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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. God Area, Garrison takeover. I

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Speaker 1: asked for some grunting that was like a word, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what it was? I know lots of they could have

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Speaker 1: been here, and openings have become bastards. Openings now just

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Speaker 1: kind of opening. Robert doesn't have more than one type

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Speaker 1: of opening. There's two. There's there's grunting and then yelling

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Speaker 1: something weird that is that's basically the same learning how

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Speaker 1: to do your job is cut shit. Also, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: most of the time, doesn't know which podcast he's doing.

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Speaker 1: Are all what is this are we doing? Is this

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Speaker 1: the daily zeitgeist? Is this is Jack O'Brien, this is

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Speaker 1: this is it could happen here. So we're talking today

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Speaker 1: about the different things that are it um here being

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Speaker 1: the States this time. UM, but we're talking about basically,

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Speaker 1: over the course of the past few months, we have

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Speaker 1: covered a few different topics on the show, UM, some

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Speaker 1: of which have already kind of had some results of

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Speaker 1: had updates to what we've already covered. So we're I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna go through a list of like a

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Speaker 1: three different things that we've covered and talk about kind

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Speaker 1: of the updates in these stories. UM. You know, most

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Speaker 1: of what we've covered around these topics have been like

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Speaker 1: a mix of original reporting and interviews. So now there's

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Speaker 1: been further further work down on this and this we're

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Speaker 1: not kind of update people. If you know, they're not

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Speaker 1: as termally online as us, maybe they have not heard

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Speaker 1: that there's been changes to these stories. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to kind of put together a nice, little concise thing

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Speaker 1: talking about updates to all the things we've covered. UM.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing that we're gonna be talking a

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Speaker 1: bit about is the cops City in Atlanta, and they

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Speaker 1: defend the Atlanta Forest Coalision. So I think like a

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Speaker 1: day after our episode dropped on that, UM, Atlanta City

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Speaker 1: Council voted UH ten to four in favor of getting

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Speaker 1: the militarized police training facility greenlit Um, nicknamed Cops City.

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Speaker 1: There was seventeen hours of public testimony. We're seven seventy

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Speaker 1: of the callers spilk out against the facility. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean that we had that happen in Portland. It doesn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it never matters. It doesn't matter what the vast majority,

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Speaker 1: especially when there's especially when this money involved. Do not

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Speaker 1: do not ever be deceived into thinking that you live

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Speaker 1: in a democracy and that you actually want to matter.

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Speaker 1: Is in any way, shape or form, this is just

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Speaker 1: not This is empirically not true. Like like sixty percent

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Speaker 1: of Texans periods support vaccine mandates in some instances, but

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Speaker 1: the governor just made it illegal to do them. Ever. Um,

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Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's that way across the board, across

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Speaker 1: the nation. Um. People ask sometimes because like you know,

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Speaker 1: when you get into anarchists discussions of politics, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of criticism of democracy. I don't I think democracy

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Speaker 1: is a lovely idea. I would like to try it something.

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Speaker 1: It would be nice to get it ago, it would

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Speaker 1: be nice to experience. So Yeah, this city council voted

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Speaker 1: to least the acres of city owned forest land to

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta Police Foundation UM, at least eighty five acres

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Speaker 1: of which is going to be slated to become the

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Speaker 1: police training facility. UM. The facility is going to cost

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Speaker 1: around ninety million dollars. Jesus Christ, I could train cops

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Speaker 1: much cheaper than that, although training is the wrong word. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is the wrong word for that. UM. So yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: nine million dollars. It's gonna include. It's gonna include a

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Speaker 1: state of the art explosive testing facility, firing ranges, emergency

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Speaker 1: vehicle operations course, a classroom space UM, and an emergency

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Speaker 1: and an emergency proper space. So we'll probably learn to read, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's for teaching people to do bad things. UM.

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Speaker 1: There's going to be an emergency helicopter pad and an

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Speaker 1: entire like mock town. It is good that they have

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Speaker 1: the emergency helicopter pad because cops shoot each other with

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Speaker 1: live ammunition all the time, and that that does happen.

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Speaker 1: It does happen a lot. So yeah. The main backup

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Speaker 1: for this project UM is the Atlanta Police Foundation, which

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Speaker 1: is a political advocacy group that you know, has a

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Speaker 1: lot of funding from corporations and they try to you

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Speaker 1: know sway the political power of the city into giving

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Speaker 1: more power to the police. Um uh huh. So the

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about this though, is like the vote was

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Speaker 1: supposed to happen in AUGUSTUM, but it was rescheduled for

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Speaker 1: early September after there was a lot of public backlash

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Speaker 1: around this proposal. Um. Then the vote that was supposed

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Speaker 1: to happen ont got pushed back the whole day because

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Speaker 1: there was too many callers saying that they didn't want

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Speaker 1: the facility. So the vote got pushed back a day

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Speaker 1: in September, but it stays still voted for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so thirty million dollars is going to be footed by

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Speaker 1: taxpayers and the other sixty million is going to get

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Speaker 1: paid for by the Police Foundation, which has a lot

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Speaker 1: of different like corporate donors. So that's that's that's that's

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Speaker 1: that um. And of course it's on you know, on

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Speaker 1: this forest land, which is like some of the biggest

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Speaker 1: forest land in any major American city. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they're tearing down all this forest to build this concrete

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Speaker 1: city to train cops in. We should also mentioned that

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Speaker 1: at the end of her interview with some of the

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Speaker 1: people resisting this, they basically said like, if the vote

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Speaker 1: goes through, resists is going to continue, so we will continue.

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Speaker 1: There's probably gonna be efforts to like actually try to

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Speaker 1: physically prevent the construction of this. But the next thing

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about is stop line three um,

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Speaker 1: which mean there was also you know, physical efforts to

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Speaker 1: prevent that. But the type of efforts that people usually

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Speaker 1: do in you know, modern green activism usually are a

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Speaker 1: lot more performative or they're specifically to pressure to create

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Speaker 1: means that will try to convince politicians to veto the process.

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Speaker 1: So it's not you know, it's it's it's different from

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Speaker 1: the nineties when it was easier to like actually physically

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Speaker 1: stop the prevention of things. Now a lot of the

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Speaker 1: people who you know are trying to do this, it

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Speaker 1: is they're not convinced that, you know, doing a lock

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Speaker 1: box is going to actually physically prevent it. What it's

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Speaker 1: gonna do is create media coverage that truck that is

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Speaker 1: going to hopefully convince politicians to be like, hey, maybe

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't do this, and that's a hard bargain, right,

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Speaker 1: That's not there's no saying that that's actually going to

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Speaker 1: do the thing. You know, in the in the case

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Speaker 1: of stop Line three that did not stop Line three. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a really good uh um critique of the

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Speaker 1: stop Line three protests posted in It's Going Down by

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Speaker 1: an indigenous anarchist who lives on that land who was

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Speaker 1: like younger, um, and they're you know, watching all of

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Speaker 1: these you know, older indigenous anarchists, you know, keep on

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Speaker 1: getting arrested and brutalized. Like, but we're not actually doing

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Speaker 1: anything in the methods that we're doing that the methods

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Speaker 1: that we're trying to like, you know, gain public support,

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Speaker 1: this isn't working in this specific context. Maybe we should

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Speaker 1: reevaluate what we're actually doing. I know It's going down

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Speaker 1: faced a bit of backlash for posting that critique, but

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Speaker 1: I think that I think the critique is actually worth reading.

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Speaker 1: Any any other thoughts on the Atlanta thing before we

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Speaker 1: move on to the stop line three stuff, um, No,

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Speaker 1: no other than to note that I think the best

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Speaker 1: brisket I've ever had came from Atlanta. Okay, well, I'll

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Speaker 1: probably I'll probably visiting Atlanta in the near future, maybe

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Speaker 1: there with you, um, in which case I'll get some

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Speaker 1: more motherfucking brisket. Yeah, it was actually the fun story.

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Speaker 1: We were road tripping through town, me and in another

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Speaker 1: friend in another car, and we were talking over radios

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Speaker 1: and a trucker got on like the channel we were

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Speaker 1: on because we were talking about where to get barbecue,

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Speaker 1: and he told us where to go. Um, it was neat.

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Speaker 1: It was like an actual nice like like moment of

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Speaker 1: CB radio connection. Like this guy was just scanning the

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Speaker 1: waves and found us and I was like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you where to go anyway, continue Garrison. That

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Speaker 1: was completely unrelated to stopping line three. So the next

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Speaker 1: thing is earlier, I think in September, maybe August if

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Speaker 1: it's been a while. H we we we posted two

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Speaker 1: episodes about me visiting the top Plane three protests and

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Speaker 1: the Earth First camp, and a lot of stuff has

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Speaker 1: happened since then. Um, so you know, the main you

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Speaker 1: know thing is that the pipe planet has been finished

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Speaker 1: now um and is basically getting is ready to be operated,

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Speaker 1: or it probably already has some operation. It's unclear how

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Speaker 1: much is being used right now, but it is done construction.

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Speaker 1: It doubles the capacity of the original pipeline. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be doing like a seven hundred and sixty thousand barrels

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Speaker 1: of oil a day, so in the e carves outland

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Speaker 1: through through wet lands where people grow wild rice and

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Speaker 1: do hunting. Um So, overall the past few months police

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Speaker 1: arrested over nine hundred people, and it's there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of like felony charges specifically for locking down, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty new because they're using felony theft charges for

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Speaker 1: people just locking down to equipment. Yeah, that is an

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Speaker 1: unfortunate escalation. Yeah. Um So by the time we posted

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Speaker 1: our top line three episodes, we kind of already figured

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Speaker 1: this was going to be the result that That's kind

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Speaker 1: of how he ended the episode saying there's been all

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Speaker 1: this resistance, but probably it's going to get built, and

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Speaker 1: you know, there's other things that we can learn from

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Speaker 1: this movement going on into the future. Um But the

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Speaker 1: new developments that have happened, um I. I did mention

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Speaker 1: in the episodes how much Enbridge was directly paying cops.

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Speaker 1: That was something we already knew that what was happening,

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Speaker 1: But there was an article by The Guardian that really

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Speaker 1: gave a lot of new information around how much police

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Speaker 1: involvement there is with like with Enbridge, Like they are

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Speaker 1: actually coordinating a lot. So overall, Uh, Enbridge has reimbursed

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Speaker 1: US police almost two and a half million dollars for

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Speaker 1: arresting and surveying protesters. UM, also paying for like food,

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Speaker 1: lodging gas. It's like it's they're not not just not

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Speaker 1: not just paying wages, they're paying like for extra stuff

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Speaker 1: as well. So at least at least two and a

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Speaker 1: half million dollars that's been paid from the Canadian oil

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Speaker 1: company um, you know, including that includes officer officer training, UH,

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Speaker 1: police patrol routes, surveillance, all this kind of stuff. UM.

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Speaker 1: The one one interesting thing that was noted in the

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Speaker 1: article is that the company at Enbridge meets daily with

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Speaker 1: police officers to discuss intelligence gathering and patrols um. And

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Speaker 1: when and when Enbridge wants protesters removed, it directly calls

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Speaker 1: or sends letters to police, so they they actually like

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Speaker 1: coordinate when to actually get police involved during protests, and

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Speaker 1: they have at least daily information meetings. The one other

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Speaker 1: interesting thing besides just directly paying them for food for

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Speaker 1: you know, training, equipment and the coordination between end Bridge

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Speaker 1: and people being on the ground, is um how much

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Speaker 1: that the Enbridge paid for uh like proactive safety patrols

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Speaker 1: and specific like specific officer surveillance following alleged activists like home,

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Speaker 1: so they would like trail specific cars for a long

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Speaker 1: time and try to like do like in person surveillance

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Speaker 1: on specific people they thought were activists. And all of

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Speaker 1: this time was paid for by end Bridge and was

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Speaker 1: being coordinated with Bridge. So it's not just you know,

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Speaker 1: paying for training, it's not just for paying for equipment.

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Speaker 1: It's specific surveillance of certain people. And that is I

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Speaker 1: don't know, that's something that we weren't We did not

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Speaker 1: really know the depths of that for sure, but it's

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Speaker 1: pretty it's pretty messed up. I know. We we suspected

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Speaker 1: some of this coordination before, like when we talked about

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Speaker 1: police showing up to the Stop Line three camp and

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Speaker 1: blocking off access to the road. Um, this was at

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Speaker 1: the same day that drilling under the river was just

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Speaker 1: being finished, and we so we suspected like, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: like Embridges obviously talking with police to prevent people from

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Speaker 1: leaving so that they can they can finish up this

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Speaker 1: specific drilling project that was that was pretty obvious to

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Speaker 1: us at the scene. Um, And now we have you know,

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Speaker 1: extra confirmation that yeah, they do like meet daily to

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Speaker 1: coordinate these types of things. Um, so it's good to

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Speaker 1: have that extrame confirmation of the stuff we already like

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Speaker 1: suspected and stuff we already kind of like put together

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Speaker 1: through experience. But now we have like, you know, court

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Speaker 1: documents and records showing the extent of the coordination. All right,

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Speaker 1: well we'll talk about terrorism, but you know who else

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Speaker 1: is a terrorist? Oh boy? The products and services that

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Speaker 1: support this podcast are all right in a good way,

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Speaker 1: you know, like um, you know, like uh like a

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Speaker 1: kind of alright, well, it's it's complicated, all right, Do

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Speaker 1: ads just run ads stuff? Oh so it will probably

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Speaker 1: funnier if you bleep out the name of the terrorist organization.

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Speaker 1: This is how we this is how we pick up

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Speaker 1: from the ad brancast. You say that. So, um, Garrison,

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Speaker 1: we got some some critiques that came in to the

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Speaker 1: old news line, by which I mean people deemed me

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Speaker 1: on redditch. Yeah. I never respond, Um, I almost never respond.

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Speaker 1: It's nothing against people. I just don't like being communicated with. Um.

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Speaker 1: But too many, too many people ask me to send

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Speaker 1: messages to you and like, yeah, Garrison, you're not I'm

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Speaker 1: not like, that's not what I'm ricks And welcome to

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Speaker 1: the last three years of my life. Uh yeah, anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but that's funny, Sophie. Ah. Um. There were

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Speaker 1: people who were like, hey, I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: know this, but Earth First has a problematic history with

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Speaker 1: like eco fascism and that sort of stuff. Just like

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Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, and it's it's one of those things.

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Speaker 1: They definitely are an organization that has said things in

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Speaker 1: the past that I don't agree with. There's been specific

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Speaker 1: people who do organizing with them that don't have great

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Speaker 1: beliefs specifically around like you know, a lot of like

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Speaker 1: in the old Green movements has been you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of like transphobia, some like racism. Um. It's it's

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Speaker 1: not because they're the green movements. Like all left spaces

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Speaker 1: deal with versions of variety stuff, you know, not like

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Speaker 1: respecting like indigenous people. Um. You know that that's been

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Speaker 1: that's been a thing. Um. But the specific term eco

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Speaker 1: fascism I believe is incorrect um because they don't advocate

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Speaker 1: for the genocide of a specific group um. And they

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Speaker 1: don't have like far right populist policies. So like you

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Speaker 1: can have bad opinions and bad ideas and you can

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Speaker 1: actually be racist without actually being fascist, especially eco fascist. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like people throw that word around a

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Speaker 1: lot and they don't actually know what it means. Um,

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Speaker 1: But what were you specifically referring to, Robert Um. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to find the message here. But because I got

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Speaker 1: a message saying that Earth First is bad because they're

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Speaker 1: anti natalists, that means they're fascist, which isn't definitely got that,

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Speaker 1: which isn't actually like I'm just going to disagree with

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Speaker 1: that because I don't think anti natalism equits fascism, especially

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Speaker 1: antien natalism. For like, antenatalism is basically saying, don't don't

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Speaker 1: make people, maybe we should maybe we should stop having

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Speaker 1: more kids right now because you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems to deal with and maybe we shouldn't be having like,

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Speaker 1: you know, three kids, which is it's not a take.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an anti natalist. I don't actually disagree with

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Speaker 1: that take though, but I think it's more in the

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Speaker 1: line of, like, the most fundamental of all human desires

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Speaker 1: for the majority of the population is to make more people,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of why I like anti natalism, because

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Speaker 1: it has that thing that's opposite to one of a

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Speaker 1: lot of humans natural reaction and like, no one's forcing

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Speaker 1: anti natalists, don't want to force you to be anti natalist.

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Speaker 1: Bring up this as an idea, Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's a valuable idea to discuss. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's I don't think you're I don't think you're embracing

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Speaker 1: like the massacre of human beings or Genesis. The way

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Speaker 1: by saying like, I think it'd be best if we

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Speaker 1: didn't make anymore not planning a arguable point. I'm not

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Speaker 1: planning to have any kids because I don't see why it,

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Speaker 1: especially when there's so many like children that can be adopted. Garrison,

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Speaker 1: we talked about you having kids so we could experiment

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Speaker 1: with making them blue. This is a separate conversation that

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about involving. We are not talking about

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Speaker 1: this on the plot. Will just include that tantalizing hint.

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Speaker 1: I also just think in general, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: a group that's had a long history and a specific

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Speaker 1: thing they're doing in the present, yeah, this has happened

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Speaker 1: in another situation, whe people like, well, you know they

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Speaker 1: did this or some one of them said this. And

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of things I feel about that. For

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Speaker 1: one thing, it's it's like it's entirely possible that the

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Speaker 1: people doing the thing in the present day have nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the people twenty years ago. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: most of the people out there First Gathering Gathering were

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Speaker 1: like in their twenties and around my age, Like they

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Speaker 1: weren't in the they weren't in Earth First Night, Like

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Speaker 1: that's not like so I feel like silly about kind

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Speaker 1: of making them be held accountable for something somebody else

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Speaker 1: said under a similar banner decades ago. And on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: I talked about how like people on the Earth First

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Speaker 1: Earth First Gathering like talked about this stuff, like the

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Speaker 1: people talked about Earth First like history and how they

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Speaker 1: haven't handled some issues very well. There was a lot

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Speaker 1: there was a massive effort for this gathering to like

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Speaker 1: um to like uplift and make sure everyone focuses on

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Speaker 1: indigenous voices, like they invited over multiple indigenous groups to

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Speaker 1: give talks on green resistance and like land back like that.

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Speaker 1: That was a big focus of like making sure that

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Speaker 1: this actually is something that has hurt because people know,

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Speaker 1: like this is, yeah, this is something important, this is

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Speaker 1: something that actually should be done, and there are I

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Speaker 1: think in general, and we talk about like holding organizations

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Speaker 1: and individuals accountable for their past. Um, what matters is

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Speaker 1: like a mix of what they did and what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: So obviously, if Earth First had been saying twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: we need to wipe out all the Jews, I would

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Speaker 1: be like, I wouldn't care what they were saying. Now,

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Speaker 1: you know, it would be like, yeah, you can't really

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Speaker 1: come back from that. If you want to do a

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Speaker 1: completely different thing, it needs to be a new organization.

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Speaker 1: But they weren't. And I'm not saying that where I'm

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Speaker 1: just making an example, but like, as a rule, I

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Speaker 1: think we should embrace the fact that organizations and people

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Speaker 1: can change throughout time and be better than they were

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Speaker 1: in the past, um and and learn from mistakes and flaws.

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Speaker 1: And I feel pretty unwilling to condemn individuals or organizations

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Speaker 1: for the mistakes of their past, although that is dependent

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Speaker 1: upon the kind of mistake and the harm that it cost. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and like and how they address it in the futures,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of these Yeah, because like it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like the First as an overall organization of specific people

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Speaker 1: they were affiliated with, like you know, specifically UM like

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Speaker 1: UM Edward Abbey has said some not great things around

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Speaker 1: different different different social issues, and his books were extremely

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Speaker 1: influential on the beginning of green resistance. But that's something

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Speaker 1: people talk about now, Like that's something that is like

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Speaker 1: discussed and debated. Um and he was and he was

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Speaker 1: like even in the eighties and nineties, he was like

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Speaker 1: kicked out of Earth First gatherings for kind of being

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Speaker 1: a loser, like for for having these bad views. Were like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we probably shouldn't have you here anymore. Leave go away.

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Speaker 1: So like that was something that was even talked about

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Speaker 1: back like back then as well. That is that isn't

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Speaker 1: just a modern thing. Yeah, and I think in general,

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Speaker 1: number there's a couple of things. Number One, whenever we

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Speaker 1: talk about like an organization in a specific context they're

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Speaker 1: doing this, that doesn't mean we're embracing everything they've done.

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Speaker 1: And number two, whenever we talk about the history of

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Speaker 1: of of of a movement or a group, I hope

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Speaker 1: nobody ever takes that as like, here is the authoritative

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Speaker 1: stance on the history of this thing. Like it's when

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Speaker 1: we talked about the Black Panthers. There's a bunch of

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Speaker 1: stuff we left out that's very important. Um My hope

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Speaker 1: with those episodes, and I hope with anything we do

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Speaker 1: is that it like inspires people to want to learn

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Speaker 1: more and read more, and we're giving them a basis

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Speaker 1: of understanding that they can use to expand their knowledge

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Speaker 1: on an important topic. So please, we are we are.

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Speaker 1: There's like one thing, uh collectively that that Garrison and

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Speaker 1: I have any kind of expertise on, and uh, outside

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Speaker 1: of that, you should not take anything we say as like,

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Speaker 1: here's the comprehensive history of of this because it's I

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Speaker 1: I understand one thing, and it's it's how the internet

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Speaker 1: makes people shitty. Yeah, so yeah, um yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that that was something that this whole It was something

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Speaker 1: I thought about when writing these episodes is how much

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Speaker 1: to include of this stuff? And I did not feel

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Speaker 1: like it was super important to discuss this stuff because

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Speaker 1: it wasn't relevant to the topic of stop lines. I

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Speaker 1: think you didn't something relevant to the topic of like

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Speaker 1: the current ongoing green resistance. If we want to do

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Speaker 1: like a history of green activism, then yes, this is

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Speaker 1: something that that would be that. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: like at some point we probably should do absolutely about

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Speaker 1: just like mirror and like all of that ship. But

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Speaker 1: like that there's a kind of stuff we want to

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Speaker 1: talk about that we haven't yet because it's a daily

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Speaker 1: show and my God, give us some fucking time. People

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Speaker 1: speaking of Edward Abbey, you know what, huh sells quality

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Speaker 1: monkey wrenches. Okay, alright, that's fine. The maybe one of

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Speaker 1: our sponsors. It's I hope so as hardware. It's hardware.

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Speaker 1: As hardware sponsoring us, they do sell. You can get

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Speaker 1: some good monkey wrenches from Ace Hardware quality for fixing

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Speaker 1: your faucet, for fixing your faucet. So go get wrench

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Speaker 1: pilled and then listen to the rest of the show.

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Speaker 1: Well we're back. We just had a good discussion about

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Speaker 1: what we're gonna talk about, and we realized that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't after the ad break, So here we are. Um.

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Speaker 1: In in early September, we had an episodes about both

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Speaker 1: California's climate and the ongoing recall election against Gavin Newsom.

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Speaker 1: So a few days after our episodes dropped, the things

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Speaker 1: like the day the day the second one dropped was

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Speaker 1: was election day. Um we we we got the results

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Speaker 1: in faster than what I was expecting. Um and Uh

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Speaker 1: Newsome did handily beat uh Larry Elder with like yeah,

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Speaker 1: so people people voted sixty one no and liket yes.

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Speaker 1: Uh so he Knewsome did a decent job and pushing

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Speaker 1: off elder Um. So this, this, this whole recall processed

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Speaker 1: costed California taxpayers two hundred and seventy six million dollars.

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Speaker 1: It's not like we needed the money for anything else. Garrison.

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Speaker 1: Come on, Yeah, so you know a few takeaways. We're

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Speaker 1: going to spend it on fighters literally anything else. Water

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Speaker 1: giving California needs water and firefighters. Garrison coming giving houses

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Speaker 1: to people who need houses. I don't know. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so takeaways from this, The recall process still should absolutely

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Speaker 1: be invented. Yeah, it should require should require more than

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Speaker 1: twelve signatures at the last voter turnout. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: government should be requiring to get to if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be elected in the government, you should be

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Speaker 1: required to get a majority of votes. Um. Not not

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Speaker 1: not just a plurality of a specific you know sect.

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Speaker 1: So there's the whole we we we we talked about

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Speaker 1: the specific reasons why it was bad in those episodes.

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Speaker 1: Those are still those are still like, those are still valid,

429
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: those are still relevant because there's still the same issues. Yeah,

430
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 1: and none of the fact that this turned out well

431
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: had anything to do with the Democratic Party who very

432
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: nearly bungled it. And it and it doesn't it doesn't

433
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: really impact. It doesn't impact you know, the Californias climate

434
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: issues so much. And like just because new Sims in

435
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: office doesn't mean they're going to get much better. You know,

436
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: there's still things that he needs to be pushed on

437
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: to to you know, make the climate a little bit

438
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: more habitable. In the meantime, it it means that we

439
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: will continue stumbling towards a cliff. Rather than speak so

440
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: generally what voting for Democrats means, I will say, it's

441
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 1: interesting to me that it doesn't seem like you can

442
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: get the vote was rigged thing to work unless the

443
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: election is like kind of this is the next thing

444
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about. Um, Yeah, because because

445
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: like in the week before the election, the Fox News

446
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: Republican Party and Larry Elder and even Trump, We're really

447
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: starting to ramp up this idea that if Elder loses,

448
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: that means the election was rigged. Uh. This was like

449
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: they were really pushing this hard and you know, spreading

450
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: like they were giving links to a website like before

451
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: he lost even to be like, if you know, when

452
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: I lose, use this website. I was like, okay, that's okay,

453
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: that's weird. Um. But on the night of the election,

454
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: Elders seems to kind of claim climb down from the

455
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: inflammatory like rhetoric around the election. In his concession speech,

456
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: he told supporters, let's be gracious and defeat um. So

457
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: he once the actual results were in, he really climbed

458
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: that down. So we can read into that. The other

459
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: thing I want us to read into here is that

460
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: could this could this rhetoric around if we lose, that

461
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: means it was rigged? Could that disenfranchise Republican voters from

462
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: even showing up if they believe that all elections will

463
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: be stolen from them? Well that being that they'll be

464
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: less Republican turn out if there's just if they think

465
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter. So that's the other side of things,

466
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: Like I'm not sure if if if the other side

467
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: effects that this that this rhetoric could have. Yeah, there's

468
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: an interesting So during during the last election like national

469
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: election cycle, there is one trement to use people who

470
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: weren't voting in Florida, And I thought it was really

471
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: interesting because there were there were several people they talked

472
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: to who we're like, yeah, I don't vote because last

473
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: time I voted was two thousands and they stole the election,

474
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: which was literally which which yeah, and and you know

475
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: i'd say that, yeah, Like I think it is slightly

476
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: different when like two thousands, when actually like literally but

477
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: there was there was the bricks like there there there

478
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: Roger er Stone, Yeah, Roger Stone led a riot to

479
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: stop like the votes from being counted, like whatever, weird Bush.

480
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: I think people people got like like a bunch of

481
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: people with like vaguely black names got like their names

482
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: struck off the like the voting roles. Like there was

483
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: a lot of yeah, but yeah, And I don't I

484
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: don't know if it'll if it if the effect can

485
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: work that strongly when it's like completely bullshit which was,

486
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: I think it's yeah, interesting, I don't know. It's it's

487
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: hard to say because it's it's it's unclear whether the

488
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: voter turnout on the because like you know, there were

489
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: times where they were pulling like fifty fifty between between

490
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: between newsm an Elder, and it's unclear. I think definitely

491
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: the big advertising push that corporate donors gave to Newsom

492
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: in the month before the election did help get Democratic

493
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: voter turnout, you know, like people voting for new getting

494
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: people scared about the governor. That not was not ineffective,

495
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: that that very much works. That did increase turn out there,

496
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: But I don't know because like with the whole election

497
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: being stolen rhetoric, that could both increase Republican voter turnout

498
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: and there's also the side effect now where maybe it

499
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: could decrease it because they're just disenfranchised about this concept.

500
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: But this is kind of just speculation at this point.

501
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: I don't have actual data backing up this claim right now.

502
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: This is just something that I thought about while running

503
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: this right up, I'm like, huh, I wonder if this

504
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: could be a contributing factor in the future. People really

505
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: I feel like they're always gonna lose. Maybe they just

506
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: not not even are going to bother um. But it's

507
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: hard to say. It's like, you know, the main reason

508
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: why Elder lost wasn't due to newsome strength. That was

509
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: because Elder is like, it's completely like he it was

510
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: like it was the most yeah, like widely unqualified and

511
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: like one of the more extreme candidates like running and yes,

512
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: he did get a lot of support among Republicans, but

513
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: among moderates and people you know, left of center in

514
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: terms of like an American spectrum. Uh, they're like, yeah, no,

515
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: this is gonna be a disaster if he gets elected.

516
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: And that's the main reason why he didn't. Um, it's

517
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: not due to Newsom being great. But I mean, Sophie

518
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: did mention a few things that Newsom has done since then.

519
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: Um so do do do do you want to say

520
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: the specific details just so I don't have to look

521
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: famously a big Newsome fans So yeah, not come on.

522
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: Uh so not to give news some credit because this

523
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: is like an obvious right thing to do situation. But um,

524
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: at the beginning of October, the Senate Bill seven was

525
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: signed into law. It was an unanimous vote and Newsom

526
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: signed off on it to give back Bruce's speech, which

527
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: was owned by a black family, Willa and Charles Bruce,

528
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: back in their land was illegally taken away from them.

529
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: It's a beach front plot in Manhattan Beach. And I

530
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: signed into a lot of give it back. Uh that

531
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: is I mean, yeah, yeah, more of that should be done.

532
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: I mean that it is kind of the basis of like,

533
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, that is one side of land back, is

534
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: just giving land back to people who used to have it. Yeah,

535
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: of course this is this isn't tied to indigenous stuff.

536
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: But you know, I've seen people make that same comparison

537
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: for like, yeah, we should just be doing this more

538
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: in general to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, that's

539
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: a I'm glad that that was done. It's also now

540
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: illegal to remove a condom without consett in California, which

541
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: is wait what Yeah, you're going to have to change

542
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: a lot of things about how you have sex with Californians. Yeah,

543
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: during intercourse, that's the it's the first state to do that,

544
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: first of all. Huh. Yeah, and it's wild because under

545
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: any reasonable definition, that's rape. Yeah yeah, it's just rap. Yeah,

546
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: it's absolutely rape. California also now requires menstral products in

547
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: public schools, so that's a bare minimum. And that I

548
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: didn't realize that it happened. Yea. And I want to

549
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: be clear here, I'm not giving you some credit for this,

550
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: but if he had lost the recall ellection, none of

551
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: this would be happening. No, it's nice that he I'm

552
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: sure some of this was him. Kind of providing a

553
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: sop to the people who lined up to stop the recall,

554
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: and those are good things that were done. Yeah, And

555
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: I think I think that's sort of an important thing

556
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: to understand about when politicians occasionally do good things. It's

557
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: like they don't do good things because they want to

558
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: do them. They they they do things that benefit from

559
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: you because they're either in some ways scared of you,

560
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: or it's because they need to buy they buy you off,

561
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: and and that that is, you know, that is that

562
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: is a legitimate way that good things happen. Like, I've

563
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: got a couple other Uh, there's been a lot signed

564
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: in recently, So I got a couple of other ones

565
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: that I that I think are relevant to our show.

566
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: California will not streamline extend assisted death law, So that's

567
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: that's good. That reduces the time until terminal patients can

568
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 1: choose to be given fatal drugs. So starting January one,

569
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: the waiting period required time a patient makes separate oral

570
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: request for medication would drop to forty down from the

571
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: current minimum fifteen days. That is pretty rad Yeah, I mean,

572
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 1: there's just there's there's a I mean, we'll see if

573
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: it's it's hard a lot, there's a lot. It's it's hard,

574
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: it's hard to be like worse than Larry Elder. Yeah,

575
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: that's this one definitely would not get get through for California.

576
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: California Acts, a lot of strip badges from bad officers,

577
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: like very vaguely written, is very vague. But yeah, well

578
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens to Like, No, none of the

579
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: stuff would have happened under a larial thing. And I

580
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: am surprised at like surprised that some of those things

581
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: actually got through because I'm I'm surprised that democratic politicians

582
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: would actually vote for those things we put office. That's

583
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: why I was like basicallyasically like the condom thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

584
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: And I was not expecting that to go through some

585
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: science legislation to extend to go cocktails. Wait, all right,

586
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: that's sure, Okay, more where am I to cocktail heads? Sorry? Alright,

587
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: So at least larryl there's not in office. There's still

588
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: a lot of climate issues and maybe this rhetoric around

589
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: stealing the elections not gonna work every single time they

590
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: do it. Um, that's kind of the main that's the

591
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: main things that I was going to talk about, and

592
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: it is it is. I mean, one of the things

593
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: that people are talking about in a lot of the

594
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: spaces I generally agree with is like the foolishness of

595
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: voting as harm reduction. And there's been a lot of

596
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: if you want to believe that it isn't, there's been

597
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: a lot of information coming up from the Biden in

598
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: a the Ministry ation that will support that belief. Um.

