1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: The golf courses just played into the manufacturer's hands and 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: just rewarded exponentially rewarded distance so disproportionately from everything else. 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: The reason you say what you say on tour is 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: the golf courses are set up to challenge you to 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: hit it as far as you can, and if you do, 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: you can succeed. If you don't, you can't. I got 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: thoughts in my head. Can't get them out, John, Nothing 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about. The gouts in my head. Can't 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: get them out. Not think what I'm thinking about. Hello, 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: this is Alan Ship knocking back for another Fire Drill podcast, 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: joined by a heavy hitting trio Michael Bamberger, Matt Ginella 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: and US Open Champion Jeff Ogilvie. The big story in 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: golf at this moment is the USGA's move to throttle 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: back the golf ball through this local rule. We want 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: to convene this panel to kick it all around. Um, Jeff, 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: We're gonna start with you. Not only are you a player, 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: but you're an architect. You have to you have to 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: account for the distance the ball flies. Um, you're also 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: a traditionalist. What is your take on this decision and 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: how is it going to impact the game at every 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: level in your mind. Yeah, I don't know. I guess 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: I'm just getting my head around it a little bit. 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Um they've been threatening this for a while. It seems like, 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: I mean, they've been getting a bit more diligent on there. 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: What do they call that report, the Distance Insights Report 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: think it's more complicated than people think. I mean, you say, 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: I'm a purist, and I guess my favorite version of 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: golf would be persimonon bladders around the old course or something, 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: you know what. I mean, that's my fat But that 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that's everybody's favorite version. Um, So I kind 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: of have empathy for. I mean, I guess the real 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: driving factor is the golf courses. I mean, when you 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: start seeing Augusta spanning millions and millions of millions buying 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: neighboring real estate and moving their teas out of bounds 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: and or what used to be out of bounds and 37 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: the old course sort of moving their teas to other 38 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: golf courses and having to sort of manipulate what they've 39 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: got to challenge the best players in the world. I 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: think that's sort of disappointing, so I can sort of 41 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: see the motivation behind it. I don't think it's quite 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: as simple as just making the best players hit it 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: a little bit shorter and like that fixes all those 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: sort of problems. I think it's way more complicated than that, 45 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: So I'm not like a massive fan of splitting up 46 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: the rules. I think business and technology and like the 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: manufacturers are such an integrated part of the game game, 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: and they have been for so long that I think, 49 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm on the fence. I mean, I 50 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: love the philosophy, you know, I think of preserving the 51 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: third eighth at the Masters and had playing team the roadhole, 52 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: like off the correct tea and or the original tea, 53 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: and I love all that, But golf's never Golf's never 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: really been stronger, at least in my lifetime. I mean, 55 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: you can't get a tea time anywhere, at least in 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: Arizona and in Australia, you can't get tea times. Golf 57 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: shops seem to be selling a lot of stuff. I mean, 58 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: we've got billions of dollars getting put into the programe. 59 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's in a good spot. So I 60 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: stepped forward slowly. I guess, you know, I don't know. 61 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: No one really knows what's going to happen. I mean, 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: they've done this sort of three times in my career. 63 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: And if we kind of discount the driver length thing 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: that they did, because they don't think that really affected 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: very many people. The grooves thing, everyone was jumping up 66 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: and down and going crazy. We're not going to get 67 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: flyers from every time. We didn't the raff and the 68 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: whole game's going to change it. I mean, it didn't 69 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: change anything like it literally changed. Maybe for six months 70 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: we sort of scrambled around and mess around with bounces 71 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: and lofts and different stuff, but they worked out how 72 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: to get us to spin the ball like it used 73 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: to and off to the races. And same with the 74 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: long putter thing. The intent was to get people to 75 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: not use long putters, and just as many people use 76 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: long putters as now as before, maybe even more so. 77 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: This my skepticism about whether it'll actually make any realistic difference. 78 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: Is there a little bit, and it's kind of rescue 79 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: I think, to sort of split up the rules. I 80 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe I'm saying that because I've been a 81 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: paid athlete from governmentufacturers my whole life. I'm not sure, 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: but the general public and everybody benefits from all the 83 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: r and D that they do on our stuff. You know, 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: they research and development for what we want, and that 85 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: it's a bit like Formula one in the cars. Is 86 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: that that sort of filters down and ten years later 87 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: that comes into the end users product. I think if 88 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: you sort of mess that process up, I mean, maybe 89 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: do all them or does all the money go into 90 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: our ball or does all the money go into the 91 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: average players ball? And what's the motivation for titlists or 92 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: tailor made or anybody who makes a ball to sponsor athletes? 