WEBVTT - The 3-D's 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:19.159 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:23.360 am your host, Jen Kirkman. Thank you all again for 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.000 listening and for the kind things that you were saying 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:28.440 about the podcast and how much it's helping you. And 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:30.960 if you want to send me an email that you 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.560 want me to read on air, please send to Anxiety 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.520 Bites weekly at gmail dot com. Now again, somebody goes 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.400 through these for me, so and he hate mail or 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.120 marriage proposals, I won't see them, but if it's something 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:50.360 that's appropriate for the show, happy to read on air. UM. 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.600 There have been some requests for certain kinds of topics 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.800 and I would love to accommodate all of that. The 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.800 main issue is that we recorded a lot of these 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:03.360 episodes in advance, UM, and then I had to move 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.279 to New York for a job and I'm currently working 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.000 full time and so UM, I have a very small 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.800 window where I can record episodes, and not every guest 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.240 is available at this one hour that I have available 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.840 every week, So you know, trying my best, trying to 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.760 get as many different guests on as I can in 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.720 all different areas, but um. Anyway, today's guest, it's you know, 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:34.559 I was thinking, I always have a big, like one 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.440 topic that really interests me in a certain guest, and 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.640 then I see where the interview goes from there. And 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.319 I always start with just something else and then I 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.240 go down the rabbit hole of what I'm talking about 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.040 with the guests, which I love. I mean, my favorite 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.960 part of doing this podcast is is not the research 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.120 and guests for the show or updating my social media, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.840 it is actually talking to people about anxiety. I just 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.400 sort of lose myself and I enjoy doing it so much. 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.720 But the big reason that I wanted to have Joshua 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.679 Fletcher a k A Anxiety josh is UM. He's known 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.440 on Instagram. That's how I first knew of him. He 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.720 talks about something that I rarely to never see any 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.799 other experts in anxiety, and josh is a psychotherapist talk 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.040 about which is as he calls it, the three d S, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:31.080 which is de realization, depersonalization, and dissociation. And I have 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:37.119 experienced feelings of depersonalization and de realization. I think it's 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.239 mostly de realization in an anxiety attack or a panic attack. 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.520 Rather sorry because as we know there's really no such 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.480 thing as an anxiety attack. There's anxiety and then panic attacks. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.440 So what's interesting about this is it's one of my 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.680 biggest symptoms, and it was, of course one of the 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.840 scariest ones that I had before I had any words 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.760 for any of this. And it's the hardest one to 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.520 do scribe because how do you describe feeling like you're 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.200 not really there. It doesn't feel like fainting, although I've 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.880 never fainted, but I imagine from what I've seen in 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.000 the movies that fainting happens rather quickly, and it's almost 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.200 like you don't know what happened, but de realization, it 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.400 just seems to go on and on, and it it 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:25.560 feels like the only way I can describe it. There's 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.359 a scene in the movies sixteen Candles, which by the way, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.320 does not hold up. I haven't seen it recently, but 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.959 just even thinking about it, I'm like, oh lord, I 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:34.720 didn't even really love it that much in the eighties, 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:39.280 to be honest. But one of the characters, I forget 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.520 everybody's name, but the the dorky one, the younger one 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.640 that wanted to hang out with the cool kids. He 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.480 ends up at this party and in the morning he 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:52.400 has trapped under a glass coffee table and he's banging 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.360 on it, and once the debris is cleared off the 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.880 coffee table, we can see him under there. That's to 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:03.720 me what feeling of de realization feel like. Like you're 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:09.040 kind of trapped. People can see you, but you feel 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.040 like you're behind a glass, like you're not really there. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.360 And it's not an emotional feeling. I'm not giving a 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.120 metaphor for Oh, I feel disconnected from people. No, I 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.480 feel disconnected from myself in those moments. It feels almost 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:26.400 like you might float away or turn invisible or something. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.320 I wish it felt as concrete as oh, I think 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:34.240 I'm about to faint, But it's it's different. And I 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.960 actually had the weirdest phobia as a kid. And as 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.960 I say this out loud, I'm sure a ton of 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.240 you will say, well, I've actually had that too. Because 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.440 my theory is if I thought it with my human 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.520 brain than other human brains have thought it, I couldn't 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.120 be that unique. But I had a fear of losing gravity, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:57.360 very specifically that I would lose gravity. What does that mean, Well, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.440 we walk around all day, not flying, around the air 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:05.160 because of gravity keeping us tied to the Earth. Very 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.440 grateful for that, I had a fear that suddenly, one 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.839 day gravity would stop affecting me. Now, I don't know, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.200 you might diagnose me as a narcissist just hearing that. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.800 But the reason I think I had that bizarre phobia 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.159 it would only come up during feelings of de realization, 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.440 right before I would go into a massive panic attack. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.520 And then that was the kind of thought loop that 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.520 my brain would think as I was panicking, Oh my god, 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.960 what if you lose gravity? And then what, I don't know, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.000 I'm going to fly up into the atmosphere, you know, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.200 which I think would be pretty terrifying to leave Earth's 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:48.360 atmosphere without the accoutrements of a rocket ship and all 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.839 of the helmets and things that you would need to 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.200 you know, breathe. And so that's the best I can 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.000 explain de realization. The other way I could explain it, 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:04.920 maybe is if you've ever um fallen to sleep and 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.120 then you kind of jump and wake up, and you're 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.880 not fully awake, but you're not asleep anymore, but you're 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.240 somewhere in the middle. And I don't mean sleep Perlyssis, 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:19.680 it's it's just that weird feeling of it's sort of 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.360 like that, but again, it usually happens for no reason. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.680 At least in those weird sleep moments, I can say, well, 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.120 I'm somewhere between sleep and waking. Just try to go 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:33.000 back to sleep. So so I talked to my guest today, Josh, 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.480 about that, because I've never seen anyone really talk about it, 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.520 and he explains it really well. He um has posted 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.520 about it a lot on his Instagram, and we end 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.320 up talking about this subway that I take sometimes that 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.040 gives me feelings of de realization and I had been 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.080 avoiding it lately. So at the end of this episode 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:56.520 you'll here my update on that. But anyway, so let's 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.440 just get right into the episode. But of course I 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.960 get to the de realization like closer to the end 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.400 of the episode. But um, that's okay. It was a 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:09.000 great chat, and I love to talk to people who 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.880 do this for a living about their own experiences with 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.360 anxiety and and kind of what the world of being 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.960 a psychotherapist is like, in the sense that there are 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.200 a lot of different methods of doing things, and different 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.080 methods work at different times for different people knowing what 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:32.440 to do when for what person. And uh, I think 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.280 it's also very interesting when your psychotherapist has had their 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.880 own experiences with anxieties. Josh talks honestly about his I 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.440 don't know. I think that helps people really understand that 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.560 you can have these experiences, become an expert in why 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.840 they are happening, and help other people. It's not like 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.360 every therapist is out there on some throne thinking they're 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.120 better than everyone. It's really not like that. It's usually 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.440 people are called to something because they've experienced it themselves. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.720 So I don't know. If this episode convinces anyone to 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:08.720 try therapy, then I've I've done my job here. But 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.200 a little more on my guest today now. By the way, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.000 this podcast does very well in the UK. I'm getting 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.960 a lot of good numbers from Britain, so thank you everybody. 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.120 And that is where my guest today is from. He 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.880 is in Manchester and his name is Joshua Flescher. You 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:33.000 can find him on social media as Anxiety Josh. I 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.800 found him on Instagram. He's a psychotherapist who specializes in 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:41.080 working with anxiety and panic, and he has three popular 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.440 best selling books on that subject and he's the host 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.439 of the Panic Pod podcast. His latest book is called 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.400 Untangle Your Anxiety and you can get it now. I 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.760 will put all the links in the show notes, um 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.439 and again, if you go to the Panic Room dot 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.960 co dot uk you can read more about Josh and 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.720 his work. His other books are called Anxiety Practical About 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:15.200 Panic and another book called Anxiety Panicking About Panic and again. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:20.320 His podcast is called the Panic pot. So here's my 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:28.920 chat with Josh. Tell me about your experience with anxiety. 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.560 What is your past experience of anxiety and what is 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:36.680 your experience today with it? Oh? Yeah, I've experienced a 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.080 lot of anxiety. I know, it's it's a buzzword. It's 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.280 sorry vague, isn't it. We all love anxiety, we all 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:46.520 have trauma, we all love these things. I've experienced anxiety 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.840 to the point of clinical diagnosis. So I've experienced panic 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:58.080 disorder Agoraphobia's see how I changed the word agrophobia to agoraphobia. 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.520 They're being considerate of my trans Atlantic was going to say, 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.520 did you say that in American just for me? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely? 