599
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: But what we're saying right now in California's group that

600
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: can be like the these are not none of this

601
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: is going to fundamentally change the major problems that are

602
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,239
Speaker 1: confronting us. But but a bunch of those things are

603
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: going to, Like life's going to be easier for some

604
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: little girls whose families don't have much money. You know,

605
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: life got easier for that one family who got their

606
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: land back. Um, you know, potentially it's going to be

607
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: easier to get bad police officer or to get particularly

608
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: bad police officers off the street. And that's not that's

609
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: not nothing like when we say voting can be and

610
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it usually is, but when we

611
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: it can reduce harm, that's what it means. It means

612
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: that like oh, some bad things that that would be

613
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: worse are not as bad because of this, not that

614
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: everything is better, A lot of stuff will be the

615
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: same and is the same in California, like ecologically, nothing

616
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: logically fundically fundamentally changed, but some ships a little easier

617
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: for certain groups of people as some stuff and specific specifically,

618
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: I think the getting getting more like contraceptive products and

619
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: menstrual products inside public schools is one of the literally

620
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: the best things we can do, like like for the

621
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: whole country. It is like something that if that was

622
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: required in every public school, that would make so many

623
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: people's lives better a ridiculous degree significantly reduces harm in

624
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: a specific way. And I think that just because like, yeah,

625
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not going to stop us all from

626
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: burning up, um, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

627
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: So those those are the three stories that I wanted

628
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: to give some updates for, um because I know, you know,

629
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: there were changes happened, you know, very soon after posting

630
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: those episodes. UM. I still think the California ones are

631
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: worth listening to because they do lay out a lot

632
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: of stuff around around California's climate, UM and the specific

633
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: weird stuff that it has with its specific weird things

634
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: that has with its election process. Um, I think the

635
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: line three episodes are going to be pretty good to

636
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: go back to as well. Um, and then uh, I

637
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: at the the specific Cop City thing in Atlanta, that

638
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: is the stuff that I am. It's gonna be the

639
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: most like ongoing thing stills because that's going to be

640
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: an ongoing project. So I'm sure we'll come back to

641
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: the Cops City at different points throughout the next few months.

642
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: So that that that that that's the updates. Um. Any

643
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: any any closing notes from either Christopher, Robert or Sophie. Yeah,

644
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: just just I do well excuse me, okay, sorright Sophie. Sorry,

645
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: just I just just remind him we've said this earlier

646
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: in the episode that like we're just giving you brief

647
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: brief sniffets about this stuff. There's a lot there's a

648
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: lot of really good articles online that go go deep

649
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: into these things, and we'll post our sources on the website. Yep, yeah, yeah,

650
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 1: we we we we do. We do a good job

651
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: I think most of the time. Yes, yes, but we

652
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: were great. Yeah, we're we're the only heroes. That's fair

653
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: to say, absolutely, But do you do not have a

654
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: podcast be the only source of information absolutely lot of

655
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: things like don't listen to if you think more of

656
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: a of a left perspective, that is that that goes

657
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: in some directions we don't. It's going down. Is a

658
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: lovely place to check out Margaret Killjoy's um uh live

659
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: Like the World Is Dying. St Andrew's YouTube channel. Um

660
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: he does some some really incredible stuff. Um. You know,

661
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of good people out there. And then

662
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: also like history books more than anything, like history books,

663
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: history books for the thing that radicalized me. Yeah, if

664
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: you want to read more about the new sub notable

665
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: laws signed recently, the k c r A and Sacramento

666
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: did A did a really good breakdown article. Oh sorry,

667
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: so it it's okay. And and as a note, we

668
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: will be doing more episodes like this over time, as

669
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: like stories that we cover have additional things happen to them.

670
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: This is like we don't want to just be like

671
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: dropping a story and then ignore whatever happens next. Um.

672
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes that don't mean following up with people that we're

673
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: talking to on the ground, but you know, we are

674
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: trying to like keep you updated on the things that

675
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: we think are important, you know, even when they end

676
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: uh in a in a broadly positive sense or whatever.

677
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: And uh, lastly, what was the name of that brisket

678
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: place in Atlantic, because I'm sure people are gonna ask

679
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: about it. Oh, I don't remember. It was some shitty

680
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: little place in the middle of South Atlanta. Um and

681
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: like a fucking strip mall that was really helpful. I

682
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: don't remember. So if it was like eleven years ago,

683
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: what do you I don't remember the best brisket you've

684
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: ever had, and it was but the best. Like if

685
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: you know anything about good barbecue, the best barbecue you

686
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: ever have is either cooked by like your uncle or

687
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: is cooked in some shitty little place with a diastern

688
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: that wouldn't pass a code inspection. That is true that

689
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: the more the more codes it violates, the better than bisket. Um. Anyway,

690
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: if you see the chef actively ship on the grill,

691
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: that means just going to be incredible. Jesus Christ, Twitter

692
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: and Instagram, what happened here? Poticles out media? Subscribe to

693
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: the feed and leave a five star review. That's it.

694
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: Don't don't don't shoot on your brisket grill on everything?

695
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Alrighty Garrison, is that good? Is that the show? No?

696
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: Just keep going? Though Okay, well it could happen. Here

697
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: is the show that A tonal noise is my introduction

698
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: this week because I'm a hack in a fraud. Who

699
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 1: isn't a hack in a fraud? Is is our guest

700
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: this week. St Andrew. St Andrew, you are a solar

701
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: punk anarchist from Trinidad. Um. You have a YouTube channel,

702
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: UM where you talk about solar punk. Um you talked

703
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 1: about stuff like seed bombing. Yeah. I'm just very excited

704
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: to have you on the show because I'm a big

705
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: fan of YouTube channel. Thank you, glad to be here,

706
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: big fan of your work as well, Andrew. I kind

707
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: of wanted to start with why this Why solar punk

708
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: is important? Because, um, I think it's easy for folks

709
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: who just kind of skim it to see it. It's

710
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: just like, oh, it's an aesthetic. It's maybe an art

711
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: style or a fiction style. UM. Maybe something that's neat,

712
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: but not something that has like a lot of inherent

713
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: value to people trying to change the world. And obviously

714
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: you disagree with that. I disagree with it to UM.

715
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: A quote I keep coming back to again and again

716
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: is one from Werner Herzog in the nineteen seventies and

717
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: it was something along the lines of I think that

718
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: without better myths, were destined to go the way of

719
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: the dinosaurs. Um. Actually of I forget his name right now,

720
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: But there's this excellent, excellent book called The Truth About Stories,

721
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: and I think what it really emphasizes is throwing the

722
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: book is the importance of stories, on how stories impact

723
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: how we navigate the woot, which is why I sort

724
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: of embraced the punk you know, as a story that

725
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: we can work with green forward. Yeah, I think, Um,

726
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly important to have better stories, better

727
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: myths because for one thing, I think where the Left

728
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: falls down a lot is not having is accurately diagnosing

729
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: the problems without providing a better look at at the

730
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: at the future, you know. Um. And when the problems

731
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: are when the people who do kind of propose solutions,

732
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: it's often um not in a way people can feel.

733
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: One of the benefits that that that the right has,

734
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: that fascism has, is that they they're very good at

735
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: providing people with myths and providing people with kind of

736
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: a fictional look at at their idealized world that draws

737
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: people in. You know, you can laugh at the right

738
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, they have lot of people that work on

739
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: like meta narratives and that's very, very core to their ideology. Um, So,

740
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: I guess where I'd like to start with you, Andrew,

741
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: because this is kind of the first time I think

742
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: we've really talked about solar punk on on this show,

743
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: even though from the beginning before any of these episodes dropped,

744
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: this was always a central part of our discussion about

745
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: what the show was was going to be. Um, would

746
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: you kind of provide an introduction to to what solar

747
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: punk is for our listeners? Sure? Sure, So I would

748
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: say that solar punk is a vision of the future

749
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: that places emphasis on the existing world and how we

750
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: get to that future from where we are now. So

751
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: it emphasizes the need for environmental sustainability, for self governance,

752
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: and for a toronomy and social justice. It emphasizes the

753
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: need for you know, human and ecocentric ends to really

754
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: be in sync, and it aims to really heal the

755
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: current rift between humanity and Nietzsche. It also recognizes, of course,

756
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: that there isn't this binary between climate change happens and

757
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: climate change doesn't happen. Rather, it understands that how we

758
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: navigate it, we Uh, have a variety of consequences and

759
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: some of the positive, some of the negative, but it's

760
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: up to us to really shape that. Yeah, and it's UM.

761
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: I want to drill into a couple of facets of that.

762
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: But I want to quickly plug one of your YouTube

763
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: videos for folks who kind of want a more involved

764
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: um explanation and background. You have a video called what

765
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: is solar Punk on your channel Saint Andrewism like Andrew

766
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: I s m UM that I think is a fantastic

767
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: introduction not just to like the aesthetics of solar punk,

768
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: but some of the practical some of the practical kind

769
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: of expressions of it. And and two of the ones

770
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: you lists like examples of here's here's what this is

771
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: is like actual practis you know, and not just an

772
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: aesthetic is seed bombing um. And then you talk about

773
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: this this very interesting kind of like terra Cotta air conditioning,

774
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: which I think is I think it's neat because it's

775
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: it's one of the problems that I think with kind

776
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: of some versions of of of particularly kind of on

777
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: the more liberal end of of of solar punk imagining

778
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 1: is just sort of like ways of replacing um, ways

779
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: of gaining the same kind of consumptive benefits that exist,

780
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: I guess not even not even like greenwashing, right, greenwashing.

781
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: Like here, let's get the same consumptive benefits we get scrapers, yes, skyscrapers,

782
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: the same level of consumerism, same level of you know,

783
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 1: destructive extractive practices. But we have some flowers and some trees.

784
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that's not enough. But at the same time,

785
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: there are things that aren't. Like air conditioning is contributes

786
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: massively to climate change. It's also not a luxury. Like

787
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: if you live in a place where it's a hundred

788
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: and twenty degrees a lot of the summer, that's not

789
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: a luxury. Yeah, this is going from someone in a

790
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: tropical country. Yeah, definitely a necessity. Yeah, So I wonder

791
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: if you could talk about kind of those two, I mean,

792
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: or if you have different ones you'd like to pick,

793
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: but just kind of what you see is sort of

794
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: the practice expressions of solar punk, sort of beyond the aesthetic,

795
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: although we're going to drill into the aesthetics some too,

796
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: because I also think that's important. Right, So, I think

797
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: some of my favorite manifestations of the punk in a

798
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: practical context, things like um, gorilla gardening. Grilla gardening is

799
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: probably the biggest one because it's one that someone could

800
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: literally pick up and do today or tomorrow, you know,

801
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: as soon as they hear about it, doing about it.

802
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: Just get some clay, get some seeds, you know, and

803
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: put those things together. Then as you're walking home or

804
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: walk into the store, just toss them wherever there some

805
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: free dude. UM. So that's a fun one. There's also,

806
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: of course things like little bit one involved, like community

807
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: gardening and particularly forest gardening, because that will provide a

808
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: level of food autonomy and agency for people who have

809
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: been healing it for a long time from the process

810
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: of food production. UM. They're also practices like compassing or

811
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: corpach ng and it's like a way to produce lumber

812
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: without chopping down a whole set of trees, so you

813
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: are able to get the wood from the trees, but

814
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: the tree remains alive. UM. There's also things like, of

815
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: course solar powered technology, whether it be algae based UM

816
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: windows that you know extract energy from the sun, or

817
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: solar sales or solar ovens uh or like the terra

818
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: cotta deconditioning, which, by the way, I learned recently contrary

819
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: work in a human environment. Yeah, but yeah, there are

820
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: a lot of difference opportunities there also there are things

821
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: like you know, tool shares and make up spaces and

822
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: seed libraries, all different ways to sort of bring it

823
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: into fruition that is. Yeah, and I uh, I think

824
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: a lot of that's really valuable. UM. I'm interested in

825
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: in parts sort of your your attitude on UM what

826
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: let me think about how to phrase this, UM, what

827
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: do you think are kind of the things as we

828
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: talk about sort of the things that can be at

829
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: least potentially replaced UM with with less extract of less

830
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: consumptive methods. Is sort of an example of solar punk

831
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: practice is replacing those things. There's also things that we're

832
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: not going to be able to have if we actually

833
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: want to live in a more sustainable UM future that

834
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: that doesn't contribute to some of the nightmares that we're

835
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: all going to be increasingly facing. UM. You're you know,

836
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: and again, I think it's it's telling that so much

837
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: of kind of the future fantasies of that are written

838
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: by people who come from you know, my part of

839
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: the world. United States focus on like kind of post

840
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: scarcity methods of of guaranteeing the continuation of consumption just

841
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: through in some cases like fantastic methods um you know,

842
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 1: magical three D printers and the like. Um, you come

843
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: from a very different part of the world, very different perspective,

844
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: what do you see as the things that like, we're

845
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: going to have to give up? Coming from a country

846
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: that is actually reliant on oil and natural gas production,

847
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: we have to get rid of cause we definitely absolutely

848
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: have to get rid of cause um free to ships

849
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: as well, and really the whole way that you know,

850
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: global supply chains are structured right now. Not to say

851
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: that they won't be any sort of global um sharing

852
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 1: of resources in the future, but the way that it's

853
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: happening right now, it can't continue to go on. We

854
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: can't continue to structure our cities and our lives around

855
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: cause you know, and other methods of gas guzzlin transportation

856
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: because we're literally going to run out. And we've known

857
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: this for a long time, but it's nearing. The day

858
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: is nearing, CLUSI and clusa, and yeah, we we have

859
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: to find a way to do without it. Yeah, and

860
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: it's it's I think tell like, there's a couple of

861
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: things that are important. One of them is you can't

862
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: just say we have to stop global trade because in

863
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: global travel, because the people have have sought and done

864
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: that for as long as there have been people in

865
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: one form or another. It's it's a fundamentally human thing.

866
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: But there are aspects of it, like you know, expecting

867
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: that every kind of fruit and vegetable will be available

868
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: year round, which is certainly thing that we in the

869
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: United States expect. Um. That doesn't that that's not part

870
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: of a realistic future. Um. And if it's part of

871
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: the future, then it's only going to be part of

872
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: the future for an ever shrinking chunk of of the country.

873
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: And you can see that in sort of um or

874
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: of the of the West, and you can see that

875
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: in kind of um the like what we're dealing with

876
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: right now with like the supply line shortages and failures,

877
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: and like one of the I think the symbols of

878
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: how far we have to go in my country is

879
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: the degree to which people are freaking out by the

880
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: fact that Christmas presents might be late. Um. Let alone

881
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, you might not be able to buy coffee,

882
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: um um ever, or all the time you know, you

883
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: might not be able to get tomatoes in December. Um,

884
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: which UM, I think one benefits too for the gattening.

885
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: And that's what's in my inset is as you learn

886
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: to so you also learn to reap. Right. So a

887
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: lot of people who get into grilla gardening also end

888
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: up getting into foraging, and they are absent stuff you

889
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: could download that allow you to, you know, learn how

890
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: to identify plants in your area. And we surprise the

891
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: number of plants in your area that are you know,

892
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: useful for tease or for salads or for whatever purposes

893
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: that can be used as replacements. I'm not sure if

894
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: they could replace coffee, but they could be beneficial, um,

895
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: in recognizing how we have to live with our local ecosystems. Basically, yeah,

896
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: and a big you know, when you talk about living

897
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: learning how to live with our ecosystem stuff like planting

898
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: um forest gardens and the like or food forest I

899
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: think is the term. UM. I think something that has

900
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: to be discussed is the matter of indigenous sovereignty, especially

901
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: when we're talking about you know, it's not just you know,

902
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: North America, a lot of chunks of the globe indigenous

903
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: people had spent you know, in some cases thousands of

904
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: generations setting forests up in order to sustainably produce food. Um.

905
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: And when when colonialism arrived, that was often just seen

906
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: as like, oh, this is this is these are wild

907
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: places for us to for us to extract or tear

908
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: down and replace with monoc cultures, you know, single crops. Um.

909
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: And so a big part of actually building back that capacity,

910
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: the capacity of us to to survive off of the

911
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: food that can sustainably grow where we live is is

912
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: looking back to those indigenous methods and and also um,

913
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: you know, giving back land in a lot of cases, um.

914
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's something you talk about in your videos

915
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: that I think is really important to um to to

916
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: to to explain to people. Yeah, I mean there's there

917
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: really is no way to separate the violance and oppressive

918
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: institution of clunealism with the equosido Nietzsche of modern states.

919
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: You know, those two are deeply intertwined, deeply married together.

920
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: And so you can't fight climate change without addressing the

921
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: issue of severeignty of indigenous sergnity and land back. Yeah.

922
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: It's um, it's really interesting. I've been I've been up

923
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: hunting on mountain Hood with a friend who is who

924
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: went to school for like forestry management. And as we

925
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 1: were driving way to drive through a chunk of the

926
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 1: reservation in order to get to the BLM land where

927
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: we're able to hunt, and he pointed it out, and

928
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: once he did, it was immediately obvious just how different

929
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: the land under indigenous control looked from the land, you know,

930
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: just feed away that was being managed by the federal

931
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: government in terms of like how much better the forest

932
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: management was, how much how much smarter it was it

933
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: was managed in order to reduce the chances of like

934
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: a ladder fire that that actually kills you know, the

935
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: trees and whatnot. There's this whole thing blowing up on

936
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: Twitter right now where you've got a chunk of Marxists

937
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: tour are trying to frame land back as uh, just

938
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: like shifting ownership of resources, which I think is really

939
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: missing the point. But I find interesting about Twitter is

940
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: the exact same discourses are repeated over and over and

941
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: over again. So I remember this exact conversation happening around

942
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: this time last year, around April last year, um earlier

943
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 1: this year as well. It's just the same discourses get

944
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: recycled over and over again, and it's reach a point

945
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: for me I realized that these people don't want to

946
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: learn about land back or what it really means because

947
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: they are invested in the structure as it exists and

948
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: they don't want to have to interrogate that. So, Yeah,

949
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 1: this will out to be an interesting thing of knowing. Yeah,

950
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: and it's UM, it's it's it's frustrating. UM. I guess

951
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: that that acts as like a general uh description of

952
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: Twitter discourse, but certainly does. Yeah. I think it's I

953
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: think it's telling the degree to which people, even on

954
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: the left treat it as a fantasy as opposed to

955
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: dogged lye pragmatic um and and proven so like proven

956
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: by like like you know, like you can read you

957
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: in reports that will that will essentially say land back

958
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 1: in the space of a five page you know, study

959
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: on how indigenous land management functions a great deal better

960
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: than UM than a lot of the stuff that's like

961
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: centralized by the federal government, where we're like, our federal

962
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: government is terrible at land management. UM, And it's part

963
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 1: of the it's part of the problem. I think one

964
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 1: of the things that that excites me about solar punk

965
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: as anesthetic and idea is getting back to this relationship

966
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 1: with the land as opposed to talking about just preserving

967
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: it um as talking about managing it. Because because none

968
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: of our none of the land that people live on

969
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: is like wild in the sense that people mean it

970
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: as it's been cultivated. And that's that's the thing, right.

971
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: The whole philosophy of you know, um land preservation as

972
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: was taken up by the US government with the whole

973
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: um you know, you can stop forest fires kind of

974
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: thing ended up leading to more forest fires downline, because

975
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: they we have a rule in the ecosystem not just

976
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: there to stand back from a far and to observe it.

977
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: So we don't do our part to manage the underbrush

978
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: and whatnots and clear to we and exercise you know,

979
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: controlled fires, but we end up in the situation we're

980
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: in today, you know, cultivation not just sterile preservation. Now.

981
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: One of the things that you talk about well because

982
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 1: because one of the more frustrating discourses this is not

983
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: just a Twitter thing, this has been going on for years,

984
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: is the discourse around GMO crops. And usually I would say,

985
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: like the two most commonly heard sides are GMOs are

986
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: bad because you know, monsanto cancer whatever, or GMOs are good.

987
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: Um end end thought. Um. And the thing that you

988
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: point out, which is I think the accurate take is GMOs.

989
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: The preponderance of evidence says that, like, there's nothing inherently

990
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: dangerous about genetically modified crops, but the way in which

991
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 1: they're often used in order to create these massive mono

992
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: cultures is really toxic. So there's a lot of promise

993
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: um for GMOs in terms of keeping our our existence

994
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: on this planet sustainable. But what's not sustainable is the

995
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 1: kind of industrialized agriculture where you have ten thousand acres

996
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: of one thing which just doesn't happen in nature exactly exactly.

997
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 1: And if you look at how genetic modification and to

998
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,720
Speaker 1: please prior to you know, all advanced funds in genetic

999
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: modification technology, um, I'm not so how many people are

1000
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: familiar with the dozens upon dozens, if not hundreds of

1001
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: varieties of just corn that were present in the Americas

1002
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: prior to colonization. A lot of those varieties were wiped

1003
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: out or was suppressed in fear of these mono cultures.

1004
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: But if we're able to culturally diversity of these crops

1005
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: and really bring some of them back through jestic modification,

1006
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: that would really help us with, you know, food resilience

1007
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 1: in a world with an increasingly unpredictable climate. Yeah, yeah,

1008
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: I think that. I mean, I think you said it perfectly.

1009
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: I want to move back to kind of what I

1010
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: introduced the episode with, which is talking about the value

1011
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: of of fiction and myth making in a in a

1012
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: very pragmatic sense. I guess I'll start by saying, I

1013
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: think one of the clearest signs of the danger that

1014
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: we're in and how toxic our society has gotten. Um

1015
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: And I am speaking from a primarily US centric standpoint here,

1016
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's unique to the United States.

1017
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: Is the extent to which trust me um as as

1018
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: the saying is when the US sneeze, So anytime there's

1019
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: some phenomenon happening in the US, there are the coffee cuts.

1020
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: And I do think this is pretty global. I mean,

1021
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: you see it in like South Korean films and all over.

1022
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: What you're going to say, yeah, the obsession with apocalypse

1023
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: and when we when we go to the future, it's

1024
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: always a dystopia. Um. There's a degree to which we've

1025
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: almost forgotten how to imagine utopia, or even not just utopia,

1026
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: just a way of living that is an improvement in

1027
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: a lot of ways of future that's better. We've forgotten

1028
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: to do both utopian fiction and any just kind of

1029
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: like positive fiction in a lot of ways, because yeah,

1030
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: it's understandable because the world is kind of terrible right

1031
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: now in a lot of in a lot of ways.

1032
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: But there's also that's been utopie being fiction inside other

1033
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: terrible worlds as well. I think just the modern interconnected

1034
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: media sphere has really rewarded this type of like dystopian

1035
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: and collapse based apocalypse fiction. Yeah, and I'm sure that's

1036
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: that's worth interrogating. Why but it is a problem that

1037
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: needs to be solved. Yeah, and it is. And and

1038
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: you're I think it's important. It's not entirely based in

1039
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: how fucked up things are, because like when the first

1040
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: Star Trek came out, we were at like the height

1041
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: of the Cold War. Things were terrible. There was a

1042
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: lot of utopian fiction during World War Two. During World

1043
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: War two, UM, I will always be impressed by the

1044
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: fact that Gene Roddenberry saw it as incredibly important both

1045
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, well in the future, like in

1046
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: the middle of the civil rights movement, in the future,

1047
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: we will have overcome like racism, but not just that,

1048
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: but like I'm gonna I'm gonna stick a Russian on

1049
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: the bridge too, because nations are going to end as

1050
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: a concept and like this stuff won't matter, um, and

1051
00:58:54,840 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: that just that kind of utopian fiction, at least at

1052
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: this at the scale of popularity that you know, Star

1053
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: Trek wasn't its time just isn't present anymore. And I

1054
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: that's tremendously worrying to me. And I see a lot

1055
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: of hope in in Solar Punk for that, um. And

1056
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: I guess for starters, I'm interested in in your thoughts

1057
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: on this, and you're interested in Andrew, what you think

1058
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: is like the pragmatic value of of of positive a

1059
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: fiction that that that imagines a better world. Yes, so

1060
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: I've done probably I think I've done like two videos

1061
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: on Sola Punk soufar Um, two major videos on Sula Punk,

1062
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: as well as a smaller video two other smaller videos. Um.

1063
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: And what I've seen in the comments and in the

1064
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: general social media reaction again and again is sol the

1065
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: Punk saved my life. You know, Sola Punk has given

1066
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: me hoop. You know, I was slipping into the spare,

1067
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: but this video really give me a jump start to

1068
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: try something new and to start a fresh and to

1069
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: pursue action as opposed to justest lying down and taking

1070
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: whatever comes next, and that that is it for me.

1071
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: You know, I think the fact that sulapunk offers like

1072
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: an energizing vision. It's not just a vision, it's an

1073
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: energizing vision because in every step with the way, it

1074
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: shows what you can do. You know, when you show

1075
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: when you look at sula punk art or um, you

1076
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: look at the small but growing genre of sulapunk literary media,

1077
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: or you know, you look at but there's don't have

1078
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: many silopunk video games right now, but hopefully there will

1079
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: be in the future. When you look at the various

1080
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: forms of silopunk media that are coming out and people's

1081
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: responses to them, you see that it's not like as

1082
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: all mentioning like Star Trek, where it's all this far

1083
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 1: out technology that we can only aspire to for now.

1084
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: You know, sol the punk is something that you can

1085
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: literally put in your backyard or your balcony or your home,

1086
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: or your school or your community. You know, you could

1087
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: put these things in place like from now, you know,

1088
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: and you can incorporate it into your politics as you know,

1089
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: as they are, and they could also help to push

1090
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: your politics forward, you know, because through solar punk, we

1091
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: can open up discussions about Okay, so how do we

1092
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: ensure that people live comfortably within the parameters of you know,

1093
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: the Earth's carrying capacity? You know, you open up a

1094
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: discussions about indigenous sovereignty, you discussions about, um, the relationship

1095
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: between the google North and the global South, and responsibility

1096
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: with regard to our response to climate change. Well, you

1097
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: open up a lot of different discussions through the realm

1098
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:08,439
Speaker 1: of sulla punk. It energizes people, as I said, and yeah,

1099
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: I think that is its progmatic purpose. It doesn't stand alone,

1100
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: of course, but it is a driving force. Yeah. Would

1101
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: you kind of give out a list of if people

1102
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: are you know, if this is someone's first introduction to

1103
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: the concept of solar punk, what is some reading you

1104
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: want to draw people towards. What are some fiction like

1105
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: I know you mentioned The Dispossessed by Laguin, right, um,

1106
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: which often gets cited. Um. Yeah, I'm interested in kind

1107
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: of other other recommendations you might have for our listeners.

1108
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: Are that right? So? Um, I'm still getting into the

1109
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: genre myself. So I don't have too many UM recommendations.

1110
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: There are some UM decent short story collections UM like

1111
01:02:55,760 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: sun Vaults by a couple of different authors. They as

1112
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: well so multi species Cities, so the punk urban futures UM.

1113
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,479
Speaker 1: And the one I read most recently was Ecotopia, which

1114
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: is quite as much older than all the others. It's

1115
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: actually a book that was published in the UM and

1116
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: not all aspects of its politics things I agree with,

1117
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: but I think for a first UM it was one

1118
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: of the really the first of its kind in that

1119
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: sort of eco utopian genre that really laid out what

1120
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: the society would look like. UM. The book is structured

1121
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 1: in a series of novel entries and notebook reports by

1122
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: a journalist from the United States who has gone to

1123
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: this country called Ecotopia, which is sort of where the

1124
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest States are, and he's basically breaking down he's

1125
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: going to different parts of the country and breaking down

1126
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: how they have lived and how they have decided structure

1127
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: their lives. UM. And even though not every aspect of

1128
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: it is one that I would want to see implemented,

1129
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: I still think that it really sparks the imagination, really

1130
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: gets you thinking, well, maybe I wouldn't do it this week,

1131
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: but how else could this be done? And I think

1132
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: the capacity for sulpunk stories suggest generate that thought and

1133
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: generate one's imagination is very useful in a world where

1134
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: we don't really get to use our imagination as much,

1135
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: not really since childhood, you know. And um, yeah, I

1136
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: I think it's often understated the degree to which using

1137
01:04:55,600 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: your imagination is vitally necessary part of actual a radical politics. Um.

1138
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of people who consider

1139
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: themselves radicals, you know, some of these some of these

1140
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: not to you know, slam every Marxist Leninist on the planet,

1141
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: but certainly some of the ones who were coming up

1142
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: with these bad faith criticisms of land back. It's like,

1143
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: you're not a radical, You're a conservative who wants to

1144
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: go back to a different kind of problematic thing. Um.

1145
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: It is more the fact that the Soviet Union poisoned

1146
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: like the largest body of water in Europe. You know,

1147
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 1: all the different things that the Soviet Union did that

1148
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: were horrible for the environment and extractive. And it's interesting that,

1149
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, these people who call themselves radicals, but the

1150
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 1: very foost um encounter with a radical idea, their fuost

1151
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 1: instinct is to shut down. The whost instinct is to

1152
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: just pushed back against it, whereas not to my own

1153
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: corn or anything. But you know, when I see an

1154
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 1: idea that I haven't encountered before that may seem strange

1155
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: to me, that challenges my precontinutions, my first reaction is

1156
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: not to shout about how this goes against everything then

1157
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: and said, you know, my first reaction is to investigated

1158
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: and to open space for it in my mind, to really,

1159
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, tune it around and imagine what it might

1160
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: look like and how it might fit with what I

1161
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: have learned about before. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I

1162
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: think that's that's that's great advice for radical politics. It's

1163
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: also just good life advice, Yeah, especially for engaging with

1164
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: ideas that you are less keen on at the moment

1165
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: or or or just unaware of. H I mean, my

1166
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: whole thing is if I have like a strong gut

1167
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: reaction to something, it might be because it may be

1168
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: hitting a pot of me that might be benefiting from

1169
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: that system, you know. I mean, I don't benefit from

1170
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: the system in a lot of respects, you know, as

1171
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: a black guy from the Caribbean, but as a man

1172
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: as in as a c SIS headman, you know, I

1173
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: do have privileges that I must be aware of, and

1174
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: I can't just like be so quick to shut down

1175
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: you know, something that might even a bit uncomfortable. You know, yeah,

1176
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: I think that's such a valuable thing to keep in mind,

1177
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: especially as a a more or less SIS white guy

1178
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: like a you know, a significant number of people listening

1179
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: are if you're uncomfortable by a new idea? Is it?

1180
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 1: Is it because the idea is bad? Or is because

1181
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: it strikes at an area in which you may not

1182
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: even have, like thought about being privileged, Like I'm I'm

1183
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: uncomfortable I have even though there's no I have no

1184
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: intellectual argument against it, with the idea of of INDI

1185
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: our use of cars as they exist, because I love

1186
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: I love to drive. But that's also heavily rooted in

1187
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: in in tremendous privilege on my behalf, um a culture,

1188
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 1: and so yeah, and um, you know, we we we

1189
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: we did talk about that a bit and the opening

1190
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: episodes of season two, the idea that like a more

1191
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, when we we kind of had our little

1192
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: utopian ending, the idea that like, well, maybe you'd have

1193
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 1: a car that's communally owned and used for certain tasks.

1194
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,799
Speaker 1: But you know, the idea of of of car culture

1195
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: as the center of a city is um is death.

1196
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: It's just death. When we talked about getting past cars,

1197
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: is not to say that like people will never use

1198
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: vehicles that move again, Like obviously we will. They're necessary

1199
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: for something and all going back to horse drawn buggies.

1200
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:49,799
Speaker 1: I think one of the last things on like solar

1201
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: punk and kind of tying into the whole kind of

1202
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: nature of the shows, I really liked enter your point

1203
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: on like how solar punk is like an energizing force

1204
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: and I feel like we have very few of those

1205
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 1: on the left and especially on the anarchist left. Um,

1206
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 1: Like i've i've, i've, i've, I've had my decent stint

1207
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:12,759
Speaker 1: of like anarcho nihilism. And the problem, like the problem

1208
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: with that is like it's very easy, Like anarcho nihilism

1209
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 1: is one of the easiest ideologies to grasp onto because

1210
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: it solidifies all of your bad feelings. Um. But it

1211
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: also it's most the people who I know who are

1212
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 1: like real into anarch nihilism, they're generally not very happy

1213
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 1: people because it's kind of it's kind of miserable all

1214
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 1: the time. Um, and sure they like scoff at like

1215
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: solar punk is like some like greenwashed yogurt commercial, like

1216
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 1: you know, like utopian thing, but also like it's actually

1217
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: lots of solar punk that we've talked about. It's like

1218
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: actually about doing specific things, Like it's actually like actually

1219
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 1: going to do something rather than just being an insurrecto

1220
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: kid um or just just you know, talking about nihilist

1221
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 1: znes and books on Twitter for all day. And I

1222
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 1: think one of one of your one of my favorite

1223
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 1: videos of yours is your video on the psychology of

1224
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: collapse UM, because I think that's one of my favorites

1225
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 1: as well. It's it's, it's, it's it's it's really just

1226
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: like a masterpiece. And how deep you get into every

1227
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: different type of collapse thinking. It's not just on the rights,

1228
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: not not not not on the left, it's not just

1229
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 1: whether you're you know more you know, anarchist, more authoritarian,

1230
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: it's like you get into every specific type of thinking

1231
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: that plays into this idea around collapse. And I think

1232
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: if I recommend everyone check out your channel, especially watching

1233
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: your solar punk videos, but specifically on the topic of

1234
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 1: collapse you know, part of our show we were trying

1235
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: to kind of be a little bit like anti collapse UM.