93 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: Then if people if they're going to be so different, 94 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, and that would completely change the fabric and 95 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: the macap of the whole sport, at least on a 96 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: professional level. So I don't know. I think it's I 97 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: love the philosophy of not having us hit it so far, 98 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: but I think it needs to be well thought out. 99 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: And these things usually work best when they evolve as 100 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: opposed to get forced. That's my feeling. Michael, you didn't 101 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: have any qualms. You wrote a pretty strong piece for 102 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: firepay Collective dot Com laying out your thesis that this 103 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: was an important moment for the USGA to show some 104 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: leadership and as stewards of the game, and explain your 105 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: the emotion behind that that story. Why do you believe 106 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: this is this is the right move? Yet just a 107 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: quick nod to Jeff, because then we've had this experience before. 108 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: You could just take what Je' said, print it up 109 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: and put it in a magazine. It was such a 110 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: well reasoned essay almost about why he feels the way 111 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: he does. But I think it's but I say that 112 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: in part because I think it's very significant to realize 113 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: where we all come into the game in different places, 114 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: including the four of us, including the millions of people 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: who are so passionate about the game. I think the 116 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: interest here on the USJ and the RNA part is 117 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: very narrow. And let's just think about three courses that 118 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: we all know, Pebble Beach, the Old Course in Gusta 119 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: National you know, occasionally in every year in Gust's case, 120 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: those tournaments are played on those courses and millions of 121 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: people around the world watch them, and that's an invitation 122 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: to play the game. When those courses become pitch and 123 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: put courses like Camp Smith's thirty on the back nine 124 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: and the Old Course last year. It actually creates more 125 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: of a chasm between us and them and actually makes 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: the game just kind of less appealing. And if we 127 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: lose those showpieces of golf because they turned into pitch 128 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: and put courses, it doesn't serve the game. Well. I 129 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: think there's a very narrow goal here of preserving the best, 130 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: most traditional courses in the world, including Madonna where Jeff's 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: doing work now, and really not that many where golf 132 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: is played on TV, and continue to make them meaningful 133 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: for the pro and continue to make it aspirational for us. 134 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: And I think the USGA in the RNA might go 135 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: down the following path the next couple of years, much 136 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: like a kid going from a metal bat to a 137 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: wooden bat. It would be aspirational for a golfer to 138 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: someday be at the level where you use the tournament ball. 139 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: But it could be very narrow and focus and achieve 140 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: the goal of preserving the three shot Part five. You know, 141 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: when I was coming up in the game, you had 142 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: Part seventy two US Open courses knocked down to Part 143 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: seventy and one of those Part fives will be unreachable 144 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: in the other wood. That was sort of the traditional 145 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: definition of a part seventy. Of course that's gone. So 146 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: to bring that back, to make it, to make us 147 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: recognize the value of the game of eighteen holes comprising 148 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: of Part five's, part fours and Part three's where you 149 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: test every club in the bag, I think is it 150 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: would be very useful to the game. But I would 151 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: be much more narrow in what do they say rolling 152 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: out this new rollback? I would start with the four majors. So, 153 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: matt um did it? Did the USGA go far enough? 154 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: I mean, should they have? Should they have taken a 155 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: more holistic approach to this where it's not just about 156 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: the ball, it's about the size of the driver, It's 157 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: about you know, there's a lot of other factors besides 158 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: the ball, like um, you know, I remember when I 159 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: when I was learning to play the game, it was 160 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: scared to hit a driver because the head was so 161 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: small and if you if you didn't, if you caught 162 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: it on the toe or the heel, it was going 163 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: to go a million miles offline. Like there was there 164 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: was risk to swing in a driver. And now the 165 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: club faces are so big and forgiving that you can 166 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: swing harder and you may not cast it in the 167 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: sweet spot, which you know oftentimes I don't, but you're 168 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: still gonna get it on the face and it's still 169 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: gonna fly pretty well and usually in play. Like they 170 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: could have taken more dramatic action than just just a 171 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: golf ball, Like, what do you think of where they 172 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: landed on this issue. I'm like, and like probably a 173 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: lot of people, I did take a couple of days. 174 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I've read 175 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: several articles, I've listened to several podcasts because because I'm 176 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: trying not to be, you know, quick to overreact or 177 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: to take some sort of dramatic stand, you know, for 178 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: the spirit of taking a dramatic stand. And again I'm 179 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: a I'm a I'm an amateur golfer. We are talking 180 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: about something that's going to affect one percent of the 181 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: one percent of the people that swing that hard, that fast, 182 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: that create that kind of energy with that size of 183 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: a club, you know, with the current ball on courses 184 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: that we see on TV. Because let's be honest, this 185 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: is about golf on TV. And that was my point there. 