1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. We're not wearing hockey pads. Big 4 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: shout out to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan. 5 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: Is that your scary voice, Ben? 6 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Oh, that's actually my regular voice. I was heading from 7 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: a helium Ballue. 8 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: I love the time. That is a real commitment to 9 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 2: the bit. I respect and appreciate that you are Ben 10 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: in fact, and I am Nolan. 11 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: This is history right, Yes, yes, that's us. From earlier 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: we had such a fantastic exploration of the triumvirate history 13 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: of the phrase bloody Mary and I think we were 14 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: both surprised by the unexpected turns that exploration took. And 15 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: now we're talking about something another story with a lot 16 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: of hidden history behind it. One of the most popular 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: comic characters of all time, everybody's favorite billionaire Bruce Wayne aka. 18 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: Batman, coming to us from our research associated extraordinaire Andrea. 19 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: I don't think we've bestowed a nickname. You may people 20 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: Workshop Dowent. The last one we did from Andrea was 21 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: about the origins of the word Poluka, and that had 22 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: some awesome comics lore and history associated with it, and 23 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: today is no different because it is introducing us to 24 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: a character that many folks who are not deep comics 25 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: nerds might not be familiar with. A guy named Milton 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: Bill Finger. Yeah, Fingers, interesting surf, It really is. You know, 27 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: if you're picking a persona or a fake name, Finger 28 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: is Actually it's a brilliant choice, because it's so weird 29 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: that you would think no one chose that on purpose, right, yeah, 30 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: it would seem to be the case. Built him, built 31 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 2: in Mill Finger. I'm leaving it. He passed away when 32 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: he passed away, rather, he passed away and up to 33 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: what you would consider obscurity, long believed that his body 34 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: was buried in a potter's field, which is like a 35 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: pauper's grave. You might refer to that as But it 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: wasn't until later that history would remember Bill and give 37 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: him his due as being truly one of the hidden 38 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: hands in the creation of Batman the Dark Knight. 39 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we'll set a we'll set a bittersweet 40 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: cinematic tone here. Later history would learn that Bill Finger's son, 41 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: Fred Finger, had right, right, I remember that one well, 42 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: Fred claimed his father's body. It wasn't placed in a 43 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: potter's field. Instead, for his dad's wishes, Fred cremated his 44 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: father's cadaver and then brought his ashes to Manzanita Beach 45 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: in Oregon, and he spread those ashes in the shape 46 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: of a bat on the shore line. That's some dark poetry. 47 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: It is, indeed. Uh and yeah. Andrea points out that 48 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: when she first read that little detail, the song Kissed 49 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: from a Rose by Seal flashed through her mind and 50 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: she said she had a single tear. There used to 51 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: be a gray tower alone on the sea. That's a 52 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: banger of a song. By the way, it's contrary to 53 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: popular believe, not written for the movie. It was on 54 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: Seal's album, the self titled Seal Album. That's just how 55 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: he is man. Yeah. Have you seen the Sprite commercial 56 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: where he is Seal as a Seal? I loved it. 57 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: I did too, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah. 58 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: And we all know that Batman is a fantastically fascinating character. 59 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: And fantastically money generating character. 60 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and even in the world of fiction, he 61 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: is phenomenally problematic. 62 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: Because he how flawed he is, which is what makes 63 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: him interesting, and how human he is, which is also 64 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: I think what has always set him apart from other 65 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: superheroes and the associated tropes is that he's like a 66 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: goffed up, tortured dude taking perma revenge on the world 67 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: in the form of batties for the death of his parents. Yeah, 68 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: Edie's a billionaire. It's also true broody billionaire gothpeing yep, right, 69 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: and he. 70 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: Could fix We'll get into it, but basically, with his 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: immense money from large industries, he could fix systemic problems 72 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: with Gotham City. 73 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: But no, but no hunch, right, he's someone who SIPs. 74 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: Now, just find a mashpa dude anyway. Finger Bill Finger 75 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: is a creator of Batman. We all know and love 76 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: Batman from Gotham City. He's also the Bill is also 77 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: the creator of Gotham City, by the way, as well 78 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: as Catwoman and The Joker. He died like you noted 79 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: no inobscurity in nineteen seventy four, and he was unlike 80 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: his creation Bruce Wayne, he was not well to do. 81 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: He was penniless at this point. He had a creative partner. 82 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: Okay, this is not super super far off from the 83 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: Peluka story and that there were two kind of rival 84 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: comics people, comics writers, or in one of them got 85 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: all the credit and couldn't draw a frame to save 86 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: his life. If I'm totally spacing on their names, but 87 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: do check out the pollup episode that Andrea did as well, 88 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: really really really interesting stuff. Bob Kaine is the name 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: that you may be much more familiar with. That's the 90 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 2: creative partner in question here. He had developed a red 91 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 2: jump suit clad, domino mask wearing character that he dubbed 92 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: the Batman, which has kinda come back if I'm not 93 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: mistaken the Robert Pattinson movies. They're using the Batman again. 