.040 um for GMOs in terms of keeping our our existence 0:55:45.120 --> 0:55:48.320 on this planet sustainable. But what's not sustainable is the 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:52.280 kind of industrialized agriculture where you have ten thousand acres 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:56.640 of one thing which just doesn't happen in nature exactly exactly. 0:55:56.640 --> 0:55:59.800 And if you look at how genetic modification and to 0:56:00.040 --> 0:56:03.720 please prior to you know, all advanced funds in genetic 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:07.040 modification technology, um, I'm not so how many people are 0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:11.120 familiar with the dozens upon dozens, if not hundreds of 0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:14.680 varieties of just corn that were present in the Americas 0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:18.560 prior to colonization. A lot of those varieties were wiped 0:56:18.600 --> 0:56:21.480 out or was suppressed in fear of these mono cultures. 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:26.400 But if we're able to culturally diversity of these crops 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:29.440 and really bring some of them back through jestic modification, 0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:32.799 that would really help us with, you know, food resilience 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:38.919 in a world with an increasingly unpredictable climate. Yeah, yeah, 0:56:39.000 --> 0:56:41.320 I think that. I mean, I think you said it perfectly. 0:56:42.360 --> 0:56:44.279 I want to move back to kind of what I 0:56:44.400 --> 0:56:47.920 introduced the episode with, which is talking about the value 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:51.759 of of fiction and myth making in a in a 0:56:51.960 --> 0:56:54.600 very pragmatic sense. I guess I'll start by saying, I 0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:57.040 think one of the clearest signs of the danger that 0:56:57.160 --> 0:57:00.879 we're in and how toxic our society has gotten. Um 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:04.799 And I am speaking from a primarily US centric standpoint here, 0:57:04.840 --> 0:57:06.520 but I don't think it's unique to the United States. 0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:10.400 Is the extent to which trust me um as as 0:57:10.440 --> 0:57:15.600 the saying is when the US sneeze, So anytime there's 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:19.440 some phenomenon happening in the US, there are the coffee cuts. 0:57:21.520 --> 0:57:23.640 And I do think this is pretty global. I mean, 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:27.120 you see it in like South Korean films and all over. 0:57:27.600 --> 0:57:31.320 What you're going to say, yeah, the obsession with apocalypse 0:57:31.440 --> 0:57:33.400 and when we when we go to the future, it's 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:36.600 always a dystopia. Um. There's a degree to which we've 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:42.000 almost forgotten how to imagine utopia, or even not just utopia, 0:57:42.080 --> 0:57:44.440 just a way of living that is an improvement in 0:57:44.520 --> 0:57:46.920 a lot of ways of future that's better. We've forgotten 0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:49.160 to do both utopian fiction and any just kind of 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:53.760 like positive fiction in a lot of ways, because yeah, 0:57:53.800 --> 0:57:56.280 it's understandable because the world is kind of terrible right 0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:57.960 now in a lot of in a lot of ways. 0:57:58.080 --> 0:58:01.120 But there's also that's been utopie being fiction inside other 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:05.560 terrible worlds as well. I think just the modern interconnected 0:58:05.680 --> 0:58:09.640 media sphere has really rewarded this type of like dystopian 0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:12.880 and collapse based apocalypse fiction. Yeah, and I'm sure that's 0:58:12.960 --> 0:58:15.720 that's worth interrogating. Why but it is a problem that 0:58:15.760 --> 0:58:18.160 needs to be solved. Yeah, and it is. And and 0:58:18.320 --> 0:58:20.720 you're I think it's important. It's not entirely based in 0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:22.600 how fucked up things are, because like when the first 0:58:22.640 --> 0:58:25.040 Star Trek came out, we were at like the height 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:28.280 of the Cold War. Things were terrible. There was a 0:58:28.360 --> 0:58:31.240 lot of utopian fiction during World War Two. During World 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:34.120 War two, UM, I will always be impressed by the 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:38.160 fact that Gene Roddenberry saw it as incredibly important both 0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:40.880 to be like, Okay, well in the future, like in 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:42.840 the middle of the civil rights movement, in the future, 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:46.240 we will have overcome like racism, but not just that, 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:48.520 but like I'm gonna I'm gonna stick a Russian on 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:51.120 the bridge too, because nations are going to end as 0:58:51.120 --> 0:58:54.760 a concept and like this stuff won't matter, um, and 0:58:54.840 --> 0:59:00.520 that just that kind of utopian fiction, at least at 0:59:00.600 --> 0:59:03.240 this at the scale of popularity that you know, Star 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:06.320 Trek wasn't its time just isn't present anymore. And I 0:59:06.920 --> 0:59:10.120 that's tremendously worrying to me. And I see a lot 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:14.080 of hope in in Solar Punk for that, um. And 0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:16.520 I guess for starters, I'm interested in in your thoughts 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:19.320 on this, and you're interested in Andrew, what you think 0:59:19.400 --> 0:59:24.640 is like the pragmatic value of of of positive a 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:30.200 fiction that that that imagines a better world. Yes, so 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:37.560 I've done probably I think I've done like two videos 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:41.280 on Sola Punk soufar Um, two major videos on Sula Punk, 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:45.360 as well as a smaller video two other smaller videos. Um. 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:48.760 And what I've seen in the comments and in the 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:53.000 general social media reaction again and again is sol the 0:59:53.040 --> 0:59:55.680 Punk saved my life. You know, Sola Punk has given 0:59:55.720 --> 0:59:58.320 me hoop. You know, I was slipping into the spare, 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:02.440 but this video really give me a jump start to 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:05.120 try something new and to start a fresh and to 1:00:06.200 --> 1:00:11.000 pursue action as opposed to justest lying down and taking 1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:17.000 whatever comes next, and that that is it for me. 1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:22.040 You know, I think the fact that sulapunk offers like 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:26.840 an energizing vision. It's not just a vision, it's an 1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:31.600 energizing vision because in every step with the way, it 1:00:31.760 --> 1:00:34.280 shows what you can do. You know, when you show 1:00:34.360 --> 1:00:37.800 when you look at sula punk art or um, you 1:00:37.880 --> 1:00:43.160 look at the small but growing genre of sulapunk literary media, 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:47.080 or you know, you look at but there's don't have 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:50.680 many silopunk video games right now, but hopefully there will 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:53.040 be in the future. When you look at the various 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:57.160 forms of silopunk media that are coming out and people's 1:00:57.240 --> 1:01:01.800 responses to them, you see that it's not like as 1:01:01.880 --> 1:01:05.400 all mentioning like Star Trek, where it's all this far 1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:09.200 out technology that we can only aspire to for now. 1:01:09.680 --> 1:01:11.920 You know, sol the punk is something that you can 1:01:12.000 --> 1:01:16.800 literally put in your backyard or your balcony or your home, 1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:20.080 or your school or your community. You know, you could 1:01:20.120 --> 1:01:22.320 put these things in place like from now, you know, 1:01:22.440 --> 1:01:25.840 and you can incorporate it into your politics as you know, 1:01:26.040 --> 1:01:27.960 as they are, and they could also help to push 1:01:28.040 --> 1:01:31.400 your politics forward, you know, because through solar punk, we 1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:35.320 can open up discussions about Okay, so how do we 1:01:35.560 --> 1:01:41.120 ensure that people live comfortably within the parameters of you know, 1:01:41.880 --> 1:01:45.080 the Earth's carrying capacity? You know, you open up a 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:51.880 discussions about indigenous sovereignty, you discussions about, um, the relationship 1:01:52.000 --> 1:01:56.000 between the google North and the global South, and responsibility 1:01:56.440 --> 1:02:00.440 with regard to our response to climate change. Well, you 1:02:00.520 --> 1:02:03.440 open up a lot of different discussions through the realm 1:02:03.520 --> 1:02:08.439 of sulla punk. It energizes people, as I said, and yeah, 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:13.600 I think that is its progmatic purpose. It doesn't stand alone, 1:02:13.680 --> 1:02:21.400 of course, but it is a driving force. Yeah. Would 1:02:21.440 --> 1:02:24.400 you kind of give out a list of if people 1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:26.600 are you know, if this is someone's first introduction to 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.920 the concept of solar punk, what is some reading you 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:32.160 want to draw people towards. What are some fiction like 1:02:32.240 --> 1:02:35.240 I know you mentioned The Dispossessed by Laguin, right, um, 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:39.720 which often gets cited. Um. Yeah, I'm interested in kind 1:02:39.720 --> 1:02:42.080 of other other recommendations you might have for our listeners. 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:46.600 Are that right? So? Um, I'm still getting into the 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:50.680 genre myself. So I don't have too many UM recommendations. 1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:55.480 There are some UM decent short story collections UM like 1:02:55.760 --> 1:03:00.120 sun Vaults by a couple of different authors. They as 1:03:00.160 --> 1:03:06.160 well so multi species Cities, so the punk urban futures UM. 1:03:06.320 --> 1:03:10.479 And the one I read most recently was Ecotopia, which 1:03:11.680 --> 1:03:14.800 is quite as much older than all the others. It's 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:20.160 actually a book that was published in the UM and 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:24.760 not all aspects of its politics things I agree with, 1:03:25.000 --> 1:03:30.400 but I think for a first UM it was one 1:03:30.440 --> 1:03:32.320 of the really the first of its kind in that 1:03:32.440 --> 1:03:38.320 sort of eco utopian genre that really laid out what 1:03:38.520 --> 1:03:41.560 the society would look like. UM. The book is structured 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:45.440 in a series of novel entries and notebook reports by 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:48.960 a journalist from the United States who has gone to 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:52.520 this country called Ecotopia, which is sort of where the 1:03:52.680 --> 1:03:59.480 Pacific Northwest States are, and he's basically breaking down he's 1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:01.960 going to different parts of the country and breaking down 1:04:02.760 --> 1:04:06.680 how they have lived and how they have decided structure 1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:12.960 their lives. UM. And even though not every aspect of 1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:15.880 it is one that I would want to see implemented, 1:04:16.480 --> 1:04:22.760 I still think that it really sparks the imagination, really 1:04:22.840 --> 1:04:26.400 gets you thinking, well, maybe I wouldn't do it this week, 1:04:26.480 --> 1:04:29.760 but how else could this be done? And I think 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:34.440 the capacity for sulpunk stories suggest generate that thought and 1:04:34.560 --> 1:04:39.000 generate one's imagination is very useful in a world where 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:41.960 we don't really get to use our imagination as much, 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:49.880 not really since childhood, you know. And um, yeah, I 1:04:51.960 --> 1:04:55.520 I think it's often understated the degree to which using 1:04:55.600 --> 1:05:02.600 your imagination is vitally necessary part of actual a radical politics. Um. 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:05.120 And I think there's a lot of people who consider 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:07.880 themselves radicals, you know, some of these some of these 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:12.040 not to you know, slam every Marxist Leninist on the planet, 1:05:12.080 --> 1:05:13.640 but certainly some of the ones who were coming up 1:05:13.640 --> 1:05:16.400 with these bad faith criticisms of land back. It's like, 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:19.560 you're not a radical, You're a conservative who wants to 1:05:19.640 --> 1:05:22.600 go back to a different kind of problematic thing. Um. 1:05:23.200 --> 1:05:25.480 It is more the fact that the Soviet Union poisoned 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:28.280 like the largest body of water in Europe. You know, 1:05:28.400 --> 1:05:31.160 all the different things that the Soviet Union did that 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:35.200 were horrible for the environment and extractive. And it's interesting that, 1:05:35.360 --> 1:05:40.840 you know, these people who call themselves radicals, but the 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:47.200 very foost um encounter with a radical idea, their fuost 1:05:47.240 --> 1:05:50.080 instinct is to shut down. The whost instinct is to 1:05:50.200 --> 1:05:56.440 just pushed back against it, whereas not to my own 1:05:56.480 --> 1:05:58.800 corn or anything. But you know, when I see an 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:04.360 idea that I haven't encountered before that may seem strange 1:06:04.440 --> 1:06:08.640 to me, that challenges my precontinutions, my first reaction is 1:06:08.720 --> 1:06:14.120 not to shout about how this goes against everything then 1:06:14.200 --> 1:06:18.400 and said, you know, my first reaction is to investigated 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:22.760 and to open space for it in my mind, to really, 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:27.400 you know, tune it around and imagine what it might 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:29.560 look like and how it might fit with what I 1:06:29.640 --> 1:06:34.480 have learned about before. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I 1:06:34.560 --> 1:06:39.680 think that's that's that's great advice for radical politics. It's 1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:44.880 also just good life advice, Yeah, especially for engaging with 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:48.320 ideas that you are less keen on at the moment 1:06:48.480 --> 1:06:51.960 or or or just unaware of. H I mean, my 1:06:52.040 --> 1:06:54.680 whole thing is if I have like a strong gut 1:06:54.760 --> 1:06:59.440 reaction to something, it might be because it may be 1:06:59.640 --> 1:07:04.640 hitting a pot of me that might be benefiting from 1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:09.360 that system, you know. I mean, I don't benefit from 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:11.560 the system in a lot of respects, you know, as 1:07:11.800 --> 1:07:16.200 a black guy from the Caribbean, but as a man 1:07:16.480 --> 1:07:19.080 as in as a c SIS headman, you know, I 1:07:19.200 --> 1:07:22.600 do have privileges that I must be aware of, and 1:07:23.880 --> 1:07:26.760 I can't just like be so quick to shut down 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:31.880 you know, something that might even a bit uncomfortable. You know, yeah, 1:07:32.280 --> 1:07:35.400 I think that's such a valuable thing to keep in mind, 1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:39.000 especially as a a more or less SIS white guy 1:07:39.160 --> 1:07:41.320 like a you know, a significant number of people listening 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:44.680 are if you're uncomfortable by a new idea? Is it? 1:07:45.320 --> 1:07:47.440 Is it because the idea is bad? Or is because 1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:49.760 it strikes at an area in which you may not 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:53.360 even have, like thought about being privileged, Like I'm I'm 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:55.960 uncomfortable I have even though there's no I have no 1:07:56.040 --> 1:07:59.880 intellectual argument against it, with the idea of of INDI 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:02.680 our use of cars as they exist, because I love 1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:05.760 I love to drive. But that's also heavily rooted in 1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:10.960 in in tremendous privilege on my behalf, um a culture, 1:08:11.080 --> 1:08:15.240 and so yeah, and um, you know, we we we 1:08:15.400 --> 1:08:17.200 we did talk about that a bit and the opening 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.080 episodes of season two, the idea that like a more 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:22.120 you know, when we we kind of had our little 1:08:22.200 --> 1:08:24.240 utopian ending, the idea that like, well, maybe you'd have 1:08:24.439 --> 1:08:27.559 a car that's communally owned and used for certain tasks. 1:08:27.680 --> 1:08:30.799 But you know, the idea of of of car culture 1:08:30.880 --> 1:08:34.400 as the center of a city is um is death. 1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:38.000 It's just death. When we talked about getting past cars, 1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:40.120 is not to say that like people will never use 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:44.200 vehicles that move again, Like obviously we will. They're necessary 1:08:44.280 --> 1:08:46.360 for something and all going back to horse drawn buggies. 1:08:47.880 --> 1:08:49.799 I think one of the last things on like solar 1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:52.040 punk and kind of tying into the whole kind of 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:54.360 nature of the shows, I really liked enter your point 1:08:54.479 --> 1:08:57.200 on like how solar punk is like an energizing force 1:08:57.640 --> 1:09:00.439 and I feel like we have very few of those 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:03.599 on the left and especially on the anarchist left. Um, 1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:06.559 Like i've i've, i've, i've, I've had my decent stint 1:09:06.640 --> 1:09:12.759 of like anarcho nihilism. And the problem, like the problem 1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:16.040 with that is like it's very easy, Like anarcho nihilism 1:09:16.120 --> 1:09:20.479 is one of the easiest ideologies to grasp onto because 1:09:20.600 --> 1:09:24.280 it solidifies all of your bad feelings. Um. But it 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:27.160 also it's most the people who I know who are 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:29.960 like real into anarch nihilism, they're generally not very happy 1:09:30.040 --> 1:09:32.920 people because it's kind of it's kind of miserable all 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:36.880 the time. Um, and sure they like scoff at like 1:09:37.240 --> 1:09:42.040 solar punk is like some like greenwashed yogurt commercial, like 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:46.599 you know, like utopian thing, but also like it's actually 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:48.760 lots of solar punk that we've talked about. It's like 1:09:48.760 --> 1:09:52.000 actually about doing specific things, Like it's actually like actually 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:54.880 going to do something rather than just being an insurrecto 1:09:55.000 --> 1:09:59.320 kid um or just just you know, talking about nihilist 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:01.560 znes and books on Twitter for all day. And I 1:10:01.640 --> 1:10:03.559 think one of one of your one of my favorite 1:10:03.640 --> 1:10:06.160 videos of yours is your video on the psychology of 1:10:06.240 --> 1:10:10.479 collapse UM, because I think that's one of my favorites 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:13.200 as well. It's it's, it's, it's it's it's really just 1:10:13.320 --> 1:10:17.120 like a masterpiece. And how deep you get into every 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:20.439 different type of collapse thinking. It's not just on the rights, 1:10:20.479 --> 1:10:22.360 not not not not on the left, it's not just 1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.720 whether you're you know more you know, anarchist, more authoritarian, 1:10:25.760 --> 1:10:28.400 it's like you get into every specific type of thinking 1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:31.080 that plays into this idea around collapse. And I think 1:10:31.240 --> 1:10:35.000 if I recommend everyone check out your channel, especially watching 1:10:35.000 --> 1:10:38.000 your solar punk videos, but specifically on the topic of 1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:39.920 collapse you know, part of our show we were trying 1:10:39.960 --> 1:10:42.320 to kind of be a little bit like anti collapse UM. 1:10:42.520 --> 1:10:45.519 And I think your your video really shows the depth 1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:48.759 of that topic, UM and how to approach this, because 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:51.160 collapse is a feeling, like it's a feeling we all have, 1:10:51.680 --> 1:10:53.599 and it needs to be interrogated. And I think your 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:57.280 video is just a magnificent job interrogating that feeling, right, 1:10:57.520 --> 1:11:01.040 thank you. I can't over emphasize how important that is, 1:11:01.360 --> 1:11:04.920 because I I one of the major failings. There were 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:08.280 a number of victories for kind of anarchist thought, particularly 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:11.479 within the United States during the the insurrection last year, 1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:16.559 one of its tremendous defeats is that it has become 1:11:17.280 --> 1:11:21.000 characterized in a huge number of people's eyes as breaking 1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:26.000 windows and and starting fires um. And yeah, that's a 1:11:26.120 --> 1:11:28.920 lot of that is because the media is trash, um, 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:31.840 and it's trash it reporting on on all of this stuff. 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:34.360 But some of it is because a lot of people 1:11:34.439 --> 1:11:40.759 have let that be their primary praxis UM. And that again, 1:11:40.840 --> 1:11:43.559 I don't care about people breaking windows, I don't care 1:11:43.560 --> 1:11:47.240 about people lighting dumpster fires. But if that's what you're 1:11:47.280 --> 1:11:53.000 presenting to the world as your practice, that doesn't appeal 1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:57.920 to people, and you have to um, because yeah, anarchism 1:11:58.080 --> 1:12:01.040 is not just destructive, it is also construct Yeah, the 1:12:01.120 --> 1:12:03.439 constructive part we need to be boosting more than And 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:06.559 there were some, you know, from the context of Portland's, 1:12:06.560 --> 1:12:09.280 some really strong examples of that last year. The incredible 1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:12.640 amount of mutual aid that was was put together afraid 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:15.840 of time. Yeah, during the fire relief was was incredible. UM. 