Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
Speaker 1: am your host, Jen Kirkman. Thank you all again for
Speaker 1: listening and for the kind things that you were saying
Speaker 1: about the podcast and how much it's helping you. And
Speaker 1: if you want to send me an email that you
Speaker 1: want me to read on air, please send to Anxiety
Speaker 1: Bites weekly at gmail dot com. Now again, somebody goes
Speaker 1: through these for me, so and he hate mail or
Speaker 1: marriage proposals, I won't see them, but if it's something
Speaker 1: that's appropriate for the show, happy to read on air. UM.
Speaker 1: There have been some requests for certain kinds of topics
Speaker 1: and I would love to accommodate all of that. The
Speaker 1: main issue is that we recorded a lot of these
Speaker 1: episodes in advance, UM, and then I had to move
Speaker 1: to New York for a job and I'm currently working
Speaker 1: full time and so UM, I have a very small
Speaker 1: window where I can record episodes, and not every guest
Speaker 1: is available at this one hour that I have available
Speaker 1: every week, So you know, trying my best, trying to
Speaker 1: get as many different guests on as I can in
Speaker 1: all different areas, but um. Anyway, today's guest, it's you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I always have a big, like one
Speaker 1: topic that really interests me in a certain guest, and
Speaker 1: then I see where the interview goes from there. And
Speaker 1: I always start with just something else and then I
Speaker 1: go down the rabbit hole of what I'm talking about
Speaker 1: with the guests, which I love. I mean, my favorite
Speaker 1: part of doing this podcast is is not the research
Speaker 1: and guests for the show or updating my social media,
Speaker 1: it is actually talking to people about anxiety. I just
Speaker 1: sort of lose myself and I enjoy doing it so much.
Speaker 1: But the big reason that I wanted to have Joshua
Speaker 1: Fletcher a k A Anxiety josh is UM. He's known
Speaker 1: on Instagram. That's how I first knew of him. He
Speaker 1: talks about something that I rarely to never see any
Speaker 1: other experts in anxiety, and josh is a psychotherapist talk
Speaker 1: about which is as he calls it, the three d S,
Speaker 1: which is de realization, depersonalization, and dissociation. And I have
Speaker 1: experienced feelings of depersonalization and de realization. I think it's
Speaker 1: mostly de realization in an anxiety attack or a panic attack.
Speaker 1: Rather sorry because as we know there's really no such
Speaker 1: thing as an anxiety attack. There's anxiety and then panic attacks.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting about this is it's one of my
Speaker 1: biggest symptoms, and it was, of course one of the
Speaker 1: scariest ones that I had before I had any words
Speaker 1: for any of this. And it's the hardest one to
Speaker 1: do scribe because how do you describe feeling like you're
Speaker 1: not really there. It doesn't feel like fainting, although I've
Speaker 1: never fainted, but I imagine from what I've seen in
Speaker 1: the movies that fainting happens rather quickly, and it's almost
Speaker 1: like you don't know what happened, but de realization, it
Speaker 1: just seems to go on and on, and it it
Speaker 1: feels like the only way I can describe it. There's
Speaker 1: a scene in the movies sixteen Candles, which by the way,
Speaker 1: does not hold up. I haven't seen it recently, but
Speaker 1: just even thinking about it, I'm like, oh lord, I
Speaker 1: didn't even really love it that much in the eighties,
Speaker 1: to be honest. But one of the characters, I forget
Speaker 1: everybody's name, but the the dorky one, the younger one
Speaker 1: that wanted to hang out with the cool kids. He
Speaker 1: ends up at this party and in the morning he
Speaker 1: has trapped under a glass coffee table and he's banging
Speaker 1: on it, and once the debris is cleared off the
Speaker 1: coffee table, we can see him under there. That's to
Speaker 1: me what feeling of de realization feel like. Like you're
Speaker 1: kind of trapped. People can see you, but you feel
Speaker 1: like you're behind a glass, like you're not really there.
Speaker 1: And it's not an emotional feeling. I'm not giving a
Speaker 1: metaphor for Oh, I feel disconnected from people. No, I
Speaker 1: feel disconnected from myself in those moments. It feels almost
Speaker 1: like you might float away or turn invisible or something.
Speaker 1: I wish it felt as concrete as oh, I think
Speaker 1: I'm about to faint, But it's it's different. And I
Speaker 1: actually had the weirdest phobia as a kid. And as
Speaker 1: I say this out loud, I'm sure a ton of
Speaker 1: you will say, well, I've actually had that too. Because
Speaker 1: my theory is if I thought it with my human
Speaker 1: brain than other human brains have thought it, I couldn't
Speaker 1: be that unique. But I had a fear of losing gravity,
Speaker 1: very specifically that I would lose gravity. What does that mean, Well,
Speaker 1: we walk around all day, not flying, around the air
Speaker 1: because of gravity keeping us tied to the Earth. Very
Speaker 1: grateful for that, I had a fear that suddenly, one
Speaker 1: day gravity would stop affecting me. Now, I don't know,
Speaker 1: you might diagnose me as a narcissist just hearing that.
Speaker 1: But the reason I think I had that bizarre phobia
Speaker 1: it would only come up during feelings of de realization,
Speaker 1: right before I would go into a massive panic attack.
Speaker 1: And then that was the kind of thought loop that
Speaker 1: my brain would think as I was panicking, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: what if you lose gravity? And then what, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to fly up into the atmosphere, you know,
Speaker 1: which I think would be pretty terrifying to leave Earth's
Speaker 1: atmosphere without the accoutrements of a rocket ship and all
Speaker 1: of the helmets and things that you would need to
Speaker 1: you know, breathe. And so that's the best I can
Speaker 1: explain de realization. The other way I could explain it,
Speaker 1: maybe is if you've ever um fallen to sleep and
Speaker 1: then you kind of jump and wake up, and you're
Speaker 1: not fully awake, but you're not asleep anymore, but you're
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle. And I don't mean sleep Perlyssis,
Speaker 1: it's it's just that weird feeling of it's sort of
Speaker 1: like that, but again, it usually happens for no reason.
Speaker 1: At least in those weird sleep moments, I can say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm somewhere between sleep and waking. Just try to go
Speaker 1: back to sleep. So so I talked to my guest today, Josh,
Speaker 1: about that, because I've never seen anyone really talk about it,
Speaker 1: and he explains it really well. He um has posted
Speaker 1: about it a lot on his Instagram, and we end
Speaker 1: up talking about this subway that I take sometimes that
Speaker 1: gives me feelings of de realization and I had been
Speaker 1: avoiding it lately. So at the end of this episode
Speaker 1: you'll here my update on that. But anyway, so let's
Speaker 1: just get right into the episode. But of course I
Speaker 1: get to the de realization like closer to the end
Speaker 1: of the episode. But um, that's okay. It was a
Speaker 1: great chat, and I love to talk to people who
Speaker 1: do this for a living about their own experiences with
Speaker 1: anxiety and and kind of what the world of being
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist is like, in the sense that there are
Speaker 1: a lot of different methods of doing things, and different
Speaker 1: methods work at different times for different people knowing what
Speaker 1: to do when for what person. And uh, I think
Speaker 1: it's also very interesting when your psychotherapist has had their
Speaker 1: own experiences with anxieties. Josh talks honestly about his I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that helps people really understand that
Speaker 1: you can have these experiences, become an expert in why
Speaker 1: they are happening, and help other people. It's not like
Speaker 1: every therapist is out there on some throne thinking they're
Speaker 1: better than everyone. It's really not like that. It's usually
Speaker 1: people are called to something because they've experienced it themselves.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. If this episode convinces anyone to
Speaker 1: try therapy, then I've I've done my job here. But
Speaker 1: a little more on my guest today now. By the way,
Speaker 1: this podcast does very well in the UK. I'm getting
Speaker 1: a lot of good numbers from Britain, so thank you everybody.
