WEBVTT - Fire Drill 070 - The Great Ball Debate 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.080 The golf courses just played into the manufacturer's hands and 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.480 just rewarded exponentially rewarded distance so disproportionately from everything else. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:13.760 The reason you say what you say on tour is 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.200 the golf courses are set up to challenge you to 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:17.920 hit it as far as you can, and if you do, 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.480 you can succeed. If you don't, you can't. I got 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:27.320 thoughts in my head. Can't get them out, John, Nothing 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.440 what I'm thinking about. The gouts in my head. Can't 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:45.200 get them out. Not think what I'm thinking about. Hello, 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.280 this is Alan Ship knocking back for another Fire Drill podcast, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.560 joined by a heavy hitting trio Michael Bamberger, Matt Ginella 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.760 and US Open Champion Jeff Ogilvie. The big story in 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.480 golf at this moment is the USGA's move to throttle 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.720 back the golf ball through this local rule. We want 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.920 to convene this panel to kick it all around. Um, Jeff, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.959 We're gonna start with you. Not only are you a player, 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.120 but you're an architect. You have to you have to 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.480 account for the distance the ball flies. Um, you're also 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:20.600 a traditionalist. What is your take on this decision and 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.280 how is it going to impact the game at every 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.720 level in your mind. Yeah, I don't know. I guess 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.280 I'm just getting my head around it a little bit. 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.800 Um they've been threatening this for a while. It seems like, 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.200 I mean, they've been getting a bit more diligent on there. 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.760 What do they call that report, the Distance Insights Report 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.200 or whatever it is. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.440 think it's more complicated than people think. I mean, you say, 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.080 I'm a purist, and I guess my favorite version of 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.120 golf would be persimonon bladders around the old course or something, 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:52.600 you know what. I mean, that's my fat But that 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.080 doesn't mean that's everybody's favorite version. Um, So I kind 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:01.120 of have empathy for. I mean, I guess the real 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.080 driving factor is the golf courses. I mean, when you 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.280 start seeing Augusta spanning millions and millions of millions buying 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.800 neighboring real estate and moving their teas out of bounds 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.280 and or what used to be out of bounds and 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.079 the old course sort of moving their teas to other 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.519 golf courses and having to sort of manipulate what they've 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:18.640 got to challenge the best players in the world. I 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.440 think that's sort of disappointing, so I can sort of 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:25.480 see the motivation behind it. I don't think it's quite 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.239 as simple as just making the best players hit it 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:28.960 a little bit shorter and like that fixes all those 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.160 sort of problems. I think it's way more complicated than that, 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.960 So I'm not like a massive fan of splitting up 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:41.200 the rules. I think business and technology and like the 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.160 manufacturers are such an integrated part of the game game, 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:45.959 and they have been for so long that I think, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.720 I don't know, I'm on the fence. I mean, I 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:53.960 love the philosophy, you know, I think of preserving the 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.520 third eighth at the Masters and had playing team the roadhole, 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.720 like off the correct tea and or the original tea, 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:04.280 and I love all that, But golf's never Golf's never 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:08.560 really been stronger, at least in my lifetime. I mean, 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:10.200 you can't get a tea time anywhere, at least in 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.119 Arizona and in Australia, you can't get tea times. Golf 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:14.960 shops seem to be selling a lot of stuff. I mean, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.080 we've got billions of dollars getting put into the programe. 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.240 I mean, it's it's in a good spot. So I 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.160 stepped forward slowly. I guess, you know, I don't know. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:27.800 No one really knows what's going to happen. I mean, 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:29.519 they've done this sort of three times in my career. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:33.880 And if we kind of discount the driver length thing 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.560 that they did, because they don't think that really affected 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:40.160 very many people. The grooves thing, everyone was jumping up 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:41.680 and down and going crazy. We're not going to get 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.240 flyers from every time. We didn't the raff and the 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.760 whole game's going to change it. I mean, it didn't 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.920 change anything like it literally changed. Maybe for six months 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.760 we sort of scrambled around and mess around with bounces 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.720 and lofts and different stuff, but they worked out how 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.640 to get us to spin the ball like it used 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.440 to and off to the races. And same with the 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.680 long putter thing. The intent was to get people to 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.360 not use long putters, and just as many people use 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.480 long putters as now as before, maybe even more so. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.240 This my skepticism about whether it'll actually make any realistic difference. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.440 Is there a little bit, and it's kind of rescue 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.600 I think, to sort of split up the rules. I 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.800 don't know. Maybe I'm saying that because I've been a 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.720 paid athlete from governmentufacturers my whole life. I'm not sure, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:29.960 but the general public and everybody benefits from all the 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:31.840 r and D that they do on our stuff. You know, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.120 they research and development for what we want, and that 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.039 it's a bit like Formula one in the cars. Is 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.599 that that sort of filters down and ten years later 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.440 that comes into the end users product. I think if 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.279 you sort of mess that process up, I mean, maybe 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:47.680 do all them or does all the money go into 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.600 our ball or does all the money go into the 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.560 average players ball? And what's the motivation for titlists or 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.599 tailor made or anybody who makes a ball to sponsor athletes? 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.600 Then if people if they're going to be so different, 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:00.480 you know, and that would completely change the fabric and 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.240 the macap of the whole sport, at least on a 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.159 professional level. So I don't know. I think it's I 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.920 love the philosophy of not having us hit it so far, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.599 but I think it needs to be well thought out. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.520 And these things usually work best when they evolve as 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.920 opposed to get forced. That's my feeling. Michael, you didn't 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.159 have any qualms. You wrote a pretty strong piece for 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.200 firepay Collective dot Com laying out your thesis that this 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.840 was an important moment for the USGA to show some 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:32.360 leadership and as stewards of the game, and explain your 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.560 the emotion behind that that story. Why do you believe 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.160 this is this is the right move? Yet just a 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.080 quick nod to Jeff, because then we've had this experience before. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.320 You could just take what Je' said, print it up 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.000 and put it in a magazine. It was such a 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.520 well reasoned essay almost about why he feels the way 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.120 he does. But I think it's but I say that 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.720 in part because I think it's very significant to realize 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.720 where we all come into the game in different places, 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.240 including the four of us, including the millions of people 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.919 who are so passionate about the game. I think the 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.800 interest here on the USJ and the RNA part is 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.200 very narrow. And let's just think about three courses that 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.839 we all know, Pebble Beach, the Old Course in Gusta 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.440 National you know, occasionally in every year in Gust's case, 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.600 those tournaments are played on those courses and millions of 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.200 people around the world watch them, and that's an invitation 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.400 to play the game. When those courses become pitch and 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.200 put courses like Camp Smith's thirty on the back nine 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.440 and the Old Course last year. It actually creates more 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.160 of a chasm between us and them and actually makes 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.719 the game just kind of less appealing. And if we 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:42.280 lose those showpieces of golf because they turned into pitch 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.400 and put courses, it doesn't serve the game. Well. I 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:50.159 think there's a very narrow goal here of preserving the best, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.560 most traditional courses in the world, including Madonna where Jeff's 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.200 doing work now, and really not that many where golf 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.360 is played on TV, and continue to make them meaningful 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:04.480 for the pro and continue to make it aspirational for us. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.600 And I think the USGA in the RNA might go 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.320 down the following path the next couple of years, much 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.480 like a kid going from a metal bat to a 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.080 wooden bat. It would be aspirational for a golfer to 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.640 someday be at the level where you use the tournament ball. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.560 But it could be very narrow and focus and achieve 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.600 the goal of preserving the three shot Part five. You know, 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.200 when I was coming up in the game, you had 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.880 Part seventy two US Open courses knocked down to Part 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.000 seventy and one of those Part fives will be unreachable 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.880 in the other wood. That was sort of the traditional 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.720 definition of a part seventy. Of course that's gone. So 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:43.880 to bring that back, to make it, to make us 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.280 recognize the value of the game of eighteen holes comprising 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.680 of Part five's, part fours and Part three's where you 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.680 test every club in the bag, I think is it 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.440 would be very useful to the game. But I would 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.760 be much more narrow in what do they say rolling 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:04.840 out this new rollback? I would start with the four majors. So, 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.240 matt um did it? Did the USGA go far enough? 