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:19.280 And the Red House, the the eviction defense occupation was 1:12:19.360 --> 1:12:23.200 a really good repost to you know, the disaster that 1:12:23.400 --> 1:12:26.160 was the Chaz in Seattle. That this was like, this 1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:29.839 was an area that was temporarily autonomous from the police, 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:32.720 that did not collapse into violence, that succeeded in its goal, 1:12:32.800 --> 1:12:35.679 and that cleaned up after itself and presented an option 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:37.559 for people like this is how it can look when 1:12:37.720 --> 1:12:39.800 we try to evict people. You know, this is what 1:12:39.920 --> 1:12:43.120 can happen. UM. So I think they're I don't want 1:12:43.160 --> 1:12:45.680 to like be too negative, but I think that a 1:12:45.760 --> 1:12:49.479 lot of folks because of for a variety of reasons, 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:52.720 you know, the there's been so much focus on kind 1:12:52.720 --> 1:12:56.400 of the insurrection, not even that because I think that 1:12:57.040 --> 1:13:01.720 building can be insurrectionist. I think that can be can 1:13:01.760 --> 1:13:06.320 be profoundly insurrectionists. It's like, destruction has an immediate result 1:13:06.360 --> 1:13:08.799 of making you feel better, right, it has an immediate 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:12.080 of endorphins and hormones. It makes you happy when you 1:13:12.200 --> 1:13:14.599 do it. It's it's it is, it is an exhilarating act, 1:13:14.640 --> 1:13:18.640 and you feel like you're accomplishing something. What's harder is 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:21.519 to like have that same feeling by doing seed bombing, right, 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:24.439 but by actually like improving your community slowly through these 1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:27.360 types of like so the park ideas, they don't have 1:13:27.439 --> 1:13:30.000 the same immediate emotional reactions. So a lot of people 1:13:30.160 --> 1:13:32.240 like when they you know, think about what insurrection is, 1:13:32.520 --> 1:13:35.240 they can a default to this destructive tendency, which destruction 1:13:35.320 --> 1:13:38.439 has its time and place. Um, but if that's your 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:42.880 only practice, we're not gonna improve the world at all, 1:13:43.000 --> 1:13:46.200 Like right, that's that's not going to do anything helping 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:49.040 through you know, giving out food, helping through giving out 1:13:49.160 --> 1:13:52.760 socks and clothes, helping through all of these solar punk ways. 1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:55.799 These are things that actually like are going to improve 1:13:55.880 --> 1:13:58.280 things on a tangible level, and they and they're gonna 1:13:58.360 --> 1:14:00.559 make more people be like, oh hey, what what are 1:14:00.600 --> 1:14:03.439 these anarchists doing? That's actually interesting versus Oh, what are 1:14:03.479 --> 1:14:06.920 these anarchists are doing? This is stupid? Ignore everything they say. Yeah, 1:14:07.320 --> 1:14:09.439 people have to remember as well that, Um, you know, 1:14:09.560 --> 1:14:12.320 there's seeds a sort of funk in Kirp Hootkins writ 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:15.120 things you know, from the conquest of bread to mutual aid, 1:14:15.760 --> 1:14:19.080 and those are sort of things that should be just 1:14:19.200 --> 1:14:25.679 as emphasized as the destructive, exhilerating aspects of anarchism. Yeah. 1:14:26.120 --> 1:14:28.320 There's a line in a Frank Turner song, a couple 1:14:28.360 --> 1:14:30.479 of lines actually in a song called nineteen thirty three 1:14:30.560 --> 1:14:31.760 that I go back to a lot, But one of 1:14:31.800 --> 1:14:33.720 them is you can't fix the world of all you 1:14:33.880 --> 1:14:36.560 have is a hammer. And that's I guess what I 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:42.320 see is like the primary practical benefit of solar punk, 1:14:42.800 --> 1:14:44.880 just as an aesthetic as a piece of fiction, is 1:14:45.960 --> 1:14:52.040 getting people to expand their toolbox. Yeah, get yourself a trowel, 1:14:52.400 --> 1:14:56.880 you know, some some screwdrivas, you know. Yeah, keep the hammer, 1:14:56.960 --> 1:15:01.040 you need that sometimes too, But what's grab some other tools? 1:15:01.160 --> 1:15:06.639 Expand the toolbox thing isn't really great metaphor type of thing. Yeah, yeah, Um, 1:15:07.560 --> 1:15:09.280 I think that's most of what we're going to get 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:12.479 into today. Um, there's a couple of pieces of things 1:15:12.560 --> 1:15:14.240 I would want to read. One of them Isn't. This 1:15:14.400 --> 1:15:17.800 isn't directly I think it predates the solar punk, but 1:15:17.920 --> 1:15:21.600 it it I think feeds into some of what I 1:15:21.720 --> 1:15:24.080 think it emotionally feeds into a lot of we're talking 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:26.600 about here. It's an essay from David Graber called The 1:15:26.640 --> 1:15:30.479 Shock of Victory UM, which I think is really useful 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:35.639 to me. Yeah. Um, And I would also recommend um. 1:15:36.320 --> 1:15:39.880 Corey doctor O's new fiction novel walk Away Um, which 1:15:39.960 --> 1:15:44.120 I think is a really wonderful piece, was a wonderful, 1:15:44.240 --> 1:15:47.439 wonderful book. I should have included my recommendations. It was 1:15:47.479 --> 1:15:51.000 really great. Yeah. I read it recently and it made 1:15:51.080 --> 1:15:53.800 me Um. It made me feel the way like as 1:15:53.840 --> 1:15:56.320 a fiction writer that a good piece of fiction should, 1:15:56.400 --> 1:16:00.800 which is like I felt bad, Uh, felt bad about 1:16:00.960 --> 1:16:03.160 some of the things that I had written. Because there's 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:06.840 there's there's such there's so much more courage because I 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:09.360 wrote a piece of fiction that has some solar punk elements, 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:12.720 has some quasi utopian elements in the dystopia, but I 1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:15.240 didn't have the courage to kind of go as far 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:19.120 as as Corey did and to imagine a kind of 1:16:19.960 --> 1:16:22.760 passivism that he he has the courage to kind of 1:16:22.880 --> 1:16:25.560 put into the into the hands of his his protagonists. 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:28.599 Like I, I I really respect that about the book. 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:32.400 I mean, the book goes in something very interesting eye 1:16:32.439 --> 1:16:37.200 directions as well, but it's it's got some great ship um. 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:40.840 And I always enjoy Corey's Corey's leve of burning man 1:16:41.240 --> 1:16:43.720 um of what it could be as kind of what 1:16:43.920 --> 1:16:47.719 the what what some of it's turned into. But yeah, um, Andrew, 1:16:47.760 --> 1:16:49.439 is there anything else you wanted to get into before 1:16:49.520 --> 1:16:52.400 we we close this out? I just want to remind 1:16:52.439 --> 1:16:56.680 people to check on your friends. M you know, um, 1:16:58.200 --> 1:17:04.800 we're all going through various stages of collapse. As I 1:17:04.920 --> 1:17:07.880 outlined in my video. You know, we shift between them 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:12.160 from time to time, so try not to go through 1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:16.680 it alone. You know, there's no there's no eye in 1:17:16.720 --> 1:17:23.120 Sula Punk. Yeah yeah, um check out st Andrew on 1:17:23.200 --> 1:17:26.000 YouTube at st andrews Um. Um, Andrew, is there any 1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:28.439 anything else you wanted to kind of plug from your 1:17:28.479 --> 1:17:33.439 own your own personal work. Yeah? So, um, other than 1:17:33.560 --> 1:17:38.280 the you know, the Sula Punk videos and the collapse videos, 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:41.360 I want to remind sorry, rather I want to shout 1:17:41.400 --> 1:17:46.519 out my video on black anarchism. I think that is 1:17:46.640 --> 1:17:53.120 a pretty essential look into, uh the history of black 1:17:53.160 --> 1:17:56.240 anarchism in the United States and in the world. I 1:17:56.280 --> 1:18:00.000 also want to recommend um my video on the psychology 1:18:00.000 --> 1:18:02.960 the authoritarianism. I know a lot of people have family 1:18:03.000 --> 1:18:06.200 members who are conservative or on the right, it will 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:09.760 may be leaning fascist, and I think that can be 1:18:09.840 --> 1:18:14.280 helpful for you know, helping them to or rather helping 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:19.240 you to understand where they mindset sade m hm. And also, 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:23.519 you know, check out my video on puma let sing. 1:18:24.040 --> 1:18:25.800 I think that was a pretty fun one as well. 1:18:26.200 --> 1:18:28.920 It breaks down a lot of it break breaks down 1:18:29.000 --> 1:18:33.439 how you can go about implementing food forests or puma 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:39.120 culture gardens wherever you find yourself. Awesome, Um, thank you 1:18:39.240 --> 1:18:41.600 very much for being on the show. Andrew, thank you 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:44.320 all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow or if this 1:18:44.400 --> 1:18:46.599 comes out Friday, we'll be back, you know, another day. 1:18:46.640 --> 1:18:48.320 We'll be back at some point. You know, you know 1:18:48.400 --> 1:19:08.679 how this works. You understand podcasts ahcast. All right, Chris, 1:19:09.200 --> 1:19:14.160 you go, so welcome, Welcome to it could happen here 1:19:14.280 --> 1:19:16.560 a podcast that I think for the first time is 1:19:16.640 --> 1:19:19.640 just me and Robert. This is this is the very 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:22.280 first time that this is happening. You're you're all here 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:25.800 at a moment of legendary significance and historic importance. So 1:19:27.000 --> 1:19:29.720 try to try to face it with the requisite all 1:19:30.240 --> 1:19:34.000 that's all I ask, yes, And another thing that, man, 1:19:34.080 --> 1:19:36.560 this is a terrible transition. Something else we're facing with 1:19:36.720 --> 1:19:42.680 requisite awe is weird shortages of goods and price increases. 1:19:43.200 --> 1:19:46.400 M So it's fucking rad. I was just at the 1:19:47.040 --> 1:19:51.320 Asian market today, um, and they did not have the 1:19:51.439 --> 1:19:56.240 snack chips that I most prefer now officially a calamity. Um, 1:19:56.640 --> 1:20:00.320 we've entered crisis of historic proportion. Yeah, I think I 1:20:00.360 --> 1:20:02.559 don't think we're going to live through this one. Nope, 1:20:02.600 --> 1:20:04.679 we're doing We can't look at that without the action 1:20:04.720 --> 1:20:08.439 snack chips Like it's the ones that are like they're 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:11.280 like pieces of seaweed, but that have been tempered, fried 1:20:11.320 --> 1:20:17.479 and temper a batter's completely out tragic, absolutely tragifying. I 1:20:17.520 --> 1:20:19.360 think there's a couple of things. I mean, you've got 1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:21.640 a script, so I'll probably just let you do that 1:20:21.880 --> 1:20:24.360 in the not too distant future. But one of the 1:20:24.400 --> 1:20:26.800 things that's frustrating to me, although maybe it shouldn't be, 1:20:26.880 --> 1:20:29.320 because I'm probably partly responsible for this, is that this 1:20:29.439 --> 1:20:32.960 is being um this is often kind of being talked 1:20:33.000 --> 1:20:35.519 about with by people online, is like, oh, it's a 1:20:35.600 --> 1:20:39.680 sign that like society is crumbling. And what they mean 1:20:39.760 --> 1:20:41.519 by that is that like, oh, well, we just don't 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:44.280 have stuff, like we're we're not able to like keep 1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:46.759 up with with demand and like the ability to produce 1:20:46.840 --> 1:20:50.480 these things is crumbling. And it's actually much more complex 1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:52.800 than that and a lot less rooted in a lack 1:20:52.960 --> 1:20:57.040 of specific resources and more decisions made under capitalism about 1:20:57.040 --> 1:20:59.840 how the supply chain would work. And it's I don't know, 1:20:59.880 --> 1:21:01.599 I think it's important because it is you can say 1:21:01.640 --> 1:21:04.519 it still is like a situation where this is an 1:21:04.560 --> 1:21:07.479 example of the system falling apart. But it's not falling 1:21:07.520 --> 1:21:10.880 apart because we don't have the paper to make toilet 1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:14.080 paper with. It's falling apart because decisions were made in 1:21:14.280 --> 1:21:17.559 order to increase the stock prices of companies by reducing 1:21:17.640 --> 1:21:20.360 the amount of products that they kept on hand. And 1:21:20.479 --> 1:21:25.120 that's led to an incredibly fragile system that that did 1:21:25.240 --> 1:21:28.519 nothing well but maximize profits. And I think, well, okay, 1:21:28.560 --> 1:21:30.280 I think there's there's there's a couple of things with 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:32.880 that that we should talk about. Yeah, because there's a 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:36.200 lot of different explanations they're floating around for why is happening, 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:37.479 and I think some of them are good, but I 1:21:37.560 --> 1:21:39.759 think a lot of them are missing part of the story. 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.080 And I think it's important because Okay, so, like like 1:21:43.200 --> 1:21:47.280 my grandma like called me yesterday, like like called our 1:21:47.360 --> 1:21:51.760 family to like talk about the supply chain problem because 1:21:51.920 --> 1:21:56.120 someone had like she'd been like fed a conspiracy theory 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:58.400 that like the shortages were because American dock workers like 1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:01.800 didn't want to open containers from China. Uh yeah, it's 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:04.760 like yeah, like I mean this is not that's not right, 1:22:04.880 --> 1:22:07.679 But it's not like if that had happened, it would 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:11.360 be like, well, okay, that does scan like yeah, and 1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:13.439 I think yeah, and like I think this is this 1:22:13.560 --> 1:22:15.840 is a moment where yeah, you know, okay, think think 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:17.920 things are not working how they're supposed to you. And 1:22:17.960 --> 1:22:20.120 there's a lot of sort of competing stories about it, 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:21.760 one which because on which are bad. And I think 1:22:23.160 --> 1:22:25.840 most of the conventional accounts and whereber it was talking 1:22:25.880 --> 1:22:28.760 about this, uh you know, even the really good ones, 1:22:28.840 --> 1:22:31.639 they start with sort of the eighties Wall Street takeover 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:34.280 of corporate America and the transformation of sort of all 1:22:34.360 --> 1:22:36.840 corporate management into an attempt to like raise short term 1:22:36.920 --> 1:22:40.160 stock prices. And you know, part of this is lead 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:42.920 in production and this is true, and this is sort 1:22:42.960 --> 1:22:46.640 of true, but dismisses about half of the story. And 1:22:46.760 --> 1:22:49.439 and the part of the story that it misses that's 1:22:49.720 --> 1:22:53.720 really important, I think is the sort of it's it's 1:22:53.760 --> 1:22:56.720 the broader like frame in which all of this is 1:22:56.760 --> 1:23:00.920 happening in is essentially the worry of how the working 1:23:01.000 --> 1:23:04.360 class essentially loses the class war in the six season seventies. 1:23:05.240 --> 1:23:07.959 And weirdly, it's also a story about the Cose boomerang. 1:23:09.600 --> 1:23:16.519 Yeah yeah, Dan Long, throw in, throw in, the music 1:23:16.600 --> 1:23:18.600 clip that we've all decided is going to be the 1:23:18.640 --> 1:23:21.280 one we put in whenever someone talks about food. Cose boomerang, 1:23:21.960 --> 1:23:24.320 which is probably just going to be another time machine noise. 1:23:24.400 --> 1:23:32.120 So real quick, the Cose credit to Cody. Um, Okay, 1:23:32.200 --> 1:23:35.439 continue brief refresher on what that is. So basically the 1:23:35.520 --> 1:23:37.519 free cost boomerang is that Okay, if if you if 1:23:37.560 --> 1:23:41.360 if if a government does something like repressive like technology, 1:23:41.360 --> 1:23:44.640 repressive technique or passive technology like in a colony, like 1:23:44.720 --> 1:23:46.439 in a war somewhere. Eventually it will come back and 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:50.360 be used against like the citizens of that country. And yeah, 1:23:50.720 --> 1:23:54.080 a great example would be fingerprinting was invented for the 1:23:54.160 --> 1:23:58.800 British like policing um insurgents in Malaysia, and is now 1:23:59.600 --> 1:24:02.840 has them back to every you know, colonizing nation now 1:24:02.920 --> 1:24:05.439 uses finger printing, which is also deeply flawed as a technology. 1:24:05.520 --> 1:24:07.559 But anyway, yeah, yeah, and you know, and I think 1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:09.439 most people tend to think about this is our armored 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:13.240 personnel carriers. But we will eventually get to this. The 1:24:13.400 --> 1:24:17.439 boomerang technology here is actually shipping containers hell yeah, which 1:24:17.479 --> 1:24:23.519 have done like irreparable damage to the mankind. Alright, alright, 1:24:23.560 --> 1:24:25.240 I'm ready for this. I don't know much about this. 1:24:25.600 --> 1:24:27.439 Hit me, all right, I bear with you with this 1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:30.280 because we're we're we're we're gonna talk about two threads. 1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:32.439 They're going to seem like they have nothing to do 1:24:32.520 --> 1:24:35.040 with supply chains, and then they're all going to tie together. 1:24:35.120 --> 1:24:38.640 It turns out is literally all supply chains. So in 1:24:38.720 --> 1:24:42.479 the cities and seventies you have, you know, in very 1:24:42.760 --> 1:24:45.479 very broad general strokes, you have two kinds of class war. 1:24:46.320 --> 1:24:48.400 The first kind is what I'm sort of very broadly 1:24:48.479 --> 1:24:51.240 calling the war and the factories and this is this 1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:53.879 is an enormous series that sort of strikes outright uprising 1:24:53.960 --> 1:24:56.240 a stretched from sort of Detroit to tur into Tokyo. 1:24:57.160 --> 1:24:59.840 And you know, the most famous of these is the 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:02.840 student sort of worker uprising in May sixty eight in 1:25:03.000 --> 1:25:07.240 France and they you know, they're they're they're close enough 1:25:07.320 --> 1:25:10.000 taking the country that like French President Charles de Gaul 1:25:10.120 --> 1:25:13.880 like flees in a helicopter to in secret, and like 1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:18.080 flees to Germany in secret, and you know, and that 1:25:18.160 --> 1:25:19.720 that that that's like a big event, but it's sort 1:25:19.760 --> 1:25:23.400 of it sort of fades. What doesn't fade is May 1:25:23.479 --> 1:25:26.840 sixty eight in Italy. And you know that it doesn't 1:25:26.880 --> 1:25:30.040 fade there because Italy, Italy has been in the middle 1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:35.400 of a strike wave since two sixty four. It's the 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:39.439 whole sixties that basically just strik waves there and you know, 1:25:39.560 --> 1:25:42.559 they have their own sixty and unlike in France where 1:25:42.600 --> 1:25:47.599 peters out, in Italy you get the just incredibly named hot, 1:25:47.880 --> 1:25:55.320 hot autumn of sixty nine, which is my bet was 1:25:55.360 --> 1:25:58.400 a hot autumn. Yeah, it's it's great. And so basically 1:25:58.400 --> 1:26:01.840 what happens is you get hundreds of thousands of workers 1:26:01.880 --> 1:26:04.439 go on strike, they start seizing control their factories. Um, 1:26:04.520 --> 1:26:06.240 and most of most of this is playing out in 1:26:06.520 --> 1:26:10.400 in the Fiat factories. Yeah, it's a giant car factories 1:26:10.439 --> 1:26:14.240 in Italy's industrial triangle, and you know, I mean they're 1:26:14.240 --> 1:26:16.479 there for like, they're there for a long time. They're 1:26:16.520 --> 1:26:20.720 into like seventy and eventually they lose. But you know, 1:26:21.800 --> 1:26:24.920 Italy is just sort of rocked by conflict and sort 1:26:24.960 --> 1:26:28.160 of class war stuff, and all of this reculminates in 1:26:28.400 --> 1:26:31.760 yet another enormous uprising in en seventies seven, this one 1:26:31.920 --> 1:26:35.519 driven like in large part by people who were basically 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:38.320 just like, funk this, I'm not working in the factory anymore. 1:26:38.360 --> 1:26:40.240 It's awful, which which I think is something that like, 1:26:41.400 --> 1:26:43.800 you know, if if you're looking at the modern political landscape, 1:26:44.200 --> 1:26:46.040 you have a bunch of people who are going like, 1:26:46.280 --> 1:26:48.120 funk this, I'm not going to go like die in 1:26:48.200 --> 1:26:54.080 these factories anymore. And those people all have in a 1:26:54.160 --> 1:27:00.439 lot of cases, safer employing situations than many people today. Yeah. Yeah, 1:27:00.720 --> 1:27:02.400 like it's starting to get worse than which is why 1:27:02.479 --> 1:27:07.280 people are are frustrated but likes yeah, yeah, you know, 1:27:07.320 --> 1:27:10.360 and and this this it's sort of interesting because there 1:27:10.479 --> 1:27:13.200 there's a kind of like Vicky Uster while I've had 1:27:13.240 --> 1:27:15.000 on here. It calls it, it calls it like the 1:27:15.080 --> 1:27:17.120 Monkeys Paul thing, where it's like people in the seventies 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:19.679 and Italy wanted like autonomy and like freedom from work, 1:27:20.360 --> 1:27:22.599 and so what what capitalism gave them was like, oh, 1:27:22.640 --> 1:27:25.040 we'll give you autonomy. We'll just make you all contract workers. 1:27:25.680 --> 1:27:27.200 And now like, yeah, you don't you don't have to 1:27:27.240 --> 1:27:28.880 like wake up every morning and like go to a 1:27:28.960 --> 1:27:30.559 job in the factory and leave it five or whatever. 1:27:30.680 --> 1:27:33.280 But now you just you know, you're you're a contract worker, 1:27:33.320 --> 1:27:35.320 so you just have no stability whatsoever, and that that's 1:27:35.360 --> 1:27:40.240 your autonomy. But you know this, this is this is 1:27:40.360 --> 1:27:43.519 really bad for the Italian ruling class. Like they almost 1:27:43.600 --> 1:27:46.800 lose control of Italy three times in ten years, and 1:27:46.920 --> 1:27:49.800 after not seventy seven, they're just like fuck this and they, 1:27:49.880 --> 1:27:51.680 I mean, they started to start doing mass arrest they 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:54.160 imprison like tens of thousands of people, a torture a 1:27:54.200 --> 1:27:59.160 bunch of people, and you know, but it becomes clear 1:27:59.240 --> 1:28:02.240 that like pure repression is like not going to be 1:28:02.439 --> 1:28:04.519 enough to like just destroy the section of the working 1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:08.560 class movements that you know, God help you thinks that 1:28:08.640 --> 1:28:12.479 you should like run production for themselves, and so they 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:16.280 start looking elsewhere for answers. And the place they find 1:28:16.360 --> 1:28:19.680 these answers, weirdly enough, is in the second set of 1:28:19.760 --> 1:28:22.880 wars that are going on in this period, which are 1:28:23.040 --> 1:28:26.760 the sort of national liberation wars. And you know, these 1:28:26.760 --> 1:28:29.200 are the national liberation wars. Are these these are full scale, 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:32.720 like these aren't sort of class warm metaphors. These are 1:28:33.040 --> 1:28:34.920 you know, this is this is giddy be Saw, this 1:28:35.120 --> 1:28:39.000 is Algeria. And you know, importantly, for for our purposes, 1:28:39.000 --> 1:28:41.960 the US fights two of them, which is Korean Vietnam. 