Speaker 1: And that is where my guest today is from. He
Speaker 1: is in Manchester and his name is Joshua Flescher. You
Speaker 1: can find him on social media as Anxiety Josh. I
Speaker 1: found him on Instagram. He's a psychotherapist who specializes in
Speaker 1: working with anxiety and panic, and he has three popular
Speaker 1: best selling books on that subject and he's the host
Speaker 1: of the Panic Pod podcast. His latest book is called
Speaker 1: Untangle Your Anxiety and you can get it now. I
Speaker 1: will put all the links in the show notes, um
Speaker 1: and again, if you go to the Panic Room dot
Speaker 1: co dot uk you can read more about Josh and
Speaker 1: his work. His other books are called Anxiety Practical About
Speaker 1: Panic and another book called Anxiety Panicking About Panic and again.
Speaker 1: His podcast is called the Panic pot. So here's my
Speaker 1: chat with Josh. Tell me about your experience with anxiety.
Speaker 1: What is your past experience of anxiety and what is
Speaker 1: your experience today with it? Oh? Yeah, I've experienced a
Speaker 1: lot of anxiety. I know, it's it's a buzzword. It's
Speaker 1: sorry vague, isn't it. We all love anxiety, we all
Speaker 1: have trauma, we all love these things. I've experienced anxiety
Speaker 1: to the point of clinical diagnosis. So I've experienced panic
Speaker 1: disorder Agoraphobia's see how I changed the word agrophobia to agoraphobia.
Speaker 1: They're being considerate of my trans Atlantic was going to say,
Speaker 1: did you say that in American just for me? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely?
Speaker 1: O c D intrusive thoughts. Basically, if we were playing
Speaker 1: anxiety diagnosis bingo, I would be winning. Um. Experienced all
Speaker 1: the wonderful sensations that come with it, the thoughts or
Speaker 1: the scary what ifs, the catastrophes, the the sensations, and
Speaker 1: physical symptoms like the realization, dissociation, panic, feeling sick, wanted
Speaker 1: to throw up, perspiration, muscle tension, you name it, at
Speaker 1: the Sanderson um and and just yeah, and just the feelings, doom, dread,
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Yeah, I suffered really badly with it.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of years of trial and error
Speaker 1: to overcome it. Finally found the right way to do it,
Speaker 1: and dedicated my life to helping others and educating other
Speaker 1: people about it as well. And that's why I became
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist. And and I went down that way. And
Speaker 1: what would you say, is the right way for you
Speaker 1: at least to handle anxiety? My way? I'm joking. So
Speaker 1: the right way with with anxiety is us learning about
Speaker 1: its psycho education. If you don't know what's happening, then
Speaker 1: you have no chance. You don't know what you're working with.
Speaker 1: The first thing I do when I talk about anxiety
Speaker 1: is split it into two. You've got conventional anxiety, which
Speaker 1: is I'm worried about my job, I'm worried about my relationship,
Speaker 1: I'm worried about money, I'm worried about insert something external.
Speaker 1: And then the other side of it is internal ruminative
Speaker 1: disordered anxiety. And this is the stuff that people don't
Speaker 1: really talk about. So this is panic attacks, obsessing um
Speaker 1: intrusive thoughts about stuff you don't like, and it wears
Speaker 1: you out, worrying about symptoms, panicking about panic, fearing fear,
Speaker 1: avoiding things because you're afraid of fear, misinterpreting fear, and
Speaker 1: believing what if thoughts. That's the inwards disordered ant. So immediately,
Speaker 1: for me, it was nice to hear that that kind
Speaker 1: of anxiety existed, because when I was freaking out having
Speaker 1: a panic attack of the panic attack, thinking I was
Speaker 1: losing my mind, just that distinction was super helpful, like, oh,
Speaker 1: other people struggle from this, and then that started the
Speaker 1: journey to to recovery. Yeah, I love that you. Um
Speaker 1: you said internalized ruminative anxiety. And I think there's two
Speaker 1: sides of the anxiety fence, right there are people on
Speaker 1: one side who say, oh, I don't have anxiety. They
Speaker 1: think it's something really big and scary, they might have
Speaker 1: the more conventional anxiety, you know, I'm just stressed about
Speaker 1: my job, and then the other people on the other
Speaker 1: side of the fence that have the deeper anxiety, they
Speaker 1: think they're insane. And they look at the people with
Speaker 1: conventional anxiety that are just worried about their job, and
Speaker 1: they say, no, no, no, that's anxiety. It's just everyday stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm crazy, And so I think that's just something I've
Speaker 1: made up. But just from talking to people, I often
Speaker 1: talk to people who are trying to diagnose themselves or
Speaker 1: figure out how they feel, and I often hear that
Speaker 1: one thing is anxiety and one thing isn't, and it's
Speaker 1: really both, but it's just a different spectrum, right absolutely. Um,
Speaker 1: I get I annoy a lot of therapists. Um because
Speaker 1: I like the word disorder. Now I've been burned at
Speaker 1: the stake for propagating the medicalization of mental health because
Speaker 1: I like the word disorder. But no, I love it
Speaker 1: but for its literal meaning, because all of that what
Speaker 1: you described is anxiety. No, everyone's anxiety is subjective to them.
Speaker 1: We don't negate people suffering. But for me, it's the
Speaker 1: distinction between is its cyclical or is it temporary now?
Speaker 1: For people who kind of worry about the conventional stuff
Speaker 1: that is anxiety, you get worriors. You know, I've got
Speaker 1: my cousins are warriors that are constantly worrying about what
Speaker 1: if that happens, what if a boss doesn't like me,
Speaker 1: what if that happens, what if I'm ill? What if
Speaker 1: I do this? Just constant external different what if changing
Speaker 1: it up a little bit? And then you've got the
Speaker 1: disorder anxiety. So this is our anxious response, but it's
Speaker 1: just kicking off and we don't want it to. We
Speaker 1: all get anxiety before dates and job interviews and medical
Speaker 1: appointments and things like that. That's normal, that's okay. It's
Speaker 1: still anxiety. But it's like we're not questioning why we're anxious.
Speaker 1: But the disordered anxieties when we're like, wake up with
Speaker 1: doom and we're like why am I anxious? I'm lying
Speaker 1: in bed, like, you know, like why why? Why is
Speaker 1: the world suddenly look weird? Why do I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm in the matrix? Why is everything so strange? Why
Speaker 1: am I think weird thoughts when I'm out with my friends?
Speaker 1: That's the internal disordered anxiety. It's still anxiety. It's the
Speaker 1: same response, but it's our interpretation of it is different,
Speaker 1: and the only thing that separates it is fear of
Speaker 1: fear before a job interview. We're not worried about why
Speaker 1: we're worried. We understand it before the first date. We
Speaker 1: know why we're anxious. It makes sense. But when it
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, that's when you start to get on
Speaker 1: the rumination roller coaster and struggle with disordered anxiety. We'll
Speaker 1: continue the interview on the flip side of a quick
Speaker 1: message from our sponsors. Let me ask you this. So
Speaker 1: somebody wakes up there in bed, why am I feeling weird?
Speaker 1: They're worried about why they feel anxiety, even if they
Speaker 1: don't call it anxiety. So now we're getting into the
Speaker 1: rum nation. So there is a difference, obviously, between a
Speaker 1: slight curiosity. Oh, I feel a little weird, but I
Speaker 1: know nothing's wrong because I'm in bed. Huh. Let me
Speaker 1: dot dot dot investigate that. We'll get to that in
Speaker 1: a minute. And then there's I feel weird, blah blah,
Speaker 1: fill in the blank. I must be dying, the world
Speaker 1: must be ending, I'm insane, there's a ghost in my bedroom,
Speaker 1: and whatever So there is a difference because, like you said, okay,
Speaker 1: if you don't find out what is going on, you
Speaker 1: cannot get to solving your anxiety symptoms. But now I
Speaker 1: like to drill down into the nitty gritty because I
Speaker 1: feel like I don't know it interests me, so I
Speaker 1: know it interests someone out there. So now we've got
Speaker 1: this person laying in bed, what is the difference between
Speaker 1: that kind of curious mind that knows, you know what,
Speaker 1: I think, I need to talk to someone about this
Speaker 1: because I feel weird and I shouldn't and the rumin nation.
Speaker 1: Can you show us or tell us what each one is,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people think, well, I'm ruminating.