94 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: And this is good, so legalistic, so quickly. Oh yeah, 95 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: Caine's creation is the bat dash Man. Yes, of course 96 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: that's also true. 97 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: That lawyer just got very excited. Yeah, with lawyers, they 98 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: love their dashes. Definitely living a bit of a Bruce 99 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: Wayne asque existence, full of opulence, wealth, international acclaim. When 100 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: Caine passed away in nineteen ninety eight, he had this 101 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 2: epitaph carved on his tombstone. Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne Batman, 102 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: they are one and the same. I like a rhyme. 103 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: It's not bad. I like a rhyming epiitaph. 104 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: If it's true, and Andrea has pulls all these great sources. 105 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: Andrea has shared with us a depiction of Batman without 106 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: a dash and bat dash Man and tells us that 107 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: how these two luminaries came to disagree and make such 108 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: similar characters is indeed a bit of history that gets ridiculous. 109 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: So let's let's get to it, right. It's nineteen thirty eight. Oh, 110 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: this will also do I just remember this will remind 111 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: a lot of folks about our Captain Marvel episode. 112 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: Also true and a banger from research associate Jeff the 113 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: Jeffman Bartley, Jeff, I like that? Or Factor G as 114 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot about Factor G. So it's nineteen 115 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: thirty eight. Like you said, Bob Kaine's already established in 116 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: the world of comics. He is offering an aspiring writer 117 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: again very similar to the Peluka story. Yeah, a shot 118 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: to be. This guy's a part time shoe salesman, that is. 119 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: But yeah, a part time shoe that it seems like 120 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: getting insults injury. No shade on anyone that's shoes for him. 121 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: I know. 122 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: It probably means he works twenty five hours a week 123 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: or something. Like that and probably has multiple jobs. But 124 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: I'd love it if part time shoe salesman means he 125 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: only sells right shoes, left ship if you've got a 126 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: door across the street. 127 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: For the other one. But yeah, Caine gives this a 128 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: fellow a way out of the shoe grind, gives him 129 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: a job ghost writing strips, meaning of course that he's 130 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: not being credited, which is an interesting, uh sort of 131 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: what's the word foreshadowing here with adventure comics. Finger, being 132 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: a bit self taught, was very smart, well read, and 133 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: had the chops to get it done. He made an 134 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: impression on Cain from the get go. 135 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I love that you're pointing out the 136 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: similarities with the Polukaville rivalry here. So this guy Finger 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: has made a great impression on Daddy Caine at a 138 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: party where they met. 139 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: Daddy Kane rapper as a rapper, right, Yes, it is yes, Uh. 140 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: The success of Superman really informs the comic industry. 141 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: Oh seeding friendly. Everyone's looking for it to match that freak. 142 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: You know, let's we got to get something that's going 143 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: to rival Superman because it is an absolute feeding frenzy 144 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: for new superhero type. I don't think they're even calling 145 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: them that yet. At this point, it's. 146 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: Number one with a bullet, you know, the son of Krypton. 147 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: And add comics number one with a bull Yes, very 148 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: much so. And editors throughout the industry are already being 149 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: very j Jonah Jamison meme about this, Yeah, chopping their cigars. 150 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: They're power of the desk. 151 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: Get me my own Superman kids, exactly so. So Caine responds, 152 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: and this leads him to create the bat dash Man. 153 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: Uh. 154 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: And he took his inspiration from a film from the 155 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties called The Bat's Whispers, which I haven't seen. 156 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: Not to be confused with The Bat Whisperer, which is 157 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: different film entirely and a very heartwarming. So Cain had 158 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: this idea for the character, but he knew it needed 159 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: a little bit more fleshing out. And that's where Finger 160 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: came in. He was he was the flesh man. He 161 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: was the guy that added a little meat to the bones, 162 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 2: and Cain was more the idea man. It would seem 163 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: right hearing it directly from Finger, Cain had an idea 164 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: for a character called Batman. He does say at this 165 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: point in quotes here Batman with no spaces or dashes, 166 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: and he'd like me to see the drawings. I went 167 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: over to Caine's and he had drawn a character which 168 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: very much looked like Superman, with kind of reddish tights 169 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 2: that were later squeezed out into a bucket to make 170 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: pink lemonade. Sorry, I'm really harping on that. I don't know. 171 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: It's haunting me. 172 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: Oh, we need to It's it's high time, I believe, 173 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: he says, with boots and the fur, no gloves, no gauntlets, 174 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope. 175 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: He had two stiff wings. And in the image that 176 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: Andrea attached here, it is a comics panel of two 177 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: fellows looking at a like a like a conspiracy type board, 178 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: you know, like the red thread thing with Charlie Day 179 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: or whatever. And on one side we've got Batman as 180 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 2: we know it. The other side we've got the bat 181 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 2: dash Man with the red tights and the kind of 182 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: bat wing resembling rigid wings that he's describing. 183 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is still yeah, like a lighter by 184 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: the ways. 185 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: And under it was a big sign Batman. And that's 186 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: interesting though, because yeah, there is a little discrepancy in 187 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: these stories about the providence of the name, because we 188 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: have heard from other sources that this version that Caine 189 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 2: created was the bat dash Man, but then coming from 190 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: Finger himself, he's calling it Batman. 