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:48.200 Now Korean Vietnam are strategically really bad places for the 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:52.679 US to fight wars, like they're on the other side 1:28:52.680 --> 1:28:56.960 of the world, which you know, it makes it more 1:28:56.960 --> 1:28:58.880 difficult to do war crimes because you know, if you're 1:28:58.920 --> 1:29:01.360 fire bombing of village, right, you have to be able 1:29:01.400 --> 1:29:04.120 to move fire bombs, jet fighters and like oil and 1:29:04.240 --> 1:29:06.880 rations to the other side of the world. And this 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:10.360 is hard about a lot easier when they can commit 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:14.040 war crimes. And like, I don't know, duloof, yeah, yeah, well, 1:29:14.040 --> 1:29:16.880 like even even like you know, you got to commit 1:29:16.920 --> 1:29:18.680 a war crime in Mexico. It's like, okay, you just 1:29:18.720 --> 1:29:20.200 sign a bunch of people over the border. It would 1:29:20.240 --> 1:29:22.559 be so easy to commit war crimes in Mexico. Yeah, 1:29:22.640 --> 1:29:25.920 and and really really up our war crime quoti. Well, 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:28.200 I would say, we do do a lot of war 1:29:28.280 --> 1:29:32.240 crimes in Mexico. It's just that like they're done based 1:29:32.280 --> 1:29:35.080 on by proxies. That's true. But I mean we've killed like, 1:29:35.439 --> 1:29:37.320 we've killed like a million people there in the last 1:29:37.400 --> 1:29:40.920 like twenty years. And the war on drugs. But yeah, 1:29:40.960 --> 1:29:43.840 you know, so the US, you know, the U s okay, 1:29:43.840 --> 1:29:46.000 So it has this logistics problem, and logistics problem is 1:29:46.000 --> 1:29:48.560 that it can't do war crimes enough, and so it 1:29:48.600 --> 1:29:50.680 comes up with a couple of solutions to them. One 1:29:50.760 --> 1:29:54.679 of them is essentially they rebuild the whole Japanese economy 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:57.040 in order to just use Japan's industrial base to fight 1:29:57.080 --> 1:29:59.599 the war in Korea. And then after the war in Korea, 1:29:59.720 --> 1:30:02.400 and they rebuild the South Korean economy in order to 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:05.919 you know, fight the war in Vietnam. And this works, 1:30:06.479 --> 1:30:09.679 but it doesn't solve the problem that you know, okay, 1:30:09.720 --> 1:30:11.880 even even even if you're you know, you're you have 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:14.599 of an industrial based in Japan, right, you still need 1:30:14.640 --> 1:30:18.759 to be able to efficiently move things by sea to Korea, 1:30:20.560 --> 1:30:22.160 and you know, you still need to still supplies you 1:30:22.200 --> 1:30:25.040 need to move from the US, And so the solution 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:31.080 for this is containery shipping and continerary shipping. This is 1:30:31.160 --> 1:30:35.840 the pivot point upon which the entire history of the 1:30:35.920 --> 1:30:39.559 twentieth century and everything that's happening in the twenty one 1:30:39.640 --> 1:30:42.760 century hinges on like this, this is the pivot And 1:30:43.360 --> 1:30:44.960 you know, like I'm not even this isn't even really 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:48.759 an exaggeration, because it turns out that like the ability 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:51.280 to have uniform boxes that you can stack on top 1:30:51.320 --> 1:30:53.240 of each other like legos and put on a ship 1:30:53.920 --> 1:30:59.120 is like like it's like comparable to the nuclear bomb 1:30:59.840 --> 1:31:03.280 in terms of how important it is, which is really 1:31:03.320 --> 1:31:05.080 really used to the only way to get things from 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:07.920 A to B was a big wooden ship filled with 1:31:08.520 --> 1:31:12.160 dubloons like pilet bags and stuff. Yeah, yeah, I know, 1:31:12.240 --> 1:31:15.479 how did we, like global commerce work before shipping containers? 1:31:15.520 --> 1:31:18.360 What did we what did we literally like you just 1:31:18.479 --> 1:31:21.400 like sometimes sometimes you would just like physically people would 1:31:21.400 --> 1:31:23.760 just pick up the items and put them on the ship, 1:31:24.840 --> 1:31:27.000 or they would like sometimes they put them in boxes 1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:29.439 or like you would like strap them to like the 1:31:29.520 --> 1:31:34.000 top of the ship. And so with the trains a 1:31:34.040 --> 1:31:37.639 lot they would just like strap like machinery like onto 1:31:37.680 --> 1:31:41.360 a train car. And this was like not, this is 1:31:41.439 --> 1:31:45.200 like really inefficient. It's really so yeah, and so the 1:31:45.320 --> 1:31:47.799 US in order to like do war crimes in Korea, 1:31:48.160 --> 1:31:50.120 and then you know, it's just like, oh, hey, what 1:31:50.200 --> 1:31:54.040 if we just make metal boxes and then they get 1:31:54.080 --> 1:31:56.160 they progressively get better and better at it because you know, 1:31:56.200 --> 1:31:58.439 they have to go do more war crimes in in Vietnam. 1:31:59.120 --> 1:32:02.519 And but by the time you're getting to the end, Yeah, yeah, 1:32:02.600 --> 1:32:04.360 you know, look lots of war crimes that do you need? 1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:06.800 You need good logistics networks to do all of these 1:32:06.840 --> 1:32:09.439 war crimes. I mean, it makes sense that that's where 1:32:09.439 --> 1:32:11.840 we got shipping containers, but I didn't realize. I had 1:32:12.000 --> 1:32:14.439 just assumed it would have come out of the shipping 1:32:14.479 --> 1:32:17.360 industry as opposed to like we got to get more 1:32:17.400 --> 1:32:20.000 missiles over to these places. Yeah, well, this is the 1:32:20.080 --> 1:32:23.240 interesting thing. We'll get to this in a bit. But basically, 1:32:23.360 --> 1:32:28.599 like a lot of the logistics revolution stuff either comes 1:32:28.640 --> 1:32:31.000 out of the military or is developed by X fascists 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:34.200 and and and a lot of the reason for this 1:32:34.320 --> 1:32:35.519 is Okay, I mean this is you know, this is 1:32:35.560 --> 1:32:38.640 the seventies. They're still are in d happening like this 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:42.280 still actual research and developments, but the military is doing 1:32:42.960 --> 1:32:46.840 just an enormous amount of the research development for all 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:50.760 of global capitalism. And you know, and and and the 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:54.800 other thing, Yes, what's happening here? And you know this 1:32:54.960 --> 1:32:58.280 this is the sort of boomerang thing is that you know, 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:00.360 so the container are shipping logistics, stuff that had been 1:33:00.479 --> 1:33:04.360 used to just like obliterate the global South suddenly starts 1:33:04.360 --> 1:33:07.000 spreading into capital like you know, just into like broader 1:33:07.040 --> 1:33:08.640 shipping because people look at this and they're like, oh, 1:33:08.720 --> 1:33:11.120 this is efficient. And then the contracting companies the US 1:33:11.240 --> 1:33:14.479 is using. This turns into the solution to both sort 1:33:14.520 --> 1:33:16.040 of the war and the factories are talking about in 1:33:16.479 --> 1:33:19.160 in in Europe and the US and in Japan itself, 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.559 and then also to the solution of the national liberation 1:33:22.600 --> 1:33:26.120 movements and sort of like communism in East Asia because 1:33:26.320 --> 1:33:28.960 you know, okay, so you have this question, right, the US, 1:33:29.880 --> 1:33:32.360 like we kind of fight to a draw in Korea, 1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:36.280 like we kill a norm's number of people, but the 1:33:36.360 --> 1:33:41.360 North Korea. Yeah, and like yeah, but we don't really win, right, 1:33:41.479 --> 1:33:43.880 like we we we can't actually defeat the Chinese army 1:33:45.520 --> 1:33:47.719 or yeah, and and you know, and we lose Vietnam, 1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:49.760 and so the question is, okay, so like how how 1:33:49.840 --> 1:33:52.280 are we going to stop communism? And the answer, it 1:33:52.360 --> 1:33:54.880 turns out, is to just integrate integrate the communist countries 1:33:54.920 --> 1:33:57.560 into the capitalist supply chain. And I mean there's a 1:33:57.600 --> 1:33:59.879 lot of examples of this, like market Thatcher, for example, 1:34:00.120 --> 1:34:04.720 is like very good buddies with Nikolai chessqu Ah. That's nice. 1:34:04.840 --> 1:34:07.920 It's they could be friends despite their the fact that 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:12.280 they well I guess they weren't really that different as people, No, 1:34:12.520 --> 1:34:16.639 not really, Like basically the difference is that ky lost 1:34:16.760 --> 1:34:21.560 and thus got like murdered on state television on a 1:34:21.640 --> 1:34:27.840 state funeral treatment. That's my official stance. They should have 1:34:29.560 --> 1:34:32.519 for stuff we will talk about in a bit. But yes, 1:34:32.680 --> 1:34:35.439 but you know, the archetypal example of this is actually China. 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:38.200 And you know, there's a lot of various sort of 1:34:38.240 --> 1:34:42.519 skilled diplomatic work by Kissinger and also the US like 1:34:42.760 --> 1:34:46.679 throughout the seventies, just like they're just like sending entire 1:34:46.800 --> 1:34:49.920 factories to China like like the like they'll they'll they'll 1:34:50.000 --> 1:34:52.519 take an entire factory, break it down, put it in 1:34:52.680 --> 1:34:55.320 boxes and then just like ship at the China great 1:34:55.920 --> 1:34:59.080 at the time, and yes, so yeah they're they're they're 1:34:59.120 --> 1:35:01.680 just like sending to knowlogy of China. And the end 1:35:01.720 --> 1:35:05.559 result of this is that you know, China goes from 1:35:06.080 --> 1:35:10.200 like fighting American troops with like like doing bannit charges 1:35:10.320 --> 1:35:15.600 like through the yeah yeah against the Yeah. I was 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:19.240 just like yeah to to you know, being an American 1:35:19.320 --> 1:35:22.560 ally and like invading Vietnam as a way to like 1:35:22.800 --> 1:35:25.800 stick it to the Soviets basically, and so you know, 1:35:26.240 --> 1:35:28.479 so the uses sensely just integrates China to the global 1:35:28.479 --> 1:35:30.839 supply chain, and they eventually do the same thing to Vietnam, 1:35:31.080 --> 1:35:33.920 which again is another country that they couldn't defeat militarily. 1:35:34.000 --> 1:35:35.640 But what they you know what they actually beat them 1:35:35.640 --> 1:35:38.439 with it's a shipping container. And before the shipping container, 1:35:38.520 --> 1:35:40.600 this would have been impossible, right, like basically it was 1:35:40.640 --> 1:35:43.160 too inefficient and too expensive, like the cost of shipping 1:35:43.240 --> 1:35:47.519 was too high to have all of this production. You know, 1:35:48.200 --> 1:35:50.280 like some half your parts made in China, some of 1:35:50.320 --> 1:35:52.680 them made India's on them made in like Japan's one 1:35:52.680 --> 1:35:54.000 of the maid in Korean and then shipped them all 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:56.439 around the world, which is how the modern system works. 1:35:56.520 --> 1:35:59.479 But with with container I shipping, suddenly shipping is really 1:35:59.560 --> 1:36:03.000 cheap and it becomes much cheaper to pay shipping costs 1:36:03.040 --> 1:36:06.040 it is to pay labor costs. And this is the 1:36:06.120 --> 1:36:08.320 solution to to the sort of war and the factories. 1:36:09.120 --> 1:36:11.000 You know, if if workers start making too much noise 1:36:11.000 --> 1:36:13.639 about pay or like again a god forbids start talking 1:36:13.720 --> 1:36:16.320 about like taking control of factories and running the democratically 1:36:16.439 --> 1:36:19.120 like some kind of anarchist monsters, corporation can just move 1:36:19.160 --> 1:36:23.360 the factories overseas, and this becomes an incredibly effective way 1:36:23.400 --> 1:36:25.640 to just destroy the labor movement because anytime, you know, 1:36:25.760 --> 1:36:28.800 organized labor starts making demands, you can be like, well, okay, sorry, 1:36:28.800 --> 1:36:30.600 we're just gonna pack up and we're gonna you know, 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:32.519 we're gonna go to China, We're gonna go to somewhere else. 1:36:33.479 --> 1:36:36.760 And this coincides with, you know, the thing, the thing 1:36:36.800 --> 1:36:40.080 that gets talked about a lot in the conventional accounts, 1:36:40.120 --> 1:36:43.439 which is the Wall Street sort of corporate takeover. Well, 1:36:43.640 --> 1:36:46.080 the Wall Street takeover of corporate America, which is something 1:36:46.120 --> 1:36:49.519 I think that sounds really weird to us now, But 1:36:50.720 --> 1:36:53.679 you know, the whole the whole story here is really 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:56.320 interesting and extremely long, and if if you want to 1:36:57.160 --> 1:37:00.720 like have a very detailed accounts of how this all 1:37:00.800 --> 1:37:05.600 played out, the book Liquidated by Karen Hoe is just incredible, 1:37:07.840 --> 1:37:11.160 like ethnography and history of Wall Street. She like she's 1:37:11.160 --> 1:37:13.439 a Karen has an athropologist, and she like went and 1:37:13.520 --> 1:37:15.640 worked on Wall Street and like did ethnography there for 1:37:15.680 --> 1:37:19.559 a bit and it's very interesting stuff, but it's kind 1:37:19.600 --> 1:37:23.360 of outside of our scope. So the very very very 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:26.920 short version is that the Wall Street bankers basically figure 1:37:26.920 --> 1:37:31.040 out a way to just like buy out corporations to 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:34.160 raise a bunch of money and just entirely buy out corporations. 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:37.280 And then once they have the corporation, right, what what 1:37:37.439 --> 1:37:39.479 what what the you know? This is corporate rating, So 1:37:39.600 --> 1:37:41.760 they're they're they they loot all the assets, they sell 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:43.200 it off, and they try to sell off their stock 1:37:43.200 --> 1:37:45.519 at a higher price. The parcels of this is sort 1:37:45.560 --> 1:37:47.760 of complicated, but the net result of this is that 1:37:47.840 --> 1:37:50.640 Wall Street completely takes over the corporate world in the 1:37:50.680 --> 1:37:52.840 way they hadn't before. Like the wall streets. The wall 1:37:52.880 --> 1:37:55.439 street like finance people are now, you know, they're there 1:37:55.439 --> 1:37:59.640 are the people making off the decisions, and you know, 1:38:00.040 --> 1:38:02.400 and and they're their only goal is to raise the 1:38:02.400 --> 1:38:04.559 stock price, like that's that's the only thing they care about. 1:38:04.560 --> 1:38:06.160 That they don't they don't even care about making money, 1:38:06.439 --> 1:38:08.240 right if if you lose money and your stock price 1:38:08.280 --> 1:38:12.599 still rises, like you don't care. And those guys start 1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:14.599 looking at a lot of the things that had existed 1:38:14.600 --> 1:38:18.599 in corporations before that, things like pensions, uh, particularly things 1:38:18.640 --> 1:38:21.200 like research and development. They look at it and go, Okay, 1:38:21.240 --> 1:38:22.960 why are we spending money on R and D? Like 1:38:23.040 --> 1:38:24.840 this this doesn't this doesn't raise our stock price, This 1:38:24.880 --> 1:38:27.720 doesn't have any immediate shorter and value. So they cut it, right, 1:38:27.760 --> 1:38:30.920 They start cutting pensions, They start just destroying the unions, 1:38:31.920 --> 1:38:35.559 and you know, and and because because this is happening 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:40.240 at the same time as corporations really like get the 1:38:40.320 --> 1:38:43.559 ability to outsource for the first time, you know, they 1:38:43.680 --> 1:38:46.960 lean into it and they start essentially, we're just just 1:38:47.000 --> 1:38:48.719 slashing the amount of people who work for the company, 1:38:49.320 --> 1:38:51.439 right and so you know, and so and instead of 1:38:51.479 --> 1:38:53.920 having direct employees, they start working with contractors and they 1:38:53.960 --> 1:38:57.720 start moving to the contractors overseas, and you know, and 1:38:57.800 --> 1:38:59.200 and this is this is where we get to sort 1:38:59.240 --> 1:39:05.960 of this whole outsourcing wave because you know, something I 1:39:05.960 --> 1:39:11.280 don't think I talked about enough withoutsourcing is why actually 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:14.479 are the labor costs lower in the countries that these 1:39:14.520 --> 1:39:18.960 people are are moving their factories to h And part 1:39:19.000 --> 1:39:21.160 of it is, you know, people talk about development like 1:39:21.160 --> 1:39:24.760 they're moving to undeveloped countries, and you know, part of 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:27.080 part of part of development is just you know, how 1:39:27.160 --> 1:39:30.560 much technological capacity their manufacturing system has, right, and that 1:39:30.800 --> 1:39:33.040 you know. But but the other part of it is 1:39:33.160 --> 1:39:37.000 that if you move your production to say Columbia, right 1:39:37.160 --> 1:39:38.800 or like you know, you're investing in sort of like 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:41.600 cocoa bean farming in Columbia and people try to do 1:39:41.640 --> 1:39:45.320 you need organizing, you can hire des squads to murder them. Yeah, 1:39:45.400 --> 1:39:47.559 and yeah, yeah, it's like you can basically just sort 1:39:47.560 --> 1:39:49.479 of like you can you can outsource the violence and 1:39:49.520 --> 1:39:52.240 you can you can you know, the corporate term for 1:39:52.240 --> 1:39:54.200 it is reducing labor costs, but really what you're doing 1:39:54.320 --> 1:39:57.200 is just like murdering people with death squads and terrorizing them, 1:39:57.680 --> 1:40:00.880 and you know that that does lower labor costs, right, 1:40:01.479 --> 1:40:04.040 But you know, and I think there's there's another example 1:40:04.040 --> 1:40:07.519 of this, Like this is a lot of what like 1:40:07.720 --> 1:40:10.800 the killing at Tienamen was really about. It was you know, 1:40:11.240 --> 1:40:13.320 not so much in Tianna Square itself. I've talked about 1:40:13.320 --> 1:40:16.280 this elsewere but like the workers that they kill outside 1:40:16.320 --> 1:40:20.280 of the square, like a lot of the reason they're 1:40:20.280 --> 1:40:24.040 doing very little about Tinaman Square other than like protesters 1:40:24.720 --> 1:40:28.160 China government bad. The guy stands up the tank and 1:40:28.240 --> 1:40:32.760 then yeah, yeah, yeah, I've talked about this elsewhere. More 1:40:32.920 --> 1:40:34.880 like the very short version is, so there's a bunch 1:40:34.880 --> 1:40:37.439 of students in the square, right, and the students in 1:40:37.520 --> 1:40:41.799 the square itself like basically they kind of went democracy 1:40:41.800 --> 1:40:44.160 and mostly they want like market reforms to go faster. 1:40:45.960 --> 1:40:49.439 But then outside of the square, you know, bijings like 1:40:49.479 --> 1:40:53.160 whole working class shows up and there's these enormous demonstrations. 1:40:53.240 --> 1:40:56.719 They basically start like like barricading like blocks and blocks 1:40:56.760 --> 1:40:58.479 and blocks, and like this radius outside of the street. 1:40:58.479 --> 1:41:00.120 You get this sort of like mini commune thing ing, 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:04.040 and those guys are like you know, like they're they're 1:41:04.080 --> 1:41:07.880 they're advocating for democracy and the factory like they're you know, 1:41:08.000 --> 1:41:14.720 they're they're talking about things like like they're they're like that, 1:41:14.840 --> 1:41:16.840 you know, they they they they they have their like 1:41:17.040 --> 1:41:19.639 marks out and they're talking about how like they're they're 1:41:19.640 --> 1:41:22.360 they're calculating their rate of surplus value that's being extracted 1:41:22.360 --> 1:41:25.479 from them by the capitalists. And those are the people, 1:41:25.560 --> 1:41:27.640 like almost everyone who dies at Chana man Is is 1:41:27.680 --> 1:41:29.240 from those guys. Like those are the people that they 1:41:29.320 --> 1:41:33.200 just get massacred. And you know, and and the reason 1:41:33.320 --> 1:41:35.880 that happens is that the CCP is looking at this 1:41:36.000 --> 1:41:38.040 and it's like, okay, this, this is this is like 1:41:38.760 --> 1:41:40.120 this this is sort of this is the return of 1:41:40.200 --> 1:41:41.960 organized labor, and we need to destroy it before it 1:41:42.040 --> 1:41:45.360 like gets anywhere. And so they do, and organized labor 1:41:45.439 --> 1:41:51.240 and China just implode. I mean it was already pretty 1:41:51.280 --> 1:41:53.040 weak because you have a lot of stake cantual unions, 1:41:53.080 --> 1:41:55.880 but I mean now it's just nothing. And you know, 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:57.240 and and and there, I mean there there have been 1:41:57.240 --> 1:41:59.560 attempts to labor organizing and China sort of recently and 1:41:59.600 --> 1:42:01.600 like yeah, the to be just rest everyone, right, and 1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:03.519 so you know this, this this is how this is, 1:42:03.600 --> 1:42:06.120 this is the price of cheap labor. Right, It's just 1:42:06.320 --> 1:42:10.200 incredible state repression. But this is also you know, and 1:42:10.439 --> 1:42:12.880 this is this is a sort of like macro scale 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:15.960 thing of why the supply chains suck because everyone talks 1:42:16.000 --> 1:42:17.680 about like the efficiency of the supply chaine, but the 1:42:17.720 --> 1:42:20.920 supply chains aren't efficient. They make no sense, right if 1:42:21.000 --> 1:42:23.679 if if if what you're trying to do is move 1:42:23.800 --> 1:42:27.160 something quickly from points A to point B. They make 1:42:27.240 --> 1:42:30.599 no sense because you know, these supply chain are spread 1:42:30.600 --> 1:42:33.400 all over the world, like in individual parts are being 1:42:33.439 --> 1:42:36.639 made in six countries, right you have like people will 1:42:37.439 --> 1:42:40.800 like for tax dodge purposes, like they'll have one part 1:42:40.840 --> 1:42:42.840 of a component's built in one country, and then they'll 1:42:42.840 --> 1:42:44.479 move it from another country to have another part of it, 1:42:44.520 --> 1:42:46.080 and then they'll ship all of it to Mexico and 1:42:46.120 --> 1:42:48.040 they'll ship it across the border and they'll have the 1:42:48.080 --> 1:42:50.040 whole thing be assembled in the USC they can say 1:42:50.080 --> 1:42:51.640 it was made in the US. Like there's all of 1:42:51.680 --> 1:42:54.479 these things that are just just nonsense right there. They're 1:42:54.479 --> 1:42:56.759 not They're not efficient at all. It's it's completely ridiculous. 1:42:57.520 --> 1:42:59.240 It's it's this just you know, it's just completely absurd 1:42:59.320 --> 1:43:02.840 web And and the reason why it is designed like 1:43:02.960 --> 1:43:06.000 this is as as a giant sort of kind of 1:43:06.040 --> 1:43:09.160 unsurgency thing. Like the reason the reason supply chains are 1:43:09.280 --> 1:43:15.320 are just bad is because there, you know, they they 1:43:15.400 --> 1:43:17.519 they're not designed to move things. That they're designed as 1:43:17.640 --> 1:43:20.479 an instrument to just like solve the problem of of 1:43:20.920 --> 1:43:24.559 of of class power right there there there. They're designed 1:43:24.560 --> 1:43:27.519 destroy unions. Are designed to make sure that nobody ever 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:30.120 sort of like gets any ideas about widges, to make 1:43:30.160 --> 1:43:34.360 sure nobody gets an ideas about like taking anything. And 1:43:34.520 --> 1:43:38.479 so you know, but this this, this can work for 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:41.320 a while. The problem is again, like they're not efficient. 1:43:42.760 --> 1:43:44.840 It's it's just it just it is not efficient to 1:43:45.040 --> 1:43:49.840 like move have everything made in like six countries and 1:43:49.880 --> 1:43:51.479 then you have to send them somewhere else. Yeah, And 1:43:51.600 --> 1:43:54.479 so you know, it's efficient in the sense that it 1:43:54.560 --> 1:43:58.880 efficiently maximizes the value of stock prices for like stock 1:43:58.960 --> 1:44:01.120 by bags and stuff. And generally what is meant by 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:04.800 like efficiency in that sense is like what makes the 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:08.040 seventy people who actually own this company the most money. 