186 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: You know, at Augusta National the membership who plays there 187 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: day in and day out. The members tease is plenty 188 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: long enough for all members, and members don't go back 189 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: and play the crazy teas we're talking about, you know, 190 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: at Riviera. The membership at Riviera, that golf course is 191 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: plenty long and challenging for them. And at Cypress Point 192 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: and all the differences. Cypress isn't it on TV? And 193 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: Riviera and Pebble and Old Course are at Old Course 194 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: last year the most benign conditions absolutely no, no, no 195 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: traditional Scottish weather, which in large part is a factor 196 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: generally at in competing at that place over four days. 197 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: This was an outlier of a situation and camp Smith 198 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: won at twenty under and he won it by you know, 199 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: with his short game, with his chipping and putting, and 200 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: we marveled at at at his ability, and I think 201 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: we will in April marvel at people's ability to get 202 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: up and down around the green and hit the Scottie Scheffler. 203 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: The chips that are talked about are in those first 204 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: free few holes of the last round. It's not about 205 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: what he was hitting into thirteen or fifteen. It was 206 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: about his short game that that converted what should have 207 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: been two or three over to two or three under. 208 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: That was his short game. So one percent of one 209 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: percent for fifteen yards, okay, for you know, why is 210 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: it just the ball? Why why now, in the middle 211 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: of the ship storm that's happening in the world of 212 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: professional golf? Why why why now for something that we 213 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: will contemplate into August and then wouldn't go into effect 214 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: until twenty six. Can we just let this other stuff 215 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: kind of play out a little bit for a little 216 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: while longer. If you look at stats and facts that 217 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: since two thousand and four they're hit, there has been 218 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: pretty much a a moderation to what the advancements are 219 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: happening as it relates to the ball. Courses have made 220 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: the changers. Augusta bought the land that it needed to 221 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: make the changes to keep the thirteenth hole relevant. So 222 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: there's a couple holes, a couple venues, a couple people. 223 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: This involves, and we're talking about the tour, the elite 224 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: level player. Why not just involve the governing bodies and 225 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: these players. Why put all of us through all of us, 226 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: Why not go behind closed doors and at least everybody 227 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: get on the same page that there is some sort 228 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: of issue that needs to be dressed and then decide 229 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: how they're going to address it, in which they already 230 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: know that the tour is going to adopt it. Because 231 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: if they do this and the tour doesn't adopt it, 232 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: now we have more of a shit show. Now, it's like, now, 233 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: what does that mean to the USGA and the RNA, 234 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: the you Why not just raise the mowing levels of fay. 235 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: We see thirty to forty to fifty yards of roll 236 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: out right now on these modern mode fairways at these 237 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: classic venues. That to me is just as much of 238 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: an issue as swing speed and ball distance, because that 239 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: ball goes and then it just keeps going. So why 240 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: don't we talk about mower length? Why don't we talk 241 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: about loft of a driver? Why don't we just why 242 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: isn't it a combination of a few things? Why is 243 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: it just the ball? To try to simplify such a 244 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: layered decision and focus on one thing, one factor in 245 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: this spirit of this idea that it needs to go 246 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: back like freeze it now, keep it now, marvel at 247 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: cam Smith's thirty. Instead of saying this is a problem, 248 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: marvel at the guy achieved something that should be celebrated 249 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: forever instead of being the catalyst to some sort of rollback. 250 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: It just doesn't. I just think all of it just doesn't. 251 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. Let me read butt 252 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: a few of those things for the spirit of conversation. 253 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: I mean, why now, it's because Mike Juan took over 254 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: the USGA. I mean they have they have a new leadership, 255 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: they have a new energy, and you know they've they've 256 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: been They've been talking about this for twenty years and 257 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: the game has changed in since they started studying this issue. 258 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any doubt to Jeff's point. Even 259 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: though this rule is only going to affect the pros, 260 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: there is a trickle down. It will affect the average 261 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: consumer based on how much these manufacturers UH put into 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: R and D and what that means to our to 263 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 1: our game as well. So that's not a huge factor, 264 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: but it is a factor. So everyone everyone in golf 265 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: is touched in some way. But as golf consumers, I 266 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: would say, I don't think this is about camp Smith 267 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: or even Scottie Seffler. They're not the guys who are 268 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: pushing the envelope of driving distance. But um, when you 269 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: see like you know Bryson did to wing foot, which 270 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: is of course that Jeff holds deer, like the pro 271 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: game has evolved to drive or wedge on so many holes. 