1236
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: And I think your your video really shows the depth

1237
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,759
Speaker 1: of that topic, UM and how to approach this, because

1238
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: collapse is a feeling, like it's a feeling we all have,

1239
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 1: and it needs to be interrogated. And I think your

1240
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 1: video is just a magnificent job interrogating that feeling, right,

1241
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: thank you. I can't over emphasize how important that is,

1242
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: because I I one of the major failings. There were

1243
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: a number of victories for kind of anarchist thought, particularly

1244
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 1: within the United States during the the insurrection last year,

1245
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: one of its tremendous defeats is that it has become

1246
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: characterized in a huge number of people's eyes as breaking

1247
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 1: windows and and starting fires um. And yeah, that's a

1248
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: lot of that is because the media is trash, um,

1249
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: and it's trash it reporting on on all of this stuff.

1250
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: But some of it is because a lot of people

1251
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:40,759
Speaker 1: have let that be their primary praxis UM. And that again,

1252
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: I don't care about people breaking windows, I don't care

1253
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 1: about people lighting dumpster fires. But if that's what you're

1254
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: presenting to the world as your practice, that doesn't appeal

1255
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 1: to people, and you have to um, because yeah, anarchism

1256
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: is not just destructive, it is also construct Yeah, the

1257
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: constructive part we need to be boosting more than And

1258
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 1: there were some, you know, from the context of Portland's,

1259
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: some really strong examples of that last year. The incredible

1260
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 1: amount of mutual aid that was was put together afraid

1261
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: of time. Yeah, during the fire relief was was incredible. UM.

1262
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 1: And the Red House, the the eviction defense occupation was

1263
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: a really good repost to you know, the disaster that

1264
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: was the Chaz in Seattle. That this was like, this

1265
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,839
Speaker 1: was an area that was temporarily autonomous from the police,

1266
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 1: that did not collapse into violence, that succeeded in its goal,

1267
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,679
Speaker 1: and that cleaned up after itself and presented an option

1268
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: for people like this is how it can look when

1269
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 1: we try to evict people. You know, this is what

1270
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: can happen. UM. So I think they're I don't want

1271
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 1: to like be too negative, but I think that a

1272
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: lot of folks because of for a variety of reasons,

1273
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, the there's been so much focus on kind

1274
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 1: of the insurrection, not even that because I think that

1275
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 1: building can be insurrectionist. I think that can be can

1276
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: be profoundly insurrectionists. It's like, destruction has an immediate result

1277
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:08,799
Speaker 1: of making you feel better, right, it has an immediate

1278
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 1: of endorphins and hormones. It makes you happy when you

1279
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 1: do it. It's it's it is, it is an exhilarating act,

1280
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 1: and you feel like you're accomplishing something. What's harder is

1281
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: to like have that same feeling by doing seed bombing, right,

1282
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 1: but by actually like improving your community slowly through these

1283
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: types of like so the park ideas, they don't have

1284
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 1: the same immediate emotional reactions. So a lot of people

1285
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 1: like when they you know, think about what insurrection is,

1286
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 1: they can a default to this destructive tendency, which destruction

1287
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 1: has its time and place. Um, but if that's your

1288
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: only practice, we're not gonna improve the world at all,

1289
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: Like right, that's that's not going to do anything helping

1290
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: through you know, giving out food, helping through giving out

1291
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: socks and clothes, helping through all of these solar punk ways.

1292
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,799
Speaker 1: These are things that actually like are going to improve

1293
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: things on a tangible level, and they and they're gonna

1294
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: make more people be like, oh hey, what what are

1295
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 1: these anarchists doing? That's actually interesting versus Oh, what are

1296
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: these anarchists are doing? This is stupid? Ignore everything they say. Yeah,

1297
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: people have to remember as well that, Um, you know,

1298
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: there's seeds a sort of funk in Kirp Hootkins writ

1299
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: things you know, from the conquest of bread to mutual aid,

1300
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 1: and those are sort of things that should be just

1301
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:25,679
Speaker 1: as emphasized as the destructive, exhilerating aspects of anarchism. Yeah.

1302
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 1: There's a line in a Frank Turner song, a couple

1303
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: of lines actually in a song called nineteen thirty three

1304
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 1: that I go back to a lot, But one of

1305
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: them is you can't fix the world of all you

1306
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,560
Speaker 1: have is a hammer. And that's I guess what I

1307
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 1: see is like the primary practical benefit of solar punk,

1308
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: just as an aesthetic as a piece of fiction, is

1309
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: getting people to expand their toolbox. Yeah, get yourself a trowel,

1310
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, some some screwdrivas, you know. Yeah, keep the hammer,

1311
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: you need that sometimes too, But what's grab some other tools?

1312
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 1: Expand the toolbox thing isn't really great metaphor type of thing. Yeah, yeah, Um,

1313
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 1: I think that's most of what we're going to get

1314
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: into today. Um, there's a couple of pieces of things

1315
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: I would want to read. One of them Isn't. This

1316
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: isn't directly I think it predates the solar punk, but

1317
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:21,600
Speaker 1: it it I think feeds into some of what I

1318
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: think it emotionally feeds into a lot of we're talking

1319
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,600
Speaker 1: about here. It's an essay from David Graber called The

1320
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: Shock of Victory UM, which I think is really useful

1321
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:35,639
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah. Um, And I would also recommend um.

1322
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 1: Corey doctor O's new fiction novel walk Away Um, which

1323
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: I think is a really wonderful piece, was a wonderful,

1324
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: wonderful book. I should have included my recommendations. It was

1325
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 1: really great. Yeah. I read it recently and it made

1326
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,800
Speaker 1: me Um. It made me feel the way like as

1327
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 1: a fiction writer that a good piece of fiction should,

1328
01:15:56,400 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: which is like I felt bad, Uh, felt bad about

1329
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 1: some of the things that I had written. Because there's

1330
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: there's there's such there's so much more courage because I

1331
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: wrote a piece of fiction that has some solar punk elements,

1332
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 1: has some quasi utopian elements in the dystopia, but I

1333
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: didn't have the courage to kind of go as far

1334
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 1: as as Corey did and to imagine a kind of

1335
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 1: passivism that he he has the courage to kind of

1336
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 1: put into the into the hands of his his protagonists.

1337
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,599
Speaker 1: Like I, I I really respect that about the book.

1338
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, the book goes in something very interesting eye

1339
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: directions as well, but it's it's got some great ship um.

1340
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: And I always enjoy Corey's Corey's leve of burning man

1341
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 1: um of what it could be as kind of what

1342
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 1: the what what some of it's turned into. But yeah, um, Andrew,

1343
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 1: is there anything else you wanted to get into before

1344
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: we we close this out? I just want to remind

1345
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 1: people to check on your friends. M you know, um,

1346
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 1: we're all going through various stages of collapse. As I

1347
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 1: outlined in my video. You know, we shift between them

1348
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 1: from time to time, so try not to go through

1349
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 1: it alone. You know, there's no there's no eye in

1350
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 1: Sula Punk. Yeah yeah, um check out st Andrew on

1351
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: YouTube at st andrews Um. Um, Andrew, is there any

1352
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to kind of plug from your

1353
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: own your own personal work. Yeah? So, um, other than

1354
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 1: the you know, the Sula Punk videos and the collapse videos,

1355
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: I want to remind sorry, rather I want to shout

1356
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 1: out my video on black anarchism. I think that is

1357
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 1: a pretty essential look into, uh the history of black

1358
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: anarchism in the United States and in the world. I

1359
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 1: also want to recommend um my video on the psychology

1360
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 1: the authoritarianism. I know a lot of people have family

1361
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 1: members who are conservative or on the right, it will

1362
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,760
Speaker 1: may be leaning fascist, and I think that can be

1363
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 1: helpful for you know, helping them to or rather helping

1364
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 1: you to understand where they mindset sade m hm. And also,

1365
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 1: you know, check out my video on puma let sing.

1366
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: I think that was a pretty fun one as well.

1367
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 1: It breaks down a lot of it break breaks down

1368
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:33,439
Speaker 1: how you can go about implementing food forests or puma

1369
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 1: culture gardens wherever you find yourself. Awesome, Um, thank you

1370
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,600
Speaker 1: very much for being on the show. Andrew, thank you

1371
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow or if this

1372
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: comes out Friday, we'll be back, you know, another day.

1373
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 1: We'll be back at some point. You know, you know

1374
01:18:48,400 --> 01:19:08,679
Speaker 1: how this works. You understand podcasts ahcast. All right, Chris,

1375
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: you go, so welcome, Welcome to it could happen here

1376
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:16,560
Speaker 1: a podcast that I think for the first time is

1377
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 1: just me and Robert. This is this is the very

1378
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 1: first time that this is happening. You're you're all here

1379
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: at a moment of legendary significance and historic importance. So

1380
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 1: try to try to face it with the requisite all

1381
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 1: that's all I ask, yes, And another thing that, man,

1382
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:36,560
Speaker 1: this is a terrible transition. Something else we're facing with

1383
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:42,680
Speaker 1: requisite awe is weird shortages of goods and price increases.

1384
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 1: M So it's fucking rad. I was just at the

1385
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: Asian market today, um, and they did not have the

1386
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: snack chips that I most prefer now officially a calamity. Um,

1387
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: we've entered crisis of historic proportion. Yeah, I think I

1388
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 1: don't think we're going to live through this one. Nope,

1389
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:04,679
Speaker 1: we're doing We can't look at that without the action

1390
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,439
Speaker 1: snack chips Like it's the ones that are like they're

1391
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: like pieces of seaweed, but that have been tempered, fried

1392
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 1: and temper a batter's completely out tragic, absolutely tragifying. I

1393
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 1: think there's a couple of things. I mean, you've got

1394
01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 1: a script, so I'll probably just let you do that

1395
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 1: in the not too distant future. But one of the

1396
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: things that's frustrating to me, although maybe it shouldn't be,

1397
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 1: because I'm probably partly responsible for this, is that this

1398
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: is being um this is often kind of being talked

1399
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,519
Speaker 1: about with by people online, is like, oh, it's a

1400
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,680
Speaker 1: sign that like society is crumbling. And what they mean

1401
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:41,519
Speaker 1: by that is that like, oh, well, we just don't

1402
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 1: have stuff, like we're we're not able to like keep

1403
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,759
Speaker 1: up with with demand and like the ability to produce

1404
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:50,480
Speaker 1: these things is crumbling. And it's actually much more complex

1405
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: than that and a lot less rooted in a lack

1406
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: of specific resources and more decisions made under capitalism about

1407
01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 1: how the supply chain would work. And it's I don't know,

1408
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:01,599
Speaker 1: I think it's important because it is you can say

1409
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: it still is like a situation where this is an

1410
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: example of the system falling apart. But it's not falling

1411
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 1: apart because we don't have the paper to make toilet

1412
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 1: paper with. It's falling apart because decisions were made in

1413
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,559
Speaker 1: order to increase the stock prices of companies by reducing

1414
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: the amount of products that they kept on hand. And

1415
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: that's led to an incredibly fragile system that that did

1416
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 1: nothing well but maximize profits. And I think, well, okay,

1417
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 1: I think there's there's there's a couple of things with

1418
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 1: that that we should talk about. Yeah, because there's a

1419
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: lot of different explanations they're floating around for why is happening,

1420
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 1: and I think some of them are good, but I

1421
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:39,759
Speaker 1: think a lot of them are missing part of the story.

1422
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 1: And I think it's important because Okay, so, like like

1423
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: my grandma like called me yesterday, like like called our

1424
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:51,760
Speaker 1: family to like talk about the supply chain problem because

1425
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: someone had like she'd been like fed a conspiracy theory

1426
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: that like the shortages were because American dock workers like

1427
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: didn't want to open containers from China. Uh yeah, it's

1428
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,760
Speaker 1: like yeah, like I mean this is not that's not right,

1429
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 1: But it's not like if that had happened, it would

1430
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: be like, well, okay, that does scan like yeah, and

1431
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 1: I think yeah, and like I think this is this

1432
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: is a moment where yeah, you know, okay, think think

1433
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 1: things are not working how they're supposed to you. And

1434
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of competing stories about it,

1435
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:21,760
Speaker 1: one which because on which are bad. And I think

1436
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,840
Speaker 1: most of the conventional accounts and whereber it was talking

1437
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 1: about this, uh you know, even the really good ones,

1438
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,639
Speaker 1: they start with sort of the eighties Wall Street takeover

1439
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 1: of corporate America and the transformation of sort of all

1440
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:36,840
Speaker 1: corporate management into an attempt to like raise short term

1441
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: stock prices. And you know, part of this is lead

1442
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: in production and this is true, and this is sort

1443
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,640
Speaker 1: of true, but dismisses about half of the story. And

1444
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 1: and the part of the story that it misses that's

1445
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 1: really important, I think is the sort of it's it's

1446
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 1: the broader like frame in which all of this is

1447
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 1: happening in is essentially the worry of how the working

1448
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 1: class essentially loses the class war in the six season seventies.

1449
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:07,959
Speaker 1: And weirdly, it's also a story about the Cose boomerang.

1450
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Dan Long, throw in, throw in, the music

1451
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:18,600
Speaker 1: clip that we've all decided is going to be the

1452
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 1: one we put in whenever someone talks about food. Cose boomerang,

1453
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 1: which is probably just going to be another time machine noise.

1454
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: So real quick, the Cose credit to Cody. Um, Okay,

1455
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: continue brief refresher on what that is. So basically the

1456
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 1: free cost boomerang is that Okay, if if you if

1457
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: if if a government does something like repressive like technology,

1458
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,640
Speaker 1: repressive technique or passive technology like in a colony, like

1459
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 1: in a war somewhere. Eventually it will come back and

1460
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 1: be used against like the citizens of that country. And yeah,

1461
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 1: a great example would be fingerprinting was invented for the

1462
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 1: British like policing um insurgents in Malaysia, and is now

1463
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: has them back to every you know, colonizing nation now

1464
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 1: uses finger printing, which is also deeply flawed as a technology.

1465
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, yeah, and you know, and I think

1466
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 1: most people tend to think about this is our armored

1467
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 1: personnel carriers. But we will eventually get to this. The

1468
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 1: boomerang technology here is actually shipping containers hell yeah, which

1469
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 1: have done like irreparable damage to the mankind. Alright, alright,

1470
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm ready for this. I don't know much about this.

1471
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: Hit me, all right, I bear with you with this

1472
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 1: because we're we're we're we're gonna talk about two threads.

1473
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:32,439
Speaker 1: They're going to seem like they have nothing to do

1474
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: with supply chains, and then they're all going to tie together.

1475
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 1: It turns out is literally all supply chains. So in

1476
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: the cities and seventies you have, you know, in very

1477
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: very broad general strokes, you have two kinds of class war.

1478
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 1: The first kind is what I'm sort of very broadly

1479
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: calling the war and the factories and this is this

1480
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:53,879
Speaker 1: is an enormous series that sort of strikes outright uprising

1481
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: a stretched from sort of Detroit to tur into Tokyo.

1482
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: And you know, the most famous of these is the

1483
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 1: student sort of worker uprising in May sixty eight in

1484
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 1: France and they you know, they're they're they're close enough

1485
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 1: taking the country that like French President Charles de Gaul

1486
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: like flees in a helicopter to in secret, and like

1487
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: flees to Germany in secret, and you know, and that

1488
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,720
Speaker 1: that that that's like a big event, but it's sort

1489
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 1: of it sort of fades. What doesn't fade is May

1490
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 1: sixty eight in Italy. And you know that it doesn't

1491
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 1: fade there because Italy, Italy has been in the middle

1492
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 1: of a strike wave since two sixty four. It's the

1493
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 1: whole sixties that basically just strik waves there and you know,

1494
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: they have their own sixty and unlike in France where

1495
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:47,599
Speaker 1: peters out, in Italy you get the just incredibly named hot,

1496
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 1: hot autumn of sixty nine, which is my bet was

1497
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:58,400
Speaker 1: a hot autumn. Yeah, it's it's great. And so basically

1498
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: what happens is you get hundreds of thousands of workers

1499
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 1: go on strike, they start seizing control their factories. Um,

1500
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 1: and most of most of this is playing out in

1501
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 1: in the Fiat factories. Yeah, it's a giant car factories

1502
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:14,240
Speaker 1: in Italy's industrial triangle, and you know, I mean they're

1503
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: there for like, they're there for a long time. They're

1504
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 1: into like seventy and eventually they lose. But you know,

1505
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 1: Italy is just sort of rocked by conflict and sort

1506
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 1: of class war stuff, and all of this reculminates in

1507
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 1: yet another enormous uprising in en seventies seven, this one

1508
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: driven like in large part by people who were basically

1509
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 1: just like, funk this, I'm not working in the factory anymore.

1510
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:40,240
Speaker 1: It's awful, which which I think is something that like,

1511
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 1: you know, if if you're looking at the modern political landscape,

1512
01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:46,040
Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people who are going like,

1513
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 1: funk this, I'm not going to go like die in

1514
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:54,080
Speaker 1: these factories anymore. And those people all have in a

1515
01:26:54,160 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 1: lot of cases, safer employing situations than many people today. Yeah. Yeah,

1516
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:02,400
Speaker 1: like it's starting to get worse than which is why

1517
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 1: people are are frustrated but likes yeah, yeah, you know,

1518
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 1: and and this this it's sort of interesting because there

1519
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 1: there's a kind of like Vicky Uster while I've had

1520
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 1: on here. It calls it, it calls it like the

1521
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 1: Monkeys Paul thing, where it's like people in the seventies

1522
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 1: and Italy wanted like autonomy and like freedom from work,

1523
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:22,599
Speaker 1: and so what what capitalism gave them was like, oh,

1524
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: we'll give you autonomy. We'll just make you all contract workers.

1525
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: And now like, yeah, you don't you don't have to

1526
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 1: like wake up every morning and like go to a

1527
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 1: job in the factory and leave it five or whatever.

1528
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: But now you just you know, you're you're a contract worker,

1529
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 1: so you just have no stability whatsoever, and that that's

1530
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 1: your autonomy. But you know this, this is this is

1531
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 1: really bad for the Italian ruling class. Like they almost

1532
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 1: lose control of Italy three times in ten years, and

1533
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: after not seventy seven, they're just like fuck this and they,

1534
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:51,680
Speaker 1: I mean, they started to start doing mass arrest they

1535
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 1: imprison like tens of thousands of people, a torture a

1536
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 1: bunch of people, and you know, but it becomes clear

1537
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 1: that like pure repression is like not going to be

1538
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:04,519
Speaker 1: enough to like just destroy the section of the working

1539
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:08,560
Speaker 1: class movements that you know, God help you thinks that

1540
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:12,479
Speaker 1: you should like run production for themselves, and so they

1541
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 1: start looking elsewhere for answers. And the place they find

1542
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 1: these answers, weirdly enough, is in the second set of

1543
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 1: wars that are going on in this period, which are

1544
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 1: the sort of national liberation wars. And you know, these

1545
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 1: are the national liberation wars. Are these these are full scale,

1546
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,720
Speaker 1: like these aren't sort of class warm metaphors. These are

1547
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 1: you know, this is this is giddy be Saw, this

1548
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: is Algeria. And you know, importantly, for for our purposes,

1549
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 1: the US fights two of them, which is Korean Vietnam.

1550
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 1: Now Korean Vietnam are strategically really bad places for the

1551
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:52,679
Speaker 1: US to fight wars, like they're on the other side

1552
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 1: of the world, which you know, it makes it more

1553
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:58,880
Speaker 1: difficult to do war crimes because you know, if you're

1554
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 1: fire bombing of village, right, you have to be able

1555
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: to move fire bombs, jet fighters and like oil and

1556
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 1: rations to the other side of the world. And this

1557
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 1: is hard about a lot easier when they can commit

1558
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 1: war crimes. And like, I don't know, duloof, yeah, yeah, well,

1559
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: like even even like you know, you got to commit

1560
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:18,680
Speaker 1: a war crime in Mexico. It's like, okay, you just

1561
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: sign a bunch of people over the border. It would

1562
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: be so easy to commit war crimes in Mexico. Yeah,

1563
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 1: and and really really up our war crime quoti. Well,

1564
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,200
Speaker 1: I would say, we do do a lot of war

1565
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 1: crimes in Mexico. It's just that like they're done based

1566
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: on by proxies. That's true. But I mean we've killed like,

1567
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 1: we've killed like a million people there in the last

1568
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 1: like twenty years. And the war on drugs. But yeah,

1569
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, so the US, you know, the U s okay,

1570
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: So it has this logistics problem, and logistics problem is

1571
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:48,560
Speaker 1: that it can't do war crimes enough, and so it

1572
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:50,680
Speaker 1: comes up with a couple of solutions to them. One

1573
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 1: of them is essentially they rebuild the whole Japanese economy

1574
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,040
Speaker 1: in order to just use Japan's industrial base to fight

1575
01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:59,599
Speaker 1: the war in Korea. And then after the war in Korea,

1576
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 1: and they rebuild the South Korean economy in order to

1577
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:05,919
Speaker 1: you know, fight the war in Vietnam. And this works,

1578
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:09,679
Speaker 1: but it doesn't solve the problem that you know, okay,

1579
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 1: even even even if you're you know, you're you have

1580
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,599
Speaker 1: of an industrial based in Japan, right, you still need

1581
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:18,759
Speaker 1: to be able to efficiently move things by sea to Korea,

1582
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 1: and you know, you still need to still supplies you

1583
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:25,040
Speaker 1: need to move from the US, And so the solution

1584
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 1: for this is containery shipping and continerary shipping. This is

1585
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the pivot point upon which the entire history of the

1586
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:39,559
Speaker 1: twentieth century and everything that's happening in the twenty one

1587
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 1: century hinges on like this, this is the pivot And

1588
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm not even this isn't even really

1589
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,759
Speaker 1: an exaggeration, because it turns out that like the ability

1590
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 1: to have uniform boxes that you can stack on top

1591
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: of each other like legos and put on a ship

1592
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:59,120
Speaker 1: is like like it's like comparable to the nuclear bomb

1593
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 1: in terms of how important it is, which is really

1594
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 1: really used to the only way to get things from

1595
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:07,920
Speaker 1: A to B was a big wooden ship filled with

1596
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 1: dubloons like pilet bags and stuff. Yeah, yeah, I know,

1597
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:15,479
Speaker 1: how did we, like global commerce work before shipping containers?

1598
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,360
Speaker 1: What did we what did we literally like you just

1599
01:31:18,479 --> 01:31:21,400
Speaker 1: like sometimes sometimes you would just like physically people would

1600
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:23,760
Speaker 1: just pick up the items and put them on the ship,

1601
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 1: or they would like sometimes they put them in boxes

1602
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:29,439
Speaker 1: or like you would like strap them to like the

1603
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 1: top of the ship. And so with the trains a

1604
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:37,639
Speaker 1: lot they would just like strap like machinery like onto

1605
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 1: a train car. And this was like not, this is

1606
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:45,200
Speaker 1: like really inefficient. It's really so yeah, and so the

1607
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:47,799
Speaker 1: US in order to like do war crimes in Korea,

1608
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 1: and then you know, it's just like, oh, hey, what

1609
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: if we just make metal boxes and then they get

1610
01:31:54,080 --> 01:31:56,160
Speaker 1: they progressively get better and better at it because you know,

1611
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 1: they have to go do more war crimes in in Vietnam.

1612
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 1: And but by the time you're getting to the end, Yeah, yeah,

1613
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, look lots of war crimes that do you need?

1614
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 1: You need good logistics networks to do all of these

1615
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: war crimes. I mean, it makes sense that that's where

1616
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 1: we got shipping containers, but I didn't realize. I had

1617
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,439
Speaker 1: just assumed it would have come out of the shipping

1618
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: industry as opposed to like we got to get more

1619
01:32:17,400 --> 01:32:20,000
Speaker 1: missiles over to these places. Yeah, well, this is the

1620
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: interesting thing. We'll get to this in a bit. But basically,

1621
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:28,599
Speaker 1: like a lot of the logistics revolution stuff either comes

1622
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: out of the military or is developed by X fascists

1623
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:34,200
Speaker 1: and and and a lot of the reason for this

1624
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 1: is Okay, I mean this is you know, this is

1625
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:38,640
Speaker 1: the seventies. They're still are in d happening like this

1626
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 1: still actual research and developments, but the military is doing

1627
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 1: just an enormous amount of the research development for all

1628
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:50,760
Speaker 1: of global capitalism. And you know, and and and the

1629
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 1: other thing, Yes, what's happening here? And you know this

1630
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 1: this is the sort of boomerang thing is that you know,

1631
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 1: so the container are shipping logistics, stuff that had been

1632
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 1: used to just like obliterate the global South suddenly starts

1633
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 1: spreading into capital like you know, just into like broader

1634
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:08,640
Speaker 1: shipping because people look at this and they're like, oh,

1635
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 1: this is efficient. And then the contracting companies the US

1636
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 1: is using. This turns into the solution to both sort

1637
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,040
Speaker 1: of the war and the factories are talking about in

1638
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:19,160
Speaker 1: in in Europe and the US and in Japan itself,

1639
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 1: and then also to the solution of the national liberation

1640
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:26,120
Speaker 1: movements and sort of like communism in East Asia because

1641
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so you have this question, right, the US,

1642
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:32,360
Speaker 1: like we kind of fight to a draw in Korea,

1643
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 1: like we kill a norm's number of people, but the

1644
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 1: North Korea. Yeah, and like yeah, but we don't really win, right,

1645
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: like we we we can't actually defeat the Chinese army

1646
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:47,719
Speaker 1: or yeah, and and you know, and we lose Vietnam,

1647
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 1: and so the question is, okay, so like how how

1648
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 1: are we going to stop communism? And the answer, it

1649
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:54,880
Speaker 1: turns out, is to just integrate integrate the communist countries

1650
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:57,560
Speaker 1: into the capitalist supply chain. And I mean there's a

1651
01:33:57,600 --> 01:33:59,879
Speaker 1: lot of examples of this, like market Thatcher, for example,

1652
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:04,720
Speaker 1: is like very good buddies with Nikolai chessqu Ah. That's nice.

1653
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:07,920
Speaker 1: It's they could be friends despite their the fact that

1654
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,280
Speaker 1: they well I guess they weren't really that different as people, No,

1655
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:16,639
Speaker 1: not really, Like basically the difference is that ky lost

1656
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:21,560
Speaker 1: and thus got like murdered on state television on a

1657
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 1: state funeral treatment. That's my official stance. They should have

1658
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:32,519
Speaker 1: for stuff we will talk about in a bit. But yes,

1659
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,439
Speaker 1: but you know, the archetypal example of this is actually China.

1660
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:38,200
Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot of various sort of

1661
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:42,519
Speaker 1: skilled diplomatic work by Kissinger and also the US like

1662
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,679
Speaker 1: throughout the seventies, just like they're just like sending entire

1663
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,920
Speaker 1: factories to China like like the like they'll they'll they'll

1664
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 1: take an entire factory, break it down, put it in

1665
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:55,320
Speaker 1: boxes and then just like ship at the China great

1666
01:34:55,920 --> 01:34:59,080
Speaker 1: at the time, and yes, so yeah they're they're they're

1667
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:01,680
Speaker 1: just like sending to knowlogy of China. And the end

1668
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 1: result of this is that you know, China goes from

1669
01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 1: like fighting American troops with like like doing bannit charges

1670
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:15,600
Speaker 1: like through the yeah yeah against the Yeah. I was

1671
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,240
Speaker 1: just like yeah to to you know, being an American

1672
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:22,560
Speaker 1: ally and like invading Vietnam as a way to like

1673
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,800
Speaker 1: stick it to the Soviets basically, and so you know,

1674
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:28,479
Speaker 1: so the uses sensely just integrates China to the global

1675
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:30,839
Speaker 1: supply chain, and they eventually do the same thing to Vietnam,

1676
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:33,920
Speaker 1: which again is another country that they couldn't defeat militarily.

1677
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:35,640
Speaker 1: But what they you know what they actually beat them

1678
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,439
Speaker 1: with it's a shipping container. And before the shipping container,

1679
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:40,600
Speaker 1: this would have been impossible, right, like basically it was

1680
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:43,160
Speaker 1: too inefficient and too expensive, like the cost of shipping

1681
01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:47,519
Speaker 1: was too high to have all of this production. You know,

1682
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 1: like some half your parts made in China, some of

1683
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:52,680
Speaker 1: them made India's on them made in like Japan's one

1684
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:54,000
Speaker 1: of the maid in Korean and then shipped them all

1685
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,439
Speaker 1: around the world, which is how the modern system works.

1686
01:35:56,520 --> 01:35:59,479
Speaker 1: But with with container I shipping, suddenly shipping is really

1687
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:03,000
Speaker 1: cheap and it becomes much cheaper to pay shipping costs

1688
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,040
Speaker 1: it is to pay labor costs. And this is the

1689
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 1: solution to to the sort of war and the factories.

1690
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: You know, if if workers start making too much noise

1691
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:13,639
Speaker 1: about pay or like again a god forbids start talking

1692
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: about like taking control of factories and running the democratically

1693
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,120
Speaker 1: like some kind of anarchist monsters, corporation can just move

1694
01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:23,360
Speaker 1: the factories overseas, and this becomes an incredibly effective way

1695
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:25,640
Speaker 1: to just destroy the labor movement because anytime, you know,

1696
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,800
Speaker 1: organized labor starts making demands, you can be like, well, okay, sorry,

1697
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:30,600
Speaker 1: we're just gonna pack up and we're gonna you know,

1698
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:32,519
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to China, We're gonna go to somewhere else.

1699
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:36,760
Speaker 1: And this coincides with, you know, the thing, the thing

1700
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: that gets talked about a lot in the conventional accounts,

1701
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: which is the Wall Street sort of corporate takeover. Well,

1702
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 1: the Wall Street takeover of corporate America, which is something

1703
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 1: I think that sounds really weird to us now, But

1704
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,679
Speaker 1: you know, the whole the whole story here is really

1705
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 1: interesting and extremely long, and if if you want to

1706
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 1: like have a very detailed accounts of how this all

1707
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:05,600
Speaker 1: played out, the book Liquidated by Karen Hoe is just incredible,

1708
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 1: like ethnography and history of Wall Street. She like she's

1709
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:13,439
Speaker 1: a Karen has an athropologist, and she like went and

1710
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:15,640
Speaker 1: worked on Wall Street and like did ethnography there for

1711
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 1: a bit and it's very interesting stuff, but it's kind

1712
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:23,360
Speaker 1: of outside of our scope. So the very very very

1713
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:26,920
Speaker 1: short version is that the Wall Street bankers basically figure

1714
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:31,040
Speaker 1: out a way to just like buy out corporations to

1715
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,160
Speaker 1: raise a bunch of money and just entirely buy out corporations.

1716
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 1: And then once they have the corporation, right, what what

1717
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 1: what what the you know? This is corporate rating, So

1718
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,760
Speaker 1: they're they're they they loot all the assets, they sell

1719
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:43,200
Speaker 1: it off, and they try to sell off their stock

1720
01:37:43,200 --> 01:37:45,519
Speaker 1: at a higher price. The parcels of this is sort

1721
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:47,760
Speaker 1: of complicated, but the net result of this is that

1722
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:50,640
Speaker 1: Wall Street completely takes over the corporate world in the

1723
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:52,840
Speaker 1: way they hadn't before. Like the wall streets. The wall

1724
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,439
Speaker 1: street like finance people are now, you know, they're there

1725
01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:59,640
Speaker 1: are the people making off the decisions, and you know,

1726
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:02,400
Speaker 1: and and they're their only goal is to raise the

1727
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 1: stock price, like that's that's the only thing they care about.