1:44:08.160 --> 1:44:11.240 That's the efficient thing. But it's horribly inefficient in every 1:44:11.439 --> 1:44:13.560 practical sense of the work. And and and that this 1:44:13.680 --> 1:44:15.760 is kind of an interesting change because I mean, you 1:44:15.840 --> 1:44:18.000 know this this isn't to say that like the supply 1:44:18.120 --> 1:44:20.479 chains that worked before this were like better, because they 1:44:20.520 --> 1:44:22.519 also sucked in a lot of their own ways. But 1:44:23.439 --> 1:44:26.000 all of the like efficiency stuff that we're about to 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:29.600 talk about just just in time production, etcetera, etcetera, Like 1:44:29.760 --> 1:44:34.640 you know what isn't produced just in time? Sorry, but 1:44:34.800 --> 1:44:38.040 it isn't add right time. Yeah, they're they're they're they're 1:44:38.040 --> 1:44:40.080 not produced just in time anymore because the supply chains 1:44:40.080 --> 1:44:43.679 falling apart. That's that's what that is. Our promise about 1:44:43.720 --> 1:44:47.400 our sponsors is that, uh, they're they're not at all 1:44:47.479 --> 1:44:49.760 in time. Who knows when they'll get your products to you. 1:44:50.040 --> 1:44:54.599 There's no way to tell. It's impossible to know. We're back, Yeah, 1:44:54.680 --> 1:44:57.960 we're back to talk about how, you know, having having 1:44:58.040 --> 1:45:01.880 developed an entire network of extremely inefficient supply chains that 1:45:01.960 --> 1:45:05.120 just absolutely suck and don't make any sense. Uh, people 1:45:05.200 --> 1:45:08.680 tried to make them efficient. And this this is where 1:45:08.720 --> 1:45:14.960 we go back to Japan, because Japan, you know, I 1:45:15.040 --> 1:45:17.320 guess this is this is this is the other Forks boomerang, 1:45:17.800 --> 1:45:19.600 which is that you know, okay, so we we we 1:45:19.720 --> 1:45:23.519 industrialized Japan in order to like fighter colonial wars, right, 1:45:24.080 --> 1:45:26.720 But then you know, this turns into this huge like 1:45:26.840 --> 1:45:30.880 Pikachu face moment when Japan suddenly starts like industrializing more 1:45:30.920 --> 1:45:34.160 efficiently than the US does. It's very funny. And then 1:45:34.880 --> 1:45:37.519 and writes a bunch of books that are the premise 1:45:37.560 --> 1:45:42.160 of all of them, is Japan scary? Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah, 1:45:42.439 --> 1:45:44.439 you know, like this is interesting. Is this is an 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:46.439 interesting thing here, which is that like all of the 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:51.360 panic around China, there was exactly the same panic like 1:45:51.680 --> 1:45:54.120 around Japan in the in like the seventies, and it's 1:45:54.120 --> 1:45:56.720 exactly same, like right down to like a bunch of 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:59.559 socialists going like, hey, look this this is a model 1:45:59.600 --> 1:46:01.960 for anti capitalism. Like people people said that about the 1:46:02.040 --> 1:46:04.519 Japanese model, and it's like it's it's all, it's all 1:46:04.560 --> 1:46:07.120 the same thing. It's just it's just happening again. But 1:46:07.479 --> 1:46:09.840 you know what what what type what what Japan did, 1:46:09.920 --> 1:46:12.120 and specifically, what Toyota does is create this thing called 1:46:12.120 --> 1:46:15.880 the Toyota production system, which eventually becomes known as justin 1:46:15.960 --> 1:46:20.599 time production. And this if you've read anything about sort 1:46:20.600 --> 1:46:24.040 of the modern supply chain problems, you've almost certainly heard 1:46:24.080 --> 1:46:26.800 of just in time production or or lean production, and 1:46:27.120 --> 1:46:29.560 just in time and lean production are technically difference, but 1:46:30.520 --> 1:46:34.519 the differences don't matter for us. So yeah, and and 1:46:35.360 --> 1:46:38.320 this this stuff is derived from what Toyota was sort 1:46:38.360 --> 1:46:43.360 of doing in the post war era. And basically the 1:46:43.479 --> 1:46:47.600 goal of it is, you're you're never supposed to have 1:46:47.920 --> 1:46:51.519 any inventory that's just sitting there, so that the whole 1:46:51.520 --> 1:46:53.759 distant supposed to be constantly the whole system is supposed 1:46:53.760 --> 1:46:56.000 to be constantly in motion. So you have parts come in, 1:46:56.160 --> 1:46:58.040 they get put into their immediately get put into the 1:46:58.080 --> 1:47:00.560 production line, and the finished products immediately shipped out to 1:47:00.600 --> 1:47:03.640 the stores. And you know, the theory is that the 1:47:03.680 --> 1:47:06.160 stores are only going to carry exactly enough product to 1:47:06.200 --> 1:47:08.840 meet demands. And it's supposed to be quote unquote flexible, 1:47:09.400 --> 1:47:11.960 which means that it can react to shifts in consumer 1:47:12.040 --> 1:47:14.800 taste and demand by like increasing or decreasing production, and 1:47:15.000 --> 1:47:17.479 it can't do this. This is what we've been seeing 1:47:17.600 --> 1:47:20.040 for the entirety of COVID, which is that you know 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:22.280 that this is this is why every time there's a 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:24.320 run of toilet paper, everyone runs out of toilet paper, 1:47:24.439 --> 1:47:27.439 because it turns out that these systems can't even a 1:47:27.520 --> 1:47:30.680 ten percent increase just completely obliterates this entire system and 1:47:30.760 --> 1:47:33.479 it just collapses and can't produce enough toilet paper. Yeah, 1:47:33.479 --> 1:47:37.040 and again just because it's expensive to store things. It's pricey. 1:47:37.120 --> 1:47:38.880 This is a big part of like why actually the 1:47:39.000 --> 1:47:42.439 John Deer strike, which has the potential to disrupt the 1:47:42.520 --> 1:47:45.920 status quote movement more than any strike in recent history, 1:47:46.600 --> 1:47:51.639 um is so potent because John Deer tractors are kind 1:47:51.680 --> 1:47:54.320 of a necessary part of the agriculture industry, not just 1:47:54.400 --> 1:47:56.479 their ability to sell new tractors, but their ability to 1:47:56.560 --> 1:48:00.000 repair the extant tractors. Like if harvest season comes around 1:48:00.000 --> 1:48:02.960 owned and there's not spare parts to repair tractors that break, 1:48:03.040 --> 1:48:06.759 like food doesn't get harvested, it's a significant issue John Deere. 1:48:07.320 --> 1:48:09.360 We'll talk more about this in another date. But like, 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:11.880 not only did the most that they could do to 1:48:12.000 --> 1:48:15.240 squeeze their employees to suck out pensions, to cut you know, 1:48:15.720 --> 1:48:20.680 expenditures on wages, but they they set up their factories 1:48:20.720 --> 1:48:22.719 in such a way that there was no extra space, 1:48:22.800 --> 1:48:25.080 so they could not scale up any of these factories 1:48:25.120 --> 1:48:27.920 to increase demand when they needed to. So that now 1:48:28.040 --> 1:48:30.080 that John Deere is going on strike, if they lose 1:48:30.120 --> 1:48:33.200 a month of productivity, they can't ever catch up. It's 1:48:33.200 --> 1:48:36.280 impossible because they can't actually expand the productive capacity of 1:48:36.320 --> 1:48:40.000 their factories. And because the strike is hitting, they didn't 1:48:40.040 --> 1:48:42.639 have any extra spare parts lying around, So if ship 1:48:42.760 --> 1:48:46.320 gets broken, they can't manufacture the parts necessary to keep 1:48:46.800 --> 1:48:49.600 tractors functioning in a lot of American farms because they 1:48:49.640 --> 1:48:52.120 didn't store anything, because that was not the most efficient 1:48:52.240 --> 1:48:54.439 thing for the economic bottom line of the CEO who 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:57.479 gets a hundred and sixty million dollars a year. And anyway, 1:48:57.560 --> 1:48:59.320 this is this is the funny part about this whole thing, 1:48:59.400 --> 1:49:01.000 which is that you know, okay, so this whole supply 1:49:01.080 --> 1:49:05.400 chain system was based around just like destroying destroying the 1:49:05.520 --> 1:49:09.439 organized working class, right, But it's like they were so 1:49:09.680 --> 1:49:12.639 successful at it that they've like turned around and fucked 1:49:12.680 --> 1:49:15.400 themselves with it because like you know this this is 1:49:15.479 --> 1:49:17.800 this is the thing about about the John Deer strike. Right. 1:49:17.920 --> 1:49:20.800 It used to be you know, back back back if 1:49:20.800 --> 1:49:23.519 you look at like like how how the unions were 1:49:23.600 --> 1:49:25.920 broken in the eighties, or like if you look at 1:49:25.960 --> 1:49:29.280 like the giant like auto strikes you'd have in the seventies, right, 1:49:30.200 --> 1:49:31.920 and companies still do this to this day, but like 1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:34.920 there worst at it. The thing they would do is 1:49:35.200 --> 1:49:37.639 so okay. So you you you know, if you're a company, 1:49:37.720 --> 1:49:39.920 you know roughly when a strike is gonna happen, right, 1:49:39.960 --> 1:49:41.679 And the reason you know when a strike is gonna 1:49:41.720 --> 1:49:45.360 happen is because in the US, like the way labor 1:49:45.439 --> 1:49:47.839 law works is that like you can you can basically 1:49:47.920 --> 1:49:50.800 only strike like when a contract is up. I mean, 1:49:50.840 --> 1:49:54.439 you can do wildcats, but it's illegal. But you know, okay, 1:49:54.479 --> 1:49:57.280 so they knew that the audio unions, for example, we're 1:49:57.280 --> 1:49:58.880 about to go we're going to go on strike when 1:49:59.120 --> 1:50:02.280 when the contract like what was coming up, and you know, 1:50:02.400 --> 1:50:04.120 they'd have spies, and you can get a sense of like, 1:50:05.000 --> 1:50:07.160 you know, okay, so are are how likely are they 1:50:07.280 --> 1:50:11.760 to do this strike? And you know so so that 1:50:11.960 --> 1:50:14.400 that that lets you do things like build up an 1:50:14.479 --> 1:50:17.360 enormous sort of inventorio spare parts. It lets you build 1:50:17.400 --> 1:50:19.280 up an inventory of supplies, and it lets you build 1:50:19.360 --> 1:50:21.960 up you know it basically it lets you build up 1:50:21.960 --> 1:50:25.080 the capacity you need to outlast a strike. But the 1:50:25.120 --> 1:50:27.400 problem with just in times, they can't do that anymore 1:50:27.800 --> 1:50:30.519 because yeah, they they've they've you know, they've they've completely 1:50:30.600 --> 1:50:34.599 fucked themselves by by then the John deer situation because 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:36.920 they hadn't strike. The workers hadn't had gone on strike 1:50:36.960 --> 1:50:39.960 since eighties six. They've been putting funds into their strike 1:50:40.560 --> 1:50:43.400 survival fund for years, but the company had nothing like 1:50:43.560 --> 1:50:46.640 has Um. It's rather and this is you know, this, 1:50:46.920 --> 1:50:51.479 this is the other part of of of why everything 1:50:51.640 --> 1:50:53.960 like good that's happening right now is happening is that 1:50:55.560 --> 1:51:00.200 they they they you know, they everything has circled back 1:51:00.240 --> 1:51:03.240 around and suddenly all of these companies are you know, 1:51:03.360 --> 1:51:05.760 we are incredibly vulnerable to strikes again because yeah, as 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:08.960 you're talking about the just in time production thing, it 1:51:09.080 --> 1:51:12.960 only works if if everything actually comes in on time, 1:51:13.560 --> 1:51:15.840 all right, Like if if if any if any individual 1:51:15.960 --> 1:51:17.960 part is late, the whole system starts to fall apart. 1:51:18.000 --> 1:51:20.600 And then and then you can't repair it. And you know, 1:51:20.720 --> 1:51:22.880 and there's there's a lot of ways that that this 1:51:23.160 --> 1:51:26.840 this this can be very bad. Um. You know, we've 1:51:26.880 --> 1:51:28.479 talked about the john do you We talked about the 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:32.240 labor stuff. The other big thing that's happening is COVID, 1:51:33.040 --> 1:51:35.639 which has happened and continues to happen and has killed 1:51:35.680 --> 1:51:38.200 off just enormous parts of the working class. I mean, 1:51:38.479 --> 1:51:42.719 it's like four million dead worldwide or something. And again 1:51:42.760 --> 1:51:45.040 that that's also probably an undercount because that's just direct. 1:51:45.080 --> 1:51:47.360 Guess that's not like, yeah, it's probably like twice that 1:51:47.720 --> 1:51:49.360 it's I mean, we're looking at a minimum of seven 1:51:50.600 --> 1:51:54.440 in the US. And again that's probably a million undercounted 1:51:54.520 --> 1:51:56.880 at least. Yeah, it's it's a horror show, right, And 1:51:57.000 --> 1:51:59.519 and the people they killed with that, you know, like 1:52:00.680 --> 1:52:03.360 especially in the initial phases, like it was just it 1:52:03.439 --> 1:52:06.040 was just they took a chain chainsaw to the working class. 1:52:07.240 --> 1:52:09.240 And those are a bunch of people who you know 1:52:09.560 --> 1:52:12.160 that they're they're not replaceable, they're they're very highly skilled 1:52:12.160 --> 1:52:13.840 and they do a bunch of jobs that absolutely suck. 1:52:15.200 --> 1:52:19.840 And now you know, and one of one of the 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:21.920 places that this this has caused a bunch of problems 1:52:22.320 --> 1:52:24.920 is in the ports, because ever, the other thing that 1:52:25.000 --> 1:52:27.040 this entire supply gamb relies on is being able to 1:52:27.760 --> 1:52:31.160 very quickly and cheaply moved parts from you know, China 1:52:31.240 --> 1:52:35.040 to the US, from China to Mexico from like Bangladesh too, 1:52:35.800 --> 1:52:37.519 like symbolia, you have, you have, you have you have 1:52:37.560 --> 1:52:40.840 to be able to continuously like keep moving stuff around 1:52:41.000 --> 1:52:46.080 in in Yeah, you have to continuously keep moving ships around, 1:52:46.560 --> 1:52:48.320 and you also have to be able to load noneload them. 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:50.640 And we you know, we we we saw like there 1:52:50.760 --> 1:52:53.240 there was the that when that ship got stuck in 1:52:53.280 --> 1:52:57.120 the Suez, there is that whole yeah that you know 1:52:57.160 --> 1:53:00.880 that that that was sex We're when people couldn't get 1:53:00.920 --> 1:53:04.080 sex asses because the world's supply of sex asses for 1:53:04.200 --> 1:53:07.160 months was on that one ship. Um, it was a 1:53:07.240 --> 1:53:10.559 real crisis for the sex ass community. Those are plastic 1:53:10.640 --> 1:53:14.720 assis that you have sex with if you're curious. Yeah, 1:53:14.800 --> 1:53:21.160 it's the world appears as an immense collection of commodities, 1:53:21.400 --> 1:53:24.599 some of which are sex asses. Yeah, most of which, 1:53:24.960 --> 1:53:27.760 in terms of the ones that matter, are sex asses. Yes, 1:53:28.880 --> 1:53:32.519 sex ass industrial complex is really the lynchpin of global capital. 1:53:32.600 --> 1:53:35.080 But please continue. Yeah, well you know, but the sex 1:53:35.120 --> 1:53:37.840 assi indictial complex falls apart, and you know, and it's 1:53:37.880 --> 1:53:40.000 not just the ship being stuck in the Sis like 1:53:40.040 --> 1:53:44.120 made everything way worse, right, But it was very funny, Yeah, 1:53:44.160 --> 1:53:46.400 it was. It was extutally funny, but it was extremely funny. 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:48.760 The part the thing is like not very funny is 1:53:48.880 --> 1:53:51.880 that like, Okay, so in order to getting this to 1:53:51.960 --> 1:53:54.080 work right, you have to have a bunch of longshoremen. 1:53:54.800 --> 1:53:57.680 You have to unload all of the ship mhm. And 1:53:58.360 --> 1:54:00.080 you know, one of one of the problems with that 1:54:00.280 --> 1:54:02.040 is that is happening in the sort of global supply 1:54:02.160 --> 1:54:04.519 chain right now, is that the ships can't be unloaded 1:54:04.520 --> 1:54:07.200 fast enough. And part of this is like this job sucks, 1:54:07.360 --> 1:54:08.920 and people just a lot of people don't want to 1:54:08.960 --> 1:54:11.479 do it, and a lot of people died and in 1:54:11.520 --> 1:54:16.160 the and it's causing this huge problem, and and there's 1:54:16.160 --> 1:54:19.040 and then there's there's another you know, if you want 1:54:19.040 --> 1:54:22.040 to take like the macrospective about this, it's that this 1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:24.280 whole system is relying on logistics workers and so it 1:54:24.360 --> 1:54:27.639 also needs you know, you need truck drivers. And we're 1:54:27.640 --> 1:54:29.560 coming back and you know in the US, is that 1:54:29.640 --> 1:54:31.479 there's yeah, you know, there's there's a sort of a 1:54:31.479 --> 1:54:34.040 truck drivers now because again their job sucks and they've 1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:38.080 been like just absolutely screwing these people over for decades 1:54:38.080 --> 1:54:40.440 and decades and decades now and turn into the subcontractors 1:54:40.560 --> 1:54:43.840 just not paying them, and you know, and and this 1:54:44.120 --> 1:54:47.120 and when you know, when the when the ports shut down, 1:54:47.400 --> 1:54:48.920 like not even shut up, like when when the ports 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:53.360 are behind unloading stuff and when the trucks like that 1:54:53.400 --> 1:54:55.120 are supposed to be moving this stuff, they aren't off 1:54:55.160 --> 1:54:57.920 of them, and like the cost of that increases, it 1:54:58.000 --> 1:55:01.720 throws off the whole system. And that's that's another big 1:55:01.800 --> 1:55:06.200 part of like why this whole thing is is sort 1:55:06.200 --> 1:55:10.240 of imploding. And and it's interesting because I remember this. 1:55:10.360 --> 1:55:14.200 There was like a decade where like every other article 1:55:14.280 --> 1:55:16.440 we'll be talking about how they were going to like 1:55:16.520 --> 1:55:20.200 automate like truck driving. It was like, the truck drivers 1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:21.440 are all going to go out of business because they're 1:55:21.440 --> 1:55:23.520 going to automated. It just never happened at all. And 1:55:23.560 --> 1:55:25.720 say the same thing with with their you know, there's 1:55:26.240 --> 1:55:28.680 I mean there's been some port automization, but like not 1:55:28.800 --> 1:55:32.280 on the scale that you know, actually does anything. And 1:55:32.400 --> 1:55:33.880 part of the reason for that is, you know, I 1:55:34.000 --> 1:55:37.520 was talking about people not investing in research developments. Yeah, 1:55:37.600 --> 1:55:39.480 so the biggest people who aren't doing that are the 1:55:39.520 --> 1:55:42.880 shipping companies. And that's a good time because the shipping 1:55:42.920 --> 1:55:46.040 cup basically like container shipping, has been taken over by 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:50.240 was essentially just like a monopoly of two companies. And 1:55:50.480 --> 1:55:53.520 those two companies make just an indescribable amount of money. 1:55:53.640 --> 1:55:56.640 They have like a thousand percent profits and they just 1:55:56.720 --> 1:55:59.320 pay it all out as dividends. And so they're not 1:56:00.240 --> 1:56:03.440 they're not investing in any port infrastructure, they're not investing automation. 1:56:03.520 --> 1:56:05.880 They're just pocketing the money. And that means that, you know, 1:56:06.000 --> 1:56:07.800 we have all that and they're they're spending in in 1:56:07.920 --> 1:56:09.920 the case of John Deere, which I keep going back to, 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:11.840 a bunch of money lobbying to make it illegal for 1:56:11.920 --> 1:56:15.800 farmers to repair uh their tractors. Yeah, yeah, they're there. 1:56:15.960 --> 1:56:17.920 You know, they they figured they figured out that like 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:20.800 the the easiest way to make money is just get 1:56:20.840 --> 1:56:23.560 the state to shake people down for you. It's like 1:56:24.000 --> 1:56:27.400 fun like investing in in making anything that we have better. 1:56:27.560 --> 1:56:30.680 Let's just you know, like let's just turn the state 1:56:30.680 --> 1:56:35.120 into a det collector. And and it's interesting because so 1:56:35.400 --> 1:56:37.520 this this is the part of of the supply chain 1:56:37.600 --> 1:56:40.520 crisis that like Biden has been focusing on. But Biden's plan, 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:44.600 Biden's plans great. Biden's plan is literally make the longshoremen 1:56:44.720 --> 1:56:49.760 work harder. So his plan is here, we go, there, 1:56:49.800 --> 1:56:53.720 we go, there, we building back better. Baby. Yeah, we're 1:56:53.720 --> 1:56:55.720 gonna we're gonna make We're gonna keep the ports open 1:56:56.040 --> 1:56:59.480 twenty four hours a day. Seven days a week and 1:56:59.560 --> 1:57:01.840 like make people work weekends now, and then he also 1:57:01.920 --> 1:57:06.120 got FedEx Walmart and ups to do twenty four hour 1:57:06.240 --> 1:57:09.280 or seven day a week shipping. So yeah, the solution 1:57:09.400 --> 1:57:12.879 is literally just like feed more workers into a grinder 1:57:13.000 --> 1:57:16.640 and make them work longer, which is which is great 1:57:16.800 --> 1:57:20.240 and and you know will not in any way backfire. No, 1:57:20.400 --> 1:57:22.400 it's fine. I don't even think we should be talking 1:57:22.400 --> 1:57:25.640 about it. No, it's great, it's gonna it's it's yeah, 1:57:25.800 --> 1:57:27.920 it's you know, but I get like this is the thing, 1:57:28.040 --> 1:57:30.520 Like this won't work, and it can't and the reason 1:57:30.600 --> 1:57:32.040 it won't work is that, like part of the reason 1:57:32.080 --> 1:57:35.880 there's a shortage is that you know, it's it's not 1:57:36.000 --> 1:57:37.720 it's not just about the like the fact that people 1:57:37.760 --> 1:57:41.520 aren't paying enough. It's about the fact that these jobs 1:57:42.240 --> 1:57:47.000 are just awful. Like you have people, you have people 1:57:47.120 --> 1:57:49.640 working like twelve hours shifts that start at like six 1:57:49.720 --> 1:57:51.920 am and then they have to wake another twelve hour 1:57:51.960 --> 1:57:53.320 shift in hours later, and that these people have them 1:57:53.320 --> 1:57:54.760 can do this over and over and over again and 1:57:54.840 --> 1:57:56.920 it's well, and they don't like the way that these 1:57:56.960 --> 1:57:58.840 shifts are usually put on them is that like you'll 1:57:58.880 --> 1:58:01.520 find out when you come in that instead of working 1:58:01.920 --> 1:58:05.680 six am to four pm or whatever, they're actually gonna 1:58:05.680 --> 1:58:07.400 need you to stay until eight and then they're gonna 1:58:07.440 --> 1:58:09.080 need you to come in. By the way, you're gonna 1:58:09.080 --> 1:58:10.760 need to come in like two hours early tomorrow. So 1:58:10.840 --> 1:58:13.480 you're realized that like in between your two shifts, you 1:58:13.520 --> 1:58:15.800 have a total of eight hours to get home and sleep. 1:58:16.480 --> 1:58:21.120 And if you say no, uh uh, well, the idea 1:58:21.200 --> 1:58:22.560 is that if you say no, like you won't have 1:58:22.640 --> 1:58:25.200 the job. It's required. Now. The reality is that most 1:58:25.240 --> 1:58:27.760 of these companies are also pretty desperate to have these workers, 1:58:27.800 --> 1:58:30.680 and a lot of these manufacturing and packing firms, it 1:58:30.760 --> 1:58:32.760 takes time to train people up and then they quit 1:58:32.840 --> 1:58:35.520 a couple of weeks in because the work is miserable 1:58:35.640 --> 1:58:39.680 and the schedule is fucking miserable. Um, and it's yeah, 1:58:39.720 --> 1:58:44.200 it's all, it's it's it's it's simultaneously like deeply inhuman, 1:58:44.280 --> 1:58:46.480 but also is leading to a situation. There's a reason 1:58:46.560 --> 1:58:48.640 why there's so many strikes on right now is that 1:58:48.720 --> 1:58:52.400 there is opportunity because in sort of the chasing of 1:58:52.440 --> 1:58:56.480 short term profits, a lot of these fucking oligarchs have 1:58:57.040 --> 1:59:01.120 exposed themselves in a in a pretty vulnerable position. Yeah, 1:59:01.280 --> 1:59:04.480 and I think you know this this is coming back 1:59:04.560 --> 1:59:09.920 to a sort of the other way that when when 1:59:10.000 --> 1:59:12.720 there was a crisis in in the senties, the other 1:59:12.760 --> 1:59:15.120 way they saw this was just authoritarianism, right it was 1:59:15.400 --> 1:59:17.720 you know, is this is the pinos a solution, right like, oh, 1:59:17.840 --> 1:59:20.280 like workers are using control comprom minds, Okay, we'll just 1:59:20.320 --> 1:59:24.880 shoot them, right and yeah and yeah, and this is 1:59:25.040 --> 1:59:27.360 you know, they're they're they're finally running into a point 1:59:27.520 --> 1:59:30.280 where you know, this is this is the solution they've 1:59:30.280 --> 1:59:32.600 been trying to do now with with with this crisis, 1:59:32.720 --> 1:59:36.200 is you know, the the they're relying on the fact 1:59:36.280 --> 1:59:39.840 that just the workplace is just indescribably authoritarian. I mean 1:59:39.920 --> 1:59:43.080 it's it's like it's it's it's a dictatorship on a 1:59:43.240 --> 1:59:47.320 scale that is like like even to like the most 1:59:47.400 --> 1:59:52.440 despotic absolute monarch is just like unimaginable. Like your boss 1:59:52.760 --> 1:59:56.440 gets to control like when you ship, like they get 1:59:56.480 --> 1:59:59.000 a control, when you eat, they get a control exactly 1:59:59.080 --> 2:00:01.880 what you're doing, like at all times, they get control 2:00:01.920 --> 2:00:04.720 when you do it, they get a control like when 2:00:04.800 --> 2:00:06.840 the next time you're going to do it is they 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:08.560 don't even have to tell you when it's going to 2:00:08.640 --> 2:00:12.600 be untel like you show up and you know, for 2:00:13.040 --> 2:00:15.120 the this is this is this has been the gamble 2:00:15.880 --> 2:00:18.320 for for you know, capitalism, the entire existence, which is 2:00:18.360 --> 2:00:20.280 that like you just have to take this and eat 2:00:20.320 --> 2:00:22.520 ship or they get to take away your ability to eat, 2:00:22.600 --> 2:00:24.800 get medical care and have a place to leave to live. 2:00:26.160 --> 2:00:30.080 But that's not true anymore. Like you can just say no, 2:00:30.640 --> 2:00:33.000 you can tell them to funk off. You can, you 2:00:33.080 --> 2:00:34.880 know you can, you can, you can organize a union. 