Speaker 1: I'm They wouldn't call it ruminating, they think, no, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to figure it out, you know, trying to fix it,
Speaker 1: trying to find the miracle. Thought, great question, and there's
Speaker 1: a simple answer. People who ruminate believe that worrying will
Speaker 1: alleviate the worry. They don't feel that they can tolerate
Speaker 1: the feeling of uncertainty. The person with intrigue can tolerate
Speaker 1: the uncertainty. The person who fear believes they can't tolerate
Speaker 1: it will try to ruminate as a compulsion. And you're right,
Speaker 1: some people wake up and feel like ship. I feel
Speaker 1: like ship. Well, I know it's okay to feel like
Speaker 1: sear in the morning. I'll be all right in an hour. Sorry,
Speaker 1: you're totally allowed to swear. Yes, I encourage it. And
Speaker 1: then yeah, intrigue. You know, you get these these yogis
Speaker 1: and these mindfulness people there like treat the anxiety like
Speaker 1: invited intrigue. It's like na like, if you've got a
Speaker 1: disordered anxiety, ignore it, man, don't intrigue it, don't invite
Speaker 1: it in just be like, I've got to eradicate, going
Speaker 1: to raise the secondary fear here. So if you're a ruminator,
Speaker 1: get out of bed, put your shoes on, and stop ruminating.
Speaker 1: If you don't fear fear and you just the oh
Speaker 1: I must have slept bad last night, Oh okay, well
Speaker 1: carry on my day. Then then you know needs to
Speaker 1: do anything, it's fine. But if you're in the midst
Speaker 1: of that cycle, you know, one questions all the time
Speaker 1: morning anxiety. Why do I feel doom when I wake up? Well,
Speaker 1: we all feel courters al in the morning. That's what
Speaker 1: wakes us up. When you wake up the body goes boom.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of courters al which is a
Speaker 1: fair chemical actually, But because we're misinterpreting anxiety or we're
Speaker 1: in the if we're highly anxious, we start to then
Speaker 1: see that doom feeling as an invitation to ruminate, to
Speaker 1: listen to every thought the brain throws at us. I mean,
Speaker 1: we get seven and a half to eight thousand different
Speaker 1: thoughts a day, and yet we why are we picking
Speaker 1: the same five crap thoughts every time? When what if
Speaker 1: that happens? When if that happens? Here? For years even
Speaker 1: for some people. And so it's about, yes, stepping off
Speaker 1: the rumination roller coaster for hamster wheel of rumination, keep
Speaker 1: your attention external. And that's what a lot of what
Speaker 1: I do what doesn't help those sensationalized narratives, particularly when
Speaker 1: you see therapy on TV and stuff like that, where
Speaker 1: it's about getting to the root cause you know, like
Speaker 1: I call it inception thinking. You know, if I sit
Speaker 1: here and go through my memories and realize, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's because my dad didn't come to my soccer game.
Speaker 1: That's why I haven't panicked. That that doesn't exist an
Speaker 1: anxiety disorders, that it's just the fear and immerse misinterpretation. Oh,
Speaker 1: I went off on a little rant, and so I
Speaker 1: love it. I wrote down three things that I want
Speaker 1: to go back to. One one of them is making
Speaker 1: fun of the kind of yogi hey man, just invite
Speaker 1: the thoughts in now. First of all, that is the
Speaker 1: most British am I get. Am I do we say British?
Speaker 1: Do we say UK? Thing I've ever heard British? Yes,
Speaker 1: you're making fun. I'm from Boston originally, and then my
Speaker 1: family is from Manchester, UK. Um that I could. I
Speaker 1: was going to ask if you're in Manchester? And I
Speaker 1: know this information is available on my but I really
Speaker 1: didn't know what part you were in to anyone. To
Speaker 1: anyone listening at home, Manchester's like London but not ship.
Speaker 1: It's really good. Yeah. Well, and to anyone listening that's
Speaker 1: in Boston, Manchester is like Lowell is So anyway, my my,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know any of these people, but
Speaker 1: my great great grandfather was in Manchester, moved to Boston whatever.
Speaker 1: So I feel this kinship with my British people because
Speaker 1: Boston we're all just we have a low tolerance for bullshit,
Speaker 1: and I think we can sniff it out pretty well. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it's what might stop a lot of our
Speaker 1: kinds of people from getting help in the first place,
Speaker 1: because we're so against bullshit that we don't want anyone
Speaker 1: to get into our minds, you know. But going back
Speaker 1: to these these people that, hey man, just invite the thoughts,
Speaker 1: I was recently proselytizing that kind of thing, even at
Speaker 1: the beginning of this UH podcast. When I first started it,
Speaker 1: I was saying that, you know, let's have fun with
Speaker 1: our anxiety. At this point, I think of my anxiety
Speaker 1: as this annoying friend sits in the front seat of
Speaker 1: my car and they weigh in on things I should
Speaker 1: think about, but I just ignore them. Or you know,
Speaker 1: they're the idiot at work that pitches ideas and you
Speaker 1: go ah ha and you never do it. But you
Speaker 1: have to keep them there because they're the boss's son,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's all cute and fine.
Speaker 1: I'm not putting myself down, but I have to be
Speaker 1: very careful because I got there decades after working on myself.
Speaker 1: You can't tell someone that hasn't started working yet to
Speaker 1: just take their ruminations that are that are as you said,
Speaker 1: pretty you know disordered and think of them as a friend.
Speaker 1: I mean we're not there yet, right. The anthropomorphosification as
Speaker 1: a word, uh, anthropomorphisizing your anxiety like this those books
Speaker 1: out there like where they turn it into animals or
Speaker 1: friends or whatever. And you know, you know what anxiety
Speaker 1: is there. It's there to save your life. Um. And
Speaker 1: that's why I love psycho education and this is really important. UM.
Speaker 1: As we know, anxiety is a threat response. I love
Speaker 1: calling it a threat response because it will engage when
Speaker 1: there's any threat, not just lines and tigers wanting to
Speaker 1: rip you throw out, but threat to social stance, threat
Speaker 1: to esteem, threat to relationship, threat to all those things.
Speaker 1: That's what anxiety is there for. And it's great. But
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a mechanism and our brain that
Speaker 1: has not evolved since our ancestors. It doesn't understand the
Speaker 1: accumulation of subjective stress. So it doesn't understand why you're
Speaker 1: stressed out about social media, doesn't understand why your qualterly
Speaker 1: report isn't in on time, It doesn't understand pandemics. It
Speaker 1: doesn't understand all these things, and so all it does
Speaker 1: is that it notices that you're getting super stressed. And
Speaker 1: I always use the analogy of the jug we all have.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a metaphor. Look at me, I'm super clever.
Speaker 1: I'm using metaphor. It we all have a jug and
Speaker 1: all our stress goes into it, and and that's mine.
Speaker 1: But we all have a capacity for stress. And this
Speaker 1: is why people develop anxiety disorders at times of their
Speaker 1: life where things are super stressful, not just negative stress,
Speaker 1: either positive stress. Or just got married, or just moved house,
Speaker 1: we just got a promotion, I've just had a kid,
Speaker 1: or just whatever stress we'll add to that job. And
Speaker 1: when it overflows, that's when that mechanism in your brain
Speaker 1: doesn't understand that. It's so just to be sure, it's
Speaker 1: trying to save you. It's going you know what. It's
Speaker 1: better to be wrong and alive than lack of daisical
Speaker 1: and dead. Just like for our ancestors, you know, our
Speaker 1: ancestors walking through the jungle, walking across the desert. We
Speaker 1: all have. I call it the inner mere cat. It's
Speaker 1: the same mechanism that a mere cat has. It's that
Speaker 1: mare cats survived because they can't fight lines, but they
Speaker 1: can see them coming from a mile away, so they
Speaker 1: can plan around it, and that's how humans became the
Speaker 1: dominant species. You can't fight or even run away from lines.