1728
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:06,160
Speaker 1: That they don't they don't even care about making money,

1729
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:08,240
Speaker 1: right if if you lose money and your stock price

1730
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:12,599
Speaker 1: still rises, like you don't care. And those guys start

1731
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:14,599
Speaker 1: looking at a lot of the things that had existed

1732
01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 1: in corporations before that, things like pensions, uh, particularly things

1733
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:21,200
Speaker 1: like research and development. They look at it and go, Okay,

1734
01:38:21,240 --> 01:38:22,960
Speaker 1: why are we spending money on R and D? Like

1735
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:24,840
Speaker 1: this this doesn't this doesn't raise our stock price, This

1736
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:27,720
Speaker 1: doesn't have any immediate shorter and value. So they cut it, right,

1737
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:30,920
Speaker 1: They start cutting pensions, They start just destroying the unions,

1738
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: and you know, and and because because this is happening

1739
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:40,240
Speaker 1: at the same time as corporations really like get the

1740
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:43,559
Speaker 1: ability to outsource for the first time, you know, they

1741
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:46,960
Speaker 1: lean into it and they start essentially, we're just just

1742
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:48,719
Speaker 1: slashing the amount of people who work for the company,

1743
01:38:49,320 --> 01:38:51,439
Speaker 1: right and so you know, and so and instead of

1744
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 1: having direct employees, they start working with contractors and they

1745
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 1: start moving to the contractors overseas, and you know, and

1746
01:38:57,800 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 1: and this is this is where we get to sort

1747
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 1: of this whole outsourcing wave because you know, something I

1748
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 1: don't think I talked about enough withoutsourcing is why actually

1749
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 1: are the labor costs lower in the countries that these

1750
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 1: people are are moving their factories to h And part

1751
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:21,160
Speaker 1: of it is, you know, people talk about development like

1752
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: they're moving to undeveloped countries, and you know, part of

1753
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 1: part of part of development is just you know, how

1754
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:30,560
Speaker 1: much technological capacity their manufacturing system has, right, and that

1755
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:33,040
Speaker 1: you know. But but the other part of it is

1756
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:37,000
Speaker 1: that if you move your production to say Columbia, right

1757
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 1: or like you know, you're investing in sort of like

1758
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,600
Speaker 1: cocoa bean farming in Columbia and people try to do

1759
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 1: you need organizing, you can hire des squads to murder them. Yeah,

1760
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:47,559
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, it's like you can basically just sort

1761
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:49,479
Speaker 1: of like you can you can outsource the violence and

1762
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:52,240
Speaker 1: you can you can you know, the corporate term for

1763
01:39:52,240 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 1: it is reducing labor costs, but really what you're doing

1764
01:39:54,320 --> 01:39:57,200
Speaker 1: is just like murdering people with death squads and terrorizing them,

1765
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 1: and you know that that does lower labor costs, right,

1766
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 1: But you know, and I think there's there's another example

1767
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:07,519
Speaker 1: of this, Like this is a lot of what like

1768
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,800
Speaker 1: the killing at Tienamen was really about. It was you know,

1769
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 1: not so much in Tianna Square itself. I've talked about

1770
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: this elsewere but like the workers that they kill outside

1771
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:20,280
Speaker 1: of the square, like a lot of the reason they're

1772
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 1: doing very little about Tinaman Square other than like protesters

1773
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 1: China government bad. The guy stands up the tank and

1774
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:32,760
Speaker 1: then yeah, yeah, yeah, I've talked about this elsewhere. More

1775
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 1: like the very short version is, so there's a bunch

1776
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 1: of students in the square, right, and the students in

1777
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:41,799
Speaker 1: the square itself like basically they kind of went democracy

1778
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 1: and mostly they want like market reforms to go faster.

1779
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: But then outside of the square, you know, bijings like

1780
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 1: whole working class shows up and there's these enormous demonstrations.

1781
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:56,719
Speaker 1: They basically start like like barricading like blocks and blocks

1782
01:40:56,760 --> 01:40:58,479
Speaker 1: and blocks, and like this radius outside of the street.

1783
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:00,120
Speaker 1: You get this sort of like mini commune thing ing,

1784
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,040
Speaker 1: and those guys are like you know, like they're they're

1785
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:07,880
Speaker 1: they're advocating for democracy and the factory like they're you know,

1786
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:14,720
Speaker 1: they're they're talking about things like like they're they're like that,

1787
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:16,840
Speaker 1: you know, they they they they they have their like

1788
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:19,639
Speaker 1: marks out and they're talking about how like they're they're

1789
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 1: they're calculating their rate of surplus value that's being extracted

1790
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:25,479
Speaker 1: from them by the capitalists. And those are the people,

1791
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:27,640
Speaker 1: like almost everyone who dies at Chana man Is is

1792
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: from those guys. Like those are the people that they

1793
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: just get massacred. And you know, and and the reason

1794
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:35,880
Speaker 1: that happens is that the CCP is looking at this

1795
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:38,040
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, this, this is this is like

1796
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: this this is sort of this is the return of

1797
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:41,960
Speaker 1: organized labor, and we need to destroy it before it

1798
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:45,360
Speaker 1: like gets anywhere. And so they do, and organized labor

1799
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:51,240
Speaker 1: and China just implode. I mean it was already pretty

1800
01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 1: weak because you have a lot of stake cantual unions,

1801
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:55,880
Speaker 1: but I mean now it's just nothing. And you know,

1802
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:57,240
Speaker 1: and and and there, I mean there there have been

1803
01:41:57,240 --> 01:41:59,560
Speaker 1: attempts to labor organizing and China sort of recently and

1804
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 1: like yeah, the to be just rest everyone, right, and

1805
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: so you know this, this this is how this is,

1806
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:06,120
Speaker 1: this is the price of cheap labor. Right, It's just

1807
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 1: incredible state repression. But this is also you know, and

1808
01:42:10,439 --> 01:42:12,880
Speaker 1: this is this is a sort of like macro scale

1809
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,960
Speaker 1: thing of why the supply chains suck because everyone talks

1810
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:17,680
Speaker 1: about like the efficiency of the supply chaine, but the

1811
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 1: supply chains aren't efficient. They make no sense, right if

1812
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 1: if if if what you're trying to do is move

1813
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,160
Speaker 1: something quickly from points A to point B. They make

1814
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:30,599
Speaker 1: no sense because you know, these supply chain are spread

1815
01:42:30,600 --> 01:42:33,400
Speaker 1: all over the world, like in individual parts are being

1816
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:36,639
Speaker 1: made in six countries, right you have like people will

1817
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:40,800
Speaker 1: like for tax dodge purposes, like they'll have one part

1818
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 1: of a component's built in one country, and then they'll

1819
01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:44,479
Speaker 1: move it from another country to have another part of it,

1820
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 1: and then they'll ship all of it to Mexico and

1821
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 1: they'll ship it across the border and they'll have the

1822
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:50,040
Speaker 1: whole thing be assembled in the USC they can say

1823
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:51,640
Speaker 1: it was made in the US. Like there's all of

1824
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,479
Speaker 1: these things that are just just nonsense right there. They're

1825
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:56,759
Speaker 1: not They're not efficient at all. It's it's completely ridiculous.

1826
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,240
Speaker 1: It's it's this just you know, it's just completely absurd

1827
01:42:59,320 --> 01:43:02,840
Speaker 1: web And and the reason why it is designed like

1828
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 1: this is as as a giant sort of kind of

1829
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:09,160
Speaker 1: unsurgency thing. Like the reason the reason supply chains are

1830
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 1: are just bad is because there, you know, they they

1831
01:43:15,400 --> 01:43:17,519
Speaker 1: they're not designed to move things. That they're designed as

1832
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 1: an instrument to just like solve the problem of of

1833
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:24,559
Speaker 1: of of class power right there there there. They're designed

1834
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 1: destroy unions. Are designed to make sure that nobody ever

1835
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:30,120
Speaker 1: sort of like gets any ideas about widges, to make

1836
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:34,360
Speaker 1: sure nobody gets an ideas about like taking anything. And

1837
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 1: so you know, but this this, this can work for

1838
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 1: a while. The problem is again, like they're not efficient.

1839
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 1: It's it's just it just it is not efficient to

1840
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:49,840
Speaker 1: like move have everything made in like six countries and

1841
01:43:49,880 --> 01:43:51,479
Speaker 1: then you have to send them somewhere else. Yeah, And

1842
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:54,479
Speaker 1: so you know, it's efficient in the sense that it

1843
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 1: efficiently maximizes the value of stock prices for like stock

1844
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:01,120
Speaker 1: by bags and stuff. And generally what is meant by

1845
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:04,800
Speaker 1: like efficiency in that sense is like what makes the

1846
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 1: seventy people who actually own this company the most money.

1847
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:11,240
Speaker 1: That's the efficient thing. But it's horribly inefficient in every

1848
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:13,560
Speaker 1: practical sense of the work. And and and that this

1849
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,760
Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting change because I mean, you

1850
01:44:15,840 --> 01:44:18,000
Speaker 1: know this this isn't to say that like the supply

1851
01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:20,479
Speaker 1: chains that worked before this were like better, because they

1852
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:22,519
Speaker 1: also sucked in a lot of their own ways. But

1853
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 1: all of the like efficiency stuff that we're about to

1854
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:29,600
Speaker 1: talk about just just in time production, etcetera, etcetera, Like

1855
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:34,640
Speaker 1: you know what isn't produced just in time? Sorry, but

1856
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:38,040
Speaker 1: it isn't add right time. Yeah, they're they're they're they're

1857
01:44:38,040 --> 01:44:40,080
Speaker 1: not produced just in time anymore because the supply chains

1858
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:43,679
Speaker 1: falling apart. That's that's what that is. Our promise about

1859
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:47,400
Speaker 1: our sponsors is that, uh, they're they're not at all

1860
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:49,760
Speaker 1: in time. Who knows when they'll get your products to you.

1861
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:54,599
Speaker 1: There's no way to tell. It's impossible to know. We're back, Yeah,

1862
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 1: we're back to talk about how, you know, having having

1863
01:44:58,040 --> 01:45:01,880
Speaker 1: developed an entire network of extremely inefficient supply chains that

1864
01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:05,120
Speaker 1: just absolutely suck and don't make any sense. Uh, people

1865
01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:08,680
Speaker 1: tried to make them efficient. And this this is where

1866
01:45:08,720 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 1: we go back to Japan, because Japan, you know, I

1867
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:17,320
Speaker 1: guess this is this is this is the other Forks boomerang,

1868
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:19,600
Speaker 1: which is that you know, okay, so we we we

1869
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: industrialized Japan in order to like fighter colonial wars, right,

1870
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:26,720
Speaker 1: But then you know, this turns into this huge like

1871
01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 1: Pikachu face moment when Japan suddenly starts like industrializing more

1872
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: efficiently than the US does. It's very funny. And then

1873
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:37,519
Speaker 1: and writes a bunch of books that are the premise

1874
01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 1: of all of them, is Japan scary? Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah,

1875
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:44,439
Speaker 1: you know, like this is interesting. Is this is an

1876
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 1: interesting thing here, which is that like all of the

1877
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:51,360
Speaker 1: panic around China, there was exactly the same panic like

1878
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:54,120
Speaker 1: around Japan in the in like the seventies, and it's

1879
01:45:54,120 --> 01:45:56,720
Speaker 1: exactly same, like right down to like a bunch of

1880
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 1: socialists going like, hey, look this this is a model

1881
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,960
Speaker 1: for anti capitalism. Like people people said that about the

1882
01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 1: Japanese model, and it's like it's it's all, it's all

1883
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:07,120
Speaker 1: the same thing. It's just it's just happening again. But

1884
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:09,840
Speaker 1: you know what what what type what what Japan did,

1885
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 1: and specifically, what Toyota does is create this thing called

1886
01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 1: the Toyota production system, which eventually becomes known as justin

1887
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 1: time production. And this if you've read anything about sort

1888
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:24,040
Speaker 1: of the modern supply chain problems, you've almost certainly heard

1889
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 1: of just in time production or or lean production, and

1890
01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:29,560
Speaker 1: just in time and lean production are technically difference, but

1891
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 1: the differences don't matter for us. So yeah, and and

1892
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:38,320
Speaker 1: this this stuff is derived from what Toyota was sort

1893
01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 1: of doing in the post war era. And basically the

1894
01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:47,600
Speaker 1: goal of it is, you're you're never supposed to have

1895
01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 1: any inventory that's just sitting there, so that the whole

1896
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:53,759
Speaker 1: distant supposed to be constantly the whole system is supposed

1897
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,000
Speaker 1: to be constantly in motion. So you have parts come in,

1898
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 1: they get put into their immediately get put into the

1899
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:00,560
Speaker 1: production line, and the finished products immediately shipped out to

1900
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:03,640
Speaker 1: the stores. And you know, the theory is that the

1901
01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 1: stores are only going to carry exactly enough product to

1902
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:08,840
Speaker 1: meet demands. And it's supposed to be quote unquote flexible,

1903
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:11,960
Speaker 1: which means that it can react to shifts in consumer

1904
01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:14,800
Speaker 1: taste and demand by like increasing or decreasing production, and

1905
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,479
Speaker 1: it can't do this. This is what we've been seeing

1906
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:20,040
Speaker 1: for the entirety of COVID, which is that you know

1907
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 1: that this is this is why every time there's a

1908
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 1: run of toilet paper, everyone runs out of toilet paper,

1909
01:47:24,439 --> 01:47:27,439
Speaker 1: because it turns out that these systems can't even a

1910
01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:30,680
Speaker 1: ten percent increase just completely obliterates this entire system and

1911
01:47:30,760 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 1: it just collapses and can't produce enough toilet paper. Yeah,

1912
01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:37,040
Speaker 1: and again just because it's expensive to store things. It's pricey.

1913
01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:38,880
Speaker 1: This is a big part of like why actually the

1914
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:42,439
Speaker 1: John Deer strike, which has the potential to disrupt the

1915
01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:45,920
Speaker 1: status quote movement more than any strike in recent history,

1916
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:51,639
Speaker 1: um is so potent because John Deer tractors are kind

1917
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,320
Speaker 1: of a necessary part of the agriculture industry, not just

1918
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:56,479
Speaker 1: their ability to sell new tractors, but their ability to

1919
01:47:56,560 --> 01:48:00,000
Speaker 1: repair the extant tractors. Like if harvest season comes around

1920
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 1: owned and there's not spare parts to repair tractors that break,

1921
01:48:03,040 --> 01:48:06,759
Speaker 1: like food doesn't get harvested, it's a significant issue John Deere.

1922
01:48:07,320 --> 01:48:09,360
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about this in another date. But like,

1923
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 1: not only did the most that they could do to

1924
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:15,240
Speaker 1: squeeze their employees to suck out pensions, to cut you know,

1925
01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:20,680
Speaker 1: expenditures on wages, but they they set up their factories

1926
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:22,719
Speaker 1: in such a way that there was no extra space,

1927
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:25,080
Speaker 1: so they could not scale up any of these factories

1928
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 1: to increase demand when they needed to. So that now

1929
01:48:28,040 --> 01:48:30,080
Speaker 1: that John Deere is going on strike, if they lose

1930
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:33,200
Speaker 1: a month of productivity, they can't ever catch up. It's

1931
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,280
Speaker 1: impossible because they can't actually expand the productive capacity of

1932
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:40,000
Speaker 1: their factories. And because the strike is hitting, they didn't

1933
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,639
Speaker 1: have any extra spare parts lying around, So if ship

1934
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:46,320
Speaker 1: gets broken, they can't manufacture the parts necessary to keep

1935
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:49,600
Speaker 1: tractors functioning in a lot of American farms because they

1936
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 1: didn't store anything, because that was not the most efficient

1937
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: thing for the economic bottom line of the CEO who

1938
01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 1: gets a hundred and sixty million dollars a year. And anyway,

1939
01:48:57,560 --> 01:48:59,320
Speaker 1: this is this is the funny part about this whole thing,

1940
01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: which is that you know, okay, so this whole supply

1941
01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:05,400
Speaker 1: chain system was based around just like destroying destroying the

1942
01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:09,439
Speaker 1: organized working class, right, But it's like they were so

1943
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:12,639
Speaker 1: successful at it that they've like turned around and fucked

1944
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:15,400
Speaker 1: themselves with it because like you know this this is

1945
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:17,800
Speaker 1: this is the thing about about the John Deer strike. Right.

1946
01:49:17,920 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 1: It used to be you know, back back back if

1947
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:23,519
Speaker 1: you look at like like how how the unions were

1948
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:25,920
Speaker 1: broken in the eighties, or like if you look at

1949
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:29,280
Speaker 1: like the giant like auto strikes you'd have in the seventies, right,

1950
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:31,920
Speaker 1: and companies still do this to this day, but like

1951
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 1: there worst at it. The thing they would do is

1952
01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:37,639
Speaker 1: so okay. So you you you know, if you're a company,

1953
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:39,920
Speaker 1: you know roughly when a strike is gonna happen, right,

1954
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:41,679
Speaker 1: And the reason you know when a strike is gonna

1955
01:49:41,720 --> 01:49:45,360
Speaker 1: happen is because in the US, like the way labor

1956
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:47,839
Speaker 1: law works is that like you can you can basically

1957
01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:50,800
Speaker 1: only strike like when a contract is up. I mean,

1958
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:54,439
Speaker 1: you can do wildcats, but it's illegal. But you know, okay,

1959
01:49:54,479 --> 01:49:57,280
Speaker 1: so they knew that the audio unions, for example, we're

1960
01:49:57,280 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 1: about to go we're going to go on strike when

1961
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:02,280
Speaker 1: when the contract like what was coming up, and you know,

1962
01:50:02,400 --> 01:50:04,120
Speaker 1: they'd have spies, and you can get a sense of like,

1963
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:07,160
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so are are how likely are they

1964
01:50:07,280 --> 01:50:11,760
Speaker 1: to do this strike? And you know so so that

1965
01:50:11,960 --> 01:50:14,400
Speaker 1: that that lets you do things like build up an

1966
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:17,360
Speaker 1: enormous sort of inventorio spare parts. It lets you build

1967
01:50:17,400 --> 01:50:19,280
Speaker 1: up an inventory of supplies, and it lets you build

1968
01:50:19,360 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 1: up you know it basically it lets you build up

1969
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:25,080
Speaker 1: the capacity you need to outlast a strike. But the

1970
01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:27,400
Speaker 1: problem with just in times, they can't do that anymore

1971
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,519
Speaker 1: because yeah, they they've they've you know, they've they've completely

1972
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:34,599
Speaker 1: fucked themselves by by then the John deer situation because

1973
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:36,920
Speaker 1: they hadn't strike. The workers hadn't had gone on strike

1974
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:39,960
Speaker 1: since eighties six. They've been putting funds into their strike

1975
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:43,400
Speaker 1: survival fund for years, but the company had nothing like

1976
01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:46,640
Speaker 1: has Um. It's rather and this is you know, this,

1977
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 1: this is the other part of of of why everything

1978
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 1: like good that's happening right now is happening is that

1979
01:50:55,560 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 1: they they they you know, they everything has circled back

1980
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: around and suddenly all of these companies are you know,

1981
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: we are incredibly vulnerable to strikes again because yeah, as

1982
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 1: you're talking about the just in time production thing, it

1983
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 1: only works if if everything actually comes in on time,

1984
01:51:13,560 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 1: all right, Like if if if any if any individual

1985
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: part is late, the whole system starts to fall apart.

1986
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,600
Speaker 1: And then and then you can't repair it. And you know,

1987
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:22,880
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of ways that that this

1988
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:26,840
Speaker 1: this this can be very bad. Um. You know, we've

1989
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 1: talked about the john do you We talked about the

1990
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:32,240
Speaker 1: labor stuff. The other big thing that's happening is COVID,

1991
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:35,639
Speaker 1: which has happened and continues to happen and has killed

1992
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:38,200
Speaker 1: off just enormous parts of the working class. I mean,

1993
01:51:38,479 --> 01:51:42,719
Speaker 1: it's like four million dead worldwide or something. And again

1994
01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:45,040
Speaker 1: that that's also probably an undercount because that's just direct.

1995
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 1: Guess that's not like, yeah, it's probably like twice that

1996
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:49,360
Speaker 1: it's I mean, we're looking at a minimum of seven

1997
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:54,440
Speaker 1: in the US. And again that's probably a million undercounted

1998
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:56,880
Speaker 1: at least. Yeah, it's it's a horror show, right, And

1999
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 1: and the people they killed with that, you know, like

2000
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:03,360
Speaker 1: especially in the initial phases, like it was just it

2001
01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: was just they took a chain chainsaw to the working class.

2002
01:52:07,240 --> 01:52:09,240
Speaker 1: And those are a bunch of people who you know

2003
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:12,160
Speaker 1: that they're they're not replaceable, they're they're very highly skilled

2004
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:13,840
Speaker 1: and they do a bunch of jobs that absolutely suck.

2005
01:52:15,200 --> 01:52:19,840
Speaker 1: And now you know, and one of one of the

2006
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:21,920
Speaker 1: places that this this has caused a bunch of problems

2007
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:24,920
Speaker 1: is in the ports, because ever, the other thing that

2008
01:52:25,000 --> 01:52:27,040
Speaker 1: this entire supply gamb relies on is being able to

2009
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:31,160
Speaker 1: very quickly and cheaply moved parts from you know, China

2010
01:52:31,240 --> 01:52:35,040
Speaker 1: to the US, from China to Mexico from like Bangladesh too,

2011
01:52:35,800 --> 01:52:37,519
Speaker 1: like symbolia, you have, you have, you have you have

2012
01:52:37,560 --> 01:52:40,840
Speaker 1: to be able to continuously like keep moving stuff around

2013
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:46,080
Speaker 1: in in Yeah, you have to continuously keep moving ships around,

2014
01:52:46,560 --> 01:52:48,320
Speaker 1: and you also have to be able to load noneload them.

2015
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:50,640
Speaker 1: And we you know, we we we saw like there

2016
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 1: there was the that when that ship got stuck in

2017
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:57,120
Speaker 1: the Suez, there is that whole yeah that you know

2018
01:52:57,160 --> 01:53:00,880
Speaker 1: that that that was sex We're when people couldn't get

2019
01:53:00,920 --> 01:53:04,080
Speaker 1: sex asses because the world's supply of sex asses for

2020
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:07,160
Speaker 1: months was on that one ship. Um, it was a

2021
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:10,559
Speaker 1: real crisis for the sex ass community. Those are plastic

2022
01:53:10,640 --> 01:53:14,720
Speaker 1: assis that you have sex with if you're curious. Yeah,

2023
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:21,160
Speaker 1: it's the world appears as an immense collection of commodities,

2024
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:24,599
Speaker 1: some of which are sex asses. Yeah, most of which,

2025
01:53:24,960 --> 01:53:27,760
Speaker 1: in terms of the ones that matter, are sex asses. Yes,

2026
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: sex ass industrial complex is really the lynchpin of global capital.

2027
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 1: But please continue. Yeah, well you know, but the sex

2028
01:53:35,120 --> 01:53:37,840
Speaker 1: assi indictial complex falls apart, and you know, and it's

2029
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:40,000
Speaker 1: not just the ship being stuck in the Sis like

2030
01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:44,120
Speaker 1: made everything way worse, right, But it was very funny, Yeah,

2031
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:46,400
Speaker 1: it was. It was extutally funny, but it was extremely funny.

2032
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:48,760
Speaker 1: The part the thing is like not very funny is

2033
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:51,880
Speaker 1: that like, Okay, so in order to getting this to

2034
01:53:51,960 --> 01:53:54,080
Speaker 1: work right, you have to have a bunch of longshoremen.

2035
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:57,680
Speaker 1: You have to unload all of the ship mhm. And

2036
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,080
Speaker 1: you know, one of one of the problems with that

2037
01:54:00,280 --> 01:54:02,040
Speaker 1: is that is happening in the sort of global supply

2038
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:04,519
Speaker 1: chain right now, is that the ships can't be unloaded

2039
01:54:04,520 --> 01:54:07,200
Speaker 1: fast enough. And part of this is like this job sucks,

2040
01:54:07,360 --> 01:54:08,920
Speaker 1: and people just a lot of people don't want to

2041
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:11,479
Speaker 1: do it, and a lot of people died and in

2042
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:16,160
Speaker 1: the and it's causing this huge problem, and and there's

2043
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:19,040
Speaker 1: and then there's there's another you know, if you want

2044
01:54:19,040 --> 01:54:22,040
Speaker 1: to take like the macrospective about this, it's that this

2045
01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:24,280
Speaker 1: whole system is relying on logistics workers and so it

2046
01:54:24,360 --> 01:54:27,639
Speaker 1: also needs you know, you need truck drivers. And we're

2047
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:29,560
Speaker 1: coming back and you know in the US, is that

2048
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:31,479
Speaker 1: there's yeah, you know, there's there's a sort of a

2049
01:54:31,479 --> 01:54:34,040
Speaker 1: truck drivers now because again their job sucks and they've

2050
01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:38,080
Speaker 1: been like just absolutely screwing these people over for decades

2051
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:40,440
Speaker 1: and decades and decades now and turn into the subcontractors

2052
01:54:40,560 --> 01:54:43,840
Speaker 1: just not paying them, and you know, and and this

2053
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:47,120
Speaker 1: and when you know, when the when the ports shut down,

2054
01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:48,920
Speaker 1: like not even shut up, like when when the ports

2055
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:53,360
Speaker 1: are behind unloading stuff and when the trucks like that

2056
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:55,120
Speaker 1: are supposed to be moving this stuff, they aren't off

2057
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:57,920
Speaker 1: of them, and like the cost of that increases, it

2058
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:01,720
Speaker 1: throws off the whole system. And that's that's another big

2059
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:06,200
Speaker 1: part of like why this whole thing is is sort

2060
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:10,240
Speaker 1: of imploding. And and it's interesting because I remember this.

2061
01:55:10,360 --> 01:55:14,200
Speaker 1: There was like a decade where like every other article

2062
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about how they were going to like

2063
01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:20,200
Speaker 1: automate like truck driving. It was like, the truck drivers

2064
01:55:20,240 --> 01:55:21,440
Speaker 1: are all going to go out of business because they're

2065
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:23,520
Speaker 1: going to automated. It just never happened at all. And

2066
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 1: say the same thing with with their you know, there's

2067
01:55:26,240 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's been some port automization, but like not

2068
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 1: on the scale that you know, actually does anything. And

2069
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:33,880
Speaker 1: part of the reason for that is, you know, I

2070
01:55:34,000 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 1: was talking about people not investing in research developments. Yeah,

2071
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 1: so the biggest people who aren't doing that are the

2072
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:42,880
Speaker 1: shipping companies. And that's a good time because the shipping

2073
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:46,040
Speaker 1: cup basically like container shipping, has been taken over by

2074
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 1: was essentially just like a monopoly of two companies. And

2075
01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:53,520
Speaker 1: those two companies make just an indescribable amount of money.

2076
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,640
Speaker 1: They have like a thousand percent profits and they just

2077
01:55:56,720 --> 01:55:59,320
Speaker 1: pay it all out as dividends. And so they're not

2078
01:56:00,240 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 1: they're not investing in any port infrastructure, they're not investing automation.

2079
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 1: They're just pocketing the money. And that means that, you know,

2080
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:07,800
Speaker 1: we have all that and they're they're spending in in

2081
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:09,920
Speaker 1: the case of John Deere, which I keep going back to,

2082
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:11,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of money lobbying to make it illegal for

2083
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:15,800
Speaker 1: farmers to repair uh their tractors. Yeah, yeah, they're there.

2084
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:17,920
Speaker 1: You know, they they figured they figured out that like

2085
01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:20,800
Speaker 1: the the easiest way to make money is just get

2086
01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:23,560
Speaker 1: the state to shake people down for you. It's like

2087
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:27,400
Speaker 1: fun like investing in in making anything that we have better.

2088
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 1: Let's just you know, like let's just turn the state

2089
01:56:30,680 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 1: into a det collector. And and it's interesting because so

2090
01:56:35,400 --> 01:56:37,520
Speaker 1: this this is the part of of the supply chain

2091
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 1: crisis that like Biden has been focusing on. But Biden's plan,

2092
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:44,600
Speaker 1: Biden's plans great. Biden's plan is literally make the longshoremen

2093
01:56:44,720 --> 01:56:49,760
Speaker 1: work harder. So his plan is here, we go, there,

2094
01:56:49,800 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 1: we go, there, we building back better. Baby. Yeah, we're

2095
01:56:53,720 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna make We're gonna keep the ports open

2096
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:59,480
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day. Seven days a week and

2097
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 1: like make people work weekends now, and then he also

2098
01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 1: got FedEx Walmart and ups to do twenty four hour

2099
01:57:06,240 --> 01:57:09,280
Speaker 1: or seven day a week shipping. So yeah, the solution

2100
01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:12,879
Speaker 1: is literally just like feed more workers into a grinder

2101
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:16,640
Speaker 1: and make them work longer, which is which is great

2102
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:20,240
Speaker 1: and and you know will not in any way backfire. No,

2103
01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:22,400
Speaker 1: it's fine. I don't even think we should be talking

2104
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:25,640
Speaker 1: about it. No, it's great, it's gonna it's it's yeah,

2105
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:27,920
Speaker 1: it's you know, but I get like this is the thing,

2106
01:57:28,040 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 1: Like this won't work, and it can't and the reason

2107
01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 1: it won't work is that, like part of the reason

2108
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:35,880
Speaker 1: there's a shortage is that you know, it's it's not

2109
01:57:36,000 --> 01:57:37,720
Speaker 1: it's not just about the like the fact that people

2110
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:41,520
Speaker 1: aren't paying enough. It's about the fact that these jobs

2111
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 1: are just awful. Like you have people, you have people

2112
01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:49,640
Speaker 1: working like twelve hours shifts that start at like six

2113
01:57:49,720 --> 01:57:51,920
Speaker 1: am and then they have to wake another twelve hour

2114
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 1: shift in hours later, and that these people have them

2115
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 1: can do this over and over and over again and

2116
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 1: it's well, and they don't like the way that these

2117
01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:58,840
Speaker 1: shifts are usually put on them is that like you'll

2118
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:01,520
Speaker 1: find out when you come in that instead of working

2119
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:05,680
Speaker 1: six am to four pm or whatever, they're actually gonna

2120
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 1: need you to stay until eight and then they're gonna

2121
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:09,080
Speaker 1: need you to come in. By the way, you're gonna

2122
01:58:09,080 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 1: need to come in like two hours early tomorrow. So

2123
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:13,480
Speaker 1: you're realized that like in between your two shifts, you

2124
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:15,800
Speaker 1: have a total of eight hours to get home and sleep.

2125
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:21,120
Speaker 1: And if you say no, uh uh, well, the idea

2126
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:22,560
Speaker 1: is that if you say no, like you won't have

2127
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:25,200
Speaker 1: the job. It's required. Now. The reality is that most

2128
01:58:25,240 --> 01:58:27,760
Speaker 1: of these companies are also pretty desperate to have these workers,

2129
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:30,680
Speaker 1: and a lot of these manufacturing and packing firms, it

2130
01:58:30,760 --> 01:58:32,760
Speaker 1: takes time to train people up and then they quit

2131
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:35,520
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks in because the work is miserable

2132
01:58:35,640 --> 01:58:39,680
Speaker 1: and the schedule is fucking miserable. Um, and it's yeah,

2133
01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:44,200
Speaker 1: it's all, it's it's it's it's simultaneously like deeply inhuman,

2134
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 1: but also is leading to a situation. There's a reason

2135
01:58:46,560 --> 01:58:48,640
Speaker 1: why there's so many strikes on right now is that

2136
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:52,400
Speaker 1: there is opportunity because in sort of the chasing of

2137
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:56,480
Speaker 1: short term profits, a lot of these fucking oligarchs have

2138
01:58:57,040 --> 01:59:01,120
Speaker 1: exposed themselves in a in a pretty vulnerable position. Yeah,

2139
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 1: and I think you know this this is coming back

2140
01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:09,920
Speaker 1: to a sort of the other way that when when

2141
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:12,720
Speaker 1: there was a crisis in in the senties, the other

2142
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 1: way they saw this was just authoritarianism, right it was

2143
01:59:15,400 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, is this is the pinos a solution, right like, oh,

2144
01:59:17,840 --> 01:59:20,280
Speaker 1: like workers are using control comprom minds, Okay, we'll just

2145
01:59:20,320 --> 01:59:24,880
Speaker 1: shoot them, right and yeah and yeah, and this is

2146
01:59:25,040 --> 01:59:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're finally running into a point

2147
01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:30,280
Speaker 1: where you know, this is this is the solution they've

2148
01:59:30,280 --> 01:59:32,600
Speaker 1: been trying to do now with with with this crisis,

2149
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:36,200
Speaker 1: is you know, the the they're relying on the fact

2150
01:59:36,280 --> 01:59:39,840
Speaker 1: that just the workplace is just indescribably authoritarian. I mean

2151
01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:43,080
Speaker 1: it's it's like it's it's it's a dictatorship on a

2152
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:47,320
Speaker 1: scale that is like like even to like the most

2153
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:52,440
Speaker 1: despotic absolute monarch is just like unimaginable. Like your boss

2154
01:59:52,760 --> 01:59:56,440
Speaker 1: gets to control like when you ship, like they get

2155
01:59:56,480 --> 01:59:59,000
Speaker 1: a control, when you eat, they get a control exactly

2156
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:01,880
Speaker 1: what you're doing, like at all times, they get control

2157
02:00:01,920 --> 02:00:04,720
Speaker 1: when you do it, they get a control like when

2158
02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:06,840
Speaker 1: the next time you're going to do it is they

2159
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:08,560
Speaker 1: don't even have to tell you when it's going to

2160
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:12,600
Speaker 1: be untel like you show up and you know, for

2161
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:15,120
Speaker 1: the this is this is this has been the gamble

2162
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 1: for for you know, capitalism, the entire existence, which is

2163
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:20,280
Speaker 1: that like you just have to take this and eat

2164
02:00:20,320 --> 02:00:22,520
Speaker 1: ship or they get to take away your ability to eat,

2165
02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:24,800
Speaker 1: get medical care and have a place to leave to live.