272 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: But putting some credit there too, Like everyone thinks he 273 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: just powered wing foot. He didn't. It was about his 274 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: short game and his putting that won him the tournament. Yeah, 275 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: that was a factor too. But I will say that 276 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: when when you watch when the tour goes to like 277 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: in an old course, like I think about the rocket 278 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: mortgage for instance, like every part four guys are hidding 279 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: wedges into and it gets it gets repetitive. It's like 280 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: just there's no danger. When when I when a tour 281 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: player has a wedge, a bad shot going to be 282 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: thirty feet like there, it just takes all the dispersion 283 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: out of it. The water's not in play, that the 284 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: trees and the bunkers aren't in play. And I do 285 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: notice as a golf viewer that there's a sameness to 286 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: the way the holes get played and and there's there's 287 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: just not that sense of they're not walking a tight 288 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: rope like they used to because the clubs are. It's 289 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: not just everyone likes to watch them hit it a 290 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: long way off the tea, but it's what happens after that. 291 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I just think it's a less compelling product. 292 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: And as you said, it's a TV show, And as 293 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: as a viewer watching golf for a long time, I 294 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: think it's a lot more boring now because the way 295 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: they play the game. That's that's my personal feeling. No, 296 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm totally with you, Alan. I think you said that 297 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: I would say the same way the only and I 298 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: would add to that, I would add I agree with 299 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: what Matt saying. It's not just one factor, an Alan, 300 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: to yours point is it used to be a little 301 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: scared to hit a driver. I mean even just in 302 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: the thirty years and we've been putting together at I've 303 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: gone from scared of the driver to love the driver, 304 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: in part because that bald doesn't curve as much as 305 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: it used to and part way a pipe put it 306 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: forward and launch it. In part because of the way 307 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: people design golf course to say, with no rough in 308 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: sixty yard fairways, there's no scare factor. So to Matt's point, 309 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: and I'm sure we would all agree with this, it 310 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: isn't just one factor. But the golf ball is a 311 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: place to start, as Nicholas has been saying, literally for 312 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: for for thirty or forty years, Jeff, how long will 313 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: it take for the pros to get their fifteen or 314 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen yards back? I mean you mentioned the grooves. Um, 315 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: there's there's always there's always a workaround, like, um, there's 316 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: there's going to be a way to to they roll 317 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: the ball back. But it seems like people are clever 318 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: enough that they can they can they can squeeze out 319 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: more yardage whatever they're given, Like this is this only 320 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: going to be an issue for a few years and 321 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: back to where they were right now? I imagine it's 322 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: probably gonna go that. I mean, I don't know how 323 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: that would do that, but and look, I don't know 324 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: enough about the signs that I'd be pretending like I'll 325 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: just be regurgitating what other people say it. But I 326 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: feel like one of the knocks on the way they 327 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: measure is they've always just measured off that one clubs 328 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: that one certain condition, and they measure how father ball goes. 329 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: And that's sort of the line. But there's there's stuff 330 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: in the equipment that we have now that triggers at 331 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: certain speeds and it can change at certain conditions. I mean, 332 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: they could conceivably design a ball the past the test 333 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: that you just swing it a little bit slower and 334 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: put a little bit more spin on it where there's 335 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: a different amount of loft on your driver or something, 336 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: and they will work out how to get it going 337 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: far again. And I mean they're going to do it, 338 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: which is why I think this is it just needs 339 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: to be well thought out if everyone thinks it's the 340 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: way it should go. And I mean just one little 341 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: point that Michael made about six yard fairways and no rough. 342 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: I mean Augustus got plenty of scary shots for sixty 343 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: yard wide fairways, and I don't think I mean, look, 344 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: there was a great someone wrote it about Hogan, or 345 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: it was a quote of Hogan's or someone said that 346 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: this was how he viewed his golf. I mean, he 347 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: measured his drives. He analyzed his drives in terms of position, 348 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: and he didn't measure him in terms of distance. So 349 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: position to him was more important than out and out distant. 350 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, distance is a part of position. But we've 351 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: ever since the last twenty as this was happening with 352 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: the equipment, the golf courses just played into the manufacturer's 353 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: hands and just rewarded exponentially rewarded distance so disproportionately from 354 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: everything else. The reason you see what you see on 355 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: tour is the golf courses are set up to challenge 356 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: you to hit it as far as you can, and 357 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: if you do, you can succeed. If you don't, you can't. 358 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: So twenty thirty years ago, pros weren't going home with 359 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: launch monitors and working on swinging with heavy and lightweight 360 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: clubs and trying to max out their speed and watching 361 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: long drivers swing it on Instagram. That's just wasn't a thing. 