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.960 O c D intrusive thoughts. Basically, if we were playing 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:16.559 anxiety diagnosis bingo, I would be winning. Um. Experienced all 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.760 the wonderful sensations that come with it, the thoughts or 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.840 the scary what ifs, the catastrophes, the the sensations, and 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:30.640 physical symptoms like the realization, dissociation, panic, feeling sick, wanted 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.920 to throw up, perspiration, muscle tension, you name it, at 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:40.040 the Sanderson um and and just yeah, and just the feelings, doom, dread, 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.360 all that stuff. Yeah, I suffered really badly with it. 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.120 I did a lot of years of trial and error 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.839 to overcome it. Finally found the right way to do it, 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.800 and dedicated my life to helping others and educating other 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.080 people about it as well. And that's why I became 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.160 a psychotherapist. And and I went down that way. And 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.400 what would you say, is the right way for you 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.240 at least to handle anxiety? My way? I'm joking. So 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.040 the right way with with anxiety is us learning about 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.520 its psycho education. If you don't know what's happening, then 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.840 you have no chance. You don't know what you're working with. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.000 The first thing I do when I talk about anxiety 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.680 is split it into two. You've got conventional anxiety, which 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.400 is I'm worried about my job, I'm worried about my relationship, 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.920 I'm worried about money, I'm worried about insert something external. 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.640 And then the other side of it is internal ruminative 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.320 disordered anxiety. And this is the stuff that people don't 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:43.440 really talk about. So this is panic attacks, obsessing um 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.600 intrusive thoughts about stuff you don't like, and it wears 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:52.000 you out, worrying about symptoms, panicking about panic, fearing fear, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.120 avoiding things because you're afraid of fear, misinterpreting fear, and 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:01.600 believing what if thoughts. That's the inwards disordered ant. So immediately, 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.760 for me, it was nice to hear that that kind 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.839 of anxiety existed, because when I was freaking out having 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:10.920 a panic attack of the panic attack, thinking I was 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.839 losing my mind, just that distinction was super helpful, like, oh, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.719 other people struggle from this, and then that started the 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.280 journey to to recovery. Yeah, I love that you. Um 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.640 you said internalized ruminative anxiety. And I think there's two 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.439 sides of the anxiety fence, right there are people on 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.160 one side who say, oh, I don't have anxiety. They 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.440 think it's something really big and scary, they might have 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.760 the more conventional anxiety, you know, I'm just stressed about 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.920 my job, and then the other people on the other 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.839 side of the fence that have the deeper anxiety, they 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.880 think they're insane. And they look at the people with 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.120 conventional anxiety that are just worried about their job, and 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.760 they say, no, no, no, that's anxiety. It's just everyday stuff. 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.240 I'm crazy, And so I think that's just something I've 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.720 made up. But just from talking to people, I often 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.319 talk to people who are trying to diagnose themselves or 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.240 figure out how they feel, and I often hear that 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.720 one thing is anxiety and one thing isn't, and it's 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:15.520 really both, but it's just a different spectrum, right absolutely. Um, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:21.240 I get I annoy a lot of therapists. Um because 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.920 I like the word disorder. Now I've been burned at 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.440 the stake for propagating the medicalization of mental health because 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.880 I like the word disorder. But no, I love it 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.200 but for its literal meaning, because all of that what 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:40.600 you described is anxiety. No, everyone's anxiety is subjective to them. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:45.040 We don't negate people suffering. But for me, it's the 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:50.120 distinction between is its cyclical or is it temporary now? 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:56.240 For people who kind of worry about the conventional stuff 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.000 that is anxiety, you get worriors. You know, I've got 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.120 my cousins are warriors that are constantly worrying about what 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:03.840 if that happens, what if a boss doesn't like me, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.840 what if that happens, what if I'm ill? What if 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.600 I do this? Just constant external different what if changing 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.160 it up a little bit? And then you've got the 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.760 disorder anxiety. So this is our anxious response, but it's 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.360 just kicking off and we don't want it to. We 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:23.920 all get anxiety before dates and job interviews and medical 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.200 appointments and things like that. That's normal, that's okay. It's 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.120 still anxiety. But it's like we're not questioning why we're anxious. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.120 But the disordered anxieties when we're like, wake up with 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.320 doom and we're like why am I anxious? I'm lying 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.080 in bed, like, you know, like why why? Why is 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.960 the world suddenly look weird? Why do I feel like 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.880 I'm in the matrix? Why is everything so strange? Why 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.320 am I think weird thoughts when I'm out with my friends? 