191 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is interesting. So Finger looks 192 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: at this, and it's common for any of us in 193 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: creative circles when your friends ask you for advice, you 194 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: always have to check and say, do you what do 195 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: you want? Do you want me to tell you how 196 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: I feel about it? Or do you want specific notes? 197 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: Right? 198 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: Do you want suggestions or do you want me to 199 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: or do you just want to show it to someone? 200 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: Finger probably puts his finger to his chin. It looks 201 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: at this because the. 202 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: Singer's your move, yes a finger finger, yeah. 203 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And then he says, I've got a couple 204 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: of notes. And just like a studio exec or no 205 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: offense to the three of us, an executive producer, his 206 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: couple of notes comment means he wants to change almost everything. 207 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: He starts with a costume, and. 208 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: He says, let's give him a cowl instead of this, 209 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: instead of this domino mask. Let's make this suit darker. 210 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: Because when you think of bats, you think of nighttime 211 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: and He looks at the creation by Lee Fulk the Phantom, 212 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: and so he says, Okay, we're going to take Cane's 213 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: the Batman and we're going to morph it into the 214 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: more modern Batman we know today. Finger also generates the 215 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: backstory because the way history tells it, it seems like 216 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: Cain was inspired to do something like but not quite Superman, 217 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: and past the idea of an association with bats. He 218 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: hadn't really thought through the lore. That's where the writer 219 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: Finger comes in. He says, Okay, what does this guy 220 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: do when he's not dressed like this? Well, let's make 221 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: him interesting. His name is Bruce Wayne, and I'm taking 222 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: that from Robert to Bruce, a Scottish king of Old Bruce. 223 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 224 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: Apparently I did not know this bit of history, even 225 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: as a comic nerd. Apparently Finger chose the last name 226 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: Wayne because it suggested gentry and colonialism. 227 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: Mmm. Yeah, no, I didn't know that either. And another 228 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: thing that I didn't know this word cowl. I've only 229 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 2: really ever heard it associated with the bat, helmet or 230 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And I want to 231 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: ask you and put this to you. Are all cowls? Hoods? 232 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: Are some hoods, cowls. Is there a crossover between hood 233 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 2: and cowl? What does a cowl make? Yeah? 234 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a crossover. I think technically it's 235 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: an overall garment and it comes from monastic practices. 236 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: For sure, definitely monkish. 237 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: Like a robe with a hood is technically a cowl, 238 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: but often, and perhaps incorrectly, I hear it used to 239 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: mean just. 240 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: The head piece. That's what I'm thinking, and that to 241 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: me is part is the distinction. And you can you 242 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: definitely see it's almost like a detachable hood that has 243 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: drapes that go over the shoulders as well, which is 244 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: totally what the Batman helmet hat cowl is. It's got 245 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: the hood part and then it goes down over the 246 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: shoulders and kind of down onto the chest a little 247 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: bit depending on the version. 248 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so maybe that's it. I think we're onto something. 249 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: It's technically a cowl because it goes over the clavicle. 250 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah right, shake stends past the Okay. 251 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: Let's go, let's go with it. Yeah, sorry, I had 252 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: to take that little etymological diversion there. 253 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: So Finger says. I tried Bruce Adams, I tried Bruce Hancock. 254 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: Then I thought of Mad Anthony Wayne. Oooh, Mad Anthony 255 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: what's his deal? 256 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: Right? 257 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: I love how he's saying that it's such a casual 258 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: of course, Mad Anthony Wayne. 259 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: Tone. Yeah, everybody knows about Mad Anthony. I'm sure there are. 260 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: A lot of history buffs who are scandalized right now. 261 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: So, uh, Noel and Chainsaw. 262 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: And I learned that Mad Anthony Wayne is a street 263 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: name for an American soldier and founding father named Anthony Wayne. 264 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: Whoa who looks exactly like George Washington? Yes, yeah, I mean, 265 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: I guess a lot of cats probably looked like that 266 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: back in those days. But it is uncanny, like the 267 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: the way he wears his hat, his posture, his powdered wig. 268 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: But again, probably not the most uncommon garb. But it's 269 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: really weird now I'm looking at all these portraits a 270 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: general outfit. Yeah, President, Wait a second, sorry, I went 271 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 2: down a quick off, Mike rabbit Hole. I'm like, was 272 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: Matt Anthony Wayne secretly the alter ego of George Washington? Right, 273 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: it'll be appropriate for this story, But no, he was 274 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: his own person. He was the fifth senior Officer of 275 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: the United States Army, hence the military garb and he 276 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: did serve under President George Washington. You know, he set 277 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: the tone for fashion choices. But did you. 278 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: Ever see them in the same room at the same time. 279 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: Did Never? Did? We definitely didn't because we weren't there. 280 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: But okay, so our buddy Finger clearly a well read guy, 281 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: knows a lot about history. He's taking inspiration for the 282 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: name Bruce Wayne from history, and he says, look, I'm 283 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: combining this freedom fighter, Robert the Bruce, with this crazy 284 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: revolutionary war hero, and that's perfect for Batman. This is 285 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: a wealthy taunt a playboy by day, but at night 286 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: he's super serious. He's superhumanly serious. He's a vigilante battles crime. 