362 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: We were going home and trying to work on our 363 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: soft little fade with a sixth time because that was 364 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: what was rewarded. And so the golf courses and the 365 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: way they've set up and the reactiveness, I mean, this 366 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: is a bit of a reaction to a slow one, 367 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: but a reaction the reactiveness sort of the last evolution 368 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: of the reaction was to make golf courses longer and 369 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: to challenge long hitters more. Well, that just makes us 370 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: want to hit it further. And if you take a 371 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: ball and make it go shorter, we're just going to 372 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: work out how to make it go further. How we're 373 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: going to work out how to have the lower score 374 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: we can on the courses we get presented. And I 375 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,959 Speaker 1: think it's very realistic to present courses that proportionately reward distance, 376 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: not disproportionately. I mean, I know that's kind of what 377 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: the USJA we're trying to do at wing foot and 378 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: all that, and I guess it's not an exact science 379 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: and you can't do it always, but we're just going 380 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: to try to do I say we as as a 381 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: professional golfer, we're just going to try to get our 382 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: games to the point that get rewarded the most on 383 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: the challenges we get put And if you just keep 384 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: putting longer and longer courses that reward distance, that's all 385 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: we're going to focus on. I think it's just more 386 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: complicated than just changing away you measure the ball and 387 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: making certain conditions to go a bit shorter off the driver. 388 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a holistic if you genuinely want golf 389 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: to have a smaller fought print and use less water 390 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: and not have to buy land next door and all 391 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: these things that I think should be Really the only 392 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: reason we do this is to preserve golf courses, because 393 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: whether someone hits at three thirty on TV or three 394 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: fifteen on TV, you can't. That doesn't translate like any 395 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: average golfer goes down and watches PGA two players hit 396 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: any shots, really, they're blown away. It wouldn't even matter 397 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: if the ball went thirty yards shutter. They'd watch that 398 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: and go, wow, how good is that? Like that, the 399 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: entertainment product is great regardless of whether it goes three 400 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: thirty or three fifteen. I think it's got to be 401 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: a holistic approach to bring distance back into a sensible 402 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: level of reward as opposed to disproportionately. And I think 403 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: the general reaction with all golf courses is just like 404 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: how long can we make this? We've got to make 405 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: these long. Guys have to hit it even longer. And 406 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: that's just encourages the issue from my perspective anyway, and 407 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: add point to those that perspective there Aaron Hills versus 408 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: Harbortown Aaron Hills, big long essentially built for the modern 409 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: game played by modern players. Brooks Kepta wins because he 410 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: was like the best driver of the week Versus Harbortown. 411 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: You have to hit, you can't drive it through the fairway. 412 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 1: You have to shape it right and left. You have 413 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: to hit your spots, you have to hit those small 414 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: greens Harbortown like I think the answer is more towards 415 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: Harbortown and less Aaron Hills, which is exactly what you know, 416 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: built in the you know sixties, verse built you know, 417 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: built in the two thousands. I mean, that's a big 418 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: fundamental difference that played right into a long driver's long 419 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: driver's hands. I mean, Augusta is still one. Zack Johnson 420 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: and Danny Willet and Trevor Immelman and some of these, 421 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, some of these guys who win the Masters, 422 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: you know brooks kept and Dustin Johnson and or Adam 423 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: Scott or you know, it's not the longest hitter that's 424 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: not dominating the tours. Brandon Matthews is not dominating anything. 425 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: The Where is the last time the longest hitter wins 426 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: the tournament? It's just it's still so much more nuanced 427 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: than just going out and ripping a three forty. I 428 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: don't care what you have into the green. You still 429 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: have to chip and put where the pin placements are, 430 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: what the green complex look like, how the green speeds 431 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: are running the bunker positions. It's so you know, it's 432 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: so much more complex than just like we need to 433 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: roll the ball back fifteen yards. Bryson pitched, chipped and 434 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: put of the ball like a madman winning what a 435 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,239 Speaker 1: wing foot. So I'm not taking anything away from that, 436 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: but basically, hole after hole hole, he ad driver as 437 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: far as he possibly could to rough that he could 438 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 1: play out of. It was it was almost meaningless, meaningless 439 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: to him. And I think when you know, when we 440 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: talk about length and it always goes to driver, But 441 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: like the hooded five iron on a hot fairway that 442 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: goes to fifty, Hogan hit drivers two fifty to the 443 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: position and wanted to hit it and was happy to 444 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: do it. So the hooded five iron as a tea shot, 445 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't challenge Jeff Ogilvie and the two hundred other 446 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: best players in the world. But if I could just 447 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: post one question, because Jeff is the only architect in 448 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: this conversation. We're all architects in our minds, but Jeff 449 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: actually is an architect. Jeff, do you see in your 450 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: playing life and as you're thinking about Medon and some 451 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: of the other courses we work on that The notion 452 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: of the traditional golf course comprising part fives, part fours 453 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: and part threes is being challenged by the two hundred 454 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: and fifty yards five iron off the tea and the 455 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty yard drive. I don't know, we 456 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: don't really build stuff to apply, as Madonna is an exception, 457 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: and we obviously like having to think about that. I 458 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: don't think so. I mean, look, it's just a bigger 459 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: footprint than it was before. Really, I mean, I mean 460 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: we're all like, we all sort of fall in love 461 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: with the game, and we think of the game as 462 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: it's best when we were like the most in love 463 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: with the right usually, Like, I mean, it's just the 464 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: way it is. I mean, some people still get around 465 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: saying Vinyl records are better than Spotify, better than maybe 466 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: but Spotify. I've got every song in the world on 467 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: my phone, you know. I mean, there's that's pretty good, 468 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: you know. Um. And it's like Simon blades and balladas 469 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: at the old course in wearing like twee jackets and stuff. 470 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: I mean, that's really cool and nostalgia and stuff. But 471 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: the game has always evolved and it's always been moving forward. 472 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: It definitely accelerated twenty years ago. I think Carston Solheim's 473 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: got a big part of this with that pig lawsuit, 474 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: I think sort of triggered a couple of things. One 475 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: that Wow, there's crazy amounts of improvement and equipment. Guys, Look, 476 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: if you just put a bit of science into this, 477 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: you can make people better. And he sort of showed 478 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: people that for real, and that the manufacturers could push 479 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: the envelope a little bit and the man and the 480 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: rules bodies would be scared to keep up a little bit. 481 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: That that that was a pretty important situation. I think 482 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: that that whole pin groove issue and ever since them, 483 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just got faster, but everything has two. 484 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: I mean you can't stop time, you know, like you 485 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: just can't. I think golf is an incredible game now 486 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: do I think it's probably a bit more depth than nuance. 487 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: Back with the old stuff, probably it was more about 488 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: you and less about the equipment you were using before. 489 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: Now it's the equipment. It's a bigger part of golf. 490 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: But that's just part of what it is. And I 491 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: mean speaking from a from the player's side of things, 492 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean, these manufacturers, they've put us on TV they've 493 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: advertised us, We're in magazines, We've got big billboard golf 494 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: bags and hats. They're part of the celebrity of the 495 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: whole thing, like they're they're they're part. There's such an 496 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: integral part of the thing. If we'd all just used 497 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: no name equipment forever to a players wouldn't be as celebrity, 498 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be as big a deal. It just wouldn't be. 499 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: It's just a big part of the enthusiasm and money 500 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: and everything that came into the sports. So it's so 501 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: intertwined to just change one tiny little thing and expect 502 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: the whole thing to come back to where everybody wants it. 503 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: I just don't think that's going to happen, and I 504 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: think there's risk involved, which I think at a time 505 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: when the spirit of this change or this suggestion is 506 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: that golf is in a bad place, I think is awful, 507 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: because I think golf is in an amazing place. You 508 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: can choose to go out and play Godhill with a 509 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: persimon What if you want you know the game that 510 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: whatever game that you want, you can go find. You know, 511 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: you can get on an eBay, you can buy whatever 512 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: equipment you want. You can go play the game that 513 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: you want to play. Professional golf has never been more appealing. 514 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like to the money people in the world, corporate, 515 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: the corporate world, Saudi Arabia, everybody is obsessed with professional 516 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: golf at the moment. And I think it's it's so 517 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: complicated that one little rule I don't I think is risky, 518 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: and I think it needs to be well thought out. 519 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: And someone mentioned that I can't remember that everyone needs 520 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: to get on the same everyone needs to get in 521 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: the same room to get tight, the manufacturers and the 522 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: rules bodies and the golfers and a cross section of 523 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: everybody from every level of golf, And like, really think 524 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: this out, because I think, as I said at the start, 525 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: I mean, my favorite version of the game is probably 526 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: a little smaller version than that we play right now, 527 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that's the best version for everybody. 528 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: And I think it needs to be just thought out 529 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: and philosophically. Where do we think that we can sort 530 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: of put the guardrails or the regulations on this sport 531 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: to sort of keep it in the keep it in 532 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: the sort of wavelength we want to keep it in, 533 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: and just keep it inside there and off you go. 534 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: You can't stop evolution of equipment. You can't stop the 535 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: evolution of like working on our bodies and working on 536 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: our techniques, and you just you can't. You just can't 537 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: stop that stuff. It's just and it's part of why 538 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: people play. I mean, if you go to St. Andrews 539 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: and you go through I mean it's the original of 540 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: the original, and go through all those old golf shops. 541 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean they were coming up with clubs to play 542 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: out of water that were like that had holes in 543 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: them and like scoopy looking faces, and they had things 544 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: that looked like hybrids one hundred years ago. I mean 545 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: they this has been part of the game forever. And 546 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: you definitely have to put regulations. You have to put 547 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: sort of a line in the sand somewhere, I guess. 