1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: The death penalty has been on the decline in recent years, 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,159 Speaker 1: but election day was a good one for capital punishment proponents. 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: One on balled initiatives in California, Oklahoma, and Nebraska, and 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: with Donald Trump, voters across the country elected a new 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: president who has been an outspoken advocate for the death penalty. 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: What are the practical implications of Tuesday's votes and what 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: does it say about efforts to abolish the death penalty. 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that with our guest, Robert Dunham, 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center. His organization 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: monitors the death penalty and serves as a clearinghouse for information, 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: but does not take a position on capital punishment. Rob 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: let's start with California, since since it's such a big state. Uh, 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: there are more than seven people on death row there. Uh, 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: the state hasn't executed anyone since two thousand six. I 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: believe there are two initiatives on the ballot. One would 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: have abolished the death penalty that failed, and then there 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: was one that expedited the appeals process for death penalty 18 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: a death row inmates. Well, the passage of that initiative 19 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: make any practical difference do you think, Well, it's hard 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: to say right now. UM, it's clear, you know, there's 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: been a concerted effort to try to repeal California's death penalty. 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: Proposition thirty four was tried and failed four years ago, 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: Proposition sixty two tried and failed. This year, Proposition sixty 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: six um appears to have succeeded with about a percentage 25 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: point and a half when. But it's not clear what 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: Proposition sixty six will actually do and whether it will 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: be able to obtain its ends. It says that it 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: would perform the death penalty system by expediting appeals uh 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: and making it so that executions can move forward, but 30 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: it's not clear that it can actually do that. Rob. 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: The story in Nebraska seems pretty remarkable that a m 32 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, the legislature had outlawed the death penalty, and 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: now the voters have brought it back. How did this 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: up in so quickly? Well, Nebraska is a is a 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: kind of special case. It was the first state in 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: which predominantly conservative legislature voted to abolish the death penalty. UM. 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: Then their veto their repeal was vetoed by Governor Ricketts, 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: and it became the first time in American history that 39 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: a legislature of the same party as a governor overrode 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: that governor's veto to abolish the death penalty. As a 41 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: result of that, we had two different things going on. 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: One was the governor trying to regain some political prestige 43 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: because he had had two other vetos overwritten by his 44 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: own party members UH, and he chose the death penalty 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: as the issue in which to stake, on which the 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: stake is political prestige. So he and his father, who 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: owns the Chicago Cubs, bankrolled in effort to put a 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: referendum on the ballot to bring the death penalty back. UH. 49 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: It passed by UM approximately sixty to forty, so it 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: was it was a pretty pretty substantial vote in its favor. 51 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: But it isn't clear now that it's done what Nebraska 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: situation is going to be. They still don't have the 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: ability to obtain execution drugs. There are still challenges the 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: constitutionality of the statute based upon the fact that judges, 55 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: rather than juries, are granted the authority to find facts 56 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: UH that result in the position of the death penalty. 57 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: So it's not clear there is a constitutional statute at 58 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: all that's there, but it's clear that Governor Ricketts intends 59 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: now to attempt to get the machinery moving and he 60 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: would like to get executions going again in the state. 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: I'd like to get into some of those issues you 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: were talking about the difficulty of getting drugs and other 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: pressures on the death penalty in a minute. But let's 64 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: finish going through the list. Oklahoma, which is a state that, 65 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: unlike California Nebraska, has been uh actively executing people are 66 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: at least attempting to UH tell us about the initiative 67 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: there in Oklahoma. UM. The Oklahoma death penalty process was 68 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: under court attack after the botched execution of Clayton Lockett. UH. 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: The United States Supreme Court granted review of death row 70 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: prisoners challenges to Oklahoma's method of execution, and while that case, 71 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: called gloss Of versus Gross, was pending before the court, 72 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: the legislature passed the bill to put on the ballot 73 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: a measure that would constitutionalize they're already existing power to 74 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: adopt different methods of execution if prior methods were declared unconstitutional, 75 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: but also to remove from the state courts the power 76 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: to declare the death penalty cruel and unusual punishment and 77 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: to remove the power in individual cases to say the 78 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: death penalty violated the state constitution. But but but federal 79 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: courts can still can still say that correct, that's correct. 80 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: So there, you know, there were a number of questions 81 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: about about the ballot question UH, and the proponents themselves 82 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: said that it didn't grant state legislature any powers that 83 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: it didn't already have. UM, and there also is an 84 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: issue about UH there is a commission that was going 85 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: to be reviewing and still will review Oklahoma's process and 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be too soon to vote while this 87 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: review was underway. The voters resoundingly said, um, we want 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: to protect the death penalty in the Oklahoma Constitution, and 89 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: they voted in favor of the referendum to thirty four. 90 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: Now what's interesting is the polls indicate that public support 91 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: for the death penalty in Oklahoma is above So the 92 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: referendum actually underperformed a bit, But it was clearly a 93 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: legislative response to the perception that the death penalty was 94 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: under siege. UH, and the legislature felt the need to 95 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: action to protect Oklahoma's death penalty. Well, rob the death penalty, 96 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, around the country. As as as as you sort 97 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: of alluded to earlier, I kind of complicated area illegally 98 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: in terms of what's required in order for it to 99 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: be constitutional. Why don't you take us through some of 100 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: the issues legally that the Nebraska and Oklahoma UH statutes 101 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: now are going to have. Well, there are a number 102 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: of issues the in Oklahoma and Nebraska. There are issues 103 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: about how to obtain the lethal injection drugs. Nebraska had 104 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: attempted to illegally import drugs from abroad, but under federal law, 105 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: you cannot bring medicines into the United States unless there 106 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: is an approved medical purpose, and killing prisoners is not 107 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: an approved medical purpose. So in Nebraska attempted to have 108 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: execution drugs imported. They were seized at UH. Well, actually 109 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: they weren't seized at the border. Federal express refused to 110 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: bring them in because they couldn't obtain appropriate paperwork to 111 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: do so. UH states like Texas and Arizona UH the 112 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: drugs ver seized when when they tried to bring them 113 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: in UM. Oklahoma has problems with its execution protocol and 114 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: in fact, after it botched the execution of Clayton Lockett, 115 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: who died forty five minutes into the execution of a 116 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: heart attack, they actually had called off the execution um 117 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: the The state then went ahead with the execution of 118 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Charles Warner and obtained the wrong execution drug and execute 119 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: him in violation of their protocol. They then discovered hours 120 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: before the execution of Richard Glossop that they had again 121 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: obtained the wrong drugs, and they halted that execution and 122 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: convened a grand jury, which was issued report that was 123 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: strongly critical of virtually every aspect of Oklahoma's execution process. 124 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: So that process remains under review UH, and it also 125 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: is the subject of legal challenges as to whether it 126 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: constitutes cruel and unusual punishment no. One of the key 127 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: things to remember, though, is that the challenge to the 128 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: method of execution is not actually a challenge to the 129 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: death penalty itself. If those issues get resolved relating to 130 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: the method of execution, then executions will be able to proceed. 131 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: But right now the method of execution is UH is 132 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: under challenge in many different states.