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.600 That's the internal disordered anxiety. It's still anxiety. It's the 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:57.440 same response, but it's our interpretation of it is different, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.480 and the only thing that separates it is fear of 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.120 fear before a job interview. We're not worried about why 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.560 we're worried. We understand it before the first date. We 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.800 know why we're anxious. It makes sense. But when it 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.240 doesn't make sense, that's when you start to get on 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:19.840 the rumination roller coaster and struggle with disordered anxiety. We'll 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.600 continue the interview on the flip side of a quick 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:31.160 message from our sponsors. Let me ask you this. So 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.960 somebody wakes up there in bed, why am I feeling weird? 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.080 They're worried about why they feel anxiety, even if they 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.040 don't call it anxiety. So now we're getting into the 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.520 rum nation. So there is a difference, obviously, between a 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.560 slight curiosity. Oh, I feel a little weird, but I 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.280 know nothing's wrong because I'm in bed. Huh. Let me 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.640 dot dot dot investigate that. We'll get to that in 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.360 a minute. And then there's I feel weird, blah blah, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.440 fill in the blank. I must be dying, the world 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.960 must be ending, I'm insane, there's a ghost in my bedroom, 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.040 and whatever So there is a difference because, like you said, okay, 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.600 if you don't find out what is going on, you 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:17.880 cannot get to solving your anxiety symptoms. But now I 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.800 like to drill down into the nitty gritty because I 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.680 feel like I don't know it interests me, so I 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.160 know it interests someone out there. So now we've got 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.080 this person laying in bed, what is the difference between 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.520 that kind of curious mind that knows, you know what, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.200 I think, I need to talk to someone about this 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.600 because I feel weird and I shouldn't and the rumin nation. 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.800 Can you show us or tell us what each one is, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.040 because I think a lot of people think, well, I'm ruminating. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.120 I'm They wouldn't call it ruminating, they think, no, I'm 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.800 trying to figure it out, you know, trying to fix it, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.320 trying to find the miracle. Thought, great question, and there's 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.920 a simple answer. People who ruminate believe that worrying will 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.160 alleviate the worry. They don't feel that they can tolerate 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.960 the feeling of uncertainty. The person with intrigue can tolerate 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.680 the uncertainty. The person who fear believes they can't tolerate 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.200 it will try to ruminate as a compulsion. And you're right, 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.040 some people wake up and feel like ship. I feel 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.600 like ship. Well, I know it's okay to feel like 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.080 sear in the morning. I'll be all right in an hour. Sorry, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:29.040 you're totally allowed to swear. Yes, I encourage it. And 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.320 then yeah, intrigue. You know, you get these these yogis 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.159 and these mindfulness people there like treat the anxiety like 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.800 invited intrigue. It's like na like, if you've got a 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.800 disordered anxiety, ignore it, man, don't intrigue it, don't invite 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.280 it in just be like, I've got to eradicate, going 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.600 to raise the secondary fear here. So if you're a ruminator, 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.040 get out of bed, put your shoes on, and stop ruminating. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.920 If you don't fear fear and you just the oh 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.560 I must have slept bad last night, Oh okay, well 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.240 carry on my day. Then then you know needs to 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.600 do anything, it's fine. But if you're in the midst 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.440 of that cycle, you know, one questions all the time 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.320 morning anxiety. Why do I feel doom when I wake up? Well, 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.480 we all feel courters al in the morning. That's what 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.399 wakes us up. When you wake up the body goes boom. 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:17.760 I have a lot of courters al which is a 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:23.600 fair chemical actually, But because we're misinterpreting anxiety or we're 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.200 in the if we're highly anxious, we start to then 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.639 see that doom feeling as an invitation to ruminate, to 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.000 listen to every thought the brain throws at us. I mean, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.160 we get seven and a half to eight thousand different 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.280 thoughts a day, and yet we why are we picking 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:46.480 the same five crap thoughts every time? When what if 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.119 that happens? When if that happens? Here? For years even 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.200 for some people. And so it's about, yes, stepping off 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.480 the rumination roller coaster for hamster wheel of rumination, keep 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.639 your attention external. And that's what a lot of what 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.119 I do what doesn't help those sensationalized narratives, particularly when 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.440 you see therapy on TV and stuff like that, where 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.120 it's about getting to the root cause you know, like 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.120 I call it inception thinking. You know, if I sit 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.640 here and go through my memories and realize, oh, yeah, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.600 it's because my dad didn't come to my soccer game. 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.560 That's why I haven't panicked. That that doesn't exist an 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:24.000 anxiety disorders, that it's just the fear and immerse misinterpretation. Oh, 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.800 I went off on a little rant, and so I 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.400 love it. I wrote down three things that I want 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:34.560 to go back to. One one of them is making 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.359 fun of the kind of yogi hey man, just invite 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.679 the thoughts in now. First of all, that is the 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.199 most British am I get. Am I do we say British? 