2:00:35.400 --> 2:00:39.120 You can just fucking just leave your job, like just 2:00:39.280 --> 2:00:42.760 leave it, fucking walk out. And this is why we focus. 2:00:42.880 --> 2:00:44.800 I mean, this is number one why within the context 2:00:44.880 --> 2:00:46.920 of unions, strike funds are so important, but also why 2:00:47.080 --> 2:00:49.400 mutual aid is so important. Is it? It? It potentially 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:52.920 when organized well enough provides people with the option to like, well, 2:00:52.960 --> 2:00:55.320 how are you going to feed yourself? Well, there's people 2:00:55.360 --> 2:00:57.080 in my community who want to make sure that I'm 2:00:57.120 --> 2:01:00.160 fed because they believe in what I'm striking for. Um, 2:01:00.440 --> 2:01:02.760 that's the promise of all of that. That's the practical 2:01:02.880 --> 2:01:07.840 behind the kind of high minded you know, anarchists of 2:01:08.840 --> 2:01:12.560 just you know whatever. Theorizing is the ability that like, well, 2:01:12.640 --> 2:01:16.320 this actually is a weapon too. Yeah, and I think 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:21.560 you know what else is a weapon? Chris are product. 2:01:21.840 --> 2:01:26.240 I hope we're not being sponsored some I hope we are. Chris. Look, 2:01:26.280 --> 2:01:28.880 I've I've said before for weapons. I'll read any ad 2:01:29.240 --> 2:01:31.160 for a weapons manufacturer as long as they send me 2:01:31.240 --> 2:01:34.520 some weapons. So come on, guys, get on it. You 2:01:34.560 --> 2:01:36.400 could uh, you could be you could be in the 2:01:36.480 --> 2:01:40.680 middle of this conversation. Raypheon, you know, send me a 2:01:40.760 --> 2:01:43.560 couple of missile guidance chips Lockheed Martin. You know you 2:01:43.760 --> 2:01:46.200 want to give me an F thirty five, we'll we'll 2:01:46.240 --> 2:01:49.240 plug you. You know. That's what's that's that's the deal. 2:01:49.760 --> 2:01:53.880 That's how it works. Baby. All right, we're back. Hopefully 2:01:53.880 --> 2:01:56.360 hopefully you have now heard the advertisement for knife missile 2:01:56.400 --> 2:01:59.360 to knife missile harder now with like five knives, a 2:01:59.440 --> 2:02:02.760 thing that I and not making up. It actually exists. Yeah, 2:02:03.120 --> 2:02:05.320 people keep being surprised that the R nine X is 2:02:05.360 --> 2:02:08.600 a real thing. But there's another one. There's there's there's 2:02:08.640 --> 2:02:11.280 one with more knives. They put more knives. We do 2:02:11.360 --> 2:02:14.440 you You're not gonna look again, you can't. It's like 2:02:14.560 --> 2:02:18.600 with Apple products, right, planned obsolescence is a critical you 2:02:18.720 --> 2:02:21.760 have to You can't just rest on your laurels. You're 2:02:21.760 --> 2:02:23.680 gonna run out of money. So you've gotta make another 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:26.560 knife missile with a couple of more knives. Yeah, just 2:02:26.920 --> 2:02:30.160 keep keep adding knives. Nothing can ever go wrong. Do 2:02:30.360 --> 2:02:33.560 not ask any questions about why you're developing knife missiles. 2:02:36.200 --> 2:02:38.640 Send me one and like a drone or three. I 2:02:38.720 --> 2:02:42.720 swear to God, I'll use it for legal purposes. Yeah. So, 2:02:42.800 --> 2:02:45.480 I guess the last thing that I that's that's really 2:02:45.520 --> 2:02:53.400 interesting about this moment that doesn't usually happen is that 2:02:54.360 --> 2:02:56.720 you know, okay, so if you, if you, if you, 2:02:56.760 --> 2:02:59.280 if you, you read your very basic marks, right. One 2:02:59.320 --> 2:03:00.960 of the things Marks talks about is that there's this 2:03:01.000 --> 2:03:03.320 thing called the Reserve Army of Labor, which is it's 2:03:03.360 --> 2:03:04.720 just like, you know, there's a bunch of people who 2:03:04.760 --> 2:03:08.520 are just always unemployed and they get along by doing 2:03:08.600 --> 2:03:12.760 sort of like odd jobs, like you know, like my, my, 2:03:12.920 --> 2:03:15.440 My quintessential person for this is like if you ever 2:03:15.480 --> 2:03:17.680 go on a subway, there's you know, it's it's the 2:03:17.680 --> 2:03:20.160 guy selling candy bars in the subway. Yeah, right, it's 2:03:20.240 --> 2:03:24.480 people who quasi legal you know, sometimes they just kind 2:03:24.520 --> 2:03:28.120 of like doing whatever. You know, we call them. In 2:03:28.400 --> 2:03:31.360 the West Coast, you have a lot of those, like, yeah, 2:03:31.720 --> 2:03:33.800 people who tream marijuana for a couple of months and 2:03:33.840 --> 2:03:36.200 then just kind of like crashing you know, camp sites 2:03:36.280 --> 2:03:37.640 the rest of the year or whatever. Like, yeah, there's 2:03:37.640 --> 2:03:39.920 a bunch of those folks, for sure. Yeah. And you know, 2:03:40.040 --> 2:03:41.760 and like the the the number of these people who 2:03:41.800 --> 2:03:43.760 have been just like kicked out of like the formal 2:03:43.840 --> 2:03:47.400 labor system has been increasing for a long time. But 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:51.120 what's interesting about this moment is that you know, every 2:03:51.200 --> 2:03:54.560 every strike you see has a second strike behind it, 2:03:54.720 --> 2:03:57.720 and that strike is the informal general strike, which is 2:03:57.800 --> 2:04:01.360 just again people just quitting their jobs and leaving. And 2:04:01.680 --> 2:04:03.920 you have this weird moment where where normally the sort 2:04:03.960 --> 2:04:05.920 of reserve army of labor is this thing that like 2:04:06.400 --> 2:04:08.600 capitalism can always sort of rely on as a way 2:04:08.640 --> 2:04:11.120 to sort of solve its problems because it's like, oh, well, 2:04:11.560 --> 2:04:13.000 all right, if if you're not gonna do this job, 2:04:13.080 --> 2:04:16.520 we can bring another person. But you know this, this 2:04:17.040 --> 2:04:19.440 is a weird moment where like the reserve army of 2:04:19.520 --> 2:04:22.320 labor is like fighting on our side. M h. And 2:04:23.600 --> 2:04:27.200 the fact that all of these people are just like 2:04:27.680 --> 2:04:31.160 you know, they're seeing the just incredible authoritarianism of these workplaces. 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:34.720 That's just horrific abuse. The fact that you know they're 2:04:34.880 --> 2:04:37.440 they're being in a lot of cases just asked to 2:04:37.440 --> 2:04:42.720 show up and die and they're saying no is a 2:04:42.800 --> 2:04:46.400 really sort of is a really incredibly powerful thing. And 2:04:46.720 --> 2:04:48.520 when when when you add that to the fact that 2:04:48.800 --> 2:04:51.000 you know, all these companies have completely screwed themselves with 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:52.680 how they designed the supply chains or it's it's all, 2:04:52.760 --> 2:04:55.760 it's all come back around and suddenly all all the 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:58.520 supply chain stuff that they carefully laid out over decades 2:04:58.560 --> 2:05:01.720 and decades decades is way to like break the union 2:05:01.800 --> 2:05:04.880 movement and make sure nobody ever asked more wages. You know, 2:05:05.120 --> 2:05:07.840 it's it's it's it's it's been revealed to be incredibly 2:05:07.880 --> 2:05:12.560 fragile and you know, week to our attack, and that 2:05:12.800 --> 2:05:16.839 leads us, I think, to this other tension in Biden's 2:05:16.880 --> 2:05:19.320 plan to sort of like revive the economy, which is 2:05:19.400 --> 2:05:24.680 that so the US technically speaking has this like very 2:05:24.840 --> 2:05:28.400 large central planning capability, but it only has it to 2:05:28.640 --> 2:05:33.440 like build weapons. So you know, like the army has 2:05:33.480 --> 2:05:35.800 this incredible ability like that there there's a lot of 2:05:35.920 --> 2:05:38.520 bullets you know it, despite the huge stress on the 2:05:38.600 --> 2:05:41.640 bullets supply chain, it really has scaled. You know, the 2:05:41.760 --> 2:05:46.320 prices have increased, but we're we're still still still getting bullets. 2:05:46.760 --> 2:05:49.840 America is great at making bullets. Yeah, it's less great 2:05:49.840 --> 2:05:53.640 at keeping tractors working, but be a problem. Yeah, then 2:05:53.680 --> 2:05:55.320 you're like even if you remember at the beginning of 2:05:55.360 --> 2:05:58.160 the pandemic, it was like the US just couldn't produce masks, 2:05:58.640 --> 2:06:01.000 like we said, we we never we never like did 2:06:01.120 --> 2:06:03.600 that right, like that, like the government never at any 2:06:03.680 --> 2:06:05.880 point was like We're just gonna make mass given the people. 2:06:06.360 --> 2:06:08.680 They just never did it. And so you know, our 2:06:08.720 --> 2:06:11.280 mass supplies. All those suppli chains suck. And the only 2:06:11.400 --> 2:06:14.520 way that like the States can intervene and get the 2:06:14.560 --> 2:06:16.760 supply chains to work is by doing one of two things. 2:06:17.320 --> 2:06:19.600 It's by either doing a thing Biden was doing, which 2:06:19.680 --> 2:06:22.720 is just go to a bunch of companies and tell 2:06:22.800 --> 2:06:25.800 them to make all of their workers work harder, which 2:06:25.840 --> 2:06:28.440 is the thing that like, you know, totally won't backfire 2:06:28.680 --> 2:06:30.400 or explode in his face. And then the second thing 2:06:30.680 --> 2:06:36.040 is for Biden basically to like do all this saber 2:06:36.120 --> 2:06:39.120 rattling about how we have to have like medical supply 2:06:39.240 --> 2:06:43.280 chains in the US because national defense or something. And 2:06:43.560 --> 2:06:46.280 that's the second thing he's trying to do. But you 2:06:46.360 --> 2:06:50.000 know that just that just makes the problem worse, right 2:06:50.000 --> 2:06:52.320 because once you once you lose the ability to outsource, you, 2:06:52.520 --> 2:06:55.960 you lose the hammer even beating the unions with And 2:06:56.080 --> 2:07:00.400 so you know, all all of the sort of all 2:07:00.680 --> 2:07:03.480 of the tendencies that are you know, making things like 2:07:03.760 --> 2:07:09.600 bad and scary right now are also weirdly making this. 2:07:10.720 --> 2:07:13.680 You know, the fact that prices are rising, right, the 2:07:13.960 --> 2:07:17.560 fact that there's all these shortages. It's it's it's making 2:07:17.760 --> 2:07:25.480 this like the best moment two you know, it's it's 2:07:25.480 --> 2:07:27.440 it's it's making this the best moment that and that 2:07:27.560 --> 2:07:31.080 anyone's had in ages to actually try to make something better. Yeah, 2:07:31.360 --> 2:07:33.800 and and and the important thing is we're starting to 2:07:33.840 --> 2:07:37.000 see it happen. And yeah, and we're we're we're we're 2:07:37.040 --> 2:07:39.680 gonna talk more about sch October and sort of the 2:07:39.720 --> 2:07:42.920 strike wave in the coming you know, weeks and months. 2:07:43.080 --> 2:07:46.120 But yeah, we're gonna we're gonna be hitting this pretty hard, 2:07:46.160 --> 2:07:48.000 even just next week. Um, we have a lot of 2:07:48.000 --> 2:07:49.760 stuff in the pipeline. Kind of wish we've gotten to 2:07:49.840 --> 2:07:52.400 it earlier. But there's a lot of stuff to talk 2:07:52.440 --> 2:07:55.920 about in the world happening that that's within our milieu. 2:07:56.040 --> 2:07:59.040 It turns out when you're when you're specific focus is 2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:02.520 things falling up a uh, you're always behind uncovering all 2:08:02.600 --> 2:08:05.760 the things that are on the mark. But I think 2:08:05.800 --> 2:08:08.480 it is a good time to to to drive this 2:08:09.240 --> 2:08:12.640 to a close, to drag this episode out behind the 2:08:12.760 --> 2:08:15.560 farm the barn, and and and shoot it and bury 2:08:15.600 --> 2:08:18.280 it in a shallow grave and and break its bones 2:08:18.320 --> 2:08:22.040 with the hammers that the police can't identify it. Chris, Um, 2:08:22.960 --> 2:08:26.080 thank you for putting this together. I got anything anything 2:08:26.120 --> 2:08:31.320 else to say? Uh, quit your job, you or you 2:08:31.480 --> 2:08:34.240 and or unionize your workplace and or take it over 2:08:34.360 --> 2:08:37.640 and run it yourselves, because Lord knows the people who 2:08:37.720 --> 2:08:40.520 are telling you what to do, just literally do not 2:08:40.800 --> 2:08:47.040 care if you die. Yeah, And I mean with with that, no, no, no, no, 2:08:47.200 --> 2:08:50.400 I was just gonna uh, I don't know what I 2:08:50.440 --> 2:08:52.120 was gonna do, Chris, I don't know what I was 2:08:52.160 --> 2:08:54.560 gonna do. Do do Go go do something. You know 2:08:54.840 --> 2:08:57.640 you're you're listening to things, Go do something. Yeah, and 2:08:57.840 --> 2:09:00.240 and yeah, and if you want to live and to 2:09:00.400 --> 2:09:07.280 us do more things. We are allegedly allegedly we we 2:09:07.440 --> 2:09:10.200 we are at cool Zone media on on the Twitter 2:09:10.600 --> 2:09:13.480 and and the you can't prove that in court, it's true. 2:09:14.280 --> 2:09:16.240 Good luck, good luck to them and trying to prove 2:09:16.360 --> 2:09:19.040 that we did this. Yeah, that's right, motherfucker's all right. 2:09:20.040 --> 2:09:41.040 Uh uh excellent, Chris, that's good. That's good. That's the 2:09:41.160 --> 2:09:43.560 kind of a tonal grunting that people have come to 2:09:43.640 --> 2:09:47.800 express respect from the introductions of my podcast. I was 2:09:47.880 --> 2:09:49.960 hoping it wouldn't be that, but then it was so 2:09:50.280 --> 2:09:56.080 bad that it was great thrill. That's our brand. Now 2:09:56.520 --> 2:09:59.800 it can't be anything else. We've we've established it. Look, 2:09:59.840 --> 2:10:02.280 no body else is doing that. The Cometown guys, I 2:10:02.400 --> 2:10:05.480 assume aren't a totally grunting to start their podcast. I 2:10:05.560 --> 2:10:10.680 don't know, actually, but I assume not. I guess this 2:10:11.040 --> 2:10:14.040 is just how we start It could happen here is 2:10:14.080 --> 2:10:18.000 a podcast. You don't sound like you believe it enthusiastically, 2:10:18.120 --> 2:10:27.440 Chris with feeling. This is a podcasting happening here. That yeah, excellent, 2:10:27.680 --> 2:10:29.240 that's how we do it. Okay, what are we talking 2:10:29.240 --> 2:10:32.360 about today? Well, one of the things that is happening here, 2:10:32.680 --> 2:10:36.320 as we have discussed briefly in previous episodes is a 2:10:36.440 --> 2:10:40.720 bunch of strikes, And with us today to talk about 2:10:41.200 --> 2:10:45.120 one of these stripes, specifically the Collogue strike is Mel Buwer, 2:10:45.240 --> 2:10:49.400 an independent researcher, educator, and freelance journalists based in Omaha, Nebraska, 2:10:49.520 --> 2:10:53.480 where this particular strike is taking place, who has done 2:10:53.600 --> 2:10:57.200 done a lot of journalism previously on the local Protestant 2:10:57.280 --> 2:11:01.600 Uprising Street and is also researching writing a book on 2:11:01.640 --> 2:11:08.960 alternative media. Hi, Hello, we'll welcome to the show. Than strikes, 2:11:09.040 --> 2:11:11.560 strikes apparently is what's up? It is? It is Strictober. 2:11:12.240 --> 2:11:19.040 We're doing strikes, strike wave baby. Ye. So this this 2:11:19.200 --> 2:11:22.240 specific strike, Um, why don't can you can you walk 2:11:22.320 --> 2:11:25.480 us through a bit about how we got to the 2:11:25.560 --> 2:11:29.840 point where this Kellogg factory is on strike? Um? Well, 2:11:30.040 --> 2:11:34.480 first off, it's four plants. It's all for American Kellogg 2:11:34.600 --> 2:11:38.840 cereal plants have gone on strike. Um. The workers and 2:11:38.920 --> 2:11:42.840 these plants are represented by the bakery, confectionery tobacco workers 2:11:42.880 --> 2:11:46.520 in grain Miller's International Union. I do love that bakeries 2:11:46.640 --> 2:11:50.520 and tobacco workers are in the same union. Yeah that's 2:11:50.640 --> 2:11:55.760 rat yeah yeah. So um, their contract was up for 2:11:55.840 --> 2:12:01.839 renegotiation in actually UM and UM due to a series 2:12:01.920 --> 2:12:06.680 of weird things happening, they pushed the negotiations to UM. 2:12:06.760 --> 2:12:11.960 They renegotiate their contract every five years UM and at 2:12:12.040 --> 2:12:18.320 stake this year, UM was a sort of pushing back 2:12:18.360 --> 2:12:22.080 against a recently introduced to tier employment system that they 2:12:22.480 --> 2:12:28.280 company sort of strong armed the union into, which essentially 2:12:29.160 --> 2:12:31.760 is not it's not a good deal for anyone UM. 2:12:32.720 --> 2:12:36.920 In they pushed in this sort of two tier system 2:12:37.080 --> 2:12:40.800 where one tier is a lower transitional tier and one 2:12:40.840 --> 2:12:45.600 tier is a legacy or full time employee tier. UM. 2:12:45.680 --> 2:12:47.640 And what it is is that you know, it amounts 2:12:47.720 --> 2:12:56.040 to a difference of twelve bucks an hour and less benefits. UM. Yes, yes, UM. 2:12:57.560 --> 2:13:00.760 Dan Osborne recently did an interview with Ax Salvarez at 2:13:00.800 --> 2:13:03.080 Working People podcast and he really kind of talked about 2:13:03.120 --> 2:13:06.640 exactly what was going on there UM. And you know, 2:13:06.680 --> 2:13:09.280 there's four people who work in four plants. There's about 2:13:09.320 --> 2:13:13.920 four employees at the Omaha plant, which has been around 2:13:13.960 --> 2:13:18.200 for decades and UM. Essentially what this tier system does 2:13:18.680 --> 2:13:23.160 is it's capped at their union workforce. And the whole 2:13:23.200 --> 2:13:27.520 idea is as these full time employees retire or quit, 2:13:28.000 --> 2:13:31.040 then these transitional employees will sort of be funneled into 2:13:31.240 --> 2:13:35.000 the full time tier. Right over the last five years, 2:13:35.080 --> 2:13:38.800 that hasn't really happened really at all. Um. It was 2:13:38.840 --> 2:13:41.200 a bad deal from the start according to many of 2:13:41.280 --> 2:13:43.880 the workers who sort of felt like they, you know, 2:13:43.960 --> 2:13:46.640 they were backed into a wall because Kellogg's was threatening 2:13:46.680 --> 2:13:49.080 to close the Memphis plant if they didn't ratify this 2:13:49.560 --> 2:13:55.600 negotiated contract. So rather than experience, you know, five hundred 2:13:55.640 --> 2:13:59.840 layoffs in Memphis, they just agreed to it. So they 2:14:00.040 --> 2:14:05.040 you going to the negotiating table in that they were 2:14:05.080 --> 2:14:10.080 going to try and sort of walk that back because 2:14:10.360 --> 2:14:13.880 these workers all work in the same plant, same days 2:14:14.480 --> 2:14:17.960 for a second third shift. Transitional workers are working side 2:14:18.000 --> 2:14:20.960 by side with these full time employees, working the same hours, 2:14:21.080 --> 2:14:23.880 which can amount to seven days a week twelve the 2:14:23.960 --> 2:14:27.440 sixteen hours a day on mandatory over time, and they 2:14:27.520 --> 2:14:30.240 are making twelve dollars an hour less and they are 2:14:30.320 --> 2:14:33.840 not getting the benefits that these full time employees are getting. 2:14:34.480 --> 2:14:36.440 So really, these full time employees are kind of going 2:14:36.480 --> 2:14:39.880 to bat for the transitional employees. UM, Kelloggs wants to 2:14:40.000 --> 2:14:44.000 remove the cap which the union negotiated, which is attent 2:14:44.080 --> 2:14:46.040 of their workforce. They want to to do that, do 2:14:46.120 --> 2:14:48.760 away with that so that they can continue hiring more 2:14:48.880 --> 2:14:55.680 transitional workers, and they want to funk with the insurance benefits. So, uh, 2:14:55.800 --> 2:15:01.040 the union tried to negotiate this. I think according to 2:15:01.120 --> 2:15:04.720 the local union president, Kellogg's negotiators were at the negotiating 2:15:04.760 --> 2:15:08.360 table for ten hours and they negotiated eight hours a day, 2:15:08.920 --> 2:15:12.440 five days a week for two weeks. Ten hours there 2:15:12.440 --> 2:15:16.640 at the table. So they weren't interested in negotiating a contract. 2:15:16.760 --> 2:15:20.280 They had laid out their their terms and they essentially 2:15:20.400 --> 2:15:22.320 told the union to go kick rocks. And so the 2:15:22.440 --> 2:15:27.120 union said, you know, we have we have until October 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:29.040 five and then our contract is up, and if we 2:15:29.120 --> 2:15:31.520 haven't ratified a new contract, then we're going out on strike. 2:15:31.600 --> 2:15:35.480 And that's ultimately what happened. So they've been on strike 2:15:35.560 --> 2:15:39.120 for this will be their fourteenth day today. I think 2:15:39.360 --> 2:15:41.800 the fight against the two tier system, I think is 2:15:41.800 --> 2:15:44.120 an interesting part of this because that's been a huge 2:15:44.200 --> 2:15:47.480 part of a lot of the different strikes you've been 2:15:47.480 --> 2:15:49.320 seeing since the John Deer strikes, is part of the 2:15:49.440 --> 2:15:53.320 Kaiser strikes. And Yeah, I'm wondering what you think specifically 2:15:53.360 --> 2:15:57.520 about the fact that this is like this is the 2:15:57.680 --> 2:16:00.400 moment that people have decided to like push back against 2:16:00.440 --> 2:16:03.280 against two or even three tier systems they were introduced 2:16:03.320 --> 2:16:06.360 in the last really like ten or fifteen years. For 2:16:06.400 --> 2:16:09.400 the most part, well, I think it's just, you know, 2:16:09.480 --> 2:16:11.960 it's a divide and conquer strategy for Kellogg's or for 2:16:12.040 --> 2:16:14.480 these other companies. And ultimately, what it looks like is 2:16:14.560 --> 2:16:20.400 it uh destabilizes well established unions, especially at Kellogg's. UM 2:16:20.960 --> 2:16:25.320 and UM, it pits workers against each other, you know, UM, 2:16:25.640 --> 2:16:29.000 particularly at Kellogg's. If they're able to remove this cap 2:16:29.120 --> 2:16:32.640 on this tier system, UM, what they're essentially doing is 2:16:32.680 --> 2:16:37.039 they're creating a more precarious workplace for these workers. UM. 2:16:37.600 --> 2:16:39.840 The turnover rate and the lower tier at the Omaha 2:16:39.959 --> 2:16:45.600 plant is right around UM. And you know, prior to 2:16:46.680 --> 2:16:48.560 you didn't really see a whole lot of people leaving 2:16:48.640 --> 2:16:51.080 the Kellogg's plant. You know, these were These are workers 2:16:51.160 --> 2:16:55.840 who are spending their entire careers at this plant. Their 2:16:55.920 --> 2:16:59.520 parents work, their their grandparents work there. You know. UM, 2:17:00.040 --> 2:17:03.800 they because they're all getting paid around the same amount 2:17:03.840 --> 2:17:06.480 of money, there isn't this tension on the line, so 2:17:06.600 --> 2:17:08.920 they're they're working with each other, they're helping each other, 2:17:09.240 --> 2:17:14.959 right UM. And with this tier system, what they're doing 2:17:15.120 --> 2:17:19.480 is they're throwing these newer workers into uh pretty uh 2:17:19.800 --> 2:17:24.080 insane factory conditions, UM and making it really difficult for 2:17:24.200 --> 2:17:27.040 them to uh I feel like they have any reason 2:17:27.120 --> 2:17:29.959 to stay there. Right. A lot of these people will, 2:17:30.280 --> 2:17:33.760 you know put in. Some of these workers were transitional 2:17:33.800 --> 2:17:36.480 workers who weren't officially hired by the company. You know, 2:17:36.560 --> 2:17:40.560 there aren't full time employees. They aren't receiving benefits like 2:17:40.720 --> 2:17:43.600 the full time employees are for five years. They work 2:17:43.680 --> 2:17:48.360 this every day, seven days a week, three months on end. Right. Uh. 2:17:48.520 --> 2:17:51.480 They have this really you know punitive attendance based points 2:17:51.520 --> 2:17:55.840 system that discourages you calling in sick. There's injuries that 2:17:55.920 --> 2:17:58.520 happened in the factory all the time. You know. I 2:17:58.600 --> 2:18:00.880 went out to the line and wrote a piece for 2:18:02.200 --> 2:18:05.560 the Real News about this, and pretty much every person 2:18:05.640 --> 2:18:09.640 I talked to showed me scars from accidents that happened, 2:18:09.680 --> 2:18:13.560 injuries in the plant. UM. The union president himself got 2:18:13.640 --> 2:18:17.760 his hand stuck in a m like a mill and 2:18:18.120 --> 2:18:19.600 broke all the fingers in his hand. He had to 2:18:19.640 --> 2:18:23.360 have ten surgeries on his hand, you know. UM, there 2:18:23.440 --> 2:18:26.480 was an accident at the plant two or three weeks 2:18:26.520 --> 2:18:29.760 ago wherein a transitional employee got both arms stuck in 2:18:29.800 --> 2:18:33.720 a conveyor belt. You know. Um, the thing is is 2:18:33.800 --> 2:18:37.520 these folks super proud of the work that they do, 2:18:38.160 --> 2:18:43.240 like absolutely take this work extremely seriously. You know, they're 2:18:43.280 --> 2:18:47.039 not even asking for changes to their overtime. They are 2:18:47.320 --> 2:18:50.680 not asking for you know, anything that you know, from 2:18:50.800 --> 2:18:53.400 me on the outside, i'd be fighting for more humane 2:18:53.440 --> 2:18:57.640 working conditions. But to them, you know, it's it's not 2:18:57.720 --> 2:19:00.280 like it's a point of pride, but they feld that 2:19:00.360 --> 2:19:05.920 they have put blood, sweat, tears, uh, you know, fractured relationships, 2:19:06.360 --> 2:19:09.160 time that they could be spending with their children into 2:19:09.240 --> 2:19:13.640 this factory and Kelloggs is essentially fucking them over. Yea. 2:19:13.720 --> 2:19:16.520 You know, they see, as we have sacrificed for this 2:19:16.680 --> 2:19:19.840 company for years and years and years, um, and we 2:19:19.920 --> 2:19:23.800 are asking for equal pay for all and for everyone 2:19:23.879 --> 2:19:26.160 to have the same health care so that we can 2:19:26.600 --> 2:19:31.600 do this job, you know, and Kelloggs is saying no, absolutely. 