287 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: And he also doesn't have People will tell you he 288 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: doesn't have superpowers. I've winged about this on stuff they 289 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: don't want you to know at length. Being a billionaire 290 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: is a superpower. 291 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: So he was born on third Yeah, for sure. So 292 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: it is cool. Though it is, I still would argue 293 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: that it is an interesting foible. Let's just say that 294 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: the guy is a bit of a human man with 295 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: with you know, flaws, and he can't just vaporize you 296 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: with a look like Superman can do. So it did 297 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: make him a little bit more of an everyman relatively speaking, 298 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 2: despite the billionaire of it all. Finger conceived of Wayne 299 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 2: being like the detective, you know, with powers of deduction 300 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: and all of that, like a Sherlock Holmes type figure, 301 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: and perkine in a documentary many decades later. Finger was 302 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: a contributing force on Batman right from the beginning. This 303 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: is a lot of revisionist history from Cain that we're 304 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: going to get into. When you kind of had a 305 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 2: bit of a change of heart or a pang of conscience. 306 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 2: I made Batman a superhero vigilante when I first created him. 307 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: Bill turned him into a scientific detective. I mean, obviously 308 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: DC Comics stands for detective comics, So just putting that 309 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: out there. 310 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: It's also cool to see that this bears echoes of 311 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: other earlier comic strip heroes who were things like superpowered 312 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: doctors or super scientists. So there is a lineage there 313 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Maybe we can recommend some books to learn 314 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: more about this. Check out the STORENKO History of Comics. 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: This is where Finger talks at length about some of 316 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: his creations, including Gotham City. Okay, I'll say this DC 317 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: has a mixed bag hit or miss record with naming 318 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: fictional cities. I think Metropolis and Gotham are probably the best. 319 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the but what are some bad examples? I don't 320 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: think I'm deep enough to know. 321 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: Things like Central City, Key City. 322 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, got it. Not Yeah, Gotham is awesome because 323 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: it is very much New York, but it's not called 324 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: New York. It's New York but not New York. It's 325 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: almost this like I mean, let's just say a gothed 326 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 2: up version of New York and my favorite depiction of it. 327 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: I'm not deep into the comics, but I love the 328 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: Tim Burton Batman version of Gotham City. I think, oh, 329 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: I think your rules. 330 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd like I'd like more Danny DeVito as the Penguin. 331 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: I think it's great. 332 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: The New Anguin series was really good. 333 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 2: I was very good. And I love the Robert Pattinson 334 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: the Batman quite a lot. 335 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, did you see that deleted scene with the Joker? 336 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's great. Good. 337 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: Well okay, Well we want you to know how excellent 338 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: the end result was and how close Gotham City came 339 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to being called Civic City or coast city or capital city. 340 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: So the guy Finger literally goes to a phone book 341 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: for New York City and flips through the pages. He 342 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: sees a listing for Gotham Jewelers, and he says, that's it, 343 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: Gotham City. We can't straight up call it New York, 344 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: even though it is New York Noir. We can't call 345 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: it New York because we wanted anybody in any city 346 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: to identify with this. So people do refer to New 347 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: York as Gotham sometimes. Is that a direct reference to Batman? 348 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: Because this Gotham Jewelers that wasn't already a term used 349 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: to New York. Gotham in this respect, I imagined was 350 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: maybe a family name, or are some other kind of descriptive. 351 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: I think the use of Gotham to describe New York 352 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: came later and is maybe a direct reference to its. 353 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: Use in Batman. 354 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: You know, I think the vast majority of us associate 355 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: Gotham with New York because of Batman and the Batman universe. 356 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: But if you go to Untapped Cities dot Com and 357 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: look at Untapped New York, we see that the emergence 358 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: of the nickname Gotham for New York dates back to 359 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: a November eleventh, eighteen oh seven issue of a I 360 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: guess it just for laughs kind of satirical mad magazine 361 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: thing called Love. 362 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, from our boy Washington Irving, who I believe 363 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: wrote The Headless Horseman, came up with all of that 364 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: yidy hollow all that stuff. Very cool. I saw that too, 365 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: and that's really glad we looked at that at the 366 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: same time. 367 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: And the narrator of Irving's history of New York is 368 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: d Drik Knickerbocker. 369 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: No, it's not, is that true? Yes, amazing full circle, 370 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 2: that is where the magic happens. Man, I love it. 371 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: So Gotham City is born, and that was because of 372 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: a direct input from our boy Finger. He's also quite 373 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 2: adept at coming up with villain ideas and helping to 374 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: shape maybe some of Cain's broader ideas. Yeah. 375 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: The Finger writes the first issue of the Batman comic 376 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: book series, in which we are introduced to the Joker 377 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: and the Catwoman, and then Finger goes on to create 378 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: the concept of the bat Cave and the Batmobile. 