2166
02:00:26,160 --> 02:00:30,080
Speaker 1: But that's not true anymore. Like you can just say no,

2167
02:00:30,640 --> 02:00:33,000
Speaker 1: you can tell them to funk off. You can, you

2168
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:34,880
Speaker 1: know you can, you can, you can organize a union.

2169
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:39,120
Speaker 1: You can just fucking just leave your job, like just

2170
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 1: leave it, fucking walk out. And this is why we focus.

2171
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 1: I mean, this is number one why within the context

2172
02:00:44,880 --> 02:00:46,920
Speaker 1: of unions, strike funds are so important, but also why

2173
02:00:47,080 --> 02:00:49,400
Speaker 1: mutual aid is so important. Is it? It? It potentially

2174
02:00:49,480 --> 02:00:52,920
Speaker 1: when organized well enough provides people with the option to like, well,

2175
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:55,320
Speaker 1: how are you going to feed yourself? Well, there's people

2176
02:00:55,360 --> 02:00:57,080
Speaker 1: in my community who want to make sure that I'm

2177
02:00:57,120 --> 02:01:00,160
Speaker 1: fed because they believe in what I'm striking for. Um,

2178
02:01:00,440 --> 02:01:02,760
Speaker 1: that's the promise of all of that. That's the practical

2179
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:07,840
Speaker 1: behind the kind of high minded you know, anarchists of

2180
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:12,560
Speaker 1: just you know whatever. Theorizing is the ability that like, well,

2181
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:16,320
Speaker 1: this actually is a weapon too. Yeah, and I think

2182
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:21,560
Speaker 1: you know what else is a weapon? Chris are product.

2183
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:26,240
Speaker 1: I hope we're not being sponsored some I hope we are. Chris. Look,

2184
02:01:26,280 --> 02:01:28,880
Speaker 1: I've I've said before for weapons. I'll read any ad

2185
02:01:29,240 --> 02:01:31,160
Speaker 1: for a weapons manufacturer as long as they send me

2186
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:34,520
Speaker 1: some weapons. So come on, guys, get on it. You

2187
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:36,400
Speaker 1: could uh, you could be you could be in the

2188
02:01:36,480 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 1: middle of this conversation. Raypheon, you know, send me a

2189
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:43,560
Speaker 1: couple of missile guidance chips Lockheed Martin. You know you

2190
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:46,200
Speaker 1: want to give me an F thirty five, we'll we'll

2191
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:49,240
Speaker 1: plug you. You know. That's what's that's that's the deal.

2192
02:01:49,760 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 1: That's how it works. Baby. All right, we're back. Hopefully

2193
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:56,360
Speaker 1: hopefully you have now heard the advertisement for knife missile

2194
02:01:56,400 --> 02:01:59,360
Speaker 1: to knife missile harder now with like five knives, a

2195
02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:02,760
Speaker 1: thing that I and not making up. It actually exists. Yeah,

2196
02:02:03,120 --> 02:02:05,320
Speaker 1: people keep being surprised that the R nine X is

2197
02:02:05,360 --> 02:02:08,600
Speaker 1: a real thing. But there's another one. There's there's there's

2198
02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:11,280
Speaker 1: one with more knives. They put more knives. We do

2199
02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:14,440
Speaker 1: you You're not gonna look again, you can't. It's like

2200
02:02:14,560 --> 02:02:18,600
Speaker 1: with Apple products, right, planned obsolescence is a critical you

2201
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:21,760
Speaker 1: have to You can't just rest on your laurels. You're

2202
02:02:21,760 --> 02:02:23,680
Speaker 1: gonna run out of money. So you've gotta make another

2203
02:02:23,760 --> 02:02:26,560
Speaker 1: knife missile with a couple of more knives. Yeah, just

2204
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:30,160
Speaker 1: keep keep adding knives. Nothing can ever go wrong. Do

2205
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 1: not ask any questions about why you're developing knife missiles.

2206
02:02:36,200 --> 02:02:38,640
Speaker 1: Send me one and like a drone or three. I

2207
02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:42,720
Speaker 1: swear to God, I'll use it for legal purposes. Yeah. So,

2208
02:02:42,800 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 1: I guess the last thing that I that's that's really

2209
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:53,400
Speaker 1: interesting about this moment that doesn't usually happen is that

2210
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so if you, if you, if you,

2211
02:02:56,760 --> 02:02:59,280
Speaker 1: if you, you read your very basic marks, right. One

2212
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:00,960
Speaker 1: of the things Marks talks about is that there's this

2213
02:03:01,000 --> 02:03:03,320
Speaker 1: thing called the Reserve Army of Labor, which is it's

2214
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:04,720
Speaker 1: just like, you know, there's a bunch of people who

2215
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:08,520
Speaker 1: are just always unemployed and they get along by doing

2216
02:03:08,600 --> 02:03:12,760
Speaker 1: sort of like odd jobs, like you know, like my, my,

2217
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:15,440
Speaker 1: My quintessential person for this is like if you ever

2218
02:03:15,480 --> 02:03:17,680
Speaker 1: go on a subway, there's you know, it's it's the

2219
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:20,160
Speaker 1: guy selling candy bars in the subway. Yeah, right, it's

2220
02:03:20,240 --> 02:03:24,480
Speaker 1: people who quasi legal you know, sometimes they just kind

2221
02:03:24,520 --> 02:03:28,120
Speaker 1: of like doing whatever. You know, we call them. In

2222
02:03:28,400 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 1: the West Coast, you have a lot of those, like, yeah,

2223
02:03:31,720 --> 02:03:33,800
Speaker 1: people who tream marijuana for a couple of months and

2224
02:03:33,840 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 1: then just kind of like crashing you know, camp sites

2225
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:37,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the year or whatever. Like, yeah, there's

2226
02:03:37,640 --> 02:03:39,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of those folks, for sure. Yeah. And you know,

2227
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:41,760
Speaker 1: and like the the the number of these people who

2228
02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:43,760
Speaker 1: have been just like kicked out of like the formal

2229
02:03:43,840 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 1: labor system has been increasing for a long time. But

2230
02:03:47,680 --> 02:03:51,120
Speaker 1: what's interesting about this moment is that you know, every

2231
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 1: every strike you see has a second strike behind it,

2232
02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:57,720
Speaker 1: and that strike is the informal general strike, which is

2233
02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 1: just again people just quitting their jobs and leaving. And

2234
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:03,920
Speaker 1: you have this weird moment where where normally the sort

2235
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:05,920
Speaker 1: of reserve army of labor is this thing that like

2236
02:04:06,400 --> 02:04:08,600
Speaker 1: capitalism can always sort of rely on as a way

2237
02:04:08,640 --> 02:04:11,120
Speaker 1: to sort of solve its problems because it's like, oh, well,

2238
02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:13,000
Speaker 1: all right, if if you're not gonna do this job,

2239
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 1: we can bring another person. But you know this, this

2240
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 1: is a weird moment where like the reserve army of

2241
02:04:19,520 --> 02:04:22,320
Speaker 1: labor is like fighting on our side. M h. And

2242
02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:27,200
Speaker 1: the fact that all of these people are just like

2243
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, they're seeing the just incredible authoritarianism of these workplaces.

2244
02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:34,720
Speaker 1: That's just horrific abuse. The fact that you know they're

2245
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:37,440
Speaker 1: they're being in a lot of cases just asked to

2246
02:04:37,440 --> 02:04:42,720
Speaker 1: show up and die and they're saying no is a

2247
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:46,400
Speaker 1: really sort of is a really incredibly powerful thing. And

2248
02:04:46,720 --> 02:04:48,520
Speaker 1: when when when you add that to the fact that

2249
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:51,000
Speaker 1: you know, all these companies have completely screwed themselves with

2250
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 1: how they designed the supply chains or it's it's all,

2251
02:04:52,760 --> 02:04:55,760
Speaker 1: it's all come back around and suddenly all all the

2252
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,520
Speaker 1: supply chain stuff that they carefully laid out over decades

2253
02:04:58,560 --> 02:05:01,720
Speaker 1: and decades decades is way to like break the union

2254
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,880
Speaker 1: movement and make sure nobody ever asked more wages. You know,

2255
02:05:05,120 --> 02:05:07,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it's been revealed to be incredibly

2256
02:05:07,880 --> 02:05:12,560
Speaker 1: fragile and you know, week to our attack, and that

2257
02:05:12,800 --> 02:05:16,839
Speaker 1: leads us, I think, to this other tension in Biden's

2258
02:05:16,880 --> 02:05:19,320
Speaker 1: plan to sort of like revive the economy, which is

2259
02:05:19,400 --> 02:05:24,680
Speaker 1: that so the US technically speaking has this like very

2260
02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 1: large central planning capability, but it only has it to

2261
02:05:28,640 --> 02:05:33,440
Speaker 1: like build weapons. So you know, like the army has

2262
02:05:33,480 --> 02:05:35,800
Speaker 1: this incredible ability like that there there's a lot of

2263
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:38,520
Speaker 1: bullets you know it, despite the huge stress on the

2264
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:41,640
Speaker 1: bullets supply chain, it really has scaled. You know, the

2265
02:05:41,760 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 1: prices have increased, but we're we're still still still getting bullets.

2266
02:05:46,760 --> 02:05:49,840
Speaker 1: America is great at making bullets. Yeah, it's less great

2267
02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:53,640
Speaker 1: at keeping tractors working, but be a problem. Yeah, then

2268
02:05:53,680 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 1: you're like even if you remember at the beginning of

2269
02:05:55,360 --> 02:05:58,160
Speaker 1: the pandemic, it was like the US just couldn't produce masks,

2270
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:01,000
Speaker 1: like we said, we we never we never like did

2271
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 1: that right, like that, like the government never at any

2272
02:06:03,680 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 1: point was like We're just gonna make mass given the people.

2273
02:06:06,360 --> 02:06:08,680
Speaker 1: They just never did it. And so you know, our

2274
02:06:08,720 --> 02:06:11,280
Speaker 1: mass supplies. All those suppli chains suck. And the only

2275
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:14,520
Speaker 1: way that like the States can intervene and get the

2276
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:16,760
Speaker 1: supply chains to work is by doing one of two things.

2277
02:06:17,320 --> 02:06:19,600
Speaker 1: It's by either doing a thing Biden was doing, which

2278
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:22,720
Speaker 1: is just go to a bunch of companies and tell

2279
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:25,800
Speaker 1: them to make all of their workers work harder, which

2280
02:06:25,840 --> 02:06:28,440
Speaker 1: is the thing that like, you know, totally won't backfire

2281
02:06:28,680 --> 02:06:30,400
Speaker 1: or explode in his face. And then the second thing

2282
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:36,040
Speaker 1: is for Biden basically to like do all this saber

2283
02:06:36,120 --> 02:06:39,120
Speaker 1: rattling about how we have to have like medical supply

2284
02:06:39,240 --> 02:06:43,280
Speaker 1: chains in the US because national defense or something. And

2285
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:46,280
Speaker 1: that's the second thing he's trying to do. But you

2286
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:50,000
Speaker 1: know that just that just makes the problem worse, right

2287
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,320
Speaker 1: because once you once you lose the ability to outsource, you,

2288
02:06:52,520 --> 02:06:55,960
Speaker 1: you lose the hammer even beating the unions with And

2289
02:06:56,080 --> 02:07:00,400
Speaker 1: so you know, all all of the sort of all

2290
02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:03,480
Speaker 1: of the tendencies that are you know, making things like

2291
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:09,600
Speaker 1: bad and scary right now are also weirdly making this.

2292
02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:13,680
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that prices are rising, right, the

2293
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:17,560
Speaker 1: fact that there's all these shortages. It's it's it's making

2294
02:07:17,760 --> 02:07:25,480
Speaker 1: this like the best moment two you know, it's it's

2295
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:27,440
Speaker 1: it's it's making this the best moment that and that

2296
02:07:27,560 --> 02:07:31,080
Speaker 1: anyone's had in ages to actually try to make something better. Yeah,

2297
02:07:31,360 --> 02:07:33,800
Speaker 1: and and and the important thing is we're starting to

2298
02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:37,000
Speaker 1: see it happen. And yeah, and we're we're we're we're

2299
02:07:37,040 --> 02:07:39,680
Speaker 1: gonna talk more about sch October and sort of the

2300
02:07:39,720 --> 02:07:42,920
Speaker 1: strike wave in the coming you know, weeks and months.

2301
02:07:43,080 --> 02:07:46,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're gonna we're gonna be hitting this pretty hard,

2302
02:07:46,160 --> 02:07:48,000
Speaker 1: even just next week. Um, we have a lot of

2303
02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:49,760
Speaker 1: stuff in the pipeline. Kind of wish we've gotten to

2304
02:07:49,840 --> 02:07:52,400
Speaker 1: it earlier. But there's a lot of stuff to talk

2305
02:07:52,440 --> 02:07:55,920
Speaker 1: about in the world happening that that's within our milieu.

2306
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:59,040
Speaker 1: It turns out when you're when you're specific focus is

2307
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:02,520
Speaker 1: things falling up a uh, you're always behind uncovering all

2308
02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:05,760
Speaker 1: the things that are on the mark. But I think

2309
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:08,480
Speaker 1: it is a good time to to to drive this

2310
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:12,640
Speaker 1: to a close, to drag this episode out behind the

2311
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:15,560
Speaker 1: farm the barn, and and and shoot it and bury

2312
02:08:15,600 --> 02:08:18,280
Speaker 1: it in a shallow grave and and break its bones

2313
02:08:18,320 --> 02:08:22,040
Speaker 1: with the hammers that the police can't identify it. Chris, Um,

2314
02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:26,080
Speaker 1: thank you for putting this together. I got anything anything

2315
02:08:26,120 --> 02:08:31,320
Speaker 1: else to say? Uh, quit your job, you or you

2316
02:08:31,480 --> 02:08:34,240
Speaker 1: and or unionize your workplace and or take it over

2317
02:08:34,360 --> 02:08:37,640
Speaker 1: and run it yourselves, because Lord knows the people who

2318
02:08:37,720 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 1: are telling you what to do, just literally do not

2319
02:08:40,800 --> 02:08:47,040
Speaker 1: care if you die. Yeah, And I mean with with that, no, no, no, no,

2320
02:08:47,200 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 1: I was just gonna uh, I don't know what I

2321
02:08:50,440 --> 02:08:52,120
Speaker 1: was gonna do, Chris, I don't know what I was

2322
02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:54,560
Speaker 1: gonna do. Do do Go go do something. You know

2323
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:57,640
Speaker 1: you're you're listening to things, Go do something. Yeah, and

2324
02:08:57,840 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: and yeah, and if you want to live and to

2325
02:09:00,400 --> 02:09:07,280
Speaker 1: us do more things. We are allegedly allegedly we we

2326
02:09:07,440 --> 02:09:10,200
Speaker 1: we are at cool Zone media on on the Twitter

2327
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 1: and and the you can't prove that in court, it's true.

2328
02:09:14,280 --> 02:09:16,240
Speaker 1: Good luck, good luck to them and trying to prove

2329
02:09:16,360 --> 02:09:19,040
Speaker 1: that we did this. Yeah, that's right, motherfucker's all right.

2330
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:41,040
Speaker 1: Uh uh excellent, Chris, that's good. That's good. That's the

2331
02:09:41,160 --> 02:09:43,560
Speaker 1: kind of a tonal grunting that people have come to

2332
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:47,800
Speaker 1: express respect from the introductions of my podcast. I was

2333
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:49,960
Speaker 1: hoping it wouldn't be that, but then it was so

2334
02:09:50,280 --> 02:09:56,080
Speaker 1: bad that it was great thrill. That's our brand. Now

2335
02:09:56,520 --> 02:09:59,800
Speaker 1: it can't be anything else. We've we've established it. Look,

2336
02:09:59,840 --> 02:10:02,280
Speaker 1: no body else is doing that. The Cometown guys, I

2337
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:05,480
Speaker 1: assume aren't a totally grunting to start their podcast. I

2338
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:10,680
Speaker 1: don't know, actually, but I assume not. I guess this

2339
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 1: is just how we start It could happen here is

2340
02:10:14,080 --> 02:10:18,000
Speaker 1: a podcast. You don't sound like you believe it enthusiastically,

2341
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:27,440
Speaker 1: Chris with feeling. This is a podcasting happening here. That yeah, excellent,

2342
02:10:27,680 --> 02:10:29,240
Speaker 1: that's how we do it. Okay, what are we talking

2343
02:10:29,240 --> 02:10:32,360
Speaker 1: about today? Well, one of the things that is happening here,

2344
02:10:32,680 --> 02:10:36,320
Speaker 1: as we have discussed briefly in previous episodes is a

2345
02:10:36,440 --> 02:10:40,720
Speaker 1: bunch of strikes, And with us today to talk about

2346
02:10:41,200 --> 02:10:45,120
Speaker 1: one of these stripes, specifically the Collogue strike is Mel Buwer,

2347
02:10:45,240 --> 02:10:49,400
Speaker 1: an independent researcher, educator, and freelance journalists based in Omaha, Nebraska,

2348
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:53,480
Speaker 1: where this particular strike is taking place, who has done

2349
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:57,200
Speaker 1: done a lot of journalism previously on the local Protestant

2350
02:10:57,280 --> 02:11:01,600
Speaker 1: Uprising Street and is also researching writing a book on

2351
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:08,960
Speaker 1: alternative media. Hi, Hello, we'll welcome to the show. Than strikes,

2352
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:11,560
Speaker 1: strikes apparently is what's up? It is? It is Strictober.

2353
02:11:12,240 --> 02:11:19,040
Speaker 1: We're doing strikes, strike wave baby. Ye. So this this

2354
02:11:19,200 --> 02:11:22,240
Speaker 1: specific strike, Um, why don't can you can you walk

2355
02:11:22,320 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 1: us through a bit about how we got to the

2356
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:29,840
Speaker 1: point where this Kellogg factory is on strike? Um? Well,

2357
02:11:30,040 --> 02:11:34,480
Speaker 1: first off, it's four plants. It's all for American Kellogg

2358
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:38,840
Speaker 1: cereal plants have gone on strike. Um. The workers and

2359
02:11:38,920 --> 02:11:42,840
Speaker 1: these plants are represented by the bakery, confectionery tobacco workers

2360
02:11:42,880 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 1: in grain Miller's International Union. I do love that bakeries

2361
02:11:46,640 --> 02:11:50,520
Speaker 1: and tobacco workers are in the same union. Yeah that's

2362
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:55,760
Speaker 1: rat yeah yeah. So um, their contract was up for

2363
02:11:55,840 --> 02:12:01,839
Speaker 1: renegotiation in actually UM and UM due to a series

2364
02:12:01,920 --> 02:12:06,680
Speaker 1: of weird things happening, they pushed the negotiations to UM.

2365
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:11,960
Speaker 1: They renegotiate their contract every five years UM and at

2366
02:12:12,040 --> 02:12:18,320
Speaker 1: stake this year, UM was a sort of pushing back

2367
02:12:18,360 --> 02:12:22,080
Speaker 1: against a recently introduced to tier employment system that they

2368
02:12:22,480 --> 02:12:28,280
Speaker 1: company sort of strong armed the union into, which essentially

2369
02:12:29,160 --> 02:12:31,760
Speaker 1: is not it's not a good deal for anyone UM.

2370
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:36,920
Speaker 1: In they pushed in this sort of two tier system

2371
02:12:37,080 --> 02:12:40,800
Speaker 1: where one tier is a lower transitional tier and one

2372
02:12:40,840 --> 02:12:45,600
Speaker 1: tier is a legacy or full time employee tier. UM.

2373
02:12:45,680 --> 02:12:47,640
Speaker 1: And what it is is that you know, it amounts

2374
02:12:47,720 --> 02:12:56,040
Speaker 1: to a difference of twelve bucks an hour and less benefits. UM. Yes, yes, UM.

2375
02:12:57,560 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 1: Dan Osborne recently did an interview with Ax Salvarez at

2376
02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:03,080
Speaker 1: Working People podcast and he really kind of talked about

2377
02:13:03,120 --> 02:13:06,640
Speaker 1: exactly what was going on there UM. And you know,

2378
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:09,280
Speaker 1: there's four people who work in four plants. There's about

2379
02:13:09,320 --> 02:13:13,920
Speaker 1: four employees at the Omaha plant, which has been around

2380
02:13:13,960 --> 02:13:18,200
Speaker 1: for decades and UM. Essentially what this tier system does

2381
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:23,160
Speaker 1: is it's capped at their union workforce. And the whole

2382
02:13:23,200 --> 02:13:27,520
Speaker 1: idea is as these full time employees retire or quit,

2383
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:31,040
Speaker 1: then these transitional employees will sort of be funneled into

2384
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:35,000
Speaker 1: the full time tier. Right over the last five years,

2385
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:38,800
Speaker 1: that hasn't really happened really at all. Um. It was

2386
02:13:38,840 --> 02:13:41,200
Speaker 1: a bad deal from the start according to many of

2387
02:13:41,280 --> 02:13:43,880
Speaker 1: the workers who sort of felt like they, you know,

2388
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:46,640
Speaker 1: they were backed into a wall because Kellogg's was threatening

2389
02:13:46,680 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 1: to close the Memphis plant if they didn't ratify this

2390
02:13:49,560 --> 02:13:55,600
Speaker 1: negotiated contract. So rather than experience, you know, five hundred

2391
02:13:55,640 --> 02:13:59,840
Speaker 1: layoffs in Memphis, they just agreed to it. So they

2392
02:14:00,040 --> 02:14:05,040
Speaker 1: you going to the negotiating table in that they were

2393
02:14:05,080 --> 02:14:10,080
Speaker 1: going to try and sort of walk that back because

2394
02:14:10,360 --> 02:14:13,880
Speaker 1: these workers all work in the same plant, same days

2395
02:14:14,480 --> 02:14:17,960
Speaker 1: for a second third shift. Transitional workers are working side

2396
02:14:18,000 --> 02:14:20,960
Speaker 1: by side with these full time employees, working the same hours,

2397
02:14:21,080 --> 02:14:23,880
Speaker 1: which can amount to seven days a week twelve the

2398
02:14:23,960 --> 02:14:27,440
Speaker 1: sixteen hours a day on mandatory over time, and they

2399
02:14:27,520 --> 02:14:30,240
Speaker 1: are making twelve dollars an hour less and they are

2400
02:14:30,320 --> 02:14:33,840
Speaker 1: not getting the benefits that these full time employees are getting.

2401
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 1: So really, these full time employees are kind of going

2402
02:14:36,480 --> 02:14:39,880
Speaker 1: to bat for the transitional employees. UM, Kelloggs wants to

2403
02:14:40,000 --> 02:14:44,000
Speaker 1: remove the cap which the union negotiated, which is attent

2404
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:46,040
Speaker 1: of their workforce. They want to to do that, do

2405
02:14:46,120 --> 02:14:48,760
Speaker 1: away with that so that they can continue hiring more

2406
02:14:48,880 --> 02:14:55,680
Speaker 1: transitional workers, and they want to funk with the insurance benefits. So, uh,

2407
02:14:55,800 --> 02:15:01,040
Speaker 1: the union tried to negotiate this. I think according to

2408
02:15:01,120 --> 02:15:04,720
Speaker 1: the local union president, Kellogg's negotiators were at the negotiating

2409
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:08,360
Speaker 1: table for ten hours and they negotiated eight hours a day,

2410
02:15:08,920 --> 02:15:12,440
Speaker 1: five days a week for two weeks. Ten hours there

2411
02:15:12,440 --> 02:15:16,640
Speaker 1: at the table. So they weren't interested in negotiating a contract.

2412
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:20,280
Speaker 1: They had laid out their their terms and they essentially

2413
02:15:20,400 --> 02:15:22,320
Speaker 1: told the union to go kick rocks. And so the

2414
02:15:22,440 --> 02:15:27,120
Speaker 1: union said, you know, we have we have until October

2415
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:29,040
Speaker 1: five and then our contract is up, and if we

2416
02:15:29,120 --> 02:15:31,520
Speaker 1: haven't ratified a new contract, then we're going out on strike.

2417
02:15:31,600 --> 02:15:35,480
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately what happened. So they've been on strike

2418
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:39,120
Speaker 1: for this will be their fourteenth day today. I think

2419
02:15:39,360 --> 02:15:41,800
Speaker 1: the fight against the two tier system, I think is

2420
02:15:41,800 --> 02:15:44,120
Speaker 1: an interesting part of this because that's been a huge

2421
02:15:44,200 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 1: part of a lot of the different strikes you've been

2422
02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:49,320
Speaker 1: seeing since the John Deer strikes, is part of the

2423
02:15:49,440 --> 02:15:53,320
Speaker 1: Kaiser strikes. And Yeah, I'm wondering what you think specifically

2424
02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:57,520
Speaker 1: about the fact that this is like this is the

2425
02:15:57,680 --> 02:16:00,400
Speaker 1: moment that people have decided to like push back against

2426
02:16:00,440 --> 02:16:03,280
Speaker 1: against two or even three tier systems they were introduced

2427
02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:06,360
Speaker 1: in the last really like ten or fifteen years. For

2428
02:16:06,400 --> 02:16:09,400
Speaker 1: the most part, well, I think it's just, you know,

2429
02:16:09,480 --> 02:16:11,960
Speaker 1: it's a divide and conquer strategy for Kellogg's or for

2430
02:16:12,040 --> 02:16:14,480
Speaker 1: these other companies. And ultimately, what it looks like is

2431
02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:20,400
Speaker 1: it uh destabilizes well established unions, especially at Kellogg's. UM

2432
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:25,320
Speaker 1: and UM, it pits workers against each other, you know, UM,

2433
02:16:25,640 --> 02:16:29,000
Speaker 1: particularly at Kellogg's. If they're able to remove this cap

2434
02:16:29,120 --> 02:16:32,640
Speaker 1: on this tier system, UM, what they're essentially doing is

2435
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:37,039
Speaker 1: they're creating a more precarious workplace for these workers. UM.

2436
02:16:37,600 --> 02:16:39,840
Speaker 1: The turnover rate and the lower tier at the Omaha

2437
02:16:39,959 --> 02:16:45,600
Speaker 1: plant is right around UM. And you know, prior to

2438
02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:48,560
Speaker 1: you didn't really see a whole lot of people leaving

2439
02:16:48,640 --> 02:16:51,080
Speaker 1: the Kellogg's plant. You know, these were These are workers

2440
02:16:51,160 --> 02:16:55,840
Speaker 1: who are spending their entire careers at this plant. Their

2441
02:16:55,920 --> 02:16:59,520
Speaker 1: parents work, their their grandparents work there. You know. UM,

2442
02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:03,800
Speaker 1: they because they're all getting paid around the same amount

2443
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:06,480
Speaker 1: of money, there isn't this tension on the line, so

2444
02:17:06,600 --> 02:17:08,920
Speaker 1: they're they're working with each other, they're helping each other,

2445
02:17:09,240 --> 02:17:14,959
Speaker 1: right UM. And with this tier system, what they're doing

2446
02:17:15,120 --> 02:17:19,480
Speaker 1: is they're throwing these newer workers into uh pretty uh

2447
02:17:19,800 --> 02:17:24,080
Speaker 1: insane factory conditions, UM and making it really difficult for

2448
02:17:24,200 --> 02:17:27,040
Speaker 1: them to uh I feel like they have any reason

2449
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:29,959
Speaker 1: to stay there. Right. A lot of these people will,

2450
02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:33,760
Speaker 1: you know put in. Some of these workers were transitional

2451
02:17:33,800 --> 02:17:36,480
Speaker 1: workers who weren't officially hired by the company. You know,

2452
02:17:36,560 --> 02:17:40,560
Speaker 1: there aren't full time employees. They aren't receiving benefits like

2453
02:17:40,720 --> 02:17:43,600
Speaker 1: the full time employees are for five years. They work

2454
02:17:43,680 --> 02:17:48,360
Speaker 1: this every day, seven days a week, three months on end. Right. Uh.

2455
02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:51,480
Speaker 1: They have this really you know punitive attendance based points

2456
02:17:51,520 --> 02:17:55,840
Speaker 1: system that discourages you calling in sick. There's injuries that

2457
02:17:55,920 --> 02:17:58,520
Speaker 1: happened in the factory all the time. You know. I

2458
02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:00,880
Speaker 1: went out to the line and wrote a piece for

2459
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:05,560
Speaker 1: the Real News about this, and pretty much every person

2460
02:18:05,640 --> 02:18:09,640
Speaker 1: I talked to showed me scars from accidents that happened,

2461
02:18:09,680 --> 02:18:13,560
Speaker 1: injuries in the plant. UM. The union president himself got

2462
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:17,760
Speaker 1: his hand stuck in a m like a mill and

2463
02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:19,600
Speaker 1: broke all the fingers in his hand. He had to

2464
02:18:19,640 --> 02:18:23,360
Speaker 1: have ten surgeries on his hand, you know. UM, there

2465
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:26,480
Speaker 1: was an accident at the plant two or three weeks

2466
02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:29,760
Speaker 1: ago wherein a transitional employee got both arms stuck in

2467
02:18:29,800 --> 02:18:33,720
Speaker 1: a conveyor belt. You know. Um, the thing is is

2468
02:18:33,800 --> 02:18:37,520
Speaker 1: these folks super proud of the work that they do,

2469
02:18:38,160 --> 02:18:43,240
Speaker 1: like absolutely take this work extremely seriously. You know, they're

2470
02:18:43,280 --> 02:18:47,039
Speaker 1: not even asking for changes to their overtime. They are

2471
02:18:47,320 --> 02:18:50,680
Speaker 1: not asking for you know, anything that you know, from

2472
02:18:50,800 --> 02:18:53,400
Speaker 1: me on the outside, i'd be fighting for more humane

2473
02:18:53,440 --> 02:18:57,640
Speaker 1: working conditions. But to them, you know, it's it's not

2474
02:18:57,720 --> 02:19:00,280
Speaker 1: like it's a point of pride, but they feld that

2475
02:19:00,360 --> 02:19:05,920
Speaker 1: they have put blood, sweat, tears, uh, you know, fractured relationships,

2476
02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:09,160
Speaker 1: time that they could be spending with their children into

2477
02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:13,640
Speaker 1: this factory and Kelloggs is essentially fucking them over. Yea.

2478
02:19:13,720 --> 02:19:16,520
Speaker 1: You know, they see, as we have sacrificed for this

2479
02:19:16,680 --> 02:19:19,840
Speaker 1: company for years and years and years, um, and we

2480
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:23,800
Speaker 1: are asking for equal pay for all and for everyone

2481
02:19:23,879 --> 02:19:26,160
Speaker 1: to have the same health care so that we can

2482
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:31,600
Speaker 1: do this job, you know, and Kelloggs is saying no, absolutely.

2483
02:19:31,879 --> 02:19:35,040
Speaker 1: You know. I think the union president said that some

2484
02:19:35,120 --> 02:19:39,760
Speaker 1: of the negotiators called those demands outlandish during negotiations, which

2485
02:19:39,879 --> 02:19:44,480
Speaker 1: I think is just incredible, you know, just corporate greed. Yeah,

2486
02:19:44,600 --> 02:19:46,280
Speaker 1: I think the other part of the story is that,

2487
02:19:46,520 --> 02:19:50,680
Speaker 1: like I mean, it's kind of a weird consequence of it,

2488
02:19:50,720 --> 02:19:52,720
Speaker 1: but like one of the things, one of those consequences

2489
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:56,320
Speaker 1: is sort of like rising like staple commodity price, staple

2490
02:19:56,360 --> 02:19:58,480
Speaker 1: grain prices and stuff, is that Kelloggs like they're doing

2491
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:00,480
Speaker 1: They have like record they have record off its right

2492
02:20:00,520 --> 02:20:04,920
Speaker 1: now and they're still just doing this ship because yeah,

2493
02:20:04,959 --> 02:20:08,320
Speaker 1: they made record profits during the pandemic. They gave their

2494
02:20:08,400 --> 02:20:13,520
Speaker 1: CEO pretty huffy raise bonus. Um, there was a stock

2495
02:20:13,600 --> 02:20:17,720
Speaker 1: buy back program that helped happened among the c suite

2496
02:20:17,800 --> 02:20:20,400
Speaker 1: folks last year. They made a lot of money, a

2497
02:20:20,480 --> 02:20:23,280
Speaker 1: lot of money. And UM, you know, these workers worked

2498
02:20:23,320 --> 02:20:28,240
Speaker 1: every day through the pandemic, UM continually understaffed, you know, UM,

2499
02:20:28,920 --> 02:20:33,280
Speaker 1: doing their best because again, they they take this job

2500
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:36,160
Speaker 1: very seriously and they are proud that they are feeding

2501
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:38,800
Speaker 1: the American people, you know, UM, and they are proud

2502
02:20:38,840 --> 02:20:43,480
Speaker 1: to work at Kellogg's. And uh, they feel that this

2503
02:20:43,680 --> 02:20:48,800
Speaker 1: contract is just shit, it's just ship. And you know

2504
02:20:48,920 --> 02:20:51,120
Speaker 1: the only sensible thing to do is to to walk

2505
02:20:51,160 --> 02:20:53,280
Speaker 1: out on strike because you know, they've been backed into

2506
02:20:53,320 --> 02:20:57,720
Speaker 1: a corner and negotiations have stagnated completely, you know, UM,

2507
02:20:58,600 --> 02:21:04,320
Speaker 1: and Um, they don't want to They don't want to

2508
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:08,280
Speaker 1: back down from this, you know. Um, they and I agree.