Speaker 1: People talk about fight or flight, it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but both would suck when you're fighting. Whenever I've been
Speaker 1: in fight or flight, I I often wonder what the
Speaker 1: fight would look like, you know, and you know, I
Speaker 1: guess right now it looks like people punching um flight attendants. No,
Speaker 1: but there's another mechanism of anxiety that isn't taught often,
Speaker 1: and that is a mere cap mode because we became
Speaker 1: the dominant species, the dominant predators, because we can go here, lads,
Speaker 1: have you seen that over there? It's a pride of
Speaker 1: lions sharping experions or sneak sneak up on him and
Speaker 1: we'll we'll have a lion king theme barbecue later. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That mechanism, that anxiety is one of the most powerful
Speaker 1: things that have made the predators of the world. But
Speaker 1: it sucks when you're sat in the office just trying
Speaker 1: to type on a computer. Why the hell is that
Speaker 1: going on right now? There's no shark, there's no shock,
Speaker 1: there's nothing, and so recovery is turning off that threat response.
Speaker 1: But each time you ruminate or do a safety behavior
Speaker 1: or google your symptoms. You're just thanking it. So next
Speaker 1: time it's just going to keep going on and on
Speaker 1: and on. And that's what I'm really passionate about kind
Speaker 1: of discussing and teaching people. I really like the way
Speaker 1: you just framed it, and so thank you. You've you've
Speaker 1: helped me have more fun with it in that it's
Speaker 1: not this, oh no, we haven't evolved past this, and
Speaker 1: you know, we used to do it when we were
Speaker 1: didn't have toilets and had to run from tigers. You know,
Speaker 1: it sounded so like, well, jeez, you know, what's wrong
Speaker 1: with us? Why didn't we evolve? And and you're framing
Speaker 1: it in a way that's like no, no, no, we're
Speaker 1: not supposed to become tigers. We did evolve, but it's
Speaker 1: just that that instinct is still there because it's survival.
Speaker 1: But we are the you know, I mean arguably so
Speaker 1: with the smartest species. But in that sense, we have
Speaker 1: different senses than other species. We can see them coming.
Speaker 1: That's our protection. Like we're all nerds, you know, in
Speaker 1: the animal kingdom, Like we're the smart ones with like
Speaker 1: our pencils and calculators and the jocks are out there,
Speaker 1: you know, throwing things and trying to you know, bite us.
Speaker 1: But we might win because we calculated how long it's
Speaker 1: going to take them to get to us. Yeah, people
Speaker 1: misinterpreted as a dysfunctional part of the brain. Listen, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna as someoney suffered a lot with anxiety. I
Speaker 1: I sympathize and empathize with that belief. What does help
Speaker 1: those realizing and again that word disorder. It's just it's
Speaker 1: just going off when I don't need it to at
Speaker 1: the moment, and it is always possible to get it off.
Speaker 1: A lot a lot of people, I hear a lot
Speaker 1: of things like what's the cure, Like no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you don't cure anxiety. We all have anxiety.
Speaker 1: It's super Again, it's part with the nerds of we
Speaker 1: need it. Honestly, we'd be extinct without it. It's it's there.
Speaker 1: But some people's go fires off more readily than others.
Speaker 1: Um and what you've got, And I always bring people's
Speaker 1: attention back to the stress jug So, first of all,
Speaker 1: a lot of people stress drugs are filled up by
Speaker 1: the fear of fear itself. What if I panic when
Speaker 1: in situations where I don't like it. What if I
Speaker 1: have an intrusive thought around children. What if I freak
Speaker 1: out when I'm driving on the freeway, What if I,
Speaker 1: you know, embarrassed myself in front of my work colleagues. Now,
Speaker 1: the fear of fear and the fear of anxiety itself
Speaker 1: will fill up the jug, and that when people come
Speaker 1: and sit in my practice, that's the first thing that
Speaker 1: we look at. Then we look at, well, what else
Speaker 1: is in the jug? How the hell did you get here?
Speaker 1: And that's when there's a place for exploring narratives. Now
Speaker 1: everyone knows that I'm anyone who knows my work, I'm
Speaker 1: grumpy as hell because everyone there's this misbelief and a
Speaker 1: horrible narrative at the moment in the pop going around
Speaker 1: in the popular sphere about you can overcome all anxiety
Speaker 1: and mental health issues by identifying trauma. It's a popular term.
Speaker 1: It's it's it actually waters down the severity of trauma
Speaker 1: for people who actually experienced PTSD. Um. You know, everything's
Speaker 1: a trauma. You know, I spilt my milk on the side.
Speaker 1: Oh it's traumatic. Oh no, everything's trauma, you know. Oh
Speaker 1: you know, like I heard something the other day. Was
Speaker 1: it my dad sometimes not picking me up at the weekend,
Speaker 1: which he didn't was traumatizing. That's trauma for me. I
Speaker 1: mean it's not, it's just upsetting. It's not traumatizing. You know.
Speaker 1: You know if you left me in the jungle, then yeah,
Speaker 1: that's traumatizing, but you know he didn't. But anyway, yet,
Speaker 1: So what I do is unpick or what's in the jargon,
Speaker 1: and yeah, you will find traumatic events, and you'll find sadness, grief.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe your survivor of abuse, maybe you've learned
Speaker 1: that your esteem is valued on your output rather than
Speaker 1: who you are. Maybe there's just stuff anger in their breakups, divorce, whatever,
Speaker 1: and you slowly pour out the jug. And that's for me.
Speaker 1: How you get on top of anxiety is how I
Speaker 1: got on top of mine. That's how people get on
Speaker 1: top of those And and it's my opinion, which is
Speaker 1: always fact on the issue. That's right, that's the name
Speaker 1: of this episode. My opinion is fat with Joshua flushing,
Speaker 1: that's not my stuff. Anxiety bites will be right back
Speaker 1: after a quick little message from one of our sponsors.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that other people in your field don't like
Speaker 1: that you use the word disorder, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if you need the opinion of a comedian slash podcaster
Speaker 1: on your side. But not until I started using the
Speaker 1: word disordered for myself did I start to go warp
Speaker 1: speed um solving a lot of the symptoms and problems
Speaker 1: of my anxiety at same in the last five years
Speaker 1: I had I adopted saying oh, that's a disordered thought
Speaker 1: or that's a disordered response, And why don't people like that?
Speaker 1: I mean, doesn't that anxiety disorder? It's disordered. What's the
Speaker 1: problem this face value? And there's a lot I can
Speaker 1: see why people get angry at it because there are
Speaker 1: there is a lot of medicalization and mental health. I'm
Speaker 1: with those people. But also in this world of partisan politics,
Speaker 1: partisan beliefs, partisan debates, actually I like to just not
Speaker 1: take aside and see things for what things are. Anxiety disorders,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, do exist. I've experienced five of them simultaneously. Um. Also,
Speaker 1: the pro argument of having a disorder is that you
Speaker 1: know what type of anxiety is. Some comes to me
Speaker 1: and says, I've got anxiety disorder. I'm like, Bam, I
Speaker 1: know what you're doing. You wake up, you check how
Speaker 1: you feel. You're probably constantly obsessing how you feel. You
Speaker 1: probably every time you're happy, you're obsessing about how you feel,
Speaker 1: how you can fix that. Probably have panic attacks, anxiety texts.
Speaker 1: You probably ruminate. Yeah, yeah, well, and I know you've
Speaker 1: got anxiety disorder. But if someone comes into my practice
Speaker 1: says I've got anxiety that I need to know why.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're really anxious. Maybe they're in an abusive relationship
Speaker 1: and they don't know it. Maybe they're super stressed and
Speaker 1: actually they've got legit anxiety. Maybe they're being harassed and bullied,
Speaker 1: you know, and that causes anxiety. So it's always cool
Speaker 1: to set up that distinction maybe you know, and and
Speaker 1: so it's always I always like separating things like that. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just think the word disorder has developed
Speaker 1: a bad rap for things like borderline personality disorder. That's
Speaker 1: very contentious issue. I wouldn't necessarily ever use BPD as
Speaker 1: a diagnosis or subscribe to it. Some people really like
Speaker 1: it's their relationship with the label uh, and some people
Speaker 1: categorically reject it or doesn't help. In the world of
Speaker 1: therapy and psychotherapy and psychological intervention, is that there as
Speaker 1: partisan arguments in there, there's there's tribal wars within their therapy.