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.760 I mean, should they have? Should they have taken a 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:12.920 more holistic approach to this where it's not just about 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.680 the ball, it's about the size of the driver, It's 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.000 about you know, there's a lot of other factors besides 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.600 the ball, like um, you know, I remember when I 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.640 when I was learning to play the game, it was 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.800 scared to hit a driver because the head was so 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.480 small and if you if you didn't, if you caught 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:29.800 it on the toe or the heel, it was going 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.640 to go a million miles offline. Like there was there 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.040 was risk to swing in a driver. And now the 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.040 club faces are so big and forgiving that you can 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.439 swing harder and you may not cast it in the 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.240 sweet spot, which you know oftentimes I don't, but you're 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.000 still gonna get it on the face and it's still 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.760 gonna fly pretty well and usually in play. Like they 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.080 could have taken more dramatic action than just just a 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.880 golf ball, Like, what do you think of where they 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.959 landed on this issue. I'm like, and like probably a 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.520 lot of people, I did take a couple of days. 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.720 I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I've read 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:11.920 several articles, I've listened to several podcasts because because I'm 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:16.439 trying not to be, you know, quick to overreact or 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.680 to take some sort of dramatic stand, you know, for 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.319 the spirit of taking a dramatic stand. And again I'm 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.360 a I'm a I'm an amateur golfer. We are talking 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.240 about something that's going to affect one percent of the 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.240 one percent of the people that swing that hard, that fast, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.760 that create that kind of energy with that size of 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.920 a club, you know, with the current ball on courses 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.320 that we see on TV. Because let's be honest, this 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.800 is about golf on TV. And that was my point there. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.640 You know, at Augusta National the membership who plays there 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.640 day in and day out. The members tease is plenty 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.760 long enough for all members, and members don't go back 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.680 and play the crazy teas we're talking about, you know, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.560 at Riviera. The membership at Riviera, that golf course is 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.480 plenty long and challenging for them. And at Cypress Point 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.240 and all the differences. Cypress isn't it on TV? And 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.920 Riviera and Pebble and Old Course are at Old Course 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:20.960 last year the most benign conditions absolutely no, no, no 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.600 traditional Scottish weather, which in large part is a factor 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.680 generally at in competing at that place over four days. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.920 This was an outlier of a situation and camp Smith 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.160 won at twenty under and he won it by you know, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.520 with his short game, with his chipping and putting, and 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.080 we marveled at at at his ability, and I think 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.520 we will in April marvel at people's ability to get 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.040 up and down around the green and hit the Scottie Scheffler. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.760 The chips that are talked about are in those first 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.920 free few holes of the last round. It's not about 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.240 what he was hitting into thirteen or fifteen. It was 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.120 about his short game that that converted what should have 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.319 been two or three over to two or three under. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.240 That was his short game. So one percent of one 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:12.719 percent for fifteen yards, okay, for you know, why is 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.680 it just the ball? Why why now, in the middle 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.000 of the ship storm that's happening in the world of 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.360 professional golf? Why why why now for something that we 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.080 will contemplate into August and then wouldn't go into effect 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.040 until twenty six. Can we just let this other stuff 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:29.600 kind of play out a little bit for a little 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.240 while longer. If you look at stats and facts that 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.520 since two thousand and four they're hit, there has been 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:40.319 pretty much a a moderation to what the advancements are 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.720 happening as it relates to the ball. Courses have made 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.679 the changers. Augusta bought the land that it needed to 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:50.400 make the changes to keep the thirteenth hole relevant. So 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.960 there's a couple holes, a couple venues, a couple people. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.240 This involves, and we're talking about the tour, the elite 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.040 level player. Why not just involve the governing bodies and 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.600 these players. Why put all of us through all of us, 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.960 Why not go behind closed doors and at least everybody 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:08.920 get on the same page that there is some sort 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.720 of issue that needs to be dressed and then decide 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:13.760 how they're going to address it, in which they already 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.880 know that the tour is going to adopt it. Because 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.520 if they do this and the tour doesn't adopt it, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.640 now we have more of a shit show. Now, it's like, now, 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.079 what does that mean to the USGA and the RNA, 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.880 the you Why not just raise the mowing levels of fay. 