548 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: But just doing this isn't going to stop that move 549 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: forward of this sport. It's always just going to keep 550 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: doing it because, to be honest, that's part of why 551 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: people play it. I Mean, my dad loved golf, but 552 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: I think he loved walking around a golf shop and 553 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: buying new golf clubs more. You know that for him, 554 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: golf was the promise of distance and the new clubs 555 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: are this part is going to make more parts, or 556 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: this drive is going to go further on finally able 557 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: to draw the ball or whatever it is. That to 558 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: him and a lot of people, that's golf. That's their 559 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: favorite part of it. And I think when you start 560 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: messing around with stuff like that, I don't know, it's 561 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: it's a little bit woke in that it's just this 562 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: sort of this narrow loud band of rollback headspace that 563 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: makes the most noise, you know, and look and as 564 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: I said, I'm I'd be in that crowd quietly, you 565 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: know what I mean. But I think when you make 566 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: so much noise over there, you forget about all the 567 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: other great things in the sport. And I just think 568 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: probably some lines have to be drawn in the sand 569 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: at some point, because he bawls that go for one 570 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yards. That's silly, And at some point, 571 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: if it was unregulated, that would happen. Um. But I 572 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: think it just has to be done cleverly and wealth 573 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: thought out and not rushed into Well. It's important to 574 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: note that this these are not this is not a 575 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: rule yet, This is a this is a proposal and 576 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: a suggestion and this is the beginning of the comment 577 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: period where the USG is listening feedback from the manufacturers, 578 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: from from players, from everyone in the game. So we'll 579 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: see how how this evolves based on the feedback in 580 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: your age. If there are there are different constituents that 581 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: are that are noisy, and whether that have an effect 582 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: on what they do or not, we'll see. But I'm 583 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: not sure if the spear behind this is that the 584 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: golf is in a bad place or more maybe it's 585 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: golf is in a great place and we want to 586 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: keep it here. Because if if you get I think 587 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, driving distance among like the elite 588 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: pros went up four percent, which is not nothing. And 589 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: if it goes up four percent and then four percent 590 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: and four percent, then all of a sudden you're driving 591 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: a twenty five yards further than right now. That could 592 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: that becomes problematic on some golf courses, in some championships. 593 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: So ever, would say, well, they're trying to take us 594 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: back in time. Maybe it's just they're trying to slow 595 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: down the progress a little bit because whatever they cook up, 596 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: as you know, there's going to the players will find 597 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: a way. They always do it. I don't think this 598 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: ends progress. I think this just slows it in. You know, 599 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: I think that it's okay to have those guardrails, but 600 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: people may disagree with that. You know why, Zach Johnson's 601 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: a Hall of Famer in my mind because he's won 602 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: at Augusta and the old course. Like Zach Johnson in 603 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: the middle of all this, the guy, you know, it 604 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: just that that that that's that one percent, that group 605 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: of people, that that's that is going it's going to 606 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: be impact impacted here And again, why would this all 607 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: play out in the in this public forum. Why wouldn't 608 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: they have already gotten in the rooms with all the 609 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: people that it's going to impact and have everybody on 610 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: the same page and make it seem like there is 611 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: actual thought and leadership and you know, and some sort 612 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: of efficient execution to say this doesn't impact anybody. This 613 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: is all it impacted. We met with them, they are 614 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: on board, they're going to implement it. This is how 615 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: that's going to be used. Like this sort of crazy 616 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: discourse of reaction and overreaction and misinformation and and ill informed. 617 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: Just it's just not I don't think this is good 618 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: for the game right now. And I think this is 619 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: another opportunity for the for the people to say, what, 620 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, golf is such a good play, like just 621 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, the t sheheets are packed, just let it go, 622 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: let it, let it happen behind closed doors. I mean, 623 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: if they'd done that, I think there would have been 624 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: a bigger reaction like this is this is the fixes 625 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: in and you didn't listen to the stakeholders. But it's 626 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: only impacting those tour players at those events, at those venues. Yeah, 627 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: but as Jeff notes, I mean, the tour players have 628 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: a very specific agenda. They're paid by the manufacturers. They're 629 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: predisposed to taking that side of things and get them, 630 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: get them all in a room. Don't let people get 631 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: in press conferences and start, you know, just just it's 632 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: another layer of mess. You know, we got tour Verse live, 633 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: and now we got tour players versus a rollback, versus 634 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: the governing bodies with representing manufacturers. Oh my god, great, 635 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: great news. I think the tour players have their way 636 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: that nothing would ever change. It would just be like 637 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: let us just get let us just keep going and 638 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: going and going, and and it might be that way. 639 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: They might not implement this, They might not the tour. 640 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: Why would the tour do this? And who's going to 641 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: make a ball for that small of a marketplace. Who's 642 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: going to make a ball that they sell only to 643 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: a people group of people who don't actually buy balls. 