Speaker 1: So how do you expect you know, like the amount
Speaker 1: of people that have come to me to help with anxiety,
Speaker 1: and they've spent years trying to pinpoint trauma, you know,
Speaker 1: and yes, they've been traumatized. I've been traumatized. God, I've
Speaker 1: been I've been sexually abused, I've gone through death, I've
Speaker 1: had my brother die in my arms, I've been beaten.
Speaker 1: The share of all that, I have been traumatized. I
Speaker 1: know what trauma is. And I said, for anyone wants
Speaker 1: to do that, but I don't really have PTSD. People
Speaker 1: with PTSD relive it, you know, the end of stuff,
Speaker 1: and you've already done an episode on that and stuff
Speaker 1: like it's really quite severe. But yes, it's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing. It's like separating and seeing what it is,
Speaker 1: I think your relationship with the word. But obviously we
Speaker 1: live in a climate now where words taken out proportions,
Speaker 1: semantics are slaughtered. It's scary. It is because people people
Speaker 1: like you said, it's everything is partisan and so a
Speaker 1: lot of times people don't want you to take their
Speaker 1: word away from them, and you're trying to take it
Speaker 1: away from them so you can help. Yes. Absolutely, Well,
Speaker 1: there's I'm writing a book right now. It's it's called Ship.
Speaker 1: Your therapist is thinking. It's got a lot of interest
Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. It's
Speaker 1: not out for like another year, but it's sort of
Speaker 1: the um. There's different modalities in therapy. Now, you've got
Speaker 1: your person centered humanistic which I'm trained in, which is
Speaker 1: applying the core conditions of Carl Rodgers and he said
Speaker 1: that people what people are lacking to heal or to
Speaker 1: grow is empathy, unconditional positive regard. So it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what you've views are that you care for this person,
Speaker 1: and congruence, which is authenticity. If you have all those
Speaker 1: three things in a therapy room, then it's like watering
Speaker 1: a sunflower in your client will grow. I love that stuff.
Speaker 1: I love the stuff like that. Yeah. Then you've got
Speaker 1: the behavior sciences like CBT, which I'm also trained in.
Speaker 1: I also like that too, uh, which I really like.
Speaker 1: And then you've got like deep spiritual stuff like a
Speaker 1: stout therapy, and you've got emergency intervention therapy like DBT
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But obviously the average Joe on
Speaker 1: the street doesn't know all this. You know, and each
Speaker 1: person when they train in their branch of therapy, it's
Speaker 1: like a religion. They internalize it at all. Um, that's
Speaker 1: why you've got to be an integrative therapist. So you
Speaker 1: can look down on all the people that are SOULD therapist.
Speaker 1: You've only trained in one modality. I can use many.
Speaker 1: But actually it's really important because for my anxiety disorder,
Speaker 1: I needed CBT. Definitely. For my O c D, I
Speaker 1: needed E r P. Anyone with O c D E
Speaker 1: r P I love it. It's great. It's hard, but
Speaker 1: it's great. But then naturally, when I lost my brother
Speaker 1: and my father, I needed a space to grieve, and
Speaker 1: CBT sucks for that I really liked. I needed just
Speaker 1: a space to feel compassion, to talk through, to talk
Speaker 1: through my traumatic events, to talk through my sadness, my anger.
Speaker 1: I still have a therapist now, we don't just talk
Speaker 1: about a place to just get stuff off my chest.
Speaker 1: So it's different. Some people go for existential worries. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, it's different. There's a different modality for each
Speaker 1: and unfortunately there's still lies this belief there. Well, I'll
Speaker 1: get a therapist, they'll know everything. Well, no, actually they don't. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like saying, um, you know, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you wanted to study Judaism, saying I'll find a religious leader,
Speaker 1: they'll know everything. It's like, no, you might accidentally grab
Speaker 1: a priest like he's not going to know about you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Good analogy? Yeah, yeah, very definitely.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of this pin the tail on
Speaker 1: the trauma stuff and it does get it does hurt you.
Speaker 1: And if there's people listening now, I'm not saying anything
Speaker 1: offensive to I spent years in therapy, wasting money trying
Speaker 1: to find the answer to my current fears in the
Speaker 1: mystery of my past trauma. You know, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: Some of it was helpful, but most of it wasn't
Speaker 1: because anxiety disorders just exist, you know, and they do
Speaker 1: and once you put in the behavior and teach the
Speaker 1: brain that it's safe. I love formulation. That's what I
Speaker 1: as a therapist. I think I'm really good at formulating
Speaker 1: the problem for people. They come in, we sit down,
Speaker 1: let's see what's going on. Sometimes it's if someone just
Speaker 1: wants a space to talk, that's cool. Sometimes someone has
Speaker 1: clear oh see the interest of thoughts or panic disorder,
Speaker 1: and then we work with that. We're not playing pin
Speaker 1: the tail on the trauma. We deal with the phobia. Um.
Speaker 1: But interestingly the approach is similar anyway. You know, you
Speaker 1: use exposure therapy, which you love. Do you have any
Speaker 1: insights into men and therapy or men and anxiety and
Speaker 1: that they are just I mean, I just you know,
Speaker 1: arm chair over here. I assume that in society men
Speaker 1: are taught don't so many weakness and you know, but
Speaker 1: it can you take me beyond that like little trite
Speaker 1: thing that I know, like, what's the big stuff with
Speaker 1: men and anxiety? Yeah? I mean I call it what
Speaker 1: I call it is emotional conservatism, and it applies to
Speaker 1: men and women or however you identify. And it's more
Speaker 1: sticks with men because there's a reverence of strength being
Speaker 1: measured by how much you are able to not show
Speaker 1: your emotions. And you know what, that comes from a place,
Speaker 1: an important place because during the world wars and throughout history,
Speaker 1: there wasn't time to mess about about it. There wasn't
Speaker 1: time to DM people because you're a friendly because they
Speaker 1: called called called out your trauma. No, there's just picturing
Speaker 1: soldiers in Yeah, exactly and actually, yeah, emotional conservatism in
Speaker 1: the war, particularly in the UK and the Germans flying
Speaker 1: over during the blitz, huddle down, shut up, everyone's got
Speaker 1: it shape at the moment, no one wants to hear
Speaker 1: about your problems. And I get it. I understand that.
Speaker 1: But obviously we're not in a world war anymore. So
Speaker 1: what actually happens, what we need to do and at
Speaker 1: one of the biggest killers of men in particular, well,
Speaker 1: the biggest killer of men in the Western world is suicide.
Speaker 1: Really I didn't know that. Yeah, in the UK, it
Speaker 1: definitely is. And I'm sure because the UK in the
Speaker 1: US that they say, I share a lot of things culturally,
Speaker 1: but yeah, the biggest killer of men in the UK
Speaker 1: is suicide. And that I tell people that, like what like, yeah,
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly more than cancer. More than that, it's suicide. People
Speaker 1: chooseing it. Yeah, because of emotional conservatism, because of this
Speaker 1: reverence where it's weakness to talk about your mental health.
Speaker 1: Now everyone assumes that my mates, so I grew up with,
Speaker 1: I cried last night because my mate text me saying,
Speaker 1: you know, that thing about self belief that we spoke
Speaker 1: about and we very rarely talk about emotional stuff. I said, yes,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I internalized that and it really helped,
Speaker 1: and that is rare for even me and my friendship groups,
Speaker 1: and I go public with mine on my Instagram page.
Speaker 1: I literally recorded myself having a panic attack. I've pinned
Speaker 1: it to my highlights reel just to show you. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't. It's not weakness, you know. I did it
Speaker 1: like a boss as well. If yeah, but you can
Speaker 1: see I'm freaking out of it, like whoa, Like my
Speaker 1: eyes are like wide open, like whoa. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: there because we've got to lose that emotional conservatism. Um,
Speaker 1: you get it all the time. One of the analogies
Speaker 1: I hear that I use all the time is it's
Speaker 1: the result of an introjected belief. And that's another Roggerian term.
Speaker 1: I love Carl Rodgers. I often fantasized about him being
Speaker 1: my dad, even though he's not here anymore, but to
Speaker 1: replace my clear father issues that I've still not addressed.