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.760 We see thirty to forty to fifty yards of roll 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.640 out right now on these modern mode fairways at these 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.040 classic venues. That to me is just as much of 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.080 an issue as swing speed and ball distance, because that 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.520 ball goes and then it just keeps going. So why 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.120 don't we talk about mower length? Why don't we talk 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.840 about loft of a driver? Why don't we just why 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.200 isn't it a combination of a few things? Why is 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.480 it just the ball? To try to simplify such a 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:06.360 layered decision and focus on one thing, one factor in 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.400 this spirit of this idea that it needs to go 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.800 back like freeze it now, keep it now, marvel at 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.400 cam Smith's thirty. Instead of saying this is a problem, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.800 marvel at the guy achieved something that should be celebrated 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.439 forever instead of being the catalyst to some sort of rollback. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.640 It just doesn't. I just think all of it just doesn't. 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.640 It doesn't make sense to me. Let me read butt 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.120 a few of those things for the spirit of conversation. 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.760 I mean, why now, it's because Mike Juan took over 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.480 the USGA. I mean they have they have a new leadership, 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.320 they have a new energy, and you know they've they've 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.240 been They've been talking about this for twenty years and 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.640 the game has changed in since they started studying this issue. 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.600 I don't think there's any doubt to Jeff's point. Even 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.360 though this rule is only going to affect the pros, 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.880 there is a trickle down. It will affect the average 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.640 consumer based on how much these manufacturers UH put into 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.600 R and D and what that means to our to 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.839 our game as well. So that's not a huge factor, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.959 but it is a factor. So everyone everyone in golf 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.599 is touched in some way. But as golf consumers, I 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.040 would say, I don't think this is about camp Smith 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.000 or even Scottie Seffler. They're not the guys who are 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.720 pushing the envelope of driving distance. But um, when you 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.120 see like you know Bryson did to wing foot, which 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.280 is of course that Jeff holds deer, like the pro 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:34.600 game has evolved to drive or wedge on so many holes. 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.120 But putting some credit there too, Like everyone thinks he 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.680 just powered wing foot. He didn't. It was about his 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.800 short game and his putting that won him the tournament. Yeah, 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:44.440 that was a factor too. But I will say that 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:46.880 when when you watch when the tour goes to like 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:48.840 in an old course, like I think about the rocket 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.760 mortgage for instance, like every part four guys are hidding 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.640 wedges into and it gets it gets repetitive. It's like 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.600 just there's no danger. When when I when a tour 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.360 player has a wedge, a bad shot going to be 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.800 thirty feet like there, it just takes all the dispersion 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.840 out of it. The water's not in play, that the 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.280 trees and the bunkers aren't in play. And I do 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.920 notice as a golf viewer that there's a sameness to 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.880 the way the holes get played and and there's there's 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.520 just not that sense of they're not walking a tight 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.520 rope like they used to because the clubs are. It's 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.320 not just everyone likes to watch them hit it a 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.400 long way off the tea, but it's what happens after that. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.240 I mean, I just think it's a less compelling product. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.080 And as you said, it's a TV show, And as 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:31.960 as a viewer watching golf for a long time, I 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.080 think it's a lot more boring now because the way 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.760 they play the game. That's that's my personal feeling. No, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.320 I'm totally with you, Alan. I think you said that 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.600 I would say the same way the only and I 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.760 would add to that, I would add I agree with 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.160 what Matt saying. It's not just one factor, an Alan, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:48.920 to yours point is it used to be a little 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:50.680 scared to hit a driver. I mean even just in 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:52.840 the thirty years and we've been putting together at I've 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.400 gone from scared of the driver to love the driver, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.080 in part because that bald doesn't curve as much as 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.320 it used to and part way a pipe put it 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.200 forward and launch it. In part because of the way 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.920 people design golf course to say, with no rough in 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:10.560 sixty yard fairways, there's no scare factor. So to Matt's point, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.440 and I'm sure we would all agree with this, it 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.840 isn't just one factor. But the golf ball is a 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.120 place to start, as Nicholas has been saying, literally for 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.720 for for thirty or forty years, Jeff, how long will 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.720 it take for the pros to get their fifteen or 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.200 seventeen or eighteen yards back? I mean you mentioned the grooves. Um, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.800 there's there's always there's always a workaround, like, um, there's 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.840 there's going to be a way to to they roll 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.480 the ball back. But it seems like people are clever 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.200 enough that they can they can they can squeeze out 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.280 more yardage whatever they're given, Like this is this only 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:44.640 going to be an issue for a few years and 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.960 back to where they were right now? I imagine it's 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:50.720 probably gonna go that. I mean, I don't know how 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.960 that would do that, but and look, I don't know 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.800 enough about the signs that I'd be pretending like I'll 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.360 just be regurgitating what other people say it. But I 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.880 feel like one of the knocks on the way they 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.000 measure is they've always just measured off that one clubs 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.800 that one certain condition, and they measure how father ball goes. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:14.000 And that's sort of the line. But there's there's stuff 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.280 in the equipment that we have now that triggers at 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.199 certain speeds and it can change at certain conditions. I mean, 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.200 they could conceivably design a ball the past the test 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.080 that you just swing it a little bit slower and 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:27.640 put a little bit more spin on it where there's 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.600 a different amount of loft on your driver or something, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.560 and they will work out how to get it going 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:33.040 far again. And I mean they're going to do it, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.200 which is why I think this is it just needs 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.320 to be well thought out if everyone thinks it's the 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:41.960 way it should go. And I mean just one little 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.280 point that Michael made about six yard fairways and no rough. 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.440 I mean Augustus got plenty of scary shots for sixty 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:53.680 yard wide fairways, and I don't think I mean, look, 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.280 there was a great someone wrote it about Hogan, or 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.560 it was a quote of Hogan's or someone said that 0:17:58.600 --> 0:17:59.960 this was how he viewed his golf. I mean, he 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.000 measured his drives. He analyzed his drives in terms of position, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.600 and he didn't measure him in terms of distance. So 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.200 position to him was more important than out and out distant. 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.640 I mean, distance is a part of position. But we've 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.879 ever since the last twenty as this was happening with 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.520 the equipment, the golf courses just played into the manufacturer's 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:24.639 hands and just rewarded exponentially rewarded distance so disproportionately from 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.119 everything else. The reason you see what you see on 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.720 tour is the golf courses are set up to challenge 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.199 you to hit it as far as you can, and 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.680 if you do, you can succeed. If you don't, you can't. 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.840 So twenty thirty years ago, pros weren't going home with 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.200 launch monitors and working on swinging with heavy and lightweight 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.199 clubs and trying to max out their speed and watching 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.080 long drivers swing it on Instagram. That's just wasn't a thing. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:48.560 We were going home and trying to work on our 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.919 soft little fade with a sixth time because that was 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.000 what was rewarded. And so the golf courses and the 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.359 way they've set up and the reactiveness, I mean, this 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.160 is a bit of a reaction to a slow one, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.879 but a reaction the reactiveness sort of the last evolution 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.439 of the reaction was to make golf courses longer and 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.919 to challenge long hitters more. Well, that just makes us 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.960 want to hit it further. And if you take a 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:13.680 ball and make it go shorter, we're just going to 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:15.640 work out how to make it go further. How we're 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.720 going to work out how to have the lower score 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.359 we can on the courses we get presented. And I 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:25.959 think it's very realistic to present courses that proportionately reward distance, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.840 not disproportionately. I mean, I know that's kind of what 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:30.399 the USJA we're trying to do at wing foot and 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.159 all that, and I guess it's not an exact science 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.199 and you can't do it always, but we're just going 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.800 to try to do I say we as as a 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.760 professional golfer, we're just going to try to get our 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.119 games to the point that get rewarded the most on 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.120 the challenges we get put And if you just keep 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.800 putting longer and longer courses that reward distance, that's all 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.800 we're going to focus on. I think it's just more 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.359 complicated than just changing away you measure the ball and 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.680 making certain conditions to go a bit shorter off the driver. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.160 I think it's a holistic if you genuinely want golf 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.000 to have a smaller fought print and use less water 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.440 and not have to buy land next door and all 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.880 these things that I think should be Really the only 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.000 reason we do this is to preserve golf courses, because 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.040 whether someone hits at three thirty on TV or three 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:21.120 fifteen on TV, you can't. That doesn't translate like any 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.159 average golfer goes down and watches PGA two players hit 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.080 any shots, really, they're blown away. It wouldn't even matter 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:28.720 if the ball went thirty yards shutter. They'd watch that 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.919 and go, wow, how good is that? Like that, the 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.560 entertainment product is great regardless of whether it goes three 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:39.680 thirty or three fifteen. I think it's got to be 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.480