2509
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:10,199
Speaker 1: I feel what they're what they're asking for is fair.

2510
02:21:10,560 --> 02:21:14,360
Speaker 1: It's very fair. I mean, I think it's I think

2511
02:21:14,400 --> 02:21:17,440
Speaker 1: asking for a lot more would be fair, but not

2512
02:21:17,640 --> 02:21:19,800
Speaker 1: my place to be doing. One of the things that

2513
02:21:19,879 --> 02:21:21,960
Speaker 1: strikes me about this you talk about this tier system

2514
02:21:22,160 --> 02:21:25,280
Speaker 1: that Kellogg's introduced, which I can't help but think of

2515
02:21:25,920 --> 02:21:29,280
Speaker 1: what happened at John Deere where they I think in

2516
02:21:29,400 --> 02:21:32,440
Speaker 1: nineties six cut pensions by two thirds and then like

2517
02:21:32,680 --> 02:21:36,360
Speaker 1: last year eliminated them entirely. And this kind of bid

2518
02:21:36,520 --> 02:21:40,879
Speaker 1: to pitt chunks of the workforced against each other. Um,

2519
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:44,160
Speaker 1: where you have like you know, different groups making different

2520
02:21:44,160 --> 02:21:46,879
Speaker 1: amounts and sort of like, I don't know, it seems

2521
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:48,520
Speaker 1: kind of like the strategy that you see in the

2522
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:52,879
Speaker 1: broader economy, like written within within the space of a company,

2523
02:21:52,920 --> 02:21:56,000
Speaker 1: where you've got like some people who are getting pretty

2524
02:21:56,040 --> 02:21:58,959
Speaker 1: well taken care of in their jobs and other newer

2525
02:21:59,080 --> 02:22:01,520
Speaker 1: people who are who are getting more screwed over in

2526
02:22:01,640 --> 02:22:05,160
Speaker 1: kind of this this attempt to create division within the

2527
02:22:05,240 --> 02:22:08,720
Speaker 1: workforce so that this this kind of organizing doesn't happen.

2528
02:22:09,760 --> 02:22:11,760
Speaker 1: M M. I would agree. And you also have to think,

2529
02:22:11,800 --> 02:22:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, if they are able to remove this cap

2530
02:22:14,800 --> 02:22:17,560
Speaker 1: on the transitional tier, but that means that this is

2531
02:22:18,080 --> 02:22:21,160
Speaker 1: they'll be able to instead of say, say a full

2532
02:22:21,160 --> 02:22:25,680
Speaker 1: time employee retires, they leave that space empty, but they

2533
02:22:25,760 --> 02:22:29,040
Speaker 1: still need an extra space, an extra person, right, so

2534
02:22:29,200 --> 02:22:33,119
Speaker 1: they can just hire a transitional worker instead of funneling

2535
02:22:33,640 --> 02:22:37,600
Speaker 1: one of those transitional workers into that full time space. Ah,

2536
02:22:38,720 --> 02:22:41,680
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is suddenly you have instead of

2537
02:22:41,840 --> 02:22:47,960
Speaker 1: sevent full time to transitional, the it starts tipping, right,

2538
02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:51,080
Speaker 1: it becomes a more precarious workforce. Then say, for example,

2539
02:22:51,160 --> 02:22:53,040
Speaker 1: to do that in the next five years. You know,

2540
02:22:53,200 --> 02:22:56,640
Speaker 1: now they have seventy percent of these transitional workers who

2541
02:22:56,959 --> 02:22:59,880
Speaker 1: don't think the union is offering anything for them. They

2542
02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:03,039
Speaker 1: can essentially just offer a better deal to these transitional

2543
02:23:03,080 --> 02:23:05,720
Speaker 1: workers and kick the union out of the company at

2544
02:23:05,760 --> 02:23:08,800
Speaker 1: some point. You know. Um, and these folks on the

2545
02:23:08,920 --> 02:23:13,200
Speaker 1: line understand that and know that that's kind of Kellogg's plan, right,

2546
02:23:13,360 --> 02:23:15,640
Speaker 1: they know that the Kelloggs, what Kelloggs is trying to

2547
02:23:15,720 --> 02:23:20,520
Speaker 1: do is essentially destabilize the power of the union inside

2548
02:23:20,560 --> 02:23:24,279
Speaker 1: the plants. And everyone on the line that I've spoken

2549
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:28,080
Speaker 1: with know exactly what's happening, you know, and these full

2550
02:23:28,120 --> 02:23:32,120
Speaker 1: time employees are out there every day making sure that

2551
02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:35,720
Speaker 1: their transitional and you know, colleagues know that that's why

2552
02:23:35,760 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 1: they're out there because they want to not allow this

2553
02:23:40,080 --> 02:23:43,480
Speaker 1: to be something that divides their workforce. It remains to

2554
02:23:43,520 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 1: be seen what's going to happen, you know what I mean.

2555
02:23:47,040 --> 02:23:49,960
Speaker 1: They've brought in scabs to get the plant up and

2556
02:23:50,040 --> 02:23:56,720
Speaker 1: running again, and most recently, uh, yesterday this morning. Yesterday,

2557
02:23:57,480 --> 02:24:01,440
Speaker 1: the Building and Construction Trades Council union and met with

2558
02:24:01,959 --> 02:24:06,120
Speaker 1: the union president in Omaha because they have about a

2559
02:24:06,200 --> 02:24:10,279
Speaker 1: hundred third party iron workers, carpenters, electricians, and skilled trades

2560
02:24:10,320 --> 02:24:16,120
Speaker 1: people that are union trades people that have contracts at Kellogg's,

2561
02:24:16,760 --> 02:24:20,959
Speaker 1: and they came to what Dan Osborne, the union president,

2562
02:24:21,040 --> 02:24:25,400
Speaker 1: decided called was a tough decision that those union workers

2563
02:24:25,440 --> 02:24:28,000
Speaker 1: are going to cross the picket line to honor those contracts.

2564
02:24:28,720 --> 02:24:32,920
Speaker 1: So Kelloggs is forcing the unions in the city in

2565
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:36,640
Speaker 1: like into a bind really because they're they're you know,

2566
02:24:37,200 --> 02:24:40,960
Speaker 1: uh going to lose their own contracts at Kellogg's. So

2567
02:24:41,360 --> 02:24:44,039
Speaker 1: that's kind of been like the most recent development here

2568
02:24:44,320 --> 02:24:48,840
Speaker 1: is that rather than just temps coming in. We have

2569
02:24:49,000 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 1: now skilled union trades people from various Omaha unions who

2570
02:24:53,480 --> 02:24:57,439
Speaker 1: are also crossing the picket line two honor their contracts

2571
02:24:57,560 --> 02:25:02,360
Speaker 1: at Kellogg's, you know, um, past these striking workers. So

2572
02:25:03,680 --> 02:25:07,000
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a mess a little bit, you know. Yeah,

2573
02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:12,120
Speaker 1: there's so much going on right now. I'm kind of

2574
02:25:12,200 --> 02:25:15,320
Speaker 1: wondering what you think are the because we've got a

2575
02:25:15,440 --> 02:25:17,640
Speaker 1: number of strikes kind of all coming to ahead at

2576
02:25:17,680 --> 02:25:20,400
Speaker 1: the same time, I'm wondering, specifically from the Kellogg strike,

2577
02:25:20,480 --> 02:25:22,800
Speaker 1: what do you think are kind of the lessons that

2578
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:25,520
Speaker 1: should be taken from what's happened so far for the

2579
02:25:25,800 --> 02:25:29,680
Speaker 1: broader labor movement. UM. I think the biggest thing that's

2580
02:25:29,720 --> 02:25:34,160
Speaker 1: kind of impacted me as I've gone to the line. UM,

2581
02:25:34,240 --> 02:25:36,760
Speaker 1: I've stood on the picket line, I've covered these you know,

2582
02:25:36,879 --> 02:25:40,879
Speaker 1: this strike, I've talked to people, UM, is that when

2583
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:45,360
Speaker 1: these types of actions happen, they really only can be

2584
02:25:45,520 --> 02:25:49,680
Speaker 1: sustained because the community comes together to support them. You know. UM,

2585
02:25:51,120 --> 02:25:54,520
Speaker 1: these strike funds that are going around and folks showing

2586
02:25:54,600 --> 02:25:56,240
Speaker 1: up to stand on the picket line who are not

2587
02:25:56,400 --> 02:25:59,200
Speaker 1: part of the union are really sort of become you know,

2588
02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:04,120
Speaker 1: they are helping support these workers who can only hold

2589
02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:08,039
Speaker 1: out so long with finite resources. Right. So the big

2590
02:26:08,160 --> 02:26:13,640
Speaker 1: thing to me is that past these news cycles of

2591
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:17,040
Speaker 1: excitement of strike Ober of you know, these people just

2592
02:26:17,160 --> 02:26:19,240
Speaker 1: walked out today, well they may be you know, they

2593
02:26:19,320 --> 02:26:21,280
Speaker 1: may be on the line for months and months on end,

2594
02:26:21,520 --> 02:26:24,240
Speaker 1: and the news cycle is going to move on, and

2595
02:26:24,320 --> 02:26:26,080
Speaker 1: these communities are still going to have to try and

2596
02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:30,800
Speaker 1: and and back up these labor actions, right Um. You

2597
02:26:30,920 --> 02:26:34,120
Speaker 1: really can't have true you know, you can't have a

2598
02:26:34,200 --> 02:26:39,120
Speaker 1: labor movement without you know, support, right um. And that's

2599
02:26:39,200 --> 02:26:42,959
Speaker 1: kind of been the biggest thing that has impacted me particularly.

2600
02:26:43,200 --> 02:26:46,600
Speaker 1: You know this Almaha used to be a really formidable union,

2601
02:26:46,680 --> 02:26:49,480
Speaker 1: tim you know, back in the eighties, it was really

2602
02:26:50,120 --> 02:26:52,720
Speaker 1: really something to see that the business unions in in

2603
02:26:52,800 --> 02:26:55,800
Speaker 1: the various locals here really had some of these union

2604
02:26:55,879 --> 02:26:59,400
Speaker 1: leaders had more political power than the mayor, right um.

2605
02:26:59,560 --> 02:27:02,440
Speaker 1: And that has gone downhill over the last forty years.

2606
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:07,200
Speaker 1: And it's really cool to see, ah, the level of

2607
02:27:07,280 --> 02:27:10,760
Speaker 1: solidarity that's happening amongst the community, you know, um, in

2608
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:12,680
Speaker 1: the ways in which people are kind of coming out

2609
02:27:12,760 --> 02:27:14,800
Speaker 1: to talk to and and be a part of this

2610
02:27:14,959 --> 02:27:17,720
Speaker 1: strike and to remind these Kellogg's workers that they're not

2611
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:20,600
Speaker 1: operating in a bubble, you know, and that the rest

2612
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:23,520
Speaker 1: of the community really hopes that the strike will end

2613
02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:28,480
Speaker 1: quickly and peacefully and with a really good resolution for

2614
02:27:28,720 --> 02:27:33,119
Speaker 1: these workers. You know. Whatever thing I wanted to ask

2615
02:27:33,240 --> 02:27:37,200
Speaker 1: about in in terms of sort of this this kind

2616
02:27:37,240 --> 02:27:40,640
Speaker 1: of research in to the union movements, and in in

2617
02:27:40,800 --> 02:27:45,200
Speaker 1: in terms of sort of communities support is the level

2618
02:27:45,280 --> 02:27:50,199
Speaker 1: of violence that there's been against like against the strikes.

2619
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:53,959
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of like stuff about people canna

2620
02:27:54,000 --> 02:27:57,480
Speaker 1: hit by buses and like, and I don't I don't

2621
02:27:57,520 --> 02:28:00,240
Speaker 1: know if I think I think I'm getting my strikes.

2622
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:02,520
Speaker 1: I don't don't know if they've they have been direct

2623
02:28:02,640 --> 02:28:04,640
Speaker 1: car attacks on this specific picket line. But that's when

2624
02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:07,360
Speaker 1: I think that it's been happening a lot and a

2625
02:28:08,000 --> 02:28:12,840
Speaker 1: couple of documented cases. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I was

2626
02:28:12,840 --> 02:28:16,240
Speaker 1: wondering what you think about that, and like what actually

2627
02:28:16,320 --> 02:28:19,800
Speaker 1: can be done about the fact that, like, you know that,

2628
02:28:20,120 --> 02:28:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, like this just the fact that we're just

2629
02:28:22,040 --> 02:28:26,480
Speaker 1: seeing auto attacks on picket lines regularly, Now, I mean,

2630
02:28:26,920 --> 02:28:31,560
Speaker 1: is it that's you know, it's a it's a shitty development.

2631
02:28:32,400 --> 02:28:35,039
Speaker 1: You know. Um, I was out on the picket line

2632
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:39,920
Speaker 1: last Thursday, and um, they were attempting to bring in

2633
02:28:40,040 --> 02:28:45,640
Speaker 1: buses at shift change past the the picketers who walk slowly.

2634
02:28:45,760 --> 02:28:47,000
Speaker 1: You know, they don't want to stop in front of

2635
02:28:47,000 --> 02:28:49,440
Speaker 1: the bus. It's illegal to stop and and you know

2636
02:28:50,240 --> 02:28:52,360
Speaker 1: make it, you know, so that they can't pass through

2637
02:28:52,400 --> 02:28:55,160
Speaker 1: the gates, but they slow them down for a little bit.

2638
02:28:55,520 --> 02:29:00,800
Speaker 1: And um, one gentleman was trying, you know, was standing

2639
02:29:00,840 --> 02:29:04,920
Speaker 1: there and this bus just bumped right into them. You know,

2640
02:29:05,480 --> 02:29:09,040
Speaker 1: there's videos that have been shared through local news of

2641
02:29:09,160 --> 02:29:11,880
Speaker 1: buses knocking down workers as they're trying to cross the

2642
02:29:11,959 --> 02:29:15,400
Speaker 1: picket line. UM. And I you know there are also

2643
02:29:15,800 --> 02:29:18,360
Speaker 1: personal vehicles that go through and it could be the

2644
02:29:18,440 --> 02:29:23,360
Speaker 1: private security that's been hired, it could be managers. UM.

2645
02:29:24,200 --> 02:29:27,920
Speaker 1: But you know they're running through these lines really quickly, dangerously.

2646
02:29:29,240 --> 02:29:32,160
Speaker 1: It's unfortunate, and you know, I don't have an answer

2647
02:29:32,240 --> 02:29:37,360
Speaker 1: for what the best UH solution for that is. You know,

2648
02:29:37,640 --> 02:29:42,920
Speaker 1: but vehicle tax have become sort of more uh, I

2649
02:29:42,959 --> 02:29:45,199
Speaker 1: don't want to say commonplace, but you see them happening

2650
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:48,760
Speaker 1: a lot both at protests last year, and you know,

2651
02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:53,520
Speaker 1: I think Warrior met Cole had some bosses running through

2652
02:29:53,560 --> 02:29:56,880
Speaker 1: the lines and being reckless with their vehicles. You know. Um,

2653
02:29:57,840 --> 02:29:59,920
Speaker 1: the problem is is on the on the back end,

2654
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:04,400
Speaker 1: and the police don't step in when they see these instances,

2655
02:30:05,040 --> 02:30:08,680
Speaker 1: you know. Um. And in fact, last Thursday, when we

2656
02:30:08,840 --> 02:30:13,600
Speaker 1: had a hundred plus motorcyclists from various mc s show

2657
02:30:13,680 --> 02:30:17,720
Speaker 1: up to support the strike, Um, the police were the

2658
02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:20,959
Speaker 1: ones who protected the scabs and made sure that they

2659
02:30:21,000 --> 02:30:23,920
Speaker 1: made it through the picket line. So you know, UM,

2660
02:30:24,680 --> 02:30:27,560
Speaker 1: the answer to that not sure, you know, yeah, I

2661
02:30:27,600 --> 02:30:32,000
Speaker 1: mean that's a time honored police tradition. Yeah, they historically

2662
02:30:32,080 --> 02:30:37,520
Speaker 1: don't don't exist to protect laborers, with the notable exception

2663
02:30:37,760 --> 02:30:41,640
Speaker 1: of of the sheriff and what was it, Mattawan and

2664
02:30:41,800 --> 02:30:45,960
Speaker 1: uh during the um the coal miner strike in West Virginia.

2665
02:30:46,320 --> 02:30:49,960
Speaker 1: M Well yeah they shot him so well yeah, but

2666
02:30:50,040 --> 02:30:55,600
Speaker 1: it shot some people first, yeah, Um, sid Hatfield that

2667
02:30:55,680 --> 02:30:58,920
Speaker 1: was the name. Yeah, I don't know. Um, I've gotten

2668
02:30:58,959 --> 02:31:00,480
Speaker 1: to know some of these folks the line of the

2669
02:31:00,600 --> 02:31:04,160
Speaker 1: last two weeks, and they're just fantastic human beings, you know. Um,

2670
02:31:05,240 --> 02:31:09,120
Speaker 1: they are accommodating and hard working, and they come from

2671
02:31:09,160 --> 02:31:11,400
Speaker 1: all age brackets and they bring their families out and

2672
02:31:12,480 --> 02:31:14,640
Speaker 1: you know they're getting they're getting a raw deal from

2673
02:31:14,720 --> 02:31:18,840
Speaker 1: Kellogg's and UM, so far, the community support has been

2674
02:31:18,840 --> 02:31:23,240
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly positive. Um, there hasn't really been like at the

2675
02:31:23,320 --> 02:31:25,600
Speaker 1: John Deer strike. They're not getting eggs thrown out them,

2676
02:31:25,840 --> 02:31:30,160
Speaker 1: you know. Um, they get a lot more honking and

2677
02:31:30,480 --> 02:31:34,200
Speaker 1: messages of support than they do people driving by to

2678
02:31:35,320 --> 02:31:39,040
Speaker 1: yell at them for uh, you know, being a strike.

2679
02:31:39,280 --> 02:31:42,960
Speaker 1: So that's been nice to see, you know. UM. And

2680
02:31:43,200 --> 02:31:47,480
Speaker 1: actually this weekend on Saturday, UM, there's gonna be a

2681
02:31:48,360 --> 02:31:53,320
Speaker 1: like cool vintage car show cruise around Kellogg's event that

2682
02:31:53,360 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 1: they've got planned the fire departments bringing rigs and um,

2683
02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:02,680
Speaker 1: teamsters fire department is yeah, and the Teamsters are bringing cars,

2684
02:32:02,800 --> 02:32:04,640
Speaker 1: and that there's a bunch of vintage car clubs that

2685
02:32:04,680 --> 02:32:07,360
Speaker 1: are going to be coming out. So you know, those

2686
02:32:07,400 --> 02:32:09,440
Speaker 1: types of things have like really kind of like fired

2687
02:32:09,480 --> 02:32:11,160
Speaker 1: up these people to keep them out on the line

2688
02:32:11,240 --> 02:32:13,120
Speaker 1: as long as they need to be, you know, so

2689
02:32:13,680 --> 02:32:18,520
Speaker 1: communities there for him. One of the things I'm continuing

2690
02:32:18,600 --> 02:32:22,080
Speaker 1: to wonder about is what it takes to close the

2691
02:32:22,240 --> 02:32:27,119
Speaker 1: gap between understanding that you and your colleagues are getting

2692
02:32:27,160 --> 02:32:30,480
Speaker 1: screwed over by this system and understanding that you and

2693
02:32:30,560 --> 02:32:32,600
Speaker 1: all of the other people striking at the same time,

2694
02:32:32,680 --> 02:32:35,560
Speaker 1: and perhaps even a bunch of people not striking are

2695
02:32:35,600 --> 02:32:37,840
Speaker 1: all kind of fighting the same fight. And then maybe

2696
02:32:37,879 --> 02:32:42,560
Speaker 1: there's grander things to achieve than the negotiation of a

2697
02:32:42,640 --> 02:32:45,400
Speaker 1: single contract, because that seems like the big leap that

2698
02:32:46,959 --> 02:32:51,199
Speaker 1: is going to be the real struggle to clear. Uh yeah,

2699
02:32:51,440 --> 02:32:54,000
Speaker 1: you know. Um. I will say that some of the

2700
02:32:54,040 --> 02:32:57,080
Speaker 1: workers are fully aware that this is not just about

2701
02:32:57,120 --> 02:33:01,560
Speaker 1: a single contract negotiation and is actually, you know, more

2702
02:33:01,600 --> 02:33:04,600
Speaker 1: about struggles of the working class against corporate greed and

2703
02:33:05,160 --> 02:33:07,240
Speaker 1: the ways in which the working class gets their asses

2704
02:33:07,280 --> 02:33:10,600
Speaker 1: handed to them all the time, um um. And they

2705
02:33:10,680 --> 02:33:13,800
Speaker 1: know that they know that at some point, perhaps at

2706
02:33:13,840 --> 02:33:16,240
Speaker 1: some point in the future, someone else is going to

2707
02:33:16,320 --> 02:33:20,520
Speaker 1: look at their example and be inspired by it. Right. Um.

2708
02:33:20,640 --> 02:33:24,119
Speaker 1: As far as like maybe I don't know, ideologically speaking

2709
02:33:24,360 --> 02:33:28,880
Speaker 1: or politically speaking, for these folks, it's uh doesn't fit

2710
02:33:29,040 --> 02:33:33,760
Speaker 1: into any sort of ideology leftist or conservative or whatever.

2711
02:33:33,879 --> 02:33:36,240
Speaker 1: Everyone's got their own personal politics. But they don't really

2712
02:33:36,280 --> 02:33:38,360
Speaker 1: talk about it on the line. What they talk about

2713
02:33:39,000 --> 02:33:43,760
Speaker 1: is working class versus ruling class. Um that you know,

2714
02:33:44,000 --> 02:33:48,199
Speaker 1: that's their sense. It's corporate greed, it's um asshole. CEO

2715
02:33:48,320 --> 02:33:51,119
Speaker 1: is making eleven point six million dollars a year while

2716
02:33:51,160 --> 02:33:54,280
Speaker 1: they're struggling to pay their own bills, you know, UM,

2717
02:33:55,040 --> 02:34:00,200
Speaker 1: and and you know that conversation is more common than UM.

2718
02:34:01,560 --> 02:34:04,960
Speaker 1: Trying to fit this into a larger political movement or

2719
02:34:05,000 --> 02:34:09,280
Speaker 1: revolutionary movement, if that makes sense, you know yeah, um,

2720
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:11,480
Speaker 1: But I would say that the vast majority of the workers,

2721
02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:14,800
Speaker 1: regardless of their own personal politics, have a very clear

2722
02:34:14,879 --> 02:34:17,519
Speaker 1: sense of where they sit in terms of class consciousness

2723
02:34:18,360 --> 02:34:21,840
Speaker 1: and understand that this is one of one of the

2724
02:34:22,800 --> 02:34:26,360
Speaker 1: most effective tactics to try and force the hand of

2725
02:34:26,440 --> 02:34:30,080
Speaker 1: these assholes, you know, UM is to withhold work and

2726
02:34:30,160 --> 02:34:34,240
Speaker 1: withhold their labor. So well, this has been great. I

2727
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:36,400
Speaker 1: mean that's everything I had to ask Chris anything else

2728
02:34:37,160 --> 02:34:39,840
Speaker 1: that I have? So there is there a call to

2729
02:34:39,959 --> 02:34:42,520
Speaker 1: action we could have for our listeners or pages people

2730
02:34:42,520 --> 02:34:46,160
Speaker 1: should be following strike fund Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a

2731
02:34:46,200 --> 02:34:48,440
Speaker 1: go fund me and there's a PayPal set up for

2732
02:34:48,520 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 1: the Omaha strikers. I believe the b C t g

2733
02:34:51,520 --> 02:34:56,880
Speaker 1: M International page has like a page of each of

2734
02:34:56,920 --> 02:34:59,240
Speaker 1: the strike funds for each of the four plants. So

2735
02:34:59,440 --> 02:35:01,560
Speaker 1: that might be something that you might want to share

2736
02:35:01,640 --> 02:35:03,280
Speaker 1: with your listeners. I can send you an email with

2737
02:35:03,400 --> 02:35:07,720
Speaker 1: that um, because it's probably going to be easier to do. Um.

2738
02:35:08,280 --> 02:35:11,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, as far as I know, bct GM isn't

2739
02:35:11,080 --> 02:35:14,760
Speaker 1: called for an official boycott of Kellogg's products. However, they

2740
02:35:14,800 --> 02:35:18,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't be mad if you just didn't buy any right now.

2741
02:35:18,640 --> 02:35:20,880
Speaker 1: There was some talk last week that some of the

2742
02:35:20,920 --> 02:35:23,880
Speaker 1: picketers might you know, be flying outside of grocery stores

2743
02:35:23,959 --> 02:35:26,480
Speaker 1: to try and educate the community on what's going on

2744
02:35:26,600 --> 02:35:30,440
Speaker 1: with this strike. But beyond that, they also are concerned

2745
02:35:30,440 --> 02:35:33,000
Speaker 1: about the quality of the food being produced by scabs,

2746
02:35:33,040 --> 02:35:35,080
Speaker 1: So it probably would be healthy for you to not

2747
02:35:36,360 --> 02:35:38,920
Speaker 1: by the food, you know, because I think it wasn't

2748
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:44,480
Speaker 1: what two thousand eighteen during the works a lockout in Memphis,

2749
02:35:45,000 --> 02:35:48,360
Speaker 1: the same company that they brought in then that they're

2750
02:35:48,400 --> 02:35:52,080
Speaker 1: bringing in now, uh piste in the cereal on the line,

2751
02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:56,640
Speaker 1: and it didn't release video of that for two years

2752
02:35:57,000 --> 02:36:00,200
Speaker 1: after the incident, so it ended up in someone's um,

2753
02:36:00,920 --> 02:36:10,560
Speaker 1: you know, gross yikes, yikes, Yeah, I guess, but yeah,

2754
02:36:10,720 --> 02:36:13,920
Speaker 1: that's pretty fun right. Um. So yeah, you know, uh,

2755
02:36:14,520 --> 02:36:18,160
Speaker 1: support your local strike fund and if you are in

2756
02:36:18,440 --> 02:36:21,160
Speaker 1: a city where Kellogg's plant is striking, I'm sure those

2757
02:36:21,200 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 1: workers would love love to to hear from you fill

2758
02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:31,400
Speaker 1: your support. So where and where can our listeners follow you?

2759
02:36:32,760 --> 02:36:36,720
Speaker 1: I am on Twitter primarily at cold Brood Tool. I

2760
02:36:36,760 --> 02:36:40,520
Speaker 1: don't know why I picked that name, but I like it. Yeah, yeah,

2761
02:36:40,680 --> 02:36:43,400
Speaker 1: I got it. I haven't changed that handle since I

2762
02:36:43,440 --> 02:36:47,560
Speaker 1: got into Twitter, so um. But yeah, that's usually where

2763
02:36:47,560 --> 02:36:51,320
Speaker 1: I'm at. Otherwise, you know, I teach locally and had

2764
02:36:51,360 --> 02:36:54,080
Speaker 1: to have a podcast that I'm developing and do a

2765
02:36:54,120 --> 02:36:56,360
Speaker 1: bunch of different projects. So Twitter is the best way

2766
02:36:56,360 --> 02:36:59,080
Speaker 1: to get a hold of me if you have questions. Awesome,

2767
02:37:00,000 --> 02:37:03,760
Speaker 1: all right, thanks for having me on folks, Thanks to us,

2768
02:37:04,480 --> 02:37:06,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for thanks for joining us. I'll be back at

2769
02:37:06,640 --> 02:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the picket line, you know, talking to these folks, and

2770
02:37:09,240 --> 02:37:11,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to do my best to keep this ship

2771
02:37:11,360 --> 02:37:14,080
Speaker 1: in the new cycles so that they aren't forgotten. So awesome.

2772
02:37:14,480 --> 02:37:16,000
Speaker 1: We've got a link to the strike Fund and some

2773
02:37:16,080 --> 02:37:18,320
Speaker 1: other ways to help me in the description. So yeah,

2774
02:37:18,360 --> 02:37:20,360
Speaker 1: this has been it could Happen Here pod. Follow us

2775
02:37:20,360 --> 02:37:25,240
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Instagram at Happened Here pod, and at cools

2776
02:37:25,280 --> 02:37:40,560
Speaker 1: on media for all the rest of our shows. Hey, everybody,

2777
02:37:40,720 --> 02:37:44,080
Speaker 1: Robert Evans here your favorite podcast. Are also legally the

2778
02:37:44,240 --> 02:37:47,880
Speaker 1: only podcaster that that people are allowed to enjoy on

2779
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:51,160
Speaker 1: the internet here to introduce a really exciting episode of

2780
02:37:51,280 --> 02:37:54,360
Speaker 1: it could happen here. So for the last bit of time,

2781
02:37:54,760 --> 02:37:56,160
Speaker 1: I've been in and out of touch with a number

2782
02:37:56,160 --> 02:37:58,720
Speaker 1: of members of the Puget Sound John Brown Club. They

2783
02:37:58,760 --> 02:38:03,120
Speaker 1: have provided armed self defense groups for a couple of

2784
02:38:03,200 --> 02:38:06,520
Speaker 1: different protests in the Washington area over the last year

2785
02:38:06,600 --> 02:38:09,440
Speaker 1: and change, UM, and we wanted to sit down and

2786
02:38:09,520 --> 02:38:12,720
Speaker 1: talk to them about the ideas behind community self defense,

2787
02:38:12,760 --> 02:38:14,960
Speaker 1: how to do it responsibly, how to do it irresponsibly.

2788
02:38:15,480 --> 02:38:19,000
Speaker 1: We also had some discussions with them about the disasters

2789
02:38:19,120 --> 02:38:22,000
Speaker 1: that happened at the Chop Slash Chaz last year. They

2790
02:38:22,040 --> 02:38:24,720
Speaker 1: were not involved with that as an organization UM, but

2791
02:38:24,800 --> 02:38:27,400
Speaker 1: they have some insights on the matter. UM. That's going

2792
02:38:27,440 --> 02:38:30,000
Speaker 1: to be coming at you in a separate episode or

2793
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:32,200
Speaker 1: maybe even a couple of episodes in the near future.

2794
02:38:32,560 --> 02:38:34,800
Speaker 1: Today we're just kind of talking about the concepts of

2795
02:38:35,000 --> 02:38:38,840
Speaker 1: armed community self defense. You know, what's responsible, what's irresponsible,

2796
02:38:38,879 --> 02:38:41,360
Speaker 1: how people should think about it. I think you'll enjoy

2797
02:38:41,520 --> 02:38:44,840
Speaker 1: the conversation here. It is a decent chunk of the

2798
02:38:44,840 --> 02:38:48,280
Speaker 1: folks listening, especially the Portlanders, will have experience with UH

2799
02:38:48,400 --> 02:38:50,920
Speaker 1: and that that Garrison and I have certainly had experienced

2800
02:38:50,959 --> 02:38:55,199
Speaker 1: with it is people at protests declaring themselves security, sometimes

2801
02:38:55,280 --> 02:38:59,200
Speaker 1: even wearing shirts that say security and uh, picking up

2802
02:38:59,200 --> 02:39:01,879
Speaker 1: a variety of what fense, often paintball guns and mace,

2803
02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:07,800
Speaker 1: and using them, often irresponsibly on other protesters, on on bystanders,

2804
02:39:08,320 --> 02:39:11,920
Speaker 1: in the name of of of keeping things safe. And UM,

2805
02:39:12,480 --> 02:39:14,800
Speaker 1: I think we're pretty clear, and I think most reasonable

2806
02:39:14,800 --> 02:39:18,200
Speaker 1: people can see that that's not community self defense. But

2807
02:39:18,360 --> 02:39:21,840
Speaker 1: often those people certainly claim that what they're doing is

2808
02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:26,520
Speaker 1: community self defense. UM. And I'm specifically wanting to start

2809
02:39:26,640 --> 02:39:29,440
Speaker 1: by getting a kind of a range of definitions from folks,

2810
02:39:30,080 --> 02:39:32,880
Speaker 1: as you are, all people who have engaged in community

2811
02:39:32,959 --> 02:39:37,080
Speaker 1: self defense, UM, and particularly armed community self defense. What

2812
02:39:37,200 --> 02:39:41,360
Speaker 1: do you see as the actual role of community self

2813
02:39:41,480 --> 02:39:44,280
Speaker 1: defense and and how should it look as opposed to,

2814
02:39:44,560 --> 02:39:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, a guy with a paintball gun yelling at

2815
02:39:46,800 --> 02:39:50,240
Speaker 1: kids for tagging a window. Ray you wanna you want

2816
02:39:50,240 --> 02:39:52,240
Speaker 1: to kick us off with an answer there, I do.