Speaker 1: And he he said that we introject beliefs through looking
Speaker 1: at experiences from um growing up. So picture you're a kid,
Speaker 1: your grandma's funeral and you miss your grandma. You're never
Speaker 1: going to see her again. And death is one of
Speaker 1: the most mind boggling things to process. It's horrible, I know,
Speaker 1: it's grief is horrible. So you're a kid and you
Speaker 1: you grieve in your grandma she's cremated or whatever, and
Speaker 1: then you're crying because that's natural. You're supposed to be crying,
Speaker 1: is natural for the brain to process things. You should
Speaker 1: you should cry about things. It's okay. And then your
Speaker 1: uncle turns around and he goes, you know what, Josh,
Speaker 1: don't cry, be strong for your grandma. And that is
Speaker 1: the dumbest thing that we still do today. It's the
Speaker 1: dumbest thing ever, because then they all I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go around funerals, particularly British funerals. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna leave my card on people's seats because I'll see
Speaker 1: you in about five ten years. When you're in a
Speaker 1: bar fight, when you're doing drugs, smashing cocaine, trying to
Speaker 1: to suppress the feelings that you think they're supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing. I know I've done it. I had a
Speaker 1: cocaine problem. I had I want to problem because I'll
Speaker 1: believe for so many years that feeling feelings was weakness,
Speaker 1: and so I tried to suppress it. But now because
Speaker 1: I'm smart and got the right help, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh right, actually, yeah that works. Now, Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1: It's all about it's all about normalizing there's another word,
Speaker 1: but it is about normalizing that it is okay to
Speaker 1: have emotions. So I went off on another round. No,
Speaker 1: it's good, I want you. This is what a podcast
Speaker 1: is for. Well, you know, it's great because anyone who
Speaker 1: has actually felt their feelings knows it's a lot harder
Speaker 1: to do that than it is to stuff them down
Speaker 1: with drugs, alcohol, you know, violence, or you know strength. Well,
Speaker 1: I try to model what it's like to have emotions
Speaker 1: and stuff to people, you know. Uh, and and in
Speaker 1: in a way that people can empathize with. Again going
Speaker 1: into the populist fhere now of people like it's almost
Speaker 1: become a fad to share everything in terms of for entertainment,
Speaker 1: as opposed to that real Carl Rodgers, congruent, authentic sharing
Speaker 1: of feelings. That's what we're missing. Had your had Instagram
Speaker 1: existed at all, In your Instagram it existed when I
Speaker 1: was twelve, ma'am, that would have helped me. Uh. You
Speaker 1: posted about this a while ago, and you've done an
Speaker 1: episode on your podcast about it. The three D s
Speaker 1: um de realization, depersonalization, and dissociation. And one of my
Speaker 1: biggest symptoms of anxiety and then one of the precursors
Speaker 1: to a panic attack every time for me as a
Speaker 1: child was de realization and I think depersonalization, and my god,
Speaker 1: I could never explain it. Please tell us all the
Speaker 1: three DS and describe them, because you did. You describe
Speaker 1: it so well. I have no language for them, Like
Speaker 1: it feels like I'm not there. Oh cool, absolutely, Um,
Speaker 1: it's a weird. One of the biggest symptoms of anxiety
Speaker 1: and misunderstood is the feeling of de realization. Uh, it's
Speaker 1: actually a dissociation shouldn't response, and it can both be
Speaker 1: a part of trauma, but most of the time it's
Speaker 1: just an anxious response. Obviously you go to a trauma therapist,
Speaker 1: but oh my god, it's trauma, penitail and trauma. But
Speaker 1: actually know, most people who get super stressed and anxious
Speaker 1: will experience and good de realization or depersonalization. And this
Speaker 1: feels the realization feels like you're not in the room,
Speaker 1: but you are in the room. But it doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like you're in the room. Objects feel both far away
Speaker 1: and close at the same time. It just feels weird.
Speaker 1: And under the same umbrella you've got depersonalization, you can
Speaker 1: have exactly the same time, and that's when you feel
Speaker 1: like you're in your body but you're not. Your hands
Speaker 1: don't feel like yours. You can hear your voice, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like you talking. Um, it feels like
Speaker 1: you don't. If you your body feels discompobulated. One leg
Speaker 1: might feel heavier than the other. What basically, hyper focus
Speaker 1: on not feeling like you, and that can apply to
Speaker 1: things outside as well. The sky is weird. What I
Speaker 1: hear a lot is like I feel like I'm walking
Speaker 1: in a dream but fully awake, or one like I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm in the matrix feels like I'm in
Speaker 1: a simulation, you know. And yeah, that happens when we
Speaker 1: get super stressed, super anxious. It's harmless, it can't hurt you,
Speaker 1: but when it's not explained to you, it's super scary.
Speaker 1: It was the trigger for my anxiety disorder. I was sacked.
Speaker 1: I stood at work one day making a cup of
Speaker 1: tea because I'm British and as I was doing it,
Speaker 1: I dropped the spoon. It made a mildly loud noise
Speaker 1: and just hit with this associate and I looked up
Speaker 1: and I was like, the fuck is going on here?
Speaker 1: And I was like, whoa. It was like looking at
Speaker 1: the same room but through a mirror. What's going on here?
Speaker 1: And then someone walked in and they started talking to me,
Speaker 1: and their faces that like clay, and they sounded like
Speaker 1: kind of far away. Um, don't get don't get fit,
Speaker 1: free it out about. It's normal. But to my experience
Speaker 1: at the time, I was like this before, and I
Speaker 1: thought I'd gone crazy. I thought I'd last my mine.
Speaker 1: I thought, that's it, You've finally done it, Josh, You've
Speaker 1: lost your mind. And that was the biggest trigger for
Speaker 1: my and then I went home to work it out,
Speaker 1: to think about it, to explore roots of trauma. Never
Speaker 1: left the Roote house for a year. Um no, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh I was in a dark place, very dark place.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's That's simply the three D S, dissociation,
Speaker 1: the realization, the personalization. I just call it the realization.
Speaker 1: To keep it simple, I feel to realize I still
Speaker 1: get it now. And then once May. Every few months,
Speaker 1: I'll be walking around and I'll go, Wow, I'm experiencing
Speaker 1: the realization I wonder why, Oh, now I know why.
Speaker 1: Look back at the last week. It was super stressful
Speaker 1: and I've been worrying about worry and that's okay, You've
Speaker 1: got to take away the fear of it. Or didn't
Speaker 1: help was when I took it to therapy and they
Speaker 1: were like, and then I started getting all these false
Speaker 1: memories like well maybe I was abused, I don't remember it,
Speaker 1: And then that was a big one for me. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just was like, please, can I have a repress
Speaker 1: abuse memory because this would just solve everything, And they
Speaker 1: make it seem that way sometimes and it's like it
Speaker 1: was stress. You know, it's just stress and your body
Speaker 1: is doing exactly what it should do. Don't be free.
Speaker 1: It's one of the main questions I get. Millions and
Speaker 1: millions of people experience it. You're okay if you listen
Speaker 1: at home going all that's me, You're okay. You know
Speaker 1: it's all right. Good CBT and anxiety disorder informed CBT
Speaker 1: therapists will help you with that, and they do super
Speaker 1: cool exercises for it, like something called how do I
Speaker 1: American inter receptive exposure, and what is is like you
Speaker 1: can you can actually like bring it on yourself to
Speaker 1: expose yourself to it, to take away the fear. Where
Speaker 1: I tend to get it is UM. If it does happen,
Speaker 1: it will be somewhere like the worst place to ever
Speaker 1: get it, which is like on the subway when it's
Speaker 1: going over a bridge. I'm in New York now, and
Speaker 1: that's the best place to get You think, Oh, if
Speaker 1: you're working with me, we'd be doing that every day.
Speaker 1: It happened a few times last month, and I went,
Speaker 1: I do not have a fear of heights or bridges anymore,
Speaker 1: or something you fear, you fear that, you fear that
Speaker 1: if this is what everyone says, if I suddenly get
Speaker 1: the realization now, I will panic, And if I panicked,
Speaker 1: then I will lose control. And if I lose control,
Speaker 1: it means I can't cope. So I will avoid it.