379 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: And then if you have you seen and in the 380 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 2: first issue of Sandman, which was much more trying to 381 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: tie it in with the DC universe. There's a brief 382 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 2: Batman moment where it shows the bat Cave with these 383 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: oversized pennies and like there's a t Rex or something, 384 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: and I guess that's a reference to this old timey 385 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: version of the Batcave. And I'm only just now putting 386 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: that together because I was very confused when I first 387 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 2: saw that, because I was not familiar with the early 388 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: Batman comics and that lore. 389 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's sort of a I think it's 390 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: a nod to trophies he's collected from. Weird supervillains. DC 391 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: also went crazy on super villains that maybe don't necessarily 392 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: have an extraordinary ability, but they have gadgets or they're 393 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: just really hung up on something, like a mad Hatter 394 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: or calendar Man. 395 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: Calendar Man. Calendar Man that sounds like the dullest supervillain ever. 396 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: He is like really in the leap year, Like what's 397 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: his beef? He is? 398 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: He commits crimes that are like holiday themed. Okay, are 399 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: making this up? I swear, dude, this and this is thing. 400 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: There was a reboot of calendar Man that turned him 401 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: into a serial killer, which was darker, made a lot 402 00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: more sense. 403 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 2: Apparently, the new James Gunn bat Superman. That's being really 404 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: divisive already. Some of the early reviews some people were 405 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: not a fan. But it does apparently lean more into 406 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: some of these absurd kind of early kind of schlocky 407 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 2: comicsy stuff. It's got like Mister Terrific and a lot 408 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: of these like sort of lesser you know, characters that 409 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: maybe you're not familiar with. I want you to see it. 410 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 2: There's a dog, apparently a super dog. I did just 411 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: want to say, Ben, I thought I heard a really 412 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: interesting quote from the singer whose her name is Aurora, 413 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 2: and she's a very quirky, little Icelandic lady and very 414 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: byork asked. But in her own right, she's got, she's talented. 415 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 2: She had this to say, how come super villains are 416 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: always trying to change things and superheroes are always trying 417 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: to keep things the same? Oh that's great. I love that. 418 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty good. 419 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think Bill Finger would like that. 420 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: I think he would do. 421 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: So Bill goes on to create Scarecrow, the Penguin Commissioner Gordon, 422 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: and of course Batman's sidekick Robin the Boy won he 423 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: needed a bit of a Watson figure, didn't he Yeah, yeah, 424 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: I think you're right. And this is where we start 425 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: to see these creators come to not blows, but it 426 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: come to a divergence point our buddy Caine. He says, look, Robin, 427 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: his origin should parallel the origin of Batman, and then 428 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: Finger says, I hear you, but let's make his parents 429 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: circus performers. They can still get murdered. I know that's 430 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: important for you, but they're murdered during a trapeze act. Okay, cool, 431 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: a bit of a sart distill at mishap. 432 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: It's true. And if there is one version of that 433 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: that I will always remember, it is from a very 434 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: bad Batman movie Batman and Robin. But I do remember 435 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: the way it's depicted his parents, you know, eating in 436 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 2: on the trapeze. 437 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: Is that the one where they gave the Is that 438 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: the one where they put nipples on the suits? 439 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: They put nipples on the suits, nipples on a breastplate. 440 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: It's true, all of those, Yon Debunt. I think that's 441 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 2: the guy that directed it. I'm not mistaken. 442 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: Well, it's it's tough to work in entertainment, so making 443 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: movies is hard. Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic. 444 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 2: No, sorry, it is Joel Schumacher. He's the one who 445 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: did the nipples on the batsuit Batman movies. 446 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's tough to work in entertainment. It's making 447 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: and making a movie is hard. H So back to 448 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Kane and Finger. Finger says, look, Robin is the outgrowth 449 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: of a conversation I have with Bob Bob Kine uh 450 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: and he describes the excellent comparison you made earlier. He says, 451 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: Batman is a combination of Douglas Fairbanks and Sherlock Holmes. 452 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: Holmes has a Watson, and this is what sticks out. 453 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: Finger is not necessarily chasing the best story here, He's 454 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: chasing a practical problem. He says, look, Batman doesn't have 455 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: anyone to talk to. 456 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 2: Do we not have an Alfred yet? At this point, 457 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 2: we don't have an Alfred? Y interesting? 458 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: Okay, you know that's a great question. I'm not sure 459 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: where we have an Alfred just yet. But we know 460 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: that Alfred is usually in weighing manor right, or in 461 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: the batcave. So when Batman's out busting heads and doing investigations, 462 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: he's always having an interior monologue. And Fingers like, we 463 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: got to get this guy someone to talk to, because. 464 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: It would appear that Robin came before Alfred, so he 465 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: literally had nobody. Yeah, he was all alone in his 466 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: giant mansion. 467 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: And also Robin is great marketing for the demographic right 468 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: of circus performers. Speaking of circuses, let's go to the 469 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: clown Prints of Crime, one of the most well known 470 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: comic book villains of all time and arguably a dark 471 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: mirror of Batman because he is brilliant. He also loves gadgets, 472 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: and he also has no superhuman powers. 