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.920 Do we say UK? Thing I've ever heard British? Yes, 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.479 you're making fun. I'm from Boston originally, and then my 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.800 family is from Manchester, UK. Um that I could. I 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.359 was going to ask if you're in Manchester? And I 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.360 know this information is available on my but I really 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.359 didn't know what part you were in to anyone. To 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.399 anyone listening at home, Manchester's like London but not ship. 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:09.600 It's really good. Yeah. Well, and to anyone listening that's 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.920 in Boston, Manchester is like Lowell is So anyway, my my, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:15.760 you know, I don't know any of these people, but 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.840 my great great grandfather was in Manchester, moved to Boston whatever. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.639 So I feel this kinship with my British people because 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.760 Boston we're all just we have a low tolerance for bullshit, 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.760 and I think we can sniff it out pretty well. Um, 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.880 I think it's what might stop a lot of our 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.640 kinds of people from getting help in the first place, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.959 because we're so against bullshit that we don't want anyone 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.440 to get into our minds, you know. But going back 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.359 to these these people that, hey man, just invite the thoughts, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:53.640 I was recently proselytizing that kind of thing, even at 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.600 the beginning of this UH podcast. When I first started it, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:20:59.240 I was saying that, you know, let's have fun with 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.160 our anxiety. At this point, I think of my anxiety 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.119 as this annoying friend sits in the front seat of 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:05.680 my car and they weigh in on things I should 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:07.399 think about, but I just ignore them. Or you know, 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.919 they're the idiot at work that pitches ideas and you 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:11.439 go ah ha and you never do it. But you 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.240 have to keep them there because they're the boss's son, 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.160 you know. And I think that's all cute and fine. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.040 I'm not putting myself down, but I have to be 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.640 very careful because I got there decades after working on myself. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.919 You can't tell someone that hasn't started working yet to 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.720 just take their ruminations that are that are as you said, 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.400 pretty you know disordered and think of them as a friend. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:38.800 I mean we're not there yet, right. The anthropomorphosification as 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:44.080 a word, uh, anthropomorphisizing your anxiety like this those books 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:49.399 out there like where they turn it into animals or 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.359 friends or whatever. And you know, you know what anxiety 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.760 is there. It's there to save your life. Um. And 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.000 that's why I love psycho education and this is really important. UM. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.880 As we know, anxiety is a threat response. I love 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.160 calling it a threat response because it will engage when 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.240 there's any threat, not just lines and tigers wanting to 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.679 rip you throw out, but threat to social stance, threat 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.880 to esteem, threat to relationship, threat to all those things. 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.320 That's what anxiety is there for. And it's great. But 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.080 because it's a it's a mechanism and our brain that 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:27.919 has not evolved since our ancestors. It doesn't understand the 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:33.120 accumulation of subjective stress. So it doesn't understand why you're 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.440 stressed out about social media, doesn't understand why your qualterly 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:41.280 report isn't in on time, It doesn't understand pandemics. It 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.120 doesn't understand all these things, and so all it does 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:46.720 is that it notices that you're getting super stressed. And 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.919 I always use the analogy of the jug we all have. 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.040 You know, it's a metaphor. Look at me, I'm super clever. 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.160 I'm using metaphor. It we all have a jug and 0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:00.240 all our stress goes into it, and and that's mine. 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.199 But we all have a capacity for stress. And this 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.040 is why people develop anxiety disorders at times of their 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.639 life where things are super stressful, not just negative stress, 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.280 either positive stress. Or just got married, or just moved house, 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:17.359 we just got a promotion, I've just had a kid, 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:21.439 or just whatever stress we'll add to that job. And 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:25.800 when it overflows, that's when that mechanism in your brain 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.960 doesn't understand that. It's so just to be sure, it's 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.560 trying to save you. It's going you know what. It's 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:39.160 better to be wrong and alive than lack of daisical 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:42.480 and dead. Just like for our ancestors, you know, our 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.919 ancestors walking through the jungle, walking across the desert. We 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:47.800 all have. I call it the inner mere cat. It's 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.119 the same mechanism that a mere cat has. It's that 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:52.840 mare cats survived because they can't fight lines, but they 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:54.959 can see them coming from a mile away, so they 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.960 can plan around it, and that's how humans became the 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:01.399 dominant species. You can't fight or even run away from lines. 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.840 People talk about fight or flight, it's like, well, yeah, 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.640