Speaker 1: I will also simmer in a broth of anticipate patree
Speaker 1: anticipatory anxiety UM to try and avoid it, to pre
Speaker 1: empt it, our wish and compulsively check and superstitiously asked
Speaker 1: for it not to happen. No, get your ass on
Speaker 1: that bridge and go feel derealized because the more you
Speaker 1: do it, you turn off the threat response and it
Speaker 1: goes away. The aim isn't to get rid of the
Speaker 1: realization it's safe. The aim is to turn off the
Speaker 1: threat response in association with the realization. So I was,
Speaker 1: I said the other day, I was sat there feeling realized,
Speaker 1: but with no anxiety. I was like, wow, I just
Speaker 1: feel spaced out. Yeah, I spent a year freaking out.
Speaker 1: The realization and panic are not the same thing. It's
Speaker 1: your interpretation of it. Lecture, a ted talk. No, you
Speaker 1: know that is hopeful, because you know I I'm pretty
Speaker 1: good with what you just said about panic attacks. Like
Speaker 1: I'll do something and I'll think I might have a
Speaker 1: panic attack while I do this. Who cares? You know,
Speaker 1: it's fine, so used to it. Whatever, But de realization
Speaker 1: really still freaks me out. And there is a sub
Speaker 1: I have two subway lines I can take to my apartment.
Speaker 1: One of them takes ten minutes longer, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: go over the bridge. And so next time I'm avoiding.
Speaker 1: I'm avoiding because I don't want to be in de realization.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to have some problems. So
Speaker 1: you're teaching the brain that the realization is scary and dangerous.
Speaker 1: It's not. It is initially. Yeah, I know I did.
Speaker 1: That's why I didn't leave the house for a year.
Speaker 1: What if I step outside and field the realization? And
Speaker 1: I only overcoming when I was willing to be realized.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. It goes away. You'll you'll notice it.
Speaker 1: You'll just go You're like, oh, I feel like me again,
Speaker 1: and I'm not. It wasn't because I avoided the bridge. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and it's yeah, it's one of those
Speaker 1: it's uh. But I'm glad we're talking about that because
Speaker 1: I really like to drill down into you know. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you just say to the common person or even
Speaker 1: a therapist, oh, I have sometimes an anxiety on the
Speaker 1: subway going over the bridge, they're gonna start dealing with
Speaker 1: fear of heights. That's not what I'm talking about. And
Speaker 1: I know that somebody listening is like, I didn't know
Speaker 1: there was a thing. So I'm excited that we got
Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, and do you know here's the stat
Speaker 1: The vastijority of people that fear flying do not fear
Speaker 1: the plane crashing they fear their own fear inside the plane.
Speaker 1: I fear going insane inside the plane. They don't fear
Speaker 1: the plane dropping. That was my experience with my fear
Speaker 1: of flying all my life that I now don't have.
Speaker 1: But I it started with the fear of crashing, and
Speaker 1: then I maybe really truly only had that once and
Speaker 1: the rest the time it was the fear of having
Speaker 1: another panic attack. You know. So you can get on
Speaker 1: a plane and fly across the world, but you can't
Speaker 1: go for a Bridget get over that bridge. If someone
Speaker 1: said to me, right now, get on a flight to Australia,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, oh cool, I get my ear buds
Speaker 1: and I'll read a book. But if someone said get
Speaker 1: on the queue train it's just a one minute over
Speaker 1: that bridge, I go, oh, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: want to. I will be looking. I will be listening
Speaker 1: to your next podcast, and I expect the update that
Speaker 1: you did it. Okay, I'm gonna do it for you
Speaker 1: and I when this episode comes out in my intro,
Speaker 1: I will reveal how it went. And then yeah, actually
Speaker 1: you just you just read like a police You just
Speaker 1: the big news from America. This woman went insane on
Speaker 1: a train and it fell off the bridge because he
Speaker 1: pushed the driver messaging my lawyers, mine needs smell. That
Speaker 1: would actually be amazing if that happened. Now, you can't
Speaker 1: go crazy. Anxiety can't make you go crazy. Everyone thinks
Speaker 1: that the realization means you're gonna go crazy. You're not
Speaker 1: gonna go crazy. We'll be right back. Let's end with
Speaker 1: you have a great social media presence, as I said
Speaker 1: the top of the episode, and we're gonna link to
Speaker 1: everything in the show notes. Now I hear all of this.
Speaker 1: You know, Instagram is so bad for people's mental health,
Speaker 1: and I get it, but I also feel like, for me,
Speaker 1: I'm having a great time with social media in terms
Speaker 1: of how much I still get to learn for free
Speaker 1: about anxiety and other things, and I get to see
Speaker 1: so many people talking about their feelings. And I don't
Speaker 1: know how I would have gotten through the pandemic without
Speaker 1: social media, living by myself. You know, So, is there
Speaker 1: a counter to how terrible social media is? Social media
Speaker 1: isn't terrible? And also again you know me, no, I
Speaker 1: don't blanket statements and parts and stuff. I'm not You're right,
Speaker 1: you're right right. It's like it's like our relationship say,
Speaker 1: it's part of the argument. Isn't all social media's bad,
Speaker 1: it's your relationship with what you are seeing on your
Speaker 1: social media. Now, don't get me wrong. I speak to
Speaker 1: a lot of people who follow anxiety pages and some
Speaker 1: of them suck. They're actually not helpful, it's misinformation, and
Speaker 1: some of them are incredible. So it depends on what
Speaker 1: you're following. Uh. Some of my favorite pages that I
Speaker 1: follow on anxiety are um, obviously mine, but but like
Speaker 1: there's people like Kimberly Quinlan who talks about O C
Speaker 1: D N E RP and she's a genius. There's people
Speaker 1: like The Anxious Truth, who's Drulingslatry lives in New York. Um,
Speaker 1: there's people like um, I look like qualified therapists that
Speaker 1: that there were a lot um of stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And then there's also people that just post about their
Speaker 1: journey and that's okay too. It's okay to have that
Speaker 1: sphere to to kind of normalize, you know, going through stuff.
Speaker 1: You can get into vulnerability pawn, which is the thing
Speaker 1: that at the moment where you know it's just become
Speaker 1: a thing where I'm just gonna keep showing my vulnerability
Speaker 1: because I'm getting likes and clicks. I do think a
Speaker 1: lot of people they almost get like addicted to the
Speaker 1: sympathy and empathy they get by posting their vulnerability and
Speaker 1: and they do in the name of helping others. But
Speaker 1: I don't. It's it starts to eat its tail. It's
Speaker 1: their intention, absolutely love that it eats. It's a tail.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, Like, so when you see my vulnerability that
Speaker 1: I share pinned on my thing, it's actually I turned
Speaker 1: that into psycho education. So I'm saying is, look, I'm
Speaker 1: doing this, but I'm not feeling sorry for myself. You
Speaker 1: can do this too, you know, whereas some people do that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it depends on your on on I find
Speaker 1: with vulnerability powners actually kind of it. It almost dampens
Speaker 1: your hopes, like, well, if this really well known person
Speaker 1: is struggling, what what hope do I have? So yeah,
Speaker 1: it depends to answer the question is who are you following?
Speaker 1: Find someone that you trust and who actually resonates with you,
Speaker 1: and then see who they're following, see what they're doing,
Speaker 1: you know, And that's what I do. Um you know,
Speaker 1: And just because someone has a qualification and a therapist
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're right, that's including me. I sound sanctimonious.
Speaker 1: I sound like a pretentious preak, but I could be
Speaker 1: wrong to you as well. What I say, use your judgment,
Speaker 1: use your intuition, and kind of just just see what
Speaker 1: speaks to you. But as long as it's not part
Speaker 1: of the compulsive cycle where you're constantly seeking reassurance, because
Speaker 1: that doesn't get you anywhere. Yeah, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being on my show. This was such a delight.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for using your platform to talk
Speaker 1: about it and things like that. I really I really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And I'll listen to some more of your episodes.