473 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm really into the imagery. I haven't read 474 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 2: a ton of them. I've read a few of the stories. 475 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: But there is a alternate universe version of the Joker 476 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: that I believe is called the One Who Laughs or 477 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: something along those lines. Maybe that's the name of the series. 478 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: But he's got like he's all sm m'ed out and 479 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: has like spikes on around his eyes. He looks like 480 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 2: a freakin hell Raiser character. 481 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the dark version of Bruce Wayne who got 482 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: poisoned by Jokers. Joker gas his evil laughing gas, and 483 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: it drove that Bruce Wayne crazy. 484 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: Right, And it's the Batman who Laughs, is what it's 485 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: called so obviously a reference to this whole situation where 486 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: inspiration was taken from a film version of Alexandra Duma 487 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: and Victor Hugo. It was like believe a silent film. 488 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: And Sir, I think I'm getting a little confused here 489 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: because there are some overlapping versions of this. The what 490 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: they're talking about is a series of English translations of 491 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: Alexander Duma and Victor Hugo, and the volume that they 492 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: had they were referring to was called The Man Who Laughs, 493 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: which is originally published under the title By the Order 494 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: of the King. 495 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and by this point there have been some adaptations 496 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: of the show. We know Fingers looking at the book, 497 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: but he's also probably aware of him and Kane both 498 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: of the film adaptation, which I think we're both more 499 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: familiar with, the nineteen twenty eight The Man Who. 500 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: Laughs and he looks like the joker, I mean the 501 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: actor portraying him here. It's a German expressionist film and 502 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: looks at it. I mean, it's very Cabinet of Doctor 503 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: Kaligari type vibes by Carl Lemley and the actor portraying 504 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: this character is named Conrad Vitz and he has this 505 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: rictus grin, and even the same hairline and kind of 506 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: puffy hairdoo that the joker ultimately had, not green though, 507 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: or wearing makeup joker. 508 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: Makeup right, No, he's just he's had an operation that 509 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: fixes that rictus smile. Creepy, it's super creepy. I'm into it. Also, 510 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: Bill Finger is only looking at these comparisons or inspirations because, 511 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: according to him, he talked about the idea of a 512 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: clown prince of crime with Bob Kine. Bob made a 513 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: sketch that did not look like a joker. It looked 514 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: more like a clown, and so he and Bob worked together. 515 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: He gave Bob this picture the man who laughs, and 516 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: then Bob takes as a as an inspiration or starting 517 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: point of reference is the word we'd use in art, 518 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: and he starts working over the face. He says, okay, 519 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: he'll be a little bit clown like so, white face, 520 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: red lips, green hair, but not all the way clown. 521 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: You know, he has a regular. 522 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 2: Nose exactly, no, exactly, not the Hong Kong knows of 523 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: classic circus clowns. Finger has this kind of scrap book idea, 524 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: you know, little black book situation full of random facts, 525 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: newspaper clippings, and notes that he could use in future 526 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: Batman stories. He would ride the bus every day to 527 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: get where he was gone and take in the New 528 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: York city scapes, which further fueled the inspiration for Gotham. 529 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: The Wayne's family's tragic demise and the clashes between Batman 530 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: and the underbelly of Gotham were absolutely a product of 531 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: this solitary existence that that Finger led. 532 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: Exactly, and this state of isolation is Fingers inspiration. 533 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: In some ways. 534 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: This gives Cain the opportunity to fully put himself in 535 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: the limelight. So you know, there are some creative duos 536 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: where one maybe Empire of the Sun is a good comparison. 537 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: Remember that band from Perth. Two guys, Yeah, dancing kind 538 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, but one guy is very much in 539 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: the forefront, right, and he's the he's the big theatrical 540 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 1: draw and they're friends, they're great musicians. They just have 541 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: a different, different approach to the public. And that's what 542 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: we see with Cain and Finger. Finger is kind of 543 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: hiding away and Cain is walking into the limelight and 544 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: talking about Batman, right, And it seems that over time 545 00:32:53,960 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: Cain starts to purposely push Finger further into the background, which. 546 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: Is kind of the borderline beginning to push him out. 547 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also ungrateful because Batman wouldn't exist without Finger, right. 548 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: He figured out a lot of things that were key 549 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: to Batman's success. But Kane was effective with his fans. 550 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 1: He would show up in an expensive suit or get this, folks, 551 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: a cowl. 552 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: And he uh. 553 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: He wrote a self aggrandizing autobiography that kind of reminds 554 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: me of the way Edgar Allan Poe would write very 555 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 1: high faluting explanations of his poems like never More and 556 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: so on. 557 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: It's worth a read if you would know for sure, 558 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: I'll check it out. 559 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: Apparently, though, he does cross over to the dark side 560 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: because Cain's king becomes accused of passing off other people's 561 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: oil paintings of Batman as his own birth. 