2:19:31.879 --> 2:19:35.040 You know. I think the union president said that some 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:39.760 of the negotiators called those demands outlandish during negotiations, which 2:19:39.879 --> 2:19:44.480 I think is just incredible, you know, just corporate greed. Yeah, 2:19:44.600 --> 2:19:46.280 I think the other part of the story is that, 2:19:46.520 --> 2:19:50.680 like I mean, it's kind of a weird consequence of it, 2:19:50.720 --> 2:19:52.720 but like one of the things, one of those consequences 2:19:52.760 --> 2:19:56.320 is sort of like rising like staple commodity price, staple 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:58.480 grain prices and stuff, is that Kelloggs like they're doing 2:19:58.520 --> 2:20:00.480 They have like record they have record off its right 2:20:00.520 --> 2:20:04.920 now and they're still just doing this ship because yeah, 2:20:04.959 --> 2:20:08.320 they made record profits during the pandemic. They gave their 2:20:08.400 --> 2:20:13.520 CEO pretty huffy raise bonus. Um, there was a stock 2:20:13.600 --> 2:20:17.720 buy back program that helped happened among the c suite 2:20:17.800 --> 2:20:20.400 folks last year. They made a lot of money, a 2:20:20.480 --> 2:20:23.280 lot of money. And UM, you know, these workers worked 2:20:23.320 --> 2:20:28.240 every day through the pandemic, UM continually understaffed, you know, UM, 2:20:28.920 --> 2:20:33.280 doing their best because again, they they take this job 2:20:33.480 --> 2:20:36.160 very seriously and they are proud that they are feeding 2:20:36.200 --> 2:20:38.800 the American people, you know, UM, and they are proud 2:20:38.840 --> 2:20:43.480 to work at Kellogg's. And uh, they feel that this 2:20:43.680 --> 2:20:48.800 contract is just shit, it's just ship. And you know 2:20:48.920 --> 2:20:51.120 the only sensible thing to do is to to walk 2:20:51.160 --> 2:20:53.280 out on strike because you know, they've been backed into 2:20:53.320 --> 2:20:57.720 a corner and negotiations have stagnated completely, you know, UM, 2:20:58.600 --> 2:21:04.320 and Um, they don't want to They don't want to 2:21:04.360 --> 2:21:08.280 back down from this, you know. Um, they and I agree. 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:10.199 I feel what they're what they're asking for is fair. 2:21:10.560 --> 2:21:14.360 It's very fair. I mean, I think it's I think 2:21:14.400 --> 2:21:17.440 asking for a lot more would be fair, but not 2:21:17.640 --> 2:21:19.800 my place to be doing. One of the things that 2:21:19.879 --> 2:21:21.960 strikes me about this you talk about this tier system 2:21:22.160 --> 2:21:25.280 that Kellogg's introduced, which I can't help but think of 2:21:25.920 --> 2:21:29.280 what happened at John Deere where they I think in 2:21:29.400 --> 2:21:32.440 nineties six cut pensions by two thirds and then like 2:21:32.680 --> 2:21:36.360 last year eliminated them entirely. And this kind of bid 2:21:36.520 --> 2:21:40.879 to pitt chunks of the workforced against each other. Um, 2:21:41.280 --> 2:21:44.160 where you have like you know, different groups making different 2:21:44.160 --> 2:21:46.879 amounts and sort of like, I don't know, it seems 2:21:46.920 --> 2:21:48.520 kind of like the strategy that you see in the 2:21:48.600 --> 2:21:52.879 broader economy, like written within within the space of a company, 2:21:52.920 --> 2:21:56.000 where you've got like some people who are getting pretty 2:21:56.040 --> 2:21:58.959 well taken care of in their jobs and other newer 2:21:59.080 --> 2:22:01.520 people who are who are getting more screwed over in 2:22:01.640 --> 2:22:05.160 kind of this this attempt to create division within the 2:22:05.240 --> 2:22:08.720 workforce so that this this kind of organizing doesn't happen. 2:22:09.760 --> 2:22:11.760 M M. I would agree. And you also have to think, 2:22:11.800 --> 2:22:14.520 you know, if they are able to remove this cap 2:22:14.800 --> 2:22:17.560 on the transitional tier, but that means that this is 2:22:18.080 --> 2:22:21.160 they'll be able to instead of say, say a full 2:22:21.160 --> 2:22:25.680 time employee retires, they leave that space empty, but they 2:22:25.760 --> 2:22:29.040 still need an extra space, an extra person, right, so 2:22:29.200 --> 2:22:33.119 they can just hire a transitional worker instead of funneling 2:22:33.640 --> 2:22:37.600 one of those transitional workers into that full time space. Ah, 2:22:38.720 --> 2:22:41.680 what ends up happening is suddenly you have instead of 2:22:41.840 --> 2:22:47.960 sevent full time to transitional, the it starts tipping, right, 2:22:48.000 --> 2:22:51.080 it becomes a more precarious workforce. Then say, for example, 2:22:51.160 --> 2:22:53.040 to do that in the next five years. You know, 2:22:53.200 --> 2:22:56.640 now they have seventy percent of these transitional workers who 2:22:56.959 --> 2:22:59.880 don't think the union is offering anything for them. They 2:23:00.000 --> 2:23:03.039 can essentially just offer a better deal to these transitional 2:23:03.080 --> 2:23:05.720 workers and kick the union out of the company at 2:23:05.760 --> 2:23:08.800 some point. You know. Um, and these folks on the 2:23:08.920 --> 2:23:13.200 line understand that and know that that's kind of Kellogg's plan, right, 2:23:13.360 --> 2:23:15.640 they know that the Kelloggs, what Kelloggs is trying to 2:23:15.720 --> 2:23:20.520 do is essentially destabilize the power of the union inside 2:23:20.560 --> 2:23:24.279 the plants. And everyone on the line that I've spoken 2:23:24.360 --> 2:23:28.080 with know exactly what's happening, you know, and these full 2:23:28.120 --> 2:23:32.120 time employees are out there every day making sure that 2:23:32.240 --> 2:23:35.720 their transitional and you know, colleagues know that that's why 2:23:35.760 --> 2:23:39.840 they're out there because they want to not allow this 2:23:40.080 --> 2:23:43.480 to be something that divides their workforce. It remains to 2:23:43.520 --> 2:23:45.720 be seen what's going to happen, you know what I mean. 2:23:47.040 --> 2:23:49.960 They've brought in scabs to get the plant up and 2:23:50.040 --> 2:23:56.720 running again, and most recently, uh, yesterday this morning. Yesterday, 2:23:57.480 --> 2:24:01.440 the Building and Construction Trades Council union and met with 2:24:01.959 --> 2:24:06.120 the union president in Omaha because they have about a 2:24:06.200 --> 2:24:10.279 hundred third party iron workers, carpenters, electricians, and skilled trades 2:24:10.320 --> 2:24:16.120 people that are union trades people that have contracts at Kellogg's, 2:24:16.760 --> 2:24:20.959 and they came to what Dan Osborne, the union president, 2:24:21.040 --> 2:24:25.400 decided called was a tough decision that those union workers 2:24:25.440 --> 2:24:28.000 are going to cross the picket line to honor those contracts. 2:24:28.720 --> 2:24:32.920 So Kelloggs is forcing the unions in the city in 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:36.640 like into a bind really because they're they're you know, 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:40.960 uh going to lose their own contracts at Kellogg's. So 2:24:41.360 --> 2:24:44.039 that's kind of been like the most recent development here 2:24:44.320 --> 2:24:48.840 is that rather than just temps coming in. We have 2:24:49.000 --> 2:24:53.400 now skilled union trades people from various Omaha unions who 2:24:53.480 --> 2:24:57.439 are also crossing the picket line two honor their contracts 2:24:57.560 --> 2:25:02.360 at Kellogg's, you know, um, past these striking workers. So 2:25:03.680 --> 2:25:07.000 it's a bit of a mess a little bit, you know. Yeah, 2:25:08.400 --> 2:25:12.120 there's so much going on right now. I'm kind of 2:25:12.200 --> 2:25:15.320 wondering what you think are the because we've got a 2:25:15.440 --> 2:25:17.640 number of strikes kind of all coming to ahead at 2:25:17.680 --> 2:25:20.400 the same time, I'm wondering, specifically from the Kellogg strike, 2:25:20.480 --> 2:25:22.800 what do you think are kind of the lessons that 2:25:22.879 --> 2:25:25.520 should be taken from what's happened so far for the 2:25:25.800 --> 2:25:29.680 broader labor movement. UM. I think the biggest thing that's 2:25:29.720 --> 2:25:34.160 kind of impacted me as I've gone to the line. UM, 2:25:34.240 --> 2:25:36.760 I've stood on the picket line, I've covered these you know, 2:25:36.879 --> 2:25:40.879 this strike, I've talked to people, UM, is that when 2:25:41.000 --> 2:25:45.360 these types of actions happen, they really only can be 2:25:45.520 --> 2:25:49.680 sustained because the community comes together to support them. You know. UM, 2:25:51.120 --> 2:25:54.520 these strike funds that are going around and folks showing 2:25:54.600 --> 2:25:56.240 up to stand on the picket line who are not 2:25:56.400 --> 2:25:59.200 part of the union are really sort of become you know, 2:25:59.320 --> 2:26:04.120 they are helping support these workers who can only hold 2:26:04.160 --> 2:26:08.039 out so long with finite resources. Right. So the big 2:26:08.160 --> 2:26:13.640 thing to me is that past these news cycles of 2:26:13.760 --> 2:26:17.040 excitement of strike Ober of you know, these people just 2:26:17.160 --> 2:26:19.240 walked out today, well they may be you know, they 2:26:19.320 --> 2:26:21.280 may be on the line for months and months on end, 2:26:21.520 --> 2:26:24.240 and the news cycle is going to move on, and 2:26:24.320 --> 2:26:26.080 these communities are still going to have to try and 2:26:26.400 --> 2:26:30.800 and and back up these labor actions, right Um. You 2:26:30.920 --> 2:26:34.120 really can't have true you know, you can't have a 2:26:34.200 --> 2:26:39.120 labor movement without you know, support, right um. And that's 2:26:39.200 --> 2:26:42.959 kind of been the biggest thing that has impacted me particularly. 2:26:43.200 --> 2:26:46.600 You know this Almaha used to be a really formidable union, 2:26:46.680 --> 2:26:49.480 tim you know, back in the eighties, it was really 2:26:50.120 --> 2:26:52.720 really something to see that the business unions in in 2:26:52.800 --> 2:26:55.800 the various locals here really had some of these union 2:26:55.879 --> 2:26:59.400 leaders had more political power than the mayor, right um. 2:26:59.560 --> 2:27:02.440 And that has gone downhill over the last forty years. 2:27:02.760 --> 2:27:07.200 And it's really cool to see, ah, the level of 2:27:07.280 --> 2:27:10.760 solidarity that's happening amongst the community, you know, um, in 2:27:10.840 --> 2:27:12.680 the ways in which people are kind of coming out 2:27:12.760 --> 2:27:14.800 to talk to and and be a part of this 2:27:14.959 --> 2:27:17.720 strike and to remind these Kellogg's workers that they're not 2:27:18.040 --> 2:27:20.600 operating in a bubble, you know, and that the rest 2:27:20.600 --> 2:27:23.520 of the community really hopes that the strike will end 2:27:23.600 --> 2:27:28.480 quickly and peacefully and with a really good resolution for 2:27:28.720 --> 2:27:33.119 these workers. You know. Whatever thing I wanted to ask 2:27:33.240 --> 2:27:37.200 about in in terms of sort of this this kind 2:27:37.240 --> 2:27:40.640 of research in to the union movements, and in in 2:27:40.800 --> 2:27:45.200 in terms of sort of communities support is the level 2:27:45.280 --> 2:27:50.199 of violence that there's been against like against the strikes. 2:27:50.360 --> 2:27:53.959 I've seen a lot of like stuff about people canna 2:27:54.000 --> 2:27:57.480 hit by buses and like, and I don't I don't 2:27:57.520 --> 2:28:00.240 know if I think I think I'm getting my strikes. 2:28:00.240 --> 2:28:02.520 I don't don't know if they've they have been direct 2:28:02.640 --> 2:28:04.640 car attacks on this specific picket line. But that's when 2:28:04.640 --> 2:28:07.360 I think that it's been happening a lot and a 2:28:08.000 --> 2:28:12.840 couple of documented cases. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I was 2:28:12.840 --> 2:28:16.240 wondering what you think about that, and like what actually 2:28:16.320 --> 2:28:19.800 can be done about the fact that, like, you know that, 2:28:20.120 --> 2:28:22.000 you know, like this just the fact that we're just 2:28:22.040 --> 2:28:26.480 seeing auto attacks on picket lines regularly, Now, I mean, 2:28:26.920 --> 2:28:31.560 is it that's you know, it's a it's a shitty development. 2:28:32.400 --> 2:28:35.039 You know. Um, I was out on the picket line 2:28:35.120 --> 2:28:39.920 last Thursday, and um, they were attempting to bring in 2:28:40.040 --> 2:28:45.640 buses at shift change past the the picketers who walk slowly. 2:28:45.760 --> 2:28:47.000 You know, they don't want to stop in front of 2:28:47.000 --> 2:28:49.440 the bus. It's illegal to stop and and you know 2:28:50.240 --> 2:28:52.360 make it, you know, so that they can't pass through 2:28:52.400 --> 2:28:55.160 the gates, but they slow them down for a little bit. 2:28:55.520 --> 2:29:00.800 And um, one gentleman was trying, you know, was standing 2:29:00.840 --> 2:29:04.920 there and this bus just bumped right into them. You know, 2:29:05.480 --> 2:29:09.040 there's videos that have been shared through local news of 2:29:09.160 --> 2:29:11.880 buses knocking down workers as they're trying to cross the 2:29:11.959 --> 2:29:15.400 picket line. UM. And I you know there are also 2:29:15.800 --> 2:29:18.360 personal vehicles that go through and it could be the 2:29:18.440 --> 2:29:23.360 private security that's been hired, it could be managers. UM. 2:29:24.200 --> 2:29:27.920 But you know they're running through these lines really quickly, dangerously. 2:29:29.240 --> 2:29:32.160 It's unfortunate, and you know, I don't have an answer 2:29:32.240 --> 2:29:37.360 for what the best UH solution for that is. You know, 2:29:37.640 --> 2:29:42.920 but vehicle tax have become sort of more uh, I 2:29:42.959 --> 2:29:45.199 don't want to say commonplace, but you see them happening 2:29:45.200 --> 2:29:48.760 a lot both at protests last year, and you know, 2:29:49.600 --> 2:29:53.520 I think Warrior met Cole had some bosses running through 2:29:53.560 --> 2:29:56.880 the lines and being reckless with their vehicles. You know. Um, 2:29:57.840 --> 2:29:59.920 the problem is is on the on the back end, 2:30:00.000 --> 2:30:04.400 and the police don't step in when they see these instances, 2:30:05.040 --> 2:30:08.680 you know. Um. And in fact, last Thursday, when we 2:30:08.840 --> 2:30:13.600 had a hundred plus motorcyclists from various mc s show 2:30:13.680 --> 2:30:17.720 up to support the strike, Um, the police were the 2:30:17.840 --> 2:30:20.959 ones who protected the scabs and made sure that they 2:30:21.000 --> 2:30:23.920 made it through the picket line. So you know, UM, 2:30:24.680 --> 2:30:27.560 the answer to that not sure, you know, yeah, I 2:30:27.600 --> 2:30:32.000 mean that's a time honored police tradition. Yeah, they historically 2:30:32.080 --> 2:30:37.520 don't don't exist to protect laborers, with the notable exception 2:30:37.760 --> 2:30:41.640 of of the sheriff and what was it, Mattawan and 2:30:41.800 --> 2:30:45.960 uh during the um the coal miner strike in West Virginia. 2:30:46.320 --> 2:30:49.960 M Well yeah they shot him so well yeah, but 2:30:50.040 --> 2:30:55.600 it shot some people first, yeah, Um, sid Hatfield that 2:30:55.680 --> 2:30:58.920 was the name. Yeah, I don't know. Um, I've gotten 2:30:58.959 --> 2:31:00.480 to know some of these folks the line of the 2:31:00.600 --> 2:31:04.160 last two weeks, and they're just fantastic human beings, you know. Um, 2:31:05.240 --> 2:31:09.120 they are accommodating and hard working, and they come from 2:31:09.160 --> 2:31:11.400 all age brackets and they bring their families out and 2:31:12.480 --> 2:31:14.640 you know they're getting they're getting a raw deal from 2:31:14.720 --> 2:31:18.840 Kellogg's and UM, so far, the community support has been 2:31:18.840 --> 2:31:23.240 overwhelmingly positive. Um, there hasn't really been like at the 2:31:23.320 --> 2:31:25.600 John Deer strike. They're not getting eggs thrown out them, 2:31:25.840 --> 2:31:30.160 you know. Um, they get a lot more honking and 2:31:30.480 --> 2:31:34.200 messages of support than they do people driving by to 2:31:35.320 --> 2:31:39.040 yell at them for uh, you know, being a strike. 2:31:39.280 --> 2:31:42.960 So that's been nice to see, you know. UM. And 2:31:43.200 --> 2:31:47.480 actually this weekend on Saturday, UM, there's gonna be a 2:31:48.360 --> 2:31:53.320 like cool vintage car show cruise around Kellogg's event that 2:31:53.360 --> 2:31:57.920 they've got planned the fire departments bringing rigs and um, 2:31:58.280 --> 2:32:02.680 teamsters fire department is yeah, and the Teamsters are bringing cars, 2:32:02.800 --> 2:32:04.640 and that there's a bunch of vintage car clubs that 2:32:04.680 --> 2:32:07.360 are going to be coming out. So you know, those 2:32:07.400 --> 2:32:09.440 types of things have like really kind of like fired 2:32:09.480 --> 2:32:11.160 up these people to keep them out on the line 2:32:11.240 --> 2:32:13.120 as long as they need to be, you know, so 2:32:13.680 --> 2:32:18.520 communities there for him. One of the things I'm continuing 2:32:18.600 --> 2:32:22.080 to wonder about is what it takes to close the 2:32:22.240 --> 2:32:27.119 gap between understanding that you and your colleagues are getting 2:32:27.160 --> 2:32:30.480 screwed over by this system and understanding that you and 2:32:30.560 --> 2:32:32.600 all of the other people striking at the same time, 2:32:32.680 --> 2:32:35.560 and perhaps even a bunch of people not striking are 2:32:35.600 --> 2:32:37.840 all kind of fighting the same fight. And then maybe 2:32:37.879 --> 2:32:42.560 there's grander things to achieve than the negotiation of a 2:32:42.640 --> 2:32:45.400 single contract, because that seems like the big leap that 2:32:46.959 --> 2:32:51.199 is going to be the real struggle to clear. Uh yeah, 2:32:51.440 --> 2:32:54.000 you know. Um. I will say that some of the 2:32:54.040 --> 2:32:57.080 workers are fully aware that this is not just about 2:32:57.120 --> 2:33:01.560 a single contract negotiation and is actually, you know, more 2:33:01.600 --> 2:33:04.600 about struggles of the working class against corporate greed and 2:33:05.160 --> 2:33:07.240 the ways in which the working class gets their asses 2:33:07.280 --> 2:33:10.600 handed to them all the time, um um. And they 2:33:10.680 --> 2:33:13.800 know that they know that at some point, perhaps at 2:33:13.840 --> 2:33:16.240 some point in the future, someone else is going to 2:33:16.320 --> 2:33:20.520 look at their example and be inspired by it. Right. Um. 2:33:20.640 --> 2:33:24.119 As far as like maybe I don't know, ideologically speaking 2:33:24.360 --> 2:33:28.880 or politically speaking, for these folks, it's uh doesn't fit 2:33:29.040 --> 2:33:33.760 into any sort of ideology leftist or conservative or whatever. 2:33:33.879 --> 2:33:36.240 Everyone's got their own personal politics. But they don't really 2:33:36.280 --> 2:33:38.360 talk about it on the line. What they talk about 2:33:39.000 --> 2:33:43.760 is working class versus ruling class. Um that you know, 2:33:44.000 --> 2:33:48.199 that's their sense. It's corporate greed, it's um asshole. CEO 2:33:48.320 --> 2:33:51.119 is making eleven point six million dollars a year while 2:33:51.160 --> 2:33:54.280 they're struggling to pay their own bills, you know, UM, 2:33:55.040 --> 2:34:00.200 and and you know that conversation is more common than UM. 2:34:01.560 --> 2:34:04.960 Trying to fit this into a larger political movement or 2:34:05.000 --> 2:34:09.280 revolutionary movement, if that makes sense, you know yeah, um, 2:34:09.320 --> 2:34:11.480 But I would say that the vast majority of the workers, 2:34:11.560 --> 2:34:14.800 regardless of their own personal politics, have a very clear 2:34:14.879 --> 2:34:17.519 sense of where they sit in terms of class consciousness 2:34:18.360 --> 2:34:21.840 and understand that this is one of one of the 2:34:22.800 --> 2:34:26.360 most effective tactics to try and force the hand of 2:34:26.440 --> 2:34:30.080 these assholes, you know, UM is to withhold work and 2:34:30.160 --> 2:34:34.240 withhold their labor. So well, this has been great. I 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:36.400 mean that's everything I had to ask Chris anything else 2:34:37.160 --> 2:34:39.840 that I have? So there is there a call to 2:34:39.959 --> 2:34:42.520 action we could have for our listeners or pages people 2:34:42.520 --> 2:34:46.160 should be following strike fund Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a 2:34:46.200 --> 2:34:48.440 go fund me and there's a PayPal set up for 2:34:48.520 --> 2:34:51.240 the Omaha strikers. I believe the b C t g 2:34:51.520 --> 2:34:56.880 M International page has like a page of each of 2:34:56.920 --> 2:34:59.240 the strike funds for each of the four plants. So 2:34:59.440 --> 2:35:01.560 that might be something that you might want to share 2:35:01.640 --> 2:35:03.280 with your listeners. I can send you an email with 2:35:03.400 --> 2:35:07.720 that um, because it's probably going to be easier to do. Um. 2:35:08.280 --> 2:35:11.040 But yeah, as far as I know, bct GM isn't 2:35:11.080 --> 2:35:14.760 called for an official boycott of Kellogg's products. However, they 2:35:14.800 --> 2:35:18.120 wouldn't be mad if you just didn't buy any right now. 2:35:18.640 --> 2:35:20.880 There was some talk last week that some of the 2:35:20.920 --> 2:35:23.880 picketers might you know, be flying outside of grocery stores 2:35:23.959 --> 2:35:26.480 to try and educate the community on what's going on 2:35:26.600 --> 2:35:30.440 with this strike. But beyond that, they also are concerned 2:35:30.440 --> 2:35:33.000 about the quality of the food being produced by scabs, 2:35:33.040 --> 2:35:35.080 So it probably would be healthy for you to not 2:35:36.360 --> 2:35:38.920 by the food, you know, because I think it wasn't 2:35:39.000 --> 2:35:44.480 what two thousand eighteen during the works a lockout in Memphis, 2:35:45.000 --> 2:35:48.360 the same company that they brought in then that they're 2:35:48.400 --> 2:35:52.080 bringing in now, uh piste in the cereal on the line, 2:35:53.000 --> 2:35:56.640 and it didn't release video of that for two years 2:35:57.000 --> 2:36:00.200 after the incident, so it ended up in someone's um, 2:36:00.920 --> 2:36:10.560 you know, gross yikes, yikes, Yeah, I guess, but yeah, 2:36:10.720 --> 2:36:13.920 that's pretty fun right. Um. So yeah, you know, uh, 2:36:14.520 --> 2:36:18.160 support your local strike fund and if you are in 2:36:18.440 --> 2:36:21.160 a city where Kellogg's plant is striking, I'm sure those 2:36:21.200 --> 2:36:26.240 workers would love love to to hear from you fill 2:36:26.280 --> 2:36:31.400 your support. So where and where can our listeners follow you? 2:36:32.760 --> 2:36:36.720 I am on Twitter primarily at cold Brood Tool. I 2:36:36.760 --> 2:36:40.520 don't know why I picked that name, but I like it. Yeah, yeah, 2:36:40.680 --> 2:36:43.400 I got it. I haven't changed that handle since I 2:36:43.440 --> 2:36:47.560 got into Twitter, so um. But yeah, that's usually where 2:36:47.560 --> 2:36:51.320 I'm at. Otherwise, you know, I teach locally and had 2:36:51.360 --> 2:36:54.080 to have a podcast that I'm developing and do a 2:36:54.120 --> 2:36:56.360 bunch of different projects. So Twitter is the best way 2:36:56.360 --> 2:36:59.080 to get a hold of me if you have questions. Awesome, 2:37:00.000 --> 2:37:03.760 all right, thanks for having me on folks, Thanks to us, 2:37:04.480 --> 2:37:06.600 Thanks for thanks for joining us. I'll be back at 2:37:06.640 --> 2:37:08.920 the picket line, you know, talking to these folks, and 2:37:09.240 --> 2:37:11.320 I'm going to do my best to keep this ship 2:37:11.360 --> 2:37:14.080 in the new cycles so that they aren't forgotten. So awesome. 2:37:14.480 --> 2:37:16.000 We've got a link to the strike Fund and some 2:37:16.080 --> 2:37:18.320 other ways to help me in the description. So yeah, 2:37:18.360 --> 2:37:20.360 this has been it could Happen Here pod. Follow us 2:37:20.360 --> 2:37:25.240 on Twitter, Instagram at Happened Here pod, and at cools 2:37:25.280 --> 2:37:40.560 on media for all the rest of our shows. Hey, everybody, 2:37:40.720 --> 2:37:44.080 Robert Evans here your favorite podcast. Are also legally the 2:37:44.240 --> 2:37:47.880 only podcaster that that people are allowed to enjoy on 2:37:47.959 --> 2:37:51.160 the internet here to introduce a really exciting episode of 2:37:51.280 --> 2:37:54.360 it could happen here. So for the last bit of time, 2:37:54.760 --> 2:37:56.160 I've been in and out of touch with a number 2:37:56.160 --> 2:37:58.720 of members of the Puget Sound John Brown Club. They 2:37:58.760 --> 2:38:03.120 have provided armed self defense groups for a couple of 2:38:03.200 --> 2:38:06.520 different protests in the Washington area over the last year 2:38:06.600 --> 2:38:09.440 and change, UM, and we wanted to sit down and 2:38:09.520 --> 2:38:12.720 talk to them about the ideas behind community self defense, 2:38:12.760 --> 2:38:14.960 how to do it responsibly, how to do it irresponsibly. 2:38:15.480 --> 2:38:19.000 We also had some discussions with them about the disasters 2:38:19.120 --> 2:38:22.000 that happened at the Chop Slash Chaz last year. They 2:38:22.040 --> 2:38:24.720 were not involved with that as an organization UM, but 2:38:24.800 --> 2:38:27.400 they have some insights on the matter. UM. That's going 2:38:27.440 --> 2:38:30.000 to be coming at you in a separate episode or 2:38:30.040 --> 2:38:32.200 maybe even a couple of episodes in the near future. 