644 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: Well there those people on TV, though, I mean, you 645 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: still you still want if your titleists, you still want 646 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: your ball to win the Masters and the US Open, 647 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: like they will make the ball. But well, I guarantee 648 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: you if you've been to R and D play, titleist 649 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: is still going to be the number one ball. No 650 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: one does golf balls better than the time if you've 651 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: been to their their fact I'm not paid by titleists, 652 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: but I've been around to different different factories, and titles 653 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: is always going to make the best ball. They just 654 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: that's what they're very good at. They're just incredible at it. 655 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: And they have got decades and decades and millions and 656 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: jillions of dollars into R and D. They're gonna it. 657 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: Just I don't know, this is so weird to me. 658 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: I think to your point, you know, when you say 659 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: another four percent year after year, we've had that four 660 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: percent for a long long time now and now we're 661 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, now we're talking about three fifty where they 662 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: used to talk about two seventy five. When when Jeff 663 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: talks about a line in the sand, the time for 664 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: a line in the sand came out a long time ago. Uh, 665 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: and they and the USJ and the RNA missed its 666 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: chance to draw the line in the sand, So at 667 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: some point it has to be the time to do it. 668 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: When Jeff's sisters always going to be advances, yeah, they're 669 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: always going to be advances, but at the same At 670 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: the same time, he says, but there's always going to 671 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: have to be requirements for rules. Yeah, they're going to 672 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: be requirements for the rules. So why not now because 673 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: now it's already too late. Well, it's a fascinating topic. 674 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: I don't think this is gonna be our last conversation 675 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: about this, and we'll see how how it all plays out. 676 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: But um, it's good to get some different thoughts. I 677 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: think we're all coming out it from there's a continuum, 678 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: and Michael's on one end, Matt's on the other. I 679 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: think Jeff and I are in the middle, and that 680 00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: that's why it's kind of interesting. There's there's not a 681 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: right I watched Jeff play goad Hill Park at the 682 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: Wishbone Brawl with uh, you know, persimmon woods and on 683 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: a forty five hundred yard golf course. You know, Jeff 684 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: practiced round the day before the Wishbone Brawl. You know, 685 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: I think you were like even par or something, you know, 686 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: through twelve holes or maybe one. On the next day, 687 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: you sharpened up, you made a bunch of putts, you 688 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: made seven birdies, You worked the ball like. It was 689 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: an incredible display of artistry that you know, not any 690 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: of us are ever going to be able to execute. 691 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: And it was fun. Forty five hundred yards. Again, have 692 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: a tournament at a forty five hundred yard golf course 693 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: where everyone plays persimmons and a lot of balls. Oh 694 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: my god, that could be something that would be that 695 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: would be an implication of like a little modern set 696 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: of rules at a different venue. Well, you know, why 697 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: isn't that Why you know, that's a rollback of club, 698 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, not a ball, but of distance of the 699 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: golf course, not of how far the ball goes. It's 700 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: a combination of a lot of things. And that in 701 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: itself was intriguing and it you know, I don't but 702 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: but there's kids now that have never played a per 703 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: semon would so why would it like that's not even 704 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: they don't even know what that even means. They've never 705 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: held one in their hands. It's so layered and complex. 706 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: Well hopefully for the listeners, we've cut through some of 707 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: those layers and it's brought a little insight, um as 708 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: a confusion. Yeah yeah, maybe maybe maybe we'll let let 709 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: this Marina will come back again in a week and 710 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: uh not for Matt Matt stuff. Um, but all right, 711 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: well let's um, let's let's call this uh act one 712 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: in in a multi act play, and we'll keep your 713 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: visiting as as as this the twisted turns of this 714 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: plot continue. But I think I think it's a good 715 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: start and I appreciate all the different perspectives here. So um, 716 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap up this Fire Drill podcast. Uh for 717 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger, Machinella, and most apecially Jeff Ogilvie out the stoundship, 718 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: thanks for listening, and be back out of soon. I 719 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: be big and I played the win, made a fortune 720 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,919 Speaker 1: with my shot game. Man. I ran the table, never 721 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: thought I could fall down. The winter time hit me 722 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: like a cannon. The ball and now I can't shake 723 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: this losing the street. Every road I take is a 724 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, can't 725 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: get them out, Trying not to think what I'm thinking about. 726 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: I got thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, 727 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: Trying not to think what I'm thinking about.