2817
02:39:53,440 --> 02:39:57,560
Speaker 1: Community defense should be part of the a broad health

2818
02:39:57,640 --> 02:40:01,279
Speaker 1: and safety infrastructure set up for or a protest movement

2819
02:40:01,440 --> 02:40:05,720
Speaker 1: or a community. Being deliberately vague here, but specifically, armed

2820
02:40:05,879 --> 02:40:11,080
Speaker 1: community defense deals with mitigating lethal and egregious harm to

2821
02:40:11,520 --> 02:40:16,000
Speaker 1: members of a community. The goal is forced and foremost prevention,

2822
02:40:16,400 --> 02:40:20,920
Speaker 1: mitigation and control of those threats. In my mind, ideally

2823
02:40:21,000 --> 02:40:25,400
Speaker 1: community defense would involve no one doing anything, carrying around

2824
02:40:25,440 --> 02:40:28,520
Speaker 1: a bunch of really heavy ship and nothing happening, but

2825
02:40:28,920 --> 02:40:32,520
Speaker 1: deterring those from harming others. In the absolute worst case,

2826
02:40:32,640 --> 02:40:35,040
Speaker 1: it means you have to actually do something that can

2827
02:40:35,080 --> 02:40:38,120
Speaker 1: get messy pretty quickly. I want to circle back to

2828
02:40:38,160 --> 02:40:39,760
Speaker 1: a couple of things. Actually, I do have one one

2829
02:40:39,840 --> 02:40:41,680
Speaker 1: quick follow up question for you before we move on

2830
02:40:41,720 --> 02:40:44,879
Speaker 1: to the next people. Ray. When you say like carrying

2831
02:40:44,920 --> 02:40:47,640
Speaker 1: heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering, what do you think

2832
02:40:48,520 --> 02:40:50,800
Speaker 1: I'm interested in you and I'll probably ask other people

2833
02:40:50,840 --> 02:40:52,840
Speaker 1: to follow up when it when it comes to carrying

2834
02:40:52,879 --> 02:40:55,680
Speaker 1: and bringing a firearm to either a protest situation some

2835
02:40:55,760 --> 02:40:59,240
Speaker 1: other community self defense situation. What it is going through

2836
02:40:59,280 --> 02:41:01,560
Speaker 1: your head when you do determine what to bring, Because

2837
02:41:01,680 --> 02:41:04,119
Speaker 1: I've seen people carry a variety of different guns from

2838
02:41:04,160 --> 02:41:06,520
Speaker 1: like shotguns and in one case is of mos and

2839
02:41:06,600 --> 02:41:10,120
Speaker 1: negot to a r S or handguns. Um, what do

2840
02:41:10,200 --> 02:41:13,280
Speaker 1: you think is kind of the the logic train I

2841
02:41:13,320 --> 02:41:15,320
Speaker 1: guess that you would take, Like, what is the appropriate

2842
02:41:15,400 --> 02:41:20,360
Speaker 1: tool to bring like in this situation, So that depends

2843
02:41:20,560 --> 02:41:23,280
Speaker 1: entirely on what the anticipated threat is and how one

2844
02:41:23,360 --> 02:41:27,680
Speaker 1: plans to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no correct answer

2845
02:41:27,760 --> 02:41:31,840
Speaker 1: for that. Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal or regious

2846
02:41:31,840 --> 02:41:34,520
Speaker 1: bodily harm is not a firearm at all. Indeed, firearms

2847
02:41:34,560 --> 02:41:38,200
Speaker 1: are applicable in an extraordinarily narrow range of scenarios, but

2848
02:41:38,320 --> 02:41:42,520
Speaker 1: those range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme measures

2849
02:41:42,560 --> 02:41:46,960
Speaker 1: to be mitigated. So it depends on what if you

2850
02:41:47,040 --> 02:41:49,880
Speaker 1: are considering bringing firem what is the firearm good at

2851
02:41:50,080 --> 02:41:52,480
Speaker 1: And then you get into the minutia of what firearm

2852
02:41:52,560 --> 02:41:55,039
Speaker 1: is good for what thing, which depends on your legal

2853
02:41:55,120 --> 02:41:58,160
Speaker 1: context and particular threat. But I think one has to

2854
02:41:58,240 --> 02:42:00,520
Speaker 1: start with the question is is the thing I'm bringing

2855
02:42:00,600 --> 02:42:03,560
Speaker 1: able to mitigate the type of harm I might see

2856
02:42:03,600 --> 02:42:06,520
Speaker 1: happen to my community? And to get a little bit

2857
02:42:06,600 --> 02:42:10,160
Speaker 1: less vague, there are people who think that bringing a

2858
02:42:10,200 --> 02:42:12,240
Speaker 1: shotgun is a good way to stop a car speeding

2859
02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:16,360
Speaker 1: into a crowd, when it clearly isn't right. So one

2860
02:42:16,440 --> 02:42:18,360
Speaker 1: has to make sure that the tool, whatever they have

2861
02:42:18,720 --> 02:42:22,280
Speaker 1: is you is appropriate for the task at hand and

2862
02:42:22,400 --> 02:42:26,119
Speaker 1: the threat you anticipate. That was great. Thank you, Ray,

2863
02:42:26,320 --> 02:42:28,280
Speaker 1: Um Katie you want to you want to give us

2864
02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:31,000
Speaker 1: your answer next. I agree with everything that Race said,

2865
02:42:31,280 --> 02:42:34,280
Speaker 1: and the only addition that I'd make is that, UM,

2866
02:42:35,000 --> 02:42:38,480
Speaker 1: it's specifically in our in our cases generally doesn't mean

2867
02:42:39,680 --> 02:42:45,800
Speaker 1: standing between protesters and police, but more guiding protesters, you know,

2868
02:42:45,879 --> 02:42:51,520
Speaker 1: our activists or participants away from potential situations of harm.

2869
02:42:53,080 --> 02:42:55,560
Speaker 1: It's like, we can't stand in front of police and

2870
02:42:55,879 --> 02:42:59,000
Speaker 1: stop cops from doing their job. Like that just gets

2871
02:42:59,040 --> 02:43:03,120
Speaker 1: you arrested and uh or worse or worse, and that's

2872
02:43:03,160 --> 02:43:07,000
Speaker 1: not what we're here for. So yeah, that's all I

2873
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:09,720
Speaker 1: wanted to could you, because I have chatted with a

2874
02:43:09,760 --> 02:43:12,440
Speaker 1: couple of your number about this, about um kind of

2875
02:43:12,520 --> 02:43:15,959
Speaker 1: the role that that an armed contingent at a protest

2876
02:43:16,040 --> 02:43:19,320
Speaker 1: can play in kind of allowing an avenue of retreat,

2877
02:43:19,760 --> 02:43:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, especially during confrontations with non state actors. UM,

2878
02:43:24,920 --> 02:43:27,960
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of what you um, you know,

2879
02:43:28,080 --> 02:43:31,160
Speaker 1: you're not You're not to kind of as you did,

2880
02:43:31,240 --> 02:43:33,520
Speaker 1: kind of kind of clarify this conception. You don't see

2881
02:43:33,520 --> 02:43:35,879
Speaker 1: your role as standing in front of the protesters between

2882
02:43:35,920 --> 02:43:38,040
Speaker 1: them and the cops and like presenting a threat to

2883
02:43:38,120 --> 02:43:41,080
Speaker 1: the cops. What is the utility and kind of an

2884
02:43:41,120 --> 02:43:44,040
Speaker 1: active protest situation that you've seen of of of what

2885
02:43:44,200 --> 02:43:48,680
Speaker 1: y'all do. So that's a good question. And um, if

2886
02:43:48,720 --> 02:43:52,720
Speaker 1: we're doing our job well, then most people think we

2887
02:43:52,760 --> 02:43:54,800
Speaker 1: don't do anything at all. Um. A lot of what

2888
02:43:54,920 --> 02:43:59,840
Speaker 1: we do is we're watching external potential threats to my

2889
02:44:00,120 --> 02:44:02,200
Speaker 1: try to come in. The most common factor these days

2890
02:44:02,280 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 1: is a car um but generally we're looking for folks

2891
02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:08,880
Speaker 1: that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're not

2892
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:11,279
Speaker 1: putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get cornered

2893
02:44:11,400 --> 02:44:15,320
Speaker 1: or trapped and and really you know, just trying to

2894
02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:19,360
Speaker 1: help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers to

2895
02:44:19,560 --> 02:44:22,720
Speaker 1: keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way. So

2896
02:44:24,000 --> 02:44:26,920
Speaker 1: as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, that

2897
02:44:27,200 --> 02:44:30,080
Speaker 1: that ranges from everything from like angry people who are

2898
02:44:30,160 --> 02:44:32,440
Speaker 1: just angry and trying to go home and getting blocked

2899
02:44:32,480 --> 02:44:36,400
Speaker 1: by a protest too, people who are who are actively

2900
02:44:36,480 --> 02:44:40,000
Speaker 1: looking to do harm to a movement that happens to

2901
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:44,280
Speaker 1: be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe it's

2902
02:44:44,320 --> 02:44:47,760
Speaker 1: something as as as specific as a person who's looking

2903
02:44:47,840 --> 02:44:53,400
Speaker 1: to specifically do harm to uh, organizers. So most of

2904
02:44:53,480 --> 02:44:56,879
Speaker 1: the time it's we're focused outward and and just making

2905
02:44:56,920 --> 02:44:59,160
Speaker 1: sure that our exits are are covered and that we

2906
02:44:59,320 --> 02:45:05,440
Speaker 1: have way to get people away from potential bad situations. Um,

2907
02:45:05,640 --> 02:45:08,280
Speaker 1: that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon you want to

2908
02:45:08,320 --> 02:45:12,560
Speaker 1: give your answer, No, absolutely, thanks. I would add there's

2909
02:45:12,640 --> 02:45:16,160
Speaker 1: a really critical element to community defense that begins and

2910
02:45:16,280 --> 02:45:19,440
Speaker 1: ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference

2911
02:45:19,520 --> 02:45:23,800
Speaker 1: between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being

2912
02:45:23,920 --> 02:45:29,240
Speaker 1: there as an intentional community support where the community plays

2913
02:45:29,240 --> 02:45:32,440
Speaker 1: a role in you being there and also has some

2914
02:45:32,600 --> 02:45:35,880
Speaker 1: influence on that question of what are you carrying and

2915
02:45:36,000 --> 02:45:38,560
Speaker 1: what is the response. I think it's just really important

2916
02:45:38,840 --> 02:45:43,600
Speaker 1: that you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and

2917
02:45:44,800 --> 02:45:48,520
Speaker 1: that's a huge part of our collective work is making

2918
02:45:48,600 --> 02:45:56,519
Speaker 1: sure that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves

2919
02:45:56,879 --> 02:46:01,400
Speaker 1: with the desires of the community group that has asked

2920
02:46:01,480 --> 02:46:05,119
Speaker 1: us to be there, also filtering it through our judgment

2921
02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:09,000
Speaker 1: as to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances, using

2922
02:46:09,080 --> 02:46:11,920
Speaker 1: some of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were

2923
02:46:11,920 --> 02:46:19,800
Speaker 1: answering and UM, what do you see as like like

2924
02:46:20,240 --> 02:46:22,720
Speaker 1: this is something that that I kind of gets to

2925
02:46:22,800 --> 02:46:24,480
Speaker 1: both what what is an issue with me? And kind

2926
02:46:24,480 --> 02:46:26,840
Speaker 1: of the folks who declare themselves a security, which is

2927
02:46:26,879 --> 02:46:29,600
Speaker 1: that they're often kind of separating themselves from the rest

2928
02:46:29,640 --> 02:46:32,360
Speaker 1: of the movement, specifically in a cop like way to

2929
02:46:32,400 --> 02:46:34,240
Speaker 1: say like, well, it's my job to keep you saving,

2930
02:46:34,240 --> 02:46:36,360
Speaker 1: even though that means or it's my job to keep

2931
02:46:36,400 --> 02:46:39,199
Speaker 1: things order leaven if that means attacking some other people

2932
02:46:39,240 --> 02:46:42,080
Speaker 1: at this protest. One of the things that Scott Crowe

2933
02:46:42,760 --> 02:46:45,800
Speaker 1: in is uh in Setting Sights, which is a really

2934
02:46:45,840 --> 02:46:50,040
Speaker 1: good book on community self defense, does is set out that, um,

2935
02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:54,160
Speaker 1: a key aspect of community self defense, as you said,

2936
02:46:54,240 --> 02:46:57,000
Speaker 1: is that you're like a member of the community. And

2937
02:46:57,400 --> 02:47:00,440
Speaker 1: I think, I guess the question I have is because

2938
02:47:00,560 --> 02:47:02,840
Speaker 1: guns are what they are and have the kind of

2939
02:47:02,920 --> 02:47:07,400
Speaker 1: cultural weight that they have, it's you people are always

2940
02:47:07,520 --> 02:47:10,640
Speaker 1: people who accept being armed as an aspect of their

2941
02:47:10,680 --> 02:47:14,320
Speaker 1: personality are always going to be kind of fighting having

2942
02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:19,800
Speaker 1: that dominate their personality. And it wouldn't. It's clearly something

2943
02:47:19,920 --> 02:47:22,600
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have an issue with. The

2944
02:47:22,720 --> 02:47:25,200
Speaker 1: thing that is important is to be a member of

2945
02:47:25,280 --> 02:47:27,960
Speaker 1: the community who happens to be armed, as opposed to

2946
02:47:28,760 --> 02:47:32,760
Speaker 1: an armed activist whose whose role is being armed right,

2947
02:47:32,920 --> 02:47:35,600
Speaker 1: Like I I mean, do you agree with what I'm

2948
02:47:35,600 --> 02:47:37,280
Speaker 1: saying or kind of like I'm wondering how you think

2949
02:47:37,320 --> 02:47:38,920
Speaker 1: about it, because this is something that I'm kind of

2950
02:47:39,000 --> 02:47:41,640
Speaker 1: going around in my head about as well, because it's

2951
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:44,080
Speaker 1: it's it's clearly where a lot of the problems happen,

2952
02:47:44,200 --> 02:47:47,320
Speaker 1: right that the gun becomes central to the identity of

2953
02:47:47,400 --> 02:47:50,040
Speaker 1: the people who bring it, which is something that happens

2954
02:47:50,040 --> 02:47:54,720
Speaker 1: to the cops. Yes, and also the mentality of separating

2955
02:47:54,760 --> 02:48:00,400
Speaker 1: yourself from the community and not being part of the

2956
02:48:00,480 --> 02:48:03,480
Speaker 1: purpose of being there. And so I'll defer to my

2957
02:48:04,200 --> 02:48:07,200
Speaker 1: my comrades here to go a little bit further with it,

2958
02:48:07,280 --> 02:48:10,879
Speaker 1: but I would just say that there's a significant difference

2959
02:48:11,040 --> 02:48:16,560
Speaker 1: between armed community defense and having an intentional presence of

2960
02:48:16,720 --> 02:48:22,320
Speaker 1: armed community defense at an event or protest and being

2961
02:48:22,879 --> 02:48:25,520
Speaker 1: a person who shows up with a gun. Those are

2962
02:48:25,600 --> 02:48:29,240
Speaker 1: two really different things, and so I think that's the

2963
02:48:29,800 --> 02:48:34,520
Speaker 1: that's one of the benefits of being part of an

2964
02:48:34,720 --> 02:48:44,800
Speaker 1: organization that does this collectively, with accountability, with training, with

2965
02:48:45,879 --> 02:48:48,720
Speaker 1: a known role in the community, so that there is

2966
02:48:49,959 --> 02:48:53,080
Speaker 1: um consistency among what we do and why we do it,

2967
02:48:53,520 --> 02:48:59,200
Speaker 1: and history of folks understanding that if we're present somewhere,

2968
02:48:59,240 --> 02:49:02,200
Speaker 1: it's because we've been asked to be there, and that

2969
02:49:02,400 --> 02:49:06,840
Speaker 1: what we're doing there is aligned with and approved of

2970
02:49:07,160 --> 02:49:10,880
Speaker 1: by the people who are organizing the event. And then

2971
02:49:11,200 --> 02:49:13,520
Speaker 1: I'll let somebody else who's more eloquent than I am

2972
02:49:14,200 --> 02:49:18,000
Speaker 1: uh answered that further if they feel like they can. Yeah,

2973
02:49:18,040 --> 02:49:20,400
Speaker 1: I think NOVA is up now. If you wanted to

2974
02:49:20,959 --> 02:49:23,440
Speaker 1: give your answer and kind of also comment on what

2975
02:49:23,600 --> 02:49:25,840
Speaker 1: we've been chatting about, what Channon and I were just

2976
02:49:25,920 --> 02:49:29,280
Speaker 1: chatting about, Nova, Hi, thank you so much. UM. I

2977
02:49:29,400 --> 02:49:32,920
Speaker 1: would say that folks like Ray and Katie and of

2978
02:49:33,040 --> 02:49:35,920
Speaker 1: course Shannon really put it very sustinctly, very well together

2979
02:49:36,200 --> 02:49:37,840
Speaker 1: and answered a lot of the things that I was

2980
02:49:37,879 --> 02:49:40,080
Speaker 1: gonna already provided things that I was going to add

2981
02:49:40,160 --> 02:49:44,760
Speaker 1: to it. But um, the specifically the part about the

2982
02:49:44,879 --> 02:49:50,240
Speaker 1: gun becoming the driving factor in somebody's presence at the protest,

2983
02:49:50,360 --> 02:49:53,920
Speaker 1: or the gun being a part of the personality of

2984
02:49:54,080 --> 02:49:57,960
Speaker 1: somebody who's going to appoint themselves as a guardian towards

2985
02:49:58,000 --> 02:50:00,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of people, I would I would say that

2986
02:50:01,320 --> 02:50:07,000
Speaker 1: with any responsible community community defense role within a protest context,

2987
02:50:07,520 --> 02:50:10,760
Speaker 1: that the act of being a body in between a

2988
02:50:10,920 --> 02:50:15,360
Speaker 1: threat and your community has to come first, and that

2989
02:50:15,480 --> 02:50:20,840
Speaker 1: the that the firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh,

2990
02:50:21,200 --> 02:50:24,680
Speaker 1: there there was an incident on the night of protest

2991
02:50:24,760 --> 02:50:28,320
Speaker 1: where uh many of us were at risk of being

2992
02:50:28,440 --> 02:50:33,120
Speaker 1: harmed by a vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a

2993
02:50:33,280 --> 02:50:36,880
Speaker 1: firearm would not have mitigated that threat terribly well, but

2994
02:50:37,120 --> 02:50:41,680
Speaker 1: the idea of being in between a threat such as

2995
02:50:41,760 --> 02:50:45,560
Speaker 1: that and somebody else who is possibly more vulnerable than

2996
02:50:45,640 --> 02:50:49,360
Speaker 1: you are bore a lot more of a significance on that.

2997
02:50:49,520 --> 02:50:53,720
Speaker 1: So the firearm being there to respond to a threat

2998
02:50:53,760 --> 02:50:57,360
Speaker 1: and perhaps mitigate an active, ongoing, deadly threat to your

2999
02:50:57,400 --> 02:51:00,560
Speaker 1: community is one thing, But I think the imary thing

3000
02:51:00,720 --> 02:51:04,320
Speaker 1: is going to be just putting yourself in harm's way

3001
02:51:04,840 --> 02:51:09,000
Speaker 1: so that you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly

3002
02:51:09,040 --> 02:51:11,560
Speaker 1: more vulnerable than you. If that makes sense, that should

3003
02:51:11,560 --> 02:51:15,400
Speaker 1: be the primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid

3004
02:51:16,400 --> 02:51:20,920
Speaker 1: letting that turn people doing that into feeling like a

3005
02:51:21,080 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 1: separate and even elevated chunk of the community, Because that again,

3006
02:51:26,520 --> 02:51:28,680
Speaker 1: that's what happens with police. You know, this idea that

3007
02:51:28,760 --> 02:51:30,400
Speaker 1: it starts as like, well, we're here to serve and

3008
02:51:30,480 --> 02:51:34,959
Speaker 1: protect um, and that that through a variety of toxic

3009
02:51:35,080 --> 02:51:37,760
Speaker 1: alchemies turns into this idea of the thin blue line.

3010
02:51:38,800 --> 02:51:41,120
Speaker 1: What is the way you push back on that? How

3011
02:51:41,160 --> 02:51:44,760
Speaker 1: do you actually stop it from going from I'm someone

3012
02:51:44,800 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 1: who is accepting personal responsibility for the well being of

3013
02:51:47,840 --> 02:51:50,440
Speaker 1: the people around me um and putting my body in

3014
02:51:50,480 --> 02:51:54,200
Speaker 1: between them on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I

3015
02:51:54,560 --> 02:51:57,240
Speaker 1: it's my job to protect people, to it's my job

3016
02:51:57,360 --> 02:51:59,800
Speaker 1: to you know, from turning that into kind of this

3017
02:52:00,040 --> 02:52:03,760
Speaker 1: idea of I think stewardship in some ways that like

3018
02:52:03,879 --> 02:52:06,640
Speaker 1: some people in law enforcement have where like you're there,

3019
02:52:06,920 --> 02:52:09,640
Speaker 1: they they get to tell you what to do because

3020
02:52:09,680 --> 02:52:12,120
Speaker 1: that's their responsibility to keep you safe. Like, how do

3021
02:52:12,200 --> 02:52:15,440
Speaker 1: you how do you stop that attitude from evolving? Because

3022
02:52:15,480 --> 02:52:19,480
Speaker 1: I've seen it happen to people fairly quickly when they

3023
02:52:19,560 --> 02:52:22,520
Speaker 1: put themselves in some of these situations sometimes and it's

3024
02:52:22,520 --> 02:52:25,760
Speaker 1: certainly not like most people, but it is. It doesn't

3025
02:52:25,840 --> 02:52:30,600
Speaker 1: take a long time for somebody to like especially if

3026
02:52:30,600 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 1: they're vulnerable, to get in that position. So how do you,

3027
02:52:33,280 --> 02:52:36,200
Speaker 1: especially if you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right,

3028
02:52:36,240 --> 02:52:39,840
Speaker 1: you're an organization made up of people who come to

3029
02:52:40,000 --> 02:52:42,200
Speaker 1: do this, how do you fight back against that? Like?

3030
02:52:42,280 --> 02:52:46,240
Speaker 1: What is the active kind of counter programming, if you will,

3031
02:52:48,520 --> 02:52:52,880
Speaker 1: I'd see I don't have an easy answer for that question,

3032
02:52:53,320 --> 02:52:55,440
Speaker 1: to be completely honest with you, but I say that

3033
02:52:55,520 --> 02:52:58,879
Speaker 1: the closest thing uh to an answer to that would

3034
02:52:58,920 --> 02:53:04,200
Speaker 1: be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the

3035
02:53:04,440 --> 02:53:08,600
Speaker 1: task that was acts asked of you by the group

3036
02:53:08,680 --> 02:53:12,520
Speaker 1: that asked you there. Um. So if somebody asked us

3037
02:53:12,560 --> 02:53:15,200
Speaker 1: to be a part of a march and to simply

3038
02:53:15,280 --> 02:53:19,360
Speaker 1: look outward for external threats and to be willing to

3039
02:53:19,480 --> 02:53:21,880
Speaker 1: respond to those threats that need be again putting our

3040
02:53:21,959 --> 02:53:25,000
Speaker 1: bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond

3041
02:53:25,080 --> 02:53:30,240
Speaker 1: to lethal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. Um,

3042
02:53:31,360 --> 02:53:35,800
Speaker 1: I'd say that the ultimate accountability rest with the people

3043
02:53:35,840 --> 02:53:40,960
Speaker 1: who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no

3044
02:53:41,160 --> 02:53:44,440
Speaker 1: easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like.

3045
02:53:45,600 --> 02:53:48,840
Speaker 1: But you know, in several layers, that would start with

3046
02:53:49,600 --> 02:53:52,600
Speaker 1: your teammates, the people who are part of your organization

3047
02:53:52,680 --> 02:53:55,280
Speaker 1: that asked you to be that is asked to be there.

3048
02:53:55,360 --> 02:53:59,760
Speaker 1: So other members of of j B g C are

3049
02:54:00,120 --> 02:54:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, definitely going to try and keep each other accountable.

3050
02:54:04,480 --> 02:54:09,520
Speaker 1: But it's also the larger the the the the the

3051
02:54:09,640 --> 02:54:12,680
Speaker 1: larger contingent of the action that you're a part of. Uh,

3052
02:54:12,840 --> 02:54:17,160
Speaker 1: to be ultimately willing to back down from whatever you're

3053
02:54:17,480 --> 02:54:21,800
Speaker 1: doing if a concern is voiced by that community. And

3054
02:54:22,760 --> 02:54:27,600
Speaker 1: I wish I had a better way to word that, uh,

3055
02:54:28,080 --> 02:54:33,800
Speaker 1: But just the the the the constant vigilance within oneself

3056
02:54:33,959 --> 02:54:37,640
Speaker 1: against overstepping the boundaries that were clearly set by people

3057
02:54:37,680 --> 02:54:41,600
Speaker 1: who invited you into a space. UM. That's really the

3058
02:54:41,680 --> 02:54:43,600
Speaker 1: best answer I can get for that at the moment

3059
02:54:44,040 --> 02:54:47,680
Speaker 1: without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, for for one thing,

3060
02:54:47,920 --> 02:54:50,600
Speaker 1: I think this is the reason we're having this conversation,

3061
02:54:50,840 --> 02:54:52,720
Speaker 1: and I'm getting ahead of us a little, is because

3062
02:54:53,560 --> 02:54:56,240
Speaker 1: this is still very much a developing thing on the

3063
02:54:56,400 --> 02:54:59,200
Speaker 1: left and and I don't think anybody has all the

3064
02:54:59,280 --> 02:55:02,360
Speaker 1: answers on how to do it well, although I think

3065
02:55:02,440 --> 02:55:06,840
Speaker 1: an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. So

3066
02:55:07,120 --> 02:55:09,400
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reason for the conversation,

3067
02:55:09,560 --> 02:55:12,320
Speaker 1: is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do

3068
02:55:12,480 --> 02:55:15,280
Speaker 1: this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on

3069
02:55:15,400 --> 02:55:20,280
Speaker 1: something important there when you talked about the that you're

3070
02:55:20,320 --> 02:55:23,920
Speaker 1: there at the invitation of a community, as opposed to

3071
02:55:24,680 --> 02:55:28,039
Speaker 1: you are there too to police or to maintain order.

3072
02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:31,240
Speaker 1: Like the idea of approaching it as if you were

3073
02:55:31,320 --> 02:55:34,840
Speaker 1: to guest strikes me as a really good idea, UM,

3074
02:55:35,360 --> 02:55:40,800
Speaker 1: in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint,

3075
02:55:40,879 --> 02:55:43,640
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this

3076
02:55:43,760 --> 02:55:46,600
Speaker 1: community as their guest, as opposed to I am here

3077
02:55:46,640 --> 02:55:51,960
Speaker 1: to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's

3078
02:55:51,959 --> 02:55:54,560
Speaker 1: a That's a perfect way to summarize what I was

3079
02:55:54,600 --> 02:55:57,520
Speaker 1: trying to go for with that one. I think that

3080
02:55:57,760 --> 02:56:02,240
Speaker 1: the ultimately to be averse to being put in a

3081
02:56:02,280 --> 02:56:06,000
Speaker 1: position of power or authority is the best way to

3082
02:56:06,160 --> 02:56:11,120
Speaker 1: check against that um and to simply be a servant

3083
02:56:11,520 --> 02:56:14,800
Speaker 1: to the community that is again inviting you into that

3084
02:56:15,000 --> 02:56:21,560
Speaker 1: space and putting yourself in a m servile is not

3085
02:56:21,680 --> 02:56:23,960
Speaker 1: the right word. I'm looking for a different word for that,

3086
02:56:24,200 --> 02:56:29,600
Speaker 1: but a a position of service, a true position like

3087
02:56:29,760 --> 02:56:34,880
Speaker 1: like yes, what what what community defense should be is

3088
02:56:35,000 --> 02:56:38,760
Speaker 1: ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward

3089
02:56:39,080 --> 02:56:46,080
Speaker 1: of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great,

3090
02:56:46,360 --> 02:56:49,400
Speaker 1: I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something

3091
02:56:49,440 --> 02:56:53,080
Speaker 1: to say there. Yeah, I'll finish that thought in my

3092
02:56:53,200 --> 02:56:55,800
Speaker 1: notes under the section of what happens when things go right.

3093
02:56:56,440 --> 02:56:59,160
Speaker 1: I think one thing that can go right is normalizing

3094
02:56:59,600 --> 02:57:03,760
Speaker 1: that firearms are just a thing that can be around

3095
02:57:04,040 --> 02:57:06,840
Speaker 1: and they don't have to be your entire ass personality,

3096
02:57:07,000 --> 02:57:10,040
Speaker 1: nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed,

3097
02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:12,600
Speaker 1: I think one of the successes there are not many,

3098
02:57:12,720 --> 02:57:17,320
Speaker 1: but of community defense in the Chop was normalizing the

3099
02:57:17,440 --> 02:57:19,640
Speaker 1: idea that people can have firearms and they're not an

3100
02:57:19,680 --> 02:57:23,800
Speaker 1: inherent threat. UM. Thinking of people who are armed often

3101
02:57:23,879 --> 02:57:26,360
Speaker 1: and we're pointed out routinely, and it was like, Nah,

3102
02:57:26,760 --> 02:57:29,800
Speaker 1: he's still he's He's a cool dude, you know, just

3103
02:57:29,959 --> 02:57:33,640
Speaker 1: a guy, just like the things like, you know, do

3104
02:57:33,680 --> 02:57:35,400
Speaker 1: you really think the black guy is going to shoot

3105
02:57:35,480 --> 02:57:37,840
Speaker 1: up the top? I don't know that. He's totally fine.

3106
02:57:37,879 --> 02:57:40,600
Speaker 1: I know him. His jokes are great. Um a goat

3107
02:57:40,640 --> 02:57:44,240
Speaker 1: an overhearing of these kind of conversations, it helps, you know,

3108
02:57:44,360 --> 02:57:46,840
Speaker 1: firearms become like part of the tapestry of life, not

3109
02:57:46,959 --> 02:57:50,480
Speaker 1: this differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something of

3110
02:57:50,560 --> 02:57:52,840
Speaker 1: rape your personality around. It's just like they're there and

3111
02:57:53,080 --> 02:57:55,720
Speaker 1: that they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or different.

3112
02:57:56,320 --> 02:57:58,720
Speaker 1: And I think that normalizing effect is one of the

3113
02:57:58,840 --> 02:58:01,880
Speaker 1: successes community can have and I'm happy to talk about

3114
02:58:01,920 --> 02:58:04,360
Speaker 1: other things the community defense can normalize, but I wanted

3115
02:58:04,400 --> 02:58:07,440
Speaker 1: to emphasize the you just have a firearm. You're not

3116
02:58:07,520 --> 02:58:09,360
Speaker 1: talking about it, you're not touching it, you're not thinking

3117
02:58:09,400 --> 02:58:11,720
Speaker 1: about it. You know, people have that. It's just around

3118
02:58:11,879 --> 02:58:14,080
Speaker 1: And it became pretty chill, and there was kind of

3119
02:58:14,280 --> 02:58:17,600
Speaker 1: the Chop specifically, there's an area where firearms just kind

3120
02:58:17,640 --> 02:58:21,800
Speaker 1: of were around and nothing happened really and that was

3121
02:58:21,920 --> 02:58:26,440
Speaker 1: kind of wonderful in my mind. So, um, from my

3122
02:58:26,480 --> 02:58:32,440
Speaker 1: experience with with the club, Uh, it's basically the even

3123
02:58:32,480 --> 02:58:35,119
Speaker 1: though we are the John Brown Gun Club, the guns

3124
02:58:35,560 --> 02:58:40,280
Speaker 1: are like the last thing that we even consider. Like

3125
02:58:40,959 --> 02:58:43,280
Speaker 1: it would technically if we were to actually rename the club,

3126
02:58:43,320 --> 02:58:46,160
Speaker 1: it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. Um,

3127
02:58:46,360 --> 02:58:50,520
Speaker 1: we would like most of the time any um, any

3128
02:58:50,640 --> 02:58:52,760
Speaker 1: anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the

3129
02:58:52,840 --> 02:58:55,120
Speaker 1: Chop and there were some weird stuff going on, like

3130
02:58:55,800 --> 02:59:01,760
Speaker 1: Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew, people were um using their

3131
02:59:01,840 --> 02:59:06,280
Speaker 1: skills to um to to d escalate situation, to calm

3132
02:59:06,360 --> 02:59:08,880
Speaker 1: the calm out, calm down individuals to make sure that

3133
02:59:09,560 --> 02:59:14,560
Speaker 1: that whatever hostility they have would be abated through just

3134
02:59:15,080 --> 02:59:19,520
Speaker 1: verbal verbal communications talked about that in a little more detail,

3135
02:59:19,560 --> 02:59:20,840
Speaker 1: because I don't know who. I mean, I was at

3136
02:59:20,920 --> 02:59:23,040
Speaker 1: the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who brother Matthew was,

3137
02:59:23,160 --> 02:59:26,320
Speaker 1: or like what incident you're talking about. Something is a

3138
02:59:26,600 --> 02:59:31,000
Speaker 1: guy who shows up up here all around the Seattle area.