562 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: This is again another parallel from the Peluca story. That 563 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: guy was taking a lot of credit where credit was 564 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: most certainly not due. But you know, his actions ultimately 565 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 2: led to him being in the catbird seat. As far 566 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: as you know, the financial successes of Batman as a 567 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 2: piece of intellectual property that would prove to be incredibly valuable. 568 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 2: Andrea puts it that Kane villainously executed deals and negotiations 569 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: with the explicit purpose of keeping Finger out of said deals. 570 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: Per comic book historian Arlen Schumer. Unfortunately, the deal happened 571 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 2: because Bob Kane had the lawyer father, and Bill Finger 572 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: was shy. Bob Kane went in and his father made 573 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: sure that his name was on it. That's how Bill 574 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: Finger ended up getting shunted away from his co creation. Terrible. 575 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: You hate to see it, you know, because so much 576 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: of creativity is collaboration. Dassie Comics said, Okay, we'd love this. 577 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 2: We need our own super. 578 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, we need some more of this, and so they say, 579 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: we're going to publish the Batman comics for you, and 580 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: Cain make sure that he is the only one who 581 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: gets to showcase Batman to DC. He's the guy who 582 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: gets to talk with the big execs about this character, 583 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: and under the advice of again his father, who is 584 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: an attorney, he negotiates sole credit as the creator of 585 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: Batman and a percentage of everything DC Comics may license 586 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: the character on in the future. This is a gold mine. 587 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: Batman works out. Cain amasses ten million dollars throughout his life, 588 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: and in the same time, in doing so, he has 589 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: sacrificed the guy who made him successful. His former pal 590 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 1: Bill Finger is relegated to obscurity. Cain draws the comics. 591 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: He also credits himself as the writer, and Finger is 592 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: nothing more than a ghostwriter. Nobody really knew about this, 593 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, when they're reading comics at the time, they're 594 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: just thinking, this Bill Kane guy. He's a real tour 595 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: right in the comic world. And it's not till nineteen 596 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: sixty five that Bill Finger gets named as co creator 597 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: in something I didn't know existed, a fanzine dedicated to Batman. 598 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: So not part of DC, just a guy named Jerry 599 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: Bales who loves Batman so much that he makes a 600 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 1: magazine about how he loves Batman. It's a little meta. 601 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: It is Matta And just a quick mention, I'm a 602 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 2: big fan of the podcast of the Ringer Network, like 603 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: you know, The Big Picture and the Watch And if 604 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 2: you want to get into some Batman deep dives, there's 605 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: a podcast called The House of r that has an 606 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: episode called literally the Batman Deep Dive, where Joanna Robinson, 607 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: who's one of my favorite hosts on the network and 608 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: her co host Mal dig deep into the history of 609 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: DC comics and Gotham's underbelly. 610 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: This is so weird because now you mentioned it, you 611 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: inspired me just to check on the fly here on air, 612 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: I found a list of multiple Batman podcasts twenty best 613 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: Batman podcast. Wow, Holy RSS feed. I didn't know there 614 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: were so many out there. Well, that's cool, man, Yeah, 615 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: check it out. Let us know what you think. We 616 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: know that by the mid nineteen sixties, as more audience 617 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: members are learning about the existence of Bill Finger, we 618 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: see that he makes a rare appearance in New York City. 619 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: Actually people know about him because this notoriously shy guy 620 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: does actually show up in public, and that's what inspires 621 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: the digging into the story. He's at the New York 622 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: City Comic Con and afterwards there's an article in this 623 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: Batman fancy called if the Truth Be Known or a 624 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: Finger in every plot, and it talks about how we 625 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,959 Speaker 1: were misled, how Cain was not the one man army 626 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: of Batman, but did indeed have a lot of help 627 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: from a guy you've never heard of named Bill Finger. 628 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: And Cain responded with his own angry letter condemning Fingers 629 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: claim to Batman, stating Bill Finger has given out the 630 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 2: impression that he and not myself created the Batman, as 631 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: well as Robin and all the other leading villains and characters. 632 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 2: This statement is fraudulent and entirely untrue. This is myth. 633 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 2: The truth is that Bill Finger is taking credit for 634 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 2: much more than he deserves, and I refute much of 635 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: his statements here in print. 636 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, he says, this is so Poluka. The only proof 637 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: I need to back my statement is that if Bill 638 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: co authored and conceive the idea, either with me or 639 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: before me, then he would most certainly have a byeline 640 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: on the strip along with my name. It's been twenty 641 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: five years now, and truthfully, times sometimes blurs the memory, 642 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: and it's difficult to separate at times, So that I 643 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: cannot blame Bill too much. If at times his memory clouds, 644 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: I'll say it, I don't you know what I know 645 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: A letter writer thirteen or PG. Thirteen But what a dick. 646 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 2: It is a move, for sure, But I just I 647 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 2: do stand by. I do love old school letter feuds. 648 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: Oh I love that you don't write like this anymore. 649 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: If your insolence is borish and shall not stand and 650 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: it shall not. Yes, Okay, there is a big problem 651 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: here because that one article shouting out Finger is pretty 652 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: much the only voice in the ocean. Yeah, misinformation, and 653 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: Finger passes away in obscurity, very much isolated. In nineteen 654 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: seventy four, as we mentioned, his heart gives out, Cain 655 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: lives long enough to see the box office film adaptations 656 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: of Batman. 