2:38:32.560 --> 2:38:34.800 Today we're just kind of talking about the concepts of 2:38:35.000 --> 2:38:38.840 armed community self defense. You know, what's responsible, what's irresponsible, 2:38:38.879 --> 2:38:41.360 how people should think about it. I think you'll enjoy 2:38:41.520 --> 2:38:44.840 the conversation here. It is a decent chunk of the 2:38:44.840 --> 2:38:48.280 folks listening, especially the Portlanders, will have experience with UH 2:38:48.400 --> 2:38:50.920 and that that Garrison and I have certainly had experienced 2:38:50.959 --> 2:38:55.199 with it is people at protests declaring themselves security, sometimes 2:38:55.280 --> 2:38:59.200 even wearing shirts that say security and uh, picking up 2:38:59.200 --> 2:39:01.879 a variety of what fense, often paintball guns and mace, 2:39:02.120 --> 2:39:07.800 and using them, often irresponsibly on other protesters, on on bystanders, 2:39:08.320 --> 2:39:11.920 in the name of of of keeping things safe. And UM, 2:39:12.480 --> 2:39:14.800 I think we're pretty clear, and I think most reasonable 2:39:14.800 --> 2:39:18.200 people can see that that's not community self defense. But 2:39:18.360 --> 2:39:21.840 often those people certainly claim that what they're doing is 2:39:21.879 --> 2:39:26.520 community self defense. UM. And I'm specifically wanting to start 2:39:26.640 --> 2:39:29.440 by getting a kind of a range of definitions from folks, 2:39:30.080 --> 2:39:32.880 as you are, all people who have engaged in community 2:39:32.959 --> 2:39:37.080 self defense, UM, and particularly armed community self defense. What 2:39:37.200 --> 2:39:41.360 do you see as the actual role of community self 2:39:41.480 --> 2:39:44.280 defense and and how should it look as opposed to, 2:39:44.560 --> 2:39:46.720 you know, a guy with a paintball gun yelling at 2:39:46.800 --> 2:39:50.240 kids for tagging a window. Ray you wanna you want 2:39:50.240 --> 2:39:52.240 to kick us off with an answer there, I do. 2:39:53.440 --> 2:39:57.560 Community defense should be part of the a broad health 2:39:57.640 --> 2:40:01.279 and safety infrastructure set up for or a protest movement 2:40:01.440 --> 2:40:05.720 or a community. Being deliberately vague here, but specifically, armed 2:40:05.879 --> 2:40:11.080 community defense deals with mitigating lethal and egregious harm to 2:40:11.520 --> 2:40:16.000 members of a community. The goal is forced and foremost prevention, 2:40:16.400 --> 2:40:20.920 mitigation and control of those threats. In my mind, ideally 2:40:21.000 --> 2:40:25.400 community defense would involve no one doing anything, carrying around 2:40:25.440 --> 2:40:28.520 a bunch of really heavy ship and nothing happening, but 2:40:28.920 --> 2:40:32.520 deterring those from harming others. In the absolute worst case, 2:40:32.640 --> 2:40:35.040 it means you have to actually do something that can 2:40:35.080 --> 2:40:38.120 get messy pretty quickly. I want to circle back to 2:40:38.160 --> 2:40:39.760 a couple of things. Actually, I do have one one 2:40:39.840 --> 2:40:41.680 quick follow up question for you before we move on 2:40:41.720 --> 2:40:44.879 to the next people. Ray. When you say like carrying 2:40:44.920 --> 2:40:47.640 heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering, what do you think 2:40:48.520 --> 2:40:50.800 I'm interested in you and I'll probably ask other people 2:40:50.840 --> 2:40:52.840 to follow up when it when it comes to carrying 2:40:52.879 --> 2:40:55.680 and bringing a firearm to either a protest situation some 2:40:55.760 --> 2:40:59.240 other community self defense situation. What it is going through 2:40:59.280 --> 2:41:01.560 your head when you do determine what to bring, Because 2:41:01.680 --> 2:41:04.119 I've seen people carry a variety of different guns from 2:41:04.160 --> 2:41:06.520 like shotguns and in one case is of mos and 2:41:06.600 --> 2:41:10.120 negot to a r S or handguns. Um, what do 2:41:10.200 --> 2:41:13.280 you think is kind of the the logic train I 2:41:13.320 --> 2:41:15.320 guess that you would take, Like, what is the appropriate 2:41:15.400 --> 2:41:20.360 tool to bring like in this situation, So that depends 2:41:20.560 --> 2:41:23.280 entirely on what the anticipated threat is and how one 2:41:23.360 --> 2:41:27.680 plans to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no correct answer 2:41:27.760 --> 2:41:31.840 for that. Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal or regious 2:41:31.840 --> 2:41:34.520 bodily harm is not a firearm at all. Indeed, firearms 2:41:34.560 --> 2:41:38.200 are applicable in an extraordinarily narrow range of scenarios, but 2:41:38.320 --> 2:41:42.520 those range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme measures 2:41:42.560 --> 2:41:46.960 to be mitigated. So it depends on what if you 2:41:47.040 --> 2:41:49.880 are considering bringing firem what is the firearm good at 2:41:50.080 --> 2:41:52.480 And then you get into the minutia of what firearm 2:41:52.560 --> 2:41:55.039 is good for what thing, which depends on your legal 2:41:55.120 --> 2:41:58.160 context and particular threat. But I think one has to 2:41:58.240 --> 2:42:00.520 start with the question is is the thing I'm bringing 2:42:00.600 --> 2:42:03.560 able to mitigate the type of harm I might see 2:42:03.600 --> 2:42:06.520 happen to my community? And to get a little bit 2:42:06.600 --> 2:42:10.160 less vague, there are people who think that bringing a 2:42:10.200 --> 2:42:12.240 shotgun is a good way to stop a car speeding 2:42:12.320 --> 2:42:16.360 into a crowd, when it clearly isn't right. So one 2:42:16.440 --> 2:42:18.360 has to make sure that the tool, whatever they have 2:42:18.720 --> 2:42:22.280 is you is appropriate for the task at hand and 2:42:22.400 --> 2:42:26.119 the threat you anticipate. That was great. Thank you, Ray, 2:42:26.320 --> 2:42:28.280 Um Katie you want to you want to give us 2:42:28.280 --> 2:42:31.000 your answer next. I agree with everything that Race said, 2:42:31.280 --> 2:42:34.280 and the only addition that I'd make is that, UM, 2:42:35.000 --> 2:42:38.480 it's specifically in our in our cases generally doesn't mean 2:42:39.680 --> 2:42:45.800 standing between protesters and police, but more guiding protesters, you know, 2:42:45.879 --> 2:42:51.520 our activists or participants away from potential situations of harm. 2:42:53.080 --> 2:42:55.560 It's like, we can't stand in front of police and 2:42:55.879 --> 2:42:59.000 stop cops from doing their job. Like that just gets 2:42:59.040 --> 2:43:03.120 you arrested and uh or worse or worse, and that's 2:43:03.160 --> 2:43:07.000 not what we're here for. So yeah, that's all I 2:43:07.040 --> 2:43:09.720 wanted to could you, because I have chatted with a 2:43:09.760 --> 2:43:12.440 couple of your number about this, about um kind of 2:43:12.520 --> 2:43:15.959 the role that that an armed contingent at a protest 2:43:16.040 --> 2:43:19.320 can play in kind of allowing an avenue of retreat, 2:43:19.760 --> 2:43:23.800 you know, especially during confrontations with non state actors. UM, 2:43:24.920 --> 2:43:27.960 I'm interested in kind of what you um, you know, 2:43:28.080 --> 2:43:31.160 you're not You're not to kind of as you did, 2:43:31.240 --> 2:43:33.520 kind of kind of clarify this conception. You don't see 2:43:33.520 --> 2:43:35.879 your role as standing in front of the protesters between 2:43:35.920 --> 2:43:38.040 them and the cops and like presenting a threat to 2:43:38.120 --> 2:43:41.080 the cops. What is the utility and kind of an 2:43:41.120 --> 2:43:44.040 active protest situation that you've seen of of of what 2:43:44.200 --> 2:43:48.680 y'all do. So that's a good question. And um, if 2:43:48.720 --> 2:43:52.720 we're doing our job well, then most people think we 2:43:52.760 --> 2:43:54.800 don't do anything at all. Um. A lot of what 2:43:54.920 --> 2:43:59.840 we do is we're watching external potential threats to my 2:44:00.120 --> 2:44:02.200 try to come in. The most common factor these days 2:44:02.280 --> 2:44:06.000 is a car um but generally we're looking for folks 2:44:06.080 --> 2:44:08.880 that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're not 2:44:09.000 --> 2:44:11.279 putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get cornered 2:44:11.400 --> 2:44:15.320 or trapped and and really you know, just trying to 2:44:15.440 --> 2:44:19.360 help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers to 2:44:19.560 --> 2:44:22.720 keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way. So 2:44:24.000 --> 2:44:26.920 as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, that 2:44:27.200 --> 2:44:30.080 that ranges from everything from like angry people who are 2:44:30.160 --> 2:44:32.440 just angry and trying to go home and getting blocked 2:44:32.480 --> 2:44:36.400 by a protest too, people who are who are actively 2:44:36.480 --> 2:44:40.000 looking to do harm to a movement that happens to 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:44.280 be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe it's 2:44:44.320 --> 2:44:47.760 something as as as specific as a person who's looking 2:44:47.840 --> 2:44:53.400 to specifically do harm to uh, organizers. So most of 2:44:53.480 --> 2:44:56.879 the time it's we're focused outward and and just making 2:44:56.920 --> 2:44:59.160 sure that our exits are are covered and that we 2:44:59.320 --> 2:45:05.440 have way to get people away from potential bad situations. Um, 2:45:05.640 --> 2:45:08.280 that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon you want to 2:45:08.320 --> 2:45:12.560 give your answer, No, absolutely, thanks. I would add there's 2:45:12.640 --> 2:45:16.160 a really critical element to community defense that begins and 2:45:16.280 --> 2:45:19.440 ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference 2:45:19.520 --> 2:45:23.800 between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being 2:45:23.920 --> 2:45:29.240 there as an intentional community support where the community plays 2:45:29.240 --> 2:45:32.440 a role in you being there and also has some 2:45:32.600 --> 2:45:35.880 influence on that question of what are you carrying and 2:45:36.000 --> 2:45:38.560 what is the response. I think it's just really important 2:45:38.840 --> 2:45:43.600 that you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and 2:45:44.800 --> 2:45:48.520 that's a huge part of our collective work is making 2:45:48.600 --> 2:45:56.519 sure that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves 2:45:56.879 --> 2:46:01.400 with the desires of the community group that has asked 2:46:01.480 --> 2:46:05.119 us to be there, also filtering it through our judgment 2:46:05.240 --> 2:46:09.000 as to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances, using 2:46:09.080 --> 2:46:11.920 some of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were 2:46:11.920 --> 2:46:19.800 answering and UM, what do you see as like like 2:46:20.240 --> 2:46:22.720 this is something that that I kind of gets to 2:46:22.800 --> 2:46:24.480 both what what is an issue with me? And kind 2:46:24.480 --> 2:46:26.840 of the folks who declare themselves a security, which is 2:46:26.879 --> 2:46:29.600 that they're often kind of separating themselves from the rest 2:46:29.640 --> 2:46:32.360 of the movement, specifically in a cop like way to 2:46:32.400 --> 2:46:34.240 say like, well, it's my job to keep you saving, 2:46:34.240 --> 2:46:36.360 even though that means or it's my job to keep 2:46:36.400 --> 2:46:39.199 things order leaven if that means attacking some other people 2:46:39.240 --> 2:46:42.080 at this protest. One of the things that Scott Crowe 2:46:42.760 --> 2:46:45.800 in is uh in Setting Sights, which is a really 2:46:45.840 --> 2:46:50.040 good book on community self defense, does is set out that, um, 2:46:51.480 --> 2:46:54.160 a key aspect of community self defense, as you said, 2:46:54.240 --> 2:46:57.000 is that you're like a member of the community. And 2:46:57.400 --> 2:47:00.440 I think, I guess the question I have is because 2:47:00.560 --> 2:47:02.840 guns are what they are and have the kind of 2:47:02.920 --> 2:47:07.400 cultural weight that they have, it's you people are always 2:47:07.520 --> 2:47:10.640 people who accept being armed as an aspect of their 2:47:10.680 --> 2:47:14.320 personality are always going to be kind of fighting having 2:47:14.440 --> 2:47:19.800 that dominate their personality. And it wouldn't. It's clearly something 2:47:19.920 --> 2:47:22.600 that a lot of people have an issue with. The 2:47:22.720 --> 2:47:25.200 thing that is important is to be a member of 2:47:25.280 --> 2:47:27.960 the community who happens to be armed, as opposed to 2:47:28.760 --> 2:47:32.760 an armed activist whose whose role is being armed right, 2:47:32.920 --> 2:47:35.600 Like I I mean, do you agree with what I'm 2:47:35.600 --> 2:47:37.280 saying or kind of like I'm wondering how you think 2:47:37.320 --> 2:47:38.920 about it, because this is something that I'm kind of 2:47:39.000 --> 2:47:41.640 going around in my head about as well, because it's 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:44.080 it's it's clearly where a lot of the problems happen, 2:47:44.200 --> 2:47:47.320 right that the gun becomes central to the identity of 2:47:47.400 --> 2:47:50.040 the people who bring it, which is something that happens 2:47:50.040 --> 2:47:54.720 to the cops. Yes, and also the mentality of separating 2:47:54.760 --> 2:48:00.400 yourself from the community and not being part of the 2:48:00.480 --> 2:48:03.480 purpose of being there. And so I'll defer to my 2:48:04.200 --> 2:48:07.200 my comrades here to go a little bit further with it, 2:48:07.280 --> 2:48:10.879 but I would just say that there's a significant difference 2:48:11.040 --> 2:48:16.560 between armed community defense and having an intentional presence of 2:48:16.720 --> 2:48:22.320 armed community defense at an event or protest and being 2:48:22.879 --> 2:48:25.520 a person who shows up with a gun. Those are 2:48:25.600 --> 2:48:29.240 two really different things, and so I think that's the 2:48:29.800 --> 2:48:34.520 that's one of the benefits of being part of an 2:48:34.720 --> 2:48:44.800 organization that does this collectively, with accountability, with training, with 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:48.720 a known role in the community, so that there is 2:48:49.959 --> 2:48:53.080 um consistency among what we do and why we do it, 2:48:53.520 --> 2:48:59.200 and history of folks understanding that if we're present somewhere, 2:48:59.240 --> 2:49:02.200 it's because we've been asked to be there, and that 2:49:02.400 --> 2:49:06.840 what we're doing there is aligned with and approved of 2:49:07.160 --> 2:49:10.880 by the people who are organizing the event. And then 2:49:11.200 --> 2:49:13.520 I'll let somebody else who's more eloquent than I am 2:49:14.200 --> 2:49:18.000 uh answered that further if they feel like they can. Yeah, 2:49:18.040 --> 2:49:20.400 I think NOVA is up now. If you wanted to 2:49:20.959 --> 2:49:23.440 give your answer and kind of also comment on what 2:49:23.600 --> 2:49:25.840 we've been chatting about, what Channon and I were just 2:49:25.920 --> 2:49:29.280 chatting about, Nova, Hi, thank you so much. UM. I 2:49:29.400 --> 2:49:32.920 would say that folks like Ray and Katie and of 2:49:33.040 --> 2:49:35.920 course Shannon really put it very sustinctly, very well together 2:49:36.200 --> 2:49:37.840 and answered a lot of the things that I was 2:49:37.879 --> 2:49:40.080 gonna already provided things that I was going to add 2:49:40.160 --> 2:49:44.760 to it. But um, the specifically the part about the 2:49:44.879 --> 2:49:50.240 gun becoming the driving factor in somebody's presence at the protest, 2:49:50.360 --> 2:49:53.920 or the gun being a part of the personality of 2:49:54.080 --> 2:49:57.960 somebody who's going to appoint themselves as a guardian towards 2:49:58.000 --> 2:50:00.880 a bunch of people, I would I would say that 2:50:01.320 --> 2:50:07.000 with any responsible community community defense role within a protest context, 2:50:07.520 --> 2:50:10.760 that the act of being a body in between a 2:50:10.920 --> 2:50:15.360 threat and your community has to come first, and that 2:50:15.480 --> 2:50:20.840 the that the firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh, 2:50:21.200 --> 2:50:24.680 there there was an incident on the night of protest 2:50:24.760 --> 2:50:28.320 where uh many of us were at risk of being 2:50:28.440 --> 2:50:33.120 harmed by a vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a 2:50:33.280 --> 2:50:36.880 firearm would not have mitigated that threat terribly well, but 2:50:37.120 --> 2:50:41.680 the idea of being in between a threat such as 2:50:41.760 --> 2:50:45.560 that and somebody else who is possibly more vulnerable than 2:50:45.640 --> 2:50:49.360 you are bore a lot more of a significance on that. 2:50:49.520 --> 2:50:53.720 So the firearm being there to respond to a threat 2:50:53.760 --> 2:50:57.360 and perhaps mitigate an active, ongoing, deadly threat to your 2:50:57.400 --> 2:51:00.560 community is one thing, But I think the imary thing 2:51:00.720 --> 2:51:04.320 is going to be just putting yourself in harm's way 2:51:04.840 --> 2:51:09.000 so that you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly 2:51:09.040 --> 2:51:11.560 more vulnerable than you. If that makes sense, that should 2:51:11.560 --> 2:51:15.400 be the primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid 2:51:16.400 --> 2:51:20.920 letting that turn people doing that into feeling like a 2:51:21.080 --> 2:51:26.480 separate and even elevated chunk of the community, Because that again, 2:51:26.520 --> 2:51:28.680 that's what happens with police. You know, this idea that 2:51:28.760 --> 2:51:30.400 it starts as like, well, we're here to serve and 2:51:30.480 --> 2:51:34.959 protect um, and that that through a variety of toxic 2:51:35.080 --> 2:51:37.760 alchemies turns into this idea of the thin blue line. 2:51:38.800 --> 2:51:41.120 What is the way you push back on that? How 2:51:41.160 --> 2:51:44.760 do you actually stop it from going from I'm someone 2:51:44.800 --> 2:51:47.760 who is accepting personal responsibility for the well being of 2:51:47.840 --> 2:51:50.440 the people around me um and putting my body in 2:51:50.480 --> 2:51:54.200 between them on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I 2:51:54.560 --> 2:51:57.240 it's my job to protect people, to it's my job 2:51:57.360 --> 2:51:59.800 to you know, from turning that into kind of this 2:52:00.040 --> 2:52:03.760 idea of I think stewardship in some ways that like 2:52:03.879 --> 2:52:06.640 some people in law enforcement have where like you're there, 2:52:06.920 --> 2:52:09.640 they they get to tell you what to do because 2:52:09.680 --> 2:52:12.120 that's their responsibility to keep you safe. Like, how do 2:52:12.200 --> 2:52:15.440 you how do you stop that attitude from evolving? Because 2:52:15.480 --> 2:52:19.480 I've seen it happen to people fairly quickly when they 2:52:19.560 --> 2:52:22.520 put themselves in some of these situations sometimes and it's 2:52:22.520 --> 2:52:25.760 certainly not like most people, but it is. It doesn't 2:52:25.840 --> 2:52:30.600 take a long time for somebody to like especially if 2:52:30.600 --> 2:52:33.000 they're vulnerable, to get in that position. So how do you, 2:52:33.280 --> 2:52:36.200 especially if you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right, 2:52:36.240 --> 2:52:39.840 you're an organization made up of people who come to 2:52:40.000 --> 2:52:42.200 do this, how do you fight back against that? Like? 2:52:42.280 --> 2:52:46.240 What is the active kind of counter programming, if you will, 2:52:48.520 --> 2:52:52.880 I'd see I don't have an easy answer for that question, 2:52:53.320 --> 2:52:55.440 to be completely honest with you, but I say that 2:52:55.520 --> 2:52:58.879 the closest thing uh to an answer to that would 2:52:58.920 --> 2:53:04.200 be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the 2:53:04.440 --> 2:53:08.600 task that was acts asked of you by the group 2:53:08.680 --> 2:53:12.520 that asked you there. Um. So if somebody asked us 2:53:12.560 --> 2:53:15.200 to be a part of a march and to simply 2:53:15.280 --> 2:53:19.360 look outward for external threats and to be willing to 2:53:19.480 --> 2:53:21.880 respond to those threats that need be again putting our 2:53:21.959 --> 2:53:25.000 bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond 2:53:25.080 --> 2:53:30.240 to lethal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. Um, 2:53:31.360 --> 2:53:35.800 I'd say that the ultimate accountability rest with the people 2:53:35.840 --> 2:53:40.960 who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no 2:53:41.160 --> 2:53:44.440 easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like. 2:53:45.600 --> 2:53:48.840 But you know, in several layers, that would start with 2:53:49.600 --> 2:53:52.600 your teammates, the people who are part of your organization 2:53:52.680 --> 2:53:55.280 that asked you to be that is asked to be there. 2:53:55.360 --> 2:53:59.760 So other members of of j B g C are 2:54:00.120 --> 2:54:03.880 you know, definitely going to try and keep each other accountable. 2:54:04.480 --> 2:54:09.520 But it's also the larger the the the the the 2:54:09.640 --> 2:54:12.680 larger contingent of the action that you're a part of. Uh, 2:54:12.840 --> 2:54:17.160 to be ultimately willing to back down from whatever you're 2:54:17.480 --> 2:54:21.800 doing if a concern is voiced by that community. And 2:54:22.760 --> 2:54:27.600 I wish I had a better way to word that, uh, 2:54:28.080 --> 2:54:33.800 But just the the the the constant vigilance within oneself 2:54:33.959 --> 2:54:37.640 against overstepping the boundaries that were clearly set by people 2:54:37.680 --> 2:54:41.600 who invited you into a space. UM. That's really the 2:54:41.680 --> 2:54:43.600 best answer I can get for that at the moment 2:54:44.040 --> 2:54:47.680 without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, for for one thing, 2:54:47.920 --> 2:54:50.600 I think this is the reason we're having this conversation, 2:54:50.840 --> 2:54:52.720 and I'm getting ahead of us a little, is because 2:54:53.560 --> 2:54:56.240 this is still very much a developing thing on the 2:54:56.400 --> 2:54:59.200 left and and I don't think anybody has all the 2:54:59.280 --> 2:55:02.360 answers on how to do it well, although I think 2:55:02.440 --> 2:55:06.840 an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. So 2:55:07.120 --> 2:55:09.400 I think that's part of the reason for the conversation, 2:55:09.560 --> 2:55:12.320 is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do 2:55:12.480 --> 2:55:15.280 this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on 2:55:15.400 --> 2:55:20.280 something important there when you talked about the that you're 2:55:20.320 --> 2:55:23.920 there at the invitation of a community, as opposed to 2:55:24.680 --> 2:55:28.039 you are there too to police or to maintain order. 2:55:28.280 --> 2:55:31.240 Like the idea of approaching it as if you were 2:55:31.320 --> 2:55:34.840 to guest strikes me as a really good idea, UM, 2:55:35.360 --> 2:55:40.800 in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint, 2:55:40.879 --> 2:55:43.640 like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this 2:55:43.760 --> 2:55:46.600 community as their guest, as opposed to I am here 2:55:46.640 --> 2:55:51.960 to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's 2:55:51.959 --> 2:55:54.560 a That's a perfect way to summarize what I was 2:55:54.600 --> 2:55:57.520 trying to go for with that one. I think that 2:55:57.760 --> 2:56:02.240 the ultimately to be averse to being put in a 2:56:02.280 --> 2:56:06.000 position of power or authority is the best way to 2:56:06.160 --> 2:56:11.120 check against that um and to simply be a servant 2:56:11.520 --> 2:56:14.800 to the community that is again inviting you into that 2:56:15.000 --> 2:56:21.560 space and putting yourself in a m servile is not 2:56:21.680 --> 2:56:23.960 the right word. I'm looking for a different word for that, 2:56:24.200 --> 2:56:29.600 but a a position of service, a true position like 2:56:29.760 --> 2:56:34.880 like yes, what what what community defense should be is 2:56:35.000 --> 2:56:38.760 ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward 2:56:39.080 --> 2:56:46.080 of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great, 2:56:46.360 --> 2:56:49.400 I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something 2:56:49.440 --> 2:56:53.080 to say there. Yeah, I'll finish that thought in my 2:56:53.200 --> 2:56:55.800 notes under the section of what happens when things go right. 2:56:56.440 --> 2:56:59.160 I think one thing that can go right is normalizing 2:56:59.600 --> 2:57:03.760 that firearms are just a thing that can be around 2:57:04.040 --> 2:57:06.840 and they don't have to be your entire ass personality, 2:57:07.000 --> 2:57:10.040 nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed, 2:57:10.200 --> 2:57:12.600 I think one of the successes there are not many, 2:57:12.720 --> 2:57:17.320 but of community defense in the Chop was normalizing the 2:57:17.440 --> 2:57:19.640 idea that people can have firearms and they're not an 2:57:19.680 --> 2:57:23.800 inherent threat. UM. Thinking of people who are armed often 2:57:23.879 --> 2:57:26.360 and we're pointed out routinely, and it was like, Nah, 2:57:26.760 --> 2:57:29.800 he's still he's He's a cool dude, you know, just 2:57:29.959 --> 2:57:33.640 a guy, just like the things like, you know, do 2:57:33.680 --> 2:57:35.400 you really think the black guy is going to shoot 2:57:35.480 --> 2:57:37.840 up the top? I don't know that. He's totally fine. 2:57:37.879 --> 2:57:40.600 I know him. His jokes are great. Um a goat 2:57:40.640 --> 2:57:44.240 an overhearing of these kind of conversations, it helps, you know, 2:57:44.360 --> 2:57:46.840 firearms become like part of the tapestry of life, not 2:57:46.959 --> 2:57:50.480 this differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something of 2:57:50.560 --> 2:57:52.840 rape your personality around. It's just like they're there and 2:57:53.080 --> 2:57:55.720 that they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or different. 