Speaker 1: I think that's super cool. And you've obviously done your
Speaker 1: research on it as well. You're you're and lived it. Yes,
Speaker 1: And and don't listen to any of the episodes where
Speaker 1: I say things that that I've now changed my mind on,
Speaker 1: like the anxiety is your friend, where I'm like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: anxiety is your friend. Bring it on the yoga mat.
Speaker 1: Just just accept Oh god, I say that a lot.
Speaker 1: To just accept your anxiety. Yeah, accept Like I feel
Speaker 1: like I've got a gun to my head and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna ship myself. Yeah, okay, I'll accept that. Oh, man,
Speaker 1: I'm still gonna say I'm still going to say it
Speaker 1: because I'm a hippie at heart, and I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed my chat with Joshua Fletcher anxiety josh and oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just cracking up about how he immediately made fun
Speaker 1: of people say, be friends with your anxiety. That's all
Speaker 1: I do on this podcasts. But I'm still gonna say it.
Speaker 1: But I'm going to be a little more mindful now
Speaker 1: that that's not always the first thing that we that
Speaker 1: we can do about our anxiety. For me, it was
Speaker 1: really like the million thing I did about my anxiety.
Speaker 1: And I always think sometimes when I learned something or
Speaker 1: adopt a behavior as one of the like latest tools
Speaker 1: in my tool kid, I guess I always have this
Speaker 1: tendency to think, oh, well, I should have been doing
Speaker 1: that from the beginning, and you know, maybe I wasn't
Speaker 1: even able to do that from the beginning. And that's
Speaker 1: why that tool presented itself to me. Now, this whole
Speaker 1: notion of having a sense of humor about my anxiety,
Speaker 1: and you know, think of it as a friend in
Speaker 1: the front seat. I mean, that's not the only thing
Speaker 1: I do for my anxiety. It is is one of
Speaker 1: the things. And so yeah, this notion that, well, let's
Speaker 1: just start there for everybody else. When I give my
Speaker 1: little advice, it's like, maybe that's something to think about,
Speaker 1: but it might not be available to someone until they're
Speaker 1: a little further along with more cognitive work. Again, I'm
Speaker 1: not a therapist. I'm just a podcaster trying to bring
Speaker 1: you so many different points of view and information to
Speaker 1: help you find the bread crumbs you need to get
Speaker 1: out of the woods of your anxiety. So here's my
Speaker 1: update on the whole subway situation. First of all, I
Speaker 1: love when I do an interview with someone and they
Speaker 1: end up helping me somehow. It happened with the Anxiety
Speaker 1: Sisters and the doctor Lawana Marquez episode and the Clare
Speaker 1: Bidwell episode and the um dr jet episode. Just you know,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I feel like a minute therapy session.
Speaker 1: But I didn't get a chance to practice yet on
Speaker 1: that subway. Now, let me explain, I'm not doing avoidance.
Speaker 1: I live and work in Brooklyn, and I really don't
Speaker 1: need to use the subway ever. Um everything I do
Speaker 1: is walking, and the subway that I would take in
Speaker 1: Brooklyn is not the one that I have that issue
Speaker 1: with anyway. Um, But I'm recording this a week in advance,
Speaker 1: so on this upcoming weekend, which will be the past
Speaker 1: for you by the time you hear this. I did
Speaker 1: have an appointment booked in Manhattan that would require me
Speaker 1: to take that train that goes over the bridge, and
Speaker 1: I ended up rescheduling the appointment only because they're supposed
Speaker 1: to potentially be a Nor Easter snowstorm this weekend and
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure, um that i want to walk
Speaker 1: to the subway in like the whipping winds and the
Speaker 1: ice and whatever, so rescheduled on account of weather. But
Speaker 1: I will get on that train at some point. But
Speaker 1: I will tell you something did happen that did give
Speaker 1: me a chance to sort of work on my de realization.
Speaker 1: I was again on the subway, different one, not the
Speaker 1: one that goes over the bridge, and I fell asleep
Speaker 1: because I if if I sit down and I'm on
Speaker 1: a train, any train, even if it smells bad, I
Speaker 1: can fall asleep. And I was reading a book, not
Speaker 1: even a kindle, an actual book that you hold in
Speaker 1: your hand, and so between that sort of relaxing thing
Speaker 1: and the train, and I'm warm, in my coat and
Speaker 1: my mask. I fell asleep and I woke up about
Speaker 1: six stops away from where I live, and it was disorienting,
Speaker 1: to say the least. And I woke up and I
Speaker 1: got off the train and it was broad daylight afternoon,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't sure where I was, and there was
Speaker 1: just something about I don't know, it's just that feeling,
Speaker 1: and I started to get feelings of de realization and
Speaker 1: I thought, Oh God, here comes a panic attack. And
Speaker 1: then I just went, Oh, I can talk about this
Speaker 1: in the podcast. Oh my god, this is so funny.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I remember when I was talking to
Speaker 1: anxiety Josh about this and then it just stopped. So
Speaker 1: I didn't even get to practice sitting with it. It
Speaker 1: stopped because I thought of this podcast. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's what would have happened on the bridge.
Speaker 1: I I think who knows. But that's the only update
Speaker 1: I can give for now. But I will put one
Speaker 1: in the corner on this one that's not even an expression. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll put one on the board for talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1: Because when you talk openly and honestly about your things
Speaker 1: that you are hiding and not really telling other people,
Speaker 1: that you're doing, and you're you're doing all these kind
Speaker 1: of anxious safety behaviors. If you speak it out loud,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, if something happens when you're out, to
Speaker 1: start doing it again where you're accountable in a way.
Speaker 1: You know. I knew I was going to have to
Speaker 1: report back to all of you, and something about that helped.
Speaker 1: Now I don't have the words for it because I'm
Speaker 1: not a therapist, but definitely definitely something about that helps.
Speaker 1: So here are the takeaways for this episode. Conventional anxiety
Speaker 1: is wearing about your job or money, for example, but
Speaker 1: internal ruminative disordered anxiety is panic attacks, obsessing, intrusive thoughts,
Speaker 1: panicking about panic, fearing, fear. The list goes on. As
Speaker 1: a therapist, Josh has to ask his clients is it
Speaker 1: a cyclical problem or is this temporary? Anxiety before a
Speaker 1: date or a job interview is normal, as we know
Speaker 1: why we are anxious, But disordered anxiety is waking up
Speaker 1: with let's say, a feeling of doom for no reason.
Speaker 1: It's all anxiety, and we still practice the same response
Speaker 1: for it. But what separates it is that the disordered
Speaker 1: anxiety is more of a fear of fear well field
Speaker 1: cortisol in the morning. It's the chemical that wakes us up.
Speaker 1: But if we misinterpreted, it becomes anxiety, and we see
Speaker 1: that doom feeling that we wake up with as an
Speaker 1: invitation to ruminate and to listen to every thought that
Speaker 1: our brain throws at us. Each time we ruminate or
Speaker 1: do a safety behavior, or you google your symptoms, you're
Speaker 1: just thinking your threat response, which adds to your anxiety.
Speaker 1: People often misinterpret that we haven't evolved past anxiety as
Speaker 1: a dysfunctional part of the brain, but we don't care anxiety.
Speaker 1: We do need it. We would be extinct without it.
Speaker 1: De Realization can be a trauma response, but mostly it's
Speaker 1: an anxious response, and it feels like you're not in
Speaker 1: the room, and objects can feel close or far away
Speaker 1: at the same time. Depersonalization feels like you're in your
Speaker 1: body but you're not. Your hands don't feel like yours.
Speaker 1: You can hear your voice, but it doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: you're talking. Your body feels discombobulated. You feel like you're
Speaker 1: walking in a dream, but you're fully awake. The three
Speaker 1: d s can happen to us when we are super
Speaker 1: tired or stressed. They are harmless and it can't hurt us,
Speaker 1: and the number one cause of a panic attack is
Speaker 1: fear of fear. Thank you again for listening to this episode.
Speaker 1: All information on the work of Anxiety Josh can be
Speaker 1: found in the links in the show notes. You can
Speaker 1: also go to Jen Kirkman dot com and click Anxiety
Speaker 1: Bites if you want to read the takeaways from every
Speaker 1: episode I've done, or just get more information about the show. Again,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening and Anxiety Bites, but you're in control.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.