657 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: And it's banging depiction of Gotham City, which, as we know, 658 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 2: you know, very much a product of the imagination of 659 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 2: Finger and his solitary you know, journeys throughout New York 660 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 2: City on the bus. 661 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what a beautiful image, you know. And I 662 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: think we're both fans of being strangers in a strange land. 663 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: I just love being out in an unfamiliar place and 664 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: soaking it in anyway, for one reason or another, perhaps 665 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: he's mellowing with age. Perhaps he sees the massive cinematic 666 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: success of Batman. We don't know why, but Cain develops 667 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 1: a guilty conscious of sorts, and he later says, Bill, 668 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer. 669 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of 670 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: the Joker. That's the way I sum it up, and 671 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: then he shouts out the man who laughs just like 672 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: we did. And he's saying this because he wants people 673 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: to realize that he and Bill created the Joker, not 674 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: this guy Jerry Robinson. 675 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 2: So only now does he give credit where credit to 676 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 2: dude to like get rid of the secret third thing 677 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: right exactly. 678 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: And he he says that if he could do this 679 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: all over again, he would give Bill Finger his due 680 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: credit on Batman. And he says, now that my longtime 681 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill 682 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was 683 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: an unsung hero. I often tell my wife, if I 684 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: could go back fifteen years before he died, I would 685 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: like to say, I'll put your name on it now. 686 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: You deserve it. 687 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 2: I'm big of you. Yeah, I will. 688 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: Not million dollars, Yeah, not a pauper's great, but certainly 689 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, yeah, not terrible. 690 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: But you know, DC did eventually follow suit. They refused 691 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 2: for a long time to credit Finger, but in twenty twelve, 692 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 2: after the release of a biographical graphic novel Bill the 693 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 2: Boy Wonder about Fingers life by a French author Mark 694 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,240 Speaker 2: Tyler and Nobleman. Also a Hulu documentary that was released 695 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 2: based on Nobleman's book. DC finally gave in and decided 696 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 2: to give credit to Finger as co creator to Batman. 697 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 2: After seventy six years, Fingers name does finally appear on 698 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 2: the cover of every Batman comics issue in future TV 699 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 2: and film adaptations that would be released from that point on. 700 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 2: So a bit of a happy ending there, if not 701 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 2: in dude's lifetime. 702 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, which happens so often in the creative arts. You know, 703 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: we have a joke in the world of writers, how 704 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: do you become a successful writer? 705 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 2: Diem h. Yeah. Unfortunately it is the same with a 706 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 2: lot times with painters, and you know, many brilliant people 707 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 2: who have not who are not appreciated in their lifetime. 708 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: But you know, so it goes. In twenty seventeen, Finger 709 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 2: is honored with a street being named after him in 710 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 2: New York City at easton one hundred and ninety second 711 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 2: Street Way uptown between Grand Concourse and Valentine Avenue was 712 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 2: renamed Bill Finger Way. 713 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: Which here's what I like about this, that is such 714 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: an interesting name for the Bronx. Is the Bronx that 715 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: you will you would see that street name and then 716 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: if you look it up you will learn the hidden 717 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: history of Batman. 718 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 2: That's true. 719 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: That's kind of cool. I'm down with that. No, that's cool. 720 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 2: I like it when they named streets after creative people, 721 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 2: Like there's the Beastie Boys. I want to say, got 722 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 2: a street in New York named after them recently, So 723 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,280 Speaker 2: there you go. Fingers name, first reported by the South 724 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 2: Bronx blog Welcome to the Bronx, appears blocks from Poe Park, 725 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 2: where Canaan Finger would sometimes hang out to talk about 726 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 2: Dark Knight business and mythos. 727 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 1: Oh and this gives us some breaking news. This happened 728 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: just yesterday week recording on Thursday, July tenth. But Jack Kirby, 729 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: the legendary creator for Marvel, he just had two streets 730 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: named after him. 731 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 2: Oh, like this week. 732 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: Maybe that's because the Fantastic four film is coming out soon. 733 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: I think that must be true. Man, there is an 734 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 2: origin story Fantastic form would be coming out that looks 735 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,720 Speaker 2: like a lot of fun. Agreed, And we hope you've. 736 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: Had a lot of fun traveling down this road with 737 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: us through the hidden history of Gotham and Batman and 738 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: the Man. 739 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 2: Who laughs big. 740 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: Thanks to our super producer Max Williams, who will be 741 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 1: returning tat It Up Big. Thanks to our guest superproducer 742 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan, who Else, who Else? 743 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: Oh Boy, Chris Frasciotas Eve, Jeff cots Here in Spirit, 744 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,280 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strick on the Quistar, aj Mohammas, Jacob's The Puzzler. 745 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: And of course our dear rude Dudes of Ridiculous Crime. 746 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: If you dig us, you'll dig them. Join us for 747 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: our classic coming out this weekend, as well as our 748 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: further adventures in the weeks and days to come. 749 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 750 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,760 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 751 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.