2:57:56.320 --> 2:57:58.720 And I think that normalizing effect is one of the 2:57:58.840 --> 2:58:01.880 successes community can have and I'm happy to talk about 2:58:01.920 --> 2:58:04.360 other things the community defense can normalize, but I wanted 2:58:04.400 --> 2:58:07.440 to emphasize the you just have a firearm. You're not 2:58:07.520 --> 2:58:09.360 talking about it, you're not touching it, you're not thinking 2:58:09.400 --> 2:58:11.720 about it. You know, people have that. It's just around 2:58:11.879 --> 2:58:14.080 And it became pretty chill, and there was kind of 2:58:14.280 --> 2:58:17.600 the Chop specifically, there's an area where firearms just kind 2:58:17.640 --> 2:58:21.800 of were around and nothing happened really and that was 2:58:21.920 --> 2:58:26.440 kind of wonderful in my mind. So, um, from my 2:58:26.480 --> 2:58:32.440 experience with with the club, Uh, it's basically the even 2:58:32.480 --> 2:58:35.119 though we are the John Brown Gun Club, the guns 2:58:35.560 --> 2:58:40.280 are like the last thing that we even consider. Like 2:58:40.959 --> 2:58:43.280 it would technically if we were to actually rename the club, 2:58:43.320 --> 2:58:46.160 it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. Um, 2:58:46.360 --> 2:58:50.520 we would like most of the time any um, any 2:58:50.640 --> 2:58:52.760 anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the 2:58:52.840 --> 2:58:55.120 Chop and there were some weird stuff going on, like 2:58:55.800 --> 2:59:01.760 Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew, people were um using their 2:59:01.840 --> 2:59:06.280 skills to um to to d escalate situation, to calm 2:59:06.360 --> 2:59:08.880 the calm out, calm down individuals to make sure that 2:59:09.560 --> 2:59:14.560 that whatever hostility they have would be abated through just 2:59:15.080 --> 2:59:19.520 verbal verbal communications talked about that in a little more detail, 2:59:19.560 --> 2:59:20.840 because I don't know who. I mean, I was at 2:59:20.920 --> 2:59:23.040 the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who brother Matthew was, 2:59:23.160 --> 2:59:26.320 or like what incident you're talking about. Something is a 2:59:26.600 --> 2:59:31.000 guy who shows up up here all around the Seattle area. 2:59:31.280 --> 2:59:33.720 And also I think he's even shut up in Portland 2:59:33.760 --> 2:59:37.279 as well. Um got preacher guy, gets in everybody's faces, 2:59:38.000 --> 2:59:42.720 usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um. 2:59:43.040 --> 2:59:47.200 But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who 2:59:47.480 --> 2:59:51.960 drives off a confrontation and uses the Bible as as 2:59:52.040 --> 2:59:57.520 his mode of of operation. But um, I remember distinctly 2:59:57.640 --> 3:00:01.560 at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting 3:00:01.600 --> 3:00:06.199 into it with people. But everybody who was around tried 3:00:06.320 --> 3:00:08.960 to talk him down. They tried to chill make him 3:00:09.040 --> 3:00:13.480 chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention 3:00:13.720 --> 3:00:19.840 and just being weird. But um, but in the end, 3:00:20.000 --> 3:00:23.640 um like that's just like that happens more often with 3:00:24.440 --> 3:00:29.959 protests situations or marked situations or direct action situations where 3:00:30.160 --> 3:00:33.840 we're asked to be a part of it by the organizers. 3:00:34.080 --> 3:00:37.400 And and as um Ray had mentioned, and Nova had 3:00:37.440 --> 3:00:41.880 mentioned um. We like we're asked to be there and 3:00:42.320 --> 3:00:44.200 we're not just asked and then we suddenly show up, 3:00:44.280 --> 3:00:48.119 Like we get involved with the people who are organizing 3:00:48.320 --> 3:00:51.480 any of the partners that they that they that they 3:00:51.800 --> 3:00:54.880 get that they bring into it. We try to learn 3:00:55.640 --> 3:00:58.680 as much about what's going on with them, who are 3:00:58.720 --> 3:01:02.199 the threats, where, where the event is, how the event 3:01:02.360 --> 3:01:04.960 is um going to be thought of. We ask a 3:01:05.040 --> 3:01:07.600 lot of questions about it, Like we plan and plan 3:01:07.760 --> 3:01:10.240 and plan and plan to make sure that everything is 3:01:10.360 --> 3:01:13.640 super safe or as safe as possible based on all 3:01:13.760 --> 3:01:17.040 known variables and uh, and then the stuff that's unknown, 3:01:17.160 --> 3:01:19.840 we do our best to mitigate that somehow. Yes we 3:01:19.959 --> 3:01:23.040 are armed, but that's like the last thing that we 3:01:23.200 --> 3:01:26.560 ever even think of, and that's even in our planning, 3:01:26.720 --> 3:01:30.880 Like we say flat out de escalate first. Um. If 3:01:30.959 --> 3:01:33.720 things start to ratch it up, respond in kind. So 3:01:33.920 --> 3:01:37.120 like if someone you know, like tries to like I 3:01:37.200 --> 3:01:39.800 don't know, like starts to fist fight, We're not going 3:01:39.920 --> 3:01:43.280 to pull out a gun on someone who wants to 3:01:44.000 --> 3:01:47.720 box somebody on the street. We're going to do our 3:01:47.760 --> 3:01:52.720 best to stop so uh, stop them through other means, 3:01:52.800 --> 3:01:56.680 like whether if it's just to block a punch or whatever. 3:01:56.800 --> 3:02:01.080 But the first things and foremost is d escal Asian calm, 3:02:01.280 --> 3:02:05.400 calm that person down and tell them to go away 3:02:05.600 --> 3:02:09.000 or just to chill out or whatever the whatever is necessary. 3:02:10.120 --> 3:02:12.560 I mean de escalation. All of the best community self 3:02:12.600 --> 3:02:16.520 defense that I've personally watched has been de escalation. Um. 3:02:17.080 --> 3:02:20.320 You know, they're They're not the only situations I've seen. 3:02:20.360 --> 3:02:22.480 I've seen force used a couple of times in situations 3:02:22.520 --> 3:02:26.040 that were necessary, but by far, de escalation is the 3:02:26.120 --> 3:02:32.040 thing I've seen, um actually protect people in dicey situations 3:02:32.280 --> 3:02:34.760 the most. Um, And generally that's that's going to be 3:02:34.879 --> 3:02:38.280 the case. Yeah. I know for myself, like my attitude 3:02:38.400 --> 3:02:41.920 is we all go home. Everybody who shows up there 3:02:42.360 --> 3:02:47.480 goes home, not to the hospital, not to jail, or 3:02:47.560 --> 3:02:50.000 not to the morgue. We all go home. Yeah, I 3:02:50.080 --> 3:02:52.440 think that's definitely seems like the best way to look 3:02:52.480 --> 3:02:56.520 at it. So into the specific question of how not 3:02:56.680 --> 3:03:00.440 to become a cop in this position and on the gun, 3:03:02.520 --> 3:03:04.240 the only way I've been able to do anything in 3:03:04.320 --> 3:03:08.280 that regard has been to not have that be my 3:03:08.360 --> 3:03:12.120 primary thing that I fulfilled. I'm part of a community 3:03:12.240 --> 3:03:15.640 and I'm a mechanical person this community. I try to 3:03:16.520 --> 3:03:20.240 have my mission be not that other skill set or 3:03:20.320 --> 3:03:24.160 that other access to being of an aid to a community, 3:03:25.600 --> 3:03:29.360 be my actual purpose in the community, if that makes 3:03:29.400 --> 3:03:36.760 any sense. M Yeah, that makes complete sense. Um and Yeah, 3:03:36.800 --> 3:03:39.760 I think is the healthiest way to to deal with it. 3:03:40.520 --> 3:03:43.480 So something I've been wondering about as so I'm like 3:03:43.800 --> 3:03:47.640 nott armed at all. So I guess I'm on like 3:03:47.720 --> 3:03:50.320 the other the other side of defense, of the sort 3:03:50.360 --> 3:03:53.120 of community self defense. I think that people show up 3:03:53.120 --> 3:03:55.520 to protests, um. And So something I was wondering about 3:03:55.640 --> 3:03:59.320 is is the relationship between this stuff and you know, 3:03:59.400 --> 3:04:02.279 between the sort of hot mentality development and the difficulty 3:04:02.840 --> 3:04:08.759 of sort of integrating to the community, of having organizations 3:04:09.040 --> 3:04:12.920 that are basically independent security groups and not for example, 3:04:13.959 --> 3:04:17.560 like taking like I don't know, take like an historical example, 3:04:18.320 --> 3:04:19.840 like there was a thing in China you'd see a 3:04:19.879 --> 3:04:22.800 lot in like the nine hundreds where you know, you'd 3:04:22.840 --> 3:04:25.200 have armed pickets, right, and so you you you have 3:04:25.280 --> 3:04:27.400 an armed force there, but the armed force is like 3:04:27.560 --> 3:04:29.000 you know, this is this is like a branch of 3:04:29.080 --> 3:04:31.200 the union, right, and that's that's how they sort of 3:04:31.320 --> 3:04:33.880 like like that that was the sort of solution to 3:04:34.200 --> 3:04:36.800 how do you stop cops syndrome is that you know 3:04:36.959 --> 3:04:40.880 they're they're they're basically like a part of another community organization. 3:04:42.160 --> 3:04:47.080 And so I'm I'm curious what you all think about 3:04:48.800 --> 3:04:50.200 what the sort of I guess that the strengths and 3:04:50.240 --> 3:04:55.000 weaknesses of being an independent or having having sort of 3:04:55.080 --> 3:05:02.160 independent security organizations versus having I guess, subsections of other 3:05:02.240 --> 3:05:05.240 organizations that are armed. Yeah, I feel like I can 3:05:05.400 --> 3:05:09.160 offer a unique perspective here as someone who's been privy 3:05:09.240 --> 3:05:14.400 to multiple angles of this, including separate organizations, ones integrated 3:05:14.440 --> 3:05:16.959 with others, and ones that are sort of just parts 3:05:17.040 --> 3:05:22.080 of the community. I don't think there's any like inherent 3:05:22.280 --> 3:05:24.800 sort of best answer here. I do think being part 3:05:24.879 --> 3:05:29.680 of a separate organization makes it harder to be in 3:05:29.760 --> 3:05:33.360 the community versus of the community, meaning you came from 3:05:33.360 --> 3:05:36.279 the community and now you're sort of kind of separate 3:05:36.360 --> 3:05:40.400 but not really UM like JB in particular has a 3:05:40.480 --> 3:05:44.360 perpetual problem with people saying, oh, you know, John Brown 3:05:44.440 --> 3:05:46.920 will do X. And this is something that has been 3:05:46.959 --> 3:05:50.320 discussed and often this is to people's immense fire. I 3:05:50.360 --> 3:05:52.160 don't want to speak for everyone here, but it does 3:05:52.200 --> 3:05:54.920 seem to be that, so seldom does one wish to 3:05:55.000 --> 3:05:58.240 be said, oh, hello, It's kind of like saying, oh, 3:05:58.320 --> 3:06:00.400 the Union will solve this, and it's like, turns out 3:06:00.440 --> 3:06:04.160 you're the Union buddy, um right, and never referred to 3:06:04.200 --> 3:06:06.200 be union in the first person. So I do think 3:06:06.360 --> 3:06:08.920 being embedded into other groups or being sort of this 3:06:09.080 --> 3:06:13.080 loose diffuse group can make it easier to be part 3:06:13.160 --> 3:06:16.680 of the community because of the structural forces that make that, um, 3:06:17.520 --> 3:06:21.119 it is easier to get there. A separate organization can 3:06:21.200 --> 3:06:26.720 help focus and codify certain procedures training, you know, make 3:06:26.760 --> 3:06:29.600 sure that people have some sort of unified goals and values, 3:06:30.360 --> 3:06:32.160 at the expense of making it a bit harder to 3:06:32.240 --> 3:06:36.520 integrate into one's community. I think given the era we're in, 3:06:37.200 --> 3:06:40.240 I'm not surprised we see many many approaches to community 3:06:40.320 --> 3:06:48.520 defense with varying effectiveness at different times, including JBS perspective. Yeah, 3:06:48.680 --> 3:06:54.040 and um, I guess I'm interested as we are as 3:06:54.120 --> 3:06:56.039 we move on here, and like, one of the one 3:06:56.080 --> 3:06:59.840 of the questions I see is how do you the 3:07:00.000 --> 3:07:03.000 difficulty and kind of you don't want to have a 3:07:03.080 --> 3:07:07.960 situation where there's absolutely no where the community self defense 3:07:08.000 --> 3:07:10.400 contention is anyone who shows up with a gun, because 3:07:10.480 --> 3:07:13.040 then anyone can show up with a gun, and you 3:07:13.200 --> 3:07:15.080 as someone else who's showing up with a weapin or 3:07:15.120 --> 3:07:20.920 potentially like if that person uh makes a bad decision, 3:07:21.040 --> 3:07:22.720 that's going to I mean as it as it has 3:07:22.800 --> 3:07:26.080 in the past, that has significant repercussions on everybody else. 3:07:26.200 --> 3:07:29.400 And I that is one of the thorny or points 3:07:29.400 --> 3:07:32.320 because I I do one of the things I see 3:07:32.400 --> 3:07:36.440 is valuable. Someone mentioned earlier, like the nice thing about 3:07:36.480 --> 3:07:39.879 it just in not being firearms being normalized, not as 3:07:39.920 --> 3:07:42.320 a like gun culture thing, but as this is just 3:07:42.480 --> 3:07:45.200 a thing that is present in the community. And I 3:07:45.240 --> 3:07:48.720 saw that a lot in Rojaba, right that everybody was armed, 3:07:49.600 --> 3:07:51.680 or at least the significant chunk of the populace had 3:07:51.680 --> 3:07:54.200 access to arms, but nobody was showing off with them. 3:07:54.240 --> 3:07:57.520 They were not like anybody's like like piece of identity. 3:07:57.600 --> 3:07:59.560 They were just one of the tools like a like 3:07:59.680 --> 3:08:02.240 a like a spade or a shovel that we're present 3:08:02.320 --> 3:08:05.440 in the community. Um okay, I think I've skipped over 3:08:05.480 --> 3:08:08.040 a couple of people. I wanted to give Thud a 3:08:08.160 --> 3:08:11.120 chance to talk. That's actually very much short of in 3:08:11.240 --> 3:08:13.200 line with But the point I was going to make, 3:08:13.240 --> 3:08:17.440 which is, for me, a huge part of community defense 3:08:17.959 --> 3:08:22.600 is making sure that the aspect that is defending the 3:08:22.640 --> 3:08:26.520 community is not alienated from the community because it isn't 3:08:26.800 --> 3:08:30.480 concentrated in just a few people. Because I think one 3:08:30.520 --> 3:08:33.480 of the other things that we emphasize the lots with 3:08:33.560 --> 3:08:38.800 outside of direct protest actions is you try to teach 3:08:39.000 --> 3:08:43.720 people how to safely operate firearms, but also to give 3:08:43.840 --> 3:08:46.800 firearms the respect that they deserve. That farms are not 3:08:46.959 --> 3:08:49.440 there so that you are badass. Firearms are not there 3:08:49.879 --> 3:08:53.160 because you know you're going to get into a gunfight. 3:08:53.240 --> 3:08:54.800 And it's well, the first rule, I mean, one of 3:08:54.840 --> 3:08:57.160 the one of the things that we stress sort of 3:08:57.200 --> 3:09:00.240 beyond the basic four rules of gun safety is the 3:09:00.280 --> 3:09:03.039 first rule of gunpipe is don't get into a gunpipe. 3:09:03.800 --> 3:09:07.000 That it's you know, you want to exhaust every possible 3:09:07.040 --> 3:09:12.440 option that you have. And when the community at large 3:09:13.400 --> 3:09:17.000 is engaged, and like Pray was saying that, it sort 3:09:17.040 --> 3:09:19.200 of it becomes normalized that oh, we're not relying on 3:09:20.080 --> 3:09:23.520 these several people to keep us safe, but that in fact, 3:09:24.480 --> 3:09:28.120 as an entire collective, we're keeping a safe and that 3:09:28.280 --> 3:09:31.760 gives recognition the fact that some people it's not it's 3:09:31.800 --> 3:09:34.640 not the right choice for them to carry again for 3:09:34.720 --> 3:09:38.720 one reason or another. And the at the same time, 3:09:38.840 --> 3:09:45.800 the power that is present in that particular tool is 3:09:45.959 --> 3:09:51.520 dispersed to the point where it doesn't you know, you 3:09:51.640 --> 3:09:57.960 don't have people getting self aggrandizing thoughts because of the 3:09:58.040 --> 3:10:01.039 fact that they're possessing firearps. And I think that's something 3:10:01.120 --> 3:10:04.920 that we, you know, work really hard to instill end 3:10:04.920 --> 3:10:07.040 evil in a variety of context, and I think is 3:10:07.120 --> 3:10:13.720 really critical to this question. So the question trying to summarize, UM, 3:10:14.400 --> 3:10:16.760 what the question was earlier, What the strengths or weaknesses 3:10:16.800 --> 3:10:21.520 of having an organized armed response are UM. One of 3:10:21.600 --> 3:10:25.400 the things that that I wanted to bring up is 3:10:25.520 --> 3:10:30.720 the historical context of armed response, specifically community armed response 3:10:30.800 --> 3:10:34.480 in Seattle. UM. I did some digging and found in 3:10:35.360 --> 3:10:38.720 a book called History of Seattle from the Earliest Settlement 3:10:38.800 --> 3:10:43.600 to the Present Time, Volume two, which I started pouring 3:10:43.680 --> 3:10:47.400 through and found that there was in eighteen seventy four 3:10:48.120 --> 3:10:51.320 there was a group called the Seattle Amateur Rifle Association 3:10:52.000 --> 3:10:55.240 which least land for a range on current present day 3:10:55.280 --> 3:10:58.440 Capitol Hill, UM, like right where the train station is. 3:10:59.040 --> 3:11:01.959 If you're familiar with the yet so like right where 3:11:02.000 --> 3:11:06.080 protests always happened these days. Later on, there's record record 3:11:06.160 --> 3:11:09.840 in eight seventy seven of the Seattle Rifle Team organizing 3:11:09.879 --> 3:11:14.200 and shooting contests. And then later on in eight six, 3:11:14.280 --> 3:11:16.960 which is a number that probably rings the bell, the 3:11:17.080 --> 3:11:20.960 Chinese Riots, as they called them at the time, happened, 3:11:21.160 --> 3:11:23.680 which was sort of the start of the labor movement, 3:11:23.720 --> 3:11:26.720 where everyone decided that Chinese immigrants were the cause of 3:11:26.800 --> 3:11:29.800 all of our woes, that the low wages being paid 3:11:29.879 --> 3:11:33.880 to Chinese immigrants were because of Chinese immigrants and not racism. 3:11:34.440 --> 3:11:38.199 So they decided to run every person who looked Chinese 3:11:38.560 --> 3:11:41.240 out of town. Literally. They referred to this as the 3:11:41.320 --> 3:11:47.200 Tacoma method, and that's what they did in Takemma exactly. 3:11:47.280 --> 3:11:51.040 It started there and there was a February seventh of 3:11:51.120 --> 3:11:56.160 eight six, this massive, angry racist mob tried to push 3:11:56.200 --> 3:11:58.800 all of the Chinese folks out of Seattle or anyone 3:11:58.840 --> 3:12:02.440 they thought might look like Chinese is and they tried 3:12:02.480 --> 3:12:04.880 to push them onto a steamboat, but there weren't there 3:12:04.920 --> 3:12:08.880 wasn't enough room for them all there. Um cops got involved. 3:12:09.040 --> 3:12:11.840 A bunch of other stuff happened they decided no, give 3:12:11.920 --> 3:12:18.600 them time in court. But in the process of making 3:12:18.640 --> 3:12:21.680 this decision, you know, the racist got a mob together 3:12:23.280 --> 3:12:26.600 and we're basically just going to try and put a 3:12:26.680 --> 3:12:30.440 stop to this before the legal proceedings could to go forward. 3:12:31.840 --> 3:12:34.080 So they reached out to local allies and arms. They 3:12:34.120 --> 3:12:36.880 had the Home Guards, which I'm not exactly sure exactly 3:12:36.959 --> 3:12:39.120 what the Home Guards were, but I assume there's something 3:12:39.200 --> 3:12:43.480 related to National Guard later on, or maybe just an 3:12:43.520 --> 3:12:47.640 extension of military, but the Home Guards and the Seattle 3:12:47.800 --> 3:12:52.200 Rifles as well as the University Cadets, which I'm assuming 3:12:52.200 --> 3:12:56.160 are of course soldiers in training, and pulled them all 3:12:56.200 --> 3:13:00.400 out and made a community self defense group out of them. 3:13:00.560 --> 3:13:02.880 They put a rifle line and held the mob back 3:13:03.800 --> 3:13:07.640 and enabled those folks to get you know, safely, to 3:13:07.840 --> 3:13:10.760 have their day in court, um, and then to protect 3:13:10.840 --> 3:13:15.320 them for a while afterward. They actually organized a sort 3:13:15.360 --> 3:13:19.160 of a watch because they didn't have enough police to 3:13:19.440 --> 3:13:22.560 to manage the mob. They use folks from the Seattle 3:13:22.640 --> 3:13:26.320 Rifles and these other groups to uh to sort of 3:13:26.480 --> 3:13:28.800 bolster the police forces and keep peace in the town. 3:13:30.040 --> 3:13:33.120 So the sort of thing that we do is a 3:13:33.200 --> 3:13:36.120 longstanding historical presence but I think there's a lot of 3:13:36.160 --> 3:13:38.760 things you can look at the history of and sort 3:13:38.800 --> 3:13:43.240 of take lessons from so um as as very mentioned, 3:13:43.520 --> 3:13:46.240 a unified response is of course a huge benefit of 3:13:46.360 --> 3:13:51.120 having a huge strength of having an organized armed group. Uh. 3:13:51.200 --> 3:13:53.520 And it's it's literally if someone reaches out and says 3:13:53.600 --> 3:13:57.080 we need help, help is available. Um. But there are 3:13:57.080 --> 3:13:59.920 a lot of weaknesses. Businesses and clubs can be held 3:14:00.080 --> 3:14:04.600 liable legally, and this is an endemic problem within gun 3:14:04.720 --> 3:14:06.720 law as it stands. The laws are written such that 3:14:06.840 --> 3:14:10.840 they effectively there that it comes down to situational context 3:14:11.160 --> 3:14:14.480 to determine how a gun law should be enforced. And 3:14:14.520 --> 3:14:16.160 the law will never be on the side of a 3:14:16.200 --> 3:14:20.160 group trying to abolish parts of the law. So you 3:14:20.280 --> 3:14:24.279 have to be very careful about how you how especially 3:14:24.360 --> 3:14:28.120 an organized or formally organized armed group has to be 3:14:28.320 --> 3:14:32.400 very cheerful about how they put their their worked in 3:14:32.560 --> 3:14:37.840 play with that in mind. Yeah, that was great. I 3:14:38.000 --> 3:14:40.720 was unaware, actually I was aware of the of the riots. 3:14:40.800 --> 3:14:42.480 I was unaware of that part of the history, which 3:14:42.560 --> 3:14:47.960 is fascinating, UM and I think very important. Yeah, Ray, 3:14:48.120 --> 3:14:52.200 did you want to explain the threat onion? Yeah, the 3:14:52.320 --> 3:14:55.960 integrated threat onion. So this is kind of a a 3:14:56.120 --> 3:15:00.520 well known meme in certain circles slash at tool thing, 3:15:01.320 --> 3:15:04.120 and it's designed to help you understand how to like 3:15:04.280 --> 3:15:10.040 mitigate threat and sorry, integrated survivability onion mitigate threats. Right. 3:15:10.560 --> 3:15:13.840 So the teel deer is, you know, do you want 3:15:13.879 --> 3:15:16.560 to try to preserve life by having body armor and 3:15:16.640 --> 3:15:18.640 hoping a bullet hits you in the body armor or 3:15:18.720 --> 3:15:20.400 do you want to preserve life by I don't know, 3:15:20.640 --> 3:15:22.560 not showing the funk up to something where you might 3:15:22.600 --> 3:15:26.280 get shot. And the idea is it's it's a meme 3:15:26.480 --> 3:15:28.960 because so often, you know, people are like, oh, they 3:15:29.000 --> 3:15:30.720 want to get in there and get and get engaged 3:15:30.760 --> 3:15:33.040 with conflict and be the hero. And the answer is, 3:15:33.080 --> 3:15:34.680 you know, you could just like not go there, right, 3:15:34.760 --> 3:15:36.480 and it would probably be a lot easier to do that. 3:15:37.600 --> 3:15:41.240 But there's some real weight to the survivability onion, which 3:15:41.360 --> 3:15:44.600 is like, there are many many ways to mitigate threats 3:15:44.640 --> 3:15:47.760 to yourself in your community, and very often the most 3:15:47.879 --> 3:15:51.960 boring and mundane answer is probably the one that's going 3:15:52.000 --> 3:15:54.320 to actually result in the biggest impact, and the heroic 3:15:54.440 --> 3:15:57.800 answer is probably the absolute worst answer, and only what 3:15:57.920 --> 3:16:00.680 you rely on if everything I'll has gone to hell. 3:16:01.320 --> 3:16:05.200 So that's someone I think it was thund spoken to 3:16:05.920 --> 3:16:09.760 alluded to the threat onion and ways to mitigate harm 3:16:09.879 --> 3:16:12.320 to oneself in one's community, and I had to repeat 3:16:12.400 --> 3:16:16.480 it because it's this this meme that's been coming up forever. Yeah, 3:16:16.560 --> 3:16:19.320 and it is like the basic idea of the threat 3:16:19.360 --> 3:16:22.320 onion is that you have like this again you you 3:16:23.080 --> 3:16:24.560 think of it in layers. That's why they call it 3:16:24.600 --> 3:16:27.920 an onion. Um of like things that protect you, and 3:16:28.240 --> 3:16:30.640 the things that provide the most protection are stuff like 3:16:30.800 --> 3:16:34.959 not being seen or present when somebody wants to harm you, um, 3:16:35.440 --> 3:16:38.320 not or being behind cover when somebody wants to harm you. 3:16:38.400 --> 3:16:40.400 And the thing that offers the least protection is having 3:16:40.480 --> 3:16:44.280 body armor. You know. It's this the idea that like, um, 3:16:44.720 --> 3:16:47.680 the things that people buy and and focus on because 3:16:47.720 --> 3:16:51.560 they look cool, UM are all things that offer less 3:16:51.560 --> 3:16:56.000 protection than situational awareness and good judgment. UM is kind 3:16:56.040 --> 3:16:58.280 of the actual like lesson I think to take out 3:16:58.320 --> 3:17:00.760 of the threat onion. That to be my opinion on 3:17:00.800 --> 3:17:03.240 the matter. This has been it could happen here. That's 3:17:03.240 --> 3:17:06.080 all for this week. Find us at Happen Here pod 3:17:06.320 --> 3:17:08.200 on Instagram. And Twitter, and find the rest of our 3:17:08.240 --> 3:17:22.640 shows at cool zone Media in the same places. Hey, 3:17:22.800 --> 3:17:25.879 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:17:25.920 --> 3:17:28.680 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 3:17:28.680 --> 3:17:31.040 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 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