3139
02:59:31,280 --> 02:59:33,720
Speaker 1: And also I think he's even shut up in Portland

3140
02:59:33,760 --> 02:59:37,279
Speaker 1: as well. Um got preacher guy, gets in everybody's faces,

3141
02:59:38,000 --> 02:59:42,720
Speaker 1: usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um.

3142
02:59:43,040 --> 02:59:47,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who

3143
02:59:47,480 --> 02:59:51,960
Speaker 1: drives off a confrontation and uses the Bible as as

3144
02:59:52,040 --> 02:59:57,520
Speaker 1: his mode of of operation. But um, I remember distinctly

3145
02:59:57,640 --> 03:00:01,560
Speaker 1: at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting

3146
03:00:01,600 --> 03:00:06,199
Speaker 1: into it with people. But everybody who was around tried

3147
03:00:06,320 --> 03:00:08,960
Speaker 1: to talk him down. They tried to chill make him

3148
03:00:09,040 --> 03:00:13,480
Speaker 1: chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention

3149
03:00:13,720 --> 03:00:19,840
Speaker 1: and just being weird. But um, but in the end,

3150
03:00:20,000 --> 03:00:23,640
Speaker 1: um like that's just like that happens more often with

3151
03:00:24,440 --> 03:00:29,959
Speaker 1: protests situations or marked situations or direct action situations where

3152
03:00:30,160 --> 03:00:33,840
Speaker 1: we're asked to be a part of it by the organizers.

3153
03:00:34,080 --> 03:00:37,400
Speaker 1: And and as um Ray had mentioned, and Nova had

3154
03:00:37,440 --> 03:00:41,880
Speaker 1: mentioned um. We like we're asked to be there and

3155
03:00:42,320 --> 03:00:44,200
Speaker 1: we're not just asked and then we suddenly show up,

3156
03:00:44,280 --> 03:00:48,119
Speaker 1: Like we get involved with the people who are organizing

3157
03:00:48,320 --> 03:00:51,480
Speaker 1: any of the partners that they that they that they

3158
03:00:51,800 --> 03:00:54,880
Speaker 1: get that they bring into it. We try to learn

3159
03:00:55,640 --> 03:00:58,680
Speaker 1: as much about what's going on with them, who are

3160
03:00:58,720 --> 03:01:02,199
Speaker 1: the threats, where, where the event is, how the event

3161
03:01:02,360 --> 03:01:04,960
Speaker 1: is um going to be thought of. We ask a

3162
03:01:05,040 --> 03:01:07,600
Speaker 1: lot of questions about it, Like we plan and plan

3163
03:01:07,760 --> 03:01:10,240
Speaker 1: and plan and plan to make sure that everything is

3164
03:01:10,360 --> 03:01:13,640
Speaker 1: super safe or as safe as possible based on all

3165
03:01:13,760 --> 03:01:17,040
Speaker 1: known variables and uh, and then the stuff that's unknown,

3166
03:01:17,160 --> 03:01:19,840
Speaker 1: we do our best to mitigate that somehow. Yes we

3167
03:01:19,959 --> 03:01:23,040
Speaker 1: are armed, but that's like the last thing that we

3168
03:01:23,200 --> 03:01:26,560
Speaker 1: ever even think of, and that's even in our planning,

3169
03:01:26,720 --> 03:01:30,880
Speaker 1: Like we say flat out de escalate first. Um. If

3170
03:01:30,959 --> 03:01:33,720
Speaker 1: things start to ratch it up, respond in kind. So

3171
03:01:33,920 --> 03:01:37,120
Speaker 1: like if someone you know, like tries to like I

3172
03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:39,800
Speaker 1: don't know, like starts to fist fight, We're not going

3173
03:01:39,920 --> 03:01:43,280
Speaker 1: to pull out a gun on someone who wants to

3174
03:01:44,000 --> 03:01:47,720
Speaker 1: box somebody on the street. We're going to do our

3175
03:01:47,760 --> 03:01:52,720
Speaker 1: best to stop so uh, stop them through other means,

3176
03:01:52,800 --> 03:01:56,680
Speaker 1: like whether if it's just to block a punch or whatever.

3177
03:01:56,800 --> 03:02:01,080
Speaker 1: But the first things and foremost is d escal Asian calm,

3178
03:02:01,280 --> 03:02:05,400
Speaker 1: calm that person down and tell them to go away

3179
03:02:05,600 --> 03:02:09,000
Speaker 1: or just to chill out or whatever the whatever is necessary.

3180
03:02:10,120 --> 03:02:12,560
Speaker 1: I mean de escalation. All of the best community self

3181
03:02:12,600 --> 03:02:16,520
Speaker 1: defense that I've personally watched has been de escalation. Um.

3182
03:02:17,080 --> 03:02:20,320
Speaker 1: You know, they're They're not the only situations I've seen.

3183
03:02:20,360 --> 03:02:22,480
Speaker 1: I've seen force used a couple of times in situations

3184
03:02:22,520 --> 03:02:26,040
Speaker 1: that were necessary, but by far, de escalation is the

3185
03:02:26,120 --> 03:02:32,040
Speaker 1: thing I've seen, um actually protect people in dicey situations

3186
03:02:32,280 --> 03:02:34,760
Speaker 1: the most. Um, And generally that's that's going to be

3187
03:02:34,879 --> 03:02:38,280
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah. I know for myself, like my attitude

3188
03:02:38,400 --> 03:02:41,920
Speaker 1: is we all go home. Everybody who shows up there

3189
03:02:42,360 --> 03:02:47,480
Speaker 1: goes home, not to the hospital, not to jail, or

3190
03:02:47,560 --> 03:02:50,000
Speaker 1: not to the morgue. We all go home. Yeah, I

3191
03:02:50,080 --> 03:02:52,440
Speaker 1: think that's definitely seems like the best way to look

3192
03:02:52,480 --> 03:02:56,520
Speaker 1: at it. So into the specific question of how not

3193
03:02:56,680 --> 03:03:00,440
Speaker 1: to become a cop in this position and on the gun,

3194
03:03:02,520 --> 03:03:04,240
Speaker 1: the only way I've been able to do anything in

3195
03:03:04,320 --> 03:03:08,280
Speaker 1: that regard has been to not have that be my

3196
03:03:08,360 --> 03:03:12,120
Speaker 1: primary thing that I fulfilled. I'm part of a community

3197
03:03:12,240 --> 03:03:15,640
Speaker 1: and I'm a mechanical person this community. I try to

3198
03:03:16,520 --> 03:03:20,240
Speaker 1: have my mission be not that other skill set or

3199
03:03:20,320 --> 03:03:24,160
Speaker 1: that other access to being of an aid to a community,

3200
03:03:25,600 --> 03:03:29,360
Speaker 1: be my actual purpose in the community, if that makes

3201
03:03:29,400 --> 03:03:36,760
Speaker 1: any sense. M Yeah, that makes complete sense. Um and Yeah,

3202
03:03:36,800 --> 03:03:39,760
Speaker 1: I think is the healthiest way to to deal with it.

3203
03:03:40,520 --> 03:03:43,480
Speaker 1: So something I've been wondering about as so I'm like

3204
03:03:43,800 --> 03:03:47,640
Speaker 1: nott armed at all. So I guess I'm on like

3205
03:03:47,720 --> 03:03:50,320
Speaker 1: the other the other side of defense, of the sort

3206
03:03:50,360 --> 03:03:53,120
Speaker 1: of community self defense. I think that people show up

3207
03:03:53,120 --> 03:03:55,520
Speaker 1: to protests, um. And So something I was wondering about

3208
03:03:55,640 --> 03:03:59,320
Speaker 1: is is the relationship between this stuff and you know,

3209
03:03:59,400 --> 03:04:02,279
Speaker 1: between the sort of hot mentality development and the difficulty

3210
03:04:02,840 --> 03:04:08,759
Speaker 1: of sort of integrating to the community, of having organizations

3211
03:04:09,040 --> 03:04:12,920
Speaker 1: that are basically independent security groups and not for example,

3212
03:04:13,959 --> 03:04:17,560
Speaker 1: like taking like I don't know, take like an historical example,

3213
03:04:18,320 --> 03:04:19,840
Speaker 1: like there was a thing in China you'd see a

3214
03:04:19,879 --> 03:04:22,800
Speaker 1: lot in like the nine hundreds where you know, you'd

3215
03:04:22,840 --> 03:04:25,200
Speaker 1: have armed pickets, right, and so you you you have

3216
03:04:25,280 --> 03:04:27,400
Speaker 1: an armed force there, but the armed force is like

3217
03:04:27,560 --> 03:04:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, this is this is like a branch of

3218
03:04:29,080 --> 03:04:31,200
Speaker 1: the union, right, and that's that's how they sort of

3219
03:04:31,320 --> 03:04:33,880
Speaker 1: like like that that was the sort of solution to

3220
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:36,800
Speaker 1: how do you stop cops syndrome is that you know

3221
03:04:36,959 --> 03:04:40,880
Speaker 1: they're they're they're basically like a part of another community organization.

3222
03:04:42,160 --> 03:04:47,080
Speaker 1: And so I'm I'm curious what you all think about

3223
03:04:48,800 --> 03:04:50,200
Speaker 1: what the sort of I guess that the strengths and

3224
03:04:50,240 --> 03:04:55,000
Speaker 1: weaknesses of being an independent or having having sort of

3225
03:04:55,080 --> 03:05:02,160
Speaker 1: independent security organizations versus having I guess, subsections of other

3226
03:05:02,240 --> 03:05:05,240
Speaker 1: organizations that are armed. Yeah, I feel like I can

3227
03:05:05,400 --> 03:05:09,160
Speaker 1: offer a unique perspective here as someone who's been privy

3228
03:05:09,240 --> 03:05:14,400
Speaker 1: to multiple angles of this, including separate organizations, ones integrated

3229
03:05:14,440 --> 03:05:16,959
Speaker 1: with others, and ones that are sort of just parts

3230
03:05:17,040 --> 03:05:22,080
Speaker 1: of the community. I don't think there's any like inherent

3231
03:05:22,280 --> 03:05:24,800
Speaker 1: sort of best answer here. I do think being part

3232
03:05:24,879 --> 03:05:29,680
Speaker 1: of a separate organization makes it harder to be in

3233
03:05:29,760 --> 03:05:33,360
Speaker 1: the community versus of the community, meaning you came from

3234
03:05:33,360 --> 03:05:36,279
Speaker 1: the community and now you're sort of kind of separate

3235
03:05:36,360 --> 03:05:40,400
Speaker 1: but not really UM like JB in particular has a

3236
03:05:40,480 --> 03:05:44,360
Speaker 1: perpetual problem with people saying, oh, you know, John Brown

3237
03:05:44,440 --> 03:05:46,920
Speaker 1: will do X. And this is something that has been

3238
03:05:46,959 --> 03:05:50,320
Speaker 1: discussed and often this is to people's immense fire. I

3239
03:05:50,360 --> 03:05:52,160
Speaker 1: don't want to speak for everyone here, but it does

3240
03:05:52,200 --> 03:05:54,920
Speaker 1: seem to be that, so seldom does one wish to

3241
03:05:55,000 --> 03:05:58,240
Speaker 1: be said, oh, hello, It's kind of like saying, oh,

3242
03:05:58,320 --> 03:06:00,400
Speaker 1: the Union will solve this, and it's like, turns out

3243
03:06:00,440 --> 03:06:04,160
Speaker 1: you're the Union buddy, um right, and never referred to

3244
03:06:04,200 --> 03:06:06,200
Speaker 1: be union in the first person. So I do think

3245
03:06:06,360 --> 03:06:08,920
Speaker 1: being embedded into other groups or being sort of this

3246
03:06:09,080 --> 03:06:13,080
Speaker 1: loose diffuse group can make it easier to be part

3247
03:06:13,160 --> 03:06:16,680
Speaker 1: of the community because of the structural forces that make that, um,

3248
03:06:17,520 --> 03:06:21,119
Speaker 1: it is easier to get there. A separate organization can

3249
03:06:21,200 --> 03:06:26,720
Speaker 1: help focus and codify certain procedures training, you know, make

3250
03:06:26,760 --> 03:06:29,600
Speaker 1: sure that people have some sort of unified goals and values,

3251
03:06:30,360 --> 03:06:32,160
Speaker 1: at the expense of making it a bit harder to

3252
03:06:32,240 --> 03:06:36,520
Speaker 1: integrate into one's community. I think given the era we're in,

3253
03:06:37,200 --> 03:06:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised we see many many approaches to community

3254
03:06:40,320 --> 03:06:48,520
Speaker 1: defense with varying effectiveness at different times, including JBS perspective. Yeah,

3255
03:06:48,680 --> 03:06:54,040
Speaker 1: and um, I guess I'm interested as we are as

3256
03:06:54,120 --> 03:06:56,039
Speaker 1: we move on here, and like, one of the one

3257
03:06:56,080 --> 03:06:59,840
Speaker 1: of the questions I see is how do you the

3258
03:07:00,000 --> 03:07:03,000
Speaker 1: difficulty and kind of you don't want to have a

3259
03:07:03,080 --> 03:07:07,960
Speaker 1: situation where there's absolutely no where the community self defense

3260
03:07:08,000 --> 03:07:10,400
Speaker 1: contention is anyone who shows up with a gun, because

3261
03:07:10,480 --> 03:07:13,040
Speaker 1: then anyone can show up with a gun, and you

3262
03:07:13,200 --> 03:07:15,080
Speaker 1: as someone else who's showing up with a weapin or

3263
03:07:15,120 --> 03:07:20,920
Speaker 1: potentially like if that person uh makes a bad decision,

3264
03:07:21,040 --> 03:07:22,720
Speaker 1: that's going to I mean as it as it has

3265
03:07:22,800 --> 03:07:26,080
Speaker 1: in the past, that has significant repercussions on everybody else.

3266
03:07:26,200 --> 03:07:29,400
Speaker 1: And I that is one of the thorny or points

3267
03:07:29,400 --> 03:07:32,320
Speaker 1: because I I do one of the things I see

3268
03:07:32,400 --> 03:07:36,440
Speaker 1: is valuable. Someone mentioned earlier, like the nice thing about

3269
03:07:36,480 --> 03:07:39,879
Speaker 1: it just in not being firearms being normalized, not as

3270
03:07:39,920 --> 03:07:42,320
Speaker 1: a like gun culture thing, but as this is just

3271
03:07:42,480 --> 03:07:45,200
Speaker 1: a thing that is present in the community. And I

3272
03:07:45,240 --> 03:07:48,720
Speaker 1: saw that a lot in Rojaba, right that everybody was armed,

3273
03:07:49,600 --> 03:07:51,680
Speaker 1: or at least the significant chunk of the populace had

3274
03:07:51,680 --> 03:07:54,200
Speaker 1: access to arms, but nobody was showing off with them.

3275
03:07:54,240 --> 03:07:57,520
Speaker 1: They were not like anybody's like like piece of identity.

3276
03:07:57,600 --> 03:07:59,560
Speaker 1: They were just one of the tools like a like

3277
03:07:59,680 --> 03:08:02,240
Speaker 1: a like a spade or a shovel that we're present

3278
03:08:02,320 --> 03:08:05,440
Speaker 1: in the community. Um okay, I think I've skipped over

3279
03:08:05,480 --> 03:08:08,040
Speaker 1: a couple of people. I wanted to give Thud a

3280
03:08:08,160 --> 03:08:11,120
Speaker 1: chance to talk. That's actually very much short of in

3281
03:08:11,240 --> 03:08:13,200
Speaker 1: line with But the point I was going to make,

3282
03:08:13,240 --> 03:08:17,440
Speaker 1: which is, for me, a huge part of community defense

3283
03:08:17,959 --> 03:08:22,600
Speaker 1: is making sure that the aspect that is defending the

3284
03:08:22,640 --> 03:08:26,520
Speaker 1: community is not alienated from the community because it isn't

3285
03:08:26,800 --> 03:08:30,480
Speaker 1: concentrated in just a few people. Because I think one

3286
03:08:30,520 --> 03:08:33,480
Speaker 1: of the other things that we emphasize the lots with

3287
03:08:33,560 --> 03:08:38,800
Speaker 1: outside of direct protest actions is you try to teach

3288
03:08:39,000 --> 03:08:43,720
Speaker 1: people how to safely operate firearms, but also to give

3289
03:08:43,840 --> 03:08:46,800
Speaker 1: firearms the respect that they deserve. That farms are not

3290
03:08:46,959 --> 03:08:49,440
Speaker 1: there so that you are badass. Firearms are not there

3291
03:08:49,879 --> 03:08:53,160
Speaker 1: because you know you're going to get into a gunfight.

3292
03:08:53,240 --> 03:08:54,800
Speaker 1: And it's well, the first rule, I mean, one of

3293
03:08:54,840 --> 03:08:57,160
Speaker 1: the one of the things that we stress sort of

3294
03:08:57,200 --> 03:09:00,240
Speaker 1: beyond the basic four rules of gun safety is the

3295
03:09:00,280 --> 03:09:03,039
Speaker 1: first rule of gunpipe is don't get into a gunpipe.

3296
03:09:03,800 --> 03:09:07,000
Speaker 1: That it's you know, you want to exhaust every possible

3297
03:09:07,040 --> 03:09:12,440
Speaker 1: option that you have. And when the community at large

3298
03:09:13,400 --> 03:09:17,000
Speaker 1: is engaged, and like Pray was saying that, it sort

3299
03:09:17,040 --> 03:09:19,200
Speaker 1: of it becomes normalized that oh, we're not relying on

3300
03:09:20,080 --> 03:09:23,520
Speaker 1: these several people to keep us safe, but that in fact,

3301
03:09:24,480 --> 03:09:28,120
Speaker 1: as an entire collective, we're keeping a safe and that

3302
03:09:28,280 --> 03:09:31,760
Speaker 1: gives recognition the fact that some people it's not it's

3303
03:09:31,800 --> 03:09:34,640
Speaker 1: not the right choice for them to carry again for

3304
03:09:34,720 --> 03:09:38,720
Speaker 1: one reason or another. And the at the same time,

3305
03:09:38,840 --> 03:09:45,800
Speaker 1: the power that is present in that particular tool is

3306
03:09:45,959 --> 03:09:51,520
Speaker 1: dispersed to the point where it doesn't you know, you

3307
03:09:51,640 --> 03:09:57,960
Speaker 1: don't have people getting self aggrandizing thoughts because of the

3308
03:09:58,040 --> 03:10:01,039
Speaker 1: fact that they're possessing firearps. And I think that's something

3309
03:10:01,120 --> 03:10:04,920
Speaker 1: that we, you know, work really hard to instill end

3310
03:10:04,920 --> 03:10:07,040
Speaker 1: evil in a variety of context, and I think is

3311
03:10:07,120 --> 03:10:13,720
Speaker 1: really critical to this question. So the question trying to summarize, UM,

3312
03:10:14,400 --> 03:10:16,760
Speaker 1: what the question was earlier, What the strengths or weaknesses

3313
03:10:16,800 --> 03:10:21,520
Speaker 1: of having an organized armed response are UM. One of

3314
03:10:21,600 --> 03:10:25,400
Speaker 1: the things that that I wanted to bring up is

3315
03:10:25,520 --> 03:10:30,720
Speaker 1: the historical context of armed response, specifically community armed response

3316
03:10:30,800 --> 03:10:34,480
Speaker 1: in Seattle. UM. I did some digging and found in

3317
03:10:35,360 --> 03:10:38,720
Speaker 1: a book called History of Seattle from the Earliest Settlement

3318
03:10:38,800 --> 03:10:43,600
Speaker 1: to the Present Time, Volume two, which I started pouring

3319
03:10:43,680 --> 03:10:47,400
Speaker 1: through and found that there was in eighteen seventy four

3320
03:10:48,120 --> 03:10:51,320
Speaker 1: there was a group called the Seattle Amateur Rifle Association

3321
03:10:52,000 --> 03:10:55,240
Speaker 1: which least land for a range on current present day

3322
03:10:55,280 --> 03:10:58,440
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill, UM, like right where the train station is.

3323
03:10:59,040 --> 03:11:01,959
Speaker 1: If you're familiar with the yet so like right where

3324
03:11:02,000 --> 03:11:06,080
Speaker 1: protests always happened these days. Later on, there's record record

3325
03:11:06,160 --> 03:11:09,840
Speaker 1: in eight seventy seven of the Seattle Rifle Team organizing

3326
03:11:09,879 --> 03:11:14,200
Speaker 1: and shooting contests. And then later on in eight six,

3327
03:11:14,280 --> 03:11:16,960
Speaker 1: which is a number that probably rings the bell, the

3328
03:11:17,080 --> 03:11:20,960
Speaker 1: Chinese Riots, as they called them at the time, happened,

3329
03:11:21,160 --> 03:11:23,680
Speaker 1: which was sort of the start of the labor movement,

3330
03:11:23,720 --> 03:11:26,720
Speaker 1: where everyone decided that Chinese immigrants were the cause of

3331
03:11:26,800 --> 03:11:29,800
Speaker 1: all of our woes, that the low wages being paid

3332
03:11:29,879 --> 03:11:33,880
Speaker 1: to Chinese immigrants were because of Chinese immigrants and not racism.

3333
03:11:34,440 --> 03:11:38,199
Speaker 1: So they decided to run every person who looked Chinese

3334
03:11:38,560 --> 03:11:41,240
Speaker 1: out of town. Literally. They referred to this as the

3335
03:11:41,320 --> 03:11:47,200
Speaker 1: Tacoma method, and that's what they did in Takemma exactly.

3336
03:11:47,280 --> 03:11:51,040
Speaker 1: It started there and there was a February seventh of

3337
03:11:51,120 --> 03:11:56,160
Speaker 1: eight six, this massive, angry racist mob tried to push

3338
03:11:56,200 --> 03:11:58,800
Speaker 1: all of the Chinese folks out of Seattle or anyone

3339
03:11:58,840 --> 03:12:02,440
Speaker 1: they thought might look like Chinese is and they tried

3340
03:12:02,480 --> 03:12:04,880
Speaker 1: to push them onto a steamboat, but there weren't there

3341
03:12:04,920 --> 03:12:08,880
Speaker 1: wasn't enough room for them all there. Um cops got involved.

3342
03:12:09,040 --> 03:12:11,840
Speaker 1: A bunch of other stuff happened they decided no, give

3343
03:12:11,920 --> 03:12:18,600
Speaker 1: them time in court. But in the process of making

3344
03:12:18,640 --> 03:12:21,680
Speaker 1: this decision, you know, the racist got a mob together

3345
03:12:23,280 --> 03:12:26,600
Speaker 1: and we're basically just going to try and put a

3346
03:12:26,680 --> 03:12:30,440
Speaker 1: stop to this before the legal proceedings could to go forward.

3347
03:12:31,840 --> 03:12:34,080
Speaker 1: So they reached out to local allies and arms. They

3348
03:12:34,120 --> 03:12:36,880
Speaker 1: had the Home Guards, which I'm not exactly sure exactly

3349
03:12:36,959 --> 03:12:39,120
Speaker 1: what the Home Guards were, but I assume there's something

3350
03:12:39,200 --> 03:12:43,480
Speaker 1: related to National Guard later on, or maybe just an

3351
03:12:43,520 --> 03:12:47,640
Speaker 1: extension of military, but the Home Guards and the Seattle

3352
03:12:47,800 --> 03:12:52,200
Speaker 1: Rifles as well as the University Cadets, which I'm assuming

3353
03:12:52,200 --> 03:12:56,160
Speaker 1: are of course soldiers in training, and pulled them all

3354
03:12:56,200 --> 03:13:00,400
Speaker 1: out and made a community self defense group out of them.

3355
03:13:00,560 --> 03:13:02,880
Speaker 1: They put a rifle line and held the mob back

3356
03:13:03,800 --> 03:13:07,640
Speaker 1: and enabled those folks to get you know, safely, to

3357
03:13:07,840 --> 03:13:10,760
Speaker 1: have their day in court, um, and then to protect

3358
03:13:10,840 --> 03:13:15,320
Speaker 1: them for a while afterward. They actually organized a sort

3359
03:13:15,360 --> 03:13:19,160
Speaker 1: of a watch because they didn't have enough police to

3360
03:13:19,440 --> 03:13:22,560
Speaker 1: to manage the mob. They use folks from the Seattle

3361
03:13:22,640 --> 03:13:26,320
Speaker 1: Rifles and these other groups to uh to sort of

3362
03:13:26,480 --> 03:13:28,800
Speaker 1: bolster the police forces and keep peace in the town.

3363
03:13:30,040 --> 03:13:33,120
Speaker 1: So the sort of thing that we do is a

3364
03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:36,120
Speaker 1: longstanding historical presence but I think there's a lot of

3365
03:13:36,160 --> 03:13:38,760
Speaker 1: things you can look at the history of and sort

3366
03:13:38,800 --> 03:13:43,240
Speaker 1: of take lessons from so um as as very mentioned,

3367
03:13:43,520 --> 03:13:46,240
Speaker 1: a unified response is of course a huge benefit of

3368
03:13:46,360 --> 03:13:51,120
Speaker 1: having a huge strength of having an organized armed group. Uh.

3369
03:13:51,200 --> 03:13:53,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's literally if someone reaches out and says

3370
03:13:53,600 --> 03:13:57,080
Speaker 1: we need help, help is available. Um. But there are

3371
03:13:57,080 --> 03:13:59,920
Speaker 1: a lot of weaknesses. Businesses and clubs can be held

3372
03:14:00,080 --> 03:14:04,600
Speaker 1: liable legally, and this is an endemic problem within gun

3373
03:14:04,720 --> 03:14:06,720
Speaker 1: law as it stands. The laws are written such that

3374
03:14:06,840 --> 03:14:10,840
Speaker 1: they effectively there that it comes down to situational context

3375
03:14:11,160 --> 03:14:14,480
Speaker 1: to determine how a gun law should be enforced. And

3376
03:14:14,520 --> 03:14:16,160
Speaker 1: the law will never be on the side of a

3377
03:14:16,200 --> 03:14:20,160
Speaker 1: group trying to abolish parts of the law. So you

3378
03:14:20,280 --> 03:14:24,279
Speaker 1: have to be very careful about how you how especially

3379
03:14:24,360 --> 03:14:28,120
Speaker 1: an organized or formally organized armed group has to be

3380
03:14:28,320 --> 03:14:32,400
Speaker 1: very cheerful about how they put their their worked in

3381
03:14:32,560 --> 03:14:37,840
Speaker 1: play with that in mind. Yeah, that was great. I

3382
03:14:38,000 --> 03:14:40,720
Speaker 1: was unaware, actually I was aware of the of the riots.

3383
03:14:40,800 --> 03:14:42,480
Speaker 1: I was unaware of that part of the history, which

3384
03:14:42,560 --> 03:14:47,960
Speaker 1: is fascinating, UM and I think very important. Yeah, Ray,

3385
03:14:48,120 --> 03:14:52,200
Speaker 1: did you want to explain the threat onion? Yeah, the

3386
03:14:52,320 --> 03:14:55,960
Speaker 1: integrated threat onion. So this is kind of a a

3387
03:14:56,120 --> 03:15:00,520
Speaker 1: well known meme in certain circles slash at tool thing,

3388
03:15:01,320 --> 03:15:04,120
Speaker 1: and it's designed to help you understand how to like

3389
03:15:04,280 --> 03:15:10,040
Speaker 1: mitigate threat and sorry, integrated survivability onion mitigate threats. Right.

3390
03:15:10,560 --> 03:15:13,840
Speaker 1: So the teel deer is, you know, do you want

3391
03:15:13,879 --> 03:15:16,560
Speaker 1: to try to preserve life by having body armor and

3392
03:15:16,640 --> 03:15:18,640
Speaker 1: hoping a bullet hits you in the body armor or

3393
03:15:18,720 --> 03:15:20,400
Speaker 1: do you want to preserve life by I don't know,

3394
03:15:20,640 --> 03:15:22,560
Speaker 1: not showing the funk up to something where you might

3395
03:15:22,600 --> 03:15:26,280
Speaker 1: get shot. And the idea is it's it's a meme

3396
03:15:26,480 --> 03:15:28,960
Speaker 1: because so often, you know, people are like, oh, they

3397
03:15:29,000 --> 03:15:30,720
Speaker 1: want to get in there and get and get engaged

3398
03:15:30,760 --> 03:15:33,040
Speaker 1: with conflict and be the hero. And the answer is,

3399
03:15:33,080 --> 03:15:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, you could just like not go there, right,

3400
03:15:34,760 --> 03:15:36,480
Speaker 1: and it would probably be a lot easier to do that.

3401
03:15:37,600 --> 03:15:41,240
Speaker 1: But there's some real weight to the survivability onion, which

3402
03:15:41,360 --> 03:15:44,600
Speaker 1: is like, there are many many ways to mitigate threats

3403
03:15:44,640 --> 03:15:47,760
Speaker 1: to yourself in your community, and very often the most

3404
03:15:47,879 --> 03:15:51,960
Speaker 1: boring and mundane answer is probably the one that's going

3405
03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:54,320
Speaker 1: to actually result in the biggest impact, and the heroic

3406
03:15:54,440 --> 03:15:57,800
Speaker 1: answer is probably the absolute worst answer, and only what

3407
03:15:57,920 --> 03:16:00,680
Speaker 1: you rely on if everything I'll has gone to hell.

3408
03:16:01,320 --> 03:16:05,200
Speaker 1: So that's someone I think it was thund spoken to

3409
03:16:05,920 --> 03:16:09,760
Speaker 1: alluded to the threat onion and ways to mitigate harm

3410
03:16:09,879 --> 03:16:12,320
Speaker 1: to oneself in one's community, and I had to repeat

3411
03:16:12,400 --> 03:16:16,480
Speaker 1: it because it's this this meme that's been coming up forever. Yeah,

3412
03:16:16,560 --> 03:16:19,320
Speaker 1: and it is like the basic idea of the threat

3413
03:16:19,360 --> 03:16:22,320
Speaker 1: onion is that you have like this again you you

3414
03:16:23,080 --> 03:16:24,560
Speaker 1: think of it in layers. That's why they call it

3415
03:16:24,600 --> 03:16:27,920
Speaker 1: an onion. Um of like things that protect you, and

3416
03:16:28,240 --> 03:16:30,640
Speaker 1: the things that provide the most protection are stuff like

3417
03:16:30,800 --> 03:16:34,959
Speaker 1: not being seen or present when somebody wants to harm you, um,

3418
03:16:35,440 --> 03:16:38,320
Speaker 1: not or being behind cover when somebody wants to harm you.

3419
03:16:38,400 --> 03:16:40,400
Speaker 1: And the thing that offers the least protection is having

3420
03:16:40,480 --> 03:16:44,280
Speaker 1: body armor. You know. It's this the idea that like, um,

3421
03:16:44,720 --> 03:16:47,680
Speaker 1: the things that people buy and and focus on because

3422
03:16:47,720 --> 03:16:51,560
Speaker 1: they look cool, UM are all things that offer less

3423
03:16:51,560 --> 03:16:56,000
Speaker 1: protection than situational awareness and good judgment. UM is kind

3424
03:16:56,040 --> 03:16:58,280
Speaker 1: of the actual like lesson I think to take out

3425
03:16:58,320 --> 03:17:00,760
Speaker 1: of the threat onion. That to be my opinion on

3426
03:17:00,800 --> 03:17:03,240
Speaker 1: the matter. This has been it could happen here. That's

3427
03:17:03,240 --> 03:17:06,080
Speaker 1: all for this week. Find us at Happen Here pod

3428
03:17:06,320 --> 03:17:08,200
Speaker 1: on Instagram. And Twitter, and find the rest of our

3429
03:17:08,240 --> 03:17:22,640
Speaker 1: shows at cool zone Media in the same places. Hey,

3430
03:17:22,800 --> 03:17:25,879
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3431
03:17:25,920 --> 03:17:28,680
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could

3432
03:17:28,680 --> 03:17:31,040
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

3433
03:17:31,160 --> 03:17:33,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3434
03:17:33,959 --> 03:17:35,880
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

3435
03:17:35,959 --> 03:17:38,640
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

3436
03:17:38,680 --> 03:17:41,600
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

3437
03:17:41,720 --> 03:17:45,120
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources.

3438
03:17:45,360 --> 03:17:46,119
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.